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Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-07-14, 04:17 PM
So I read this recently:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm

The intent of Magic Rating is to simply encourage multiclassing, correct? However, what if you combined this with the UA Generic Classes variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)? Experts would get Spellcaster slots and spells known starting at 2nd level, and Warriors would get Spellcaster slots and spells known starting at 4th level.

Is this viable from levels 1 to 20 under the "class tier" system? Just estimating, I think that this would make the Spellcaster tier 2, and the Warrior and Expert both tier 3s, but with each having the capacity for good specialization (I imagine that a level 20 fighter with access to 3rd-level spells is a force to be reckoned with).

I know that this doesn't solve the two most egregious issues with high-level spellcasting (involving summoning and polymorph), but in all other regards it seems like an interesting solution to the flexibility/specialization issue. Any feedback or ideas? Would anyone be willing to playtest this to see what it's like?

EDIT: Yes, I know that Magic Rating is meant for multiclassing and doesn't grant spells. My question is "what if it did?"

Draz74
2013-07-14, 08:08 PM
Getting a magic rating doesn't actually mean you know any spells or have the ability to cast them. It just means that if you get those abilities from somewhere else, your Caster Level will be higher.

If it did work the way you say ... well, Generic Spellcaster is already Tier 2 (and very high in Tier 2). So it's a question of whether 1st/2nd level spells would be enough to bring the Expert and Warrior up to Tier 3. (They can't actually access Level 3 spells until Level 20, which hardly even counts.)

My gut feeling is to say "No, not enough to bring them up to Tier 3," but I'll let more experienced Tier-debaters justify or argue with that statement.

erikun
2013-07-14, 08:14 PM
So I read this recently:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm

The intent of Magic Rating is to simply encourage multiclassing, correct? However, what if you combined this with the UA Generic Classes variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)? Experts would get Spellcaster slots and spells known starting at 2nd level, and Warriors would get Spellcaster slots and spells known starting at 4th level.
Just to correct something: No, warriors and experts do not get spells or spell slots. What magic ratings means is that your non-spellcaster levels add to your caster level for spellcasting purposes, not that they gain magical abilities themselves. For example, a Spellcaster 10 has a CL 10. A Spellcaster 10/Warrior 5 has a CL 11. A Warrior 10/Spellcaster 1 has a CL 3. A Warrior 10 has no caster level, because it doesn't cast spells.

It is somewhat similar to the Tome of Battle and how non-initiator classes still gave benefit to your initiator level. A Fighter 10 who took a level in Warblade was considered a 6th-level initiator (if I recall correctly) and so could take higher level maneuvers than a starting Warblade 1 character.


Is this viable from levels 1 to 20 under the "class tier" system? Just estimating, I think that this would make the Spellcaster tier 2, and the Warrior and Expert both tier 3s, but with each having the capacity for good specialization (I imagine that a level 20 fighter with access to 3rd-level spells is a force to be reckoned with).
I am fairly certain that both generic Warriors and Experts are T4 normally, due to just getting skills and feats. The Warrior is a bit better than the Fighter with not being limited to Fighter-only feats, but not on par with the Psychic Warrior or Crusader overall. (And Expert is nowhere near as good as Factotum.)

JBPuffin
2013-07-14, 11:38 PM
If you give non-casters spells based on Magic Rating and combine it UA's generic classes...well, you have some interesting stuff going on; mages would obviously have their normal castng ability, experts would get up to 5th level spells (Lv. 20, admittedly) and warriors get 2nd level spells (Lv. 20). This would give EVERY NON-CASTER power, meaning that if optimized it could move things up a tier; however, depending on the spell options available it might not do much for you...so, let's say that they don't have a spell list.

That's right, not a one. Players check their Magic Rating, compare it to the spells/day and spells known of the spellcaster, and picks up their spells. Of course, you'd have to say what KIND of spells they are; divine, arcane, incarnum, WHAT? Once you do that, I think you've got it.

Personally, I have a dream that someone who knows the system better would take the UA generic class idea and throw in some more options, like Incarnum and such...have to look into that...

As to what tier this puts them? Well, if none of the classes has a spell list, and for the sake of argument all characters choose their spell's type, then they might all have access to Smite Evil or Familiars, which would add some minor power to every character. In addition, level 4 becomes a sweet spot where everyone's magic is useful, with the spellcasters having the second level stuff while the others are using some 1st-level spells and still useful. This means fighters would automatically be unbound paladins/"swordmages" and experts would be bards. So, whatever tier Bard and Paladin are, that's roghly where these guys are, albeit on the lower end/the higher end of the lower tier due to less class features.

BTW, technically the spellcaster class is also pretty strange, considering it could have Favored Enemy, Smite Evil, Turn Undead and maybe a Familiar. This means it's no longer a wizard; it's a mutant.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but I've read the things that talk about tiers so...there you go.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-07-14, 11:52 PM
Personally, I have a dream that someone who knows the system better would take the UA generic class idea and throw in some more options, like Incarnum and such...have to look into that...

No need to get fancy. You can already get access to Incarnum and essentia pools through feats. And incarnum isn't that great unless you pair it with other abilities, so I think it works best as a feat-accessible system.

JBPuffin
2013-07-15, 12:10 AM
No need to get fancy. You can already get access to Incarnum and essentia pools through feats. And incarnum isn't that great unless you pair it with other abilities, so I think it works best as a feat-accessible system.

Personally, I was thinking just some option to shape some soulmelds as a feat, or even as an alternate class feature for the spellcaster, but I have seen the Incarnum feats that buff class features and such. They just didn't seem right to me, almost as if it was just the designers hoping to give you an excuse to throw it onto a character and call it a day...whcih might not be a bad thing...