Advice: Paladin of Khyber?

[Xuldarinar]

As the title. How would one manage, from the standpoint of rp and of mechanics, a paladin of khyber? A paladin who is a cultist of the dragon below.

[Nettlekid]

My Eberron mythos knowledge isn't quite up to snuff, so I'm not sure whether or not Khyber is LE, NE, or CE, but it's definitely E, so using one of the variant Paladins from Unearthed Arcane, Paladin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter, ought to do. I'd go for Paladin of Tyranny.

Unless you want to actually be a GOOD Paladin of Khyber...which I think might be kind of tricky. Unless you were either misguided, believing yourself to follow Siberys instead, or maybe you believe that Khyber stands for something good...but I don't see that really being possible, with all the devils and demons and stuff. If you want to be good and follow Khyber, you'll probably have to be a Knight or Samurai something that doesn't lose all its powers if you associate with Evil.

[Xuldarinar]

My Eberron mythos knowledge isn't quite up to snuff, so I'm not sure whether or not Khyber is LE, NE, or CE, but it's definitely E, so using one of the variant Paladins from Unearthed Arcane, Paladin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter, ought to do. I'd go for Paladin of Tyranny.

Unless you want to actually be a GOOD Paladin of Khyber...which I think might be kind of tricky. Unless you were either misguided, believing yourself to follow Siberys instead, or maybe you believe that Khyber stands for something good...but I don't see that really being possible, with all the devils and demons and stuff. If you want to be good and follow Khyber, you'll probably have to be a Knight or Samurai something that doesn't lose all its powers if you associate with Evil.

Khyber (the dragon below) is NE. I did look at the Paladin of Tyranny,and Paladin of Slaughter options. I even looked at the Despot, Corrupter and Anti-Paladin from Dragon Magazine 312. I honestly have my heart set on a good aligned paladin for this. However, anything that can capture the flavor but doesn't use the class itself is fine too.

Considering madness is a component of it, perhaps the paladin himself is insane. One option i'm considering is Cleric (Khyber)/Prestige Paladin.

[Nettlekid]

Perhaps if you portray Khyber as an Elder Evil (I mean, Khyber basically IS Hell, so...that's pretty evil) you could worship it for bonus feats like Insane Defiance, Willing Deformity (Madness), Reflexive Psychosis, etc.

I think that anything that lets you follow an objective evil while thinking subjectively it's good without penalty (ie, anything not actually a Paladin) can work. Be a Samurai, a Knight, a Duskblade, maybe not a Cleric since you'll have to be one step from NE, things like that. And just really, really believe that you're doing justice and the right thing.

What do you want this character to do?

[Big Fau]

Prestige Paladin and Crusader are your best bets.

[Xuldarinar]

Perhaps if you portray Khyber as an Elder Evil (I mean, Khyber basically IS Hell, so...that's pretty evil) you could worship it for bonus feats like Insane Defiance, Willing Deformity (Madness), Reflexive Psychosis, etc.

I think that anything that lets you follow an objective evil while thinking subjectively it's good without penalty (ie, anything not actually a Paladin) can work. Be a Samurai, a Knight, a Duskblade, maybe not a Cleric since you'll have to be one step from NE, things like that. And just really, really believe that you're doing justice and the right thing.

What do you want this character to do?

Those are some interesting ideas. Though, clerics in eberron are not restricted by their alignment. Your deity can be lawful good and you can be chaotic evil and still get your spells. Ex-clerics aren't really a thing in eberron.

Im not sure what to have the character do, its just hypothetical. I like finding a sort of synergy between two conflicting concepts in a single character. In this case, the order and goodness of a paladin but mixing in worship of essentially the 'personification' of hell itself.


Prestige Paladin and Crusader are your best bets.

You are probably right.

[Nettlekid]

Ach, how could I forget Crusader? That works well.


Those are some interesting ideas. Though, clerics in eberron are not restricted by their alignment. Your deity can be lawful good and you can be chaotic evil and still get your spells. Ex-clerics aren't really a thing in eberron.
Huh, that's neat. I didn't know that.


Im not sure what to have the character do, its just hypothetical. I like finding a sort of synergy between two conflicting concepts in a single character. In this case, the order and goodness of a paladin but mixing in worship of essentially the 'personification' of hell itself.

It is fun to do that kind of thing, but it seems a bit off to just have a really good character who pursues the cause of a super evil thing without a reason to. If your character's insane, there should be at least something which suggests to an insane mind "Khyber is good, and I approve of actions taken in the name of Khyber." Because otherwise there's not much of a synergy, just something that doesn't really make sense.

Like for example, I could see someone being Good and wanting to exterminate death to remove suffering in the world. In pursuit of this, this twisted Good character worships Vecna, thinking that the Maimed One's secrets of unlife and undeath might hold the secrets to removing all death. But to win Vecna's favor, they send many souls to the afterlife personally, Speaking with Dead and hoping that those souls might come back with knowledge of life, death, and Vecna's own secrets. Thus, insane Good serial killer. Maybe. I dunno, just off the top of my head. *shrug*

[Xuldarinar]

Ach, how could I forget Crusader? That works well.


Huh, that's neat. I didn't know that.


It is fun to do that kind of thing, but it seems a bit off to just have a really good character who pursues the cause of a super evil thing without a reason to. If your character's insane, there should be at least something which suggests to an insane mind "Khyber is good, and I approve of actions taken in the name of Khyber." Because otherwise there's not much of a synergy, just something that doesn't really make sense.

Like for example, I could see someone being Good and wanting to exterminate death to remove suffering in the world. In pursuit of this, this twisted Good character worships Vecna, thinking that the Maimed One's secrets of unlife and undeath might hold the secrets to removing all death. But to win Vecna's favor, they send many souls to the afterlife personally, Speaking with Dead and hoping that those souls might come back with knowledge of life, death, and Vecna's own secrets. Thus, insane Good serial killer. Maybe. I dunno, just off the top of my head. *shrug*

Well, while approaches from other classes may differ.. Here is a thought on a cleric/prestige paladin.

A man was practically raised in a cult of the dragon below but they are an inherently good person. Rather than just leaving the cult, they choose to make the best of it. In trying to make good from evil they become a paladin, following the traditions and rituals they can while still maintaining paladin-hood. Sharing the attitude of believing himself to be a chosen child of the dragon below with his fellow cultists, but rather than feeling other beings are mere insect to step upon, he believes it is his duty to protect them.

I see the association rules and code of conduct to be potential problems, but the wording can also be in our favor. Emphasizing knowingly and willingly, varying degrees of insanity can be nice for loop-holes here.

[Nettlekid]

Well, while approaches from other classes may differ.. Here is a thought on a cleric/prestige paladin.

A man was practically raised in a cult of the dragon below but they are an inherently good person. Rather than just leaving the cult, they choose to make the best of it. In trying to make good from evil they become a paladin, following the traditions and rituals they can while still maintaining paladin-hood. Sharing the attitude of believing himself to be a chosen child of the dragon below with his fellow cultists, but rather than feeling other beings are mere insect to step upon, he believes it is his duty to protect them.

I see the association rules and code of conduct to be potential problems, but the wording can also be in our favor. Emphasizing knowingly and willingly, varying degrees of insanity can be nice for loop-holes here.

I just don't see how that's really possible. I don't know a huge amount about the Cult of the Dragon Below, but it sounds pretty evil. Like, irredeemably evil. If you were a Prestige Paladin, you would lose your powers simply for associating with evil people, whether you acknowledged them as evil or not. Paladins are frustrating that way. But really, there's too much of a gap between that "rather than feeling other beings are mere insect to step upon, he believes it is his duty to protect them." Like, I don't see any way for him to come to the latter conclusion when surrounded and taught by people who believe in the former, and he would certainly be at odds with those people if he did. "Let's go torture the innocent for our rituals!" "Now you guuuuys, maybe that's not a good thing to do." "Well, let's put it this way. There are two positions open. The torturer, and the innocent. Which are you?" "Uhhh...Let's torture the night away!" That's kind of what would have to happen, I think.

[Xuldarinar]

Insane.

Thats really all I got. The paladin-like classes and themes could do then I guess.

[Nettlekid]

Insane yes, stupid not necessarily. Unless the character is so insane that they think slicing people up and torturing (or whatever rituals the cult does) is a "good" thing, but if that's the case then you're not playing a Good character with a strong sense of morals and righteousness, you're just playing...well, basically, nothing. Someone who calls their deeds good, but probably doesn't help anyone, but probably doesn't do anything bad either. Nothing.

[EyethatBinds]

Insane.

Thats really all I got. The paladin-like classes and themes could do then I guess.

Insanity implies chaos, not law.

[Waker]

Insanity implies chaos, not law.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Just felt like quoting that. However insanity isn't just babbling and hallucinations. Repetition, fixations and other mental quirks could be attributed to Lawful (Ordered action rather than Law as in rules).

[EyethatBinds]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Just felt like quoting that.

That's a quote attributed to Einstein, a man who had no education in psychology whatsoever. Secondly, someone who is "insane" and this magically making them lawful good is a stretch at best. It's asinine at worst.

[Xuldarinar]

If chaos is more favorable to the character theme, incorporating insanity these are all good aligned paladins that do not need to be lawful: Paladin of freedom [CG](Unearthed Arcana), Sentinel [NG] (Dragon Magazine 310), Avenger [CG] (Dragon Magazine 310).



Also, perhaps we can look to aberrant dragonmarks. Perhaps a man attains one, and decides it somehow means that khyber is reaching out to them for redemption. I don't know, just a thought.

[Prime32]

I just don't see how that's really possible. I don't know a huge amount about the Cult of the Dragon Below, but it sounds pretty evil.It's more of an umbrella term than a singular belief. Most of the cults worship "champions" like aberrations or even rakshasa rajahs (rarely understanding what exactly they are) rather than the Underdark itself.

There was an article in Dragon #332 on Dragon Below worshippers which could be good inspiration. In particular, it suggests the belief "A promised land lies deep in Khyber, but the path will not open until the surface world is cleansed of evil".

[Xuldarinar]

It's more of an umbrella term than a singular belief. Most of the cults worship "champions" like aberrations or even rakshasa rajahs (rarely understanding what exactly they are) rather than the Underdark itself.

There was an article in Dragon #332 on Dragon Below worshippers which could be good inspiration. In particular, it suggests the belief "A promised land lies deep in Khyber, but the path will not open until the surface world is cleansed of evil".

I cannot believe I missed that. It's perfect.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Maybe Shadowbane Stalker?

I mean, the fact that you get to smite things that you, as the character, deems as corrupt, is just too good to pass up for a character like this.