Knowledge Devotion optimization?

[Yogibear41]

Is their a knowledge devotion handbook? or anything of the like. I have heard its possible to get the +5 bonus a highe percentage of the time by level 6. But other than a high int, all the knowledge skills maxed, and collector of stories what else is out there to boost your knowledge rolls that much?

[Waker]

You could use the Cunning Knowledge ability of a Factotum to grant yourself a bonus equal to it's class level. An Exemplar gets a +4 bonus to a skill of their choice with Skill Artistry as well as the ability to take a 10.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've done a build or two (not particularly optimized build) where I dip DFA to get that +6 to Knowledge invocation. DFA is actually not a terrible first level to take if you aren't trying to milk a build for 100% of its op potential.

Plus, DFA is really nice if the DM rules that Knowledge Devotion can apply its bonus to ALL damage rolls, such as breath weapon damage rolls. Without more DFA, it isn't good later on, but 1d6+5 AoE unlimited use early on isn't too shabby.

I believe that there is an item somewhere that adds to Knowledge skills, too. Tome of Worldly Memory (MIC)? Can't quite recall. In any case, you can use the rules to buy a better competence bonus item, but the price jumps up rather quickly.

An actual familiar or a psicrystal might be able to Aid Another, but I'm not sure, since the type of Knowledge check that the Devotion calls for is not one that a creature can make without Knowledge Devotion.

If you use a build with lots of Draconic feats, then Draconic Knowledge can apply a hefty bonus. This mechanic can take time to accrue, though, unless you have some bonus feats, flaws, or the like. I'm sure you could, as Tippy might say, DCFS away some VoP to help in this process.

There might be a psionic power that helps with Knowledge checks. I seem to recall something of the kind, but it seems to me that it wasn't a flat bonus, but some other kind of thing.

Finally, I think this is an application where an Item Familiar might come in handy. I'm not really an expert on those, though.

[Feint's End]

An actual familiar or a psicrystal might be able to Aid Another, but I'm not sure, since the type of Knowledge check that the Devotion calls for is not one that a creature can make without Knowledge Devotion.


Yes they can and the knowledge check is a normal check to identify creatures according to CC ... so the check is something everybody with the knowledge skill can do but the damage bonus you get out of it isn't -> the feat doesn't enable you to make that check but rather gives you an additional advantage out of it.

The rest is pretty good though.

The Tome of Worldly Memory is a good option without going into custom creation (which just gives you points on one specific knowledge so in this case probably not something you want to spend money on) though it requires you to be in one step of lawful neutral (or to make a dc 30 UMD check)

[Feint's End]

So far we've got at level 6 (assuming int is your priority stat and you have a +2 int race)

4 Level Factotum (you will need the skillpoints), 1 Level DFA (Invocation), 1 Level Psion (with Psicrystal and Call to Mind)

9 ranks
+5 int
+5 scroll (if you are chaotic or of neutral evil/good alignment either use UMD to fake the alignment or use the Skilltrick Collector of Stories)
+2 aid another
+6 DFA Invocation
+4 Cunning Insight
+1 absent minded trait
+2 Masterwork Item
=+34

so we need 1 more (item familiar would eat up too much skillpoints for the 7 necessary skills)

edit: added some parts
edit 2: doesn't work quite yet
edit 3: almost there

[BowStreetRunner]

Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance (MIC 183) give a +5 to all knowledge checks if you are lawful neutral, lawful evil, lawful good, or neutral. It's just a competence bonus, so doesn't stack with Collector of Stories, but unlike the skill trick it works more than once per encounter in case you face multiple sorts of creatures.

EDIT: Tome of Worldly Memory's bonus is also competence, and only functions 3 times per day. It does not have an alignment requirement however.

[Feint's End]

Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance (MIC 183) give a +5 to all knowledge checks if you are lawful neutral, lawful evil, lawful good, or neutral. It's just a competence bonus, so doesn't stack with Collector of Stories, but unlike the skill trick it works more than once per encounter in case you face multiple sorts of creatures.

hmm I see ... so they don't stack ... what a pity.
Is there a way to autofail a knowledge check at Level 6? Because then you could use Call to Mind with an additional bonus of +4 making it possible again.

[BowStreetRunner]

hmm I see ... so they don't stack ... what a pity.
Is there a way to autofail a knowledge check at Level 6? Because then you could use Call to Mind with an additional bonus of +4 making it possible again.

In fact, I'm not sure if you can fail the Knowledge Devotion check at all. Even a result of 0 yields you a +1 attack/damage. I suppose you could fail to identify the creature but succeed in getting a bonus...would that count as a fail though?

[Feint's End]

In fact, I'm not sure if you can fail the Knowledge Devotion check at all. Even a result of 0 yields you a +1 attack/damage. I suppose you could fail to identify the creature but succeed in getting a bonus...would that count as a fail though?

It would since as I mentioned earlier the check you do for Knowledge devotion isn't a special check but rather a normal check to identify creatures. If you fail the normal check you can roll again even if you get a bonus from the feat (since the check itself failed).

edit: Wording seems pretty clear to me

Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.

It's only getting funky if you already know the properties of the creature and don't have to make a regular knowledge check but make one anyways since you need one for Knowledge Devotion :smalleek:.

Anyways .... are there ways available to a level 6 character to autofail a knowledge check? Come on guys ... we doing TO here.

[Corinath]

I forgot the name of the cleric spell, but there's one that grants you +20 on your subsequent skill check.

Wand it.

There's another that does the same, but it's specifically +5 to knowledge for 10mins/caster level.

Wand that one too.

(No idea if they'd stack. Probably not)

[Feint's End]

you talk about guidance of the avatar and that might be an option ... it would be nice to know though if there is a way to do the whole thing without using that spell and ressources other than feats and classfeatures

[Kuulvheysoon]

Collector of Stories (skill trick from Complete Scoundrel) gives you a +5 bonus on checks to identify monsters. Guess what Knowledge Devotion is?

[Big Fau]

IIRC, there should be some synergy bonuses for an additional +2.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm unclear that the Knowledge Devotion check is the same as a normal Knowledge check to identify a creature. I could be totally wrong here, but don't they use different action types? I have been told that Knowledge Devotion requires no action (would be significantly less useful if it did), but I seem to recall normal Knowledge checks to identify stuff had a different mechanic.

In any case, an item of schism at higher levels would give another source of Aid Another, methinks. Not a particularly useful tactic though, since short of constant-effect schism, now you are wasting combat rounds devising ways to boost Knowledge checks.

Was there a tainted feat or an archivist feat from Heroes of Horror to improve Knowledge checks? Hmm.

I have a feeling that some race or another has some kind of "ancestral x or y" ability we could be using.

Oh, is there an illumian sigil for this kind of thing? Not an expert on their uses, but Knowledge specialization does kind of scream "illumian" to me.

[Feint's End]

Collector of Stories (skill trick from Complete Scoundrel) gives you a +5 bonus on checks to identify monsters. Guess what Knowledge Devotion is?

doesn't stack with the scroll which is a more reliable source of +5 to all knowledge skills

[Kuulvheysoon]

doesn't stack with the scroll which is a more reliable source of +5 to all knowledge skills

But is still valid for, let's say, a CG character wanting to pump Knowledge Devotion.

[Keldrin]

There's also the gnome feat Trivial Knowledge, that allows for two rolls, I've used that to good effect with Know. Dev.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm unclear that the Knowledge Devotion check is the same as a normal Knowledge check to identify a creature.
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. They can't be separate checks, because the rules prevent you from making more than a single check.
I could be totally wrong here, but don't they use different action types?
Yes, you're totally wrong.
Action: Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

[Nettlekid]

Have you factored in getting a +2 Circumstance bonus from a Masterworked item? I think that's legal for just about any skill check. Get several picture books for 50 gp each, with bright colors and big words with arrows that point to the heads of dragons and the wings of fey, and call it a day.

[Feint's End]

Have you factored in getting a +2 Circumstance bonus from a Masterworked item? I think that's legal for just about any skill check. Get several picture books for 50 gp each, with bright colors and big words with arrows that point to the heads of dragons and the wings of fey, and call it a day.

actually forgot about that ... thanks for reminding me

[Feint's End]

There's also the gnome feat Trivial Knowledge, that allows for two rolls, I've used that to good effect with Know. Dev.

hmm might make the whole thing more likely in actual play. Right now we are looking on a 95% percent chance to suceed. With that feat we are looking at a 99.75% chance ... well the percentincrease isn't all that amazing but gets it close to 100. we just need on more bonus to kick it over to 100%.

[eggynack]

Do skill checks even automatically fail on natural ones? Attacks and saving throws certainly do, but skills don't say anything about it.

[DementedFellow]

I feel it necessary to add Truenamer to this list. They get all knowledge and they get Knowledge Focus multiple times which is basically another skill focus feat.

[Feint's End]

Do skill checks even automatically fail on natural ones? Attacks and saving throws certainly do, but skills don't say anything about it.

no they don't but at the moment we are looking at a bonus of +34 to the relevant knowledge checks at level 6 -> this gives us a 95% chance of sucess (everything except of a 1 will hit the dc 36) // that's why I'm looking for a way to add another +1 to the skill check

[BowStreetRunner]

Here's a couple of other racial options for optimizing Knowledge Devotion.

Rilkans (MoI) get all Knowledge checks treated as trained, +1 competence bonus on knowledge/bardic Knowledge checks which increases +1 per 2 soulmelds shaped.

Synads (CP) get a +2 bonus on any Knowledge or Psicraft check for 1 PP (they start with 3PP).

[Raendyn]

Can someone aid in Knowledge skills?

Thought this cant be done??

[Phelix-Mu]

They can't be separate checks, because the rules prevent you from making more than a single check.
Yes, you're totally wrong.

Thanks. I think.

[Lateral]

Lore of the Gods is a 2nd level spell that gives you +10 on Knowledge checks for 10 minutes/level.

[almightycoma]

did anyone mention item familiars yet? they are a great way to bump skill checks. that may be a bit too cheesy for some people though.

[BowStreetRunner]

Feat: Draconic Aura (Insight) gives an untyped bonus to Decipher Script, Knowledge, and Spellcraft checks. It's only +1 unless you are dragonblood, in which case it goes up as you gain HD.

[Phelix-Mu]

Lore of the Gods is a 2nd level spell that gives you +10 on Knowledge checks for 10 minutes/level.

Oh, lol. Please, please source me. I need this for several of my characters.

Really, who writes these spells?:smallamused:

[BowStreetRunner]

Oh, lol. Please, please source me. I need this for several of my characters.

Really, who writes these spells?:smallamused:

Complete Champion. It is a +5 bonus normally, but if you are a cleric of a deity granting the knowledge domain it goes up to +10.

[Gildedragon]

According to Dr331, improved familiar + raven allows one's raven familiar to aid another with kn checks.
Illumian with the intelligence sigil nets you a +2 to all int skills
Guidance of the avatar (is competence, but still)

[Phelix-Mu]

Complete Champion. It is a +5 bonus normally, but if you are a cleric of a deity granting the knowledge domain it goes up to +10.

*tips hat* Thanks ever so much. I can also use this for npcs. Tee hee. Int-based monks with Knowledge Devotion are one of my favorite set ups.:smallcool:

[Curmudgeon]

Can someone aid in Knowledge skills?

Thought this cant be done??

In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. I agree with you that I've never seen it allowed in a game, but it's a DM's call.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. All the Knowledges are trained-only, so at a minimum the aiding character would need to be trained in that particular skill. But because the specific application for the skill check is Knowledge Devotion, a DM would be perfectly within the rules to say that every character who wants to Aid Another with Knowledge Devotion would need to have that feat as well. That's what I've ruled when I was DMing the couple of times this came up. Other DMs just flat out disallow Aid Another with all Knowledge checks: Aid Another can't put memories into someone else's brain.

[Deophaun]

Have you factored in getting a +2 Circumstance bonus from a Masterworked item? I think that's legal for just about any skill check.
Item must come first, then the skill check. No such thing as a masterwork item of skill.

Get several picture books for 50 gp each, with bright colors and big words with arrows that point to the heads of dragons and the wings of fey, and call it a day.
But, would this be applicable to a +2 bonus to a skill where a single rank constitutes a significant amount of study?

The problem with masterwork items that are not already established is how they work, if they work, is based on DM adjudication. Is the Idiot's Pop-Up Book of Dragons going to be of help to anyone with even a couple ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)? And if it's a masterfully written dissertation on the subject, is it something that will help you just by you holding it in your hands, or are you going to need to take, say, a minute to consult the book for your +2 bonus? Is an instantaneous "Hey, I know what that is" gut check in the field something that is a "related" check for an item of close study?

I'd say DMs who just let such things sit as a passive +2 bonus to your skill check are far on the permissive scale, but that's just me.

[Elric VIII]

I agree with you that I've never seen it allowed in a game, but it's a DM's call. All the Knowledges are trained-only, so at a minimum the aiding character would need to be trained in that particular skill. But because the specific application for the skill check is Knowledge Devotion, a DM would be perfectly within the rules to say that every character who wants to Aid Another with Knowledge Devotion would need to have that feat as well. That's what I've ruled when I was DMing the couple of times this came up. Other DMs just flat out disallow Aid Another with all Knowledge checks: Aid Another can't put memories into someone else's brain.

But your brain holds more knowledge than that at its forefront. Someone can remind you of some things or mention something that reminds you of a fact. This would be even more likely with a long-time friend (party member/Awakened AC) or something linked to you (such as a familiar).

Some things to help you out:

The Educated feat grants +2 to 2 skills of your choice, untyped.
Survival grants +2 to Knowledge (nature).
The absent-minded trait grants +1 to knowledge skills in exchange for -1 to spot/listen.
If you are already taking a level in DFA, there's a feat that gives you an aura and since you gain the draconic type from the DFA level it scales (+2 at level 6)

[Curmudgeon]

But your brain holds more knowledge than that at its forefront. Someone can remind you of some things or mention something that reminds you of a fact.
But how, in terms of game mechanics, are they going to do that? Knowledge checks use no action — not even a free action, which is required for speech.

[Elric VIII]

But how, in terms of game mechanics, are they going to do that? Knowledge checks use no action — not even a free action, which is required for speech.

Well, it is a joint skill check, no action is given. Is it not possible for someone to spend a free action prior to your knowledge roll? Even if you rule that knowledge checks are made at the beginning of combat to identify things (i.e. as soon as you see it you try to recall what you know), Knowledge Devotion is a conscious decision. So there is a time prior to the roll during which your ally can use the action to speak.

I think the issue is that each skill has its own specific action cost and a "cooperative effort" is vague as to the cost. For example, you could aid another on a search check by searching at the same time, but it would still be a "cooperative effort" if you search, then your ally searches after you to make sure you didn't miss anything.

Basically, you have to ask if an ally yelling to you: "hey, that dragon has writing on some of its scales," will help you to remember about Loredrake. I would tend to say that ambiguity in the rules benefits the realistic case, such as where speech as a free action is not in conflict with trying to recall something. I believe the rule about the game working like real life should cover this.

[Grayson01]

Warlock Invocation Other Worldly Wishpers is another good way to boost three Knowledge Skills and Educated feat from (Don't qoute me but Forgotten Relems Campaighn Guide gives you all as class skills and lets you focus on two for a bonus.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Warlock Invocation Other Worldly Wishpers is another good way to boost three Knowledge Skills and Educated feat from (Don't qoute me but Forgotten Relems Campaighn GuidePlayer's Guide to Faerun gives you all as class skills and lets you focus on two for a bonus.

Education also appears in the Eberron Campaign Setting, except that it's open to everybody, but the bonus on 2 Knowledge skills is cut to +1 (instead of +2).

[Curmudgeon]

Education also appears in the Eberron Campaign Setting, except that it's open to everybody, but the bonus on 2 Knowledge skills is cut to +1 (instead of +2).
The general (not Eberron-specific) version of Education in Eberron Campaign Setting is much more likely to fit, as the Forgotten Realms Education is pretty limited in terms of races and regions:
Prerequisite: Elf (Evermeet, Silverymoon, or Snow Eagle Aerie), gnome (Lantan), half-elf (Silverymoon), or human (Chessenta, Lantan, Silverymoon, or Waterdeep).

[Metahuman1]

Use Item crafting rules/guidelines to make steeply discounted visits to the Frog God's Fane in order to get Skill focus's, retrain them to the assorted knowledge skills used in identifying Monsters for an extra +3 on all knowledge devotion checks?


A level in Marshel or other trick to gain his motivate ability stat aura's might be good, get two stats to the check, or double the Int mod with Motivate Int.


Do Pack Magic or Incarnum have any soulmelds/feats/vestiges that would help?

[TuggyNE]

Item must come first, then the skill check. No such thing as a masterwork item of skill.

But, would this be applicable to a +2 bonus to a skill where a single rank constitutes a significant amount of study?

The problem with masterwork items that are not already established is how they work, if they work, is based on DM adjudication. Is the Idiot's Pop-Up Book of Dragons going to be of help to anyone with even a couple ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)? And if it's a masterfully written dissertation on the subject, is it something that will help you just by you holding it in your hands, or are you going to need to take, say, a minute to consult the book for your +2 bonus? Is an instantaneous "Hey, I know what that is" gut check in the field something that is a "related" check for an item of close study?

I'd say DMs who just let such things sit as a passive +2 bonus to your skill check are far on the permissive scale, but that's just me.

At this point I feel it essential to note that I have seen, with my own two peepers, quick reference field guides for identifying birds, trees, and animal tracks. +2 to Knowledge: Nature checks to identify the included subjects? You betcha!

[BowStreetRunner]

At this point I feel it essential to note that I have seen, with my own two peepers, quick reference field guides for identifying birds, trees, and animal tracks. +2 to Knowledge: Nature checks to identify the included subjects? You betcha!

Yeah, that's how I always saw it. Even watching scientists at work I've always seen them with various quick-references close at hand that help them so that they don't have to work entirely from memory. And for the novice, these things probably have more information than their memories to begin with.

I wouldn't make using them part of a standard knowledge check however (since that takes no action). Rather, I would make it work more like the Tome of Memory. By studying the guide for 1 minute, you can gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the next Knowledge check (of the type appropriate to the guide) you make, as long as it is within 1 hour. If you have 5 or more ranks in the appropriate knowledge, you can gain this effect as a standard action instead.

This would lead to some nice flavor as well - like the bird-watcher constantly checking his field guide as he walks through the woods. And while it is not as easy to use as other masterwork tools which can be just on all the time, by taking a minute (or a standard action) once every hour you are always primed for the next knowledge check you will have to make.

[Feytalist]

This would lead to some nice flavor as well - like the bird-watcher constantly checking his field guide as he walks through the woods. And while it is not as easy to use as other masterwork tools which can be just on all the time, by taking a minute (or a standard action) once every hour you are always primed for the next knowledge check you will have to make.

That's actually a great idea. I've always wondered how to intelligently use a Knowledge-based masterwork tool, because just having it in your backpack is stupid and actually poring over a book in active combat is insane. Why did I never think of this? Thanks for the idea! Shamelessly stolen. (Don't worry, I'll credit you as "some guy on the internet..." :smalltongue:)

[BowStreetRunner]

That's actually a great idea. I've always wondered how to intelligently use a Knowledge-based masterwork tool, because just having it in your backpack is stupid and actually poring over a book in active combat is insane. Why did I never think of this? Thanks for the idea! Shamelessly stolen. (Don't worry, I'll credit you as "some guy on the internet..." :smalltongue:)

Since I stole the idea from the Tome of Memory (MIC page 190) I can hardly complain! :smallwink:

[Rebel7284]

Motivate Intelligence from Marshal probably helps.

[Deophaun]

At this point I feel it essential to note that I have seen, with my own two peepers, quick reference field guides for identifying birds, trees, and animal tracks. +2 to Knowledge: Nature checks to identify the included subjects? You betcha!
And these reference guides take no time to consult, and you can just automatically get the knowledge merely by holding it in your hands, or is it more like...

you going to need to take, say, a minute to consult the book for your +2 bonus...

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with the above, but in terms of RAW, there is the problem that there is already an item that gives a +2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks, which the masterwork book needs to be weighed against. That, of course, is a book lot for a library, which costs 20X the proposed masterwork book, and provides the same bonus. So, to move this away from knowledge skills, the masterwork book is akin to a proposed masterwork alembic giving the same bonus to an alchemy check as an entire alchemist's lab (itself a masterwork item).

[Phelix-Mu]

And these reference guides take no time to consult, and you can just automatically get the knowledge merely by holding it in your hands, or is it more like...


Now, I wouldn't have a problem with the above, but in terms of RAW, there is the problem that there is already an item that gives a +2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks, which the masterwork book needs to be weighed against. That, of course, is a book lot for a library, which costs 20X the proposed masterwork book, and provides the same bonus. So, to move this away from knowledge skills, the masterwork book is akin to a proposed masterwork alembic giving the same bonus to an alchemy check as an entire alchemist's lab (itself a masterwork item).

Different circumstance bonuses for different circumstances. It's impossible to use a book lot in a library to help you with Knowledge Devotion on a monster you just spotted. That would be the flashcards/quick-reference/flowchart/MM statblock that the character carries around.

You can get a circumstance bonus to Knowledge checks for the altogether different circumstance of prolonged research into a particular matter. I think the rules for book lots even give a time necessary to get the bonus--AFB at the moment.

In short, a book lot serves a very different purpose than a masterwork tool. It's entirely possible to have different sources that grant circumstance bonuses to the same thing (and circumstance bonuses from different sources often stack...a matter often of DM adjudication, as circumstance bonuses/penalties generally are).

[Deophaun]

Different circumstance bonuses for different circumstances. It's impossible to use a book lot in a library to help you with Knowledge Devotion on a monster you just spotted.
Which is the problem. If there were mundane books out there that could grant a +2 bonus to the required knowledge check to identify all monsters of a given type (the most common use of knowledge checks), then it would be in that book lot, and it wouldn't take near as long to get the bonus. Unless you're saying it's 50 gp for a reference to a specific monster (e.g. this gives a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Religion) checks regarding ghouls), I just don't see it.

In short, a book lot serves a very different purpose than a masterwork tool.
No, a book lot is a masterwork tool. It gives a +2 bonus to an applicable task. It is no less a masterwork tool than an alchemist's lab, or a climber's kit, or masterwork thieves tools.

It's entirely possible to have different sources that grant circumstance bonuses to the same thing (and circumstance bonuses from different sources often stack...a matter often of DM adjudication, as circumstance bonuses/penalties generally are).
The masterwork book and the book lot both derive their circumstance bonuses from the same thing: books. Otherwise, you are arguing that you could buy multiple books on that same topic and keep piling up the +2 bonuses. With 1000 gp, who needs a +2 circumstance bonus from a book lot if you can just buy 20 masterwork books for a +40?

[BowStreetRunner]

No, a book lot is a masterwork tool. It gives a +2 bonus to an applicable task. It is no less a masterwork tool than an alchemist's lab, or a climber's kit, or masterwork thieves tools.

So some game designer included in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook a version of a masterwork tool for the Knowledge skill that is less efficient than the homebrew version (field guide) in someone's game. No offense intended, but so what?

The Everful Larder from the same Stronghold Builder's Guidebook creates food for 5 at a cost of 15,000gp while a Field Provisions Box from the Magic Item Compendium creatues food for 15 at a cost of 2,000gp. This doesn't mean that you can't use the Field Provisions Box or that both items can't exist in the same world. It just means that there exists both a more and less efficient tool to do the same job. That sort of thing happens in the real world all the time.

[Deophaun]

So some game designer included in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook a version of a masterwork tool for the Knowledge skill that is less efficient than the homebrew version (field guide) in someone's game. No offense intended, but so what?
I'm not taking homebrew into account. I honestly don't care about homebrew, which is why I don't frequent that section of the forums.

The Everful Larder from the same Stronghold Builder's Guidebook creates food for 5 at a cost of 15,000gp while a Field Provisions Box from the Magic Item Compendium creatues food for 15 at a cost of 2,000gp. This doesn't mean that you can't use the Field Provisions Box or that both items can't exist in the same world. It just means that there exists both a more and less efficient tool to do the same job. That sort of thing happens in the real world all the time.
Both the Field Provisions Box and the Everful Larder are official things in the game (and part of MIC's purpose was to readjust prices on existing items). If you can point to an official +2 masterwork item to boost knowledge skills that isn't a book lot, I'd be interested to see it. Otherwise, I don't much care. Instead, I am talking about general guidelines for creating masterwork items, how they are DM adjudicated, and if you take existing items into account, a masterwork field guide that gives a +2 bonus to a knowledge guide is unlikely to pass muster. I, personally, override those standards with my own houserules, but that is neither here nor there for the purpose of this discussion.

[Phelix-Mu]

PHB, page 130:

Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for
the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if
any). Some examples of this sort of item from Table 7–8 include
masterwork artisan’s tools, masterwork thieves’ tools, disguise kit,
climber’s kit, healer’s kit, and masterwork musical instrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple
masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack, so
masterwork pitons and a masterwork climber’s kit do not provide a
+4 bonus if used together on a Climb check.

SBG, sidebar page 25, amended since I can't confirm OGL:

Books
....In general, a book
lot costs 1,000 gp and provides
a +2 circumstance
bonus on a specific Knowledge
check, such as Knowledge
(arcana) or Knowledge
(religion). Alternatively, you
can purchase a book lot of
general topics, which costs
3,000 gp and provides a +1
circumstance bonus on all
Knowledge checks. Circumstance
bonuses from multiple
book lots do not stack.
..... Comprehensive
book lots cost 5,000 gp,
occupy 3 book lots, and offer
a +4 circumstance bonus on
the appropriate Knowledge
checks. Master book lots cost
20,000 gp, occupy 6 book lots,
and offer a +6 circumstance
bonus.
...
You can only purchase comprehensive
or master book
lots for specific Knowledge
skill categories (and not for
general topics).

There is no reference to book lots counting as the same kind of circumstance bonus as a masterwork tool. SBG is 3.0, so make of this what you will; a formal comparison would look at 3.0 PHB's language in order to be exhaustive, but color me too lazy for this.

If you've ever done detailed research in a large library, I think you will accept that the type of benefit gained from searching through stacks of books and comparing sources is totally different than what is gained from the "Reader's Digest" kind of field guide that would constitute a masterwork tool of knowledge(x).

If this is huge deal, just make it a deck of stat cards and pics, or a cheat sheet. The entry on masterwork tool from PHB is hilariously vague. Winnebago of Survival? Fine (though it will be a rather small Winnebago at only 1lbs.:smalltongue:).

[Spuddles]

Item must come first, then the skill check. No such thing as a masterwork item of skill.

But, would this be applicable to a +2 bonus to a skill where a single rank constitutes a significant amount of study?

The problem with masterwork items that are not already established is how they work, if they work, is based on DM adjudication. Is the Idiot's Pop-Up Book of Dragons going to be of help to anyone with even a couple ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)? And if it's a masterfully written dissertation on the subject, is it something that will help you just by you holding it in your hands, or are you going to need to take, say, a minute to consult the book for your +2 bonus? Is an instantaneous "Hey, I know what that is" gut check in the field something that is a "related" check for an item of close study?

I'd say DMs who just let such things sit as a passive +2 bonus to your skill check are far on the permissive scale, but that's just me.

I imagine a book of +2 knowledge checks looks like this (http://orkerhulen.dk/Dnd%20history/dnd/2003%20DnD%203.5%20MMI.jpg).

[Spuddles]

Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/books-paper-writing-supplies#TOC-Book) has some rules for MW books. In general, you take 1d4 full rounds to consult and get a +2 circumstance bonus.

[Deophaun]

There is no reference to book lots counting as the same kind of circumstance bonus as a masterwork tool.
:sigh:

Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Getting a circumstance bonus from having the appropriate reading materials is essentially the same as getting a circumstance bonus from having the appropriate reading materials.

[Phelix-Mu]

:sigh:

Getting a circumstance bonus from having the appropriate reading materials is essentially the same as getting a circumstance bonus from having the appropriate reading materials.

Right, all books are the same.

Again, if the problem is it's a book, then make it something else. Masterwork Pokeball of Knowledge(arcana)...it tells me that the dragons that are red are fire element. This is hardly the sterling piece of RAW to be arguing over.

EDIT: I seem to have critically failed that Knowledge(Pokemon) roll.

[Rubik]

Complete Champion. It is a +5 bonus normally, but if you are a cleric of a deity granting the knowledge domain it goes up to +10.Note that every god does this, since cloistered clerics get the domain regardless of god.

[Gildedragon]

The tool needn't even contain the information, but be a mnemnonic device to aid the remembering of the data. Quipu, beads, fobs with key examples of humanoids or magical beasts, or a WWTD-type sentence would all be sensible MW knowledge X tools for an adventurer; especially one that relies on something like Kn Dev. It could be a general plushie with vital spots marked out. Or a field guide they've been thumbing through over the course of the day.

[Spuddles]

Knowledge Devotion's never struck me as a particularly valuable feat. Any class that has the skill points/class skills for knowledge is better off investing in better feats or skills.

I guess factotum is a bit of a corner case, but a wizard has better things to do than making attack rolls, a bard gets more mileage out of inspire courage optimization, and everybody else doesn't get the knowledge skills. Cloistered Cleric gets the skills, but I'd rather spend the feats on DMM:persist.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Note that every god does this, since cloistered clerics get the domain regardless of god.

Not true, unfortunately.

From the Cloistered Cleric description
In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains.

A deity is considered to grant the knowledge domain if it's one of it's listed domains. Receiving the Knowledge Domain is a class feature of the cloistered cleric and in no way means that every deity grants it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Knowledge Devotion's never struck me as a particularly valuable feat. Any class that has the skill points/class skills for knowledge is better off investing in better feats or skills.

I guess factotum is a bit of a corner case, but a wizard has better things to do than making attack rolls, a bard gets more mileage out of inspire courage optimization, and everybody else doesn't get the knowledge skills. Cloistered Cleric gets the skills, but I'd rather spend the feats on DMM:persist.

With a generous read of "damage rolls," the feat is actually not bad for lower-level AoE builds, like a DFA. At low levels, +5 atk/dmg is pretty formidable, especially on a class that is not melee-oriented but still does damaging effects on a regular basis.

Oh, and archers. Yeah, archers.:smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

I wouldn't make using them part of a standard knowledge check however (since that takes no action). Rather, I would make it work more like the Tome of Memory. By studying the guide for 1 minute, you can gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the next Knowledge check (of the type appropriate to the guide) you make, as long as it is within 1 hour. If you have 5 or more ranks in the appropriate knowledge, you can gain this effect as a standard action instead.

That would make sense, or, perhaps, they would allow a retry with the given action.


Which is the problem. If there were mundane books out there that could grant a +2 bonus to the required knowledge check to identify all monsters of a given type (the most common use of knowledge checks), then it would be in that book lot, and it wouldn't take near as long to get the bonus. Unless you're saying it's 50 gp for a reference to a specific monster (e.g. this gives a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Religion) checks regarding ghouls), I just don't see it.

Somewhere in between; a field reference guide to birds doesn't just cover sparrows (generally), but neither does it cover all K:Nature checks. So for ghouls, you might have a book that covers various sorts of corporeal humanoid-derived undead, leaving other books to cover non-humanoid corporeal undead, incorporeal undead (humanoid and otherwise), deities, deific servants, and so on and so forth. You can reasonably tweak the price and number of subsections so that getting a field guide for every subdivision of a given Knowledge check would cost about as much as the book lot (or maybe somewhat less, depending on how annoying it is to switch between the guidebooks). Alternatively, you can have the book lot give a +3 bonus instead of +2, or something.

[Spuddles]

With a generous read of "damage rolls," the feat is actually not bad for lower-level AoE builds, like a DFA. At low levels, +5 atk/dmg is pretty formidable, especially on a class that is not melee-oriented but still does damaging effects on a regular basis.

Oh, and archers. Yeah, archers.:smallamused:

I'm just not really convinced the investment is worth it. A low level archer desperately needs Precise Shot and its special little brother, Point Blank Shot. There just isn't room for the feat or the feats needed to make 3.5's crappy skill system work.

I can see it being awesome on low level AoE builds, though. Warmage in particular. That'd be brutal. Or Thunderhead (SpC). Or Lesser Creeping Cold.

+5 attack/damage is an average of +15 damage, or 4d6. Not particularly spectacular. Also, all the rolling, god so annoying.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've also used the Knowledge Devotion on a dragonblooded halfling feat rogue/int-based monk/master thrower build. Never tried it out, but adding +5 to every throw isn't too bad. Draconic Knowledge gets all knowledge skills as class skills, and you really don't need to max all of the Knowledge subcategories, just the ones that you run into a lot in a given campaign and have trouble damaging.

Anyway, I agree it's not particularly optimal in many instances. But I'm a real sucker for Int-based builds overall, so this feat is pretty awesome in my mind.

[Grayson01]

Knowledge Devotion's never struck me as a particularly valuable feat. Any class that has the skill points/class skills for knowledge is better off investing in better feats or skills.

I guess factotum is a bit of a corner case, but a wizard has better things to do than making attack rolls, a bard gets more mileage out of inspire courage optimization, and everybody else doesn't get the knowledge skills. Cloistered Cleric gets the skills, but I'd rather spend the feats on DMM:persist.

Duskblade works great with this feat, even better with Duskblade/Arcane Archer. Adds nicely to a Warlock. It may not bub these classes up super high but an extra +5 damage per Eldric Blast is a nice help.

[Spuddles]

What's the highest you can get your bonus with the least investment? Lore of the Gods seems the best, if you worship a god of knowledge.

But if you're expecting +5 attack/damage out of it, the optimization doesn't seem to be worth the opportunity cost. Especially if you typically have multi-types combats.

I see knowledge devotion as fairly niche, mostly for not penalizing mundane, or mostly mundane, for spending skill points on things other than tumble or climb.

[Phelix-Mu]

I see knowledge devotion as fairly niche, mostly for not penalizing mundane, or mostly mundane, for spending skill points on things other than tumble or climb.

Agreed on the last bit. The feat itself really points to how "do it better with spells" is the mantra of 3e (and actually D&D generally). You can be cool without spells, but it takes longer, and the cool-cap is lower than it is once you start adding spells.

Better add spells, kids! Or the monsters that can actually challenge the full casters will get you!

[Spuddles]

Agreed on the last bit. The feat itself really points to how "do it better with spells" is the mantra of 3e (and actually D&D generally). You can be cool without spells, but it takes longer, and the cool-cap is lower than it is once you start adding spells.

Better add spells, kids! Or the monsters that can actually challenge the full casters will get you!

:smallfrown:

[BowStreetRunner]

Note that every god does this, since cloistered clerics get the domain regardless of god.

While that would certainly be nice, you need "a deity who grants access" to the domain, not a class feature that grants access to the domain. The spell doesn't actually care whether you took the domain or not (it states as much), just whether it is in your deity's portfolio.

EDIT: whoa, majorly ninja'd. I gotta refresh more often.

[Deophaun]

Right, all books are the same.
Great. Then we can get 1000 books for a +2000 bonus, because... well... because!

Again, if the problem is it's a book, then make it something else.
Which is the issue. You need something else that makes sense to grant a +2 bonus to a knowledge check. You can't make a Masterwork Item of Knowledge (Arcana) and work backwards.

Masterwork Pokeball of Knowledge(arcana)...
WTF is a Pokeball in a D&D setting and how does it function that makes it fundamentally different from a book? Sounds like a bunch of handwavium, which is not how masterwork tools work.

[Incanur]

Knowledge Devotion strikes me as reasonably strong for factotums, duskblades, various archer builds, certain range-touch-attack-focused casters, and some melee clerics (Ancestral Knowledge and lore of the gods help here). It's not broken, but it's not a bad feat when used properly.

[Rubik]

While that would certainly be nice, you need "a deity who grants access" to the domain, not a class feature that grants access to the domain. The spell doesn't actually care whether you took the domain or not (it states as much), just whether it is in your deity's portfolio.What happens if you're a cloistered cleric of an ideal that could conceivably contain Knowledge as a source of power?

[Curmudgeon]

What happens if you're a cloistered cleric of an ideal that could conceivably contain Knowledge as a source of power?
You get no special treatment. It's Lore of the Gods, not Lore of the Ideals.