Several Questions about Muckdwellers

[DementedFellow]

So I've heard time and time again that muckdwellers make for great characters. I have several questions in regards to this.

The stats for a muckdweller are: Str 4, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8. So does this mean a PC would get the stat bonuses of Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -1, and Cha -2? The -1 to Wisdom looks wonky.

Do the feats Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse come for free with this race?

The squirt has a Reflex DC of 13, and that it is based on Dexterity. I'm able to get this part. But shouldn't it include something about hd or level in there somewhere?

As always, thanks in advance for your answers.

[Thurbane]

Correct stat adjustments are Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -2 and Cha -2. With even numbers, you use 10 as the base, or for odd, you use 11.

Weapon Finesse is noted with a superscript B, and is a bonus feat. Improved Initiative is the creatures normal 1HD feat choice.

The standard formula of calculating DC for racial abilities is 10 + 1/2 HD (rounded down) plus stat modifier; so 10 + 0 + 3 in the case of the Muckdweller.

...and don't forget, you also get a swim speed, +3 natural armor bonus and a bite attack.

[Thurbane]

I should also note, unless specified otherwise, special attack granted by race always only take racial HD into consideration for the DC, and not class levels.

Being tiny will also get you a +2 size bonus to hit and AC, and +8 size bonus to Hide checks.

The Muckdweller has no favored class specified (if your group uses the favored class rules): I'd suggest Rogue; or a common house rule I've seen for races with no specified favored class is that the first base class you take a level in becomes your favored class.

[DementedFellow]

I never knew that about the odd numbers! Thanks!

I apologize for seeming a bit dim, but you are saying that Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat that would be given to a PC, correct?

So there would be no way to increase the Squirt DC outside of increasing the Dex score?

Another question, with the advancement, does it mean that a level 3 muckdweller PC loses his tiny form and becomes small or does that just pertain to monsters?

[Thurbane]

Yep, weapon finesse is a racial bonus feat that you would get as a PC.

The Ability Focus feat would increase the DC by 2, but other than that, yes, increasing Dex would be the main way of boosting it.

A Muckdweller would only go from Tiny to Small if it advanced it's racial HD to 3 - if it advances by class levels, and it's racial HD stay below 3, it will remain Tiny.

There's is some controversy about creatures other than the Humanoid type swapping their 1st racial HD for a class level, but it's generally accepted to be OK (a very harsh reading of the RAW will say only Humanoids get this benefit).

[DementedFellow]

You have been really helpful. Thanks! I appreciate your help and your patience with my questions :smallsmile:

[Yora]

I should also note, unless specified otherwise, special attack granted by race always only take racial HD into consideration for the DC, and not class levels.
How did you get that impression? Everything I've ever seen indicates that HD from class levels are just like any other HD.

[Phelix-Mu]

A Muckdweller would only go from Tiny to Small if it advanced it's racial HD to 3 - if it advances by class levels, and it's racial HD stay below 3, it will remain Tiny.

There's is some controversy about creatures other than the Humanoid type swapping their 1st racial HD for a class level, but it's generally accepted to be OK (a very harsh reading of the RAW will say only Humanoids get this benefit).

Most creatures that note an advancement in their monster entry can't actually raise their racial HD through leveling above the default amount. The advancement line is purely for use by the DM for making stronger monsters.

Finally, and just out of curiosity, where is muckdweller from?

[DementedFellow]

You can find them in Serpent Kingdom. I'm AFB at the moment but it was either page 71 or 72 if memory serves.

[Darrin]

How did you get that impression? Everything I've ever seen indicates that HD from class levels are just like any other HD.

That was my understanding as well. Class levels = HD.

Another Muckdweller quirk: a 5th level LE Muckdweller Wizard/Sorcerer can get a Muckdweller as an Improved Familiar.

They make excellent Warlocks (Dex bonus + Size bonus = fun with ranged touch attacks) and Dragonfire Adepts ("Judge me by my size, do you? Save vs. Breath Weapon, monkeyboy!").

[Nettlekid]

That was my understanding as well. Class levels = HD.

Another Muckdweller quirk: a 5th level LE Muckdweller Wizard/Sorcerer can get a Muckdweller as an Improved Familiar.

They make excellent Warlocks (Dex bonus + Size bonus = fun with ranged touch attacks) and Dragonfire Adepts ("Judge me by my size, do you? Save vs. Breath Weapon, monkeyboy!").

Something I've wanted to do with a Tiny race like a Muckdweller is take three levels of Stoneblessed to count as a Goliath, take the first Goliath Barbarian racial substitution level, and so when they rage they turn Large. Tiny to Large as a free action. I love the image. I think it could make an interesting Totem Rager.

[DementedFellow]

Here is another question. Let's say I want to attack with a melee weapon and a bite, because I'm special like that.

As I understand it, the bite would the sole and primary natural attack, so the Str bonus would be 1.5 times, wouldn't it? That's not included that stat block, so that's confusing.

Also, in this scenario, which attack would come first, the melee weapon or the natural attack?

[Nettlekid]

Here is another question. Let's say I want to attack with a melee weapon and a bite, because I'm special like that.

As I understand it, the bite would the sole and primary natural attack, so the Str bonus would be 1.5 times, wouldn't it? That's not included that stat block, so that's confusing.

Also, in this scenario, which attack would come first, the melee weapon or the natural attack?

That's not the case. Any natural attack is considered a secondary attack when used alongside a manufactured weapon, so it takes the penalty and the lower Str added to damage like all secondary natural weapons do.

I'm pretty sure either attack can be done first, because it's not iterative attack. But double-check with someone else.

[Thurbane]

How did you get that impression? Everything I've ever seen indicates that HD from class levels are just like any other HD.

That was my understanding as well. Class levels = HD.
As helpfully clarified in the FAQ thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15627332&postcount=978):

Special Attacks and Special Qualities
Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text.

When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.

The save DC is given in the creature’s description along with the ability on which the DC is based.


Here is another question. Let's say I want to attack with a melee weapon and a bite, because I'm special like that.

As I understand it, the bite would the sole and primary natural attack, so the Str bonus would be 1.5 times, wouldn't it? That's not included that stat block, so that's confusing.

Also, in this scenario, which attack would come first, the melee weapon or the natural attack?
To expand a bit further on the answer already given: if your sole attack is your bite, then yes, it gets 1.5 * Str bonus to damage.

When attacking with a manufactured weapon and a bite, the weapon does it's normal damage, and the bite becomes secondary: -5 to attack, and only 0.5 * Str bonus added to damage.

[DementedFellow]

Wouldn't Savage Species trump this? On page 5-6, it reads:


If a creature has 1 Hit Die or a fractional Hit Die, the first Hit Die it gains in an actual character class replaces its racial Hit Die or any portion thereof, and the character functions as any other member of its class.

Of course by this interpretation, if you multiclass away from the base class, taking levels in fighter for example, won't count towards this.

Thoughts on the feasibility of this? Or am I talking out my butt? :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

Wouldn't Savage Species trump this? On page 5-6, it reads:



Of course by this interpretation, if you multiclass away from the base class, taking levels in fighter for example, won't count towards this.

Thoughts on the feasibility of this? Or am I talking out my butt? :smallsmile:

Replaces means replaces. You lose your racial hit dice and gain your class hit dice instead. That doesn't mean they replace them in formulas, it means they replace them in reality, so you completely lose all your racial hit dice period.

Edit: Incidentally, note that there are quite a few monsters that don't gain the 1.5xStr to their sole natural attack, usually ones that are humanoid in form. Muckdweller is probably amongst those. Regardless, you don't take 1.5x the penalty for negative Str, that's always just Str.

[123456789blaaa]

Yep, weapon finesse is a racial bonus feat that you would get as a PC.

The Ability Focus feat would increase the DC by 2, but other than that, yes, increasing Dex would be the main way of boosting it.

A Muckdweller would only go from Tiny to Small if it advanced it's racial HD to 3 - if it advances by class levels, and it's racial HD stay below 3, it will remain Tiny.

There's is some controversy about creatures other than the Humanoid type swapping their 1st racial HD for a class level, but it's generally accepted to be OK (a very harsh reading of the RAW will say only Humanoids get this benefit).

Could you detail this a bit more?


As helpfully clarified in the FAQ thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15627332&postcount=978):


Special Attacks and Special Qualities
Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text.

When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.

The save DC is given in the creature’s description along with the ability on which the DC is based.

To expand a bit further on the answer already given: if your sole attack is your bite, then yes, it gets 1.5 * Str bonus to damage.

When attacking with a manufactured weapon and a bite, the weapon does it's normal damage, and the bite becomes secondary: -5 to attack, and only 0.5 * Str bonus added to damage.

It appears there's some ambiguity.

[Darrin]

As helpfully clarified in the FAQ thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15627332&postcount=978):


This may have changed in the Rules Compendium. Page 113:



"Special ability saving throw DC = 10 + 1/2 the creature's HD + the modifier for the ability score on which the ability is based + other modifiers (often racial)"


As per MM p. 290, "creature's HD" means "class levels + racial HD":



The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice.

[Urpriest]

This may have changed in the Rules Compendium. Page 113:



As per MM p. 290, "creature's HD" means "class levels + racial HD":

While this obviously doesn't matter for a RAW discussion, consistency dictates that the reference to "creature's HD" in that formula, much like any reference to "level" in a class description, defaults to the racial HD/class that grants the ability. This is also how it ends up working in most published examples, as was discussed to some extent in my monster handbook thread. So if you're going for self-consistency rather than RAW then it should only apply to racial HD.

[DementedFellow]

For the sake of argument, how disruptive to a game would it be if it was kept 10 + 1/2 character level + dex modifier?

[Urpriest]

For the sake of argument, how disruptive to a game would it be if it was kept 10 + 1/2 character level + dex modifier?

Not terribly for the character in question, though if you instituted it as a general rule you'd have to edit the DCs for every published monster with class levels that you use.

[babus]

Could you detail this a bit more?


Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.
Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.


The oddness is related to the bolded bit. The text itself specifies creatures with monster levels, which at the very least seems to imply monstrous humanoids are valid. Skip Williams (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a) made a statement concerning it, but FAQ/Sage/Skip/CustomerService is not actually official errata, so most people ignore him because his opinion on the matter would make the game less fun.

[Thurbane]

Could you detail this a bit more?

The relevant section of the SRD/MM (no access at the moment) is headed "Humanoids With Class Levels", which then goes on to say "creatures" with 1 racial HD swap it out for their first class level.

I've seen people, mainly Curmudgeon, strongly argue that the rule is only for Humanoids, unless a creature's description specifically states otherwise, like with the Pixie.

FWIW, my reading of the rule is the more permissive one, in that any playable creature with 1 racial HD should be allowed to swap it out for their first class level.

[TuggyNE]

The relevant section of the SRD/MM (no access at the moment) is headed "Humanoids With Class Levels", which then goes on to say "creatures" with 1 racial HD swap it out for their first class level.

I've seen people, mainly Curmudgeon, strongly argue that the rule is only for Humanoids, unless a creature's description specifically states otherwise, like with the Pixie.

FWIW, my reading of the rule is the more permissive one, in that any playable creature with 1 racial HD should be allowed to swap it out for their first class level.

Given that there's another section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel) or two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#otherStatisticsforMonsters) further down that support this, that seems like the only possible reading. In fact, that assumption even shows up in Improving Monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng).

[DementedFellow]

But Savage Species points out what happens to monsters with low racial hit die when they gain class levels. I don't see why it should matter if they are humanoid or not.

Is the argument only for core-only games or something?

[Urpriest]

But Savage Species points out what happens to monsters with low racial hit die when they gain class levels. I don't see why it should matter if they are humanoid or not.

Is the argument only for core-only games or something?

Savage Species is 3.0. Since it affects the base rules for playing monsters, any relevant rules from it would have been included in 3.5 if the designers had intended them to go forward.