Help with a character / Sadistic gm (3.5 core only)

[xanendorf]

Hi, Im in need of some help. My previous character died in a pbp game. In order for me not to be a lvl one, My GM made me play a half elf rogue 1/barbarian 1/sorcerer 1/fighter 1.

How do I become actually useful from this point? My thought was either to lvl up rogue or fighter, but having some imput will help.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, this seems weird. Why is your GM choosing the character that you play? I'm assuming that you were level 4 when you died, so either the fair thing would be to make you build a brand new level 4 character, or maybe have your old character come back somehow at level 3. But to either throw you three levels less than everyone else, or force you to play a pretty terrible build (which should be suffering terrible XP penalties for multiclassing like that), that's not cool.

If you're determined to have a respectably optimized build, you won't be able to do it with that build you just listed. But, maybe, if you start back at level 1, the bonus XP you'll get for facing higher CR encounters (if the rest of your party will help pick up the slack), then you'll level quicker and will be able to catch up with a better build than what was listed. But really, talk to your DM, and ask why you can't just build your own level 4 character. Because it's pretty lame to force you to be anything, even a good build, that you haven't chosen.

[Karnith]

(which should be suffering terrible XP penalties for multiclassing like that)
Actually, because 3.5's multiclassing rule is really horribly thought-out, that build will take no multiclass XP penalty. You need classes to have at least two levels difference between them (i.e. Barbarian 3/Fighter 1) to incur a multiclass XP penalty. As long as he keeps his classes within 1 level of each other and PrCs out before too long, it won't be an issue.

[xanendorf]

The deal was this -party was four, I died, was given the option to roll back in at a lower level. That character was kinda getting the short end of the stick when it came to loot (was the second rogue in the party) So i decided to re-roll. He said only way I could choose what I wanted to be was to be level 1, If I wanted to be level four, he had to choose.

Anyhow, whats done is done. I'm actually pretty attached to the character I'm built around those classes. I just dont know where to go from there. Also there is no xp penalty from multiclassing. We kinda just level up when he says so.

[Blackhawk748]

i would say grab Abjurant Champion, i mean you almost qualify already, and then just find another PRC you like, maybe Spellwarp Sniper, or Bladesinger?

[Karnith]

i would say grab Abjurant Champion, i mean you almost qualify already, and then just find another PRC you like, maybe Spellwarp Sniper, or Bladesinger?
Core-only, so the casting PrCs are several levels away.

[Blackhawk748]

wait..... it was core only? not sure how i missed that but w/e, then do Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, and abuse Explosive Runes on arrows, make him regret the classes he made you take!!

Edit: Also dont forget to take Polymorph and play the song One Winged Angel when you cast it and turn into a Dragon

[xanendorf]

wait..... it was core only? not sure how i missed that but w/e, then do Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight, and abuse Explosive Runes on arrows, make him regret the classes he made you take!!

Edit: Also dont forget to take Polymorph and play the song One Winged Angel when you cast it and turn into a Dragon

Feats "taken": two weapon fighting, Improved initiative, Improved unarmed strike.

As for polymorph, The game is hyper realistic, and that wouldn't fly.

[Blackhawk748]

wait what?? he made you a Sorcerer and then wont let you do one of the standard tricks under the "hyper realistic" excuse? wow. will he at least let you use Fireball?


Feats "taken": two weapon fighting, Improved initiative, Improved unarmed strike.

and these feats, what.... just what??

[xanendorf]

Fireballs good. Anything that would interfere with his npc's (dominate monster/charm person) no good. So thats why im heading for more of a melee type build.

[Blackhawk748]

wait no mind affecting effects? seriously??? to hell with it be an illusionist, imaginary damage can render them unconscious just like anything else. Actually that happened to a Manticore i was using last night, the gnome illusionist used silent image and made a bunch of wraiths attack it, makes a great distraction, and the best part if is if the creature believes the illusion it takes "damage" as if it was actually hurt. Obviously it cant die from this but it reacts accordingly

[xanendorf]

wait no mind affecting effects? seriously??? to hell with it be an illusionist, imaginary damage can render them unconscious just like anything else. Actually that happened to a Manticore i was using last night, the gnome illusionist used silent image and made a bunch of wraiths attack it, makes a great distraction, and the best part if is if the creature believes the illusion it takes "damage" as if it was actually hurt. Obviously it cant die from this but it reacts accordingly

With this dm, if there is a way that they can just ignore it/ make a will save to get past it, there is a high chance that its a no go.

example :playing a vitalist in a previous game ran by this dm. He nat 20'ed on a will save from unwilling participant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/unwilling-participant-psionic): all of its damage was sent to me for 5 rounds or something like that

Thats why Im leaning against magic.

[Blackhawk748]

ok, new plan

Step 1: buy scrolls of Disintegrate
Step 2: Blast his bosses with them
Step3: ??????
Step 4: VENGEANCE!

[eggynack]

This is sounding less like a sadistic GM, and more like a bad GM. My best advice is to run away as quickly as possible. Those feat choices are pretty generally terrible, so if you can't change the class levels, I'd advise finding out if you can change everything else. Maybe you can put together a decent chain tripper build, using the sorcerer level to give you a pre-fight enlarge person or something. The actual build, with the classes combined with the feats and the books, seems a bit on the unsalvageable side. If you can't change anything, and don't want to leave (you should), consider suicide by dragon. Maybe put together a druid of some kind, because out of every class, druids do the best in a game dominated by a crazy GM. A GM has to put in a concerted and focused effort in order to make druids less dominating, and that effort usually involves the removal of class features. Just pick up a riding dog to hide behind until you catch up, and throw out an entangle or two during combats, because those are still useful at 4th level.

[xanendorf]

This is sounding less like a sadistic GM, and more like a bad GM. My best advice is to run away as quickly as possible. Those feat choices are pretty generally terrible, so if you can't change the class levels, I'd advise finding out if you can change everything else. Maybe you can put together a decent chain tripper build, using the sorcerer level to give you a pre-fight enlarge person or something. The actual build, with the classes combined with the feats and the books, seems a bit on the unsalvageable side. If you can't change anything, and don't want to leave (you should), consider suicide by dragon. Maybe put together a druid of some kind, because out of every class, druids do the best in a game dominated by a crazy GM. A GM has to put in a concerted and focused effort in order to make druids less dominating, and that effort usually involves the removal of class features. Just pick up a riding dog to hide behind until you catch up, and throw out an entangle or two during combats, because those are still useful at 4th level.


If there isnt really a good way to fix this character, druid seems like a good idea. I need something not item (or ally) dependent because access to shops is low. The dm is very story oriented, and I know him in person, so the suicide by dragon will be hard Ie- "Why are you fighting the dragon when the real enemy is that way"
but i'm sure I can figure it out.

[Blackhawk748]

just voluntarily fail saves, then you can just die and make a druid and win with bear cavalry.

and if his story only works by taking away a large portion of the Mages tricks, it better be freakin amazing or else id be tempted to hand you a Sorcerer/Incantatrix, and tell you to go Mailman on him, cuz i sure as hell would

Edit: im gonna be honest this character looks unsalvageable with the limitations on your spells

[eggynack]

If there isnt really a good way to fix this character, druid seems like a good idea. I need something not item (or ally) dependent because access to shops is low. The dm is very story oriented, and I know him in person, so the suicide by dragon will be hard Ie- "Why are you fighting the dragon when the real enemy is that way"
but i'm sure I can figure it out.
Suicide by dragon was mostly a proxy for any suicidal tactics. Just do generally risky and ill advised things until you die horribly. Your character sucks, so most things will overpower you if you try to solo them, and if your GM is as sadistic as you say, it shouldn't take long. Anyways, druids are fun because they are super stable. As you noted, they can easily handle completely itemless games, and games with limited book access. I'd advise sticking with spells that always have an effect, like entangle. Half speed isn't the best, but it's probably the best you're going to do at first level. The best thing about this is that if the GM shuts you down on a particular spell, the cost to not prepare it the next day is minimal, and the cost to convert it to a summons is also minimal. Speaking of summons, those things are very concrete and inarguable in their workings, so you may want to rely on them at somewhat higher levels. If your GM isn't shutting down combat as well, summons should work fine. The biggest asset of a druid is the ability to adapt to any circumstance on the fly, and you should try to make full use of it.

[Blackhawk748]

just be sure to have ranks in Knowledge Nature mad History, that way your DM has no reason not to let you turn into a Dinosaur

[eggynack]

just be sure to have ranks in Knowledge Nature mad History, that way your DM has no reason not to let you turn into a Dinosaur
This is a true thing in general, though it might prove to be pointless advice in a game where polymorph is banned. Seriously, this game is butts, and those butts are dumb. It seems like every element of it, on an individual level, is separately dumb. You're friends with the guy, so running away might be tricky, but you should probably find a way. Killing yourself and going druid would basically be my plan B if plan A isn't something you want to do.

[xanendorf]

Ok thanks guys. Druid seems like a safe bet. I had hoped there was a salvageable character in that mess.

[TheSunKing]

:smallannoyed:

The DM just sounds mean. Why not let you make your own character? If I were you I'd just stop playing altogether, given the terrible choices given.

[eggynack]

Ok thanks guys. Druid seems like a safe bet. I had hoped there was a salvageable character in that mess.
It's close to workable, but there are just too many issues with it. Fighter 1/barbarian 1 can be great if you have ACF's, but it's not as good without splat book access. Rogue 1 is pretty mediocre, but it's not the worst thing in the world. The sorcerer level is just crazy, especially in this ridiculous casting context. If it were a cleric with devotion access, or a wizard with abrupt jaunt access, that'd be a different story, but the core only nature of things complicates things. Finally, the feat list is just a generally unfocused mess, and that's generally the place where I'd start stacking together a build if levels are off the table. The lack of readily available magic items means that you can't even cheese out your WBL. I just don't see where I'd start with this, because most of the build's features appear to be set in stone.

[Sith_Happens]

I suggest learning Expeditious Retreat and using it to run the hell away from this campaign.

[Alienist]

Ok thanks guys. Druid seems like a safe bet. I had hoped there was a salvageable character in that mess.

I think you gave up far too easily.

Barbarian -> get a big 2 handed weapon, low armour
Rogue -> adds backstabbery, low armour
Fighter -> take the alternate class features for yet more backstabby goodness, at the expense of armour

Sorcerer -> Mage Armour + Shield = oh look, I have a really good AC now. How did that happen? // pinky in corner of mouth

If you can, one of your feats should be practiced spellcaster.

Also, True Strike + Power Attack + 2 handed weapon = dead whatever.

Also, you'll have really good saves against everything.

You're a raging barbarian with a two handed weapon so you'll deal obscene amounts of damage.
Any time you have flanking, you'll deal even more obscene amounts of damage. IF you really want to rub it in, take something silly like a two handed scythe, so that if you backstab and roll a crit your level 4 character will roll about fifty dice for damage.

Rogue 1 + Barbarian 1 + Fighter 1 is pretty damn close to Conan 3.

So basically, you're Conan plus a dollop of the most broken thing in the game (spell casting) on top.

How can you not love that?

[eggynack]

I think you gave up far too easily.

Barbarian -> get a big 2 handed weapon, low armour
Rogue -> adds backstabbery, low armour
Fighter -> take the alternate class features for yet more backstabby goodness, at the expense of armour

Sorcerer -> Mage Armour + Shield = oh look, I have a really good AC now. How did that happen? // pinky in corner of mouth

If you can, one of your feats should be practiced spellcaster.

Also, True Strike + Power Attack + 2 handed weapon = dead whatever.

Also, you'll have really good saves against everything.

You're a raging barbarian with a two handed weapon so you'll deal obscene amounts of damage.
Any time you have flanking, you'll deal even more obscene amounts of damage. IF you really want to rub it in, take something silly like a two handed scythe, so that if you backstab and roll a crit your level 4 character will roll about fifty dice for damage.

Rogue 1 + Barbarian 1 + Fighter 1 is pretty damn close to Conan 3.

So basically, you're Conan plus a dollop of the most broken thing in the game (spell casting) on top.

How can you not love that?
That'd all be very nice if it were possible. In fact, I would have suggested it in that case. It doesn't seem anywhere near possible though. First of all, exactly none of his feats are focused in two handed fighting, so he'd have to pick up start picking up these feats at level six. This also includes practiced spell caster, which is decidedly not core. This gets me to the second issue, which is that many of these options are not core. ACF's don't appear to be available, and even if they did, this character hasn't taken them. Power attack+true strike is a very nice combination, but it's not one that he has access to, because he doesn't have power attack. I'm also not entirely sure that the OP got the opportunity to choose his own spells known, so that could be a problem as well. If you want to claim that this character is salvageable, go right ahead, but do it on the basis of the actual character, rather than one with full access to everything. I doubt that this GM is going to be lenient on any of these matters, based upon what I know of him from the thread.

[Alienist]

That'd all be very nice if it were possible. In fact, I would have suggested it in that case. It doesn't seem anywhere near possible though. First of all, exactly none of his feats are focused in two handed fighting, so he'd have to pick up start picking up these feats at level six. This also includes practiced spell caster, which is decidedly not core. This gets me to the second issue, which is that many of these options are not core. ACF's don't appear to be available, and even if they did, this character hasn't taken them. Power attack+true strike is a very nice combination, but it's not one that he has access to, because he doesn't have power attack. I'm also not entirely sure that the OP got the opportunity to choose his own spells known, so that could be a problem as well. If you want to claim that this character is salvageable, go right ahead, but do it on the basis of the actual character, rather than one with full access to everything. I doubt that this GM is going to be lenient on any of these matters, based upon what I know of him from the thread.

Allow me to repeat the conclusion of my thesis. You're Conan plus the most broken thing in the game.

If you can't make a good character from that, laying the blame at the DM's feet is misattributing the cause of the problem.

[eggynack]

Allow me to repeat the conclusion of my thesis. You're Conan plus the most broken thing in the game.

If you can't make a good character from that, laying the blame at the DM's feet is misattributing the cause of the problem.
Your list of suggestions assumed that the OP has access to a massive amount of things he doesn't have access to. He might as well have no feats, there is presumably a massive limit on magic items from the OP's description of the game, his spells known were likely prechosen, and if they weren't, a good number of them have been said to just not work, and he's running around with two BAB under good. That last one doesn't sound like much, but he'd actually have the exact same amount as a frigging straight wizard. You're "Conan", in the sense that you're a barbarian that's far worse at fighting than similarly leveled fighting guys. You're "The most broken thing in the game", in the sense you have ridiculously reduced spell access compared to actual casters, and apparently broad limitations even after accounting for that. His feats can not be practiced spell caster and power attack. He can't take whirling frenzy, pounce, improved trip, craven, or anything really. If you're going to state a thesis, support it with what actually exists. If I built a fighter/barbarian/rogue/sorcerer with full book access, it'd probably turn out alright. That is not where we are right now.

[Alienist]

Your list of suggestions assumed that the OP has access to a massive amount of things he doesn't have access to. He might as well have no feats, there is presumably a massive limit on magic items from the OP's description of the game, his spells known were likely prechosen, and if they weren't, a good number of them have been said to just not work, and he's running around with two BAB under good. That last one doesn't sound like much, but he'd actually have the exact same amount as a frigging straight wizard. You're "Conan", in the sense that you're a barbarian that's far worse at fighting than similarly leveled fighting guys. You're "The most broken thing in the game", in the sense you have ridiculously reduced spell access compared to actual casters, and apparently broad limitations even after accounting for that. His feats can not be practiced spell caster and power attack. He can't take whirling frenzy, pounce, improved trip, craven, or anything really. If you're going to state a thesis, support it with what actually exists. If I built a fighter/barbarian/rogue/sorcerer with full book access, it'd probably turn out alright. That is not where we are right now.

Perish the thought that you might acquire Power Attack when you level up.

[eggynack]

Perish the thought that you might acquire Power Attack when you level up.
At level six? Seriously? That a pretty big distance away from where he is now, and in the meantime he's working with a pretty terrible character. If he's only coming into his own in two levels anyway, what's the point in not suiciding into a druid? The character as it exists is pretty terrible. Even if I did want to push the casting aspect, I certainly wouldn't do it with a sorcerer. The risk of being told that your spell doesn't work as you'd expect, or doesn't work at all, is far too high. Druids are good, because druids adapt. This GM is absolutely terrible, and when things are tossed into disarray by a terrible GM, you need to be able to adapt. Fighters can not adapt, and neither can sorcerers, rogues, and barbarians. I probably wouldn't run anything but a druid in this guy's campaign, based on what I know about it.

[Karnith]

At level six? Seriously?
He can take his second level of Fighter and get Power Attack as a Fighter bonus feat at his next level-up, assuming he gets to make his own choices. Granted that getting there sounds painful, but he doesn't need to wait that long to get it.

[eggynack]

He can take his second level of Fighter and get Power Attack as a Fighter bonus feat at his next level-up, assuming he gets to make his own choices. Granted that getting there sounds painful, but he doesn't need to wait that long to get it.
I suppose that's true. Still, the difference between level four and level five is 4,000 XP, which is enough to get you from level one to three. You'd also be getting quite a bit more XP than you would in the fourth level form. It all adds up to druidicide being a better option.

[Alienist]

I suppose that's true. Still, the difference between level four and level five is 4,000 XP, which is enough to get you from level one to three. You'd also be getting quite a bit more XP than you would in the fourth level form. It all adds up to druidicide being a better option.

Also, I heard that feat retraining was a thing.

You seem to be confused about a point of semantics. The original question wasn't "how can I achieve ultimate power", the question was "is this character salvageable".

Now you might personally subscribe to a theory that anything less than tier 1 isn't "playable", whether you do or not it seems clear that's your yardstick here. In which case, the answer is clear. Absolutely reroll as a tier one character.

However, if the OP is willing to entertain the possibility of playing a mundane/melee character spiced up with a sprinkling of magic, then yes, the character is absolutely salvageable.

[Allanimal]

I suppose that's true. Still, the difference between level four and level five is 4,000 XP, which is enough to get you from level one to three. You'd also be getting quite a bit more XP than you would in the fourth level form. It all adds up to druidicide being a better option.

Assuming of course the DM follows the XP rules. The way this DM follows the other rules gives me the feeling the Druid will be permanently 3 levels behind. Which isn't horrible for a Druid but definitely not ideal.



Also, I heard that feat retraining was a thing.

In core?

[Killer Angel]

just voluntarily fail saves, then you can just die and make a druid and win with bear cavalry.


I don't think it will work.
After all, "As for polymorph, The game is hyper realistic, and that wouldn't fly", so I tend to believe that anything that involves shapechanging druids will end poorly.
And the summoning line, could be simply not available as its full potential, if the DM becomes annoyed by bears' waves or sharknadoes.

[Urpriest]

Things we know:

The DM just levels everyone up whenever they want.

Some spells don't work, or work differently. OP, it would be really really nice to get a list of these. I know your DM is obtuse about this, but you should be able to ask "So sometimes spells work differently from how I expect them to. Could I get your list of houserules?"

The DM gave you Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. That means that either the DM is ok with you using Two-Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Strikes, or that your DM is a fathead. While the second is likely true, the first might be true as well. Ask! (Ask in such a way as to flatter the DM's ego: "So, it looks like you set the character up to use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. That's cool, I never would have thought of that! Could you explain how that works?")

One level of Sorceror means you can qualify for Dragon Disciple, which is actually not so bad in Core. I'd grab another level of Fighter (though if you don't have enough ranks in Knowlege (Arcana), take another level of Sorceror (class skill) or Rogue (lots of skill points) instead). Then, take four levels of Dragon Disciple, enough for the strength boosts to kick in. You can take one more level for Blindsense or another for a Con boost, but that's less important. Past there, take a second level of Fighter if you haven't already, then take Barbarian, for more Rage uses and a capstone of Greater Rage. Note that if you don't expect to get that far (generally speaking, immature and childish DMs like yours can't keep campaigns going all the way to 20) you might want to go for more Fighter or Rogue levels instead.

You have Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. It may be that your DM has some arbitrary and silly ruling on this, but if not the RAW is that you can use Two-Weapon Fighting with a two-handed weapon and an unarmed strike, so do that! Grab a Greatsword, grab Power Attack when you can, and add in an Unarmed Strike on the side for a net -2 to all attacks.

Once you get claws and bite from Dragon Disciple, get the Multiattack feat. Consider dropping your Greatsword and Unarmed Strike routine and just using the claws and bite until your BAB improves, you'll have to crunch the numbers on any given level to see which choice is better. Note that you can make attacks with greatsword, unarmed strikes, and bite, or with unarmed strikes, claws, and bite, but in those cases the claws and bite will both take a penalty due to being secondary natural weapons.

Of course, none of this really matters because your DM is childish and spiteful. To deal with that, consider whether you really want to be in the campaign. If you do, you'll need to learn how to manipulate your DM OOC more than how to optimize your character IC.

[Feint's End]

Honestly that is bad DMing. Did your Dm forget is is a Game and is supposed to be fun? I mean ... your "friend" is screwing with you. Playing a Character he made is one thing but building a bad Character with almost no synergy and telling you "you play that now or you gonna start all over again (oh.... you also gonna be 3 levels behind almost all the time)" is just a ****move.

Ask him to look at this Thread. Ask him why he does that ... why he doesn't let you have fun if it is fun for you to play another class. It just makes me sad how many bad Dms out there spend time actively annoying and ruining their players time (not that some players are any better). I myself was a bad Dm sometimes ages ago but at some point he just has to realize it's a game where people are supposed to have fun and Dms are no better or more important than any of their players (meaning that the Players also should have a right to give their input).

From my own experience I know that a lot of Dms in their early stages (in my closer group of friends everyone had some issues as a starter Dm) tend to railroad, ban because something is "op" (don't get me wrong .... if you ban something because of consistency or because it doesn't fit the campagin it's totally ok) or worse ... are immature in addition to being inexperienced and try to actively annoy their players (And I would know because that's something I did).

Talk to him. That's my best suggestion for you. And if he doesn't listen ... offer to Dm yourself or look for another group though I could understand you don't want to do that. If nothing else helps roll up a new Character at Level 1 and beg him to let you level up faster so you catch up eventually. And play Druid ... he has to screw with 3 of your classfeatures to render you useless.
If you want to play throught his Campaign do so and talk afterwards to him first and if he doesn't listen talk to the other players ... offer to Dm for the next campaign and tell them what you honestly think about his style as the Dm ... if he really is a friend he will appreciate your feedback.

[Randomguy]

Did he at least let you choose your own spells known? If he did, get self buffs like Mage Armour, Shield and maybe Enlarge Person.

I'm liking Urpriest's idea. For now use TWF with a greatsword and an unarmed strike, flank and sneak attack when you can and go into Dragon Disciple as soon as you can.

[Lord Haart]

The character is definitely salvageable. The enviroment he's supposed to exist in? Doesn't seem so.

[Blackhawk748]

i actually didnt realize you could TWF with a two handed weapon, and it makes sense, your probably kicking the guy lol and i totally forgot about the Dragon Disciple lol doesnt it get wings at some point?

[Karnith]

i totally forgot about the Dragon Disciple lol doesnt it get wings at some point?
It does, but at level 9, which is generally well past when you want to keep taking levels in Dragon Disciple.

[denthor]

Spell selection for your sorrcerror class:


Shield: No magic missle attacks +4 to a/c

Mage armor +4 to ac good against undead

If you can get a third spell Enlarge or

color spray(death loves rainbows) or cause fear this will scare away up to orges on a missed save or take everything down for one round -2

[eggynack]

Also, I heard that feat retraining was a thing.

You seem to be confused about a point of semantics. The original question wasn't "how can I achieve ultimate power", the question was "is this character salvageable".

Now you might personally subscribe to a theory that anything less than tier 1 isn't "playable", whether you do or not it seems clear that's your yardstick here. In which case, the answer is clear. Absolutely reroll as a tier one character.

However, if the OP is willing to entertain the possibility of playing a mundane/melee character spiced up with a sprinkling of magic, then yes, the character is absolutely salvageable.
Even if feat retraining were in this game, which it probably isn't because the game is core, you'd still need to wait a level to use it. It's utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. As is, the build is a poorly constructed melee and magic hybrid with no feats. That's not tier one, but it's also not tier four. It's probably at the low end of five, actually. I don't know if it slips into six, but at these extremely low optimization levels, it certainly might. That's not playable in my book. The other problem is that a lot of low tier tactics lock the OP into one trick, and this DM has a substantial chance of heavily nerfing that one trick and stopping the OP from retraining. He seems like a really bad GM in that way, which is why I advised running away. I'm not saying that non-tier ones are unplayable in general. I'm saying that I think non-tier ones are unplayable in this campaign.

[Scow2]

Even if feat retraining were in this game, which it probably isn't because the game is core, you'd still need to wait a level to use it. It's utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. As is, the build is a poorly constructed melee and magic hybrid with no feats. That's not tier one, but it's also not tier four. It's probably at the low end of five, actually. I don't know if it slips into six, but at these extremely low optimization levels, it certainly might. That's not playable in my book. The other problem is that a lot of low tier tactics lock the OP into one trick, and this DM has a substantial chance of heavily nerfing that one trick and stopping the OP from retraining. He seems like a really bad GM in that way, which is why I advised running away. I'm not saying that non-tier ones are unplayable in general. I'm saying that I think non-tier ones are unplayable in this campaign.

Depending on the threats around, you may have things exactly opposite. Giving the DM the benefit of the doubt, he's trying to force Low Op/Low Tier, so that it's the Tier One's that are unplayable, and the Tier 5s have chances to shine. Unless the DM's as bad as he's coming across.

[eggynack]

Depending on the threats around, you may have things exactly opposite. Giving the DM the benefit of the doubt, he's trying to force Low Op/Low Tier, so that it's the Tier One's that are unplayable, and the Tier 5s have chances to shine. Unless the DM's as bad as he's coming across.
You may have a point. Still, as I noted, druids can adapt to a pretty high amount of DM attacks. I don't really see how we can give him the benefit of the doubt, given that he banned mind control spells so that his NPC's would always do exactly what he wants, and that he banned polymorph because it's too unrealistic. I don't understand that one. Druids can actually just bypass all of the listed nerfs and then some. I probably wouldn't play a wizard, because they're reliant on a modicum of GM support, but druids can just roam free. If monsters always make their saves, well you'll just have to buff and summon even more. It feels a lot like I'd pick up power attack, and then the GM would decide that it's overpowered, and cut it down to a 1:1 on two handed weapons. I can't say that it will happen, but it might happen, and I'd want some backup options in case it does. Druids can do that. Fighters can not.

[Rubik]

Ghosts are core. Roll up a 1st level character and die. Come back with the ghost template. Now you're nigh invulnerable.

Or be a druid. Now you're a 1st level character with a 2nd level (replaceable) cohort, and you can stand back while casting spells.

[Zanos]

After reading the OP's post this gaming environment seems extremely toxic. It's unlikely you're super invested in this campaign since the party is only level 4 so I'd just bail.

And he made you play a Half-Elf. The DM must be trying to gimp your character on purpose.

[Rubik]

After reading the OP's post this gaming environment seems extremely toxic. It's unlikely you're super invested in this campaign since the party is only level 4 so I'd just bail.

And he made you play a Half-Elf. The DM must be trying to gimp your character on purpose.Honestly, this is probably the best thing to do. Better to bail on the game than potentially ruin your friendships through frustration and anger.

Otherwise, ghost-druid.

[eggynack]

Honestly, this is probably the best thing to do. Better to bail on the game than potentially ruin your friendships through frustration and anger.

Otherwise, ghost-druid.
That's about how I figured it. Ghosts have more LA than their level, so that part might cause problems, but the general idea is an agreeable one. Any druid related solution is strictly a plan B after casting expeditious retreat. The plan involving sticking with the current character is probably plan C, and I consider it inadvisable.

[Threadnaught]

This is sounding less like a sadistic GM, and more like a bad GM.

Wait. They're mutually exclusive? :smallconfused:


Now you might personally subscribe to a theory that anything less than tier 1 isn't "playable", whether you do or not it seems clear that's your yardstick here.

Problem: It's not even a Tier 5 Character.


You seem to be confused about a point of semantics. The original question wasn't "how can I achieve ultimate power", the question was "is this character salvageable".

Let's see Half Elf Rogue1, Barbarian1, Sorceror1 and Fighter1 with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative and Improved Unarmed Strike as the chosen Feats. In a game where Magic is pointless because the DM bleats about "realism" wanting a Hyper Realistic game.
No ACFs, no Feat Retraining, no salvaging this character at all.


However, if the OP is willing to entertain the possibility of playing a mundane/melee character spiced up with a sprinkling of magic, then yes, the character is absolutely salvageable.

Magic isn't exactly realistic. The character is built for Sneak Attacking while Dual Wielding their fists and angry... With a level's worth of a d4 HD.

Well actually, since the game is supposed to be Hyper Realistic, I don't really see Improved Unarmed Strike doing anything useful, Sneak Attack is likely to be disallowed and Rage? This isn't some Marvel comic y'know. This is D&D. What makes you think people can get stronger, just because they got angry?

[Soupz]

We kinda just level up when he says so.

Leave the campaign. If you're not happy with your character and your DM isn't helping you modify things or create a new viable character then leave. I think it's even stated in the DMG that you shouldn't force a player to play a character they're not happy with.

[Spuddles]

If there isnt really a good way to fix this character, druid seems like a good idea. I need something not item (or ally) dependent because access to shops is low. The dm is very story oriented, and I know him in person, so the suicide by dragon will be hard Ie- "Why are you fighting the dragon when the real enemy is that way"
but i'm sure I can figure it out.

"very story oriented"- the defense bad gms everywhere use.

"story oriented"- it's the song of their people. A roundabout way of saying "I don't like player agency"

[Spuddles]

My advice to you is to be as disruptive as possible until you get kicked out. Try and take as many other players with you.

The following is merely academic, given your build.

Your next legel ought to be sorcerer, as it you will get another spell known and +1 BAB. Thay next spell known should be true strike. Your two spells known would ideally be true strike and mage armor because I doubt your DM will give you any items worth using.

Dragon Disciple and/or Eldritch Knight would make for your best long term goals. Eldritch Knight can get you some pretty great buffs.

As a fighting style, I would grab power attack and transition into two handed fighting as your rogue sneak attack dice become less relevant.


At level six? Seriously? That a pretty big distance away from where he is now, and in the meantime he's working with a pretty terrible character. If he's only coming into his own in two levels anyway, what's the point in not suiciding into a druid? The character as it exists is pretty terrible. Even if I did want to push the casting aspect, I certainly wouldn't do it with a sorcerer. The risk of being told that your spell doesn't work as you'd expect, or doesn't work at all, is far too high. Druids are good, because druids adapt. This GM is absolutely terrible, and when things are tossed into disarray by a terrible GM, you need to be able to adapt. Fighters can not adapt, and neither can sorcerers, rogues, and barbarians. I probably wouldn't run anything but a druid in this guy's campaign, based on what I know about it.

Power attack is only good in core only at low levels if you are using it as a pre-req for cleave.

Grabbing it at 6 is actually pretty optimal. Improved unarm strike and twf, not so much. Of course, glaive + twf armor spike works out pretty nice. Just five foot step in to finish the attack routine.

[eggynack]

Power attack is only good in core only at low levels if you are using it as a pre-req for cleave.

Grabbing it at 6 is actually pretty optimal. Improved unarm strike and twf, not so much. Of course, glaive + twf armor spike works out pretty nice. Just five foot step in to finish the attack routine.
I suppose. The point, however, is that he doesn't really have any feats. That includes power attack, which might not be an issue, but it also includes everything else, like improved trip, combat reflexes, EWP: spiked chain, and whatever else he might want to pull together. Any optimization strategy that requires the use of feats is basically pointless, because the build currently doesn't have any to work with. Also, it's a different situation by a little bit, but when I was running the statistics on a d20 SRD barbarian build with power attack, pushing points into power attack often represented an increase in damage against equal CR opponents, and that was at these low levels. Granted, that was an optimized barbarian build with maximized strength, but I don't think that entirely dismissing power attack at low levels is a correct assessment. You should do a few run throughs on the power attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) and see for yourself.

[Spuddles]

Power attacking at low levels is only useful if you can expect to make enough attacks that damage approaches average. Against most humanoid enemies (elves, orcs, hobgoblins, lizardmen), a couple whacks of 2d6+4 will drop the enemy. Unfortunately, you're also only a couple 1d8+2 whacks away from being dropped yourself. I would rather end the encounter 2 rounds faster with 5-10% increased accuracy than the average 0.5 to 1.0 points of average damage power attack nets you.

If the distribution of attack rolls wasn't flat, I would agree that power attack would work better at low levels. Due to the extremely high variability of d20 combat, power attack at low levels isn't worth it, as combat isn't really about who does the most damage, but who lands the most attacks soonest.

This is mostly the case for levels 3 and lower and enemies with HD = CR. Power attack gets pretty good past then, esp. vs. giants, animals, and magical beasts, and if you can optimize your strength score. Raging full blooded orc is a DPR machine.

[TuggyNE]

Power attacking at low levels is only useful if you can expect to make enough attacks that damage approaches average. Against most humanoid enemies (elves, orcs, hobgoblins, lizardmen), a couple whacks of 2d6+4 will drop the enemy. Unfortunately, you're also only a couple 1d8+2 whacks away from being dropped yourself. I would rather end the encounter 2 rounds faster with 5-10% increased accuracy than the average 0.5 to 1.0 points of average damage power attack nets you.

If the distribution of attack rolls wasn't flat, I would agree that power attack would work better at low levels. Due to the extremely high variability of d20 combat, power attack at low levels isn't worth it, as combat isn't really about who does the most damage, but who lands the most attacks soonest.

This is mostly the case for levels 3 and lower and enemies with HD = CR. Power attack gets pretty good past then, esp. vs. giants, animals, and magical beasts, and if you can optimize your strength score. Raging full blooded orc is a DPR machine.

Hmm. This seems like a thing that should be calculated out carefully. I will edit this post later with calculations and conclusions therefrom.

[Spuddles]

Hmm. This seems like a thing that should be calculated out carefully. I will edit this post later with calculations and conclusions therefrom.

I expect my feelings involve a great deal of confirmation bias, but I'd love to see the numbers run out.

[eggynack]

This doesn't seem too hard to check out, at least on a basic level. The power attack calculator runs over a range of AC's, so you can check that whole range of damage values for a given character against a range of monsters. For example, for a regular guy with +1 BAB, 18 strength, and a greatsword, power attacking for one gives a damage bump until you hit 19 AC. On the next level, you get the best damage bump for fully power attacking, until 18 where you do it for one, until 20 when you stop. There is probably an equitable set up that would test the ideal power attack level pretty easily.

[TuggyNE]

OK, methodology: for each of several CR 4 melee monsters, use Power Attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) to determine best damage rate for the AC. Then, compare mean, minimum, and maximum rounds to kill that monster while Power Attacking at that rate with, well, not. (No attempt will be made to determine the effect, if any, of whatever feat you might take instead of Power Attack.) The PC will have a +1 greatsword (conveniently avoiding the gargoyle's DR/magic), WF: Greatsword, and 18 Str.

Behold the results (http://anydice.com/program/268f/at_most/graph)! Upshot: gargoyle drops in 3 rounds or less 62% of the time with PA vs 38% without; harpy drops in 2 50% with vs 23% without; minotaur drops in 3 79% with vs 53% without; a partially-statted human fighter (chain mail, 14 Dex, 14 Con, no shield) drops in 3 64% vs 50%; an elf wizard 4 (16 Dex, 12 Con, mage armor and shield) drops in 2 53% vs 40%; in fact, an elf fighter with the same stats as the human except for 2 lower Con is the only exception, dropping in 3 rounds 64% of the time against 75%.

So locally optimal Power Attack usage is generally also globally optimal, barring unusual quirks of precise HP figures (all optimization algorithms have pathological cases, after all). What's more, the difference can be fairly significant even at level 4.

[Etrivar]

This is sounding less like a sadistic GM, and more like a bad GM. My best advice is to run away as quickly as possible.

^ THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. There is NO role-playing experience worth putting up with a DM as overbearing and micromanagingly restrictive as your's seems to be. This is a lesson it took me far too long to learn. I understand that this issue can get muddied where friendships are involved, but, unless your DM is wildly more competant and easy-going in other areas of DM'ing that we haven't mentioned here, stepping out from under that kind of demanding, unreasonable approach and attitude will be a breath of fresh air, I promise you.

Do yourself a favor, and leave this group. If the ultimatum he foisted upon you is symptomatic of how he treats the others in your group, and they are chafing under this brand of DM'ing (I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't at least somewhat masochistic wouldn't), take them with you. Then strike out in search of a new group/DM. Head to your local gaming shop, look on the RPG bulletin board (almost all of them have one), and find a new group/DM. It seems like it would be pretty difficult to do worse than what you have now, DM-wise, so this should be a relatively safe process for you.

Best of luck and Godspeed.

[Daebu]

Also, I heard that feat retraining was a thing.

You seem to be confused about a point of semantics. The original question wasn't "how can I achieve ultimate power", the question was "is this character salvageable".

Now you might personally subscribe to a theory that anything less than tier 1 isn't "playable", whether you do or not it seems clear that's your yardstick here. In which case, the answer is clear. Absolutely reroll as a tier one character.

However, if the OP is willing to entertain the possibility of playing a mundane/melee character spiced up with a sprinkling of magic, then yes, the character is absolutely salvageable.

Straw Man. And after reading your last couple posts I had to check post-history to make sure you weren't just a troll.

Based on statements, at no point was the person you were responding to trying to generate "ultimate power", or even tier 1. This character isn't even tier 5, and will have difficulty contributing anything.

"Conan plus the most broken thing in the game" is transparently bordering on trolling, as it's obious from the rest of the posting that it's not possible. Thinking it's ok for any DM to say "no you don't get to create a character unless it's a full 3 levels behind" is enabling **** behaviour.

Retraining is out as it's core only, or did you not read that? Any of the ACF's needed to be "Conan" would be out as they're also not core. Stop trying to make others out to be munchkins when it's evident you didn't even read the first post completely.

[Novawurmson]

I'll try saying this several ways:

1. Your DM is an arrogant control-freak. This campaign is merely a sad attempt to scrape every last fragment of power he can to himself. This is not a game, this is "Boost the DM's Ego Time." Leave the campaign as soon as possible. Politely, leave the campaign, but leave the campaign.

2. In .gif form:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbo6kyreOf1ri1bqgo1_500.gif

or

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb6tbimr5w1qmr10ro1_500.gif

3. In song form (http://youtu.be/ISvMS6s41vY?t=20s)(YouTube link).

[Harlot]

If you REALLY, REALLY want to stay in the group, choose option B and be a level 1 character of your own choice. As you're just three levels behind, you'll catch up fairly fast.

[Rubik]

If you REALLY, REALLY want to stay in the group, choose option B and be a level 1 character of your own choice. As you're just three levels behind, you'll catch up fairly fast.And choose one that won't get in the thick of things for awhile, or is tough as all get-out (hard to do in Core-only). Get the XP without getting hit.

[eggynack]

And choose one that won't get in the thick of things for awhile, or is tough as all get-out (hard to do in Core-only). Get the XP without getting hit.
The answer, as always, is the druid. They're simultaneously pretty tough, and can hang out in the back ranks. In a game with full book access, a wizard with abrupt jaunt would be a feasible option. but that's obviously not the situation we're in. Additionally, like the fighter and sorcerer, wizards in this game risk having their ability to function stripped away at the whims of this crazy DM. Magic shops are scarce, which limits spell access, and the spells that are chosen might just be spontaneously house ruled not to work. The druid is probably the best option for successfully dealing with crazy DM's. They're incredibly hard to shut down, even if you put in a concerted effort.

[Rubik]

The answer, as always, is the druid. They're simultaneously pretty tough, and can hang out in the back ranks. In a game with full book access, a wizard with abrupt jaunt would be a feasible option. but that's obviously not the situation we're in. Additionally, like the fighter and sorcerer, wizards in this game risk having their ability to function stripped away at the whims of this crazy DM. Magic shops are scarce, which limits spell access, and the spells that are chosen might just be spontaneously house ruled not to work. The druid is probably the best option for successfully dealing with crazy DM's. They're incredibly hard to shut down, even if you put in a concerted effort.This is true, and it's why I suggested it earlier.

I wonder how a druid ghost would work out. Possess your enemies, turn into a giant bear, and eat face.

[Spuddles]

If you REALLY, REALLY want to stay in the group, choose option B and be a level 1 character of your own choice. As you're just three levels behind, you'll catch up fairly fast.


And choose one that won't get in the thick of things for awhile, or is tough as all get-out (hard to do in Core-only). Get the XP without getting hit.

Except the DM doesn't hand out xp in this game, he just informs players when they're allowed to level their characters.


OK, methodology: for each of several CR 4 melee monsters, use Power Attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) to determine best damage rate for the AC. Then, compare mean, minimum, and maximum rounds to kill that monster while Power Attacking at that rate with, well, not. (No attempt will be made to determine the effect, if any, of whatever feat you might take instead of Power Attack.) The PC will have a +1 greatsword (conveniently avoiding the gargoyle's DR/magic), WF: Greatsword, and 18 Str.

Behold the results (http://anydice.com/program/268f/at_most/graph)! Upshot: gargoyle drops in 3 rounds or less 62% of the time with PA vs 38% without; harpy drops in 2 50% with vs 23% without; minotaur drops in 3 79% with vs 53% without; a partially-statted human fighter (chain mail, 14 Dex, 14 Con, no shield) drops in 3 64% vs 50%; an elf wizard 4 (16 Dex, 12 Con, mage armor and shield) drops in 2 53% vs 40%; in fact, an elf fighter with the same stats as the human except for 2 lower Con is the only exception, dropping in 3 rounds 64% of the time against 75%.

So locally optimal Power Attack usage is generally also globally optimal, barring unusual quirks of precise HP figures (all optimization algorithms have pathological cases, after all). What's more, the difference can be fairly significant even at level 4.

Wow, interesting. I went in and halved everything's HP and shaved a few points off to hit, and PA had a 3-20% greater chance of killing something a round earlier than no PA.

[eggynack]

This is true, and it's why I suggested it earlier.

I wonder how a druid ghost would work out. Possess your enemies, turn into a giant bear, and eat face.
Indeed, as did I. I just like druids. On the other note, isn't ghost rather prohibitively expensive? In general, I define prohibitively expensive as anything which takes you away from more druid, because more druid is almost always better.

[Rubik]

Indeed, as did I. I just like druids. On the other note, isn't ghost rather prohibitively expensive? In general, I define prohibitively expensive as anything which takes you away from more druid, because more druid is almost always better.If the DM just randomly decides when to level the characters, and he's decided to be nasty and force the player to EITHER be a useless gimp or a 1st level OHKO, something makes me think that the OP will be stuck at several levels behind the rest of the group for the entirety of his career. Having near-invulnerability will offset that by a HUGE amount, since ghosts are almost impossible to kill when possessing a body, and are impossible to permanently destroy, Core-only. And being ethereal and incorporeal, even taking damage will be a rare occurrance.

[Spuddles]

Plus being a ghost gives you ultimate troll potential.

[Rubik]

Plus being a ghost gives you ultimate troll potential.This is especially apt if you possess a troll.

[eggynack]

If the DM just randomly decides when to level the characters, and he's decided to be nasty and force the player to EITHER be a useless gimp or a 1st level OHKO, something makes me think that the OP will be stuck at several levels behind the rest of the group for the entirety of his career. Having near-invulnerability will offset that by a HUGE amount, since ghosts are almost impossible to kill when possessing a body, and are impossible to permanently destroy, Core-only. And being ethereal and incorporeal, even taking damage will be a rare occurrance.
I suppose. I don't remember if the OP said anything specific about the leveling system though. It feels a lot like we just did jerk extrapolation, which is a valid line of inquiry, but possibly not a perfectly accurate one. We also don't know how they use LA, so a ghost druid might just not be possible. If he's starting at level one, I would assume that LA isn't a part of that, and if you're using a progression of some kind, you're basically being hit by the LA in the exact way that a normal druid would be. It's a complicated issue, and your plan requires a lot of things to work how you'd like them to work. If they do work the way you want them to, ghost is probably a fine choice, but it's not something I'd like to assume.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly id say Barbarian or maybe Fighter, Druid is epic dont get me wrong, but i have a feeling that the DM wont let him Wildshape, and most of his spells will probably be nerfed, id say go Half Orc Barbarian, grab shadowdancer and then spontaneously appear behind the enemy and behead him, or go Dwarf Fighter and take Dwarven Defender, the amount of defense you get is awesome. a buddy of mine loves this PrC

[Boci]

3. In song form (YouTube link).

Seriously? You couldn't have picked a song that isn't meant to raise awareness of the physical and worse abuse of minor?

[Spuddles]

Seriously? You couldn't have picked a song that isn't meant to raise awareness of the physical and worse abuse of minor?

http://snippetysnippet.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/kids.jpg

[Boci]

Of course, please accept my humble apologize for finding it distastful to bring a song about pedophilia, domestic abuse and neglect of children and murder of a child into a discussion about someone being a jerk in a game. Its not as if there aren't 100 other songs that have a similar title/chorus that would have worked just as well.

[eggynack]

Honestly id say Barbarian or maybe Fighter, Druid is epic dont get me wrong, but i have a feeling that the DM wont let him Wildshape, and most of his spells will probably be nerfed, id say go Half Orc Barbarian, grab shadowdancer and then spontaneously appear behind the enemy and behead him, or go Dwarf Fighter and take Dwarven Defender, the amount of defense you get is awesome. a buddy of mine loves this PrC
This seems like a terrible idea, partially because dwarven defender is a terrible class. It gives you virtually nothing towards the goal of defense, because the dwarven defender gives the enemy no reason to engage the him, and he's forced to stay in one place. It is a class with a high cost and a low gain.

The larger issue has to do with the general nature of melee. Let's say that you go with tripping as your one good trick. It's a perfectly valid melee style, and it's probably what I'd go with. Now, let's say that the GM decides that tripping is overpowered, and nerfs it somehow. Maybe you can't trip on AoO's, or standing doesn't provoke, or all of your enemies become huge. The specifics are irrelevant. What does captain McTrippy do now? The answer is nothing. He had a trick, and it was shut down, and now he has no tricks.

Now, let's try that with the druid. On the first day, you try wild shape, and he decides that it's going the way of polymorph, and will be either banned or nerfed. I doubt it a bit, because it's a class feature rather than a spell, but it's irrelevant. After that, the druid decides to summon all the time, and summoning gets banned. Then, he tries out a set of spells, and some of those get banned. The required number of iterative bannings required to shut down a druid is ridiculous, and he can go through a lot of them without even being pushed down a tier.

Druids adapt in a way that fighters never will, because that's what the tier system is all about. The fighter gets one trick, and if it gets shut down, you might as well not exist. Druids get a ridiculous pile of tricks, and if one of them gets shut down, they barely even notice. The reason why I suggest a druid over a wizard or a cleric is because druids are more stable. Wizards partially rely on picking up spells in stores, especially in core. This is doubly true if you're constantly trying to change your tricks in the face of a GM that's crazy with bans. Clerics don't have that problem, but they mostly rely on casting in general, and have a somewhat higher reliance on magic items. Not a lot, but more. A druid without items still has wild shape, and a druid in a dead magic zone still has an animal companion. A druid who filled every slot with detect poison is still more powerful than the fighter, because he can spontaneously convert those spells in a way that's far more broadly applicable than cure/inflict wounds. In any uncertain GM situation, I'm always going to suggest a druid, because they work just about everywhere. You're never going to be blindsided with book changes, or be helpless in an itemless world. You're never going to be tossed into a situation where you have nothing to contribute. You can't say the same for a fighter or barbarian. You can't even come close.

[Novawurmson]

Of course, please accept my humble apologize for finding it distastful to bring a song about pedophilia, domestic abuse and neglect of children and murder of a child into a discussion about someone being a jerk in a game. Its not as if there aren't 100 other songs that have a similar title/chorus that would have worked just as well.

I picked that song because my wife loves the song and plays it frequently, and I've come to sincerely enjoy it. I didn't mean to offend anyone. As a second choice, might I recommend Scream and Run Away by the Gothic Archies (http://youtu.be/GsS3reVFLJI).

[Sith_Happens]

I suppose. I don't remember if the OP said anything specific about the leveling system though. It feels a lot like we just did jerk extrapolation, which is a valid line of inquiry, but possibly not a perfectly accurate one.

From post #4:


We kinda just level up when he says so.

[eggynack]

From post #4:
Fair enough on that count then. That's a pretty odd thing to combine with starting at a lower level. Still, the ghost plan requires a certain level of lenience on the matter of LA, which is not something that I'm sure this DM will grant.

[Rebel7284]

In core, I agree that Dragon Disciple seems to fit well and allows you to get the best out the pile of random abilities you were given.

Druid, even being a few levels behind, quickly catches up though.

Regardless, have fun.

If you are not having fun, talk to your DM. :)