How to build a well round Totemist.

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

EDIT: IGNORE Psionics and Incarnate: The decision went to Totemist.

after reading quite a lot of stories and finding the charactersheet to my old Psion again I have some questions about Psionics or Incarnum Users or a Multiclass of both. If possible please mention how it should be played on level 1 and and other levels.

The main point of this thread is that I would like to collect some builds I could try out, as I read quite some tricks Psions can pull and Incarnum looks interesting but isn't that well organized. A more lower Practical Optimization might be needed (aka. nothing too over the top) as I don't want to devalue the other party members. But still be able to do nicely and in corner cases save the parties bacon. I've got 3 general Ideas. If you have something else where you think this might be fun for me to try out go ahead and recommend it.

Totemist:
At first I only thought about going a bit more Barbaric Totemist (maybe adding actual Barbarian levels [but not Totem Rager as from what I read seemed rather lackluster]).
The Idea was that he is the "outcast" of a Barbarian Tribe where the others got their "spiritual" energy into the rage form but for him instead he could sense other outlets for this power. I will probably play him uneducated and more goofy and naive. Maybe later finding the rage and being able to get into Bear Warrior (as a longer standing goal).

Psion:
My last Psion was a Disaster. Elan Psion with Mind Thrust, Skate and Some Animate Object Power. Don't even Know what Discipline he was and what Personality his PsiCrystal had. But the problems were more DM then actual character problems.
But I have read the handbook and now don't know what Psion would be the right one for me, the group and such. And as we are lowish level for some time a good defense should be king. In E6 there is a build that takes the Psionic Feat that grants 2HP for every Psionic Feat to get a load of HP but in "normal" play I doubt that this is an advisable tactic.
If possible I would stay with Elan or another "Immortal Race" that is not in Eberron as we will probably (around 90%) be in Faerun. Or a way to get Immortality as a Goal. And basically being a magician without having a vancian system. Personality wise seeing him as a more aloof kind of guy that wants to enlarge his power to help others.


Incarnate:
To put it bluntly. This class just intrigues me. Bad BaB, not that much Skill points, d6 hd. And apparently to the reaction I got a rather fun, versatile and strong class (if built right).
But similar to the Totemist I don't really know which feats I should take and which soulmelds/shapes I should focus on and to which I should change, depending on situation.

I hope you can help me realize this.
Generation Method: 4d6b3 (with one Joker Dice)
1st Level Full HD, others at least half. No retroactive change in skillpoints due to Int Increases. And I think a bit lower WBL.
Available sources:
PHB, PHB2, MIC, Complete (Psionic, Mage, Arcane, Divine, Champion, Warrior, Adventurer, Scoundrel), MoI, ToB, some Faerun books, Spell Compendium, Races of Destiny, Races of the Wild and maybe the SRD.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, let's see:

With the incarnate, Wisdom is used to determine the saving throws from your meldshaping, but that's almost totally irrelevant, since something like 99% of your soulmelds will be stuff like Blue Swede Shoes or Icicle Helmet of Ghost-Punching or something that provide bonuses to you rather than provoke saving throws from enemies.

So with that said, Incarnate has no real stat requirements (besides Con, which is a requirement for everybody) There also aren't really any feats required to make it good.

Now then, if you want to multiclass, there's the Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), which grants perfect dual progression and some neat class features. To get into Soul Manifester as early as possible, I might suggest going Ardent for the psionic side.

[Big Fau]

Totem Rager isn't what I'd call lackluster. Barbarian 1 gives you free, soulmeld-less pounce, and Cobalt Rage is a solid feat. If you are a melee-oriented Totemist, Totem Rager is a very potent PrC that boosts a solid feat into a good source of extra damage. It isn't going to be as powerful as, say, a Charger build, but you'll be holding your own quite well.

Also, there are several Incarnum Handbooks floating around (one here, about 3 at minmaxboards). They're all really good resources for building a meldshaper.

[Bonzai]

I can weigh in on Incarnum builds. There are two feats that are pretty standard regardless of what meldshaping class you choose. Those are Bonus Essentia and expanded Soulmeld capacity. You almost never have all the essentia you need, so bonus essentia is a must. Expanded Soulmeld capacity is key for maxing out a meld that you are going to be relying on.

If you are a Totemist, you will want to take a good hard look at double chakra bind. This will allow you to have more than one meld bound to your totem chakra.

If you are an incarnate, then you may also want to get Necrocarnum Acolyte. This lets you shape Necrocarnum soulmelds (you can do this without the feat if you are evil aligned), most of them are Ok, but the best one is the circlet which lets you make Necrocarnum zombies.

Other than that, feats should be catered to your specific build requirements, with any spare slots being put into incarnum feats to help boost your essentia pool. The specific incarnum feats again depend on your actual build.

Totemists: I am not as fluent in Totemist builds as I should be. I've done a Thri-keen totemist build that focused on pounce, multi attack attack, and focused on Girallon arms. This gave him 6 claw attacks and a bite on the charge. I've also done a funny druid/totemist/beast master dip. Get a bunch of bird animal companions, fly around and shower your opponents with manticore spines.

Outside of combat, Totemists do have some interesting utility and skill bonuses that can be exploited. They can become top class animal trainers for example.


Incarnates: First off, don't let the low BAB turn you off, as you can pretty much go with ranged or melee touch attacks to deal damage. If you want an actual weapon, you can always get the skillful enhancement which raises you to 3/4 bab.

Incarnates make great skill monkey's, so you can focus on being a jack of all trades, or you can specialize in a few skills to help you round out party weaknesses. You can pretty much handle the rogues skill set without too much of a hassle. If your melds are utility oriented, then most often I see Incarnates focusing on dissolving spittle for offense and keeping their distance.

However, an Incarnate can actually be a fairly decent tank. They have a wide variety of defensive melds, can wear decent armor, high Con for HP, and can be immune to a lot of negative conditions and effects. Offensively they can get a skillful weapon, dealing lightning damage (plus whatever the actual enhancements are), and the weapon having the Force descriptor.

It really comes down to what you want out of them. And that isn't taking in to consideration of all the dip potential.

[Karnith]

I would recommend reading Incarnate by the Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers) if you are interested in playing a character of that class and/or are worried about Incarnates not being able to keep up.

You can pretty much handle the rogues skill set without too much of a hassle.Quick note: Incarnates don't really do sneaking by default, so if you want to cover that aspect of roguing about as an Incarnate, you'll need Shape Soulmeld for Worg Pelt or something.

[Piggy Knowles]

A lot of other people will have a lot of good advice about incarnates. I'd suggest googling "Person_Man incarnate", because Person_Man has gone into great detail on how you can build an effective incarnate on several threads. (If I get a minute later, maybe I can pull up a few of those links myself.)

Other than that advice, I'd like to add...

Don't underestimate the Necro Circlet. It's why I'll probably never play a neutral good incarnate. Seriously, a free necrocarnum zombie at level 2 that scales with your meldshaper level is pretty boss, and puts things like animal companions to shame. Necrocarnum zombies are pretty beefy, with solid defenses and a few surprising little tricks. It's your best low-level ability, and it stays good throughout your career.

At higher levels, don't ignore things like Arcane Focus. They're not just for soulcasters - incarnates tend to be little UMD machines, so they're another nice source of bonus damage with some additional debuff potential. Similarly, Charming Veil is insane - you can easily use it alongside a dorje for a whopping +9 bonus to charm and compulsion powers.

You can make a pretty solid melee or ranged incarnate, but you're not going to be this crazy machine as far as damage is concerned. Incarnates excel in defense and versatility. (Other than the full casters, incarnates give out more potential resistances and immunities than any other class I've found.)

Don't totally ignore your Wisdom mod unless you're absolutely sure that's what you want to do. There are a lot of pretty cool save-or-lose/suck effects that incarnates get. A melee machine will still want a good Wisdom for his Incarnate Weapon's daze effect, while a UMD-focused incarnate might want it for Arcane Focus' rider.

[Krazzman]

Soooo I have had some time and read through a few threads... but somehow I get the impression that CN is "crap" for an Incarnate and True Lawful as well as True Evil is king.

I still don't really know what Soulmelds to exactly combine. I assume the Vitality Belt the misschance robes or similar. And that helm that grants the attacks the force descriptor...

Totemist seems to either Elan for Abberation abuse, the guys(Skarn?) with the Spines or something else with natural weapons built in...
I thought about going Human with him... but I tend to play humans a bit too much... and I doubt we have the books for the Aberration abuse... and Thri Keen seem to be to outlandish.

[Waker]

If you want to play a "Human", you might consider the Azurin. They still get their extra feat but gain bonus essentia rather than skill points.
If you want to play an Immortal character, you might look at the Wedded To History feat from Dragon #354.
Totem Rager is a fine class. It might not be insanely powerful when compared to an ubercharger, but it gives you the option to be a combat brute while still being able to contribute to other situations. Not many pure barbarians can fly or go ethereal.
Soul Manifester is a good class to mix Psionics and Incarnum. I prefer using Psionics for the active effects like attack and utility powers, while using Incarnum for passive defensive abilities. Good defensive melds are stuff like Pauldrons of Health or Impulse Boots. Incarnate is probably the better choice for this route, though Totemist can provide extra attacks while using Psionics for utility.

[Big Fau]

Soooo I have had some time and read through a few threads... but somehow I get the impression that CN is "crap" for an Incarnate and True Lawful as well as True Evil is king.

CN Incarnates are kinda bad, but they are very capable archers with the right tools (specifically a Weapon of Legacy to boost their BAB to Medium via the Skillful enhancement from CW). NE is OK if you focus on tripping and other tactics, while LN is very good at being a "tank". NG would be the best of the four, but only because you'd be abusing UMD and pretending to be an Artificer.


I still don't really know what Soulmelds to exactly combine. I assume the Vitality Belt the misschance robes or similar. And that helm that grants the attacks the force descriptor...

If you are going LN or NE the Vitality Belt is a good choice, as is the Fellmist Robes (the drawback doesn't really show up unless the DM remembers it). But what soulmelds you shape really depends on what you want to focus on and what alignment you are. LN and NE Incarnates really like their Incarnate Weapon soulmeld at the lower levels (and sometimes higher ones, but it tapers off quickly), but CN and NG Incarnates are better off with Dissolving Spittle or something else.


Totemist seems to either Elan for Abberation abuse, the guys(Skarn?) with the Spines or something else with natural weapons built in...
I thought about going Human with him... but I tend to play humans a bit too much... and I doubt we have the books for the Aberration abuse... and Thri Keen seem to be to outlandish.

The "abuse" is using the Rapid Strike feat to get extra attacks as a Totemist, and requires either Savage Species or the Draconomicon to pull off (not that it is a good idea, as the feat's prerequisites are annoying). Skarn and Warforged make excellent Totemists, and Thri-Kreen has a massive LA that really hurts your meldshaping.

If you are starting at any level higher than 1st you don't really need a racial natural weapon.

[Krazzman]

From the trend I experienced with this group level 1 is likely except if it is a backup character.

As such the current range of levels is 1 to around 5 and then going on with XP.

Also about material I can use: Dragonmagazines, Draconomicon and Savage species as well as Eberron stuff is out. Although I will ask about Shifter for the Totemist.
Even the Psions from the SRD are "pushing" it as I didn't ask so far. But Comp Psi is definitly allowed.

Forgot Dungeonscape in the opening post.

[Big Fau]

I really wish they had thought about the Shifter when designing the Totemist. It would have been a perfect fit...

It's still a good combination outside of the limited number of shifts/day. If you can find a way to get more without spending feats it is a solid option, otherwise stick with Skarn or Warforged (since you are starting at 1st level the natural attack is actually important).

[Piggy Knowles]

Any race with the dragonblood subtype can get Totemist natural attacks at first level via the Draconic soulmelds. Silverbrow Human always works, but dragonborn mongrelfolk is also pretty fun.

[Bonzai]

Well, at lvl 1, you are limited to just two melds. As an incarnate, one choice is fairly clear. That is dissolving spittle. It and lightning gauntlets have the best damage capacity, and both are touch attacks, but dissolving spittle has the added benefit of being a ranged attack. Then you have one meld left for either utility or defense depending on what you want to prioritize. At third level Necrocarnum Circlet is the most bang for your buck. Bind it to your crown chakra and enjoy your new zombie pets.

Totemists selection is more build dependent, so you need a general idea of what you are trying to accomplish.

[Talionis]

This is official Wizards online content for a prestige class melding the two: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a

Not sure if you'd seen it yet or not.

[Psyren]

This is official Wizards online content for a prestige class melding the two: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a

Not sure if you'd seen it yet or not.

There are several feats and soulmelds that merge the two very well also. I personally like to combine Incarnate with Wilder but just about any of them are good.

[Piggy Knowles]

Charming Veil in particular is pretty impressive, potentially giving as much as a +9 bonus to your DCs on charm/compulsion powers. (For a multiclass incarnate/soul manifester it'll probably "only" be +7 or +8, but still, it's quite nice.)

[Krazzman]

OK it is finally decided.

It will be a Totemist. Level 1. Possibly no shifter. Any other ECL +0 Race is "ok" with DM calls. Has to be good and it will be rolled stats probably.

Should play well with others as in not being the "Lone Wolf" sort of thing.

Thought about going pure Totemist. Probably Azurin as Shifter might be out (and shifter does have the -2 stat adjustment). So no ECS but maybe MM3 (Warforged, going to ask for that)

Any ideas on what Melds I should use at first level? Or what feats I should take (with Azurin or Warforged).

[Waker]

If you go Azurin, you might consider grabbing the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity to raise the essentia cap to 2 for your meld. Otherwise I would say Multiattack if you choose a race with a natural attack. You will eventually want both feats anyways. Improved Initiative is a decent idea if you plan on being the party scout.

[Big Fau]

@OP: Shifter is in MM3, same as Warforged. I think the only LA0 race from the ECS that didn't get printed in MM3 was the Kalashtar. I'd recommend against Azurin for a 1st level Totemist. You'd either have to use a manufactured weapon or get the Dragonblood subtype to shape the Dragonic Soulmelds from Dragon Magic (and those become mediocre compared to your Totem binds).

Warforged would probably be the best option for you.

[Krazzman]

On the one hand I'd really like to play a Shifter or a Warforged... on the other hand I'd like to play something not that exotic (as the shifter has hits on cha and int... and I hate losing int). And Warforged as cool as they may be are probably hard to properly explain.

Hence Azurin "should" be better.

Overarching the Char should only be a Facesmasher. That's why I would love to go with a Razorclaw Shifter...

[ZamielVanWeber]

I recommend Azurin, personally. Take Expanded Soulmeld Capacity on your preferred damage dealing bind (any of the claw binds do okay; I think Kruthik claws is that one that adds 1d4 acid per essentia invested, crazy early on). Take extra Essentia because if Incarnate needs more, Totemist DEFINITELY needs more.

[Krazzman]

Ok: What feat should I take with a Warforged. What Melds should I shape?
What feat should I take with a Razorclaw Shifter. What Melds should I shape?
Same for Azurin?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Azurin Totemist:
Meld:
Girallon Arms (1 primary claw, 3 secondary, d4 each +1 atk/dam per essentia)) is always a classic.
Kruthik Claws boost Hide and Move Silently and are great for stealth kills (2 primary claws, 1d6 each, +1d4 acid per essentia)
Sphinx Claws are my personal favorite boosting Strengh check and strength based skill checks (2 primary claws, 1d8 each, +1 atk/damn per essentia)

I would recommend Sphinx Claws, with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity for them and extra essentia. At level 2 you would have 4+Str to hit on 2 attacks that do 1d8+3+Str damage.

Edit: The feat is called BONUS essentia, not extra. My bad.

[Krazzman]

Azurin Totemist:
Meld:
Girallon Arms (1 primary claw, 3 secondary, d4 each +1 atk/dam per essentia)) is always a classic.
Kruthik Claws boost Hide and Move Silently and are great for stealth kills (2 primary claws, 1d6 each, +1d4 acid per essentia)
Sphinx Claws are my personal favorite boosting Strengh check and strength based skill checks (2 primary claws, 1d8 each, +1 atk/damn per essentia)

I would recommend Sphinx Claws, with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity for them and extra essentia. At level 2 you would have 4+Str to hit on 2 attacks that do 1d8+3+Str damage.

But I would still need to buy a Weapon for first level, right?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yes. I would recommend the extremely free quarter staff. Also, you can wield weapons/shields and simply refuse to use the bound claws at any time (depending on the claws; this is true for sphinx).

[Person_Man]

OK it is finally decided.

It will be a Totemist. Level 1. Possibly no shifter. Any other ECL +0 Race is "ok" with DM calls. Has to be good and it will be rolled stats probably.

Should play well with others as in not being the "Lone Wolf" sort of thing.

Thought about going pure Totemist. Probably Azurin as Shifter might be out (and shifter does have the -2 stat adjustment). So no ECS but maybe MM3 (Warforged, going to ask for that)

Any ideas on what Melds I should use at first level? Or what feats I should take (with Azurin or Warforged).

1st level Totemist advice:

Feats: Adamantine Body (heavy armor, DR 2/-), Jaws of Death (bite), Multiattack (reduces attack penalty), Improved Unarmed Strike (gives you an extra attack, since you'll be using claws most of the time, and thus won't want to hold a weapon), Aberration Blood/Inhuman Reach or Willing Deformity/Deformity Tall (+5 reach), Touch of Golden (deals Dex damage on natural attack or unarmed strike), and Fearless Destiny (don't die once per day when reduced to -10 or lower hit points).

Soulmeld Suggestions:

Chaos Roc's Span: 2 wing buffet attacks. (Dragon Magazine 350 pg87).
Claws of the Wyrm: 2 claws. (Dragon Magic).
Dragon Tail: Tail attack. (Dragon Magic).
Wormtail Belt: Natural Armor bonus.
Rageclaws or Blood Talons: Diehard


Note that anything that requires a Totem Chakra bind, like Girillion Arms, doesn't kick in until level 2.

[Krazzman]

1st level Totemist advice:

Feats: Adamantine Body (heavy armor, DR 2/-), Jaws of Death (bite), Multiattack (reduces attack penalty), Improved Unarmed Strike (gives you an extra attack, since you'll be using claws most of the time, and thus won't want to hold a weapon), Aberration Blood/Inhuman Reach or Willing Deformity/Deformity Tall (+5 reach), Touch of Golden (deals Dex damage on natural attack or unarmed strike), and Fearless Destiny (don't die once per day when reduced to -10 or lower hit points).

Soulmeld Suggestions:

Chaos Roc's Span: 2 wing buffet attacks. (Dragon Magazine 350 pg87).
Claws of the Wyrm: 2 claws. (Dragon Magic).
Dragon Tail: Tail attack. (Dragon Magic).
Wormtail Belt: Natural Armor bonus.
Rageclaws or Blood Talons: Diehard


Note that anything that requires a Totem Chakra bind, like Girillion Arms, doesn't kick in until level 2.

Azurin with Improved Unarmed Strike and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Wormtailbelt)
Shaping Wormtail for +4 NA (Investing the 2 Essentia the Char has) on first level. And Shaping Winter Mask (for using the melee touch attack together with the Unarmed Strike) Maybe using one Essentia in it. Does this seem reasonable?
At least I remember reading somewhere that you can use a Touch attack as part of an unarmed strike, or do I misremember something here (Expanded Soulmeld Capacity Winter Mask for +2d4 Cold damage seems rather great at level 1.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sounds nifty. I don't remember the tough thing being anything but a house rule, but fatigue + club is still good enough.

[Krazzman]

Reached level 2 in one evening.

We killed a Owlbear on level 1 that gave us the last few points needed. The DM had a slight bit of fear of TPKing us. But then we killed it.

Party Comp now is:
Dwarf Fighter (using only the PHB and PGtF)
Moon Elf Warmage
Human Cleric of Kossuth with Renewal and Fire Domain (as well as Domain Spontaenity and Spellcasting Prodigy)
And the Azuring Totemist (me).

But I've got another Question:
When I bind Sphinx Claws I get up to 2 attacks for +7/+7 (+3 Str, +3 Essentia + 1 Bab), or do I get a penality for attacking more then once.
Shaping Sphinx Claws gives me bonus on Strength Checks, do I still get that while binding it to my totem or do I lose it?

[ZamielVanWeber]

2 at +7. Claws get funny as natural weapons go, but because they are a "single" weapon, you are fine. When you bind anything to a chakra you get the chakra benefits on top what you get for shaping the meld.

[Krazzman]

For 3rd Level I should Take Multiattack then on 6th I should go for Bonus Essentia, right?

On another note:
Our Cleric wanted to go "blasting".
3rd Level feat will be Fiery Burst then Searing Spell and then Divine Metamagic Searing Spell.
What are good feats she could check out? (Or should she take other feats?)