Endurance teirs

[Lightlawbliss]

Is there a list/table/whatever sorting classes into groups based on how well they can endure long term combat? If not, maby the playground could get together and make one.

[Psyren]

What do you mean by "long-term combat?" Lots of encounters per day? Fewer encounters that last longer (5+ rounds?) Consecutive days of encounters that don't allow time for resting/regaining resources? Some combination of the above?

[Lightlawbliss]

I consider "long term combat" to be anything where you don't have time to replenish limited use resources or do between fight healing and this goes on for a while.

[RFLS]

Level one? Warblade. Level twenty? Wizard.

[Lightlawbliss]

Level one? Warblade. Level twenty? Wizard.

A while being a day or more. And it would probably be best to take an average over all a classes levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say:

Tier 1: Crusader comes out on top, hands down-- the tankiest tank in all the land, with self-healing abilities.

ToB and incarnum classes. No daily limits on their stuff, and they can get decent defensive and endurance boosting abilities.

Tier 2: Warlocks and Binders. Again, no daily limits, and a number of supernatural tricks that might make it harder to take damage (flight, invisibility, etc) and/or UMd.

Tier 3: Casters.

Tier 4: Mundanes. Yes, they don't run out of full attacks, but they do run out of health, and they don't really have ways of avoiding attacks or healing.

[RFLS]

Full casters still come out on top, starting at about level twelve, because of hour/level buffs, metamagic reserve feats, and extend + persist spell shenanigans.

[Humble Master]

If it is on average, Warblade is probably best. You never run out of maneuvers.

Edit:

Full casters still come out on top, starting at about level twelve, because of hour/level buffs, metamagic reserve feats, and extend + persist spell shenanigans. You're still going to run out of spells and Dispel Magic/Disjunction will get rid of your buffs.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm not asking a single class that is best, or a group that is best, I'm asking for tiers or rating different groups against each other (preferably with reasons).

tx grod for giving tiers and some reasons to back them up

Edit:

...
You're still going to run out of spells and Dispel Magic/Disjunction will get rid of your buffs. I would defiantly have to agree with this part of your post. I would also add that the other classes can get this same kind of buffing up (but harder to get rid of) via magic items.

[Amphetryon]

If it is on average, Warblade is probably best. You never run out of maneuvers.

Edit:
You're still going to run out of spells and Dispel Magic/Disjunction will get rid of your buffs.

Running out of spells and being vulnerable to Dispel/Disjunction is rather dependent on play-style (even within the confines of the OP), Feat choices, and spell selection

[RFLS]

Running out of spells and being vulnerable to Dispel/Disjunction is rather dependent on play-style (even within the confines of the OP), Feat choices, and spell selection

To be fair, everything is dependent on that, so it's a little moot, especially in a tier discussion.

However...if you're playing at a level where Disjunction is being used, then it should be pointed out that the caster set to be Disjunctioned is probably playing with Craft Contingent Spell, has some counter-Disjunctions prepped, or has some other way of dealing with or avoiding it. Meanwhile, mundanes and half-casters are still derping around getting their faces smashed by the Shapechanged, heavily Contingencied, other-continuous-buffs wizard. Or, probably worse in this case, a fully prepped Artificer.


I would defiantly have to agree with this part of your post.

I guess I'm going to have to defiantly disagree. *stands ground*

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The problem with rating classes in tiers based on endurance is that there is often a relationship between endurance and power. It's relatively easy to put out mediocre power all day long. Countering a buffed caster with dispell/disjunction raises the question of "how powerful did the party need to be to win this"? A threat that can strip the buffs of a caster going for endurance may have killed a less powerful high endurance character. If in the second encounter you get killed, your "endurance" wasn't that high.

Grod's assessment is about right, just remember that there are caster builds and strategies for all tiers. Buffed caster melee is vulnerable to buff stripping, but is far more powerful than the other tiers ones, a caster that starts every fight with a BC spell a level or two down from max is functioning at tier 2.5, while a noob caster that blows his load on direct damage may be below mundanes.

[Chronos]

Warblades are good in this situation, but crusaders are better. Neither one runs out of maneuvers, but the crusader doesn't run out of HP, either.

Also worthy of mention are the firebreathers, Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman.

[Flickerdart]

So for 24 hours, you don't have an opportunity to replenish resources. Why? Is it because you have an encounter every second of that day, and new waves crop up once you beat the old ones? How strong are these enemies? Because a caster with a reserve feat (let's say a wizard with Fiery Burst, as an example) can keep blowing them up all day starting at level 1 (with Precocious Apprentice).

[eggynack]

Druids are probably right at the top of the list.The animal companion and wild shape let them contribute even when they run out of spells, and they last all day. You get all of the low quality endurance of a fighter, stapled onto the high quality and low endurance nature of a wizard. Wizards have quite a bit more endurance than they're often given credit for, but druids obviously have even more.

[Lightlawbliss]

So for 24 hours, you don't have an opportunity to replenish resources. Why? Is it because you have an encounter every second of that day, and new waves crop up once you beat the old ones? How strong are these enemies? Because a caster with a reserve feat (let's say a wizard with Fiery Burst, as an example) can keep blowing them up all day starting at level 1 (with Precocious Apprentice).
two possible reasons:
Massive battle where they don't stop just because the moon is coming up or their troops are tired

dungeon crawl where if you stop you will be swarmed to death, and going forward still has you fighting a lot.

[Amphetryon]

two possible reasons:
Massive battle where they don't stop just because the moon is coming up or their troops are tired

dungeon crawl where if you stop you will be swarmed to death, and going forward still has you fighting a lot.In both of these scenarios, Rope Trick/Marvelous Mansion/etc still work just fine to get you out of combat long enough to recover, unless there are additional parameters you're not divulging.

[Karnith]

In both of these scenarios, Rope Trick/Marvelous Mansion/etc still work just fine to get you out of combat long enough to recover, unless there are additional parameters you're not divulging.
Or teleporting somewhere safe and then teleporting back later.

[Lightlawbliss]

In both of these scenarios, Rope Trick/Marvelous Mansion/etc still work just fine to get you out of combat long enough to recover, unless there are additional parameters you're not divulging.

I was not saying there are not ways around the ones I'm giving, I was just throwing out the first two possible reasons that come to mind.

[137beth]

Or teleporting somewhere safe and then teleporting back later.

Or teleporting to a plane with faster than normal time (a private demiplane if possible) and teleporting back the same round:smalltongue:

[Kane0]

I'd have to agree with Grod.

Tiers 1 and 2 would be ToB, Invocation-using classes, Binders and Incarnum-using classes. Any class whos key class features cannot be truly expended and give them access to enhanced recovery and/or defenses.
Side note: Truenamers are the exception and go to a lower tier because it gets harder to use Truenaming the more you do it.

Tiers 3 and 4 would be various casters, with casters that are able to spontaneously convert spells or have more spells in general being higher. For example the Cleric and Druid end up higher than say the Bard.
Side note: Mundanes (or more specifically martials) with limited ability to recover or endure like the Paladin or monk would probably edge into tier 4 over other mundanes since they have the benefits of having some sort of self healing and better defenses for longer fights.

Tier 5 would be mundanes like the fighter and barbarian. With no means of getting back their only critical resource (HP) and few means to shore up their defenses for a protracted battle they fall into the lower tiers.

Edit: This is of course excluding magic items and Cheese, I'm just judging on class abilities. Adding these in would muddy things up too much for my liking, plus you would have to apply it equally to all classes to get correct consistency.

[Flickerdart]

two possible reasons:
Massive battle where they don't stop just because the moon is coming up or their troops are tired

dungeon crawl where if you stop you will be swarmed to death, and going forward still has you fighting a lot.
Battles aren't just "let's you guys and us guys stand next to one another and sword the other guy until one side's all dead". There are localized skirmishes across a battlefield that can die down or flare up, and generals rotate tired troops for fresh reserves to keep the line steady and see to the wounded.

Dungeon crawls are not going to take 24 hours of straight fighting. What kind of a dungeon has that many creatures in it? Given that there's usually little in the way of open spaces and available food supplies, a dungeon's population density would be much smaller than that of a forest. With territorial predators being basically the only threats dungeons could manage, it would be days if not weeks before one such creature or pack of creatures would intrude upon the area of another.

If the dungeon has intelligent denizens, they would immediately sound the alarm and then attack you all at once, in which case endurance is also irrelevant because there's only the one fight in which you either kill or rout them all, or die.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Battles aren't just "let's you guys and us guys stand next to one another and sword the other guy until one side's all dead". There are localized skirmishes across a battlefield that can die down or flare up, and generals rotate tired troops for fresh reserves to keep the line steady and see to the wounded.

Dungeon crawls are not going to take 24 hours of straight fighting. What kind of a dungeon has that many creatures in it? Given that there's usually little in the way of open spaces and available food supplies, a dungeon's population density would be much smaller than that of a forest. With territorial predators being basically the only threats dungeons could manage, it would be days if not weeks before one such creature or pack of creatures would intrude upon the area of another.

If the dungeon has intelligent denizens, they would immediately sound the alarm and then attack you all at once, in which case endurance is also irrelevant because there's only the one fight in which you either kill or rout them all, or die.
Dude... the question of "what class can go for longest without needing to rest" is a perfectly reasonable one to consider. Arguing for ways to ignore the issue is, well, ignoring the issue. It's like going into a thread asking "how do I optimize a barbarian?" and saying "nah, dude, if you really want power make a batman wizard."

[The Trickster]

Tier 1: ToB classes.

Tier 2: Warlocks and Binders.

Tier 3: Mundanes

Tier *: Casters.

Casters are hard to rank because it greatly depends on their level. At lower levels, they are much lower due to limited spell usage. At high levels, this becomes much less of an issue, although I am not sure if they would jump to T1.

It should be noted, however, that casters are very good at avoiding long battles (as a few people have pointed out already). This means that while they may rank low in this tier system, they are still useful in a long battle situation, because they can often shorten a fight's duration.

Also note that druids could very well be T1, because while they may run out of spells, they can still be in wild shape form for hours, and they still have a pretty powerful animal companion that can fight.

Just my two cents.:smallbiggrin:

[Karnith]

At high levels, this becomes much less of an issue, although I am not sure if they would jump to T1.Past a certain op-level, casters are certainly capable of going all day, if that is what they choose to do. Psionic characters can just straight-up get as many power points as they want, and regular casters have (admittedly less impressive) ways to replenish their spell slots, from Lucubration cheese to just hanging out on fast-time planes to restore their spells, and also have ways to simply get effects that will last all day long, like Simulacra/Ice Assassins, reserve feats, servants gained through Planar Binding, or even just persisted buffs.

What kind of a dungeon has that many creatures in it?
"Well guys, it looks like we're clearing the Underdark today."
"So you mean we're going to take out an illithid enclave or something?"
"No, we're going to clear the entire thing."

[Kane0]

"Well guys, it looks like we're clearing the Underdark today."
"So you mean we're going to clear out an illithid enclave or something?"
"No, we're going to clear the entire thing."

I am now extremely interested in seeing a party of 5 built to take on the entire Underdark in one sitting.

[Randomguy]

Worth noting is that the traditional tier system accounts for equal levels of optimization, but casters in this tier system would vary wildly, depending on how well they were optimized and on level, too.

A conjurer with abrupt jaunt, Precocious Apprentice and Fiery Burst would do well from low levels, especially if they were dragonblooded and picked up the Draconic Aura (vigor) feat later on. But without both of those things arcane casters wouldn't do well until higher levels.

Druids and DMM persist clerics would be somewhere between Tier 1 and low Tier 2 at higher levels, though, especially if they took reserve feats.

Also, the lower tier casters like Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage would probably be below the mundanes in this case: They don't really have the buffs to survive longterm, even at high levels. A Warmage with reserve feats might make make a somewhat mediocre Warlock wannabe, though, and a Dread Necro with Tomb Tainted Soul and maybe some reserve feats might be decent, too, but they would only be as good as most mundanes at best.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am now extremely interested in seeing a party of 5 built to take on the entire Underdark in one sitting.

Me too. I'm going to make a thread for it.

I think everybody's pretty settled on how classes rank for the endurance thing, but I'd like to add the Totemist as a Tier 1 or Tier 2.

Their soulmelds don't really go away, and they do have some limited self healing. But they don't have the raw durability of the Crusader.

[Flickerdart]

"Well guys, it looks like we're clearing the Underdark today."
"So you mean we're going to take out an illithid enclave or something?"
"No, we're going to clear the entire thing."
The Underdark is not a dungeon by any definition of the word. Even so, what I said about population density still applies, perhaps even more so, since there's more room.

Dude... the question of "what class can go for longest without needing to rest" is a perfectly reasonable one to consider. Arguing for ways to ignore the issue is, well, ignoring the issue. It's like going into a thread asking "how do I optimize a barbarian?" and saying "nah, dude, if you really want power make a batman wizard."
I'm not ignoring anything. I am merely trying to determine what kind of a situation can create the circumstances that OP is looking for to better determine how well resources can be paced. Hence the mention of reserve feats. Your knee-jerk hostility is not appreciated.

[Barsoom]

I believe a Warforged Crusader can keep slaughtering weak opponents at such a rate that the hp gain from leveling up actually outpaces hp loss from damage....

Also, casters with a good Reserve Feat or two could keep going for quite a while.

[Gullintanni]

I'm not ignoring anything. I am merely trying to determine what kind of a situation can create the circumstances that OP is looking for to better determine how well resources can be paced. Hence the mention of reserve feats. Your knee-jerk hostility is not appreciated.

While I agree with you it's probably unrealistic to present a dungeon that offers challenges 24/7, there are certainly layers of the Abyss where the presence of hostiles would be a threat at every given time of day.

Let's also assume that said plane of the Abyss is affected continuously with an effect similar to that of a dimensional anchor, such that the party in question must find means off of the plane via some sort of mundane travel, or through discovery and use of a pre-existing portal.

In this situation, the drain on resources is a constant. Challenges will likely rate anywhere between moderate to nigh impossible for nearly every round of the day. Rating classes based on these criteria assume that the party will not have any downtime in between combat.

In scenario number two, let's assume that the party in question is deep behind enemy lines, engaged in guerilla warfare with a rival nation, and lacks casters capable of teleportation. The other side makes use of scrying pools in order to locate the party and send raiding parties after them.

Given the logistics of having to communicate via message and co-ordinate troop movements, it can be assumed that the party will have time to buff and heal in between combat as needed, but will consistently have less than the 8 hours downtime needed to commit to a full rest and re-mem.

Allons-y!

[TuggyNE]

I am now extremely interested in seeing a party of 5 built to take on the entire Underdark in one sitting.

"Sitting" is here used, of course, to mean "multi-month sit-in session to test the players' endurance more than that of their characters" … right? :smalltongue:

[Der_DWSage]

Let's just assume that it's a batch of Aleaxes that are continuously hunting down the PCs. And whenever they kill them, rather than get the power boost they generally get, the Aleaxes are healed to full by whatever deities sent them, because gods are jerks.

And if the PCs try to run away, well, Aleaxes have all their capabilities and always know where their duplicate is.

There, now we have a legitimate situation where 24+ hours of straight combat can be had.

[Kane0]

"Sitting" is here used, of course, to mean "multi-month sit-in session to test the players' endurance more than that of their characters" … right? :smalltongue:

That might just be the case :smallwink:

Of course, that fact that you don't really need to sleep in D&D 3.5 makes things more interesting :smallamused:

[JellyPooga]

I am merely trying to determine what kind of a situation can create the circumstances that OP is looking for to better determine how well resources can be paced.

Time limit.

Aside from Plane Shift-ing to faster time planes (which may not fly with certain GM's or at lower levels), any campaign that puts a hard deadline on how long you have to complete it is going to have this kind of issue crop up.

[Togo]

The plot requires the characters to stop the mystic ceremony. The PCs have 72 hours to run a gauntlet of constant combat encounters in order to gather the information and items they need to stop it.

In terms of tiers, the only difficult placement seems to be traditional Vancian casters, and this depends very much in your local meta - how games are run and what assumptions you use in running them.

For example, some people take fast-plane demi-planes for granted. Other campaigns simply don't have handy access to them, if they exist at all.

I'd say that for levels 1-4, there isn't much in it. Casters run out of spells quickly, but can still use a bow. Fighters run out of hp quickly, but can still use a bow from the back.

5-10 the endurance of non-casters is a significant consideration, if only because out-of-combat healing is cheap and plentiful, and casters don't yet have full access to long-term buffs and strategic spells.

11-16 evens up again. Casters have teleport, magnificent mansion and long term buff spells

17+ and some non-casters are getting a significant boost again, with endurance boosting effects like fast healing, and sophisticated recovery magic. Meanwhile casters are starting to feel the bite of counter-measures such as disjunctions, dispel magic and antimagic, scrying and teleport protections, and so on. At this stage a great deal depends on the individual game, and the individual build.

[Amphetryon]

Time limit.

Aside from Plane Shift-ing to faster time planes (which may not fly with certain GM's or at lower levels), any campaign that puts a hard deadline on how long you have to complete it is going to have this kind of issue crop up.

A time limit adventure that simultaneously disallows you from bypassing encounters - which, by my reading, is key to determining the sort of endurance the OP is trying to codify - is a pretty rare bird, I'd think.

[JellyPooga]

A time limit adventure that simultaneously disallows you from bypassing encounters - which, by my reading, is key to determining the sort of endurance the OP is trying to codify - is a pretty rare bird, I'd think.

I dunno. Bypassing encounters should use resources in and of itself, in my opinion (casting Invisibility, bribing guards, etc.), but I agree, enforced combat with a time limit isn't going to be a common campaign, I wouldn't have thought. Still, it's a plausible one, I think.

[Eldariel]

Crusader, Druid & Cleric are probably the best 3 self-sustaining classes in the game. None of them needs to use spells to deal with most encounters and all of them can keep up their durability no matter what happens and they have the necessary nukes for the particularly hard encounters (Crusader less so of course; he's still just a tier 3 class).

Totemist/Incarnate, Warblade and Swordsage are also pretty good. Also, Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion, etc. get up there as the optimization level gets higher; this game contains ways to replenish your spell slots/power points without resting after around level 9 (or mebbe 5, depends on how much work you do) and of course, these classes are some of the best minionmancers. Your daily spells don't matter if your Simulacrums/Animated Dead/Planar Bound Monsters/Dominated people/such do all your fighting a day.

[Emmerask]

I'm not ignoring anything. I am merely trying to determine what kind of a situation can create the circumstances that OP is looking for to better determine how well resources can be paced. Hence the mention of reserve feats. Your knee-jerk hostility is not appreciated.

Ao is bored and wants to know which "profession" can last the longest without replenishing of resources via resting.

He therefore creates an arena which can not be teleported/planeshifted out of.
He puts the pc and a bunch of monsters in it and throws in new ones every x turns. The monsters itself are not that dangerous to the pc but there is an infinite amount of them.
If you do not fight the monsters he will just insta gib you... because he wants to be amused and not watch hide and seek.

here your scenario ^^

[Flickerdart]

The monsters itself are not that dangerous to the pc but there is an infinite amount of them.
See, this is the key part. Is it 1 kobold every 4 rounds? Is it 4 kobolds every round? Is it a dragon disguised as four kobolds standing on one another's shoulders every round? Because endurance also means HP, and if you can't kill them before they kill you, it doesn't matter that you can attack all day long.

[Gnaeus]

Also, the lower tier casters like Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage would probably be below the mundanes in this case: They don't really have the buffs to survive longterm, even at high levels. A Warmage with reserve feats might make make a somewhat mediocre Warlock wannabe, though, and a Dread Necro with Tomb Tainted Soul and maybe some reserve feats might be decent, too, but they would only be as good as most mundanes at best.

The buffs the Beguiler uses to survive longterm start at spell level 5 with Dominate Person. At that moment, the Beguiler, with 4 dominated fighters, lasts longer than does a single fighter.

Dread Necro, similarly, does not need reserve feats. If he uses all his 4+ spell slots on Animate Dead, he should have much higher endurance than any mundane, since a Dread necro can command animated undead with 5x his HD, and can heal them at will with touch attacks, so certainly has more endurance than anything shy of a crusader.

[Emmerask]

See, this is the key part. Is it 1 kobold every 4 rounds? Is it 4 kobolds every round? Is it a dragon disguised as four kobolds standing on one another's shoulders every round? Because endurance also means HP, and if you can't kill them before they kill you, it doesn't matter that you can attack all day long.

True, though since it should test endurance I would say that one easy CR monster for the level every round that does not require specific tricks (ie flying, doing a specific dmg type etc) should suffice I think.

Wizards while being the best class overall no matter their endurance would have no problem at first, but some time in when their buffs and spells are gone they will have issues.

The main question for me would be, is the fighter long dead before that happens (I would guess yes but not entirely sure about that^^)

Crusaders though should overall win this contest imo.

[Flickerdart]

Wizards while being the best class overall no matter their endurance would have no problem at first, but some time in when their buffs and spells are gone they will have issues.

Reserve feats, bro.

[137beth]

"Sitting" is here used, of course, to mean "multi-month sit-in session to test the players' endurance more than that of their characters" … right? :smalltongue:

Well...if you wanted to do it in one real-life sitting, you could always just give the players greater deities for PCs:smalltongue:


Ao is bored and wants to know which "profession" can last the longest without replenishing of resources via resting.

He therefore creates an arena which can not be teleported/planeshifted out of.
He puts the pc and a bunch of monsters in it and throws in new ones every x turns. The monsters itself are not that dangerous to the pc but there is an infinite amount of them.
If you do not fight the monsters he will just insta gib you... because he wants to be amused and not watch hide and seek.

here your scenario ^^
Okay, so it's a silly scenario. In that case, a high level tier 1-2 could still survive indefinitely: permanent prismatic sphere plus a contingencied permanent prismatic sphere+contingencied stacked explosive runes to kill anyone who destroys it and then create another one--> you can go to sleep for 8 hours. Unless you want to make your scenario even weirder and say that all the monsters have disjunction.

[Deepbluediver]

In both of these scenarios, Rope Trick/Marvelous Mansion/etc still work just fine to get you out of combat long enough to recover, unless there are additional parameters you're not divulging.

Assuming you can get everyone who you need to protect inside, that is, and your enemy doesn't have something similar.

In a large battle there might be other creatures around who are relying on you, and taking an 8 hour transdimensional break doesn't seem like a good option. Particularly if the enemy manages to surround you and is ready and waiting for your eventual emergence.

Basically, the scenario could be anything with a time limit; even if you COULD stop for a break, doing so might make the next fight harder, or allow the enemy to escape, or give the cult time to summon a demon, or....etc etc etc.

[Oko and Qailee]

Level one? Warblade. Level twenty? Wizard.

I would argue at level 20 a Cleric.

DMM Persist, you're as strong at the end of the day as you were at the start.

TBH it doesn't make a big difference, but theoretically the wizard runs out of stuff.

[Emmerask]

Reserve feats, bro.

True there is that, but the dmg really is not that great and most likely not enough to drop a creature and you have to hit the target with one chance /turn .(thinking of acid splatter here).

Maybe there are far more powerful reserve feats I cant remember?

[Oko and Qailee]

While I agree with you it's probably unrealistic to present a dungeon that offers challenges 24/7, there are certainly layers of the Abyss where the presence of hostiles would be a threat at every given time of day.

Let's also assume that said plane of the Abyss is affected continuously with an effect similar to that of a dimensional anchor, such that the party in question must find means off of the plane via some sort of mundane travel, or through discovery and use of a pre-existing portal.

In this situation, the drain on resources is a constant. Challenges will likely rate anywhere between moderate to nigh impossible for nearly every round of the day. Rating classes based on these criteria assume that the party will not have any downtime in between combat.
!

My guess is that this is more of what the OP is looking for. Basically, a "you must keep fighting" thing. No escaping at all.

Which is why I would argue a cleric would win. If all the encounters are hard enough that the wizard must expend resources over time, then he eventually runs out of resources, but a cleric wouldn't.

[Gnaeus]

I would argue at level 20 a Cleric.

DMM Persist, you're as strong at the end of the day as you were at the start.

TBH it doesn't make a big difference, but theoretically the wizard runs out of stuff.

For less resources than the cleric spent on DMM Persist, the wizard can buy a greater rod of extend and take sudden extend and walk around under shapechange for more than 24 hours per day.

[Flickerdart]

True there is that, but the dmg really is not that great and most likely not enough to drop a creature and you have to hit the target with one chance /turn .(thinking of acid splatter here).

Maybe there are far more powerful reserve feats I cant remember?
Fiery Burst and Storm Bolt are both reflex half over an area, so they could clear out hordes of weak monsters effortlessly.

[Emmerask]

CR easy monster do have some hp though (pc level -5 I think would be the CR),
so you would still need multiple casts of storm call or fiery burst to kill a single of those.

At a certain level however permanency Prismatic Sphere could be a winner, I dont think there is any "generic" monster (at that cr without any specials) that can deal with the dmg of the first three barriers alone.

[Slipperychicken]

I am now extremely interested in seeing a party of 5 built to take on the entire Underdark in one sitting.

Didn't someone make a Warforged party a while back, whose goal was to fight indefinitely without resting? Because if you want endurance, you want a race that doesn't need to rest, eat, or make forced march checks.


To aid endurance:

There was this one healing touch ability (reserve feat?) that has no daily limit and can heal people up to half.
Wrathful Healing weapons. It's a +3 enchant, but it means a melee guy won't have to worry much about hp as long as he can keep up the damage. It's positive energy though, so won't work for undead.
Tomb Tainted Soul (or any negative energy healing) + Charnel Touch is infinite heals.
Necropolitans don't need food or sleep, and heal with negative energy so something like Black Sand would work for them.
Reach weapons and tripping shenanigans means that melee foes have a harder time closing on you, meaning you'll take less damage from them.
Cheesy continuous/unlimited-use custom items. You can't spell "cheesy" without "easy".
Keep some nonmetal weapons (or specially enchanted ones with Blueshine or whatever) so your primary weapons won't get munched by a Rust Monster.
Aurorum items so that you can recover if someone sunders them.
If the enemies are mook-waves, then cleave, great cleave, and similar may be useful for clearing them.

[Eldariel]

CR easy monster do have some hp though (pc level -5 I think would be the CR),
so you would still need multiple casts of storm call or fiery burst to kill a single of those.

At a certain level however permanency Prismatic Sphere could be a winner, I dont think there is any "generic" monster (at that cr without any specials) that can deal with the dmg of the first three barriers alone.

Between Planar Binding, Animate Dead, Simulacrum, Dominate Person and company Wizard can walk around with a literal army to handle their fighting for them if they feel so inclined tho, even so as to have something fairly optimal to throw at every problem so you can beat enemies without your minions taking meaningful damage (use creatures with immunities, DR, regeneration, etc.).

[Amphetryon]

Assuming you can get everyone who you need to protect inside, that is, and your enemy doesn't have something similar.

In a large battle there might be other creatures around who are relying on you, and taking an 8 hour transdimensional break doesn't seem like a good option. Particularly if the enemy manages to surround you and is ready and waiting for your eventual emergence.

Basically, the scenario could be anything with a time limit; even if you COULD stop for a break, doing so might make the next fight harder, or allow the enemy to escape, or give the cult time to summon a demon, or....etc etc etc.

How does the enemy also having access to Rope Trick et al invalidate the tactic for resting?

If there are other creatures relying on you to fight ceaselessly throughout the battle, then that's an additional parameter, which I mentioned after "unless" in my quoted post.

If the enemy is attacking ceaselessly, and you manage to Rope Trick, and then the enemy attacks ceaselessly once you re-emerge, you've lost nothing, only refreshed spells, etc, and probably HPs. Doesn't seem to be the downside "ready and waiting for you" would be in a game where fighting wasn't otherwise unending.

[Slipperychicken]

Between Planar Binding, Animate Dead, Simulacrum, Dominate Person and company Wizard can walk around with a literal army to handle their fighting for them if they feel so inclined tho, even so as to have something fairly optimal to throw at every problem so you can beat enemies without your minions taking meaningful damage (use creatures with immunities, DR, regeneration, etc.).

Then it's mostly a question of how long you can keep the spells up.

[Eldariel]

Then it's mostly a question of how long you can keep the spells up.

Simulacrum and Animate Dead last forever. Dominate is days/level as is Planar Binding. Crafted Constructs and whatevers last forever. Mindrape lasts forever. That ought to give us some baseline to work off of.

[Flickerdart]

Dominate is days/level as is Planar Binding
More specifically, the minimum CLs for Dominate and Planar Binding are 11 and 9 respectively, so at least that long. Extend Spell is +1 and easily mitigated, so we're looking at over two weeks of Dominate and over three weeks of Planar Binding at those levels.

[Eldariel]

More specifically, the minimum CLs for Dominate and Planar Binding are 11 and 9 respectively, so at least that long. Extend Spell is +1 and easily mitigated, so we're looking at over two weeks of Dominate and over three weeks of Planar Binding at those levels.

However, at least in my experience said spells are usually not Extended since they tend to last long enough anyways and can easily be replenished; Extending them tends to be a waste of resources (unless one can Extend at +0 adjustment or has a metamagic rod on a day off, of course) if the Wizard has to face this kind of challenge without a chance to prepare (if, for whatever reason, Divinations weren't applicable; e.g. deities were blocked by the Ban of the Unborn or whatever), he's potentially stuck without Extended versions.

We'll also have to account for the fact that a Wizard will likely be buffing his caster level beyond the average at the earliest convenience (protection from dispelling, extra effects from some spells, more duration, overall just good stuff), which provides extra days though on the flipside, depending on the exact nature of the challenge it might not be near the start of the casting of said spells. Overall, it depends but even in the worst case scenario there should be a few day's worth of really powerful minions and any reprieve or extradimensional refuge would enable replenishment (and in the case of Domination, restoration; though ultimately, since Domination is so easily blocked I preferably wouldn't walk around with powerful Dominated minions that could turn against me).

[Vortenger]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the tiers change at all.

DMM persisted clerics are good fighters and can have extended persist mass lesser vigor, so healing for the whole group is covered for 2 days a whack. I believe that fits your requirements.

Wizards have reserve feats and can be more sparing in spell selection, filling slots as needed during their ordeal rather than blowing through spells. Can still burninate all day long starting at level 1.

Druids can melee as well as a warblade, comes with a bonus fighter, and can stay up almost as well as a crusader if spells are used in a thrifty fashion.

Archivists play almost like wizards with insane built in party buffing potential, so check.

Artificer is not affected by daily resources much. Just no time to make new stuff...unless the have a portable hole (or similar) and a crafting homunculus doing the work while the arty fights...

T1 is still T1 from what I see, and a similar case could be made for each tier in turn.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the tiers change at all.

DMM persisted clerics are good fighters and can have extended persist mass lesser vigor, so healing for the whole group is covered for 2 days a whack. I believe that fits your requirements.

Wizards have reserve feats and can be more sparing in spell selection, filling slots as needed during their ordeal rather than blowing through spells. Can still burninate all day long starting at level 1.

Druids can melee as well as a warblade, comes with a bonus fighter, and can stay up almost as well as a crusader if spells are used in a thrifty fashion.

Archivists play almost like wizards with insane built in party buffing potential, so check.

Artificer is not affected by daily resources much. Just no time to make new stuff...unless the have a portable hole (or similar) and a crafting homunculus doing the work while the arty fights...

T1 is still T1 from what I see, and a similar case could be made for each tier in turn.

I would love to see your cases for the crusader, beguiler, and factotum staying the same.

[Slipperychicken]

they tend to last long enough anyways and can easily be replenished;

For the purposes of a specific endurance challenge, it would only be reasonable to give the Wizard the chance to prep his spells for the occasion.

Of course, given the nature of the challenge, it assumes spellcasters don't have a chance to regain spells via resting. Replenishment would be harder, although the Wizard does have a generous edge with the unlimited-duration spells.

[Flickerdart]

Of course, given the nature of the challenge, it assumes spellcasters don't have a chance to regain spells via resting. Replenishment would be harder, although the Wizard does have a generous edge with the unlimited-duration spells.
Wands of Mnemonic Enhancer or staves of Lucubration are a thing, expensive as they might be.

[Emmerask]

Wands of Mnemonic Enhancer or staves of Lucubration are a thing, expensive as they might be.

Am I the only one who always reads staff of lubrication at first? :smalleek:

[Chronos]

After all, a wizard's staff has a knob on the end.

[Vortenger]

I would love to see your cases for the crusader, beguiler, and factotum

Let me ask you this: How would you say any of the above three hold a candle to a DMM persist cleric, A tomb tainted Dread Necro, or a stock druid?

Crusader: Melee awesomeness. Nigh infinite health pool through maneuvers.
Cleric heals the group better and fights as well. druid and his AC fight together, using action economy to outpace crusader damage potential and mitigate incoming damage the crusader would have soaked (and uses healing reserve feat to maintain healthy HP levels at all times). Dread necro self heals worse than the crusader, but has an army of undead to deal and mitigate damage that can be healed endlessly and are completely disposable, since the next enemy to die just becomes more army.

Beguiler: Probably doesn't have to fight thanks to minion-mancy, even at low levels. Very limited by mind-affecting and spell slots per day.
Cleric has as many minion-mancy tools available through Animate dead and rebuke (whatever, there's a domain for that). He can heal, he can fight, and he can crow (F#$! you, Rufio!) Dread can fight, heal, and minionize (though at later levels) so...check. Druid=no contest.

Factotum: Has millions of tricks, IP refresh per encounter, and limited access to healing effects. Theoretically never has to fight at all through use of stealth and guile. Its apples and oranges, but since this is based on durability, a factotum just doesn't have it. Their core chassis is rogue-like, their access to healing is limited, and damage has to built around to be effective. Tough one...Cleric already has healing covered and if need be can use a wand of Guidance of the Avatar to stay up with the fac on sill use, but can still fight, passively heal and unlike the fac, can remove status effects should the need arise. Druid can turn into a stealthy critter if need be, Outfights the fac, and has more ready access throughout the day to restorative effects. Oh and bear, velociraptor, tiger or what have you... Dread necro plays in a whole other ballpark, but viewed from a durability standpoint, is harder to take down due to DR and immunites, plus limitless self healing and no need to optimize damage. If trapfinding need be required, theres an app for that (prodigious use of skeletons).

The thing I see is that the higher tier classes, by virtue of having access to more tricks, powers, healing, etc., effectively obviate the need for complete durability focus. A DMM cleric can do all of the things the classes you mention do. He can do all of those classes tricks (well, maybe not beguiler, but hey), for the cost of 2 DMM persisted spells and a wand

So let me rephrase: I've made a case that tiers stay on top (of the three classes you listed) as they were using three easy examples. I compared them to your examples and those classes were left wanting. Can you explain to me how those three classes would trump a wizard for a two-day no rest set? Or a reserve feat Sorcerer? Or a Zcercyll-bound binder?

Case made. :smallwink:

[Lightlawbliss]

Let me ask you this: How would you say any of the above three hold a candle to a DMM persist cleric, A tomb tainted Dread Necro, or a stock druid?

Crusader: Melee awesomeness. Nigh infinite health pool through maneuvers.
Cleric heals the group better and fights as well. druid and his AC fight together, using action economy to outpace crusader damage potential and mitigate incoming damage the crusader would have soaked (and uses healing reserve feat to maintain healthy HP levels at all times). Dread necro self heals worse than the crusader, but has an army of undead to deal and mitigate damage that can be healed endlessly and are completely disposable, since the next enemy to die just becomes more army.

Beguiler: Probably doesn't have to fight thanks to minion-mancy, even at low levels. Very limited by mind-affecting and spell slots per day.
Cleric has as many minion-mancy tools available through Animate dead and rebuke (whatever, there's a domain for that). He can heal, he can fight, and he can crow (F#$! you, Rufio!) Dread can fight, heal, and minionize (though at later levels) so...check. Druid=no contest.

Factotum: Has millions of tricks, IP refresh per encounter, and limited access to healing effects. Theoretically never has to fight at all through use of stealth and guile. Its apples and oranges, but since this is based on durability, a factotum just doesn't have it. Their core chassis is rogue-like, their access to healing is limited, and damage has to built around to be effective. Tough one...Cleric already has healing covered and if need be can use a wand of Guidance of the Avatar to stay up with the fac on sill use, but can still fight, passively heal and unlike the fac, can remove status effects should the need arise. Druid can turn into a stealthy critter if need be, Outfights the fac, and has more ready access throughout the day to restorative effects. Oh and bear, velociraptor, tiger or what have you... Dread necro plays in a whole other ballpark, but viewed from a durability standpoint, is harder to take down due to DR and immunites, plus limitless self healing and no need to optimize damage. If trapfinding need be required, theres an app for that (prodigious use of skeletons).

The thing I see is that the higher tier classes, by virtue of having access to more tricks, powers, healing, etc., effectively obviate the need for complete durability focus. A DMM cleric can do all of the things the classes you mention do. He can do all of those classes tricks (well, maybe not beguiler, but hey), for the cost of 2 DMM persisted spells and a wand

So let me rephrase: I've made a case that tiers stay on top (of the three classes you listed) as they were using three easy examples. I compared them to your examples and those classes were left wanting. Can you explain to me how those three classes would trump a wizard for a two-day no rest set? Or a reserve feat Sorcerer? Or a Zcercyll-bound binder?

Case made. :smallwink:

wrong case. your claim was that the tiers stay the same, not that certain builds of certain classes are better then another class.

also, I would like to see a cleric build that uses 2 DMM persisted spells and a wand to mimic an intelligently built crusader.

for that matter, I've never heard anyone (besides you) say a wizard is better at enduring then a crusader. Warforged crusader is a rather popular build for not stopping as far as I've seen. Wizard...have fun with those reserve feats.

edit: btw, DMM cleric is a build, not a class. just being a popular build doesn't make it the entire class.

[Oko and Qailee]

edit: btw, DMM cleric is a build, not a class. just being a popular build doesn't make it the entire class.

But it's something the class can do. If a build of a class can out-do anything else another class can do. Then it stands to reason that the class that the build belongs to does things better than the class you're comparing it to.

I'm not familiar enough with TOB to compare crusader to Cleric. But I've made a bunch of diff cleric builds and I have yet to find anything Clerics really cant do as well as anyone else (or barely worse (except psionics).

[Oko and Qailee]

For less resources than the cleric spent on DMM Persist, the wizard can buy a greater rod of extend and take sudden extend and walk around under shapechange for more than 24 hours per day.

The irony is that a Cleric can do that also.

Alteration Domain: ShapeChange

Then you can either:
Copy past what you said

or

Just DMM persist shapechange

The advantage here is that the cleric can choose to either use a wand and save turnings or just use some of his turnings for the day and save gold. The nice thing is that DMM persisting shape change requires you to cast it once.

For the Wizard to keep up shapechange all day he has to cast it more than once a day. So I would argue the cleric uses less resources on this one.

Edit: Also maybe I'm missing something here... Sudden Extend is only once/day, that means you can only shape change with extend once for 10min/lvl... is there some thing you're forgetting to mention that somehow makes a wizard be in Shapechange all day? because what you mentioned doesn't cover 24 hours.

or if you don't wanna do ShapeChange you can do Channel Greater Celestial, being a Solar isn't bad.

[Slipperychicken]

Am I the only one who always reads staff of lubrication at first? :smalleek:

Just make a wand of Grease. Only 750gp, should serve your purposes well enough :smallbiggrin:

[Vortenger]

wrong case. your claim was that the tiers stay the same, not that certain builds of certain classes are better then another class.

also, I would like to see a cleric build that uses 2 DMM persisted spells and a wand to mimic an intelligently built crusader.

for that matter, I've never heard anyone (besides you) say a wizard is better at enduring then a crusader. Warforged crusader is a rather popular build for not stopping as far as I've seen. Wizard...have fun with those reserve feats.

edit: btw, DMM cleric is a build, not a class. just being a popular build doesn't make it the entire class.

How is it 'wrong case'? You have no set parameters, so how can I be wrong? Not possible. Perhaps, oh, not using blanket statement terminology might help your argument in a debate, fyi.

OK...
1. While you're right I used specific builds here, I might say you had specific builds in minds as well. How does a crusader that does not take martial spirit or healing maneuvers measure up to ANY cleric? Maneuvers are build choices; not implicit in the class, as you have, you know, more than one maneuver to choose from at any given time. If you assume build choices, so can I. Counter arguments?
2. If you have read any of the class manuals on any of the DnD forums, I assume you've read passages that sound similar to the following, "Divine Metamagic- the Natural Spell for your cleric, so mandatory it may as well have been a class feature...," and "Tomb-Tainted Soul: As a level 1 Dread Necromancer this is your first level feat. No questions..." I din't really assume 'build specifics', I assumed a reasonably optimized character. Do you think theres a druid out there that DOESN'T take natural spell?
3. I'm not saying specifically that the wizard has more endurance, I'm implying it doesn't NEED it. Damage? Fiery Burst or similar. Mobility? Dimension Jumper / Overland Flight / Phantom Steed /Abrupt Jaunt, etc. (played right, most melee can't touch you...) durations on these are nearly irrelevant. Damage Mitigation? Summon Elemental reserve feat. Make a wall of meat to block for you as a standard action, have party beat the snot out of monster. The wizard is not 'more durable' than the crusader, but no one cares. They can't touch the damn wizard anyways.
4. In what way do you mean 'measure up' to a crusader? You use these terms like we all magically understand your thought process. The example I used assumes a couple of things: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist, and enough +turning to make 14 turning attempts (assuming only 1 nightstick this is laughably easy) no other feats are required. Spells persisted are Divine Power and Mass Lesser Vigor. Do I fight as well as the crusader? No. But I'm full BAB w/ a +6 STR and whatver other tricks I bring, so I'm no slouch. Point for crusader. Healing? Grant fast healing 1 to myself and my party and our pets. Healing is completely passive and doesn't require 'valid targets' unlike devoted spirit maneuvers and lasts 2 straight days. Crusaders healing is likewise passive, but is not available on demand and is only usable on valid targets. Point cleric. Out of combat utility: The crusader has none short of a few skills. The cleric has Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Inspiration (set to CL 10) both on wands, and so can activate each for +35 without rolling to ANY one skill check that takes less than 1 minute. Or only +15 for longer ones, shucks. (This is also why the cleric doesn't give a damn about factoti)
Also the cleric has an amazing toolbox in their spell selection to solve any number of intricate problems, what does the crusader offer in turn? Several points for cleric.
5. These are just basic build options, this doesn't even touch on a prepared character using magic items. A cleric is likely to have scrolls or wands for situationally useful spells, such as break enchantment. A wizard with a wand of solid fog can cripple 50 fights before touching spell slots at all. A crusader can't even UMD effectively... Itemization adds to durability and the higher tiers have access to tools that no one else plays with as easily.
6.Now I'm curious. Show me a crusader (yes, a whole 'build') that can keep up with a similarly well built cleric or druid. Hell, show me one that can keep up with a decently built sorcerer or favored soul! The tiers are well established with pretty good reason. Verisimilitude and durability are not exclusive of one another.

And to paraphrase you: Devoted Spirit maneuvers are part of a build, not class features. You're talking about a specific build here (warforged crusaders using Extraordinary healing to bypass what is meant to be a racial handicap, to be precise). Just being a popular build doesn't make it the entire class.

[Vortenger]

Also just noted you never actually attempted to answer my questions. Hard to debate someone who doesn't actually touch on the points of your argument...

[Gnaeus]

The irony is that a Cleric can do that also.

Alteration Domain: ShapeChange

Then you can either:
Copy past what you said

Actually he can't. You can only use a Domain spell once per day unless you are using an ACF. The wizard was casting 4 times. And that is not just a cleric, that is a particular build of a cleric requiring a certain specific domain.


For the Wizard to keep up shapechange all day he has to cast it more than once a day. So I would argue the cleric uses less resources on this one.

Then you would be wrong. The cleric burned 3 feats (extend spell, persist spell, DMM) and some gold on magic items for the turn attempts, and the opportunity cost for having a specific domain. The wizard took 1 (sudden quicken) and some gold for a greater extend rod. Actually, my math was bad. 3 extended shapechanges should more than cover it, so he doesn't need the feat.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the tiers change at all.
...
T1 is still T1 from what I see, and a similar case could be made for each tier in turn.

the three classes I gave are all tier 3 in the typical class tier system, your origanal statement to which I requested the cases for is quoted above.

All you have given so far is "tier one is the best" and as such you are not defending your side at all. You are presenting one thing with a opener claiming you will prove something different.

[Suddo]

In both of these scenarios, Rope Trick/Marvelous Mansion/etc still work just fine to get you out of combat long enough to recover, unless there are additional parameters you're not divulging.

It could be a race. You have to get to your objective before another opposing party. But then it comes down to the fact that wizards are going to be able clean up a lot more quickly with their "limited" resources than the warblade.

In almost all possible scenarios past around 12-16 Tier 1 win due to the reason they are tier 1. A tier 2 might fall short.

Edit:
@Factotums: They refresh IP when they have had 10 minute (or something) of rest. They would drop down to the level of Fighter in an endurance challenge.

[Vortenger]

wrong case. your claim was that the tiers stay the same, not that certain builds of certain classes are better then another class.

also, I would like to see a cleric build that uses 2 DMM persisted spells and a wand to mimic an intelligently built crusader.

for that matter, I've never heard anyone (besides you) say a wizard is better at enduring then a crusader. Warforged crusader is a rather popular build for not stopping as far as I've seen. Wizard...have fun with those reserve feats.

edit: btw, DMM cleric is a build, not a class. just being a popular build doesn't make it the entire class.

Okay dude, you're switching ships midstream here. Stay with me.
1. We covered the 'certain builds' part with my last post. You cried foul, I pointed out it was fair game since you were doing it too.

2. Gave it to you in the same post. You do not have to acknowledge it, but there it is.

3. Cleared the air on this in the same post. Did not say it was more 'durable'. Said it didn't matter. *See below for details in power vs. durability.

There's that post done, though strangely no mention of these direct answers in the reply.


the three classes I gave are all tier 3 in the typical class tier system, your origanal statement to which I requested the cases for is quoted above.

All you have given so far is "tier one is the best" and as such you are not defending your side at all. You are presenting one thing with a opener claiming you will prove something different.

You asked in the OP what the 'strongest class' was in terms of durability. I believe the T1's are the strongest, durability or otherwise, hence I am indeed saying that tier 1 is the best. Thats what you asked in the first place, I thought.

I believe you're asking why I think tier 3 is still tier 3? I thought I alluded to this in my above post; regardless of how a classes 'durability' looks on paper, the reality is that durability and power are linked, and are hard to quantify. If a T2 sorcerer uses a wand that ends an encounter with one charge, how much damage did he prevent over the course of a fight? Who cares, then, that he has a crappy HD and BAB? Can he go all day? If built well, yes. Does he kick butt? Yes. Can the T3's do what he does? No. So if we establish that T1's are T1 (which you have seemingly agreed upon), and that T2 is still T2 (Having all the power, just not all the access), then logically T3 is still T3: able to do one thing well (in this case durability) and can still function outside his specialty, if only marginally. Does that not meet the definition of the tiers quite well? And keep durability in mind as per this exercise?

As for wanting to see why the beguiler,crusader, and factotum remain in their tier, specifically, We establish their place in the tier system by using a standard. The standard I put forth to show the differences were of known stronger classes. Using this method is a standard practice. The example of combat, healing, and utility I provided for the cleric vs crusader set a strong foundation for the relative power gap between the two. Since the crusader can't touch the cleric's power, it must be a lower tier. Tier 2 would still have access to the clerics tricks but could access them readily. Thus, the poor crusader still does not qualify. Everyone knows the crusader holds its own quite well inT# and so no further inspection is required.

I think that addresses all of your questions. I'm hoping you address a few of mine. Cheers! :smallsmile:

[Lightlawbliss]

Okay dude, you're switching ships midstream here. Stay with me.
1. We covered the 'certain builds' part with my last post. You cried foul, I pointed out it was fair game since you were doing it too.

2. Gave it to you in the same post. You do not have to acknowledge it, but there it is.

3. Cleared the air on this in the same post. Did not say it was more 'durable'. Said it didn't matter. *See below for details in power vs. durability.

There's that post done, though strangely no mention of these direct answers in the reply.

It seems we are focusing on different parts of each others arguments or that at least one of us is misinterpreting the other (I'm leaning to both of us are).


You asked in the OP what the 'strongest class' was in terms of durability. I believe the T1's are the strongest, durability or otherwise, hence I am indeed saying that tier 1 is the best. Thats what you asked in the first place, I thought.


Is there a list/table/whatever sorting classes into groups based on how well they can endure long term combat? If not, maby the playground could get together and make one.
Please tell me where you see me asking for one class. All I see is a request for something sorting the classes (all/most of them) on "how well they can endure long term combat"


I believe you're asking why I think tier 3 is still tier 3? I thought I alluded to this in my above post; regardless of how a classes 'durability' looks on paper, the reality is that durability and power are linked, and are hard to quantify. If a T2 sorcerer uses a wand that ends an encounter with one charge, how much damage did he prevent over the course of a fight? Who cares, then, that he has a crappy HD and BAB? Can he go all day? If built well, yes. Does he kick butt? Yes. Can the T3's do what he does? No. So if we establish that T1's are T1 (which you have seemingly agreed upon), and that T2 is still T2 (Having all the power, just not all the access), then logically T3 is still T3: able to do one thing well (in this case durability) and can still function outside his specialty, if only marginally. Does that not meet the definition of the tiers quite well? And keep durability in mind as per this exercise?

I am not agreeing with tier one all being tier one, I'm not really set on what I feel is right or what is wrong in this. If we assume tier one is still tier one, which you have made an argument (or multiple) for, that doesn't prove anything about the other tiers (or even that some things in other tiers may move into tier one). Inside each their, there are things that are good for that tier and things that are bad for that tier and stuff in the middle. It is also given that some builds will be better then others and may change what tier something falls into. With this logic in mind, I consider any arguments on build void for determining what tier something is (I'll accept stuff in the "you would be a fool not to take this" bin as valid). Can a pure caster built with constantly running as part of the plan when they were built just keep going? yes. Does this mean the class is like that? no.
Tier one has the potential, but they can't fall out of bed with no clue what is about to happen and go for days on end (the tier two generic sor might actually be better with this then the tier one generic wizard). On the other hand, there are classes that could fall out of bed into the same situation and would be able to pull every trick they have without question. The question of limited resources must be considered. That pure caster is going to run out of his combat ending spells at some point. How do you justify the character that can't run out being lower then the character that gets a few bombs and a revolver before he is stuck with (in some cases literally) just a big stick and stuff that won't help?

Finally, even if this all works for tier 1 and (by your claim) tier 2: how does that mean ALL the other tiers are EXACTLY the same. My main reason for picking the three classes I did is because all three of those are significantly different in where other people have put them compared to where you put them.



As for wanting to see why the beguiler,crusader, and factotum remain in their tier, specifically, We establish their place in the tier system by using a standard. The standard I put forth to show the differences were of known stronger classes. Using this method is a standard practice. The example of combat, healing, and utility I provided for the cleric vs crusader set a strong foundation for the relative power gap between the two. Since the crusader can't touch the cleric's power, it must be a lower tier. Tier 2 would still have access to the clerics tricks but could access them readily. Thus, the poor crusader still does not qualify. Everyone knows the crusader holds its own quite well inT# and so no further inspection is required.

For starters, the cleric has to choose healing, buffing, or being actually offensive. The crusader can do 2 (sometimes 3) at effectively the same time.
By your logic, just because something is weaker then something else, it is lower tier. I present the Archivist. By your logic, the cleric is unable to "match the power" of the archivist, and the archivist is tier one, so the cleric must be tier 2. But we all know that they are both tier 1. So your logic can't be 100% accurate.
We all know that most buffs can run out. With what this thread has covered before, going multiple days without the 9 hours to get new spells (or possibly the ability to pray at the right time of day via not knowing the time of day or some other reason) is perfectly reasonable.

Some classes are better then others at just keeping going. However, when figuring out the BEST so that that may be our tier one as well as the WORST so they may be our lowest tier (in your claim as well as other claims: tier 6), we must keep in mind more then just single possibilities. What may nuke one fight won't necessarily nuke other fights, and how many nukes (and how many kinds) is more limited for some then others.

Personally, I might actually put the sor above the wiz for this (or at least equal). For this use, number of spells is a bigger issue then how many different ways you can end the fight.


I think that addresses all of your questions. I'm hoping you address a few of mine. Cheers! :smallsmile:
Hoping I actually see all your questions in the blocks and that my blocks are easy enough to read and understand (preferably the way I meant them to be).

[Oko and Qailee]

Actually he can't. You can only use a Domain spell once per day unless you are using an ACF. The wizard was casting 4 times. And that is not just a cleric, that is a particular build of a cleric requiring a certain specific domain.



Then you would be wrong. The cleric burned 3 feats (extend spell, persist spell, DMM) and some gold on magic items for the turn attempts, and the opportunity cost for having a specific domain. The wizard took 1 (sudden quicken) and some gold for a greater extend rod. Actually, my math was bad. 3 extended shapechanges should more than cover it, so he doesn't need the feat.

You only need to persist it ONCE though....so you don't even need to cast it more than once...also it's not like you're using DMM persist and only getting one shape change out of it. Who ever heard of a cleric persisting one spell?

Some gold on magic items for the turn attempts? Hell, you can cover the needed turning attempts with either a Cha of 18 or a 1k gold religuary symbol.... compared to 24k for greater meta magic rod extend. Even Nightsticks are cheaper (7.5k)

3 extended shape changes, assuming level 20 is 3*10*20, thats 10 hours of Shapechange, not 24.

[Eldariel]

3 extended shape changes, assuming level 20 is 3*10*20, thats 10 hours of Shapechange, not 24.

...assuming caster level 20 (generally higher but I'll humor this), we're looking at 2*20*10 minutes or 400 minutes per casting. 400 minutes is 6 hours 40 minutes (360 minutes + 40 minutes). Three times this is 20 hours exactly. Not 10.

Assuming Ioun Stone and Archmage boosting caster level, it's 22 hours. As it happens, 3 castings of Extended 10 min/level provides you your caster level of hours in duration of said spell (3*2*10 min = 60 min = 1 hour, who woulda thought?). So for 24 hour coverage you need CL 24, which is trivially acquirable. Though I don't really know what you're talking about.

[Jack_Simth]

True there is that, but the dmg really is not that great and most likely not enough to drop a creature and you have to hit the target with one chance /turn .(thinking of acid splatter here).

Maybe there are far more powerful reserve feats I cant remember?
Yeah. Ring of Invisibility + Minor Shapeshift + Summon Elemental + Vampiric dagger (Magic Item Compendium weapon property, +2 equivalent).

Ring of Invisibility means you can't be seen by most opponents.
Minor Shapeshift gets you temp HP as a swift action.
Summon Elemental gives your opponents something to target (and will hit your opponents; no point in you breaking invisibility)
Your Vampiric dagger lets you hit your summons to heal yourself (which doesn't break invisibility, as they're not opponents...).

[Vortenger]

It seems we are focusing on different parts of each others arguments or that at least one of us is misinterpreting the other (I'm leaning to both of us are).

You may be right.


Please tell me where you see me asking for one class. All I see is a request for something sorting the classes (all/most of them) on [I]"how well they can endure long term combat"

You're right, I misspoke on that one. My answer was in terms of tiers, though, even if my examples were of specific classes. I am curious what you mean by long term combat as it has been ill defined in this thread. With nothing else to go on, I've been using 48 hours with no down time as a benchmark.

You are also correct in your assertion that not every cleric is a DMM cleric, nor every sorcerer a Fiery Burst wielding human. And builds that do not utilize such tools may not be as durable as some others. Thing is, those options do exist for those classes, and are popular, and do increase durability. I don't see how they can be discounted entirely.


. Can a pure caster built with constantly running as part of the plan when they were built just keep going? yes. Does this mean the class is like that? no.

I believe this is where we part ways. Build options should be included in discussions like this. They are a huge part of what makes each class viable. Spell slots are not build options, nor HD, BAB and so on, but spells are. And feats. So are maneuvers. Do we discount what extended 24hr (48 hr) buffs the class has access to? Do we ignore the impact a feat like Serenity could have on a paladin's survival? If so then we can't assume a crusader chose any devoted spirit maneuvers. How durable is a crusader who chooses to focus exclusively in SD and WR? Still good, but he loses a lot of staying power. Is he still in the top tier of tank like we all seem to think then?

See the way I see it, the class is like that. Or can be, is often, and may as well be. Its like that and anything else the class can do. Only clerics and pally's can get DMM persist, and so that should be considered part of their relative power. Even if its a build option it is an option that is available to those classes and it does increase their durability relative to other classes. There are many such examples. I use one of the most egregious because its well known.


For starters, the cleric has to choose healing, buffing, or being actually offensive. The crusader can do 2 (sometimes 3) at effectively the same time.

'Has to' are such strong words. An extended DMM persisted Righteous Wrath, and the aforementioned Mass Lesser Vigor allow to grant you and your 30' closest friends Fast Healing 1 and Haste+ passively all day long for 2 days. While smashing face or raining arrows. I believe that fits all three constraints? Might not have the in-combat healz the 'sader has, but everyone heals to full as soon as combats over. With a modicum of optimization you can have 3 or 4 buffs running concurrently. More is doable, too, but we're not getting too buildy.

Casters don't have to use spell slots*. Yes, I said it. (*= mid-level and beyond) Casters can get wands, staves and scrolls that can obviate encounters, cripple enemy hordes, and never spend a spell slot of offensive action, or risk exploding from a mishap with UMD. A simple wand of cure light wounds means a favored soul does not have to burn precious resources healing herself or her team. Wealth covers that. Lower tier classes, especially melee have little access to even UMD on these. The spells can then be used on whatever the caster pleases, probably sparing use of the life saving gems that put them in the high tiers in the first place. I mention this because you've mentioned spell slots as a valuable commodity, and they are, for presumably 50% of an average characters career (11-20) you will likely have more spells on your list than you use in a normal day. If you're building to be conservative, going a few days wouldn't be all that difficult.

Allow me to amend my earlier statement. I think the tiers stay generally where they were. (This is based on the assumption when you speak of durability you mean the ability to rip through 8-12 encounters over 48 hours or so with no down time. If this is incorrect, then perhaps all my preceding statements have been in error.)There would be much lateral movement within tiers, a few would rise (namely crusader), some may fall (duskblade). But as I said earlier the tiers are well established and with good reason. We'd need to have a Why Each Class Is In Its Tier thread about this going before long if we get into too much deliberation...

I must admit I don't get the archivist thing. I mean I don't disagree that its T1 even from a durability standpoint. I don't see why the archivist being awesome relegates the cleric to being less awesome. What about the archivist are you presenting, exactly?

[Krazzman]

I think a general Tier discussion is null and void for this specific point.

We have to actively draft up a new "Tier ranking" as we have Parties ranging from 5 Wizards to 5 Commoners and anything in between.

Stuff like Dread Necromancer and Necrocarnate obviously wouldn't play that nice together with a Paladin. So we should probably divide it into Good Party and Evil Party and No alignment party.

Giving us 3 list with parties that could work together.

On one thing a group of Necrocarnates, Dread Necromancers, And other stuff with more power. Being Undead and abusing that sand or the Dread Necromancers Touch can last 24/7.

Likewise a Warforged Crusader, Warforged Totemist(with Martial Stance for HP/hit), Warforged Cleric with Mass Repair Damage of Time (a Repairversion of Lesser vigor) together with 2 other non sleeping guys can function that way too.

In short... this would take to long. as even with only 2 available classes we have 6 different group-possibilities. Not speaking of single Builds.

And yes I have seen Druids without Natural Spell. Clerics without DMM:Persist or DMM:Quicken too. And I have the opinion that in this discussion we should focus on certain builts that complement each other. And rating this on a Level per level basis. For Example on level 1, 3, 5, 7, and so on.
I think on level 1 a Party of 5 Crusaders comes out in the upper parts. Around 3 or 5 where a Totemist can have taken a feat to get the crusaders stance that heals on hit and focused on as many attacks as possible... 3 crusaders + 2 such totemist or the other way around might work nicely. But in all honesty. Specific builds are saner in this.

[Vortenger]

Stuff.

Quoted for truth. Krazzman, thank you for saying it in a way I couldn't.

[Chronos]

If the Tier 1 classes remain Tier 1 because they can use wands, then the rogue is Tier 1. It's really, really easy to get your UMD check high enough that you will never fail to use a wand.

[Gnaeus]

You only need to persist it ONCE though....so you don't even need to cast it more than once...also it's not like you're using DMM persist and only getting one shape change out of it. Who ever heard of a cleric persisting one spell?

Some gold on magic items for the turn attempts? Hell, you can cover the needed turning attempts with either a Cha of 18 or a 1k gold religuary symbol.... compared to 24k for greater meta magic rod extend. Even Nightsticks are cheaper (7.5k)

These two are mutually exclusive. If you are persisting something else, you are spending money. Even with an 18 cha, (which probably you spent gold to get), you are only persisting 1 thing/day with 3 feats invested. Nightsticks are cheaper (2 for 1 persist) if they stack (and many DMs rule they don't) and if you ignore the 3 feat and a domain initial cost.


3 extended shape changes, assuming level 20 is 3*10*20, thats 10 hours of Shapechange, not 24.

Level 20 shapechange with a +1 CL item=210 minutes, that is 3.5 hours. Extended is 7. x3=21 hours.

[Vortenger]

If the Tier 1 classes remain Tier 1 because they can use wands, then the rogue is Tier 1. It's really, really easy to get your UMD check high enough that you will never fail to use a wand.

1. The OP has alluded a few times to build options not being a viable point of comparison, and as such, we cannot assume that anyone is optimizing any one skill, UMD or otherwise, short of basic skill ranks. From OP:


With this logic in mind, I consider any arguments on build void for determining what tier something is...

This stipulation increases the value of magic items in a relative sense, does it not? Please note there is a general trend where T1's and T2's don't usually have to UMD anything (no chance of failure) when using pertinent magic items. Mid tiers usually have to UMD magic items (some chance of failure). Low tiers have no UMD (no chance of success). And since we can't be sure the rogue is maxing his skill he still runs a very real risk of failure. Do you not think the chance of exploding an item is something to keep in mind when discussing the classes and their interactions with resource saving items? Do you not think that spell effect granting items and access to them are at least factors to be considered in this discussion? I'm reasonably certain the folks discussing the tiers hashed this out as well when establishing them in the fist place. *Checks* Yep. They sure did.

2. My statement was that the classes stay generally in the same tier. I'm not sure why you posit the rogue in such a fashion. I don't think anyone is claiming magic items place classes in their tier. If your referring my my section on spellcaster not being 'required' to use spells, I think you missed the most important part:


I mention this because you've mentioned spell slots as a valuable commodity, and they are,... you will likely have more spells on your list than you can cast in a day.

The OP has also alluded that spellcasters must not be as durable as X because once its spells are expended then the class becomes weaker. I was attempting to point out that through itemization (if not through feats, spell selection, maneuver choices, skill optimization, and every other 'build option' thats been ruled out), a caster may not need to use their own spell slots at all. If the very reason someone ranks down a caster is proven moot or at least less relevant, is that not a worthy observation?

[Kane0]

-Snip-

I'm sorry, I'm usually too concise a person to follow extended discussions/arguments/debates well. I understand that at the core you are saying that in general the tiers stay in the same position when comparing endurance as opposed to the way they are currently sorted (raw power and/or versatility, depending on who you ask).

Can you clarify, to me at least, why you think say a wizard, cleric and/or druid would endure better than a say Crusader, warlock and/or totemist? Substitute in sorcerer, binder, DFA, incarnate, whatever if you like.

If you would like a situation, how about:
- Try to avoid use of magic items, but give a good case for specific ones please.
- Class abilities, ACFs and skills/feats allowed by core + books the classes come from. Same optimization and general intellect/preparation for both sides.
- At least 8 CR appropriate encounters per day for 7 days, consecutive hours of sleep are not guaranteed and downtime between fights is uncertain.
- the most prep time you would have for any encounter is the downtime between them.

So in theory, this situation is a semi-surprise for those involved. They are equipped and prepared for a 'regular' adventuring day (however they would normally prepare) but instead find themselves in the endurance situation.

From what i can tell, your argument is that the tier 1 PCs breeze through each encounter faster and have much more time to breathe with less overall resource expenditure.

The problem I (and others i guess) see with that is while that encounter ending power is good it is still limited, you only get so many before you have to resort to means that the T3 comparisons use, which they are better at, or some way to change the circumstances to allow them to recover. So in the short term (the opposite of what we are measuring) they are indeed still tier 1, but the longer and longer they have to stretch their resources the more and more likely they are to drop tiers.

/2cp

Edit: I forgot to mention. Tier 1s are usually, if not all, high OP ceiling and low OP floor, where the Tier 3s most have mentioned have much smaller gaps (especially ToB). It is possible to play a tier 1 caster as a tier 1 right through to tier 5, but most tier 3s cannot be moved more than one tier. So in this case use whatever you may need to consider the tier 1 casters to belong in that tier, and allow the T3s the same planning and consideration.

[Vortenger]

If you would like a situation, how about:
- Try to avoid use of magic items, but give a good case for specific ones please.
- Class abilities, ACFs and skills/feats allowed by core + books the classes come from. Same optimization and general intellect/preparation for both sides.
- At least 8 CR appropriate encounters per day for 7 days, consecutive hours of sleep are not guaranteed and downtime between fights is uncertain.
- the most prep time you would have for any encounter is the downtime between them.

Given these specific parameters, You're right. A T3's go-all-day-ability will win out in this contest. There is no contesting that.

Thing is, no one gave us a defined sandbox to play in for this exercise. We were given some very loose guidelines. You made up your parameters, just as I did mine. Given your approach, the crusader and ilk will obviously outperform for a long time.

I (given nothing else to go on) figured a 48hr stint with all book access was open for discussion. I mean, why wouldn't it be? Thats a LOT more fighting than the average 15 minute workday so many party deal with, no? (I always though +100% was a good starting point) It would seem you leapt into a deeper part of the pool than I did (a 1,400% increase by comparison). Seems you interpreted it one way and I another. Neither of us are wrong, given where we are coming from.

[Lightlawbliss]

... the average 15 minute workday so many party deal with...

your parties have a 15 minute work day? the parties I tend to be in have at least a 1 hour work day, and a few hours commute time each day.

[Kane0]

-Snip again-

Ah, okay. I can see what you mean now, although unfortunately i've never been part of a group that is so allowing of splat material.

Usually when i hear 'endurance' in an RPG context i also hear 'marathon' and 'attrition'. Most endurance situations i've participated in are either
-get away from/to plot objective ASAP, and they know your coming. Expect waves of attacks and ambushes on your way (only if we can't teleport of course)
-extended skirmishes against opposing force. For example Two parties might be racing in a dungeon, or the party is part of an army at war. Again we don't usually have the option of simply opting out of the situation without consequences.
-defense of a static plot objective (i remember one session being turned into a d&d version of a tower defense game which was really fun)

[eggynack]

I'd probably stick with the druid, even with those limitations. You don't need sleep for spell preparation, and the wild shape and animal companion run all day as a tier three. The druid's status as a tier one added to a tier three and a tier five secures its status as the class with the most endurance. There are some situations where it just ends encounters out of nowhere, which is important, even if you're fighting lots of encounters, and there are some situations where it forces itself through situations with pure endurance super powers.

[Vortenger]

your parties have a 15 minute work day? the parties I tend to be in have at least a 1 hour work day, and a few hours commute time each day.

I never have, but its a common enough saying on these boards that its considered a trope. Forgive me for attempting to inject a bit of humor without invoking the color blue. Note that the comparative percentages that followed is based on a 4 encounter day per the DMG.

@Kane0 I never have had that access to splatbooks either, but since none were precluded in the OP I figured it was all fair game.