Vancian Wizard VS Spell Point Wizard

[Xar Zarath]

ok so the basic premise of this is that some players do not like the vancian system while others love it. An alternative is using a spell point or mana variant system.

What if, to settle differences, we get 2 20th level Wizards, one a vancian the other a spell point system (Unearthed Arcana variant) to duke it out? (Optimize away if you want!)

Who would win?:smallamused:

(P.S Please don't resort to bashing or such, this is just suppose to be a healthy competition to the death between magical powerhouses:smallbiggrin:)

[Yora]

Probably spell point, because just switching to spell points as in Unaerthed Arcana brings a lot of benefit while including no drawbacks.

The limiting factores in psionics are augmentation and a limited amount of spells known. Having all spells automatically deal maximum damage and having the ability to memorize new spells every day is quite a significant boost.

[Psyren]

Unfortunately, the Spell Point system in its current state just makes the game even more unbalanced. There are a couple of reasons for this:

1) Spell Point Wizards keep the Vancian ability to change out their "spells known" each day through preparation, but also gain the advantage of only needing one copy of a given spell ready no matter how many times they plan on using it. For example, where a Vancian Wizard who expects to need 3 Lightning Bolts tomorrow must prepare it three times, a Spell Point Wizard only needs to prepare it once and can still cast it 3 times. If the Vancian Wizard ends up needing a 4th one, they are hosed, but the Spell Point Wizard does not have a similar problem.

2) "Augmenting" spells was only applied to blasting, i.e. if you want a blasty spell to do more damage, you must pour more points into it, just like a blasty psionic power. However, all the non-blasting spells still scale automatically with level. So you gain the flexibility of spell points instead of slots, but without the limiting factor of manual augmentation that psions have to deal with in many cases. For example, Dominate Person is automatically 1 day/level, but Psionic Dominate needs to be augmented to last that long.

3) Metamagic - both methods for applying metamagic to spell points are more powerful than normal. One makes you pay for the slot adjustment in points, but you're not required to prepare in advance and the casting time does not change. The other one effectively gives you Sudden Metamagic 3 times for every metamagic feat you take. As you can imagine, neither of these are exactly balanced.

[Rebel7284]

Two 20th level wizards? Whoever wins initiative. Rocket tag and all.

Spell point system allows for more frequent casting of the higher level spells, which is an advantage, but a well prepared wizard at high levels typically has enough slots anyway.

[Big Fau]

There's also the issue of spell levels. A normal wizard has to prepare spells of each level, while the spell point wizard can prepare spells of any level he can afford (meaning he can use higher level versions of everything). He may end up with less spells/day, but he also has more potent spells at any given time (IIRC, you could prepare up to 9 or so castings of something like Shapechange or Time Stop).

[ericp65]

Using spell points, I thought the caster must still select all the spells he/she wants for the day at each spell level, having a certain number of points available per spell level, and that he/she must assign all spell points accordingly, at least in the case of a Wizard (meaning no unspent points to be used on the fly). If that's not in the spell point rules, it must have been a house rule.

Someone pointed out to me, while critiquing my version of the spell point system, that the unbalanced aspect becomes very apparent when you gain access to 9th level spells. Rather than gaining a single slot, you suddenly have a large number of points available for selecting 9th level spells to toss around. I haven't arrived at a way to balance it, but something is clearly needed, whether it be an adjustment to the number of points gained per class level, or something else.

I'm with those who say the spell point caster would likely win the mage duel.

[Psyren]

Using spell points, I thought the caster must still select all the spells he/she wants for the day at each spell level, having a certain number of points available per spell level, and that he/she must assign all spell points accordingly, at least in the case of a Wizard (meaning no unspent points to be used on the fly). If that's not in the spell point rules, it must have been a house rule.

They do select the spells they want available at each spell level, using the exact same table as a Vancian Wizard. But unlike a vancian wizard, a SP wizard only has to prepare one copy of a spell, and can then cast that one spell as many times as he has points available.

For instance, a Vancian wizard in a 5-man party would need to prepare 5 copies of Fly to get everyone across a gap; before accounting for Int, he would not be able to do this until level 8, using his 3 3rd-level and 2 4th-level slots on Fly. The spell point wizard meanwhile only needs to prepare it once; if he uses all his spell points on Fly (again, not accounting for Int), he can get everyone across at 5th level.

[Segev]

An interesting way to attempt to adjust for this disparity would be to have "Spell Point" wizards have to pay an inflated cost in spell points for spells they have prepared "only once," but increasing discounts on them if they use more "memorized" slots on them.

So perhaps a Wizard with one "Fly" spell must spend 15 spell points on it, while a wizard who prepares it three times might only need to spend 5.


Under this paradigm, the Sorcerer would always get the most favorable spell-point-cost per spell, but is fixed in the number he knows.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have heard of a game that used spellpoint sorcerers along side Vancian wizards. It worked to make the two classes feel unique and boosted the sorcerer's power a bit more for the cost of a fixed spell list.

[ericp65]

They do select the spells they want available at each spell level, using the exact same table as a Vancian Wizard. But unlike a vancian wizard, a SP wizard only has to prepare one copy of a spell, and can then cast that one spell as many times as he has points available.

For instance, a Vancian wizard in a 5-man party would need to prepare 5 copies of Fly to get everyone across a gap; before accounting for Int, he would not be able to do this until level 8, using his 3 3rd-level and 2 4th-level slots on Fly. The spell point wizard meanwhile only needs to prepare it once; if he uses all his spell points on Fly (again, not accounting for Int), he can get everyone across at 5th level.

I see. I was unaware that you could simply prepare that way. I've always taken each spell level, and selected which spells (including multiple copies of a given spell) by dedicating the appropriate number of points to each. If I want to select five copies of Fly, I dedicate five times the number of points needed for one iteration of the spell. My way is less flexible, but in some way it satisfies my accounting mentality.

[ArqArturo]

To me, the sorcerer way of casting spells makes much more sense than the wizard/cleric/druid, since at least there's the 'my mind is tired, I know the spells but I'm exhausted, I can't cast no more' compared to '... I forgot the spell I just cast'.

Then, there's the Pathfinder Words spellcasting, which is pretty neat, since it lets you weave spells.

[Psyren]

I see. I was unaware that you could simply prepare that way.

Yep, it's explicitly allowed.

"Preparing Spells

With this variant, spellcasters still prepare spells as normal (assuming they normally prepare spells). In effect, casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day. They need not prepare multiple copies of the same spell, since they can cast any combination of their prepared spells each day (up to the limit of their spell points)."

The balancing factor was intended to be that spontaneous full casters like Sorcerers get more SP. But even that fails in practice because Wizards get access to the next spell level faster than Sorcerers do, and so end up with both higher spells and more bonus SP. For example, a 3rd-level SP Sorcerer with 18 Cha will have a total of 9 Spell Points (8 base + 1 bonus.) Meanwhile, a 3rd-level SP Wizard with 18 Int will have 11 Spell Points (7 base + 4 bonus.) The higher their casting stats get, the worse the gap grows. And that's not counting the advantage the wizard gets of being able to rotate their "spells known" each day.


To me, the sorcerer way of casting spells makes much more sense than the wizard/cleric/druid, since at least there's the 'my mind is tired, I know the spells but I'm exhausted, I can't cast no more' compared to '... I forgot the spell I just cast'.

It's not based on memory though - Vancian preparation amounts to "pre-casting" a spell. Basically you do most of your casting process in the morning and leave the last few words/syllables out, then when you're ready to actually use the spell you only need a small amount of time (in most cases a standard action) to finish up. This also explains how you are able to leave some slots empty and fill them in later - if you come across a block of free time during the day, you can use it to repeat the lengthy precasting process and fill in your blanks.

[Xar Zarath]

I have heard of a game that used spellpoint sorcerers along side Vancian wizards. It worked to make the two classes feel unique and boosted the sorcerer's power a bit more for the cost of a fixed spell list.

Does anyone know the name of this game or sourcebook? Looks interesting:smallsmile:

[Big Fau]

Does anyone know the name of this game or sourcebook? Looks interesting:smallsmile:

Actually that's something you can do in 3.5. Unearthed Arcana introduced the Spell Point variant rules for casters, and it would be trivial to run a regular Wizard along-side a Spell Point Sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

ok so the basic premise of this is that some players do not like the vancian system while others love it. An alternative is using a spell point or mana variant system.


You could also run Psionic classes instead of Sorcerer and Wizard. They're magic-y and run off points.

Also, because psionic augmentation is far more elegant than the lesser/vanilla/greater spell paradigm.

[ericp65]

You could also run Psionic classes instead of Sorcerer and Wizard. They're magic-y and run off points.

Also, because psionic augmentation is far more elegant than the lesser/vanilla/greater spell paradigm.

Instead of or in addition to...or you could use the same mechanics for arcane magic as for psionics. That was the basis for my own arcane magic variant.

[Xar Zarath]

Ok then since this thread favours the Spell Point Wizard, instead of starting an entire new thread, how about this?

Wizard (spell point) VS Psion (any discipline you want, since many have different tastes):smallamused:

[Waddacku]

Regular Wizard rips Psions apart. Spell point Wizard is even stronger.

[Slipperychicken]

Regular Wizard rips Psions apart. Spell point Wizard is even stronger.

Wizard is stronger than everything ever. Spell Point Wizard is even more insane. Psionics are more balanced and elegant (not StP Erudites, they're broken).

[ericp65]

Regular Wizard rips Psions apart. Spell point Wizard is even stronger.

Is that true even with Psionics is Different in effect?

[AuraTwilight]

Especially so, if anything; it allows them to perform Antipsionic Field and similar effects without having to worry about hurting their own abilities because of the lack of Magic/Psionics Transparency.

[ryu]

Psionics is Different just means the wizard has a small dint to pay into psionic countering magic items.

Also nobody cares about anti-magic fields in high op.