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View Full Version : Balance Check - Pathfinder Vagabond Archetype



JonathonWilder
2013-07-13, 05:24 PM
A Bard Archetype I found that I am considering using is that of the Vagabond as will be shown below:
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---Vagabond---
Vagabonds are eternal wanderers—never able to stay in any one place for long. They give up some of their musical versatility to improve their ability to travel and avoid danger on the road.

Class Features Modifications
Class Skills: Remove Climb from the vagabond’s list of class skills and add Disable Device.

World Traveler (Ex): A vagabond gains a bonus equal to half his bard level on Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), and Linguistics checks. He can reroll a check against one of these skills, but must take the result of the second roll even if it is worse. He can reroll one additional time per day at 5th level and every five levels thereafter. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Fast Movement (Ex): At 2nd level, a vagabond’s land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the vagabond’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bard's land speed. This ability replaces well versed.

Roguishness (Ex): At 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter until 18th level, the vagabond gains a rogue-like talent. The abilities that follow replace versatile performance.

* Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a vagabond can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the vagabond is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless vagabond does not gain the benefit of evasion.

* Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a vagabond can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A vagabond with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her. If a vagabond already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

* Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 10th level, a vagabond may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.

* Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A vagabond of 14th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has vagabond levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

* Improved Evasion (Ex): At 18th level and higher, the vagabond is better at avoiding magical and unusual attacks. This ability works like evasion, except that while the vagabond still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless vagabond does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
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Originally posted here by Eric C: http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/class-options/full-class-options-list/1241-bard-archetype-vagabond

JonathonWilder
2013-07-29, 10:53 AM
All I need is a general answer from those here on whether or not this archetype is balanced enough to allow players to use the Vagabond, that is all. I want to know if there will be any issue gameplay wise that allowing the Vagabond could bring.

Anyone with thoughts?

Jormengand
2013-07-29, 10:58 AM
It should be perfectly balanced, and there's certainly nothing that leaps out as overpowered.

Also, you can't take balance checks in PF. :p

Amnoriath
2013-07-29, 12:07 PM
A Bard Archetype I found that I am considering using is that of the Vagabond as will be shown below:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---Vagabond---
Vagabonds are eternal wanderers—never able to stay in any one place for long. They give up some of their musical versatility to improve their ability to travel and avoid danger on the road.

Class Features Modifications
Class Skills: Remove Climb from the vagabond’s list of class skills and add Disable Device.

World Traveler (Ex): A vagabond gains a bonus equal to half his bard level on Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), and Linguistics checks. He can reroll a check against one of these skills, but must take the result of the second roll even if it is worse. He can reroll one additional time per day at 5th level and every five levels thereafter. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Fast Movement (Ex): At 2nd level, a vagabond’s land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the vagabond’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bard's land speed. This ability replaces well versed.

Roguishness (Ex): At 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter until 18th level, the vagabond gains a rogue-like talent. The abilities that follow replace versatile performance.

* Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a vagabond can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the vagabond is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless vagabond does not gain the benefit of evasion.

* Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a vagabond can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A vagabond with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her. If a vagabond already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

* Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 10th level, a vagabond may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.

* Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A vagabond of 14th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has vagabond levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

* Improved Evasion (Ex): At 18th level and higher, the vagabond is better at avoiding magical and unusual attacks. This ability works like evasion, except that while the vagabond still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless vagabond does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
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Originally posted here by Eric C: http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/class-options/full-class-options-list/1241-bard-archetype-vagabond
While I don't view this as unbalanced at all it does give free abilities which is usually against the idea of an archetype. I also don't understand why it replaces climb with disable device when the abilities it gains are based on movement.

Ilorin Lorati
2013-07-29, 01:50 PM
While I don't view this as unbalanced at all it does give free abilities which is usually against the idea of an archetype. I also don't understand why it replaces climb with disable device when the abilities it gains are based on movement.

There are a number of archetypes that give abilities without listing an explicit tradeout next to them. That said, I think this archetype gains far more than it loses, power wise.

Bardic Knowledge is traded out for a similarly powered ability (Mostly due to the ability to reroll), but lore master stays, which is only good because of Bardic Knowledge.

Really, all I see here is that you're trading out a few ancillary abilities for what I could consider to be the core of the PF rogue class, access to talents and abilities.


If I may make a few suggestions, I'd say to remove the two 'Improved' abilities entirely and instead of giving the bard woodland stride, trade out a song so they can give it to their party as a performance.

JonathonWilder
2013-07-29, 03:11 PM
There are a number of archetypes that give abilities without listing an explicit tradeout next to them. That said, I think this archetype gains far more than it loses, power wise.

Bardic Knowledge is traded out for a similarly powered ability (Mostly due to the ability to reroll), but lore master stays, which is only good because of Bardic Knowledge.

Really, all I see here is that you're trading out a few ancillary abilities for what I could consider to be the core of the PF rogue class, access to talents and abilities.


If I may make a few suggestions, I'd say to remove the two 'Improved' abilities entirely and instead of giving the bard woodland stride, trade out a song so they can give it to their party as a performance.

I see your reasoning, and I don't think my player will mind too much with not getting the 'Improved' abilities. They will be a bit disappoint but they mainly wanted this archetype because it gives them access to the Evasion ability fo a build he has planned and he would prefer not to multiclass too much by adding Rogue into the mix.

On the rest the archetype already gives the Woodland Stride, unless you mean at an earlier level? On your suggestion that the bard be able to give the party the benefit of their increased movement abilities that is an interesting idea but how would you suggest going about it?
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On Amnoriath's question based on what I see from the rest if the abilities I would say by movement it may mean the ability to avoid danger which Disable Device can help with though now that you mention it removing climb is perhaps not the best skill to swap out.

Also I am using my phone to type this so if there are mistakes I apologize.

Ilorin Lorati
2013-07-29, 03:38 PM
A good example would be to trade out inspire greatness for a performance that grants Woodland Stride to all allies within range, or trade out inspire courage or competence for the ability to increase nearby allies' move speed by 5' per 5 or 6 levels.

blackmage
2013-07-30, 08:22 AM
There exists an official Paizo archetype that might get your player what they want. The main drawback of it is losing the entire Bardic Performance ability, but you get a bonus to disable device, evasion and uncanny dodge, trap sense, and a few rogue talents.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist