Cloistered Cleric Help

[ClericQ]

Hi all, so I'm playing with a group right now who is very Melee heavy (Ranger/Druid, Paladin, and a Barbarian/Fighter), and I've decided that I'm going to pick up the missing parts of the party, so Caster, healer, buffer, skill monkey. I know, it screams MAD right now, but here's what I've come up with. Most books are good, but obviously nothing that makes it OP, so like no nightsticks.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to optiamize this, or things that would help it, I would really appreciate it.

Level 4 Human
Factotum 1 / Cloistered Cleric 3 (going for 19)

Stats: (starting stats are 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18)
STR: 12
DEX: 11
CON: 16
INT: 18
WIS: 16 (14 + DM granted 2, 19 @ lvl 16)
CHA: 13 (14 @ 4th level)

Domains:
Planning, Undeath, Dragon (Granted by DM)

Feats:
H: Able Learner
1: Quicken Spell
Domain: Extend Spell
Domain: Extra Turning
Swap Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion
3: DMM Quicken Spell
6: Reach Spell
9:Chain Spell
12: DMM Extend Spell
15, 18 (Either more Extra Turning or Persist Spell and DMM Persist Spell)

So with Factotum I get all those skills, powered with loads of points thanks to Able Learner. The inspiration points, cunning knowledge and Cunning Insight while handy at lower levels, loses effectivness later.

Cloistered Cleric brings on the Divine Spells. Planning Domain for Extended Spell, Undeath for Extra Turning, giving up Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.

I lose a level of caster, fill it with skills, focus my battle time on casting / buffing, I dunno what else to say. I hope there's enough information here. Thanks in Advance.
-ClericQ?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You might want to use Archivist instead of Cloistered Cleric-- the casting is partially based on Intelligence, so you get better synergy with Factotum/keeping your Int high for skills. You can get Turn Undead back later by dipping into Sacred Exorcist.

Alternately... have you considered Bard? I recently joined a group in a similar state-- lots of melee, no skillmonkey, and rolled up a bard, and it worked great. You get the basic healing spells, so you can run down wands of CLW, and UMD, so you can pull out scrolls of uncommon restoration spells. Take Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and inspirational boost and become your melee fighter's best friend. Use the Bardic Knack ACF to dabble in every skill in the game.

[Lightlawbliss]

why you waiting so long for persist if you are a buffer?

[Feint's End]

Alternately... have you considered Bard? I recently joined a group in a similar state-- lots of melee, no skillmonkey, and rolled up a bard, and it worked great. You get the basic healing spells, so you can run down wands of CLW, and UMD, so you can pull out scrolls of uncommon restoration spells. Take Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and inspirational boost and become your melee fighter's best friend. Use the Bardic Knack ACF to dabble in every skill in the game.

Second this. Bard is better than what you try to do now in every respect (exception being Dmm cheese). Go into Sublime Chord for 9th level wizard spell. You just got your group a healer, buffer (amazing synergy with you group), skillmonkey, arcane caster (!) with access to 9th level spells later on. If you really want the devotion feats dip into cloistered cleric for one level. This is a pretty decent dip for bards due the devotion feats you can pick up and the amount of fuel you have for them (Animal Devotion comes to mind)

[ClericQ]

Lots of love for the bard route. I do need at least one cleric level though, as my role is part of the plot (the storyline revolves around a revolution based on the words of the Dragon God). So what would you guys suggest? CC 1/ factotum?/ Bard? I saw the archivist mentioned but I've never seen it before. If I got this route, what sort of feats do I need to look into? What stats do I want to focus on? Also, does this route include the open lock skill?
-ClericQ?

[ClericQ]

why you waiting so long for persist if you are a buffer?

Sorry, forgot to reply to this one. Buffer I considered secondary, that using extend, reach and chain to pop off buffs as their needed came second to field control. But I would consider taking that earlier if anyone can confirm its worth in early game

[Feint's End]

Talk to your Dm about allowing your first level to be bard and the second one to be the one level cl dip
1 Level Cloistered Cleric (I bet you have to go at level 1)
afterwards bard till Sublime Chord (if you want you can get Lyric Thaumaturge and Virtuoso in there but that really depends on the Op level in your campaign and Dm tolerance)

1st As Level one feats take Melodic Casting; if you have another feat put it in whatever suits you well though Weaponfinesse is probably a good idea as well as some form of prerequisite for Prcs
2nd As you get your Cloistered Cleric level exchange Knowledge, Travel and Animal for the respective Devotion feats (if I understood right you still got Dragon)
3rd Song of the Heart here as a feat; also take the Spell Inspirational Boost to boost your Inspire Courage bonus to +3
6th Words of Creation (if you are good) is a must have here
9th onwards is kinda dependant on what you want to focus

edit: not that one of the greatest things about the dip into cloistered cleric is the extremely early access to Flight (level 2 or even 1) with Animal Devotion

[TuggyNE]

Sorry, forgot to reply to this one. Buffer I considered secondary, that using extend, reach and chain to pop off buffs as their needed came second to field control. But I would consider taking that earlier if anyone can confirm its worth in early game

DMM: Persist is always worth it. It's the single best use of DMM, which is saying something. In fact, it's Persist and Quicken that make DMM so broken; if it didn't work on those, it'd be good, but not OP.

[Studoku]

What about Divine Bard?

[ClericQ]

What kind of Stats should I be focusing on with the Bard Route? High CHA / WIS/ DEX? I guess theres no way to get the Open Lock skill with that route right? So I'd be better off performing for Gold to buy Scrolls of Knock and my healing scrolls?

[Lightlawbliss]

Do you have any idea how long you have to be performing to get a single scroll? Also, there is nothing stopping u from taking open lock (you just won't have trapfinding)

[dascarletm]

If you need fluff reasons for being a bard...

The words of revolution or the words of the dragon god being spread and preached by a wandering bard makes almost more sense than using a cleric. Spontaneous arcane spells=Dragon, Spreading the word/story=bard. It's a perfect fit!

[ClericQ]

If you need fluff reasons for being a bard...

The words of revolution or the words of the dragon god being spread and preached by a wandering bard makes almost more sense than using a cleric. Spontaneous arcane spells=Dragon, Spreading the word/story=bard. It's a perfect fit!

Love this right here.

Lightlawbliss, how is the training handled? I can't find anything that states how or for how much I can buy the training for it anywhere (part of the factotum dip in the first post)

[Lightlawbliss]

Love this right here.

Lightlawbliss, how is the training handled? I can't find anything that states how or for how much I can buy the training for it anywhere (part of the factotum dip in the first post)

If there is any "training" at all, the cost would have to be given by your DM along with his stating that training exists. It would likely just cost skill points.

[Feint's End]

What kind of Stats should I be focusing on with the Bard Route? High CHA / WIS/ DEX? I guess theres no way to get the Open Lock skill with that route right? So I'd be better off performing for Gold to buy Scrolls of Knock and my healing scrolls?

max Charisma

you also need 15 int for words of creation (absolutely worth it though) ... if you can get 11 wisdom so you can cast your few cleric spells (doesn't really matter but whatever)
afterwards prioritize con/dex > strength

with the cleric dip you have acess to the wand of lesser vigor which is the most efficient way of healing for money (750 g for 50x11 hp)

your build could look like this:
lvl 1 Bard with Melodic Casting + situational feats
lvl 2 Cloistered Cleric -> exchange domains for travel, animal and knowledge devotion
lvl 3-6 Bard / level 3 feat should be Song of the Heart and level 6 feat should be Words of Creation
lvl 7-8 Lyric Thaumaturge PRC (CM p.67) / qualifies with Melodic Casting and some minor skillrequirements)
lvl 9-10 Virtuoso PRC (CAdv p.89) / easy entry requirements / your level 9 feat should be Practised Spellcaster (Bard)
lvl 11-12 Sublime Chord PRC (CA p.60) / also easy entry
lvl 13-20 Virtuoso PRC /increase the Spellcasting of Sublime Chord instead of the Bards

Now you got yourself a bard with way better spellcasting (9th grade says hi) and better songs (in addition to the amazing virtuoso performances) and better buffing
you got 18 uses of Bardic Music per day which you can give up for several benefits to you casting and/or use to buff your teammates. You got the inspire courage of a Level 15 bard which is enough for a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
if you use Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost (the spell from the SpC) and the Badge of honor (or what was the name?) this boost increases to +6 which gets doubled by Words of Creation for a +12 boost to attack and damage for you and every ally who can hear you ... and the best about it? You can still cast while using the music due to Melodic Casting. Also take Perform (sing) because that leaves your hand free.

edit: if your dm removes the stupid +1 bab requirement on Weaponfinesse you could be a decent melee support for the first few levels (given you have the feat to spend) though you probably won't need it --> the problem is I'd recommend taking snowflake wardance if you want to gysh it up a bit but you don't have a featslot free till level 12 ... you probably could change Song of the Hear and Snowflake Wardance though.

Investing into a gyshbuild isn't worth it though since you are basically a skillmonkey fullcaster with better songs and will have enough things to do without even touching anything similar to a sword. If you can get retraining allowed it might be an option for the first 3-6 levels though

edit: another note about this build is that it's absolutely playable from level 1 on and just gets better and better as it's getting up. There is no real breaking point where it gets viable instead it is from the very beginning.

also -> swift action flight from level 2 3 times per day (assuming cha 16 but you should have cha 18 at least)

[Grod_The_Giant]

What kind of Stats should I be focusing on with the Bard Route? High CHA / WIS/ DEX? I guess theres no way to get the Open Lock skill with that route right? So I'd be better off performing for Gold to buy Scrolls of Knock and my healing scrolls?
If you're going pure bardic skillmonkey, Charisma, followed by Dex and Int. Use the Bardic Knack ACF. Dip into Rogue, Scout, or Factotum for a level to pick up trapfinding and put points into open lock, disable device, and any other cross-class skills you might want.

Bard gets Cure spells, though you'll probably wind up UMDing for Heal and Restoration scrolls.

[ClericQ]

max Charisma

you also need 15 int for words of creation (absolutely worth it though) ... if you can get 11 wisdom so you can cast your few cleric spells (doesn't really matter but whatever)
afterwards prioritize con/dex > strength

with the cleric dip you have acess to the wand of lesser vigor which is the most efficient way of healing for money (750 g for 50x11 hp)

your build could look like this:
lvl 1 Bard with Melodic Casting + situational feats
lvl 2 Cloistered Cleric -> exchange domains for travel, animal and knowledge devotion
lvl 3-6 Bard / level 3 feat should be Song of the Heart and level 6 feat should be Words of Creation
lvl 7-8 Lyric Thaumaturge PRC (CM p.67) / qualifies with Melodic Casting and some minor skillrequirements)
lvl 9-10 Virtuoso PRC (CAdv p.89) / easy entry requirements / your level 9 feat should be Practised Spellcaster (Bard)
lvl 11-12 Sublime Chord PRC (CA p.60) / also easy entry
lvl 13-20 Virtuoso PRC /increase the Spellcasting of Sublime Chord instead of the Bards

Now you got yourself a bard with way better spellcasting (9th grade says hi) and better songs (in addition to the amazing virtuoso performances) and better buffing
you got 18 uses of Bardic Music per day which you can give up for several benefits to you casting and/or use to buff your teammates. You got the inspire courage of a Level 15 bard which is enough for a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
if you use Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost (the spell from the SpC) and the Badge of honor (or what was the name?) this boost increases to +6 which gets doubled by Words of Creation for a +12 boost to attack and damage for you and every ally who can hear you ... and the best about it? You can still cast while using the music due to Melodic Casting. Also take Perform (sing) because that leaves your hand free.

edit: if your dm removes the stupid +1 bab requirement on Weaponfinesse you could be a decent melee support for the first few levels (given you have the feat to spend) though you probably won't need it --> the problem is I'd recommend taking snowflake wardance if you want to gysh it up a bit but you don't have a featslot free till level 12 ... you probably could change Song of the Hear and Snowflake Wardance though.

Investing into a gyshbuild isn't worth it though since you are basically a skillmonkey fullcaster with better songs and will have enough things to do without even touching anything similar to a sword. If you can get retraining allowed it might be an option for the first 3-6 levels though

edit: another note about this build is that it's absolutely playable from level 1 on and just gets better and better as it's getting up. There is no real breaking point where it gets viable instead it is from the very beginning.

also -> swift action flight from level 2 3 times per day (assuming cha 16 but you should have cha 18 at least)

I'm a bit confused where the 18 uses of Bardic Music / Day and the "Inspire Courage of a level 15 bard" comes from.

[ClericQ]

I'm a bit confused where the 18 uses of Bardic Music / Day and the "Inspire Courage of a level 15 bard" comes from.

Okay, I've got the 18 Bardic Music / Day, but I can't get the Level 15 bard thing.

The way I count it out, I only get 13.
Bard 1, 3-6 = 5
Lyric Thaumaturge 7 & 8 = 7
Virtuoso 9 & 10 = 9
Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) = 13 (because you only get 4 levels right?)

After that, you said that the other Virtuoso goes to Sublime Chord, so those don't stack.

What am I doing wrong?