Need help with a ranger, basic 3.5 d20

[Wander]

So this is my first game of D&D, and I could use a little help with my character. This is the character so far.

Human
Ranger
STR: 14
DEX :14
CON: 11
INT: 9
WIS: 11
CHA: 7

So the campaign rules are pretty basic, were following this pretty closely http://www.d20srd.org/ Basically I want to make my character TWF focused, with a bit of archery mixed in. I know I got pretty crappy starting stats, but that can't be helped. I'm pretty sure we'll be raising them as we level up anyways.

So my main dilemma has been what weapons to use, and what feats to take. I was thinking dual longswords, but the -4 really sucks. Then I thought I could take the feat to use bastard swords and maybe the d10 would compensate for it, but I'm not sure if that would be smart. I think I just need a shove in the right direction, I still haven't chosen my two starting feats because I'm not really sure what to pick.

I was thinking maybe dodge and spring attack? Is power attack even worth it for dual wielding? I read somewhere that it was pretty useless. I could also use help in picking my pet. We have a goblin in the party so I thought it would be funny to get a riding dog, assuming party members can mount my pet that is. I would appreciate any tips or suggestions you guys have, thanks.

[Flickerdart]

If you want a character who splits his focus between two combat styles, 3.5 isn't going to treat you well. With a ranger's low hit die and your terrible Constitution, I'd advise focusing on archery and not even bothering with melee.

[Wander]

If you want a character who splits his focus between two combat styles, 3.5 isn't going to treat you well. With a ranger's low hit die and your terrible Constitution, I'd advise focusing on archery and not even bothering with melee.

Hmm I see. My constitution will most likely get raised as will the other stats, and my hit die right now is 8d+3. I'm not really wanting to be a full hybrid, I just want to be semi-competent with a bow when I have to use it. The main reason I don't want to focus on archery is that it doesn't interest me, and we already have a rogue who is mainly using bows. So other than me we only have one melee fighter. Even though it's not very viable, do you have any tips for a TWF ranger? I could really use advice on what weapons to use, or which feats to take. Thanks.

[nedz]

One of the strengths of Ranger are their skill points. Your low Int nixes this.

Another strength they have are their spells, but with 11 Wis this isn't going to pan out too well. There are a number of ACFs you can take which swap spells for other features; whilst I wouldn't normally rate them I would consider them in this case.

How wedded are you to the class ? You can build a better character with the Ranger archetype in others ways.

Consider Barbarian: your skills will be slightly worse, but Rage will fix your Str and Con and Power Attack should do the rest: Two handed weapons of course.

Druid is even better, though you would need to put a 14 in Wis.
The Deadly Hunter (UA, p 58) ACF gets you a bonus to AC when unarmored and fast movement (as monk)also favored enemy, track, and swift tracker as a ranger. This costs you armor and shield proficiency and wild shape.
The Druidic Avenger (UA, p 51) ACF swaps your animal companion and spontaneous casting for fast movement and rage.
Take both of these and you have a solid combatant with a full set of spells.

[Flickerdart]

Why would you have d8+3? Your Constitution modifier is +0.

I am assuming that you don't own any expansion books (there's some really good Ranger stuff there that makes it not suck).

Rule 1 of melee is that two-handed fighting is always better than two-weapon fighting. As such, if you want to TWF, take a greatsword as your primary weapon and use armour spiked as the off-hand. Power Attack isn't going to be useful for another few levels, so hold off on that for now.

As a TWFer, you're going to want to keep yourself in one spot so you can make full attacks. The bow will be useful here - pepper your enemies with arrows until they come to you, then draw your sword and have at them. Quick Draw may be useful for this if you have the feats to spare. Make the bow a Composite Longbow rated for +2 Strength - it's expensive, but will improve your damage with it. The main advantage of the bow is that you can have specialized ammunition for dealing with your enemies. Consider a 1-level dip into Assassin to pick up poison use, and then have various arrows primed with poisons, special material arrows for piercing DR, and so forth.

Your pet will be fragile, and is best used as a mount for yourself so that you can run away from your enemies and still get to shoot lots of arrows at them.

[Wander]

The d8+3 is my chance to hit, 2 from my dexterity and 1 from the Ranger bonus. As I said I'm pretty new to d&d, but I assume that's right? We actually already have a barbarian, and I believe a druid as well.

The game isn't too difficult or rules intensive, and for a couple of us it's our first time playing. For example we have a goblin barbarian, so I think were playing more for fun over difficulty. I don't think were using expansion books, pretty much following that d20 srd link.

I heard about the 2h / spike build, I'm just not sure how long it would be until I get something with armor spikes. I also kind of like the idea of a TWF, and really wanted to try and make longswords or bastard swords work. I'm not sure if it's a house rule or something, but I believe we will be raising attributes as we level up somehow ( probably to offset our terrible starting rolls ).

Would using two longswords or a bastard sword with Weapon Focus work? I'm just unsure if it would be worth it, I was hoping the higher damage would offset the -4 penalty. I know the bastard requires EWT, but it has a d10 instead of a d8.

I realize my build probably won't be great, I just want to make something decent that I can have fun with. If I did decide to pursue TWF, should I be taking feats like Two Weapon Defense, Dodge, Spring Attack etc.? I'm also pretty clueless on skills, I know I should raise things like survival but other than that I don't have much of an idea.

I appreciate you guys helping me out with this, I'm still new to the game and I apologize if I sound totally clueless.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The d8+3 is my chance to hit, 2 from my dexterity and 1 from the Ranger bonus. As I said I'm pretty new to d&d, but I assume that's right? We actually already have a barbarian, and I believe a druid as well.

Hit Dice is the term for the dice you use to calculate your HP. For example, a 2nd-level Ranger has 2d8 HD, one from each level of Ranger. The bonus HP from your Constitution is usually added with a + sign, so if the Ranger above has

Anyway, I'd strongly advise you to read over the SRD again. You roll a d20 for almost everything. In the case of attack rolls (your chance to hit), you would be rolling 1d20+3. Strength is used in close-combat rolls, not Dexterity, also, unless you take a feat for it.


I heard about the 2h / spike build, I'm just not sure how long it would be until I get something with armor spikes. I also kind of like the idea of a TWF, and really wanted to try and make longswords or bastard swords work.

Unfortunately, TWF sucks pretty badly and takes a lot of investment and optimization to make work, especially with those kinds of stats.

I would highly recommend either two-handing or archery. More on that in a sec.


I'm not sure if it's a house rule or something, but I believe we will be raising attributes as we level up somehow ( probably to offset our terrible starting rolls ).

You get a +1 to one of your stats every four levels (4, 8, 12, etc.), so no, not a house rule.


I realize my build probably won't be great, I just want to make something decent that I can have fun with. If I did decide to pursue TWF, should I be taking feats like Two Weapon Defense, Dodge, Spring Attack etc.?

The problem is, you're probably not going to have fun if your character is swinging and missing constantly. Incompetence sucks. D&D is also littered with options that are awful and are not immediately discernable as so to a new person, like Dodge and TWD.

Here's what I would personally do if you I were playing your character:

I would switch the 14 in Dexterity to Wisdom. There's a feat in Complete Warrior called Zen Archery that's super simple; it lets you use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier with ranged attacks. This will let you be a fairly competent archer and it will let you cast spells when you get to fourth level. Spells are awesome, even with the extremely limited spellcasting a ranger gets. You can also start picking up wands and the like at 4th level, which will give you more stuff to do.

If you want to go two-handing, just grab a greataxe or greatsword and get swinging. Take the Archery combat style, shoot people until they get into range, then smack them in the face. Take the Power Attack feat in a few levels. It won't be amazing, but it'll be much better than trying to dual wield.


I'm also pretty clueless on skills, I know I should raise things like survival but other than that I don't have much of an idea.

Skills are pretty awesome. You have 20 points to play around with. Survival isn't bad, yes. Spot and Listen are both invaluable for detecting stuff. Knowledge (Dungeoneering and Nature) are both great, letting you identify various things. Know (Geography) is much more situational. You need Move Silently and Hide if you want to be stealthy. Climb, Jump, and Swim are somewhat situational, but can be really handy to have, Climb and Jump probably more so than Swim. Concentration can be handy, but isn't as useful to a ranger as it is a full spellcaster. Search is useful if you're DM likes playing "spot-the-clue". Craft can be useful, but is also quite situational. Handle Animal may or may not be useful, depending. Heal is generally pretty crappy, don't bother with it. Profession is almost entirely worthless to you. Ride probably isn't worth it, unless you're planning to spend a lot of time on mounts. Use Rope really isn't worth it at all.

If you go with the Zen Archery thing, you might consider switching your Strength score with your Intelligence. That will give you 12 more skill points to mess around with at 1st level and 3 more each level after that.

[Gavinfoxx]

These stats:
STR: 14
DEX :14
CON: 11
INT: 9
WIS: 11
CHA: 7

Are really, really, really, really, really bad. Like, extremely aberrant for how D&D 3.5e does stat rolls, bad. Like possibly unplayable bad, and maybe even 'below the minimum you are supposed to have when playing the game.' Talk to your GM about getting 28, 30, or 32 point buy.

[ericp65]

Your DM isn't very nice if you're not allowed to reroll those ability scores.

Are you limited to published game books, or are you allowed to use anything that's available on-line? There's a class called Swift Hunter that kicks up a ranger-themed character, making him/her more versatile and potentially more successful in combat. I recommend giving it a look, and pitching the idea to your DM. Swift Hunter is a hybrid of Ranger and Rogue.

If you find yourself ultimately going with TWF, a light weapon in your off-hand will give you less of a penalty to hit. I was gonna recommend against the bastard sword, but you could wield that in one hand and a light weapon in your other, and just drop the light weapon and go two-handed on the bastard sword when you want to put more hurt on.

[Mr.Bookworm]

These stats:
*snip*

Are really, really, really, really, really bad. Like, extremely aberrant for how D&D 3.5e does stat rolls, bad. Like possibly unplayable bad, and maybe even 'below the minimum you are supposed to have when playing the game.' Talk to your GM about getting 28, 30, or 32 point buy.

This, too. I was assuming you were stuck with what you had, but if you're not, you would be waaaay better off with stats that don't suck.

Unfortunately, you're 1 over D&D's (stupidly low) reroll allowance, but yeah, talk to your DM.

[Gavinfoxx]

This, too. I was assuming you were stuck with what you had, but if you're not, you would be waaaay better off with stats that don't suck.

Unfortunately, you're 1 over D&D's (stupidly low) reroll allowance, but yeah, talk to your DM.

Yea, the stats are bad enough to do the 'I jump off a cliff, what are my next set of character rolls?' thing.

[Wander]

I didn't know my stats were so abhorrently bad, but thanks for letting me know. I'll talk to the DM about being able to reroll the scores. All we did was roll 3d6 six times, and that was our stats. Originally it was even worse, one of them was a four... Can't say I was happy with the roll system. Apparently for every level after 1 we get +1 to a stat, so maybe that is the reasoning? I really have no clue about his take on any classes / specialties not listed under the srd. I know were playing d20 standard and he seems to want to follow that, is that different from 3.5 at all?

[TuggyNE]

This, too. I was assuming you were stuck with what you had, but if you're not, you would be waaaay better off with stats that don't suck.

Unfortunately, you're 1 over D&D's (stupidly low) reroll allowance, but yeah, talk to your DM.

Hmm. It's a total of +1 modifier; I can't remember if that's low enough to justify a reroll.

3d6 in order isn't so great for 3.x, and is not the recommended system in the books either. 4d6b3 (roll 4 dice for each, keep only the best three and sum them) or point buy (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html) 25/28/32 are better choices in general.

[Gavinfoxx]

All we did was roll 3d6 six times, and that was our stats. Originally it was even worse, one of them was a four..

That's not how you roll D&D 3.5e stats. That's more OD&D, where you are expected to not name your character until they get to third level or so, and stats didn't mean as much (and lower rolls didn't cripple your capability, for example), and the characters were generic and replaceable, and it was intended as a game of attrition of characters.

And you are supposed to get +1 ability score at levels 4, 8, 12, etc.


And I think D20 standard is not D&D 3.5e. It sounds like someone's homebrew rules.

You should consider using these rules instead:

http://www.d20srd.org/

[Feint's End]

Ok first of all you roll a d20 for most things in Dungeons and Dragons. If you and your group assumed it's different you should probably read through the rules chapter once more (and please don't take that as an insult ... it's not intended to be one).

Second ... to be honest ... these boards are probably not the right place to start asking for your first Character and help before you even grasp the basics of the system. Will we help you ... ofc we will ... but often it helps to play one game first to see how the basics work before asking for an effective character because we can build you a very strong one but you probably won't understand half of the things because it wasn't you who built it. I generally let new players build their own character with a little help from me ... because it's more important to learn understand the system and build your own character than have a really strong one in your first game.

With that all said lets get to helping you :smallwink:
-addition: if you can get your stats changed please let us know ... or if you are allowed to use a more human way of rolling up stats (the PH basic way of rolling up stats isn't frowned uppon for no reason); also ... is this game core only? Or can you get allowed other books.
-First .... Ranger is probably not gonna make you happy. What are the other classes in your group? It might be better (and more fun) to roll up a barbarian. You won't have enough skillpoints and the right skills to pull off the main skillmonkey anyways (also you already have a rogue) and all the other features of the ranger are more or less replacable by a barbarian.
-Second .... I looked at your Character sheet and there are some mistakes:
>medium doesn't grant any modifiers on size (for armorclass or anything else); where do you got that idea from?; every size category bigger than medium gives a cumulative -1 size penalty to AC and every size category smaller gives a cumulative +1 size modifier to AC
>you have a base attack bonus of +1 (where melee and ranged bonus are calculated)
>your base saves depend on your class; as a ranger you'd have +2 to fortitude and reflex at level 1
-Third .... if this game is core only I'd consider taking Half Orc for the additional +2 to strength (ask your dm if you can drop one of the two penalties because it's unreasonable to have 2 for just 1 bonus ... back in those days WotC thought +2 to Strength is worth two penalties)
-Forth .... take Power Attack

Now if you are a first level half orc Barbarian and Raging using the Greatsword (better weapon than the Greataxe) your attack will look like this (assuming you use Power Attack with your +1 base attack bonus):
-hit: 1d20 (attack roll) +5 (strength 16+4 with rage equals 20 and that is a +5 bonus to hit) + 1 (Base attack bonus) -1 (power attack penalty)
= 1d20 +5
-damage: 2d6 (Greatsword damage) + 7 (strength=5x1.5=7.5 and D&D always rounds down) + 2 (Power Attack penalty x2 because it is a two handed weapon) = 2d6 + 9 = average damage of 16 per hit at level 1 ... enough to one shot almost everything at this level.

Also the Constitution boost on Rage helps in addition to the high HD.

Also it is one of the most fun things to play Barbarian in your first campagin since it is pretty straight forward and easy to learn the system with it.

As you advance consider taking feats like Cleave and greate cleave (which are worth it for a barbarian in core), blindfight, improved initiative, combat reflexes (and get a reach weapon) etc etc .... as a general suggestion take feats which give you a general benefit or more attacks instead of ones which give you a small numerical benefit (like weaponfocus *shudder*)

Another suggestion (maybe slightly more powerful) is using the same build and take combat reflexes as your first level feat and power attack as your third level feat. Every time somebody moves out of a field in 10ft radius around you you get a free attack against them (up to a maximum of 3 attacks per round with your dexterity or 2 if you are raging (your dex is lower)).

So lets see ... lets say you use a glaive (lower damage than the greatsword but reach) and you are level 3 .... you rage and go full pa (you have weak enemies)
-your hit would be +6 (since you trade away all +3 of base attack bonus for more damage) (note that it is +5 normally but at this point you should have at least a masterwork weapon)
- your damage would be 1d10 (5.5 average damage from the Glaive) + 7 (strength in rage) + 6 (power attack) = average of 18.5

you can make up to two attacks of opportunity per round due to having combat reflexes (so you basically always strike first-> if it's your turn you move up to the enemy and if it's the enemy turn you attack him before he gets in range to attack himself).

In general I strongly suggest with going away from ranger and take the barbarian instead. If you really want to use a bit archery take two level ranger for rapid shot and in addition you'll get Track as a bonus feat if you want it for the flavour.

Hope I could help a little.

[Studoku]

4d6 drop the lowest for each stat is considered the "default" method. Some people use even higher rolls due to a combination of power creep and entitlement; I've seen people mention 6d6 keep 3, reroll 1s and other crazy stuff. Not sure why they don't just write 18 in all the boxes but I digress.

The alternative is point buys. You start with 8 points in each stat and receive a certain number of points to distribute among your stats.

Forcing everyone to start with low stats isn't as much of a problem as people make it out to be as long as:

Everyone has similarly poor stats
Your DM is playing the right kind of game


I've never heard of "d20 standard" before and can't find anything related to an actual system with that name. Either he just meant 3.5 or he means his personal poorly thought out houserules which he's named d20 Standard. In that case, run.

The +stats at each level is interesting with the low stats. Normally you'd gain one point every 4 levels. It's an interesting rule but pretty breakable. Just take any class that only uses one stat- such as Wizard- and boost that stat to insane levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

If this is an SRD (non core) game:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures

Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian, with a greatsword.

If you want to make a tank that uses a combat style that is rewarded in 3.5e rather than which doesn't work in 3.5e instead, read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

And look at this example I wrote up:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

Also:


Either he just meant 3.5 or he means his personal poorly thought out houserules which he's named d20 Standard. In that case, run.

SECOND THIS!!!

Also, you linked to myth-weavers -- is this an online game we could actually look at the ad for, to give you an idea of what it seems like the GM is doing?

[Wander]

We are using http://www.d20srd.org/, I guess the different rolls and stat gains are homebrew though. Maybe he thought the +1 every level would make up for the beginning roll system he used? I really have no clue.

Also I apologize if it seemed like I was asking for a top-tier hyper optimized character or something like that, I really just wanted a few tips or maybe a shove in the right direction. I actually wanted to make a fighter in the beginning, however we already had one. We also have a barbarian, and I don't think the DM wants two of the same class running around.

-Second .... I looked at your Character sheet and there are some mistakes:
>medium doesn't grant any modifiers on size (for armorclass or anything else); where do you got that idea from?; every size category bigger than medium gives a cumulative -1 size penalty to AC and every size category smaller gives a cumulative +1 size modifier to AC
>you have a base attack bonus of +1 (where melee and ranged bonus are calculated)
>your base saves depend on your class; as a ranger you'd have +2 to fortitude and reflex at level 1

Sorry but I didn't mean to link that character sheet. I know it's all messed up, it was just something I was messing with and probably did it completely wrong.

Another thing that is causing me some confusion is the rules that were set. I understand were using http://www.d20srd.org/, which I suppose is just d20 core? I guess he threw in some homebrew rules for whatever reason, but as some of you have said it seems off.

I really like the theme of the ranger, the survival and tracking, having a pet etc. I'd like to somehow make the class work, I'll definitely get with the GM and try to fix up my stats. Could any of you give me what the minimum I should be going for to make a melee ranger work? I'm guessing something like this?

STR: 16
DEX :16
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

I would like to use some of the special class suggestions ( i.e. swift hunter ), which look pretty cool. I think he's just trying to stick to the core rules, so I don't know if I could do it.

[Wander]

If this is an SRD (non core) game:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures

Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian, with a greatsword.

If you want to make a tank that uses a combat style that is rewarded in 3.5e rather than which doesn't work in 3.5e instead, read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

And look at this example I wrote up:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

Also:



SECOND THIS!!!

Also, you linked to myth-weavers -- is this an online game we could actually look at the ad for, to give you an idea of what it seems like the GM is doing?

Can't believe I linked that! I actually meant to link http://www.d20srd.org/, which is apparently what were following.

[Gavinfoxx]

D20srd is NOT Core D&D.

To play D&D, you need 'Core', which is the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. These are physical books.

In fact, the SRD, and thus, D20srd intentionally leaves vital bits of information out, to require you to have those books -- like, say, how to generate characters and ability scores, or how to advance characters. D20srd is 'The SRD, and some extra OGL content', NOT core! It's a great reference, and it has the errata, but it is NOT everything!

It sounds like the GM is just making stuff up to fill in the blanks, rather than having the books, which are required to play the game.

If you want a fanmade guide to what D&D stuff you are allowed to have for free on the web, read this:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0

If you want to play a D&D-3.5e-like-game without illegally downloading books or buying some used books, or searching for links we aren't supposed to mention on this website, you can use some of the character generation and advancement rules from Pathfinder, at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/, which are free, not affiliated with Wizards of the Coast, similar to but slightly different from D&D 3.5e.

[Studoku]

Another thing that is causing me some confusion is the rules that were set. I understand were using http://www.d20srd.org/, which I suppose is just d20 core? I guess he threw in some homebrew rules for whatever reason, but as some of you have said it seems off.
These are the d20 3.5 rules, but not the complete rules. They're also found in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. The SRD, annoyingly, misses out character creation and a few other pieces so at you need to own or have access to those books.

There's nothing inherantly wrong with a DM using houserules if they know what they're doing but it'd help to know what those houserules are. If he's just houseruling because he doesn't know the rules then it's not going to go well.

If you want to play a D&D-3.5e-like-game without illegally downloading books or buying some used books, or searching for links we aren't supposed to mention on this website, you can use some of the character generation and advancement rules from Pathfinder, at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/, which are free, not affiliated with Wizards of the Coast, similar to but slightly different from D&D 3.5e.
Playing Pathfinder instead of 3.5 might be a good idea if none of you have the books. It's the same system but with a few (mostly positive) changes and everything* is available for free.

*All the important stuff anyway.

[denthor]

These stats:
STR: 14
DEX :14
CON: 11
INT: 9
WIS: 11
CHA: 7

Are really, really, really, really, really bad. Like, extremely aberrant for how D&D 3.5e does stat rolls, bad. Like possibly unplayable bad, and maybe even 'below the minimum you are supposed to have when playing the game.' Talk to your GM about getting 28, 30, or 32 point buy.

I disagree yes they are bad compared to what most want to run. I could have a fun time Role Playing this character.

3.5 edition. Take listen, spot and hide(what ever they use for sneaking). Healing would be a nice skill if you can afford the points You are a hillbilly,mountain man with that Chrasima run with it be surly, kurt, a loner.

With the intelligence be sterotype you like what you like dislike what you do not like. Your favored enemy.

Be the party scout out front alone. Do not go to elegant parties.

Feats:

[nedz]

The Elite array is a good metric for stats: it's what all of the example characters use.
The Elite array is 15,14,13,12,10,8
These are not good stats, just a baseline.

In 3.5 you frequently need stats of at least 13 to qualify for certain basic feats.

[Feint's End]

I really like the theme of the ranger, the survival and tracking, having a pet etc. I'd like to somehow make the class work, I'll definitely get with the GM and try to fix up my stats. Could any of you give me what the minimum I should be going for to make a melee ranger work? I'm guessing something like this?

STR: 16
DEX :16
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 8

I would like to use some of the special class suggestions ( i.e. swift hunter ), which look pretty cool. I think he's just trying to stick to the core rules, so I don't know if I could do it.

If you can change your stats go druid. Can do everything the ranger ever can dream of doing + has a better animal companion. If you really want the Tracking just take Track as your first level feat. Also your group will appreciate actually having a full caster.

put your two highest stats in constitution and wisdom (maybe even con higher ... because your wildshape is depending on con more than on wisdom)

edit: if you absolutely want to go melee ranger you don't need to bump dex since you get TWF for free without needing to meet the prerequisites. I'm not gonna lie to you ... going THF is smarter and using your Bow as a secondary combat style. Problem is just that the Fighter and Barbarian will constantly outdamage you and will take every Two Handed weapon before you can get your hands on one. TWF sucks ... especially in core.

If you go TWF something like this would be nice:
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
take the bow combat style ... that will make you a decent range combatant ... after all you still got full bab and your to hit will be ok at range. You will do ok damage in melee but don't expect anything to crazy to happen.

As already said ... if you want it just for the flavour (tracking survival and the animal) .... play a druid.

[Wander]

If you can change your stats go druid. Can do everything the ranger ever can dream of doing + has a better animal companion. If you really want the Tracking just take Track as your first level feat. Also your group will appreciate actually having a full caster.

put your two highest stats in constitution and wisdom (maybe even con higher ... because your wildshape is depending on con more than on wisdom)

We actually already have a druid, as well as a barbarian, fighter, rogue, and barbarian. The only thing really left for me was Ranger, so that's why I'm trying to make it work. I really do like the class, and it sucks to learn that it's pretty much terrible and I'm better of just playing something else entirely.

To be honest a lot of the more advances classes confuse the hell out of me, so I would like to play something swift hunter if it's a more viable ranger but really have no clue about it.

I guess if I'm stuck with base Ranger I'll try to get better stats. Also thank you Denthor for the skill advice, we do have a rogue so I'm not sure if I would still need hide?

EDIT: Thanks for the advice, I'm curious as to taking the bow specialization at level 2 though. How would I get dual wielding if took bows? I don't think we have anyone using 2H swords, so I might try the 2HF thing you talked about with spiked armor.

[wootage]

Wow were you guys doing this? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html

:D

I lika rangers too, and I lika two-weapon rangers. Just 'cause, no Drizz't complex here (although I met RA Salvatore once at a signing - great guy).

I'll tell you, that's tough to play in DnD 3.5. They don't have the HPs to stand up to the big hits, they don't have the agility to get missed reliably, they don't wear heavy armor, etc. And two-weapon is worse than 1 big weapon, unfortunately. Rogues do it because it's better than 1 weapon, but rangers can use the better options - two hander or shield and 1-hander.

However, none of that really matters. The great thing about DnD is that your GM can (and should) tune the adventure to your characters. The point is to have a good, challenging time to where even if you lose, you had fun. Kicking your butt because you didn't min-max your characters to optimal levels is not anywhere in the job description :)

So don't stress too much about your ranger's build. You do want enough strengths so he's an asset, but after that, just play teh game.

If you do go two weapon, allow me to point out that although swords get the higher crit chance than axes (and why is that... ? ) a one handed axe and a hand axe (light weapon) in the off-hand is a solid combination, and also quite RP for a ranger char. Axes are far more useful in the woods than swords ; ) Add a hunting knife and a bow for game and you've got a fighting ranger.

You could also have some fun with spear / hand axe combo (I believe a short spear can be a 1-hand weapon) and when looking these things up, I saw a dwarven exotic double-ended weapon called an Urgrosh(?) that would be pretty cool to see in action.

Whatever you decide, have fun with it!


Edit: took another look at your scores. If you are not going to spellcast and are going to redo your points by GM permission, you could just flip your Int and Wis scores so you get some more skill points to spend. Otherwise you are good for a "basic" DnD game where everyone is just starting out.

[Gavinfoxx]

Swift Hunter has a specific meaning on this forum.

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html

[wootage]

We actually already have a druid, as well as a barbarian, fighter, rogue, and barbarian. The only thing really left for me was Ranger, so that's why I'm trying to make it work. I really do like the class, and it sucks to learn that it's pretty much terrible and I'm better of just playing something else entirely.

To be honest a lot of the more advances classes confuse the hell out of me, so I would like to play something swift hunter if it's a more viable ranger but really have no clue about it.

I guess if I'm stuck with base Ranger I'll try to get better stats. Also thank you Denthor for the skill advice, we do have a rogue so I'm not sure if I would still need hide?

EDIT: Thanks for the advice, I'm curious as to taking the bow specialization at level 2 though. How would I get dual wielding if took bows? I don't think we have anyone using 2H swords, so I might try the 2HF thing you talked about with spiked armor.

No, rangers don't stink. Any class looks bad when held up to another class's specialties. Check your class's archery against Rogues, for example. Ranger = machine gun at higher levels compared to them.

And re your L2 choices, those are combat "style" choices that automatically grant you certain feats. As you gain levels you will be able to choose more feats, including any you passed up.

But as always, a specialized character will be a lot stronger than a generalist because they're stacking the effect of the feats they have on top of one another. So don't stress too much about being everything in every fight ;) If your rogue's the archer and you need another fighter, go fight.

(just a note, personally, I'd have the rogue stealth-flanking and backstabbing and you pincushioning everything in sight, especially enemy archers, but that's just me ).

[Feint's End]

We actually already have a druid, as well as a barbarian, fighter, rogue, and barbarian. The only thing really left for me was Ranger, so that's why I'm trying to make it work. I really do like the class, and it sucks to learn that it's pretty much terrible and I'm better of just playing something else entirely.

To be honest a lot of the more advances classes confuse the hell out of me, so I would like to play something swift hunter if it's a more viable ranger but really have no clue about it.

I guess if I'm stuck with base Ranger I'll try to get better stats. Also thank you Denthor for the skill advice, we do have a rogue so I'm not sure if I would still need hide?

EDIT: Thanks for the advice, I'm curious as to taking the bow specialization at level 2 though. How would I get dual wielding if took bows? I don't think we have anyone using 2H swords, so I might try the 2HF thing you talked about with spiked armor.

If the Barbarians aren't twohanding then they shouldn't play barbarian.

You got me wrong though. The problem you have is not that ranger sucks ... they are pretty decent actually. The problem is that your group doesn't need one. You got a skillmonkey ranger (which you could be), three melees (each of whom gonna outdamage you) and a nature guy who will also overshadow you in the nature aspect. Now I know it is very low op and if you want to play a class for flavour go for it ... it's after all your first game and D&D is supposed to be fun. The only thing is that it's boring if you have two very similar characters in a group and earlier or later one of them gonna feel weaker compared to the other one.

Just think about you saying "look how great I can sneak" and the rogue says "I have better stats ... better leave the sneaking to me" ... now put the druid and his animal companion or the Barbarians and their melee ability into the same spot and you will probably look pretty sad :/.

The mainthing is not that the ranger sucks but that your group will render any role you pick up useless except for them actually knowing about that problem and everybody focusing on a different style of combat/utility

A group setup that could work if everybody wants to stick to those classes:
-> Rogue focuses on social encounters and locks, devices with a bit of archery mixed in (note that in core rogues do way better with melee weapons due to the ability to flank)
-> Fighter focuses on Tripping with a Guisarme and a 2 level monkdip (for improved unarmed strike, improved grapple and combat reflexes)
-> Barbarian: THF normal barbarian (as I described for you)
-> Barbarian2 : focusing on highest possible Con and getting best possible defenses
-> Druid just does his stuff because Druids can do almot everything without putting effort in it
-> you take up TWF and focus on flanking with the rogue and your animal companion (ask your dm for a full progression on your animal companion like the druid gets ... it is entirely reasonable), later take on some minor buffs, be your groups scout skillwise and focus on sneaking around and high spot and listen checks

Try to talk to your group to find some agreement on who does what

[Wander]

Actually Wootage, it kind of was what we were doing...except we could decide the order of the stats. Thank you for the advice by the way. I'm pretty sure our group is now : Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, ( Looking for a cleric ). The druid and fighter turned out to be a no show so were no longer going with six, we would do four but are looking for a cleric.

The Barbarian is using two handers, but I think he's focusing more on axes. He's also a goblin...which definitely has its drawbacks when it comes to his damage. That's the main reason I wanted to go melee, the rogue is focusing more on archery / utility like you said. I guess with only one other melee I would have a bigger role in tanking if something happens to him ( hopefully not.. ). I'd also fulfill the nature aspect, tracking, pet, etc.

I had one more slightly off topic question. Are other players able to ride your pets / mounts? I was thinking of taking a riding dog at level 4, thinking it would be funny to have the goblin use it as a mount.

[wootage]

Actually Wootage, it kind of was what we were doing...except we could decide the order of the stats. Thank you for the advice by the way. I'm pretty sure our group is now : Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, ( Looking for a cleric ). The druid and fighter turned out to be a no show so were no longer going with six, we would do four but are looking for a cleric.

The Barbarian is using two handers, but I think he's focusing more on axes. He's also a goblin...which definitely has its drawbacks when it comes to his damage. That's the main reason I wanted to go melee, the rogue is focusing more on archery / utility like you said. I guess with only one other melee I would have a bigger role in tanking if something happens to him ( hopefully not.. ). I'd also fulfill the nature aspect, tracking, pet, etc.

I had one more slightly off topic question. Are other players able to ride your pets / mounts? I was thinking of taking a riding dog at level 4, thinking it would be funny to have the goblin use it as a mount.

Ranger animal companions? I would think not :)

[Feint's End]

Actually nothing stops him from doing it if you are ok with it. Just make sure your dog is trained for riding.

Tanking doesn't really exist in D&D and of the few things that actually can pull something similar off the ranger has acess to none of them.
Even though the Barbarian is a goblin he will do more melee damage and it won't hamper his surviveability in any way (actually increase it slightly through the first few levels where the +1 to ac matters). I suggest you ask the Rogue if he could go melee and you focus on the Ranged Combat Style with some Support in THF if necessary. You also could go tripping though it is not really optimal on a ranger (doesn't suck neither but just not very good).

[Turion]

Actually Wootage, it kind of was what we were doing...except we could decide the order of the stats. Thank you for the advice by the way. I'm pretty sure our group is now : Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, ( Looking for a cleric ). The druid and fighter turned out to be a no show so were no longer going with six, we would do four but are looking for a cleric.

The Barbarian is using two handers, but I think he's focusing more on axes. He's also a goblin...which definitely has its drawbacks when it comes to his damage. That's the main reason I wanted to go melee, the rogue is focusing more on archery / utility like you said. I guess with only one other melee I would have a bigger role in tanking if something happens to him ( hopefully not.. ). I'd also fulfill the nature aspect, tracking, pet, etc.

I had one more slightly off topic question. Are other players able to ride your pets / mounts? I was thinking of taking a riding dog at level 4, thinking it would be funny to have the goblin use it as a mount.

Okay, here's why a lot of people are recommending archery over melee:
Assuming you're level one, wearing studded leather armor, with your stats, you have an armor class of 15, and 8 HP. Let's say you go up against a barbarian with the same stats (but rearranged)
Str 14
Dex 11
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 9
Cha 7
Wearing scale mail. He has an AC of 14, and 14 HP.
For parity, I'm assuming you're both swinging greatswords (you're not TWFing until level 2, minimum), and both took weapon focus (not recommended, but it was mentioned).
The barbarian rages when combat starts. He now has 18 str, 18 Con, 16 HP, and an AC of 12.
You swing at him with a +4 bonus to hit for an average of 11 damage (minimum 6, maximum 16; 10% chance to crit). You hit him on a 8 or more, giving you a 60% chance to hit.
He swings at you with a +6 bonus to hit for an average of 15 damage (10 minimum, 20 maximum, 10% crit chance). He hits you on an 8 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to hit.
So, you each have an equal chance of hitting the other. The problem is that he one-shots you on a minimum damage roll, while you can only do the same on a maximum roll or a crit.

With archery, on the other hand, the game changes. There's a decent chance that you'll go first, because you have better initiative. Assuming this, you shoot him in the face for 1d8 (average 4.5), and run 30 feet back. If you were more than 30 feet away to begin with, he can't catch you at all, even on a charge, and there's a good chance he goes after a less nimble teammate, as you're not trying to put 4' of steel through his face. If he does get to close to you, you can take a run action, and kite him again.
Archery does have its own set of problems, but they don't tend to kick in until around 5th level or so, and tend to be wizard related.
(if you'd like the numbers on two weapon fighting, just ask. It's more complex than the above example, but the results are roughly the same.)

[Seharvepernfan]

Honestly, I think you should switch places with your friend who plays the rogue. That way, he can be a competent archer, and you can be a competent two-weapon fighter (relatively, anyway). Flank with your barbarian buddy. Use two shortswords (you can imagine them as being longer, but thinner, and I don't think your DM would care too much, or even use a rapier and a shortsword).

If you can move your stats around, go with something like:
Str 11
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 9
Cha 7

You could even take quick-draw and combine it with TWF to throw two weapons a round, then pull out your swords (or just use daggers and throw/stab with them interchangeably). Use nets against big tough enemies, and acids/alchemists fires against enemies with high ACs (armor class), and holy waters against demons and devils.

EDIT: Your dex isn't high enough for TWF in this case. Maybe be an elf? Or persuade your DM to shave a point off Str or Int and add it to dex?

If your DM and friend are okay with it, I strongly suggest this. It'll do what you want it to do, and you'll have more fun.

[Feint's End]

@Turion: I don't know what you want to proove with this test because it actually prooves nothing. The Barbarian would still win on an open field or not if he is at max range ... are there trees etc etc? You try to measure something that's not measureable but if you want to know which character will most likely contribute more to combat? The barbarian will cut it ... even if you play archery.
Thing is ... the Ranger has other advantages like more and better access to skills.

You shouldn't measure Characters by how much damage they can deal because according to this way of calculating Wizards suck compared to Barbarians and don't even get me started on Clerics.

[Turion]

@Turion: I don't know what you want to proove with this test because it actually prooves nothing. The Barbarian would still win on an open field or not if he is at max range ... are there trees etc etc? You try to measure something that's not measureable but if you want to know which character will most likely contribute more to combat? The barbarian will cut it ... even if you play archery.
Thing is ... the Ranger has other advantages like more and better access to skills.

You shouldn't measure Characters by how much damage they can deal because according to this way of calculating Wizards suck compared to Barbarians and don't even get me started on Clerics.

My point was, mostly, if he gets into melee, he has a decent chance of getting one-shotted, and a poor chance of doing enough damage to matter. An archer build decreases the chances of getting murderated, and indirectly increases his overall contribution.
Also, I'm not firing on all cylinders at the moment, so there is that. :smallredface:

[Feint's End]

My point was, mostly, if he gets into melee, he has a decent chance of getting one-shotted, and a poor chance of doing enough damage to matter. An archer build decreases the chances of getting murderated, and indirectly increases his overall contribution.
Also, I'm not firing on all cylinders at the moment, so there is that. :smallredface:

Haha I see :smalltongue: ... sorry if I sounded rude. You got a point there after all. I agree that going melee as a ranger is probably a secondary thing and not really desireable. If you are ranged you can also spare one more point in Con (12 instead of 14 is totally fine) and put it into Wisdom or Intelligence.

edit:

EDIT: Your dex isn't high enough for TWF in this case. Maybe be an elf? Or persuade your DM to shave a point off Str or Int and add it to dex?
You know that the automatic feats of the Ranger can even be taken if he doesn't fullfill the prerequisites?

[Wander]

Thanks for your advice. I don't think I'll be able to switch places with the rogue though. It's his first game of d&d as well, and he seemed pretty excited to play the class. I think he's playing it for the lockpicking / flavor just as much as he is the combat aspect.

Plus I would kind of feel like a jerk, he's pretty happy with his character and I wouldn't want to make him create a new one. Also the main reason I don't want to be an archer is well...I don't really like playing archers. A bit of archery mixed in is fine, but I just think a lot of the stuff you can do in melee range is a lot more fun.

Assuming I fixed up my stats and get some more reasonable numbers, I think I'll try to make two weapon fighting work. Do any of you think it would be viable at all to use two one handed weapons? I could do longsword / shortsword, but I just like the idea of two longswords.

Alternatively I thought of using two bastard swords, but the waste of a feat on EWT and the -4 hurt. It does have a d10, but I'm not sure if that would make up for it. So I'm thinking my options are: LS / LS, BS / BS, LS / SH? Also it seems weapon focus is not recommended, what are some better TWF feats? Power attack, dodge? I was thinking spring attack could work nicely. Since I can attack while I move, wouldn't this put me out of danger? I thought that would help diminish the drawbacks of having crappy AC / HP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Alternatively I thought of using two bastard swords, but the waste of a feat on EWT and the -4 hurt

Never do this. Ever ever ever ever ever. D&D hates you for having the GALL to think you could actually do something cool like this. Trust me, never ever do this. Even if I got these feats for FREE:

Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword

I probably wouldn't do this and would just use a Guisarme... because doing that fighting style is such a bad idea.

In a very, very profound way, the game HATES two weapon fighting.

[Feint's End]

If you really really really want to go TWF keep your dex low (you will get the TWF feats for free anyways so around 12-14 should be fine) and Strength as high as possible (18 .... no point less)

take up the Two Weapon Fighting Style. Fight with a Longsword in your mainhand and a shortsword in your offhand.

At Level one your to hit will be +3/+3 with a damage of 1d8+4 on your mainhand and a damage of 1d6+2 on your offhand. Don't expect anyone to cheer for you but it's gonna be at least a decent damage for the first few level. Power Attack is generally not worth the trade ... if you manage to get a really got to hit it might be worth it later in the game but it definitely isn't at the beginning. (Around level 10ish convince your dm to give you a permanent item of Truestrike :smallbiggrin: .... then go full pa ... you will probably need it)

As your favoured enemy pick the Race you expect to be your most common enemy (in my experience Orcs or Goblinoids are a safe bet for most beginner campaigns).

Another option you could actually pull of is that of a Tripper. For three feats (4 with Spiked Chain though that is optional) and a wolf companion focusing on tripping you can go pretty good. This option would probably be slightly more fun and more viable but it boils down to what you would rather play.

edit: Feats for Tripping
-Combat Expertise and Improved Trip
-Combat Reflexes (not necessary but with reach and more aooes you can trip enemies even before they reach you)
-EWP (Spiked Chain) (optional but the best core option for it ... another one is going with the Guisarme and some form of 5ft trip option like unarmed attacks -> a two level monkdip will give you that as well as wis to ac if you wear no armor)
-if you can get it take Knockdown afterwards (also optional but makes tripping easier accesible)
-Power Attack (optional ... but after all you are a two handed fighter with a high strength score)

max out strength and at least 14 in dex and con

[Wander]

Never do this. Ever ever ever ever ever. D&D hates you for having the GALL to think you could actually do something cool like this. Trust me, never ever do this. Even if I got these feats for FREE:

Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword

I probably wouldn't do this and would just use a Guisarme... because doing that fighting style is such a bad idea.

Not even if you got them for free? Sounds like it was a pretty bad idea then haha. I'm not even sure OTWF is available to me, so that makes it even worse.

[Feint's End]

In a very, very profound way, the game HATES two weapon fighting.

The game with access to all books hates TWF .... in core the game doesn't even aknowledge something like TWF.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not even if you got them for free? Sounds like it was a pretty bad idea then haha. I'm not even sure OTWF is available to me, so that makes it even worse.

Read the Horizon Tripper article and look up the Horizon Tripper I built at level 5. Look up what the feats do, and look up Improved Trip, Knock-Down (look up the average damage on that weapon he is wielding), Stand Still, look up the rules regarding Prone, etc.

Notice how even though that Ranger/Barbarian has two weapon fighting, he entirely ignores it.

Also look up how big an area someone with an Enlarge Person and a Reach weapon threatens. And then realize that whenever someone leaves any of those squares without five foot stepping or tumbling correctly, he makes an attack of opportunity.

[Feint's End]

Read the Horizon Tripper article and look up the Horizon Tripper I built at level 5. Look up what the feats do, and look up Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Stand Still, etc.

Notice how even though that Ranger/Barbarian has two weapon fighting, he entirely ignores it.

I'm not sure something like the Horizon Tripper is an option for him .... mainly because what he wants is a flavourful Ranger. You can pull of the the tripping tricks with just Ranger levels though.

18 levels ranger + 2 level monk (take monk levels very early) is still a pretty decent build -> ask you dm for the Natural Bond feat (increases effective druid level by 3 to calculate the power of your animal companion -> that is like an animal companion of a ranger 6 levels higher)

you could get everything by level 3 -> 1 Level Ranger / 2 Level monk
Combat Expertise at level 1, improved trip as level 3, combat reflexes as bonus from being a monk 2, improved unarmed strike as a bonus from monk 1 (and increased damage) -> use a Guisarme

if you are human get either power attack or knock down as a bonusfeat

If you don't want to take monk (what I could totally understand)
Take human and get improved trip as your bonusfeat-> pick up Combat expertise as your regular one; level 3 combat reflexes
Probably take 1 level monk (what I'd suggest) or one level fighter (in this case get EWP (Spiked Chain)) to get improved unarmed attack otherwise you have to wait till level 6 for the opportunity to get EWP (Spiked Chain)

edit: in the end it comes down to what you want from this character :smallsmile: ... do you want a TWFer or do you like the idea of tripping enemies and controlling the battlefield. The second option is without a doubt the stronger one but you might be entirely fine with the first one too.

[Gavinfoxx]

A ranger has little to nothing to do with combat styles, and everything to do with, you know... going and actually protecting wilderness and traveling through wilderness. They could fight however they want, you know? A fighting style is a fighting style, not an identity.

[Feint's End]

A ranger has little to nothing to do with combat styles, and everything to do with, you know... going and actually protecting wilderness and traveling through wilderness. They could fight however they want, you know? A fighting style is a fighting style, not an identity.

Agreed .... it's not like the two fighting styles are the only ways how you can play a ranger.

[Wander]

Tripping seems kind of fun, do I absolutely need the spiked chain to make it work? I'm also not too thrilled on using the Guisarme, but otherwise I would have to trip unarmed and I'm guessing that would not work. Could I make it work with TWF?

I was wondering if it would be worth it to take a level in barbarian? Rage looks like a fun ability, and fast movement seems useful. Or would I only get them while I'm a barbarian?

So if I decide not to go down the tripping route, seems like my options are 2H / Spikes and TWF. Assuming I decide to do this, what feats should I be looking at? I was thinking Combat Reflexes and Spring Attack for my first two. Then maybe Dodge or TWD next?

[Seharvepernfan]

You know that the automatic feats of the Ranger can even be taken if he doesn't fullfill the prerequisites?

I was saying that if he changed to rogue, he'd need 15 dex.

I always say that the people on these boards go a bit overboard in saying how good or bad certain styles are, but they're right when it comes to using two bastard swords. Do NOT do that.

If you really want to be a TWF with those stats, in a low-optimization game, consider taking improved shield bash and using a heavy spiked shield in your off-hand. Technically, the heavy shield is a one-handed weapon and would leave you with a -4 penalty to both of your attacks...but I bet your DM doesn't know that. It's still a suboptimal choice, so I honestly wouldn't feel bad about it. If you do that, you'll be able to make attacks with the shield (at 1d6+1 damage) and keep the +2 AC from the shield.

Use a scimitar in your main hand (1d6+2, with a critical range of 18-20), and keep a warhammer for back up. Use the scimitar against enemies that can be affected by critical hits, especially your Favored Enemies (because your bonus damage against them gets multiplied as well). Use the warhammer against enemies who are not vulnerable to crits (undead, constructs, etc). You could just as easily use a longsword instead of a scimitar.

Also, if you like the shield idea, but don't want to technically be cheating, use a short sword in your non-shield hand, and declare the short sword hand to be your off-hand. (so, shield at 1d6+2 and short sword at 1d6+1)

Wear a chain shirt, and never take it off. Ever. Upgrade it to mithril when you can, and get either a darkwood heavy shield or a mithril heavy shield as well.

Carry javelins or shortspears (or tridents) in your sword hand before combat, so you can throw it first at enemies who are far away, then draw your sword after. If someone gets within melee range before you have a chance to switch, you can still hit them with your shield without any trouble. In fact, always wear a spiked gauntlet on your sword hand, so you can attack with it as well, even when holding a spear in that hand.

There you go, 18 AC with decent weapons, using only two feats (one of which is free). Upgrade your Con at 4th, and your Wis at 8th. Buy the druid a wand/wands of Bulls Str/Cats Grace/Bears Endurance and have him/her cast them on you before combat (you can use them yourself at 4th level on up). Ask your DM if you can buy wands with less than 50 charges, at an equally reduced price.

[Gavinfoxx]

Spring attack line of feats is generally terrible as well. Trust me. You only get to make one attack, and you could've Tumbled where you wanted to go instead-- note how that ranger/barbarian has high Tumble. You want to be making lots of attacks at full to hit, which means attacks of opportunity. And Guisarme is just like a spiked chain, just make sure to get armor spikes so you threaten immediately adjacent to yourself. To Trip you want to use two handed, tripping weapons.

Also, your options, if you want to be competent, are:

-Two handed only (no two weapon fighting), with a Greatsword or a single heavy spiked steel shield wielded in two hands
-Guisarme or Spiked Chain for Reach Tripping, with armor spikes for close in if you have a guisarme
-Two handed with two weapon fighting, with armor spikes and a greatsword, or armor spikes and a single heavy spiked steel shield, wielded in two hands

In no situation are you ever NOT going to have two hands on a weapon.

[Seharvepernfan]

Keep in mind that if you're significantly more optimized than your party members, the other players may not enjoy the game as much, and your DM may nerfbat you.

[Feint's End]

Tripping seems kind of fun, do I absolutely need the spiked chain to make it work? I'm also not too thrilled on using the Guisarme, but otherwise I would have to trip unarmed and I'm guessing that would not work. Could I make it work with TWF?

I was wondering if it would be worth it to take a level in barbarian? Rage looks like a fun ability, and fast movement seems useful. Or would I only get them while I'm a barbarian?

So if I decide not to go down the tripping route, seems like my options are 2H / Spikes and TWF. Assuming I decide to do this, what feats should I be looking at? I was thinking Combat Reflexes and Spring Attack for my first two. Then maybe Dodge or TWD next?

The reason why you use Tripping on a Weapon with reach is because you can make Attacks of Opportunity against enemies moving up to you (except for those with reach themselves) so you can actually disable enemies who try to get past you and/or before they deal damage to you or your allies.
Well the thing is .... you need a way to threaten adjacent fields and there are just a few ways to do this. Guisarme just can attack at reach so you need unarmed trips while the Spiked Chain can attack both (5ft and 10 ft range) but needs a feat.

Depending on your Fighting Style the level in barbarian might or might not be useful but I'd rather take one level in monk or fighter for the feats you get (with the level in fighter you can actually pull off the tripper pretty good at level 3).

Combat Reflexes is just good if you have a reach weapon because you won't usually have more than one attack of opportunity a round (at most) if you don't have reach while having reach pretty much guarantees those. Spring Attack needs two feats before you can take it .... Dodge is one of the prerequisites. In general it is a terrible feat due to the harsh requirements.

Dodge and Two Weapon Defense are both extremely terrible feats and should never be taken.

If you want to go the Two Weapon route take Improved Initiative and play Half Orc with 20 strength (you don't need feats till improved critical comes up). If you want to go Two Handed style (with greatsword) take a human and pick Power attack and probably Point Blank Shot, because you can take Archery combat style and be a reasonable good range combatant at the same time as melee. Probably pick up Quick Draw later to swap faster between weapons.

edit: I agree on not over optimizing ... while tripping would be the best route it might be too much for a beginner group to handle.

My suggestion: pick a Greatsword and put your first level feats into Power Attack and Quick Draw (or Cleave) ... at second level take Archery style for ranged support. Now you have a reasonable Damage Dealer at Range and at close range with all the awesome skills of every Ranger.

At Level 3 (pick cleave here) assuming following stats
str 18
dex 14
con 14
int 10
wis 12
cha 8

you look at
-a ranged attack of (Assuming masterwork composite longbow with a strength enhancement of +4) and using rapidshot:
2 attacks at +4 to hit and 1d8+4 damage each

-a melee attack of (assuming masterwork greatsword) and using power attack (exchanging all 3 points of base attack bonus for damage):
1 attack at +5 to hit and 2d6+12 damage

edit 2: oh and if you kill an enemy with the attack you get an immediate attack against another adjacent foe with cleave

This build is pretty simple and straight forward and will help you work in almost every situation :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are the good feats in the SRD for unmounted, nonmagical, melee combatants that rely on feats for their schtick (ie, not rogues with lots of bonus damage):

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicFeats.htm

Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain
Improved Trip
Improved Initiative
Martial Weapon Proficiency Guisarme (if you are a Cloistered Cleric or something)
Power Attack
Improved Shield Bash (if two handing a shield)
Hold the Line
Knock-Down
Reckless Offense
Stand-Still

[Wander]

Thanks Feint's End, I really like that build. Looks straightforward enough and I always liked 2H swords, the decent bow damage is a plus to. Any pet that you would recommend? I'm guessing wolf since it can trip, but riding dog looks okay as well. Now the only thing I have left to figure out is skills, which I think someone already recommended last page.

Thanks for the advice Gavinfoxx, I was definitely looking at the wrong feats earlier. Sorry for all the questions guys, but I appreciate all the help.

[Gavinfoxx]

A riding dog trained for war is better than a wolf. Get it some barding and go to town.


Also, the problem with archery in core is how feat intensive it is. In order to feel competent at it in the srd environment, I'd need to have: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, improved precise shot, far shot, and I would be egging for improved rapid shot from beyond srd. This is insane, like how feat intensive twf is. Compare to Greatsword fighting which needs power attack.

[Wander]

A riding dog trained for war is better than a wolf. Get it some barding and go to town.


Also, the problem with archery in core is how feat intensive it is. In order to feel competent at it in the srd environment, I'd need to have: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, improved precise shot, far shot, and I would be egging for improved rapid shot from beyond srd. This is insane, like how feat intensive twf is. Compare to Greatsword fighting which needs power attack.

I read that riding dogs are automatically trained for war? Not sure if this is true, or if I have to do anything specific.

[Feint's End]

Thanks Feint's End, I really like that build. Looks straightforward enough and I always liked 2H swords, the decent bow damage is a plus to. Any pet that you would recommend? I'm guessing wolf since it can trip, but riding dog looks okay as well. Now the only thing I have left to figure out is skills, which I think someone already recommended last page.

Thanks for the advice Gavinfoxx, I was definitely looking at the wrong feats earlier. Sorry for all the questions guys, but I appreciate all the help.

Well basically the Riding Dog with the right tricks that's what Gavinfoxx is referring too (ergo attack, halt etc etc). And I second Riding Dog too since it is the strongest animal available to you at that Level.
I really would ask my Dm (if I were you) if he would allow use of the Natural Bond feat which increases your effective druid level by 3 when calculating boni to your animal companion. Take it as your Level 6 feat if he allows that.
The level for calculating boni on your animal companion is usually that of a druid of half your ranger level -> with Natural Bond this increases by 3.
(meaning at level 20 for example you have the animal companion of a level 13 druid= 10 from ranger (half level) and 3 from natural bond). If your Dm is reasonable you could ask him for the Animal Companion of a Druid (the Druid class is stronger andyway and giving a Ranger a fullpowered animal companion is something WotC should have done anyways) -> That would be a pretty great move of him and make your in combat contribution somewhat more on par with the other members of your group :smallsmile:

@Gavinfoxx: the build I posted isn't intended to be an Archer ... the archerstyle is for free and the overall build uses both because it is cheap in feats (Basically the only real investion is power attack). While you usually should take those feats they are not necessary for this build. The focus here is on shooting for 1 or 2 rounds -> afterwards dropping the bow as a free action and pulling the weapon as a free action when the brawling starts. While not breaking damage records he will be able to keep up with his teammates and can make an excellent scout via the stealth and perception skills.

[Wander]

For the druid pets, are they essentially the same as the ranger ones just at the same level as the druid? I know there is the alternative pet list as well which seems to be what druids choose from. I'm guessing since the Ranger's pet level is cut in half I could only get a 10th level or higher pet at best. Would I also have access to the druid animal companion abilities? Like link, share spells, evasion etc.? I'm guessing I would get them just at half the rate.

[Feint's End]

For the druid pets, are they essentially the same as the ranger ones just at the same level as the druid? I know there is the alternative pet list as well which seems to be what druids choose from. I'm guessing since the Ranger's pet level is cut in half I could only get a 10th level or higher pet at best. Would I also have access to the druid animal companion abilities? Like link, share spells, evasion etc.? I'm guessing I would get them just at half the rate.

you use exactly the same list as the druid except for .... well ... you are basically just a druid of half you level. So look at the Druid's animal companion and calculate everything like you were a druid of half your ranger level. For example at Level 4 (getting the companion) you would be treated as if you are a druid of level 2.
Honestly though .... talk to your dm about giving you an animal companion like that of the Druid (also at first level and full level count).

[John Joe Johnso]

Hi,


For the druid pets, are they essentially the same as the ranger ones just at the same level as the druid?
Yes.


I know there is the alternative pet list as well which seems to be what druids choose from. I'm guessing since the Ranger's pet level is cut in half I could only get a 10th level or higher pet at best. Would I also have access to the druid animal companion abilities? Like link, share spells, evasion etc.? I'm guessing I would get them just at half the rate.
Page 48 of the Player's Handbook:
"This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name (see page 35), except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level."
In other words, yes sir.

I'd also just like to reiterate what everyone else has said about TWF: D&D 3.5 just doesn't like TWF, despite how awesome the idea is. :(

If you can convince your DM to re-roll your stats, I say go for TWF. IT is pretty cool to get that second attack in (since your friends are stuck with a single attack until about level 6.) With 15+ DEX and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, it is a LOT more viable option than taking a -6 on main hand attack and -10 on off-hand attack without the feat.

[Wander]

Thanks for clearing that up. Yea I'll definitely try to convince him to let me use druid levels for my animal companion. Half level does seem like a pretty steep drawback, wonder why they decided to that.

Yea I agree that TWF is a cool idea, it does suck that its not that great. I'm probably just going to stick with a 2h weapon right now, especially if I can't get a druid level companion. Also it just doesn't seem like there are many feats for it, or at least worthwhile ones.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some things for you to read:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129070
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1300
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

[Darrin]

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585).

Ok, so you want TWF + archery on the side, and your sources are "SRD only"? Is other online "Web Enhancement" material allowed as well?

If you're limited to just core weapons/feats, and you're not sure about armor spikes, then I'd recommend Greatsword + Improved Unarmed Strike. You can get 2x Power Attack damage on the greatsword, and 1x Power Attack damage on your unarmed strike.

Off the top of my head... Ranger 6/Fighter 14 should be able to get you the feats you need, and still leaves some room for archery. A Barbarian dip might help... I like the Wolf Totem for Improved Trip, of course, but there's also Whirling Frenzy and the Simple Barbarian that trades rage for Favored Enemy and the Archery Combat Style as a ranger. You could do both combat styles, then, and still do Wolf Totem for Improved Trip if you wanted it.

When I have more time, I can give you a more detailed level-by-level build if you'd like.

[Wander]

Well I asked the DM to reroll, apparently my stats are above average? We did already start but it was only a quick two hour session, and none of us are even past level 1 yet. I'm guessing others get pretty bad rolls as well so it might not matter, and we do get the +1 to a stat every level.

I'm pretty sure it's SRD only, doesn't seem like he wants to include anything else. I like your suggestion but I don't want my ranger level to be too low. Especially if my pet is at half my Ranger level, he would be pretty weak with 6 levels of Ranger.

The barbarian levels do sound pretty interesting, rage looked like a fun skill to have. Do you think I would be better off doing the TWF with a GS and unarmed, or just take the archery style at level 2 and use the GS? And sure, I would appreciate you doing that if you get the time.

Thanks for the links Gavinfoxx, reading over a lot of them now.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well I asked the DM to reroll, apparently my stats are above average?

Above average for OD&D, not for D&D 3.5e, which doesn't use such pitiful stat arrays or insane rolling methods. Make sense?

Look, if you want to be a good meleeist in SRD only, why not play a psychic warrior?

And Whirling Frenzy/Wolf Totem Barbarian is very useful in SRD only. It helps you make extra attacks, even on after a move action... letting you actually be a mobile, many attack using warrior.

Something that these things:

Two weapon fighting
Spring Attack
Flurry

don't let you do.

[Karnith]

Above average for OD&D, not for D&D 3.5e, which doesn't use such pitiful stat arrays or insane rolling methods. Make sense?
For reference, the stats posted in the OP are equivalent to a point buy of 19 (and distributed sub-optimally; you could achieve the same ability bonuses with a point buy of 16, and end up with Charisma 8). The "Standard" point buy recommended by the Dungeon Master's Guide is 25, and that's pretty low-powered/non-functional as it is, especially for characters who need more than one ability score to function (like, say, Rangers).

[Wander]

I see, I'm not sure why he decided to go with this system. At least my stats should even out around level 5 or so since I'll get an attribute point each level.

[Gavinfoxx]

I see, I'm not sure why he decided to go with this system. At least my stats should even out around level 5 or so since I'll get an attribute point each level.

You mean you'll be pumping strength and con?

[Wander]

Yea, at least bring STR to 18 and CON to 14.