How much optimization is too much?

[Corinath]

Purely asking for opinions, but when do you think you cross the line?

Specifically I was thinking about this with Wraithstrike (which was being discussed in a different thread), as someone wanted a continuous effect weapon with it. Just about everyone jumped in saying "woah there."

So how do you know you've gone too far when it isn't obvious?

---

I've only, literally, played one session of dnd. At all. Our first round of combat I was rolling hide checks in the mid 30's, flat-footing the critters in front of me (from being hidden), and rolling 1d3+1d6 Sneak Attack+1d6 Iatjutsu Focus against creatures that had...oh...10 hp or so. Then I'd toss Sleep Smoke around and knock a few more unconscious.

One player jokingly remarked I was breaking the game.

I don't want to break the game, but I'm a glutton for min-maxing things. Back in my WoW days I'd out play/DPS people in gear 2-3 levels above me. Optimization is something I enjoy.

So...how do I know when (if) I've crossed the line here, being that I have no relative experience?

[eggynack]

You're probably not breaking the game in 3.5 unless you're using spells of some kind. Continuous items of wraithstrike and such tend to be looked down upon, because it represents a spurious use of what are effectively guidelines. The DM is perfectly within his rights to say that that item is inaccessible, and do so without even touching rule zero. Balance is, as always, relative. In one game you might play an incantrix, and you're right at home in your planar shepherd, StP erudite party, and in another you might be a warblade, and overpower your monk, expert party.

If you want a specific case assessed, it might be worthwhile to post the actual build, and give some of the details of what the other party members are. It probably won't end with you being too optimized, because wizards, but it's good to get an idea of what's going on. I'm particularly confused by the use of iajatsu focus, because if you're playing 3.5 you basically have to be a factotum or expert to get that. Factotums are pretty cool, but if you have sneak attack stuff, you've gotta be at like 4th level. Otherwise, it's a dip, and you're pulling the rogue from another source, which puts you at a higher level. In general, the build becomes even less impressive. Barbarians can easily pull damage like that at level one, and do so without jumping through hoops in combat.

[Azoth]

When you look at the sheet(s) of the people around you and realize you have effectively made your party mate(s) irrelavent.

[Evolved Shrimp]

This may not be very helpful to you, but... I think there is no general line dividing acceptabe optimization from too much of it.

Some people think that a bog-standard wizard is already breaking the game at higher levels (hence, e.g., E6), others are comfortable with gestalting the same wizard, layering a few templates on top of it, and then going lich.

What it may boil down to is this: You've found the right level of optimization if you are comfortable with, your DM is comfortable with it, and the rest of your group is comfortable with it.

This is likely to be an iterative process, and with any given group you may or may not actually reach a level that satisfies all.

[Fenryr]

When the DM and the rest of the players glare at you. That's when it's too much. Pulling nifty and nasty tricks won't break the game unless the DM allows it to happen.

If you suspect you're too powerful talk to the DM and ask for an honest opinion. You may also provide some counters or make them prepare better for future encounters.

[Corinath]

When you look at the sheet(s) of the people around you and realize you have effectively made your party mate(s) irrelavent.

This is a pretty good take on it. I don't think I'm doing that. I'm mostly damage and a little bit of skill monkey. But there's a good chance we have a straight up diplomancer in the group. (The only very experienced player in the party that isn't the DM.)


I'm particularly confused by the use of iajatsu focus, because if you're playing 3.5 you basically have to be a factotum or expert to get that. Factotums are pretty cool, but if you have sneak attack stuff, you've gotta be at like 4th level. Otherwise, it's a dip, and you're pulling the rogue from another source, which puts you at a higher level. In general, the build becomes even less impressive. Barbarians can easily pull damage like that at level one, and do so without jumping through hoops in combat.

Good point. We have a barbarian centaur. He put away as many mobs as I did. (4 or so).

Also, theres a feat called Cosmopolitan. It makes any non-class skill a class skill, and gives it a +2 misc bonus. Has to be taken at level 1. So I did. And went IF.

[eggynack]

Good point. We have a barbarian centaur. He put away as many mobs as I did. (4 or so).

Also, theres a feat called Cosmopolitan. It makes any non-class skill a class skill, and gives it a +2 misc bonus. Has to be taken at level 1. So I did. And went IF.
He's a centaur barbarian? So you're all at level seven? That makes 8.5 damage a hit much less impressive. If he's not basically level seven, then he is cheating, and you are obviously not the biggest problem at the table.

[TuggyNE]

As others have said, it depends almost entirely on the group; some groups play Team Solars at level 20, and others would consider doing 50 damage per hit at that level "crazy OP!" A major aspect of 3.x optimization is figuring out where your group stands (and also what weird irrational quirks they have; nearly everyone has something that they think is really cheesy that isn't necessarily that bad to others of roughly the same overall optimization preference).

[Corinath]

He's a centaur barbarian? So you're all at level seven? That makes 8.5 damage a hit much less impressive. If he's not basically level seven, then he is cheating, and you are obviously not the biggest problem at the table.

Correction. He's just a centaur right now. The group is collectively at ECL 3, but he's getting barbarian HD instead of centaur HD as he conferred with the GM about it.


As others have said, it depends almost entirely on the group; some groups play Team Solars at level 20, and others would consider doing 50 damage per hit at that level "crazy OP!" A major aspect of 3.x optimization is figuring out where your group stands (and also what weird irrational quirks they have; nearly everyone has something that they think is really cheesy that isn't necessarily that bad to others of roughly the same overall optimization preference).

Well, considering our necro basically feinted (as in, went unconscious...willingly) in battle, then spent a round summing a skele, then ran around in revelry of his dark and evil powers.

Not sure there's a whole lotta optimization going around. LoL. Me and maybe one other guy really going down that road.

But, that's a good point too. I have Ex HiPS, in one level I'll have Su HiPS, +25 to hide, the ability to hide as a swift action around magical darkness, and low level poison. I feel that's borked (Swipe swipe, hide. "Where'd it go", Swipe Swipe, hide. "Where'd it go again?" etc), but no one else really doing that. And it's not short changing anyone else either.

[eggynack]

Correction. He's just a centaur right now. The group is collectively at ECL 3, but he's getting barbarian HD instead of centaur HD as he conferred with the GM about it.
I'm not even quite sure what that means. Does he have the abilities of a centaur, except without all the RHD, and now he's taking barbarian HD? Is all of this accounting for the two LA? It all seems rather odd. In any case, it doesn't look like you're optimizing very much. You seem to be doing well at what you're doing, but what you're doing isn't crazy powerful. How does your actual build look, anyway? You've made a lot of allusions to it, but nothing concrete.

Edit: I just realized that I actually have to monster handbook open from another post I did. Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928). You should check it out for all of your monstery needs.

[Feint's End]

Short answer: When people stop having fun.

Long answer: The Level of Optimization you and your group are comfortable with completely depends on .... well .... you and your group. There is no such point as too much since that is personal preference (and even that might change from game to game because it's fun sometimes to play a low op game or a high op game respectively).
In other words ... Some people enjoy an Optimization Level where the Wizard is flinging Fireballs and the Cleric is a healbot while other Players enjoy a very high Level of Op.

In Emperor Tippys, being one of the latter, campaigns for example every NPC is on the corner to what other people might consider TO and everything in his world has to be thought of as a deadly threat. In his games you need what other people consider TO to actually survive.

[danzibr]

Although it's already been said in certain words, I'll choose my own words to say it.

When you're way stronger than your fellow party members. To me this does *not* mean making them irrelevant. A player can be relevant yet far inferior to another player. It's when the DM either tailors encounters to be difficult enough to challenge you (and hence curbstomp everyone else), or difficult enough to challenge everyone else (and hence be a cakewalk for you).

Right, it's all relative.

[The Trickster]

When the group stops having fun, then you can say you optimized too far. Not every character will be exactly on the same level, but as long as no one overshadows anyone all the time, then you are alright.

[Corinath]

I'm not even quite sure what that means. Does he have the abilities of a centaur, except without all the RHD, and now he's taking barbarian HD? Is all of this accounting for the two LA? It all seems rather odd. In any case, it doesn't look like you're optimizing very much. You seem to be doing well at what you're doing, but what you're doing isn't crazy powerful. How does your actual build look, anyway? You've made a lot of allusions to it, but nothing concrete.

Edit: I just realized that I actually have to monster handbook open from another post I did. Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928). You should check it out for all of your monstery needs.

Meaning, since we're at ECL 3 right now, he's a level 3 centaur right now. Centaurs get D10, but Barbarians get D12. So, he's a level 3 centaur, but since he's going to be a Barbarian, his healthpool is D12s instead. Other than that, normal rules apply. (Our GM also house ruled that the first two levels gain full HD, as opposed to just the first level)


In Emperor Tippys, being one of the latter, campaigns for example every NPC is on the corner to what other people might consider TO and everything in his world has to be thought of as a deadly threat. In his games you need what other people consider TO to actually survive.

This...actually sounds like crazy amounts of fun to me. Is that someone in the forums?

---

I've posted the build before in a diff thread, but I'll post an updated version of it with spoiler tags (to make it look pretty)

Dark Whisper Gnome

Level 1 Stats:
10 Str
19 Dex
17 Con
16 Int
12 Wis
12 Cha

Progression w/Class Features: (Skills left blank, see skills spoiler)
Shadow Broker
{TABLE=HEAD]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Rogue 1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0||Cosmopolitan (Iatjutsu Focus)|Sneak Attack 1d6, Poison Use
2nd|Rogue 2|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|||Evasion
3rd|Dragonfire Adept 1|
+1|
+2|
+3|
+2||Blend Into Shadows|Breath Weapon 1d6, Darkness Invocation
4th|Swashbuckler 1|
+2|
+4|
+3|
+2|||Weapon Finesse

5th|Cloistered Cleric 1|
+2|
+6|
+3|
+2|||Time Domain, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Lore, Turn Undead

6th|Rogue 3|
+3|
+7|
+4|
+3||Dark Stalker|Sneak Attack 2d6, Penetrating Strike

7th|Rogue 4|
+4|
+7|
+5|
+3|||Uncanny Dodge

8th|Avenger 1|
+4|
+7|
+7|
+3|||Sneak Attack 3d6, Death Attack

9th|Unseen Seer 1|
+4|
+7|
+7|
+5||Instinctive Darkness|Sneak Attack 4d6, +1 Dragonfire Adept Invocation level

10th|Swordsage 1|
+4|
+7|
+9|
+9|||+1 Unnamed Initiative Bonus, Discipline Focus: Shadow hand

11th|Swordsage 2|
+5|
+7|
+10|
+10|||Wisdom to AC

12th|Dragonfire Adept 2|
+6|
+8|
+10|
+11||Entangling Breath|Sickening Breath Effect, Scales (+2 Nat. Armor to AC), Draconic Knowledge Invocation

13th|Rogue 5|
+6|
+8|
+10|
+11|||Sneak Attack 5d6

14th|Rogue 6|
+7|
+9|
+11|
+12|||--

15th|Rogue 7|
+8|
+9|
+11|
+12||Savvy Rogue|Sneak Attack 6d6

16th|Rogue 8|
+9|
+9|
+12|
+12|||Improved Uncanny Dodge

17th|Rogue 9|
+9|
+10|
+12|
+13|||Sneak Attack 7d6

18th|Rogue 10|
+10|
+10|
+13|
+13||Craven|Skill Mastery (Hide, Move Silently, Iatjutsu Focus, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Spot)

19th|Rogue 11|
+11|
+10|
+13|
+13|||Sneak Attack 8d6

20th|Rogue 12|
+12|
+11|
+14|
+14|||[/table]


Maneuvers / Stances:

At Swordsage 2: 7 Maneuvers known, 4 Readied, 2 Stances

Assassin's Stance - Stance - +2d6 Sneak Attack
Child of the Shadows - Stance - 20% concealment when moving 10ft. Cannot grant HiPS.

Death in the Dark - vs Flatfooted, Fort Save (DC 17+Wis). Failure = 15d6 damage. Save = 5d6 damage
Shadow Garrote - 5d6 Damage, Flatfoot vs Fort Save (DC 13+Wis)
Cloak of Deception - Greater Invis for 1 round.
Dancing Mongoose - 1 extra attack per weapon, 1 round
Flashing Sun - 1 extra attack at highest BAB, all others -2
Pouncing Charge - Full Attack with a charge.
Sudden Leap - Jump/Tumble check as a swift action


Emphasized Skills:

Hide, Move Silently, Craft (Poison), Iatjutsu Focus, Spot, Listen, Profession (Shadow Broker)*, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device

*Profession (Shadow Broker) is homebrew. In short, whenever I do something that is wholly illegal, and leans on the INT or CHA side of the skill chart, I can roll this skill in it's place. Gather Information check to find an illegal job? I roll this. Appraise a stolen good? I roll this. But if I need to appraise that loot we just found in the dungeon? No luck.


Skill Dips:
5 Balance (+2 to IF), 4 Disguise, 8 Search, 5 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble**, 1 Open Lock, 1 Forgery, 1 Knowledge (Local, Arcana, Planes, nature, Dungeoneering, Religion)

Equipment (not all of which is anywhere near acquired):

Gnomish Quick Razor *2:
Hellforged Template (1,500): +1 dmg to flanked, Speed affinity. 1,500
Doomwarding (38,500): Re-roll a die. 7 uses.
Spellblade (6,000): Absorbs one pre-determined spell, redirects as free action.
Sudden Strike (2,000): Ref DC (10+1/2lvl+CHAmod), or stun 1d4+1/R. CHAmod/day
Shadowstrike (5,000): Add 5 to reach for 1 attack. 1/day.

Blurstrike (+2): Flatfoots 1 opponent once/encounter, 10/day
Speed (+3): Full Attack action grants extra attack.
Transmuting (+2): Overcomes DR after second hit.
Magebane (+1): +2 atk and 2d6 dmg vs Arcane or Invocations.
Earthbound (+1): +2 atk/dmg while on the ground

Spiked Gauntlet w/ Wand Chamber w/ Blurstrike wand. (Which I'll likely reserve for BBEGs due to possible cheese)

Ranged Weapon undecided.
Shuriken of Warning held in off hand when not in "safe" areas. (I.E. Dungeon's, caves, dangerous kinds of nature)
Bondleaf Wrap Leather Armor. (No Max Dex Bonus.)
Blindfold of True Darkness
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker.
Rogue's Vest or Vest of Resistance
Quicksilver Boots
Glove of the Balanced Hand
Hat of Anonymity or Disguise
Psychoactive skin of: Chameleon, Troll, Fiery Response, Hero (for BBEG)


Wands: (Included because it's very likely I'll be the only one in my party buying wands for the group. On our first adventure, I was the only one who prepared ahead of time and had a backpack and tent. LoL)

Eternal:
lvl 1
Alter Self -(can be used for +10 disguise)
Endure Elements - 24 hour duration, No fort save vs environment -50to140 degrees.
Healthful Rest - 24 Hour, doubles natural healing rate.
Obscure Object - Hides from divination. 8 hours. Caster Level independent. Will likely be used when it's unnecessary.
Undetectable Alignment - 24 hour conceals alignment.

lvl 2
Dimension Door
Alarm, Greater - 4 hours per level, caster level 3, twice per day = 24 hour alarm.
Heroics - Sta., 10mins/level, grants a fighter feat

lvl 3
Glibness - +30 Bluff Check, 10 mins/level

Misc. (I don't know their level)

Skull Watch - Permanent duration.
Leomund's Tiny Hut - 2 hours per level. Means 10 hours per charge. 2 charges. Your hut lasts 20 hours every 24 hours.
Air Breathing - 2 hours per level.
Anticipate Teleportation - 24 hour duration.

Regular:
Haste - Sta., 1R/level, +1 atk action using Full Round action, +1 atk/AC/Ref, +30 ft/r
Lessor Vigor
Benign Transposition
Nerveskitter - Immediate, +5 initiative
Omen of Peril
Shrink Item
Unseen Crafter - Sta., Make a craft check using your ranks
Heroics - Sta., 10mins/level, grants a fighter feat
Flame Blade - 1d8 Melee touch attacks 1min fireblade. Good for high AC.
Grease - you know what it is.
Knock - You know what it is!
True strike - +20 atk once!


At level 6:

Combat Strategy consists of HiPSing in order to flat-foot on the subsequent round. Full Round Attack then Swift hide check as per Blend Into Shadows. Darkstalker overcomes Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight.

Likely I'm mostly scouting and flanking at this phase.


At level 12:

General combat strategy hasn't changed. By now I'll have the Blindfold of True Darkness so I won't need spells of Ebon Eyes. I'll have a boost to knowledge devotion. I'll also hopefully have picked up some wands to boost doing Knowledge Devotion checks to overcome my weak BAB.

My 2d6 Breathweapon Sickens (-2 atk, dmg, Skill, Saves, Ability checks) and entangles (1/2 speed, -2 atk, -4 effective dex, Concentration Check (DC 15+Spell level) or lose the spell), additionally helping my low BAB, and debuffing for the group.

Swordsage dip grants a slew of things. Potentially 15d6 vs a flatfooted opponent (Which, when I'm hidden, is always). Ranged 5d6 flatfooting. Greater Invis 1/round. Pounce. Extra attacks.



Level 20:

Ideally, things start to come together a bit better here.

BAB starts picking up quite a bit. Skill Mastery and Iajutsu focus guarantee an additional 7d6 vs flatfooted opponents. Skill Mastery pushes hide into the 40's/50's (with equipment bonuses). If I want to attempt to steal, Skill mastery has me again at the 30's.

In the end, if I flat-foot someone, for each strike that lands I deal 9d6 Sneak Attack, and 7d6 Iatjutsu Focus. Gloves of the Balanced Hand + Wand of Heroics granted ITWF grant extra attacks, Hastened, and Swordsaged. If they're entangled and sickened, it's easier to hit them.


And I haven't fully integrated poison uses with this yet.

And, uh, yeah. That's the build in progress. Looking at it now, I don't feel terribly bad. Rogue's are tier 4, after all.

[Feint's End]

Emperor Tippy is one of the most famous/well-known Optimizers on GitPg and creator of the Tippyverse Campaignsetting (more of a Setting Idea actually since it isn't a specific Setting) which follows the logical conclussion of what would happen to a typical D&D world if you take every book as written into account and shows why the "basic" D&D world wouldn't be able to exist the way the designers thought it would.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007) to Tippyverse
Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=1205) to his profile

If you are into TO you should definitely check out some of his Threads though to be honest ... most of the tricks he uses are considered TO for almost every player and Dm out there and shouldn't be used in casual or even high powered game without extreme precaution.

[eggynack]

Meaning, since we're at ECL 3 right now, he's a level 3 centaur right now. Centaurs get D10, but Barbarians get D12. So, he's a level 3 centaur, but since he's going to be a Barbarian, his healthpool is D12s instead. Other than that, normal rules apply. (Our GM also house ruled that the first two levels gain full HD, as opposed to just the first level)

So, he still has all of the statistical adjustments and abilities of a centaur, and was apparently completely unaffected by LA. He also gets the HD of a barbarian for some reason (regular centaur HD are actually d8's). RHD is supposed to be a bit of a downside compared to regular class levels, and LA is obviously pure downside, so what I'm missing here is what downside there is to this, as opposed to having to face the normal downsides of centaurs. It seems like there is not one. What's happening here might not break the game, because centaurs don't seem incredibly powerful, but the rules changes themselves are incredibly problematic, because removing the balancing factor from monster progressions can be used in crazy ways.

On your build stuff, it doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. As is, it looks like a lot of your power is coming from your race and template, but as you noted you're still hovering around tier four. It's pretty well done though, and I'm a big fan of cloistered cleric and swordsage dips. Just as a nitpick, I'd probably ditch the 20th level rogue thing, given that it doesn't really do anything. Ultimately, it's probably not too much optimization unless you really start overshadowing your party, because the build isn't intrinsically imbalanced.

[Corinath]

Emperor Tippy is one of the most famous/well-known Optimizers on GitPg and creator of the Tippyverse Campaignsetting (more of a Setting Idea actually since it isn't a specific Setting) which follows the logical conclussion of what would happen to a typical D&D world if you take every book as written into account and shows why the "basic" D&D world wouldn't be able to exist the way the designers thought it would.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007) to Tippyverse
Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=1205) to his profile

If you are into TO you should definitely check out some of his Threads though to be honest ... most of the tricks he uses are considered TO for almost every player and Dm out there and shouldn't be used in casual or even high powered game without extreme precaution.

Thanks! I'll run through it when I get back from work. :)


So, he still has all of the statistical adjustments and abilities of a centaur, and was apparently completely unaffected by LA. He also gets the HD of a barbarian for some reason (regular centaur HD are actually d8's). RHD is supposed to be a bit of a downside compared to regular class levels, and LA is obviously pure downside, so what I'm missing here is what downside there is to this, as opposed to having to face the normal downsides of centaurs. It seems like there is not one. What's happening here might not break the game, because centaurs don't seem incredibly powerful, but the rules changes themselves are incredibly problematic, because removing the balancing factor from monster progressions can be used in crazy ways.

On your build stuff, it doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. As is, it looks like a lot of your power is coming from your race and template, but as you noted you're still hovering around tier four. It's pretty well done though, and I'm a big fan of cloistered cleric and swordsage dips. Just as a nitpick, I'd probably ditch the 20th level rogue thing, given that it doesn't really do anything. Ultimately, it's probably not too much optimization unless you really start overshadowing your party, because the build isn't intrinsically imbalanced.

Thanks! I was wondering what I'd take instead of the last level of rogue. It's Rogue 12, but rogue 12 gets me +1 BAB and +1 to all saves. So...it's either that, or dip in one other class. I could do Fighter SA Variant, or maybe a new class altogether. Contemplated Binder, but I'd only get 1st level Vestiges unless I traded away Instinctive Darkness for the feat. Which might be worth it?

As for the barbarian centaur thing...I may be mis-communicating, or totally mis-understanding. He's progressing as a centaur, as he should be at our level (ECL 3), he's just rolling D12's for his HP pool is all. He's not in class levels yet, just the racial levels. His HP pool is adjusting the rules, but none of the rest of us are rolling monsters as classes (though I nearly did Murralurk), so it's pretty much just affecting him with bonus hp.

GM may have done it because virtually all of the rest of us are pretty squishy. Necromancer. Druid (she's a relatively new player, she won't be abusing anything). Factotum. Some random race/class that I haven't figured out yet (This is the experienced player in the group, and he's leaving it a mystery to us. Last game we played was SWD20, and he created a crazy powerful diplomancer. Like...rolling 60-70's on checks at level 20). And myself.

[eggynack]

So, he's using the savage species progression, and isn't advancing it all the way? I guess that makes a bit more sense. I think that the problem I'm having is what "progressing as a centaur means" exactly. If it just means getting all of the centaur abilities, but not taking all of the RHD and LA, that's just straight cheating. If he's using some separate sort of progression, he might not be cheating, or he might be cheating significantly less. You might want to check out the monster handbook I posted if the former is the case. I'm not sure what I'd stick into the last level, but those seem pretty good at the outset. Another ToB level, perhaps a non-swordsage one, is always a classic option as a 20th level dip.

[Feint's End]

You can't pick the maneuvers this way. When you get your maneuvers you only have an IL of 5 and 6 respectively granting you access to 3rd level maneuvers at maximum. Dancing Mongoose is 6th level (requires an IL of 11), Death in the Dark is 7th (requires IL of 13) and Pouncing Charge is also 7th (also IL 13).

It seems like you try to do too many things. Why the Dragonfire Adept? The synergy is terrible and you won't get anything out of it. You just have better things to do with your actions. You could for example take two more levels of Swordsage at a later point in your career (to actually get the maneuvers you want to have) and pick Adaptive Style as your level 12 feat (if you read it as if you can take it at any point after having 1st level) instead. Also from an optimization point of view you probably should take Animal Devotion in place of Time Domain. The Ability to Fly without gear and as a swift action is just to tasty ... aside from the other nice benefits (+8 sacred bonus to strength is also not too bad .... though not really synergetic on your char).

[Jack_Simth]

Purely asking for opinions, but when do you think you cross the line?
So how do you know you've gone too far when it isn't obvious?As several other posters have said: How far is too far is relative to your specific gaming table. We really can't answer that.

However, we can equip you to discuss it a little more easily, to cut out some of the trial & error:

Pit Fiend Offence (PFO) and Pit Fiend Defence (PFD) numbers.

The idea is, you take a Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (or some other well-known critter of an appropriate CR to the character - you might go with an Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) at level 8, for instance), and you figure out:

PFO: How many of the critters, on average, could your character defeat in ten rounds if the critters just sort of sat there and took it (didn't fight back, didn't try to escape)?

PFD: How many of the critters, on average, would it take to take your character down in one round if your character just sort of sat there and took it (didn't fight back, didn't try to escape)?

That gives you your PFO and PFD numbers. Higher numbers equate to higher optimization. Once you have those, you can compare characters fairly directly and gauge 'power levels' (although the system has pretty severe flaws - it can't readily gauge the power of a character based around buffing the party up, for instance).

[Corinath]

So, he's using the savage species progression, and isn't advancing it all the way? I guess that makes a bit more sense. I think that the problem I'm having is what "progressing as a centaur means" exactly. If it just means getting all of the centaur abilities, but not taking all of the RHD and LA, that's just straight cheating. If he's using some separate sort of progression, he might not be cheating, or he might be cheating significantly less. You might want to check out the monster handbook I posted if the former is the case. I'm not sure what I'd stick into the last level, but those seem pretty good at the outset. Another ToB level, perhaps a non-swordsage one, is always a classic option as a 20th level dip.

By progressing as a centaur, and I could be totally wrong because i haven't talked with him in depth about it, and also haven't had a chance to read your link yet, I mean gaining racial hit die. I just assumed if centaur was, for example, 3 HD and LA+1, for him "Level 1" is 1 RHD. "Level 2" is 2RHD, etc etc.

Purely an assumption on my part.


You can't pick the maneuvers this way. When you get your maneuvers you only have an IL of 5 and 6 respectively granting you access to 3rd level maneuvers at maximum. Dancing Mongoose is 6th level (requires an IL of 11), Death in the Dark is 7th (requires IL of 13) and Pouncing Charge is also 7th (also IL 13).

Man, if you're right I totally missed the mark on that one. I thought it was your IL + Swordsage level. Somehow this didn't translate in my head.

Where in the book does it say explicitly how to calculate the highest level maneuver?


It seems like you try to do too many things. Why the Dragonfire Adept? The synergy is terrible and you won't get anything out of it. You just have better things to do with your actions. You could for example take two more levels of Swordsage at a later point in your career (to actually get the maneuvers you want to have) and pick Adaptive Style as your level 12 feat (if you read it as if you can take it at any point after having 1st level) instead. Also from an optimization point of view you probably should take Animal Devotion in place of Time Domain. The Ability to Fly without gear and as a swift action is just to tasty ... aside from the other nice benefits (+8 sacred bonus to strength is also not too bad .... though not really synergetic on your char).

The first level of Dragonfire Adept is crucial, actually. Dragonfire Adept's gain a least invocation. My toon is taking Darkness Invocation as a Spell Like Ability. Pair that with "Blend Into Shadows"

You can draw from nearby magical shadow to cloak yourself in darkness.
Prerequisite: Darkness as a spell-like ability.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can
spend a use of your darkness spell-like
ability to make a Hide check, even while being observed and without cover or concealment. You must be within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness.
You also gain one additional daily use of your darkness spell-like ability.

Which both prevents them from attacking me by detecting me first, and lowers their AC and opens them up to Iatjutsu Focus because they're flat-footed.

Rules Compendium:
If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

Which means I can full round attack something, then hide as a swift action when near magical darkness (Per Blend Into Shadows), or regular 50% concealment (Per Dark Template Hide in Plain Sight).

If I get rid of that, the Iatjutsu Focus aspect of the build falls apart, and also them being able to easily notice me renders me vulnerable to single target attacks much more frequently.

My previous build didn't have Avenger, Unseen Seer, or Dragonfire Adept 2. the first two grant me an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack. And since I have Unseen Seer granting me a spell casting level, I threw it back into Dragonfire Adept. Which meant that if I took one more level of Dragonfire Adept, I'd be able to pick up Draconic Knowledge as an additional invocation (and thus boost Knowledge Devotion and make up for some relatively bad BAB).

But picking up that extra level also grants me breath effect (I went with Sicken for debuffing), and +2 Natural Armor AC. So, since I figured I'd debuff for the group, I may as well slightly optimize it with Entangling Breath. Now anyone I hit with my crappy 2d6 breath weapon suffers a good amount of debuffing, at little cost to me (1 Standard Action), and potentially infuriating cost to them if they're Dex based or casting based. (-4 to attack AND -4 to effective Dexterity, and a Concentration Check to cast spells)

---

Adaptive style looks awesome though. I'll probably do what Eggynack suggested and lose my last level of Rogue to pick up a ToB dip of some kind.

I initially chose Time Domain for the Improved Initiative feat, and the True Strike spell. I have a month or so, at least, before I have to solidify that. So I'll definitely look at other domains (since I can wand True Strike, Nerveskitter, and hold a Shuriken of Warning on my off hand, and I didn't know that originally). That +8 to Str might be nice for the carrying capacity alone (which is going to make me start a new thread about carrying capacity).


As several other posters have said: How far is too far is relative to your specific gaming table. We really can't answer that.

However, we can equip you to discuss it a little more easily, to cut out some of the trial & error:

Pit Fiend Offence (PFO) and Pit Fiend Defence (PFD) numbers.

The idea is, you take a Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (or some other well-known critter of an appropriate CR to the character - you might go with an Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) at level 8, for instance), and you figure out:

PFO: How many of the critters, on average, could your character defeat in ten rounds if the critters just sort of sat there and took it (didn't fight back, didn't try to escape)?

PFD: How many of the critters, on average, would it take to take your character down in one round if your character just sort of sat there and took it (didn't fight back, didn't try to escape)?

That gives you your PFO and PFD numbers. Higher numbers equate to higher optimization. Once you have those, you can compare characters fairly directly and gauge 'power levels' (although the system has pretty severe flaws - it can't readily gauge the power of a character based around buffing the party up, for instance).

PFO makes total sense, and I could probably drum up numbers on that easily.

PFD might be more confusing, as my character is built entirely around "I'm hiding, you can't see me, you can't hit me." So, PFD would involve rolling almost perfect Spot checks (At level 1 my Hide skill was at 24). Anything short of that, or short of some spell I know nothing about, would mean I'm vulnerable to AoEs and that's it. Almost Nat 20 Spot Check, Spell I don't know, and AoEs.

[Feint's End]

You are getting fairly close to what some People consider TO with things like Shurike of Warning (that is something for example I don't let fly). Better keep your build simple for your first campaign ... I don't know about the other players in your group but you probably overoptimize compared to them (especially the totally unflavourful Dragonfire Adept).

Without the intend of actually offending you I have to be honest and say it seems like you are taking out the nukes before you know how regular bombs work. It will probably still work but you might blow up half of your city too.

[eggynack]

By progressing as a centaur, and I could be totally wrong because i haven't talked with him in depth about it, and also haven't had a chance to read your link yet, I mean gaining racial hit die. I just assumed if centaur was, for example, 3 HD and LA+1, for him "Level 1" is 1 RHD. "Level 2" is 2RHD, etc etc.

Purely an assumption on my part.

Generally, you'd have four RHD, +2 LA, and then take the first level of barbarian. That's actually the way monsters always work, barring some kind of separate progression. Thus, the minimum possible level for a centaur is level seven. You don't progress RHD; you just have it. The fact that some monsters have a bunch of it is supposed to be a balancing factor, because it's generally worse than class levels, so bypassing that on a whim can have some imbalancing effects. You probably should check out that link. Even if you're not playing as one, everyone should get well acquainted with the monster rules.

[gooddragon1]

When the DM and the rest of the players glare at you. That's when it's too much. Pulling nifty and nasty tricks won't break the game unless the DM allows it to happen.

If you suspect you're too powerful talk to the DM and ask for an honest opinion. You may also provide some counters or make them prepare better for future encounters.

This looks like a good evaluation.

As for my comments: it's important to make sure your DM knows what your party is capable of. If you're all melee with no cleric and no real spell casting the DM should carefully consider the implications of incorporeal undead. Different parties handle challenges differently. Though if the DM has a story reason for the undead they may need to shift weight around a little to accommodate (for example: allow a saving throw immediately to resist the negative levels or other stuff that might happen).

[Phelix-Mu]

If the DM is allowing a specific player to deviate from the rules for powerful races and monster progressions, then I don't really see that as a problem. Unless perhaps the DM is very green and totally unaware that this is a considerable power boost above the RAW for how monster classes/racial HD work. It's only problematic with further exploitation, and as long as the DM keeps an eye on it, it probably isn't a big issue. Centaur barbarian is hardly the nexus of broke, especially if he was just about keeping up with the more optimized skill monkey (sounds like a not-so-impressive barbarian, frankly).

In short, I wouldn't worry too much about four-legs over there, unless he really seems to be bamboozling the DM.

As to the OP's issue, optimization is simply using mechanics to achieve a certain game impact (usually a maximal one, but not always). For some people, manipulating complex mechanics and forming nifty synergies from diverse rules is very enjoyable. For others, not so much.

Problems can arise when someone using optimization is making the other players unhappy with their own characters or with the way combat or out-of-combat encounters are going. There are a couple simple solutions.

1.) The optimizing player can help teach the other players how to improve their characters. This is nice because it raises everyone's abilities and allows some cooperative learning, but it only works if the other players welcome it, and this might not fly at some tables (not that there is anything wrong with said tables).

2.) The optimizing player intentionally plays a terrible class or combination of classes, or other arbitrary restriction on mechanics (like VoP or somesuch), significantly lowering his/her optimization ceiling, and then tries to play the most effective character within those parameters. This is my personal approach. Fun for what it is, but can be disappointing to those of us that really are in love with certain high-tier classes (*tear* druid *tear*).

3.) The DM can take steps to make sure that some of the optimizing player's tricks and mechanical op are less relevant or less effective. Nice, because no one has to change their characters. Not nice because it's generally bad for a DM to rag on a specific player/PC too much.

[Jack_Simth]

PFO makes total sense, and I could probably drum up numbers on that easily.

PFD might be more confusing, as my character is built entirely around "I'm hiding, you can't see me, you can't hit me." So, PFD would involve rolling almost perfect Spot checks (At level 1 my Hide skill was at 24). Anything short of that, or short of some spell I know nothing about, would mean I'm vulnerable to AoEs and that's it. Almost Nat 20 Spot Check, Spell I don't know, and AoEs.

If you don't have Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), anything with Blindsense, Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), or Tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense) can still locate you. The lowly Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm), if you're carrying anything magical, can eventually tell them where you are (It's big brother, Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) does it faster, as does the granddaddy of that chain, Greater Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSightGreater.htm)).

Add to that the little issue that there's a lot of critters with AoO effects, and that anything that requires an attack roll to hit can be targetted against a square they think someone might be hiding in, and you can come up with numbers based on your opponents guessing where you are inside, say, a 20x20 dungeon room (16 squares).

[Phelix-Mu]

While I am the last one to tell people "stealth is a bad option," it's usually not a reliable combat shtick, since, as Jack_Smith points out, the DM has a huge number of things to throw at such a character to nerf that option. While there are countermeasures for most of the detection methods mentioned (arcane sight is gonna be an issue), outright Spot optimization makes Hide optimization look pretty stupid (I wouldn't be surprised if the Spot buffs outnumber the Hide buffs 2:1).

Finally, even with a good Hide check, you will often run into boss-type monsters sporting some pretty ridiculous Spot checks. It doesn't help that the ones with the best Spot checks are often also the smart ones that will withdraw from an enemy they can't see and employ detection methods/AoE barrage.

[Tvtyrant]

I think optimization is about the party as a whole.

My brother's Goliath Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 does 4d6+15 damage a round while raging. This has turned my games into "whack the mob!" battles or unbelievable amounts of hit point monsters (advanced oozes.) The rest of the party finds this perturbing, but a horse mounted charger type could do considerably more damage (Water Orc Fighter 3 with 22 str, a lance, and valorous charge equals 3d8+18 a turn. It also has more health.)

This doesn't make it overshadow the Duskblade less in damage, but theoretically it could be itself out shined.

[Corinath]

You are getting fairly close to what some People consider TO with things like Shurike of Warning (that is something for example I don't let fly). Better keep your build simple for your first campaign ... I don't know about the other players in your group but you probably overoptimize compared to them (especially the totally unflavourful Dragonfire Adept).

Without the intend of actually offending you I have to be honest and say it seems like you are taking out the nukes before you know how regular bombs work. It will probably still work but you might blow up half of your city too.

No offense taken! That's the whole point of this thread. Having people call me out on things. :)

I haven't run the Shuriken by the DM, as I'm nowhere near around the funds to buy it. And I was hoping it wouldn't do too much, in the end, as A) it really only affects one round of combat, and B) I'm only going to have it out in situations where I expect there to be danger. Sort of like a gambler would have their lucky coin, but only when they're at a poker table and nowhere else.

But it's very well possible my DM is like "Nope."


If the DM is allowing a specific player to deviate from the rules for powerful races and monster progressions, then I don't really see that as a problem. Unless perhaps the DM is very green and totally unaware that this is a considerable power boost above the RAW for how monster classes/racial HD work. It's only problematic with further exploitation, and as long as the DM keeps an eye on it, it probably isn't a big issue. Centaur barbarian is hardly the nexus of broke, especially if he was just about keeping up with the more optimized skill monkey (sounds like a not-so-impressive barbarian, frankly).

In short, I wouldn't worry too much about four-legs over there, unless he really seems to be bamboozling the DM.

As to the OP's issue, optimization is simply using mechanics to achieve a certain game impact (usually a maximal one, but not always). For some people, manipulating complex mechanics and forming nifty synergies from diverse rules is very enjoyable. For others, not so much.

Problems can arise when someone using optimization is making the other players unhappy with their own characters or with the way combat or out-of-combat encounters are going. There are a couple simple solutions.

1.) The optimizing player can help teach the other players how to improve their characters. This is nice because it raises everyone's abilities and allows some cooperative learning, but it only works if the other players welcome it, and this might not fly at some tables (not that there is anything wrong with said tables).

2.) The optimizing player intentionally plays a terrible class or combination of classes, or other arbitrary restriction on mechanics (like VoP or somesuch), significantly lowering his/her optimization ceiling, and then tries to play the most effective character within those parameters. This is my personal approach. Fun for what it is, but can be disappointing to those of us that really are in love with certain high-tier classes (*tear* druid *tear*).

3.) The DM can take steps to make sure that some of the optimizing player's tricks and mechanical op are less relevant or less effective. Nice, because no one has to change their characters. Not nice because it's generally bad for a DM to rag on a specific player/PC too much.

1) Is happening, actually. I was helping some people compile their characters and such. :)
2) This sounds like fun, actually. Maybe I'll play Truename next time.
3) Also, might happen, but we'll see if I break anything. At this point, I don't think I will, and I'm hoping I won't.


If you don't have Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), anything with Blindsense, Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), or Tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense) can still locate you. The lowly Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm), if you're carrying anything magical, can eventually tell them where you are (It's big brother, Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) does it faster, as does the granddaddy of that chain, Greater Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSightGreater.htm)).

Add to that the little issue that there's a lot of critters with AoO effects, and that anything that requires an attack roll to hit can be targetted against a square they think someone might be hiding in, and you can come up with numbers based on your opponents guessing where you are inside, say, a 20x20 dungeon room (16 squares).

I'll be getting Dark Stalker at level 6. After that, it's just the magic bit.

For them to be blind fire at me in a square, I'd have to stay there after I hit them, or they'd have to roll a listen check when I move, right? Otherwise it doesn't make much sense and turns into metagaming. (If they spot me, then it's not firing blindly.)


While I am the last one to tell people "stealth is a bad option," it's usually not a reliable combat shtick, since, as Jack_Smith points out, the DM has a huge number of things to throw at such a character to nerf that option. While there are countermeasures for most of the detection methods mentioned (arcane sight is gonna be an issue), outright Spot optimization makes Hide optimization look pretty stupid (I wouldn't be surprised if the Spot buffs outnumber the Hide buffs 2:1).

Finally, even with a good Hide check, you will often run into boss-type monsters sporting some pretty ridiculous Spot checks. It doesn't help that the ones with the best Spot checks are often also the smart ones that will withdraw from an enemy they can't see and employ detection methods/AoE barrage.

Which would also mean I'm not ridiculously TO, since I'm over optimizing a strategy that isn't necessarily overpowered?

And, honestly, if at level 20 something has a spot check that can beat the 50 or so I might be taking 12s on, then they probably deserve to see me. LoL.


I think optimization is about the party as a whole.

My brother's Goliath Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 does 4d6+15 damage a round while raging. This has turned my games into "whack the mob!" battles or unbelievable amounts of hit point monsters (advanced oozes.) The rest of the party finds this perturbing, but a horse mounted charger type could do considerably more damage (Water Orc Fighter 3 with 22 str, a lance, and valorous charge equals 3d8+18 a turn. It also has more health.)

This doesn't make it overshadow the Duskblade less in damage, but theoretically it could be itself out shined.

Damn that's a lot of damage at second level...

My last D20 campaign basically turned into that at the end. We had enemies with healthpools of like... 500-900 with 5-10 DR. It got silly.

[dascarletm]

My 2cp: (Someone probably has said something similar). It's all relative, and "Breaking the Game" really is only relative to one's party-mates. The DM can always up the encounter to match the party, but if the party is mismatched in power then it makes that difficult to almost impossible. So, if you are playing a damage type of dude, and your party members all pretty much focus on damage as well, make sure you are doing comparable damage+other things. Now if you are the only real "damage dealer" and all your teammates are healers/crowd control/buff/etc. then it don't matter to much. They can still heal/hold enemies/make you stronger no matter how quick you dispatch enemies. The DM will just have to either increase enemy power or put more on the board.

[ericgrau]

It's usually relative. When it's more than your party it's too much. When fights are always won or lost in 1 round, not including cleanup, this is also too much even if everyone is equal.

[Feint's End]

It's usually relative. When it's more than your party it's too much. When fights are always won or lost in 1 round, not including cleanup, this is also too much even if everyone is equal.

I disagree ... some people enjoy playing campaigns like this. Is it too much then? You seem to mix in personal preference.

[ericgrau]

Where you either steamroll with ease or TPK in 1 round? I'm not sure how that could be fun. Maybe the planning stage could be fun, but not the playing.

It's basically rocket tag. I have had fun playing rocket tag online... for about 5-10 minutes. Then I've had enough for a long time.

[ryu]

The thing about play like that is that you've usually made your moves ahead of time. High OP dnd is all about excessive planning, hacks, counter hacks, and information gathering.

[Jack_Simth]

I'll be getting Dark Stalker at level 6. After that, it's just the magic bit.

For them to be blind fire at me in a square, I'd have to stay there after I hit them, or they'd have to roll a listen check when I move, right? Otherwise it doesn't make much sense and turns into metagaming. (If they spot me, then it's not firing blindly.)Not necessarily. They know what square you hit them from automatically - but they'll know you'll know that, so they've got a pretty good idea that you'll be moving. In a limited-space area (like, you know, a dungeon), unless you're taking standard-action attacks only (which is usually a bad idea, due to the low damage output that way), you're going to be taking a five-foot step. You'll almost certainly be stepping into a square from which you can attack them again. Generally speaking, they'll have maybe three or four squares to choose from (including the possibility that you didn't actually move). Less, if it's in a constricted environment (such as a dungeon, which should be pretty common, given the name of the game).

Plus, of course, there's the less common variant sight abilities - lifesense (feat from Libris Mortis, but also an ability of certain undead by a similar name that works differently), Mindsight (Lords of Madness), Touchsight (Psionic power), and a few others. And, of course, Spot/Listen optimization.

Oh yes, and you can defeat Arcane Sight by way of a 1st level spell - Magic Aura, lasts days/level. You may want to get a high caster level wand of it, extended, and just rotate through your items as it wears off.

[ericgrau]

And if you need a spell to be up every day exactly X times whether you use it or not, like magic aura on a cycling schedule, then that's one of the rare times an eternal wand is a better deal than a charged wand.

[Jack_Simth]

And if you need a spell to be up every day exactly X times whether you use it or not, like magic aura on a cycling schedule, then that's one of the rare times an eternal wand is a better deal than a charged wand.
Ah, yes - a caster level 3 Eternal Wand (2nd level Arcane Spell) of Extended Magic Aura gets two uses a day, which covers up to 12 items due to the six day duration - which will cover your needs for most levels (there are twelve body slots, two virtual hand slots, and a handful of slotless items but you usually won't be using all of them). Keep the ones that are highly situational in a Handy Haversack, and Magic Aura the Haversack. When you get to the point where you exceed that 12 item threshhold, you should be able to afford a second Eternal Wand.

[gooddragon1]

Where you either steamroll with ease or TPK in 1 round? I'm not sure how that could be fun. Maybe the planning stage could be fun, but not the playing.

It's basically rocket tag. I have had fun playing rocket tag online... for about 5-10 minutes. Then I've had enough for a long time.

Rocket tag for me is counter strike source on cs_office with awps. Reflex battle go!

[dascarletm]

Rocket tag for me is counter strike source on cs_office with awps. Reflex battle go!

Improved Initiative will be a PCs best friend.