[4e] New to Dnd and had a couple questions

[scoofie]

so me and a couple friend are just now starting to play dnd at my suggestion, and im going to be dm. so its been king of up to me to figure everything out and teach them, theyre not the biggest fans of reading.

one that really confuses me is if your supposed to use a grid outside of battles. the reason im wondering this is because i was reading about one of the rituals that lets you summon an eye that keeps watch, but it mentions that it has to stay within a certain number of squares of the summoner. does that mean that we should be using a grid outside of battle, or does it say that just to let you know that it the eye just needs to be relatively close to the summoner. because using a grid outside of battle seems like a lot of trouble.

another thing is im wondering about how big it is that battles fields should be. i set up a battle like in the dungeon delve book, and everyone agreed it felt a little small. im not sure if it just happened to be a small map. or if maybe its just because my players play a lot of video games, and one of them in particularly plays a lot of strategic games like tower defense game. i mean im thinking of just making the maps bigger since thats what they want, but im just wondering if thats how it supposed to be. especially since we also all agree that the range on bows and such seem so op.

my last questions has to do with a program i found, 4eturntracker. i totally love it, it helps me soooo much in running the battles. my only question is if anyone knows if it can be run on a tablet? any kind of tablet, although id be super happy if it can run on an android. im thinking about getting a tablet for playing, because right now im using a laptop but i have to constantly put the screen down to see the battle grid and its annoying as hell. and it just kind sucks feeling like im behind a giant wall from everyone else. a tablet would sooooo fix that. but only if i can run 4eturntracker. would love to know if it works before i save up to get one.

thanks. sorry if the first two questions seem kinda dumb. just super new to this game and really wanna play it right.

[dariathalon]

Question 1> No, you don't need to use grids outside of battle. Use them when they make it easier for you to picture what's going on. Normally that is only in battle; however, there are some other times where it might be appropriate. In regards to the ritual you mentioned, the number of squares is just to give you a rough idea of distances involved in the spell.

Question 2> Battlefields should be varied. Sometimes a battle should take place in large open meadows where people can basically go anywhere. Other times it can take place in tiny rooms (or even cramped twisting hallways). One of the best things about 4e's tactical combat system is the ability to throw in lots of different stages for the battles to take place in.

Question 3> I have no idea.

[Arkhosia]

I'm not aware if the turntracker can be used on a tablet, but I think that as long as you don't have to download it to a desktop and as long as it doesn't operate on a system incompatible with the tablet (adobe flash for an iPad, for example), you should be fine

[Ashdate]

one that really confuses me is if your supposed to use a grid outside of battles.

You could use a grid outside of the battle, but I wouldn't. The rituals you're reading mostly talk about squares in case it would come up; I would otherwise use the standard 1 square = 5 ft metric for determining distance when required.


another thing is im wondering about how big it is that battles fields should be.

Battlefields should be as big as they need to be. If you're using a standard battle map, you'll be naturally constrained anyway. In general, you wouldn't want combat to start with sides so far apart that they would need to spend a few turns moving anyway. Ranges on things like bows and Magic Missile are generally a lot bigger than they need to be, but that's okay.

In general, you want to present a variety of battlefields for your players to fight on. Sometimes, the situation demands a large arena, where high mobility characters will shine (and more tanky and/or controlling characters may have a more difficult time). Sometimes, the situation demands cramped corridors, where controlling effects (and defenders) will shine, while classes that require proper positioning (i.e. backstabbing rogues) might have more difficulty.

You'll get better at it as you play, but a few suggestions:

1) Never give your players a straight, unencumbered path to your enemy. Throw some difficult terrain, a table, a pit, whatever. Better they need to make a Jump check to reach the enemy, than to simply charge on through.

2) Liberally apply difficult/hindering terrain where it makes sense... then add some more. And don't keep it to the sides where characters are unlikely to use it. Proper use will spice combats up tremendously, and reward players who utilize it to their advantage.

3) Do you best to ensure that there is not a single "choke point" at which a defender (like a Fighter or Warden) can park themselves, to hold off a giant horde of enemies (or allow a Controller to set up Wall of Fire or the like). Add a secondary way "in", even if it takes longer to use.

[Dimers]

1) Never give your players a straight, unencumbered path to your enemy. Throw some difficult terrain, a table, a pit, whatever. Better they need to make a Jump check to reach the enemy, than to simply charge on through.

2) Liberally apply difficult/hindering terrain where it makes sense... then add some more. And don't keep it to the sides where characters are unlikely to use it. Proper use will spice combats up tremendously, and reward players who utilize it to their advantage.

3) Do your best to ensure that there is not a single "choke point" at which a defender (like a Fighter or Warden) can park themselves, to hold off a giant horde of enemies (or allow a Controller to set up Wall of Fire or the like). Add a secondary way "in", even if it takes longer to use.

I'd like to add a few things to that. For Ashdate's first point -- that's all for the players' benefit. It's good for verisimilitude, and a lot of players like to use the skills they've selected. For point 2 -- also add things that provide cover or concealment. Obstacles do this anyway, but problems with the floor do not. And who doesn't like an occasional fight in mist or smoke, or a place where the shadows might hold hidden dangers?

A DM's choice of battleground layout is the best chance for the game system to shine. You really see the difference between one class and another -- or between two races, or between two preferences for power selection! -- in different battle conditions.

[NecroRebel]

You don't need to use a grid outside battle, but you should still be aware of distances to things. An early warning system, like the watchful eye you mentioned, will still be present should the party be attacked in the night, and it's necessary to know how far out they can detect approaching enemies as that will inform you as to where the enemies' initial positions will be once battle is joined.



I've found battlefields that are less than 5 tiles on their smallest dimension to be very cramped at level 1, while battlefields larger than 20 tiles in their largest dimension are too big at level 1. A field too small simply doesn't allow anyone to actually avoid anything, virtually guaranteeing friendly fire or severe restrictions on AoE-focused PCs like controllers, whereas a field too big doesn't allow everything to actually engage properly during the first round.

Naturally, if one side is ambushed it's fine if their meleers can't engage in the first round, but if they can't make melee attacks by the second round you're unfairly punishing them for their combat style. Higher-level characters and monsters both have more mobility options available, so that allows for larger maps.

Higher levels need a somewhat bigger minimum size and a much bigger maximum size. I'd suggest increasing the lower bound by 1 per 4 levels (so 5 tiles at L1, 6 at L4, 7 at L8, and so on), and increasing the upper bound by 3 per 2 levels.

Battles usually shouldn't start with everyone at the very edges of the map, either. Having everyone halfway or 2/3 of the way in towards the map center gives them all room to back off if they need to, while letting slower creatures or melee attackers engage quickly.

[Akodo Makama]

In 4e, a square is just a measure of distance or area. All distances are in squares. It doesn't necessarily mean a grid is needed. This lets WOTC print one book the whole world can understand. A square is 5 feet to a side in the US, and 2 meters in the civilized world.

The Dungeon Delve book is full of small, cramped encounters. It's designed for a different style of play: the delve. This was developed as a way to have a short series of encounters for play at conventions with a group of players that likely had never even met and had not coordinated character creation. Only short rests were allowed, so the entire 'delve' was completed in one sitting. They were designed to be quite challenging to finish under those constraints. You were expected to take part in multiple delves with changing groups of players over the course of the convention, with a 'leader board' showing how many delves you managed to survive (there are many variations on this style of play, the above is the type I have the most experience with).

As such, Dungeon Delve is not a good guide for making reasonable encounters. It does, however, have many ideas that are useful for memorable encounters, such as: varied terrain, thematic groups of enemies, time constraints, traps as part of combat, etc.

[scoofie]

wow i really wasted expecting so many responses. thanks a bunch. a lot of that information really helped me.

yea so far weve tried a couple practice battles to get everyone used to how it works. but the maps were just squares without any obstacles. im really excited to throw some stuff onto the maps now and make them more interesting.

oh and that actually brings up a question. if i made one part of the map higher up or lower than another part (like a pit or hill). then would someone in a pit be able to hit someone thats technically next to them but outside the pit, and vice verse? and if they can is the attack effected in some way?

i especially like the idea of increasing the map sizes by levels, thatll help give me a general idea of how big they should be as we go along.

i think ill definitely come to this forum more. i had no idea id be able to get help like this.

[Ashdate]

oh and that actually brings up a question. if i made one part of the map higher up or lower than another part (like a pit or hill). then would someone in a pit be able to hit someone thats technically next to them but outside the pit, and vice verse? and if they can is the attack effected in some way?

i especially like the idea of increasing the map sizes by levels, thatll help give me a general idea of how big they should be as we go along.

i think ill definitely come to this forum more. i had no idea id be able to get help like this.

I think it really depends on the situation; if someone is on a higher level due to stairs or a hill, then it attacking the other person should be relatively easy. If a person is instead in a pit-trap, it might be appropriate to assign a cover penalty (-2) to indicate that one (or both) parties don't have a clean swing. Go with what feels right.

That said, having multiple levels on a map can be awesome, especially if players (and monsters) start using forced movement to push the other off of them :D

[NecroRebel]

oh and that actually brings up a question. if i made one part of the map higher up or lower than another part (like a pit or hill). then would someone in a pit be able to hit someone thats technically next to them but outside the pit, and vice verse? and if they can is the attack effected in some way?

Technically, squares are actually cubes, so a creature 5 feet upwards of another is adjacent to the other just as they would be if they were 5 feet to the left.

Fighting at the edge of a pit might or might not grant cover to one or both parties depending on how sharp-edged the pit is. A slope generally wouldn't, but if one person were on a 5-foot-tall wall and the other was at the bottom of the wall, the one on top would have a clear shot while having cover against the one on the bottom. See the rules on determining cover (PHB1 p.280 or Rules Compendium p.219).

[Arkhosia]

wow i really wasted expecting so many responses. thanks a bunch. a lot of that information really helped me.

yea so far weve tried a couple practice battles to get everyone used to how it works. but the maps were just squares without any obstacles. im really excited to throw some stuff onto the maps now and make them more interesting.

oh and that actually brings up a question. if i made one part of the map higher up or lower than another part (like a pit or hill). then would someone in a pit be able to hit someone thats technically next to them but outside the pit, and vice verse? and if they can is the attack effected in some way?

i especially like the idea of increasing the map sizes by levels, thatll help give me a general idea of how big they should be as we go along.

i think ill definitely come to this forum more. i had no idea id be able to get help like this.

People here are so helpful that if you ask a question, your house will be flooded with advice pouring from the screen in about 5-10 minutes.

[neonchameleon]

wow i really wasted expecting so many responses. thanks a bunch. a lot of that information really helped me.

yea so far weve tried a couple practice battles to get everyone used to how it works. but the maps were just squares without any obstacles. im really excited to throw some stuff onto the maps now and make them more interesting.

Seriously it helps a lot. Anything that gives people a good reason to move around makes the whole thing much more interesting. Or a reason to move other people around (a simple campfire will work - the wizard then uses something involving forced movement to push the bad guys into the camp fire, and the fighter holds them there).


oh and that actually brings up a question. if i made one part of the map higher up or lower than another part (like a pit or hill). then would someone in a pit be able to hit someone thats technically next to them but outside the pit, and vice verse? and if they can is the attack effected in some way?

Picture the pit or the hill with someone at the top and someone at the bottom. What can they actually see? It's probably possible - but depending how sheer the sides are, there'll either be no cover, cover (-2 to attacks as the terrain gets in the way), or total cover (-5 to attacks because they can barely see the target and need to do things like jump or lean back). Or with a 15 foot pit you can't reach so the attack isn't possible.