Weapon Optimised - sugestions

[relytdan]

First this is the weapon I have chosen to work with, second I believe that all the appropriate factors are correct with the weapon
However knowing the good folks here at the playground maybe there is some better way to get more out of the weapon.. Sugestions Welcome.

Katana 243,250 GP

Pommel: Wrapped in red dragonhide, the grip ends in a pommel crafted of a 3-inch-long red dragon fang

Weapon: bonus +4 (+1 for aptitude) 3d8+8, 9–20/x4, 2.5lb., Slashing, Hardness:157 HP:81
melee attacks are resolved as melee touch attacks

Dwarvencraft, MW, Pure Ore, Starmetal, Mithral, Cold Iron, Heavy weapon, Aptitude, Wraithstrike, Augment Object, Hellforged Template
Acid Washed, Folded, Blood Grove, Thinaun, Platinum, Riverine, Abyssal Bloodiron, Spellblade, Mercurial, Dragonfang

Intimidate +10 (competence)
gains a +4 confirm crit
On critical hit, target subject to prismatic spray
ignoring hardness less than 20,
deal +1d6 to extraplanar while they are on the Material Plane
deal 1 extra to any that are flanked
deals 1 point of fire damage

saves +2, +20 break DC, unatended saving throw vs spells 2 + half caster lvl

immune to single selected spell, stored to wpn can discharge to new target or disapate
save +4 vs. acid, rust, disintergration
immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells
creature that died has soul is trapped

[Zombimode]

Dwarvencraft, MW, Pure Ore, Starmetal, Mithral, Cold Iron, Heavy weapon, Aptitude, Wraithstrike, Augment Object, Hellforged Template
Acid Washed, Folded, Blood Grove, Thinaun, Platinum, Riverine, Abyssal Bloodiron, Spellblade, Mercurial, Dragonfang

Explain to me, how this weapon is made from Starmetal, Mithral, Cold Iron, Thinaun, Platinum, Riverine and Abyssal Bloodiron at the same time?

[relytdan]

Dwarven crafted, they are called Alloys - and because RAW does not say I cannot.

[eggynack]

Dwarven crafted, they are called Alloys - and because RAW does not say I cannot.
Unless you have an actual workaround, it does actually say that. In particular, "If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material." (DMG page 283)

[relytdan]

"most prevalent material" in this instance for argument sake ( pure ore ) but could make it so all alloyed parts are exact at 11.11111111111%
An alloy is a mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements

i have what looks like 9 elements to my alloy list that my master dwarven swordsmith ( dwarven crafted ) will create aided as needed by my level 20 caster for magical properties effects ect...

11.12% Pure Ore
11.11% Starmetal
11.11% Mithral
11.11% Cold Iron
11.11% Thinaun
11.11% Platinum
11.11% Riverine
11.11% Abyssal Bloodiron
11.11% Mercurial

[eggynack]

"most prevalent material" in this instance for argument sake ( pure ore ) but could make it so all alloyed parts are exact at 11.11111111111%
An alloy is a mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements

i have what looks like 9 elements to my alloy list that my master dwarven swordsmith ( dwarven crafted ) will create aided as needed by my level 20 caster for magical properties effects ect...

11.12% Pure Ore
11.11% Starmetal
11.11% Mithral
11.11% Cold Iron
11.11% Thinaun
11.11% Platinum
11.11% Riverine
11.11% Abyssal Bloodiron
11.11% Mercurial
First off, alloys don't get placed into the "It doesn't say you can't" category. That's a rule that has to be stated in the affirmative. Second, I doubt that you can perfectly create a sword such that its metals are equally distributed on the atomic level. Seriously, you need actual rules backup for this.

[relytdan]

First off, alloys don't get placed into the "It doesn't say you can't" category. That's a rule that has to be stated in the affirmative. Second, I doubt that you can perfectly create a sword such that its metals are equally distributed on the atomic level. Seriously, you need actual rules backup for this.

show me the actule rules that shows exactly how the other special materials are created then please, it is an ALLOY! ( Steel 99% of all D&D mundane weapons is created from an ALLOY there is no set rule for HOW it is created is there !
get over it accept that it is an ALLOY it can be done and move on with the subject of the question.

[eggynack]

show me the actule rules that shows exactly how the other special materials are created then please, it is an ALLOY! ( Steel 99% of all D&D mundane weapons is created from an ALLOY there is no set rule for HOW it is created is there !
get over it accept that it is an ALLOY it can be done and move on with the subject of the question.
I don't think we can move on. You seek weapon optimization, which requires an actual familiarity with the base rules for weapons. The rules say that if you combine special materials on a weapon you only get one of the material abilities, so that's what happens. You claim that it doesn't say that you can't do this, but it does. Without a rule stating that you can make alloys, we must default to the current special material rules that say that you're wrong. The special material rules are right there in the book, so you should probably just read them and show yourself. If it is your desire to be an optimizer, it is your sworn responsibility to always act in accordance with the RAW, lest you fall down the path of the munchkin. If you want rules for alloys, find them in the books. If rules for alloys don't exist, you're just going to have to optimize your weapons in a different way.

[relytdan]

Without a rule stating that you can make alloys,.

then promptly and effectively in every game that you play a character ever again - do not use any Magical Metalic weapon or armor. I will guarantee (Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon) is the "most prevalent material" meaning your +1weapon of X is now a mundane POS.
the rules state "most prevalent material" if there is not a "most prevalent material" that equates to all are equal and as there is not a rule anywhere for alloy creation - And there are many cited examples of such (Long sword steel - alloy) ( Adamantine - Alloy ) ect.. it is not I that has to find the rule that says I can but rather you that need to say hey this is such and go with the question at hand so I will gather that the weapon is fine and move on -
Nuff Said

[eggynack]

then promptly and effectively in every game that you play a character ever again - do not use any Magical Metalic weapon or armor. I will guarantee (Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon) is the "most prevalent material" meaning your +1weapon of X is now a mundane POS.
the rules aastate "most prevalent material" if there is not a "most prevalent material" that equates to all are equal and as there is not a rule anywhere for alloy creation - And there are many sited examples of such (Long sword steel - alloy) ( Adamantine - Alloy ) ect.. it is not I that has to find the rule that says I can but rather you that need to say hey this is such and go with the question at hand so I will gather that the weapon is fine and move on -
Nuff Said
Steel doesn't work as a counterargument for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's an alloy of non-special materials. The rule I cited was specifically in reference to special materials. Second of all, even if both of the base materials were special, it would be a case of specific trumping general. There could be a new material that possessed the qualities of adamantine and mithral, but that would just prove that this one material existed. The rules are very explicit about what happens when you have more than one special material in your sword. You have to pick one of the special materials, and that's it.

[captain fubar]

Special Materials

In addition to magic items created with spells, some substances have innate special properties.

If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.

The materials have conflicting fluff starmetal has a inherant tie the the material plane, pure ore is anything found on the plane of elimental earth, dragon teath/fangs are not even metal they replace the metal componant entirely. that said some of the metals in your super aloy dont even do any thing why are you stacking cold iron with abysal blood iron?

So far as I know the only materials that have rules for making alloy from them are pure ore and oerth blood. In the case on any oerth blood alloy other than binding it to steel that would require a dm call as again there are no rules for it.

If your DM has rules for aloys we would need to know what they are to asist in you'r optomization project.

Sorry this is not more helpfull but if you post what you are looking to get out of the weapon we might be able to offer better advice than what you cant do.

[nyjastul69]

then promptly and effectively in every game that you play a character ever again - do not use any Magical Metalic weapon or armor. I will guarantee (Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon) is the "most prevalent material" meaning your +1weapon of X is now a mundane POS.
the rules state "most prevalent material" if there is not a "most prevalent material" that equates to all are equal and as there is not a rule anywhere for alloy creation - And there are many cited examples of such (Long sword steel - alloy) ( Adamantine - Alloy ) ect.. it is not I that has to find the rule that says I can but rather you that need to say hey this is such and go with the question at hand so I will gather that the weapon is fine and move on -
Nuff Said

Regardless of who is correct you may get more responses with a more polite tone. Also, where is Pure Ore from?

[Swaoeaeieu]

since the rule says the most prevailent metal is the metal wich traits it takes. And as you say, they are all equal. So there is actually no prevailent metal. So the weapons would get no special properties since there is no prevailent one.

and appart from the rules, i agree that optimization is not based on 'i can do this because it does not say i can't', it is about taking the rules that are given, and using them to your advantage.

i like the idea of making optimized weapons, and im keeping an eye on this thread. But just take one material and look at this guide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12837)

[relytdan]

the guide you refence is an UN-Official Source and does not count. ironically enough the author Daniel678 references one portion Alloys for Pure Ore (Dragon 347 p47) 400/lb gold

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041228a

Prerequisites: To make a magic weapon, armor, or shield, you need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor item creation feat.
The creator also must have a caster level at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon
Equipment and Materials: To make a magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you need a set of tools suitable for working the material from which the item is made, such as metalworking tools for a magic longsword. You also need a masterwork item to receive the magic, a fire source, and a collection of oddments similar to materials used to create wands. The rules don't specify the kind of fire source
Creation Cost: The monetary cost to create a magic weapon
Weapon, Armor, and Shield Miscellany: When a magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield is made from a special material, such as adamantine or mithral, the cost for the special material replaces the masterwork cost for the item because the costs for special materials generally include the cost for a masterwork item

Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor

SPECIAL MATERIALS
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one
special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent
material.

Adamantine: Found only in meteorites and the rarest of veins in magical areas

( So I located a Special Material consisting of virtually equal parts of
Pure Ore, Starmetal, Mithral, Thinaun, Platinum, Riverine, Abyssal Bloodiron, Mercurial...
Turns out the Cold iron effect is a portions of another thing that states it is treated as cold iron )

we know that Rule as it is Written for special materials says the benefit of the most prevelent it does not say just 1 material it says Most prevelent - and if there is not a most prevlent , then there could be the argument that NO benefit or ALL benefits are applied.
and in the grand scheme of a permissive rules set, it clearly does not say under special materials, you only get the benefit of one single material. though under Rules and Intended I am sure that is the case.
as for DM approval - like anything in the game EVERYTHING is subject to DM approval -

[Humble Master]

Alright, to be honest what you are suggesting of this super-alloy weapon is more in the realm of munchkinism that optimization. The rules clearly state that if a weapon is made of multiple special materials then only the most prevalent one grants its benefits. There are no rules for when the special materials are all equal so saying that they all take effect is basically making your own rules up.

[Deophaun]

we know that Rule as it is Written for special materials says the benefit of the most prevelent it does not say just 1 material it says Most prevelent - and if there is not a most prevlent , then there could be the argument that NO benefit or ALL benefits are applied.
Well sure. There are also arguments that water is not wet and 2 + 2 = 5. But there is no logical argument that all benefits are applied, as the premises ((a)The weapon is made of more than 1 material (b)In weapons with more than one material, only the most prevalent material applies (c)This weapon has no material that is the most prevalent) add up to just a single conclusion.

But if you have a DM that will allow it... well... why are you wasting such permissiveness on a weapon?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Katana 243,250 GP

Weapon: bonus +4 (+1 for aptitude) 3d8+8, 9–20/x4, 2.5lb., Slashing, Hardness:157 HP:81

Dwarvencraft, MW, Pure Ore, Starmetal, Mithral, Cold Iron, Heavy weapon, Aptitude, Wraithstrike, Augment Object, Hellforged Template
Acid Washed, Folded, Blood Grove, Thinaun, Platinum, Riverine, Abyssal Bloodiron, Spellblade, Mercurial, Dragonfang


Taking a break from the material discussion since it is going nowhere. I have some other quistions. Could you explain some things to me?

1) what is the MW in you list?
2) Hellforged need the weapon to be made by some hell-living creature, does this not contradict dwarvencraft?
3)Wraithstrike and Augment Object are spells wich eventually run out. Did you permanency them? Did you calculate the price for that too?
4)Heavy weapon is a 3.0 thing and does the same thing as platinum (i think) why do both?
5) How did you get a crit from 9-20? that is just huge!
6) Aptitude makes you able to use a feat concerning one weapon on this one, what feat are you planning with this weapon?
7) Is katana a exotic weapon? If it isn't you'll need exotic prof. now because of the platinum. maybe give it the skilfull enchant?

Oh and BTW, i wasn't saying that guide has the true rules, just pointing you to a collection of cool weapon modifications.

[DeusMortuusEst]

@relytdan: If you come here for advice I'd suggest keeping a slightly more polite tone. Right now you're just coming off as a munchkin, not an optimizer, and refusing to realize that you might have misread the rules does not help you the slightest.

The people on this forum are generally very helpful and collectively they can probably churn out a build for every concept there is that would be as optimized as possible. That however, requires you to listen to their advice.

My 2 cp.

[captain fubar]

OK so say you have DM aproval for alloys how is he or she calculating the items HP? are the prices from each metal added do you get a discount for using less of each metal or multiplyed for the dificulty of smelting shch an obscure ore? what would weight of this alloy be?

untill you can tell us how the alloy rules function in your game all we can do is point out that this item looks like the result of some sort of home brew.

Also I see that the effects of several enchantments are included with out acualy lableing it as prismic burst, and imunity to rust probibly comes from blue shine,

Personly I don't think combining weapon materals is likely to be game breaking however the price on each aditional material should be kept suficently high that it would be counter productive to include more of them than what complements the build using it.

[Deophaun]

7) Is katana a exotic weapon? If it isn't you'll need exotic prof. now because of the platinum. maybe give it the skilfull enchant?
A katana is nothing more than a masterwork bastard sword. So normally you'd only need the exotic weapon proficiency if you wanted to wield it one-handed.

[Swaoeaeieu]

A katana is nothing more than a masterwork bastard sword. So normally you'd only need the exotic weapon proficiency if you wanted to wield it one-handed.

ok cool. i keep forgetting about katana's. still need exotic when its platinum (magic of fearun)

[danzibr]

Consider it says the prevalent material (note the lack of the pluralizing s), I doubt most DM's would let that fly. I mean, your DM might be nice, but you usually don't optimize with respect to generosity of DM's.

[Big Fau]

then promptly and effectively in every game that you play a character ever again - do not use any Magical Metalic weapon or armor. I will guarantee (Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, including carbon) is the "most prevalent material" meaning your +1weapon of X is now a mundane POS.
the rules state "most prevalent material" if there is not a "most prevalent material" that equates to all are equal and as there is not a rule anywhere for alloy creation - And there are many cited examples of such (Long sword steel - alloy) ( Adamantine - Alloy ) ect.. it is not I that has to find the rule that says I can but rather you that need to say hey this is such and go with the question at hand so I will gather that the weapon is fine and move on -
Nuff Said

Steel has rules governing the material itself, despite being an alloy. It is considered a unique form of metal (in fact, it's entirely plausible that steel is a naturally occurring ore in some D&D campaigns).

Your argument is fallacious.

[dascarletm]

An aside to alloys: (Mostly fluff stuff)
I allow alloys of special materials work, but it's usually more of a story side-plot then a hard-fast rule, and even then alloys don't normally just add the two metal properties together. Take solder for example: the resultant alloy of tin+lead has a melting point lower than either base metal, and electronic properties not seen in either base as well. To assume that they just add their properties together, from a fluff sense, is rather quite obtuse. However, if the DM is down to let alloys work, the %'s are probably going to be found in trial and error, and in that case you are just homebrew anyway.

Don't waste most of your bonus on just additional +1s. Add something else, I like the ones that let you move your enemies in the MIC, Transmuting also helps overcome DR and such. I say well worth the +2, and lets you focus on one weapon type.

[Ketiara]

Isn't an item costing more than 200k considered epic and multiplied by x10?

[ericp65]

It was precisely the rules regarding special materials that led me to abandon that kaorti resin in favor of pure ore and Hizagkuur (plus the mental image of the blade flopping and hanging like a wet noodle). Without the rules, one might as well declare that the weapon is composed of all known materials, with an added ability to change which property applies with every strike.

[dascarletm]

Isn't an item costing more than 200k considered epic and multiplied by x10?

As I recall that was either only enchantments worth of gold (Spec mats and base price not included) or only for +10 enchant bonus worth items. I thought you could go over on properties that just have a listed gold price not a + price.

[The Fury]

Steel has rules governing the material itself, despite being an alloy. It is considered a unique form of metal (in fact, it's entirely plausible that steel is a naturally occurring ore in some D&D campaigns).

Your argument is fallacious.

Also worth considering that while steel is an iron alloy, it's an alloy of real world materials. Chemists and materials scientists are familiar with both iron and carbon and their various properties, (yeah, I know I'm oversimplifying here.) Mithral is a made-up material and it's left unknown how hard or how malleable it is, much less how it's made up chemically. So there really is no way to know what you'll get if you try to alloy it with Adamantine. Metallurgy is pretty fascinating and complicated stuff, so knowing what to combine with what else for which result is the difference between an awesome super-alloy and a useless pot metal. At least that's what my layperson's understanding of the subject tells me.
Also, you should probably consider that if random strangers on the internet will argue about this, your DM probably will too.

[RFLS]

we know that Rule as it is Written for special materials says the benefit of the most prevelent it does not say just 1 material it says Most prevelent - and if there is not a most prevlent , then there could be the argument that NO benefit or ALL benefits are applied.
and in the grand scheme of a permissive rules set, it clearly does not say under special materials, you only get the benefit of one single material. though under Rules and Intended I am sure that is the case.
as for DM approval - like anything in the game EVERYTHING is subject to DM approval -

You seem to have a few misunderstandings here, based mostly on lack of grasp of the definitions in play. Here you go:


Permissive game: The rules explicitly tell you what you can do. If the rules don't cover something, you can't do it.
"most prevalent material": "most" is superlative; it's setting the condition as an absolute. "Material" is singular; there can, by the rules, only be one of these. The phrase leaves no room for maneuvering on the alloying of materials. Arguing otherwise is blatantly ignoring the RAW of the subject.


Your Rule 0 based argument is...silly. Of course the DM can allow you to do things. He can also allow you to be a 49 foot tall purple chicken with 12 heads, armed with grenade launchers. If you want to actually discuss optimization, don't attempt to Rule 0 your mistakes away. That's just not how it works :smallannoyed: TO/PO aren't ever based on Rule 0.

[iDesu]

Your Rule 0 based argument is...silly. Of course the DM can allow you to do things. He can also allow you to be a 49 foot tall purple chicken with 12 heads, armed with grenade launchers. If you want to actually discuss optimization, don't attempt to Rule 0 your mistakes away. That's just not how it works :smallannoyed: TO/PO aren't ever based on Rule 0.

Irrelevant to the actual topic, but wouldn't that be possible with Master Transmogrifist, the spell giant size, the grande launchers from the DMG, and liberal use of prestidigitation?

[RFLS]

Irrelevant to the actual topic, but wouldn't that be possible with Master Transmogrifist, the spell giant size, the grande launchers from the DMG, and liberal use of prestidigitation?

...probably. *goes and cries* Although the grenade launchers in the DM are specifically alternate rules; you'd have to try a little harder in that department.

[iDesu]

...probably. *goes and cries* Although the grenade launchers in the DM are specifically alternate rules; you'd have to try a little harder in that department.

Yeah, I felt the grenade launcher was the weak part. It only does 4d6 damage and can only be fired once a round, so I guess we could just refluff a wand of fireball.

[RFLS]

Yeah, I felt the grenade launcher was the weak part. It only does 4d6 damage and can only be fired once a round, so I guess we could just refluff a wand of fireball.

Resetting traps of fireball, or perhaps a way to lob explosive runes would also probably work.

[Immabozo]

I'm sorry if someone mentioned this, I only read about half the thread.

Who's to say what happens when you mix adamantine and mithral? Who's to say that the resulting metal is stable? Or perhaps it is FAR too brittle to make anything useful? perhaps the lightness of the mithral would make the hardness of the adamantite less effective? Maybe it is just as effective as you think? What about adding starmetal, or all the other ones? How do you know that this mix doesn't make the metalic D&D version of C4? Whose to say that the mix doesn't have great function and new and unforeseen qualities? What if this is super brittle unless tempered (like steel) or requires smelting methods as yet undeveloped?

There is also the unwritten rule of most real world physics are applicable in D&D (such as portable hole + bag of holding) and I challenge you to find someone who has experimented with smelting Adamantine, Mithral, Starmetal, etc.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I know this is the internet, so there is enough critisism to spare, but the point has been made about alloys. Let's keep on track here, and that is creating cool weapons.

here is one i put together a while back, anyone have some suggestions to make is smashier?
Greathorn minotaur warhammer: 3d6, 19-20 x4 (for large)
Made from platinum/oerthblood alloy. 4d6 dmg. +1 attack and dmg -1 to saves on hit (1 round) +7000 gp + 6000 gp (MoF and drag mag 351)
Pure ore (dragon mag 347) 400 gp/lb. Hp and hardness *2
Dwarvencraft. Hardness +2 hp +10 +2 on saving throws 600 gp. (RoS)
Ornate. +2 on intimidate 100 gp (drag 358)
Acid washed. +4 against acid, rust and disintegrate. 200 gp (drag 358)
Wand chamber 100 gp (DS)
Quicksilver/Iron-Filled (Dragon Annual 5, p28) +2 dmg 5000 gp
Folded Metal (Dragon 358 p40) 200 gp +4 to hardness
Perfect Balance (Dragon 358 p42) 100 gp +1 bonus to AC when taking total defense action
Resilient (Dragon 358 p42) 200 gp +5 hitpoints
Pitspawned. (DMG2) +2 to confirm crits 1000 gp


Skillful +2 enchant. Anyone can use it. At BAB 3/4. (CA)
Balanced. +2 enchant. Can be used by person one size smaller. (AaEG)
Impact +1 enchant. Doubles crit range  17-20 (AaEG)

Platinum: hardness 10 30 hp per inch
Oerthblood: Hardness x2 hp x1.5

[RustyArmor]

I just question why you are fighting everyone tooth and nail over the material its made of when the weapon is so over powered that no amount of damage reduction matters. The thing crits more then 50% of the time with a x4 crit for gods sakes. Any DM that would even allow it would either quit before long or just make mobs with a trillion HP to have a chance against the thing. Or even worst, make an NPC with the same weapon that happens to go first and hit you with it. If you want everyone here to stand up and applaud this weapon and praise your cleverness it really isnt going to happen.

[TuggyNE]

the guide you refence is an UN-Official Source and does not count.

Others have addressed your other misconceptions, but I just wanted to note: yes, the handbook is unofficial, but it's likely to be correct for the most part, following the rules. If there's a mistake in it, it will only be found by knowing the rules better.

[dascarletm]

Using alloys would be purely up to the OP and his DM. However, we can help the guy with his enchantment bonus allotment. +4 total with (+3 and Aptitude?)

Could be better.

[Vaz]

Smoking, Hideaway, Morphing, Skillful, Sizing. Have it become any weapon of any size and be automatically proficient with it. It can even become so small it cannot be seen while permanently granting you concealment (20%).

Make it an Intelligent Item Familiar with Increased Sapience, giving it character levels. (Psion with a Totemist Dip for Mindsight).

[relytdan]

not intending to be un-polite tone in previous posts,
just wish folk would review what the question was and they got off on the materials - an appropriate question from them on such should have been - is the DM allowing alloyed of multi- special materials where rules as intended say 1...
anyways after reviewing some concerns and such I have rewritten this removed some redundant items or items that were not quite right.
as well as a complete breakdown on how. ( and to avoid the argument yet again the multi-alloyed metals are being allowed...)

Disciple of Dispater
Dispater: lvl 8 Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, insight bonus on attack and damage rolls +2
threat range triples. This ability does stack with the Improved Critical feat

So with Improved Critical threat range doubles :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 17-20
Iron Power(ex) threat range tripples :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 15-20
as they stack thats threat range 2x5=10 :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 9-20

Craft (weaponsmithing): Base DC 25
master dwarven weaponsmith level 20
Craft Magic Arms and Armor:
caster level 20

Katana: (Bastard Sword 223,435 gp 2d8 med 19–20/×4 7lb. Slashing, Hardness:56, HP:40)
Pommel: Wrapped in red dragonhide, the grip ends in a pommel crafted of a 3-inch-long red dragon fang

Cost breakdown in gp
Enhancments: 67,400
spells and skills: 124,000
Enhancement bonus +4: 32,000
- EPIC - Has a market price above 200,000 gp - not including material costs for Weapons or material component or experience point-based costs
-is not Epic-

Attack Bonus:+2 untyped, +3 enhancement bonus
Damage Bonus:+2 untyped, +1 fire, +1&+3 enhancement bonus, +1d6 to extraplanar

Base Katana (Bastard Sword 1d10 med 19–20/×2 6 lb. Slashing, Hardness:10, HP:5)
Pure Ore (Bastard Sword 1d10 med 19–20/×2 6 lb. Slashing, Hardness:20, HP:10)
Dwarvencraft (Bastard Sword 1d10 med 19–20/×2 6 lb. Slashing, Hardness:22, HP:20)
Folded (Bastard Sword 1d10 med 19–20/×2 6 lb. Slashing, Hardness:26, HP:20)
Heavy weapon (Bastard Sword 2d8 med 19–20/×2 6 lb. Slashing, Hardness:26, HP:20)
Platinum (Bastard Sword 2d8 med 19–20/×2 12 lb. Slashing, Hardness:26, HP:20)
Mercurial (Bastard Sword 2d8 med 19–20/×4 15 lb. Slashing, Hardness:26, HP:20)
Blood Grove (Bastard Sword 2d8 med 19–20/×2 12 lb. Slashing, Hardness:28, HP:20)
Augmented (Bastard Sword 2d8 med 19–20/×4 12 lb. Slashing, Hardness:56, HP:40)
Dragonfang ( 14 lb. )
Mithral ( 7 lb. )


+4 to confirm crit
+4 to resist shatter
+20 to the break DC of the weapon
+2 all save throws
+4 saves vs. acid, rust, disintergration
wielder is immune to single spell can be dismissed or retargeted
immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells
creature that dies soul captured
treated as cold iron
melee attacks are resolved as melee touch attacks


Pure Ore hardness 2x hp 2x, normal ore (Dragon 347 p47) 400/lb gold
Dwarvencraft always of masterwork, hardness +2 hp +10 +2 all save throws, (RoS, p159) 600 gold
Blood Grove reduce weight by 20% or 1/2 lb which ever is greater, hardness +2, (Dragon 358 p39) 100 gold
Folded hardness +4 (Dragon 358 p40) 200 gold
Master Worked result of dwarvencrafted, gain +1 untyped non-magical bonus to attack
Heavy weapon result of platinum, increase damage die 1d10 to 2d8 (dmg 28)
Acid Washed acid, rust, disintergration +4 saves (Dragon 358 p39) 100 gold
Spellblade wielder is immune to single spell can be dismissed or retargeted (PGtF, p120) 6,000 gold
Dragonfang Weight: 2 lb, 1 fire damage, (Draco, 117) 300 gold
Razor Sharp 1 extra damage (Dragon 358 p42) 1,000
Starmetal deal +1d6 to extraplanar while they are on the Material Plane, (CA) 5000 gold
Thinaun creature that dies soul captured, (CW, p136) 15000
Riverine immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells.(SW 128) 2000/lb gold
Mercurial weight increase by 25%, Critical Multiplier +2, 300gp
Riedran Crysteel 1 enhancement on damage hardness 10 hp 5, +4 to resist shatter, (ECS, p127) 1,500 gold
Platinum heavy weapon, 2x weight hardness 10 hp 8, Platinum (MoF, p180) 7000
Mithral always masterwork items hardness 15 hp 8, weight 50% less, 500/lb gold
Abyssal Bloodiron treated as cold iron, +4 to confirm crit, hardness 10 hp 8, (PlnH, 69) 10,000 gold
cold iron result of Abyssal Bloodiron, effectiveness against fey
Aptitude +1 bonus on attack & damage rolls (ToB 148) Price +1 bonus
Wraithstrike melee attacks are resolved as melee touch attacks
Augmented Object +20 to the break DC of the object and doubles its hardness and hit points
gains a saving throw against spells when unattended as if it were a magic item (save bonus equals 2 + half the caster level).
Intimidate +10 (competence)
Use-activated or continuous
Wraithstrike: 2 × 6 × 2000, multiply the cost by 4=96000
Augment Object: 3 × 6 × 2000, divide the cost in half=18000
skill Focus +10 (competence) 10X10X100 =10000

[RFLS]

-snip-

The breakdown is not the issue. The issue is that you're blatantly ignoring RAW and then claiming that you're optimizing. In two places, in fact. I notice you have it listed as an item of permanent Wraithstrike. You know that's illegal per the MIC, right?

[eggynack]

The breakdown is not the issue. The issue is that you're blatantly ignoring RAW and then claiming that you're optimizing. In two places, in fact. I notice you have it listed as an item of permanent Wraithstrike. You know that's illegal per the MIC, right?
Basically, this. If the question is, "How can I make the best possible weapon?" this blatantly doesn't work. If the question is, "How can I make the best possible weapon if I don't have to follow the rules?" this is blatantly not the best possible weapon. I mean, there's nothing in the rules that says that you can't pay 500 GP for a quarterstaff that gives you the casting of a 20th level wizard.

[Nettlekid]

Can I just point out something that I don't think anyone has yet to mention, but kind of blows an indisputable hole in the whole "alloy" thing (well, there are tons of hole, RAW and RAI, but here's another). Riverine isn't a metal. Riverine is made by sandwiching deep sea water with shaped Walls of Force. There is absolutely no way you can melt it down and alloy it with any kind of metal. It would be like trying to make paper by mixing equal parts wood pulp and the emotion of surprise. Unless you want to try to argue that you have a sword made of an alloy of all the other metals, with like a line of Riverine running in the middle, which means that A) You don't have a Riverine alloy, you have a metal corn dog with a Riverine sausage and thus anything that doesn't affect Riverine is still gonna wreak havoc on all the real metal in there, and B) Your sword is probably gonna fall apart because someone did a terrible job of crafting it. What with a stick of force in the middle and all.

Same thing kind of applies to Dragonfang, since it's, you know, a tooth. Not metal. And cannot be melted/alloyed. Unless maybe it's a Metallic Dragon's fang, like a Steel Dragon. Maybe. I'm not a dragon dentist, I dunno how that works.

Also, even if we imagine that it can be crafted the way you say it can (PS, it can't), it's......Not a great weapon. Sure, it does more damage than most weapons on a regular hit. Sure, it crits a lot (provided 9 and up still hits; remember, it's not a Crit Threat if it doesn't hit their AC normally. Even if your sword crit threats on 9, if 9+your attack bonus doesn't hit their AC, it's a miss anyway. Only Nat 20 is an autohit) but quite frankly, a sword is a sword. It doesn't have reach. It can be disarmed and deflected. If your enemy decides to hop several hundred feet away and pelt you with Orbs of Force, whatcha gonna do? If you fail your save against Peacebond, whatcha gonna do? If you manage to charge a Great Wyrm Dragon, get a Nat 20, deal 12d8+32 (average 86+6*Str) and a little extra with Prismatic Spray, what stops that beast from mauling you to Mount Celestia? Except maybe spells and all your precious magic items that work whether or not you break the rules to make a fancy little sword.

Also, disregarding a DM who I think would be justified in unleashing MDJ to take care of this munchkin creation, it's still obliterated by, say, Polymorph Any Object. Or a high CL caster with Phantasmal Thief to disarm you, and then THEY get your fancy weapon. You've made it moderately powerful while addressing no weaknesses that you'd face waving it around. I think I'll take an Omniweapon over this any day.

[TheSunKing]

While I agree with the silliness in the sheer amount of rules-ignoring "alloy" creation listed (really it just seems to be a list of everything that can modify a weapon), I need not go on about it. Others have done it for me. Now I will assume the "alloy" is fine and talk about something else.

Maybe I'm missing something, but with you (somehow) achieving 9-20 crit threat, why are you not using a scythe? 4x is beautiful, really.

[Nettlekid]

While I agree with the silliness in the sheer amount of rules-ignoring "alloy" creation listed (really it just seems to be a list of everything that can modify a weapon), I need not go on about it. Others have done it for me. Now I will assume the "alloy" is fine and talk about something else.

Maybe I'm missing something, but with you (somehow) achieving 9-20 crit threat, why are you not using a scythe? 4x is beautiful, really.

He's already got a x4 multiplier. I don't know how, but I assume he's incorporated Kaorti Resin into the "alloy." Which gives things a x4 crit multiplier.

By the way, the sword's threat range is wrong. Disciple of Dispater's ability does indeed stack with Improved Critical, but they aren't multiplicative. Hardly anything in D&D is. The way multipliers work is that each x2 is more like "add 100% of the original value." If you had a crit multiplier of x3, and an ability that said "double your crit multiplier," your crit multiplier is now x4, not x6. Similarly, with this crit threat range you have here, Katanas are 19-20, which is two numbers. Disciple of Dispater triples that (x3), so it's six numbers, which is 15-20. Improved Critical doubles it (so x3 doubled is x4 by D&D stacking rules) which is eight numbers, 13-20. So it's less good than you thought.

Sorry I didn't notice that earlier, but if you had started with an 18-20 weapon like a Kukri or a Scimitar, then the Disciple of Dispater/Improved Critical combo does indeed bring it to 9-20, so I hadn't noticed anything wrong with that.

EDIT: Oh, true, I hadn't also considered that 3.0 works differently. But considering everything else about this sword that doesn't work, the 3.0/3.5 conversion differences seem like the least of our concerns.

[Deophaun]

Well, I'll ignore the material silliness.

The pricing for the +10 intimidate is wrong. There's a %50 markup for sharing a slot with other magical benefits. Similarly, the augment object price needs to be kicked up %50. But, why you would put this on a sword is beyond me, or why you'd have it at CL 6, or continuous. Augment Object lasts for 1 day/CL. Make a custom magic item that can cast Augment Object 1/day, CL 5. Now, once every five days, you use that to buff your sword.

And it should be noted that, since the sword is already a magic item, it doesn't gain a save bonus from Augment Object (or, at least, the save bonus it gets does not stack with what it gets for being a magic item; it may override if higher)

Mercurial doesn't exist as a property to be applied to any weapon. It is only associated with two specific weapons, neither of which is a katana/bastard sword. It's like trying to throw the adjectives "gnome," "bastard," and "composite" on a greataxe because other weapons used those adjectives. But hey, if you want a X4 crit multiplier and you are an unabashed munchkin, throw kaorti resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) onto your pile of materials. Or, you know, go all out and make it a composite mercurial katana, because who cares about rules at this point?

And the suboptimal enhancements have already been addressed.

The stacking rules you're using to calculate the threat range are wrong. Your threat range is 13-20, not 9-20 (2 * (2+(3-1))). It seems as if you were counting the original 19-20 THREE times.

And then I have to ask, why a katana? There are so many better weapons out there, especially if you're cranking the threat range. Something with a base 18-20 threat range would actually get you to a 9-20. Plus, if you're dumping all this money into a weapon, do you really want something that screams Mary Sue like a katana?

[Zombimode]

Disciple of Dispater
Dispater: lvl 8 Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, insight bonus on attack and damage rolls +2
threat range triples. This ability does stack with the Improved Critical feat

So with Improved Critical threat range doubles :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 17-20
Iron Power(ex) threat range tripples :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 15-20
as they stack thats threat range 2x5=10 :the 19-20 threat range is extended to 9-20

I wouldn't rely on that. Disciple of Dispater is not-quite-3.5 and as such needs to be updated. Now, there is no official update for BoVD or Disciple of Dispater in specific, so it's up to the DM. But its worth noting that standard procedure for crit range enhancers in 3.5 is not to stack.

[DeusMortuusEst]

And then I have to ask, why a katana? There are so many better weapons out there, especially if you're cranking the threat range. Something with a base 18-20 threat range would actually get you to a 9-20. Plus, if you're dumping all this money into a weapon, do you really want something that screams Mary Sue like a katana?

Because Katanas are the best weapon. Seriously, you can slice through a tank with one. And you never have to sharpen it. Because that's what happens when you fold metal several times. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/katanas-are-underpowered-in-d20)


I wouldn't rely on that. Disciple of Dispater is not-quite-3.5 and as such needs to be updated. Now, there is no official update for BoVD or Disciple of Dispater in specific, so it's up to the DM. But its worth noting that standard procedure for crit range enhancers in 3.5 is not to stack.

3.0 material which wasn't updated is still legal in 3.5, which can cause some confusion sometimes. DoD is a commonly used class when going crit-fishing.

@OP: I assume that you're already using Lightning Maces, since you got both DoD and Aptitude Weapon. If you don't, look it up and get it. I'd also recommend that you get gravestrike and golemstrike on your sword, either through wand chambers or with your continuous magic shenanigans.

[lsfreak]

Basically, this. If the question is, "How can I make the best possible weapon?" this blatantly doesn't work. If the question is, "How can I make the best possible weapon if I don't have to follow the rules?" this is blatantly not the best possible weapon. I mean, there's nothing in the rules that says that you can't pay 500 GP for a quarterstaff that gives you the casting of a 20th level wizard.

And to put it a little more gently: we cannot help you without assuming RAW and ONLY RAW. Because as soon as you go beyond RAW, we have no common ground and thus cannot offer any meaningful help without having all the relevant houserules listed out. Without them being pointed out, everyone will assume RAW (minus a tiny handful of broken stuff [monk's unarmed proficiency] and multiclassing penalties).

And just to be clear, again, the book doesn't have to say something's not possible. Only those things listed as possible, are possible.

[Swaoeaeieu]

weapon of continual wraithstrike? If i google just those words i am struck with an avalance of forum posts telling me that is just wrong. Rules say you can buy it. But somewhere (DMM?) it also says that you should adjust the price according to what it actually does. And almost everyone everywhere thinks continual wraithstrike should be a lot more expensive.
So it is actually rules legal, but it is just really cheesy to suggest it.

just put some wand chambers on it. or a poison dispenser, or one of the other cool weapon mods or all of them. This weapon could be cool (katanas are, and will be cool, always) but just stacking mods and materials will not do it. Give it a theme! some cool combo's! The playground can come up with some epicly awsome stuff if you tell us what your goal is here.

[eggynack]

weapon of continual wraithstrike? If i google just those words i am struck with an avalance of forum posts telling me that is just wrong. Rules say you can buy it. But somewhere (DMM?) it also says that you should adjust the price according to what it actually does. And almost everyone everywhere thinks continual wraithstrike should be a lot more expensive.
So it is actually rules legal, but it is just really cheesy to suggest it.

Actually, I believe that the consensus is that it's not really rules legal. The DMG guidelines are just guidelines, so they don't represent a wellspring of RAW. If an item is too powerful for what the guidelines would indicate, you adjust the price. It's the same problem that spell research has, in that it's completely and utterly DM dependent.

[relytdan]

as this is a dead subject I guess and there are holes.. the weapon gets dumped - please look for new idea - Exotic Great scimitar..

[Swaoeaeieu]

as this is a dead subject I guess and there are holes.. the weapon gets dumped - please look for new idea - Exotic Great scimitar..

what do you want it to do? massive damage? mage killing? crit fishing? look cool?

[Big Fau]

I wouldn't rely on that. Disciple of Dispater is not-quite-3.5 and as such needs to be updated. Now, there is no official update for BoVD or Disciple of Dispater in specific, so it's up to the DM. But its worth noting that standard procedure for crit range enhancers in 3.5 is not to stack.

The real issue is the wording of DoD: he has to use an iron or steel weapon to gain the benefit of the crit boost. :smallbiggrin:

[BeserkerNike]

Well the Katana could be made of 9 different metals.When katanas are crafted there are different ways they are made Soshu Kitae is the seven layers method using 3 different kinds of steel(Soft,Medium and Hard) and if we replace specific places of the katana with the metals used it could be made

[RFLS]

Well the Katana could be made of 9 different metals.When katanas are crafted there are different ways they are made Soshu Kitae is the seven layers method using 3 different kinds of steel(Soft,Medium and Hard) and if we replace specific places of the katana with the metals used it could be made

No. This has been covered. The rules on alloying special materials are explicitly clear. You can't do it. Unless we're out to murder catgirls, this discussion needs to stay inside the rules.

[dascarletm]

If the DM is allowing some new special material that is "an alloy" of a bunch of other spec mats and somehow has all their abilities, then that is between you and the group. We can however look at other aspects, I'd just leave the material out of discussion.

[Immabozo]

This is a giant post on why stacking rules are in place and why stacking doesn't work unless specified as stacking.

[TuggyNE]

No. This has been covered. The rules on alloying special materials are explicitly clear. You can't do it. Unless we're out to murder catgirls, this discussion needs to stay inside the rules.

Even if you are out to slay catgirls, the consensus would not be favorable to "alloys" containing things that aren't metal.