questions about wild cohort: what lvl would heavy warhorse be?

[Phaederkiel]

Gustav, my undead cleric lvl 1 (actually a slightly worse variation of warforged which we use for undeads as a player race) has long searched for a feat, until it struck me:

Obviously, he would have a skeleton horse. Or rather, a horse with normal stats but refluffed as a skeleton.

So I decided to take wild cohort, to get myself a horse on lvl1.


Now the question is: would a heavy warhorse be ok as a lvl 1 wild cohort?
or is it far too good?

I mainly want it to be a warhorse so it can attack and does not shy from battle. I would even consider a warpony, if it fits lvl 1 better.

Gustav is neither able to handle animal at all, or to ride well. He gets one whooping skill point per lvl and both skills are cross class for him.
I figured the only way to ever get my steed to charge is if it is a kind of cohort. But perhaps, some of you have better Ideas how to get a fighting horse.

Gustav also has some 50 unused gold, which he will invest in some kind of saddle soon.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=583299

[eggynack]

Heavy warhorse seems too powerful. The best first level animal companion is a riding dog, and a heavy warhorse is a full CR over that. In particular, picking up that feat at first level would give access to an animal that could be significantly more powerful than the character that has it. A light warhorse might be a better option, because its CR is one.

[Phaederkiel]

a light warhorse would be absolutely okay. I do not want to be OP, I just want some feat which is more interesting than, say, weapon focus or Imp Ini.

[Urpriest]

You still need the same skills to fight while riding a Wild Cohort, though. It isn't super-intelligent or anything.

[Rubik]

You wouldn't need Handle Animal if you found a skeletal horse and rebuked it, since you're an undead cleric. I assume you channel negative energy? Ride is, sadly, rather needed, though you can do so untrained.

Talk to your DM about buying an animated skeleton of a light warhorse for 50 gp to keep rebuked.

[eggynack]

a light warhorse would be absolutely okay. I do not want to be OP, I just want some feat which is more interesting than, say, weapon focus or Imp Ini.
Y'know, there's a pretty good amount of cleric feats that are more interesting than weapon focus and improved initiative. I'm not saying that wild cohort isn't a perfectly viable option, but if you're just looking for neat feats, you're definitely not limited to this. You might want to look into the devotion feats from complete champion, and divine metamagic from complete divine. They might be worth looking into.

[Phaederkiel]

You still need the same skills to fight while riding a Wild Cohort, though. It isn't super-intelligent or anything.

yes, but the ridecheck to get a warhorse to ride into battle is 10 (which is somewhat doable, especially if I get myself a good saddle) while the dc for steering any horse not wartrained into battle is 20, which Gustav will not make often enough.

Likewise, the Handle Animal DC for making the Horse attack too is 10 with a wartrained horse, and 25 with a normal horse. 10 I might be able to make everY now and then.

I can also handle my animal as a move if I take it as a wild cohort, can I not?


unfortunately, Gustav is a lawful good skeleton, and thus channels positive energy.

I also want to stay as core as possible, as not to be overpowered.
I was interested in the feat strength devotion, but the question if it a) grants a slam additionally to my normal mace attack and b) if it grants that slam all day or only when activated are still somewhat unclear and my dm is not that happy about it.
We will probably tackle the village of hommlet, so I need not be that powered. A horse that might, and might not do what it is told is quite fitting and at least much better than a statistical bonus.

[Perseus]

yes, but the ridecheck to get a warhorse to ride into battle is 10 (which is somewhat doable, especially if I get myself a good saddle) while the dc for steering any horse not wartrained into battle is 20, which Gustav will not make often enough.

Likewise, the Handle Animal DC for making the Horse attack too is 10 with a wartrained horse, and 25 with a normal horse. 10 I might be able to make everY now and then.

I can also handle my animal as a move if I take it as a wild cohort, can I not?


unfortunately, Gustav is a lawful good skeleton, and thus channels positive energy.

I also want to stay as core as possible, as not to be overpowered.
I was interested in the feat strength devotion, but the question if it a) grants a slam additionally to my normal mace attack and b) if it grants that slam all day or only when activated are still somewhat unclear and my dm is not that happy about it.
We will probably tackle the village of hommlet, so I need not be that powered. A horse that might, and might not do what it is told is quite fitting and at least much better than a statistical bonus.

Staying in core means you are tier 1, you actually don't need splats to be over powered.

[Feint's End]

yes, but the ridecheck to get a warhorse to ride into battle is 10 (which is somewhat doable, especially if I get myself a good saddle) while the dc for steering any horse not wartrained into battle is 20, which Gustav will not make often enough.

Likewise, the Handle Animal DC for making the Horse attack too is 10 with a wartrained horse, and 25 with a normal horse. 10 I might be able to make everY now and then.

I can also handle my animal as a move if I take it as a wild cohort, can I not?


unfortunately, Gustav is a lawful good skeleton, and thus channels positive energy.

I also want to stay as core as possible, as not to be overpowered.
I was interested in the feat strength devotion, but the question if it a) grants a slam additionally to my normal mace attack and b) if it grants that slam all day or only when activated are still somewhat unclear and my dm is not that happy about it.
We will probably tackle the village of hommlet, so I need not be that powered. A horse that might, and might not do what it is told is quite fitting and at least much better than a statistical bonus.

So basically you are rolling dice with your destiny? That is nothing you would ever want to do .... probably in a non serious game where it might be funny if your companion decides to ride of to somewhere while your allies die against a number of orcs but in a normal game it won't be funny for very long.

My suggestion. Skip Wild Cohort (technically you couldn't take an Undead Horse anyways .... btw that's what the skeletal template is for) ... instead take Leadership at Level 6 and get some sort of Intelligent Mount and means of Telepathy between you (makes Handle Animal obsolet and Ride easier). I am not sure which intelligent animal would fit best what you want but there are some pretty good ones I bet (even with flight etc etc) so you probably should ask the Playground for that.

I ran into a similar dilemma a while ago and that's how I solved it though I didn't use a skeletal and went with a griffon instead.

Anoher idea is to get a Druid Cohort who is completely insane (just give him a wisdom score lower than 6) and go into Master of Many Forms or some other pure Shapechange PRC (which should progress the Wild Shape) ... let it be a Gnome for extra lulz. And he is basically your mount in Changed Shape.Your Dm should be ok with that since you don't use two of the important Classfeatures (if you trade away the animal companion what you probably should do).
... now that I think of it ... I have to use that Characterconcept sometimes :smallamused:

hope I could help

edit: just don't forget to buy an exotic saddle with Wildling Claps (and beg your dm that the saddle always fits the new form ... it should but check back first) ... looks kinky as hell on the gnome but is gonna be a must have .... oh and dump the intelligence of the gnome too :smallwink:

[Urpriest]

yes, but the ridecheck to get a warhorse to ride into battle is 10 (which is somewhat doable, especially if I get myself a good saddle) while the dc for steering any horse not wartrained into battle is 20, which Gustav will not make often enough.

Likewise, the Handle Animal DC for making the Horse attack too is 10 with a wartrained horse, and 25 with a normal horse. 10 I might be able to make everY now and then.

I can also handle my animal as a move if I take it as a wild cohort, can I not?


unfortunately, Gustav is a lawful good skeleton, and thus channels positive energy.

I also want to stay as core as possible, as not to be overpowered.
I was interested in the feat strength devotion, but the question if it a) grants a slam additionally to my normal mace attack and b) if it grants that slam all day or only when activated are still somewhat unclear and my dm is not that happy about it.
We will probably tackle the village of hommlet, so I need not be that powered. A horse that might, and might not do what it is told is quite fitting and at least much better than a statistical bonus.

The DC 10 is the same if it isn't a Wild Cohort. Just buy a warhorse, and take a feat that makes you a better cleric.

[Rubik]

unfortunately, Gustav is a lawful good skeleton, and thus channels positive energy.This is a bad idea anyway, because turn undead does not have an exception for when YOU are undead, so using it for its original intended purpose (like anyone does that, sheesh) will cause you...problems.

[Phaederkiel]

turn undead stops working if you are closer to the undead than 10 ft.
I am closer than 10 ft to myself when I turn.
I do not turn myself.


and: I start at lvl1. Not enough money to buy a warhorse. Much less a skeletal one. I cannot animate any dead on this lvl. Leadership is 5 lvls away.



So basically you are rolling dice with your destiny?

ahem, who of us isn't?

And I can still try to get my animal moving somewhere, and if it stands still, I can cast a spell.

[Rubik]

turn undead stops working if you are closer to the undead than 10 ft.
I am closer than 10 ft to myself when I turn.
I do not turn myself.All I see is that you have to be within 60', and I can only assume you're within 60' of yourself.

[Urpriest]

and: I start at lvl1. Not enough money to buy a warhorse. Much less a skeletal one. I cannot animate any dead on this lvl. Leadership is 5 lvls away.



None of your partymates will have one either, though.

I guess the question is, do you want a horse for transportation and the occasional help in combat, or because you want to make an actual mounted combat build? If the former, just wait until you have enough money, and after an adventure or two you'll be fine. If the latter, then I guess Wild Cohort is your best option, but a warhorse probably is too powerful for a level one Wild Cohort.

[Cheiromancer]

Gustav, my undead cleric lvl 1 (actually a slightly worse variation of warforged which we use for undeads as a player race)

Can't help you with the wild cohort question, sorry, but I am interested in how you reworked warforged into playable undead. Are there details of this posted anywhere? If not, how have warforged been changed?

[TuggyNE]

turn undead stops working if you are closer to the undead than 10 ft.

No, it doesn't. The turned condition ends if the turner approaches within 10 feet, but explicitly does not end if the turner was already within 10 feet and does not further approach. And there is nothing at all that prevents an undead within 10 feet from being turned to start with, nor anything that allows a turned undead to control its movement; given that you cannot flee from yourself, you would have to cower for 1 minute, which does not allow you to take any actions.

Sorry.

[Phaederkiel]

ok. let me just quote your signature:

That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.

that would mean that every undead evil cleric who rebuked his minions rebukes himself too, would it not?


the race is about as follows:

+2 con, -2 int, -2 cha,

darkvision, dmg reduction 5 / bludgeoning.

immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened, energy drain, cannot heal naturally, half healing from healing spells (and full benefit from inflict spells), disabled at zero rather than destroyed, no need to eat, sleep, or breathe


only point of discussion is wether it should have half healing from healing spells or damage from healing spells. If it is the latter, the -2 int will probably go.

[Rubik]

ok. let me just quote your signature:


that would mean that every undead evil cleric who rebuked his minions rebukes himself too, would it not?Wouldn't that just prevent him from being turned or rebuked later? It'd take up his HD quota, though.

[TuggyNE]

ok. let me just quote your signature:


that would mean that every undead evil cleric who rebuked his minions rebukes himself too, would it not?

Indeed, although arguably it would just act as a bolster.

[eggynack]

Are you close to yourself? I know that the whole ally thing works, and this seems similar, but you're not close to where you are. You just kinda are where you are.

[Rubik]

Are you close to yourself? I know that the whole ally thing works, and this seems similar, but you're not close to where you are. You just kinda are where you are.I don't think you can get much closer than that.

[eggynack]

I don't think you can get much closer than that.
Sure, but you're not so much close to yourself as you are just yourself. A thing can't really be said to be close to itself. I can obviously see the argument in favor of it working in the way folks are saying. I'm just saying that a counter-argument exists.

[TuggyNE]

Sure, but you're not so much close to yourself as you are just yourself. A thing can't really be said to be close to itself. I can obviously see the argument in favor of it working in the way folks are saying. I'm just saying that a counter-argument exists.


Range
You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can’t turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.

Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn.

From context, "turnable" seems to be "within the limits of your turning check". Given that, you are certainly 60 feet or less from yourself (by definition) and are probably the closest, too.

[eggynack]

From context, "turnable" seems to be "within the limits of your turning check". Given that, you are certainly 60 feet or less from yourself (by definition) and are probably the closest, too.
Turnable isn't the problem, because if someone identical to you can turn you, you can turn you. If turnable is defined in the context of stuff that you specifically can turn, then it might become problematic, but that's an argument defined in other terms, and is thus a bit irrelevant. It's the "probably the closest" part that I take issue with. If closest is defined starting with the caster, you can turn yourself. If closest is defined starting a minuscule distance from the caster, you can't turn yourself.

[TuggyNE]

It's the "probably the closest" part that I take issue with. If closest is defined starting with the caster, you can turn yourself. If closest is defined starting a minuscule distance from the caster, you can't turn yourself.

More specifically, if "closest" is defined as starting a miniscule distance away, you would turn yourself last: "closest first" does not give you immunity, only a buffer, and it's a buffer that could easily fall through, especially if you optimize turning. (Or, for that matter, if you don't optimize turning and use it against overly-strong foes. And so on.)

[eggynack]

More specifically, if "closest" is defined as starting a miniscule distance away, you would turn yourself last: "closest first" does not give you immunity, only a buffer, and it's a buffer that could easily fall through, especially if you optimize turning. (Or, for that matter, if you don't optimize turning and use it against overly-strong foes. And so on.)
You're rocking some sexy turning logic there. I don't know if it actually works, but it's definitely interesting.

[Zombimode]

Obviously, he would have a skeleton horse. Or rather, a horse with normal stats but refluffed as a skeleton.

An enemy cleric uses Turn Undead. What happens?
Someone hits your mount with a Mace of Disruption. What happens?
A rogue moves into flanking position, attacks your mount and hits. What happens?

If your answer to any of those questions is something other than "Nothing", "Will save DC 14 or be destroyed" or "Rogue applies sneak attack damage" respectively, it's not a refluff. If those ARE your answers, you have a broken continuity.

[eggynack]

An enemy cleric uses Turn Undead. What happens?
Someone hits your mount with a Mace of Disruption. What happens?
A rogue moves into flanking position, attacks your mount and hits. What happens?

If your answer to any of those questions is something other than "Nothing", "Will save DC 14 or be destroyed" or "Rogue applies sneak attack damage" respectively, it's not a refluff. If those ARE your answers, you have a broken continuity.
This is quite true. Being undead isn't fluff. It's a type that has a very specific meaning, and many specific advantages and disadvantages. It'd be odd to use undead, and not use the actual type.

[TuggyNE]

You're rocking some sexy turning logic there. I don't know if it actually works, but it's definitely interesting.

Heh. I kinda wish it didn't, given how odd it is, but oh well.

It almost makes sense, fluff-wise, that positive energy channeling for turns is so indiscriminate. But only almost.

[Marnath]

ok. let me just quote your signature:


that would mean that every undead evil cleric who rebuked his minions rebukes himself too, would it not?


the race is about as follows:

+2 con, -2 int, -2 cha,

darkvision, dmg reduction 5 / bludgeoning.

immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened, energy drain, cannot heal naturally, half healing from healing spells (and full benefit from inflict spells), disabled at zero rather than destroyed, no need to eat, sleep, or breathe


only point of discussion is wether it should have half healing from healing spells or damage from healing spells. If it is the latter, the -2 int will probably go.

I'd go with the damage from healing spells and drop the -2 int personally. It would be weird for you to be one of the very few, if not the only, type of undead that doesn't get hurt by positive energy.