Druids, Natural spell, and casting unobtrusivly.

[SanguisAevum]

I see a lot of reference to Druids being able to use natural spell to cast spells in animal form and remain undetected.

I am confused. How is this possible given the listen and spot checks that attacking with spells would generate.

They still have to vocalise the spells (in growls / tweets / whatever) and thus are subject to a DC0 listen check (DC to hear "speech" is 0, and casting a verbal spell, either speaking or growling would class as speech IMO)

Obviously this check would be subject to distance penalties (+1dc per 10ft) so casting at extreme range would help to offset this, but you still need to be able see what your casting spells at so need line of sight / line of effect... which leads me to...

Spot checks... you face a -20 to your hide check while attacking, how would your target simply not spot the strangly growling animal doing strange things with its ears and muzzle?

[eggynack]

Well, if you're a bird of some sort, and your chirping causes magic to happen, nearby folks aren't necessarily going to connect the chirping to the magic. There's certainly some folks who would, but it's not everyone. Moreover, often better than casting such that enemies won't know you're casting, is casting such that enemies won't be able to effect you even if they do know you're casting. If there's a bunch of melee guys, and you're a bat thirty feet in the air, there's not all that much they can do to you while you summon bears at them. This is especially true if you cast wind wall, and if your first giant crocodile grapples the only wizard.

[Doxkid]

If my RAW memory is correct then being in another form does not help disguise your spell casting (Well...other than the +10 bonus to disguise checks. Might or might not apply to spellcasting depending on your DM). Not by itself anyway.

On the other hand...
------
DM: You hear birds tweeting-.
PC: Spellcraft check to identify the spell the bird is casting and I tumble into cover relative to the bird before casting Web at the bird.
Dm: What the hell man?
-
DM: A bear lumbers by. It pauses next to a tree, growls and paws at the ground."
PC 1: NO IT FREAKING DOESN'T! Because of my feats it provoked an attack of opportunity passing within twenty feet of me so I'll Trip it. If the attack lands the 'bear' is also grappled immediately afterwards. Feat chains FTW.
PC 2: I delay, waiting to see if it escapes to cast Blindness on it
PC 3: Manyshot sneak attack.
PC 4: I'll Pounce full attack it. Prone penalty to AC right?
DM: Oh come on guys! It's a bear! JUST a bear!
PC 3: Yeah, just like that flowerpot possessed by the Chain Devil was 'Just a few Tulips'. Not falling for it this time.
-

Their argument is a questionable extension of logic that lasts up until 6th level (Assuming I'm right and by RAW being in another form does nothing to help disguise things), give or take. If, for example, your level 1 PC was in a forest and you saw a bear roar while scratching itself...would your first assumption be that it is a druid casting Fireball? I somewhat doubt that unless that bear was directly in front of you, you are intimately familiar with the spell and and you are only paying attention to it.

If that bear then shot a ball of fire from its claws then yes, that would become a very valid assumption from then onward...but for more subtle magic most people wouldn't even think twice about it.

The people who actually matter (PCs, Villains and high level characters in general, especially spell casters) are so paranoid, used to magic and terrified (rightfully so, by the way) that they carefully watch anything ordinary and draw their weapons on anything that seems even slightly 'off'.

Which is kind of why they lived to be high level.

[Psyren]

The simplest explanation is in the feat itself:

"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell."

What this says to me is that your grunting and shuffling is, if not identical to the normal V and S components of a given spell, very close to being so. Close enough so that an onlooker can determine that (a) you're not just making random sounds, (b) if they're familiar with magic (i.e. ranks in Spellcraft) they can even make out the spell you're attempting, and (c) you're making sounds/performing movements that would be pretty weird for an animal to make, thus drawing attention to yourself even if other animals are in the vicinity.

[Doxkid]

^ While I would agree...anyone who recognizes a Fish or Octopus casting because of its 'grunting and squirming' is the Charades Champion of the world and deserves special mention.

[Deophaun]

If Natural Spell made your casting unobtrusive, there would be a higher DC associated with any Spellcraft check to recognize the spell. As it is just as easy to recognize a flaming sphere as cast by a human and a flaming sphere as cast by a bird with a Spellcraft check, the somatic and verbal components must be painfully obvious, maybe even exaggerated, in the animal form.

[SanguisAevum]

So far, everyone seems to agree... A druid casting spells as an animal is just as obvious as in human form.

So where does the "natural spell lets you cast without being noticed" sentiment come from?

Seriously, check any other thread regarding druids and natural spell, you will find people advocating that because your a little tweety bird in a tree, you can cast spells without getting noticed. In fact, There was a druid thread on the front page about 5 mins before i posted this... With people saying exactly that. (The reason i asked the question in the first place)

[Vaz]

I can't be bothered searching (sorry, It's late), but Wild shaping into a tweety bird means that you can hide in plain sight, at first, nobody expects the spanish inquisition a toad, warhorse, tweety bird, mangy dog, lizard etc to be a caster.

The question you are suggesting is also applicable to Spek Language: when dealing with a race that speaks abugugugugubugubu, without your permanancied Comprehend Languages, you are unsure if the witch doctor is putting a curse on you, or ACTUALLY casting Bestow Curse. The knowledge in spellcraft allows you to understand abugugugubugu/chirruping.

[avr]

Suppose a druid in human form casts a spell in a crowded restaurant, with a bunch of friends cooperating to hide him. Someone not close to the druid should have a harder time noticing that he's casting a spell, or picking out the druid if they do notice.

A druid in animal form with a whole bunch of other animals around making noise, whom the druid has used wild empathy on to inspire cooperation, is in a similar situation.

A lone crow on a fencepost, with no other animals larger than a mouse around, who starts casting chill metal is an entirely different matter. I agree that it should be nearly as easy to pick out as a human; the different vocalisations should make a slight difference even if no penalty is listed under wild shape. -2 circumstance perhaps.

[eggynack]

So far, everyone seems to agree... A druid casting spells as an animal is just as obvious as in human form.

So where does the "natural spell lets you cast without being noticed" sentiment come from?

Seriously, check any other thread regarding druids and natural spell, you will find people advocating that because your a little tweety bird in a tree, you can cast spells without getting noticed. In fact, There was a druid thread on the front page about 5 mins before i posted this... With people saying exactly that. (The reason i asked the question in the first place)
Well, my general sentiment is that if you're a little bird in a tree, you might get noticed, but what is anyone going to do about it? There are things folks can do, but the choices are more limited. Also, identifying a spell is the thing that's just as easy when you're in animal form. If the enemy has no ranks in spellcraft, presumably he'd be more likely to stab a spellcasting human than a spellcasting bird. Casters would still be capable of identifying the bird as the druid, because casters are always the best, but most folks are going to be pretty clueless.

[tyckspoon]

Seriously, check any other thread regarding druids and natural spell, you will find people advocating that because your a little tweety bird in a tree, you can cast spells without getting noticed. In fact, There was a druid thread on the front page about 5 mins before i posted this... With people saying exactly that. (The reason i asked the question in the first place)

Druids have a reasonable number of useful spells with Long range and distance penalties are really harsh. An Eagle sitting in a tree has a Hide modifier of +6 (+2 Dex +4 Small size.) If that Eagle is 400 feet away- easily close enough to drop an Entangle or a Sleet Storm on top of an entire party - you have a -40 modifier to Spot him. You're not seeing it until it reveals itself. It may do so when it casts, but then you've yielded the first move to a full caster. Have fun with that, simply spotting the bird-druid is the least of your problems.

[SanguisAevum]

I completely agree.

So the reference is for first strike and surpise factor. Ok that makes more sense.

[Thrudd]

I completely agree.

So the reference is for first strike and surpise factor. Ok that makes more sense.

Even after the tweety bird druid casts the first spell, the party may see him, but then he flies off into a the trees again. Have you ever tried to spot a single tiny bird in a forest? He could probably get two or three spells off before they really have a chance at striking at him, even though they know there is a bird casting spells at them.

[Cheiromancer]

------
DM: You hear birds tweeting-.
PC: Spellcraft check to identify the spell the bird is casting and I tumble into cover relative to the bird before casting Web at the bird.
Dm: What the hell man?
-
DM: A bear lumbers by. It pauses next to a tree, growls and paws at the ground."
PC 1: NO IT FREAKING DOESN'T! Because of my feats it provoked an attack of opportunity passing within twenty feet of me so I'll Trip it. If the attack lands the 'bear' is also grappled immediately afterwards. Feat chains FTW.
PC 2: I delay, waiting to see if it escapes to cast Blindness on it
PC 3: Manyshot sneak attack.
PC 4: I'll Pounce full attack it. Prone penalty to AC right?
DM: Oh come on guys! It's a bear! JUST a bear!
PC 3: Yeah, just like that flowerpot possessed by the Chain Devil was 'Just a few Tulips'. Not falling for it this time.
-


I just have to say - this is hilarious! :smallbiggrin: I've been smiling about it since you posted it. Thanks.

[Raendyn]

1st of all about the DC0 listen that increases by distance,

Now, about the identification, the answer is NO. the same way anyone understands anyone thatcasts a spell because he speaks the incantation and not just talks, the same way he also understands that the animal is casting because it doesnt make proper sounds.

Those sounds/moves substitution the feat provides doesnt let u bypass spellcraft check, it doesnt even increase the DC to understand the spell u cast.

Also even if stilled/silent anyone understands you are casting because you have the " look of intense concetration" as PHB states, same applies to WS for casting.(Hey that bird is so so weird, not flaping its wings and making weird not-birdy sounds) in this case you dont even ask if u can check out, DM should say u are entitled a Spellcraft check.

Only the skill trick (Concealed casting??? AFB atm) cancels all this mess.

[Tvtyrant]

I like the Owl for this. Owls sound like they are talking already, so I doubt the party is going to be assaulting them (if they can see the Owl Druid at night in the dark 400+ f.t away.)

Wooooo! Woooo! Woooo! "The party is suddenly grabbed the by the surrounding branches!"

[Spuddles]

I imagine the somatic bits of a bear casting spells looks a little like this (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/009/732/dancing.gif).

Or if druids wildshaped into bears don't actually look like people in fur suits, perhaps a little more like this (http://blog.likebright.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DancingBear.gif).


Even after the tweety bird druid casts the first spell, the party may see him, but then he flies off into a the trees again. Have you ever tried to spot a single tiny bird in a forest? He could probably get two or three spells off before they really have a chance at striking at him, even though they know there is a bird casting spells at them.

Or the party caster makes his listen check (DC 14, at most), makes his spellcraft check, identifies a hostile spell, immediate action to cast nerveskitter, rolls initiative, wins, and puts a Web on top of the "bird".

[TuggyNE]

Or the party caster makes his listen check (DC 14, at most), makes his spellcraft check, identifies a hostile spell, immediate action to cast nerveskitter, rolls initiative, wins, and puts a Web on top of the "bird".

Web is medium range (i.e., won't reach as far as entangle), and figuring out where the caster actually is not as simple as making a Listen check at the baseline DC. What's more, making the Spellcraft check logically requires being able to understand what's being said, which is a further +10 to the Listen DC.

[eggynack]

Or the party caster makes his listen check (DC 14, at most), makes his spellcraft check, identifies a hostile spell, immediate action to cast nerveskitter, rolls initiative, wins, and puts a Web on top of the "bird".
Well, that, or the druid wins initiative because druids have great initiative modifiers. A desmodu hunting bat has a base initiative of +7, which already beats the +6 or so I'd expect from a wizard with nerveskitter. They also get access to both primal instinct, which pushes that number to +12, and heart of water, which makes web utterly pointless. Also, the druid is presumably casting before the wizard is aware of him, because the wizard can't hear him cast until he casts. That means a surprise round right there. A well prepared druid would probably be fine.

[elonin]

Sure in the real world you don't think about the wildlife casting spells. In a DnD universe in which everyone has seen spells and mythical monsters it isn't a stretch to think that a bear might be someone who is shape changed etc. Assuming a spell with somatic components the animal is making gestures that are a bit unusual for normal.

On the other hand I think that one could take thematic casting feat and fluff that as animal movements.

[Blackhawk748]

honestly if the druid is a bird on a branch and he casts call lightning, im gonna be honest in saying that the party probably wouldnt have any idea where that came from as it comes out of the sky, i mean you have to SEE the caster to do a spellcraft check. So hide, cast, then hide again, i mean your a bird after all you look like you should be there.

[Spuddles]

Web is medium range (i.e., won't reach as far as entangle),

In the outlined scenario, the little bird isn't going to have anywhere near the max range of a long range spell. I wouldn't expect the bird to be more than 40 feet away if it's planning on flying around hiding in trees and "being hard to follow". If there are fewer trees than that, then it's not really very difficult to follow, is it?


and figuring out where the caster actually is not as simple as making a Listen check at the baseline DC.

You don't need to know what square it's in, only what 50 squares it might be in.


What's more, making the Spellcraft check logically requires being able to understand what's being said, which is a further +10 to the Listen DC.

While logical, it's not at all what the rules suggest:

Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

Listen DCs
-10 A battle
0 People talking1

1If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what’s being said, assuming that you understand the language.

15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

The DC to hear someone talking is DC0. Casting a spell requires a speaking voice. The only requirements to making a spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast is being able to hear the spell being cast.

So it would actually only be a DC4 listen check for our party spellcaster to notice the "bird" casting entangle.



Well, that, or the druid wins initiative because druids have great initiative modifiers. A desmodu hunting bat has a base initiative of +7, which already beats the +6 or so I'd expect from a wizard with nerveskitter. They also get access to both primal instinct, which pushes that number to +12, and heart of water, which makes web utterly pointless. Also, the druid is presumably casting before the wizard is aware of him, because the wizard can't hear him cast until he casts. That means a surprise round right there. A well prepared druid would probably be fine.

Is this Schrodinger's Druid or what? A Desmodu hunting bat is most definitely not a "small bird flitting from branch to branch."

And our optimized wizard has at least +17 to initiative. More if it has a dex bonus.


honestly if the druid is a bird on a branch and he casts call lightning, im gonna be honest in saying that the party probably wouldnt have any idea where that came from as it comes out of the sky, i mean you have to SEE the caster to do a spellcraft check. So hide, cast, then hide again, i mean your a bird after all you look like you should be there.

You can make spellcraft checks if you can hear the verbal component of a spell, so no, you don't need to be able to see anything.

[TuggyNE]

In the outlined scenario, the little bird isn't going to have anywhere near the max range of a long range spell. I wouldn't expect the bird to be more than 40 feet away if it's planning on flying around hiding in trees and "being hard to follow". If there are fewer trees than that, then it's not really very difficult to follow, is it?

Wait, what? Hiding is better the further away you are; being hard to follow is too. The only possible reasons to approach closer are a) you can't see your targets (but Wis-based caster with Spot in class says that's not a problem) or b) you need to be within range to cast a given spell. Careful selection of spells can probably ensure Long range engagement, and can certainly ensure Medium range engagement.


You don't need to know what square it's in, only what 50 squares it might be in.

Yes, and how do you know even that much? If you just barely make the Listen check to detect the sound at all, your ability to determine the direction and (more importantly) distance is likely to be significantly impaired.


While logical, it's not at all what the rules suggest:

Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

Listen DCs
-10 A battle
0 People talking1

1If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what’s being said, assuming that you understand the language.

15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

The DC to hear someone talking is DC0. Casting a spell requires a speaking voice. The only requirements to making a spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast is being able to hear the spell being cast.

So it would actually only be a DC4 listen check for our party spellcaster to notice the "bird" casting entangle.

Spellcraft does not specifically mention the need to understand the verbal components, no, but it is not especially difficult to make that minor leap (it is not particularly more difficult than it would be to rule that you need enough light to see by in order to use Decipher Script on an ink-based writing). Nor would you expect Spellcraft to mention the Listen DC adjustment, since most of the time it's not an issue (even if being able to hear is in question: for example, silence, Silent Spell, being deafened, some sort of impervious barrier, and so on and so forth could all completely prevent the verbal component from being heard without any Listen check at all). RAW, you might be correct, but the odds of finding a DM that rules that way, or even notices the issue to consider ruling it that way, seem fairly low.

Since the range is off as mentioned earlier, the DC for a level 6 Druid at proper stand-off distance is somewhere between 27 and 74; it's not entirely obvious what the adjustment for deducing general location from a Listen check is, but +20 seems too high, so let's say it's +10, which is the same as the adjustment to understand what's said, so the DCs are the same for each.

Oh yeah, and there's a pretty good chance that a Druid ambushing a party will get the benefit of distracted hearers, so that's another possible +5 to the DC.


And our optimized wizard has at least +17 to initiative. More if it has a dex bonus.

How is this accomplished? Also, the rest of the thread seems to assume mid-op, which this very definitely isn't.

[eggynack]

Is this Schrodinger's Druid or what? A Desmodu hunting bat is most definitely not a "small bird flitting from branch to branch."

And our optimized wizard has at least +17 to initiative. More if it has a dex bonus.
It's really not a Schrodinger's druid. I basically suggest the desmodu hunting bat every time someone asks for druid advice. Like, every time, even when the question at hand had nothing to do with wild shape forms. They have a good maneuverability, which is really important when you want to fly around and cast summon spells, and they have a high AC, which is pretty important when you want to not be hit. It's not relevant at level six, but at seven you get enhance wild shape, which gives 120 foot blindsight for hours/level, which is one of the better vision modes in the game. It's a fantastic wild shape form in general, and can flit from branch to branch, even if it has to do so while medium. You lose the +4 to hide from being small, but that's seriously not the biggest deal when your primary method of hiding is keeping your distance. You're also going to need to substantiate your +17 claim. Most wizards aren't going to push all of their resources into initiative, so it'd be nice to get some actual numerical support.