Most Broken Monster?

[Boci]

So I think I found a pretty broken creature: the Sphinx Mystery (Level 19 Brute) from MM 2. How bad is it? So bad that if you were to make an encounter featuring only them, your death will be declared a justifiable homicide and your former players will be entitled to monetary compensation from your estate to cover therapy. Why are they so bad:
1. They can daze you, as a minor action, with a range of 10, no attack roll required, at will, that also inflict 9 ongoing psychic damage

I could go on (they have an action point, which is strange for non-elite/solo monsters), but do I really need to? Also, the ongoing psychic damage? It’s not actually ongoing. You will take it every round, but just in case you had a defence against ongoing damage, it won’t work, because it’s not called ongoing damage (also you take it at the end of your turn, not the start. Oh yeah, that tactical edge will ensure victory).

Actually, I am going to go on, just in case some of you foolishly think they have some crippling weakness to justify this. They don’t. They are solid brutes with decent damage, fly 6 and the expected amount of hit points. And it obnoxiously has 3 separate attacks that knock you prone, one of which also pushes you 5 squares. So if you are melee you may find yourself in this situation:

DM: Okay, your turn. You are dazed, prone and 5 squares away from the Sphinx. What do you do?
Player: Cry whilst punching the ground repeatedly?
DM: Your dazed, one action only.

So did I miss something, or this a broken creature? Can you match it (I know needlefang drakeswarm is considered bad, but at least they will allow you to act whilst ripping you to shreds.)

[obryn]

MM2 still had some very serious monster design issues. :smallsmile:

My candidate is the Megapede from the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. It's an Elite, but it's clear that the designers built a Solo, just chopped its hit points in half, and called it a day. I had two in an encounter, and it was almost a TPK because these things chew up the action economy.

Take a close look: They have an AoE Close Burst 2 At-Will (huge considering they're ... huge). As an Effect, they use their melee basic on top of this, easily allowing focus fire on a single enemy. As Minor actions, they have both another melee attack on a recharge and an Area Burst 1 at-will. Note that under the right circumstances, they can use both on the same round. Meaning on one round...

(1) Close Burst 2 for 4d8+6
(2) Melee 2 for an annoying 4d8+2d6+6
(3) Melee 2 for 4d6+6
(4) Area Burst 1 for 4d8+6

and they an add an extra bit of damage on top of it when they need to.

http://i.imgur.com/5VuNdrN.png

-O

[Surrealistik]

Pound for pound (i.e. relative to its XP/type/level)? It's obviously the Balhannoth.

Look it up if you must know why; worst designed monster ever.

[Ashdate]

Clearly, what is needed is to run all of these monsters in an arena-like setting.

[Angel Bob]

We shall create a new Tomb of Horrors! :smallbiggrin:

[Wymmerdann]

Well I certainly can't find anything to top the Balhannoth. it was either written with the intent of a tpk, or in the ignorance of the option of using the invisibility after, rather than before, it's awesome burst attack. Added to the fact that powers of recharge/encounter power level are at-will? Utterly ridiculous.

Pound for pound, I've seen the Goblin Beast Marshal dish out some serious damage, as he scales well with the quality of his beast allies. Not broken, but capable of dishing out more damage than some other contenders for the title given his low level and strong aura/at-wills. Especially a pack of gray wolves, which become almost un-hittable by a melee oriented party.

[obryn]

Yeah, I made the mistake of using a Balhannoth a few years back.

NEVER AGAIN. It's clear the designers were flailing in the dark here; obviously an MM1 creature.

4e characters are made to handle all kinds of ridiculous BS, and I have no qualms about being a bit cruel or sadistic to my upper-Paragon party. (Really, it's completely called for.) But the Balhannoth is a paragon-tier unerrata'd Needlefang Drake Swarm.

-O

[Boci]

I actually didn't find balhannoths to be THAT bad. The damage was obsene, but it was spread evenly amougst the party, and with 2 leader (bard and cleric) everyone was kept bloodied but consious despite the daze lock, and the fey slaughter weapon wielded by the warden really threw a spanner in the works. I probably could have used better tactics, and the encounter was still one of the most difficult and annoying ones according to my players, but I honestly expected more given the reputation they had.

That megapede is a good one obryn.

[TheKoalaNxtDoor]

So, what's bad about the needlefang drake swarm? Or am i opening up a whole can of worms that we'd rather not get into?

[Boci]

I don't think its controversial, its just a level two soldier (so good defence and attack numbers) that can knock you prone as a minor action, attack you for 2d10+4 damage, and attack you for another 2d10+4 damage at the start of your turn. Its also a swarm, so easily half the party could be dealing half damage to it at such a low level.

[NecroRebel]

So, what's bad about the needlefang drake swarm? Or am i opening up a whole can of worms that we'd rather not get into?

They're level 2 monsters, so they're considered appropriate for very low-level parties. They're swarms, so they take half damage from everything that's not an area or close attack (that very low-level parties don't have much of). Prior to errata, they had the ability to attempt to knock prone any adjacent target at will as a minor action (meaning they did it twice per round), meaning that unless you were a dwarf, practically speaking you were going to get knocked prone and have great difficulty getting away from them. They get a free attack against anyone who starts their turn next to them. Their attacks did unreasonable amounts of damage, and doubly unreasonable amounts of damage against prone targets (which they got lots of chances to create).

Basically, they had the power to pull down any enemy, and did enough damage to skeletonize squishier targets in 2 rounds. Worse, they synergized extremely well with each other - 2 needlefang drake swarms were more than twice as powerful as 1, since they'd get more chances to knock targets down and then both would get to savage the prone character.

Their errata limited their prone-knocking power to 1/round and nearly halved their damage, but they're still nasty.

[Surrealistik]

I actually didn't find balhannoths to be THAT bad. The damage was obsene, but it was spread evenly amougst the party, and with 2 leader (bard and cleric) everyone was kept bloodied but consious despite the daze lock, and the fey slaughter weapon wielded by the warden really threw a spanner in the works. I probably could have used better tactics, and the encounter was still one of the most difficult and annoying ones according to my players, but I honestly expected more given the reputation they had.

That megapede is a good one obryn.

If it's your only target, and your party is high op and has hard counter elements, sure, you can deal, but that goes for just every monster in the game without exception. Hard control not predicated on immobilizing (i.e. stun, domination) can wreck a Balhannoth, as will anti-teleportation (obviously), but lack high level op and/or any kind of specific counterbuild and you will get destroyed or at least brutalized.

I mean, which monster is deadlier for its level and type?

In a nutshell, the Balhannoth hits everyone in the party every turn with above average accuracy for well above average damage for its level, has inflated defenses (especially after invisibility), becomes invisible at will, can stealth pretty much at will, almost always gets a surprise round, ignores most avenues of control, and ignores any kind of stealth, concealment and invisibility while bunching for autodaze spam vs everyone and the next close burst 3. You can't run, and you certainly can't hide.

[Boci]

If it's your only target, and your party is high op and has hard counter elements, sure, you can deal, but that goes for just every monster in the game without exception. Hard control not predicated on immobilizing (i.e. stun, domination) can wreck a Balhannoth, as will anti-teleportation (obviously), but lack high level op and/or any kind of specific counterbuild and you will get destroyed or at least brutalized.

Sure, I don't disagree its a badly desighned monster, I just feel its reputation as one has proceeded it leading to exaggerrated claims. You say stun and domination can wreck them, in my expirience those are the powers PCs will positivly discriminate towards in choosing and once my players found the fey slaughter weapon any defender they made would almost always wield one, so it becomes less "well with the the right tools anything can be easy" and more "its weak to things player like using".

Again, I don't dispute its a badly designed monster, I just question whether its the worst as everyone seems to think.


I mean, which monster is deadlier for its level and type?

That megapede? The needlefang drank swarm (as both can do concentrated damage against a singple party member).

[Surrealistik]

Sure, I don't disagree its a badly desighned monster, I just feel its reputation as one has proceeded it leading to exaggerrated claims. You say stun and domination can wreck them, in my expirience those are the powers PCs will positivly discriminate towards in choosing and once my players found the fey slaughter weapon any defender they made would almost always wield one, so it becomes less "well with the the right tools anything can be easy" and more "its weak to things player like using".

Again, I don't dispute its a badly designed monster, I just question whether its the worst as everyone seems to think.

The fact is that there are substantially fewer answers to the Balhannoth than most other badly designed/OP monsters and if you don't have them, you get wrecked/savaged straight up. Even if you do have them, it will be a reasonably deadly fight unless you can stun lock (hard by L7-12); this is what sets the Balhannoth apart. Teleport denial is not especially common in most parties btw even by Paragon, while dominate and stun are of extremely limited availability by L7-12. The Megapede and Needlefang Swarm by contrast, are both far easier to hard control and counter than the Balhannoth, and have more likely counters.




That megapede? The needlefang drank swarm (as both can do concentrated damage against a singple party member).

I'd disagree. Both are much easier to control. NFDS can be a nightmare but only in a wrong party where you have mostly meleers without much in the way of control; any rocking bursts and blasts and/or control (which in aggregate are significantly more common than the Balhannoth's weaknesses) can take it down pretty easily.

Megapede is laughably easy with control. Once those ranged attacks go and it blows its wad with the standard 1-2 punch of Psionic Erosion + Psionic Detonation, it's pretty well done vs any kind of exceedingly common immobilization based control or stun/dominate. It's also much more vulnerable to novaing.

[obryn]

Megapede is laughably easy with control. Once those ranged attacks go, it's pretty well done vs any kind of exceedingly common immobilization based control or stun/dominate. It's also much more vulnerable to novaing.
Yeah, I don't think the Megapede is as bad as the Balhannoth, and I'm the one who suggested it. :smallsmile:

It's just a solo action economy packed into a fraction of the XP cost. A pair of them is devastating; I wish I'd looked closer at them before throwing that BS against my party. As it stood, I gave them a bit of a mulligan.

Megapede is an obvious mistake in changing from solo to elite, and belongs on any list of broken 4e monsters. The Balhannoth is a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire system, the action economy, and the strength of conditions.

-------------

So I will add another terrible monster to the list: SWORD WRAITHS. These jerks belong in the top 5 worst monsters in the system. Let's see... At-will attack (reach 5) that Weakens (save ends!). Insubstantial. Regen 10. So it basically heals back the equivalent of 40 hp per round and might as well have 360 hit points (when it really has 90). Oh, and for the sucker punch, it can phase through walls, so it will go away and recharge whenever it wants to, for a round or two.

Oh, and it's an MM1 monster so it's not like it's a huge threat to the party's health, either, except through terrible boring attrition. 2d8+7 is laughable (avg. 16), and adding 2d6 (avg 7) for CA still makes it unthreatening. Stick 5 of them in a combat and watch the joy drain from your players' faces.

WotC figured out how bad this was by Monster Vault, but it still appeared in way too many adventures, perpetuating the "4e combat takes forever" meme. Because against Sword Wraiths? It really, really does.

-----

One more: MM1 Dracolich.

Stun with breath weapon, stun at-will as a reaction in a blast to interrupt attacks, stun everyone with Frightful Presence... It's a monster you don't really get to fight! Just ... look at!

-O

[Boci]

The fact is that there are substantially fewer answers to the Balhannoth than most other badly designed/OP monsters and if you don't have them, you get wrecked/savaged straight up.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure I'm convinced. Mainly for 3 reasons:
1. It doesn't matter how few options there are to do X if players are going to take them. And in my (admittadly limited) expirience they tend to.
2. Why are you assuming level 7-12 against an elite 13?
3. Daze. Its rather common and really effective against a balhannoth, which is strong because all of its actions synergize so well together.



I'd disagree. Both are much easier to control. NFDS can be a nightmare but only in a wrong party where you have mostly meleers without much in the way of control; any rocking bursts and blasts and/or control (which in aggregate are significantly more common than the Balhannoth's weaknesses) can take it down pretty easily.

Megapede is laughably easy with control. Once those ranged attacks go and it blows its wad with the standard 1-2 punch of Psionic Erosion + Psionic Detonation, it's pretty well done vs any kind of exceedingly common immobilization based control or stun/dominate. It's also much more vulnerable to novaing.

Good points, although even if you do manage to nova it, its only 40% of the encounter vs. the average party.

Edit: Nevermind, not the point of this thread. We can start another opne if you wish.



One more: MM1 Dracolich.

Stun with breath weapon, stun at-will as a reaction in a blast to interrupt attacks, stun everyone with Frightful Presence... It's a monster you don't really get to fight! Just ... look at!

-O

Yeah, I noticed that (also rather nice damage spike against stunned targets). Slightly related topic, but not any monster in specific:
Is it just me, or is dominate far more common than stun in early-mid paragon?

[Surrealistik]

Fair enough, but I'm not sure I'm convinced. Mainly for 3 reasons:
1. It doesn't matter how few options there are to do X if players are going to take them. And in my (admittadly limited) expirience they tend to.
2. Why are you assuming level 7-12 against an elite 13?
3. Daze. Its rather common and really effective against a balhannoth, which is strong because all of its actions synergize so well together.

Sorry, I meant 8-13, as that's the typical range at which you'd fight an L13 monster.

The thing with #1 is that unless most of your party is controller, stuns/dominate aren't going to be at all prominent by L8-13, and even then virtually all of the stun/dominate you can wield will be daily based.

As for Daze, yeah, it hobbles the Balhannoth, but it still gets to savage everyone, making it less vulnerable to this condition than most elites.


Good points, although even if you do manage to nova it, its only 40% of the encounter vs. the average party.


Encounter novas for a reasonably oped team could get the job done though by L10-15.


Totally agree about Sword Wraiths and Dracolich. MM1 was an embarrassing facepalm of a monster catalogue with the vast majority of entries being either too weak, or hilariously OP.

[Hal]

One more: MM1 Dracolich.

Stun with breath weapon, stun at-will as a reaction in a blast to interrupt attacks, stun everyone with Frightful Presence... It's a monster you don't really get to fight! Just ... look at!

-O

This is why I avoid monsters with daze/stun/dominate powers as a rule. Losing control of your character is no fun. In a small party, having a player taken out like that can be devastating. In a large party, you've just guaranteed that player will sit and watch everyone else play for a good 10 minutes. Really sucks the energy out of the room.

I tend to prefer other control statuses like movement affecting powers or damage triggers. If I absolutely have to have a dominating power, I adjust it to force a basic attack out of turn.

[Boci]

This is why I avoid monsters with daze/stun/dominate powers as a rule. Losing control of your character is no fun. In a small party, having a player taken out like that can be devastating. In a large party, you've just guaranteed that player will sit and watch everyone else play for a good 10 minutes. Really sucks the energy out of the room.

I tend to prefer other control statuses like movement affecting powers or damage triggers. If I absolutely have to have a dominating power, I adjust it to force a basic attack out of turn.

Fair enough on stunning, but I find dominating can still be fun for players. Just give them some fluff to work with. Do their allies suddenly appear to be monsters, is their mind crushed by the creatures titanic will, is a dark impulse that they had kept hidden suddenly brought to the surface?

[allonym]

Fair enough on stunning, but I find dominating can still be fun for players. Just give them some fluff to work with. Do their allies suddenly appear to be monsters, is their mind crushed by the creatures titanic will, is a dark impulse that they had kept hidden suddenly brought to the surface?

I agree. I recall one memorable instance where, in an Eberron game, I had become the (unofficial) party leader, being an officer, and a paladin, and having more experience with the system than most of the party so helping them out with advice and formulating party tactics. And in a fight which was the climax of an arc, I got hit with Dominate, and I passed my at-will cards over to the DM. Then the sorcerer's turn came around, and he looked to me and said "What should I do?", and I responded "I'm not going to tell you." He looked confused for a moment, and asked "Why?", to which the DM responded, "Because he belongs to me now". Panicked realisation dawned...

On topic, I have to agree with the pre-errata Needlefang Drake Swarm, for the simple reason of its level. A lot of starting level games will follow a theme, usually either undead, goblins or kobolds. And with kobold theme, the NFDS fits right in. And it's level 2, so you have no qualms putting a few of them in an encounter against a level 1 party. And then the players all get murdered. The fact that it's so low level is the thing. A newbie DM is less likely to realise how destructive it is, and a newbie party confronted with it will go to pieces and have a very rude awakening.

The monster manual 1 has a lot of issues. Are we only discussing the most overpowered monsters? Because there are a lot of laughably weak solos out there.

I'd also like to submit the pre-errata Night Hag for consideration. It has some annoying and poorly-thought-out abilities (save ends stun at will, and the ability to jump into a stunned enemy and deal them damage until they are no longer stunned, being immune from attack until then), especially for a non-elite, but the thing which made them broken, in the sense of breaching the underlying assumptions of the game, is their encounter power:
Wave of sleep, recharge 5+, close blast 5, +17 vs will. Does a bit of damage, and save ends dazed. But if they fail their save... "First failed save: The target falls unconscious (no save)".
Firstly, it would be unlikely but certainly within the realms of possibility to get the party lynchpins (the healer and the defender, say) or even the entire party to be unconscious, at which point they are screwed.
Secondly, unconscious? Seems a bit much. Especially as a recharge power on a normal monster.
Thirdly, and most importantly, NO SAVE!? Bear in mind that those few things out there which remove effects without making reference to a save were pretty much nowhere to be found at this point, since this is MM1. How do you wake your friend up? It doesn't even state that it wears off if the monster is dead, or after an extended rest. It's worse than death, because a dead person can be raised! You may have to kill your friend to get him out of that...
And speaking of killing, finally, the synergy with the aforementioned ability to disappear into a stunned or unconscious person, remaining unattackable until the target is no longer stunned or unconscious, dealing damage each round, is essentially a death sentence. It's also a melee attack against will, with a +7 bonus for the target being unconscious, so it's not like it's likely to miss in the first place.
With an unlucky sequence of rolls (hitting the entire party, who all fail their saves...not that unlikely it would hit everyone, since this is a lurker with decent stealth and the ability to create its own darkness, so an ambush is likely), this normal level 14 monster could wipe out an entire party.

[obryn]

Fair enough on stunning, but I find dominating can still be fun for players. Just give them some fluff to work with. Do their allies suddenly appear to be monsters, is their mind crushed by the creatures titanic will, is a dark impulse that they had kept hidden suddenly brought to the surface?
I agree with this, overall. Even though Dominate is stronger, I'd rather Dominate a PC than stun them. At least they get to do something on their turn, even if it's making an attack roll against an ally.

Edit:

As for Daze, yeah, it hobbles the Balhannoth, but it still gets to savage everyone, making it less vulnerable to this condition than most elites.
Here's the thing with Dazing a Balhannoth... Yes, it works really well against them. But it's also just about the only way to get them. (Other than Stun/Dominate, which ... well, duh.) If you can't Daze at-will, or nearly at-will against them, you're hosed.


Totally agree about Sword Wraiths and Dracolich. MM1 was an embarrassing facepalm of a monster catalogue with the vast majority of entries being either too weak, or hilariously OP.
Yeah. I almost mentioned the entire line of Cyclopes. Those guys are terrible. Hilariously weak and boring for Paragon-tier enemies. (And let us not forget the MM1 Purple Worm!) But since this is about "broken" I was looking for overpowered.

Don't get me wrong. MM1 was groundbreaking in a lot of ways; remember, it's where we first got Shifty kobolds, tactical hobgoblins, etc. But I'd say over 3/4 of the monsters are unusable as written, and that's being charitable. It's part of the great tragedy of 4e upon release... So much stuff came out half-baked, but with great ideas behind it.

-O

[Inspectre]

The Balhannoth does get a serious nod, especially when you consider that back when the DMG1/MM1/PHB1 were the only things out, there weren't a lot of fancy tricks you could use to counter them like Fey Slaughter Weapons and a reasonably broad selection of daze/stun/dominate powers.

At that time I was in a game that had gone up from level 1 to paragon, and we encountered one with a group of hook horrors. The hook horrors weren't too bad but the balhannoth walked all over us until it eventually got wounded enough to decide it was time to run away. But that wasn't the worst of the worst in obnoxious encounters that we faced.

A few sessions later, the DM sent a team of Vrocks after us. Now, there's a bunch of different Vrocks out there, but back then there was only the MM1 version, a standard level 13 skirmisher . . . with a Recharge 6 Close Burst 3 Stun vs. Fort, and a Bloodied Reaction Close Burst 2 Daze vs. Fort. There is an encounter in the DMG called "wolf pack", which is a term for a team of 5-7 skirmisher monsters, depending on the XP budget. This means that if you have a wolf pack of MM1 Vrocks, they can roughly space their AoE stuns out such that one can always use it . . . every round for forever. Which is exactly what they did in this encounter, which annoyed everyone so much that the DM quit and the campaign died, right there. Now against people with a high Fort defense and some items/feats that allow bonus saving throws vs. Stun, that might not be too bad. But it's still a pretty anti-fun encounter, especially if you just walk around a corner and run into an adventuring party of Vrocks looking for trouble. :smallmad:

[Blackfang108]

The Balhannoth does get a serious nod, especially when you consider that back when the DMG1/MM1/PHB1 were the only things out, there weren't a lot of fancy tricks you could use to counter them like Fey Slaughter Weapons and a reasonably broad selection of daze/stun/dominate powers.

At that time I was in a game that had gone up from level 1 to paragon, and we encountered one with a group of hook horrors. The hook horrors weren't too bad but the balhannoth walked all over us until it eventually got wounded enough to decide it was time to run away. But that wasn't the worst of the worst in obnoxious encounters that we faced.

A few sessions later, the DM sent a team of Vrocks after us. Now, there's a bunch of different Vrocks out there, but back then there was only the MM1 version, a standard level 13 skirmisher . . . with a Recharge 6 Close Burst 3 Stun vs. Fort, and a Bloodied Reaction Close Burst 2 Daze vs. Fort. There is an encounter in the DMG called "wolf pack", which is a term for a team of 5-7 skirmisher monsters, depending on the XP budget. This means that if you have a wolf pack of MM1 Vrocks, they can roughly space their AoE stuns out such that one can always use it . . . every round for forever. Which is exactly what they did in this encounter, which annoyed everyone so much that the DM quit and the campaign died, right there. Now against people with a high Fort defense and some items/feats that allow bonus saving throws vs. Stun, that might not be too bad. But it's still a pretty anti-fun encounter, especially if you just walk around a corner and run into an adventuring party of Vrocks looking for trouble. :smallmad:

Hey, a use for the Deafened condition!

[Surrealistik]

It's important to note that there are all of 8 encounter, UENT dominate/stun powers accessible by 9-14 which is the expected level range for fighting a Balhannoth and they belong to 5 classes. 2 are immediates you probably won't get to use due to its AoE-autodaze, while 2 others are from specific paragon paths. Even as dailies go, stunning/domination by 9-14 is pretty rare, with only ~15 existing, several of them conditional or deferred (like Servitude in Death, or Tasha's Forcible Conscription)

In otherwords, unless your party is built in a pretty specific way, the _best_ answer you can be reasonably expected to have is dazing. Even if you can stunlock a Bal, it's probably going to cost you in dailies, which is overkill for a single Elite, so it still wins by forcing you to expend disproportionate resources.

[Boci]

It's important to note that there are all of 8 encounter, UENT dominate/stun powers accessible by 9-14 which is the expected level range for fighting a Balhannoth and they belong to 5 classes. 2 are immediates you probably won't get to use due to its AoE-autodaze, while 2 others are from specific paragon paths. Even as dailies go, stunning/domination by 9-14 is pretty rare, with only ~15 existing, several of them conditional or deferred (like Servitude in Death, or Tasha's Forcible Conscription)

There are also things like the cleric's banish.


In otherwords, unless your party is built in a pretty specific way, the _best_ answer you can be reasonably expected to have is dazing. Even if you can stunlock a Bal, it's probably going to cost you in dailies, which is overkill for a single Elite

An elite is a perfectly valid target for a daily, you're not going to fight a solo everyday. At least I assume you won't. I remember ending the day with unexpended dailies precisely because I was waiting for something worse that never appeared.

And thats why I would at the very least question any claim that an elite is the most broken monsters, because the PCs will outnumber them 2 to 1.

[Surrealistik]

There are also things like the cleric's banish.

I assume you mean Dismissal and Remove From Play effects; sure, but that generally buys you time to deal with lesser threats do you can focus fire/nova it later, it's not a de facto answer.


An elite is a perfectly valid target for a daily, you're not going to fight a solo everyday. At least I assume you won't. I remember ending the day with unexpended dailies precisely because I was waiting for something worse that never appeared.

Multiple dailies for a single elite is definitely not worth it, which would probably be required to keep the Balhannoth out of the battle short of save penalization.

Again, the bottom line really comes down to the weakness of the Balhannoth being a weakness of all mobs (Feyslaughter excepted), while it has fewer and rarer weaknesses relative to a vast preponderance of monsters.

[Boci]

I assume you mean Dismissal and Remove From Play effects;

Yes, I do.


Multiple dailies for a single elite is definitely not worth it, which would probably be required to keep the Balhannoth out of the battle short of save penalization.

A single stun/dominate followed by a series of dazes should work well enough. That may take multiple dailies, but not neccissarily.


Again, the bottom line really comes down to the weakness of the Balhannoth being a weakness of all mobs

Yes, but for example the sphinxes I mentioned in the OP would only be 50% as affected, because there would be twice as many of them (although being 6 levels higher the party will have more such options available).

[Surrealistik]

A single stun/dominate followed by a series of dazes should work well enough. That may take multiple dailies, but not neccissarily.

Personally I find dropping even one daily on an elite exclusively to be borderline in terms of return on investment, and that daily should just about nullify the target as a threat by itself. Stun + dazes could make a Balhannoth managable, but tell me what mob that strategy doesn't thwart? Again, you seem to be overemphasizing the specific solutions while losing sight of the fact that the monster is harder to control than just about everything else that's not a well designed new solo (which it compensates for by featuring at a 2.5:1 ratio vs a same level instance).


Yes, but for example the sphinxes I mentioned in the OP would only be 50% as affected, because there would be twice as many of them (although being 6 levels higher the party will have more such options available).

Enough additional options to trivialize the monster. The Sphinxes don't impress me for several reasons:


At the level range at which they'd be engaged, stun and domination, and even AoE daze, stun and domination, including on an encounter basis are pretty common.
Encounter novas that can devastate it in a single turn are abundant as is at-will focus fire that can do the same.
Resist is also fairly common as well, as is Superior Will.
Their damage is pretty anemic even if full damage from the Riddle is assumed vs the expected damage of a brute of its level ((5.5*3+5+4.5*2) - (19+8)*1.25 = 3.25 deficit) .
The Riddle provokes.
If the Riddle is answered, the character's move and standard action remain intact.

[Boci]

Meh its certainly possible, I was just laying out an alternative argument.


If the Riddle is answered, the character's move and standard action remain intact.

Have you got a quote for that? I don't doubt you, but similar situations came up before and I'd like to see an official ruling. What about the reverse, say a PCs moves and provokes from a monster that dazes with a basic attack, do they get another action after their move?

[Surrealistik]

Have you got a quote for that? I don't doubt you, but similar situations came up before and I'd like to see an official ruling. What about the reverse, say a PCs moves and provokes from a monster that dazes with a basic attack, do they get another action after their move?

In the reverse case, the PC's turn ends because it is subject to the daze.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/6522/after-removing-dazed-can-a-creature-use-its-other-actions

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/6525/dazing-as-an-opportunity-attack-or-readied-action

http://dungeonsmaster.com/2012/01/you-make-the-call-questions-about-rules-part-2/

[Boci]

In the reverse case, the PC's turn ends because it is subject to the daze.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/6522/after-removing-dazed-can-a-creature-use-its-other-actions

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/6525/dazing-as-an-opportunity-attack-or-readied-action

http://dungeonsmaster.com/2012/01/you-make-the-call-questions-about-rules-part-2/

Shame there's nothing official (unless I missed something). My group managed to rule the reverse in both cases, so at least we were consistent.

[Surrealistik]

Shame there's nothing official (unless I missed something). My group managed to rule the reverse in both cases, so at least we were consistent.

I believe one of those links reference Customer Service, and that's really about as official as it gets. On the flipside, CS is notorious for getting things horribly wrong (even though they do often get things right).

[Surrealistik]

Balhannoth fix using MM3 numbers and new anti-control/Lurker design convention:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MeDbk-2VMmKIZ3YGAfW81twDlf4ojG5XCjs9zMFMRBc/edit#heading=h.4htrdkz54prl

[Daveheart]

Just finished a session.

Fighter, wizard and rogue (LVL 10) against a MM1 LVL11 elite soldier monster.
The name should be Soul Eater or Devourer, I'm not sure because I only have the Italian MM1.

In the same room there was a Lamia (LVL 12 elite Controller) bottled up in a king-sized specimen container. The group fell for her trick and let her out, so we started a 2 vs 3 fight.

I thought it would get difficult, but doable. Now the fighter is down, the rogue has been eaten by the undead and the wizard is getting bitten by the Lamia.

Reason: the Lamia stunned everyone twice in a row (recharged the power) after hitting the fighter with her sustainable, ever hitting power and the undead pounded and removed said fighter a couple of times from the map.
From 60 hp to dying in two rounds with allies stunned.

Doesn't this qualify for this topic? Or did we do something wrong?
Please let me hear your opinion.

It felt a bit "meh"... Poor things. :smallfrown:

[georgie_leech]

Elite Monsters are generally designed with improved or more deadly abilities with the idea that they'll be at an action disadvantage with PC's. As there was only one PC more than Elite Monster, said action disadvantage didn't have much impact. On top of that the monsters were at a higher tier and so had access to nastier abilities than the PC's had.

I don't know that you did anything wrong per se; you just need to be aware that using multiple Elite's in a fight is a lot more lethal than using multiple regular monsters, especially without a Leader to help heal or mitigate status effects like stunned.

[Daveheart]

Thanks.

So, to stick to the topic, per se both of the monsters can be considered ok, correct?

Or did I choose particularly nasty critters (like the Balhannoth discussed before), underestimating their powers?

At first sight I thought they were balanced.

Lamia's stun must be recharged, maybe dealing 3d6+4 plus damage with a minor is a bit too strong, but it can be interrupted pushing the Lamia away, if they bothered to make a knowledge check.
The devourer's ability to remove a PC and use him to fuel an attack with a minor action is very powerful, but a save ends it and if the monster fails the main attack, that simply ends its turn.

Putting them together with 3 PCs was probably a mistake, but I was expecting also a ranger to be present and they were packed with healing potions: they simply did not have a chance to use them due to bad rolling. Anyway, not the main point, I can deal with it. My issue is: was my evaluation of the monsters as "not broken" wrong? I'm still missing experience.

[Delusion]

Mad wraith from MM1 is horrible. Yes, its Daze aura can be negated by dealing radiant damage IF party has a source of it which not all do. And if there are multiple mad wraiths spread out assisting some other monters...

[Akodo Makama]

Putting them together with 3 PCs was probably a mistake

Smaller parties make any random influences have proportionally greater effects. A little bad luck for a 5-man party can be deadly to a 3-man one.

[Shatteredtower]

By itself, the Balhannoth appears to be fine. Its damage output is subpar for a lurker. In fact, it only does average damage for a creature of its level when it has combat advantage. Its ability to constantly daze one or more opponents without ever having to make an attack roll is more of a problem... except this is the only thing that qualifies it as a proper lurker.

In general, a lurker needs to a turn to set itself up as a threat. A balhannoth can instead force some parties to lose a turn (and possibly provoke attacks of opportunity in the process) in order to function at close to full capacity. Even if it does come to that, a smart party should have no trouble besting the creature with an average resource expenditure. A party that's entirely melee based will find their task more difficult, but a DM should take that into account before preparing encounters like this.

A DM with a good grasp of tactics can make this thing into a nightmare, but a good one pays close attention to the creature's Intelligence and Wisdom scores. Those are high enough to justify having it go after what it perceives as the most vulnerable target, but its ability to judge will be based on things like the amount of damage a creature appears to have taken, rather than its defenses or maximum hit points. Sure, it can function more effectively under the control of a more intelligent creature, but even that only goes so far. Now if you're forced to fight the balhannoth on an 8 x 8 square battlefield while it's supported by a bunch of creatures that gain more powerful attacks when they have combat advantage... it's time to have a talk with your DM.

That's not to say the creature is well designed. There's something absurd about a blind creature with low intelligence recognizing an advantage to invsibility. Its ability to daze opponents without making an attack roll is also bad design, but it's not actually broken until a party nears or reaches epic tier. This level 13 creature never ceases to be a hazard even once it has only a 5% chance of hitting targets. At levels you should be facing it, it ought to be fine. There are several easy ways to fine tune it, but none should be necessary--so long as you can be trusted not to use the creature everywhere all the time after your party passes 9th level.

[Surrealistik]

Always the contrarian voice, but I guess I've come to expect that; normally I don't bother, but what you're saying might encourage a naive DM to make a bad decision by underestimating the Balhannoth that ruins his game in turn, so I'll bite.

Unlike a proper lurker, the Balhannoth does _both_ its set up and attack on the same turn as opposed to on separate turns; teleport + attack + invisibility all in the same stroke. Furthermore, its at-will damage is actually far above expectancy for its level assuming it has combat advantage (which it does pretty much all the time) given Whipping Tentacles, because it hits pretty much everything for _more_ than an MM3 L13's expected average damage for a _single target attack_ (22.5 vs 21), and has greater accuracy with the CA bonus. That said, per-turn damage expectancy is likely at least more than double that of a same level Elite since it's probably hitting at least 4 PCs with a close burst 3 as a large creature (8x8x8 area!).

Beyond this, autodazing, invisibility at-will, being impossible to hide from and extremely difficult to control compound this excessive damage output, and it is about guaranteed to get a surprise round.

Lastly, as a specialized predator who does nothing but hunt and stalk, it surely has enough cunning to use its abilities well despite animal level intelligence, particularly with that incredible 20 Wisdom.

[Boci]

Lastly, as a specialized predator who does nothing but hunt and stalk, it surely has enough cunning to use its abilities well despite animal level intelligence, particularly with that incredible 20 Wisdom.

Okay I agree with everything you said, except for this part. If you know a monster's abilities make it broken, why would you insist on making it more broken by arguing that it will use its abilities intelligently, when you have a leeway to argue otherwise?

After all, balhanoths may very well feed on 3rd level animals (or even minions), so many of their abilities may be overkill for their standard pray and they are not intelligent enough to go into battle knowing that the PCs are different.

Yes its a broken monster, but I am puzzled by your puzzled by your objection to make it slightly less broken by using subpar tactics.

[Surrealistik]

Oh, you can use subpar tactics certainly; it wouldn't intelligently target or prioritize enemies based upon what they do for example, with the exception of say damage or certain status effects (pain/striking me silly = bad), but its basic modus operandi of ambushing, stalking, using invisibility and autodaze/teleport to incapacitate and gain CA is reasonable and should be expected.

Also, as a L13 Elite, its prey probably and routinely includes a lot of normally deadly creatures as well; Balhannoths are pretty high up on the foodchain to be sure.

[Boci]

Also, as a L13 Elite, its prey probably and routinely includes a lot of normally deadly creatures as well;

Why? A hunter doesn't have a sense of fair play and they don't need experience. If there is a creature they can catch that poses little to no risk to themselves, they will choose that. And if there are enough to sustain it why hunt more dangerous creatures as well?

A balhonoth could hunt dangerous pray, but they shouldn't unless they have to. Again, you appear to be choosing to ignore a way to limit their impact.

[Surrealistik]

Why wouldn't it? If it's there and it doesn't cause the Balhannoth more grief than it's worth (anything Heroic tier or below conservatively) it will be stalked and eaten. Obviously if given an immediate choice between easy and difficult (or less easy) prey, it will go with the former, everything else being equal, but more dangerous creatures are surely a big part of its overall diet, particularly given that it frequents the Underdark.

No doubt things like Grells, Gnomes, Duergar and Drow often find themselves on the menu for example.

[Boci]

but more dangerous creatures are surely a big part of its overall diet

Are you basing that on anything?

[Surrealistik]

Generally the fact that its habitat is the Underdark and that it's probably not going to wait around hours for the weakest prey possible when it can eat immediately with an almost negligible difference in risk.

Let's keep it real; the difference between an L1-3 animal and an L6 demihuman probably doesn't mean much to a Balhannoth.

[Boci]

Generally the fact that its habitat is the Underdark and that it's probably not going to wait around hours for the weakest prey possible when it can eat immediately with an almost negligible difference in risk.

Let's keep it real; the difference between an L1-3 animal and an L6 demihuman probably doesn't mean much to a Balhannoth.

So my original point still stands. A balhanoth could go into the encounter not knowing this was "level appropriate" and may not be use to using its abilities to its full potential because it doesn't have to.

[Surrealistik]

So my original point still stands. A balhanoth could go into the encounter not knowing this was "level appropriate" and may not be use to using its abilities to its full potential because it doesn't have to.

But you're suggesting that it somehow has two separate engagement behaviours when predators tend to have a pretty consistent, instinctual and mechanical modus operandi that evolved because of its reliability and positive contribution to their fitness as a species. Even if it did employ separate engagement behaviours, do you think this would apply to prey like demihumans which are highly variable in their capabilities?

My point is that it applies a given predatory behaviour more or less uniformly, regardless of prey as that is most conducive to the fitness of its species. Rather than take a chance that something will kill it because it didn't use a full range of abilities, it always uses them, save perhaps in cases where a species tends not to display variability in its deadliness, and it's become acclimatized to that.

So sure, if for example, a Balhannoth preys about exclusively on a goblin/gnome settlement, has done so for awhile, and they're all weaklings, you could make the argument that it wouldn't, at least at first, go 'all out' vs the PCs. If however, it tends to encounter varied prey (or has been trained as some kind of guardian/attack beast), it's probably going to act conservatively without requiring a cue.

[Boci]

But you're suggesting that it somehow has two separate engagement behaviours when predators have a pretty consistent, instinctual and mechanical modus operandi that evolved because of its reliability and positive contribution to their fitness as a species.

Not really. Plenty of the more intelligent predators of the world use different tactics for different prey.


Even if it did employ separate engagement behaviours, do you think this would apply to prey like demihumans which are highly variable in their capabilities?

And the animal knows this how? It could only be by experience. I know the Pcs aren't the only adventurers, but adventures are meant to be at least somewhat rare. Its perfectly believable to say "this balhanoth has never encountered a humanoid above level 3, it does not think the Pcs pose any threat".

[Surrealistik]

Not really. Plenty of the more intelligent predators of the world use different tactics for different prey.

Sure, though, as said, even if we assume it uses different tactics for different prey, it's still probably going to tend to the conservative side of the scale for its engagements for unknown prey such as the PCs assuming it frequents an environment where it encounters a variety of species with a variety of capabilities, unless of course, it's been acclimatized to regard demihumans as being 'easy' food without notable exceptions.


And the animal knows this how? It could only be by experience. I know the Pcs aren't the only adventurers, but adventures are meant to be at least somewhat rare. Its perfectly believable to say "this balhanoth has never encountered a humanoid above level 3, it does not think the Pcs pose any threat".

It only takes one or two exceptions to create a lasting impression. Like I said in the very same post, you could certainly argue that if all the demihumans it encounters are weaklings, it would not regard the PCs as a threat; at least at first. After it gets walloped though in the first round, that Balhannoth is not going to be playing nice, assuming it's set on eating them.

[georgie_leech]

And the animal knows this how? It could only be by experience. I know the Pcs aren't the only adventurers, but adventures are meant to be at least somewhat rare. Its perfectly believable to say "this balhanoth has never encountered a humanoid above level 3, it does not think the Pcs pose any threat".

Or, with its 20 WIS and predatory instincts, have something similar to "Unknown threat level, treat with caution until further notice. The PC's certainly tend to do that even without that.

[Boci]

you could certainly argue that if all the demihumans it encounters are weaklings, it would not regard the PCs as a threat; at least at first. After it gets walloped though in the first round, that Balhannoth is not going to be playing nice, assuming it's set on eating them.

I agree, and I see no reason to decide otherwise if you are going to actually use the creature, assuming your PCs aren't optimized to hell and back/are several levels above 13.


Or, with its 20 WIS and predatory instincts, have something similar to "Unknown threat level, treat with caution until further notice. The PC's certainly tend to do that even without that.

You could. But if you know the monster is already broken, why would you do that?

[georgie_leech]

You could. But if you know the monster is already broken, why would you do that?

I wouldn't, but the capacity to play it so it isn't broken doesn't mean that it isn't broken by default. Oberoni fallacy and all that.

[Ashdate]

I'm not really sure that the rough intelligence of a monster is that relevant towards whether it's "broken" or not.

If you know a printed monster is too tough for its relative level and you're still using it, then presumably you've got a better plan or reason for using it than "well, it's only got an animal's intelligence."

[Boci]

Oberoni fallacy and all that.

If you think I committed that fallacy, you haven't read what I said properly.


I'm not really sure that the rough intelligence of a monster is that relevant towards whether it's "broken" or not.

If you know a printed monster is too tough for its relative level and you're still using it, then presumably you've got a better plan or reason for using it than "well, it's only got an animal's intelligence."

Sometimes that can easily be enough. For example, halve its HP. Its an animal, once its bloodied its going to go "This food is being far to unco-oprative and ouchy, I'm out". That combined with a sloppy opening attack (because these are the first humanoids above level 6 it has ever encountered) could be enough to make it a strong level 13 elite rather than a broken one. Maybe its still too much, but regardless tactics are a factor in whether or not an encounter is broken.

[Ashdate]

Maybe its still too much, but regardless tactics are a factor in whether or not an encounter is broken.

I think it goes without saying that particular tactics can absolutely make an encounter more/less difficult, but that's true of a variety of things that can't be contained within a monster's stat block.

I'm reminded of some arguments of when I used to play 3.5, that dragon's weren't very tough. Their defenders would say, "you're just playing them wrong," which I don't think was very convincing. Either those numbers that indicate the challenge of a monster (i.e. their level and experience) mean something, or they're not worth the paper they're printed on.

[Boci]

I think it goes without saying that particular tactics can absolutely make an encounter more/less difficult, but that's true of a variety of things that can't be contained within a monster's stat block.

But other factors are difficult to evaluate in a vacuum (I assume you mean stuff like terrain and how prepared/alert each side is). Tactics however still can be.


I'm reminded of some arguments of when I used to play 3.5, that dragon's weren't very tough. Their defenders would say, "you're just playing them wrong," which I don't think was very convincing. Either those numbers that indicate the challenge of a monster (i.e. their level and experience) mean something, or they're not worth the paper they're printed on.

I feel its a legitimate point, for 2 main reasons:

1. A lot of people played dragons the stereotypical way: fly in, enter melee like in George and the Dragon or any fairy tale involving a knight and a dragon. Intelligently played (and dragons tended to be at least average intelligence-wise) dragons had little reason to do this, at least not so soon. There's also the fact that dragons shouldn't stay in caves, since bulky creature capable of flight lose a an important advantage in such confined areas, So the traditional and game fluff of dragons often didn't mesh well with their mechanical abilities.

2. Spells. Some DMs didn't understand how much spells are worth, especially since dragon's were only half-casters. Properly used they change the fight a lot.

[georgie_leech]

If you think I committed that fallacy, you haven't read what I said properly.


You've argued that balhanoths can be played such that they're not unreasonably broken/difficult to fight against. That has little bearing on whether or not it's broken in the first place, much like the fact that just because you don't use 3E's Manipulate Form to make Pun-Pun doesn't mean it's not an ability ripe for abuse. Which part am I misunderstanding?

[Boci]

You've argued that balhanoths can be played such that they're not unreasonably broken/difficult to fight against.

No, I said "slightly less broken" and acknowledged that it was broken regardless of which approach to tactics you take. Big difference.

[Shatteredtower]

Always the contrarian voice, but I guess I've come to expect that

There's no call to be playing the matyred patron saint of naive DMs.


Unlike a proper lurker, the Balhannoth does _both_ its set up and attack on the same turn as opposed to on separate turns; teleport + attack + invisibility all in the same stroke.

Unlike a typical lurker, that is. "Proper" is such a misleading word.

Examine the combination. If it's teleport, attack, then invisibility, then the balhannoth isn't hidden, since the required Stealth check would be part of a move action. Starting the combination with invisibility is pretty much pointless, so the ideal is attack, invisibility, and teleport. A highly cunning creature knows it gets best effect from teleporting next to a target. One with low intelligence isn't likely to realize how this might give away its position. It's dull-witted enough to stick to its most vulnerable target like glue, teleporting to always remain adjacent to the same creature if it has a chance. It doesn't need a more complicated strategy than that, so why would it devise one? It's not like teleporting more than 2 squares helps the creature out much, since moving more than that applies a penalty to Stealth checks even for teleportation.

A funny thing about that high Wisdom score is that it might make the creature less likely to make opportunity attacks than might otherwise be the case. Oh, sure, it might take the first one, but that leaves it exposed to all of its prey at once.


Furthermore, its at-will damage is actually far above expectancy for its level assuming it has combat advantage (which it does pretty much all the time) given Whipping Tentacles, because it hits pretty much everything for _more_ than an MM3 L13's expected average damage for a _single target attack_ (22.5 vs 21), and has greater accuracy with the CA bonus. That said, per-turn damage expectancy is likely at least more than double that of a same level Elite since it's probably hitting at least 4 PCs with a close burst 3 as a large creature (8x8x8 area!).

So it does average damage for a soldier 10% more often if it either starts or ends its teleportation adjacent to a target and can potentially affect more than two creatures per round. Is it really that difficult for four allies to position themselves more than four squares away from one another? Sure, invisibility can still be a problem, but a party travelling the Underdark should be considering one or more encounter powers that address that particular issue (invisibility, not the Balhannoth).


Beyond this, autodazing, invisibility at-will, being impossible to hide from and extremely difficult to control compound this excessive damage output, and it is about guaranteed to get a surprise round.

If that's true of all of its allies, maybe, but a passive Perception score of 25 (assuming the creature is taking 10 on its Stealth check, the default assumption for situations like this) shouldn't give a paragon tier adventuring party trouble.


Lastly, as a specialized predator who does nothing but hunt and stalk, it surely has enough cunning to use its abilities well despite animal level intelligence, particularly with that incredible 20 Wisdom.

Well enough to run away the moment prey proves capable of coordinating attacks to hurt you back, you mean? Sure, there's that. There will be easier fish to terrorize and hunt.

[Surrealistik]

Unlike a typical lurker, that is. "Proper" is such a misleading word.

Proper is correct as alternating set up and attack turns is the current Lurker convention.


Examine the combination. If it's teleport, attack, then invisibility...

You seem confused; I wasn't advocating a specific order. The order obviously varies depending on the circumstance. Whatever allots the most CA for the Close burst 3 is the best option. In general, you're getting CA vs 2 characters minimum via teleportation (the PC you start and end the teleport beside). Further, the idea isn't to be 'hidden' at the end of each round, but to be hard(er) to hit. Outside of the surprise round/ambush, the Balhannoth doesn't care about being hidden, it cares about doing as much damage as possible as fast as possible. Arguing that the Balhannoth is too stupid to make use of Reality Shift or Invisibility to get CA as often as possible when it is so reliant on them and CA for success is not very convincing. Again, you might be able to argue that the Balhannoth doesn't take the PCs seriously initially depending on prior experience with demihumans, but once they cause it material harm, it's not pulling punches.


Further, the Balhannoth seems likely to engage in a way that attacks the greatest number of enemies harming it as possible, even if it focuses on a specific enemy above all, and tries to include it in every attack.


So it does average damage for a soldier 10% more...


? With an 8x8x8 at-will attack it deals above average single target damage for its level (brutes excepted) 5% more accurately. Normally an at-will AoE should be penalized for a minimum of 30% of its damage per MM3 standards. In otherwords it's doing, at minimum with CA, ~60% ((22.5/21)*1.05)/(1*.7) more damage to everyone in a huge AoE than it should.

In cramped caverns/dungeons where the Balhannoth tends to be? Spreading out so that you don't fall within an 8x8 area is probably a lot more difficult than you think as a practical matter, especially when it slides you adjacent to it after every hit. Besides this, half your party is likely to consist of meleers that will either have to resort to being ineffectual or straight up subject to autodazing + burst inclusion. While this mob can be easier to tackle in exceptionally wide open spaces, I don't really see that happening with regularity in the Underdark/most indoor environments.

Dealing with invisibility once an encounter isn't a stretch at high heroic or low paragon. Dealing with it the entire combat almost certainly is.


If that's true of all of its allies, maybe, but a passive Perception score of 25 (assuming the creature is taking 10 on its Stealth check, the default assumption for situations like this) shouldn't give a paragon tier adventuring party trouble.

PP of 29 would be needed. Its Stealth bonus is +19; this requires Perception optimization _and_ Wisdom specialization to get from L9 to 14. Breaking it down: Level bonus of 4 to 7 + 5 Trained, + 3 to 6 Wisdom + 10 Passive = 22 to 28.


Well enough to run away the moment prey proves capable of coordinating attacks to hurt you back, you mean? Sure, there's that. There will be easier fish to terrorize and hunt.

Sure, you can have it run when it gets bloodied and it has a flight path if you want to give your PCs a break.

Ultimately, a DM can of course contrive to have the PCs fight the Balhannoth in terrain that is disadvantageous to it, and have it act idiotically to help diminish the threat, but if you were to play the Balhannoth plausibly in my view, the PCs would get maybe a round of reprieve assuming it underestimates them. Further, unless the Balhannoth is played in a way that is about specifically and intentionally suboptimal, it remains a massive threat, especially in regards to a melee heavy party.

Balhannoths bred and trained as attack beasts would probably employ optimal tactics about all the time, especially when directed.

[Boci]

Sure, you can have it run when it gets bloodied and it has a flight path if you want to give your PCs a break.

Again, I mostly agree with what you are saying, but that bolded clause seems a bit unnecessary on a creature that can teleport 10 squares at will, twice per round. Even if its been hit by a fey slaughter weapon is can go invisible and double move, possibly up a sheer surface.


Ultimately, a DM can of course contrive to have the PCs fight the Balhannoth in terrain that is disadvantageous to it, and have it act idiotically to help diminish the threat, but if you were to play the Balhannoth plausibly in my view, the PCs would get maybe a round of reprieve assuming it underestimates them.

That whole "idiotic" thing is arguably a strawman, since no one in this threat has argued that by my count. If anything the reserve is idiotic: having animals, with no stake in the story of the PCs, fight them to the death because...reasons. But I'm sure all DMs use it at least every now and again, I know I do.

[Surrealistik]

That whole "idiotic" thing is arguably a strawman, since no one in this threat has argued that by my count. If anything the reserve is idiotic: having animals, with no stake in the story of the PCs, fight them to the death because...reasons. But I'm sure all DMs use it at least every now and again, I know I do.

By 'idiotic' I mean having the mob take actions in a way that is blatantly suboptimal and hard to justify, not a wild Balhannoth retreating when bloodied which I don't actually have a problem with.