Sneak attack question

[fl_swat]

My GM posed a question to me. We were talking about my high damage when I sneak attack (more so on criticals). I am a dagger throwing rogue with Telling Blow, Improved Critical, and Craven to go well together on sneak attacks.

He asked if I knew which single spell could basically make my damage turn to crap. He hinted that it was not a high level spell. He said lower it significantly, but stop it all together so I assume no charm person types, no wall of force, etc.

I am familiar with all of the miss chance spells, but I can't think of any others really. Any thoughts?

[Morcleon]

Um... blur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blur.htm)? Gives the target concealment, 2nd level spell. :smalltongue:

[Turion]

Well, Undulant Innards from Lords of Madness would shut down everything except weapon base and possibly Craven. That's the only one that jumps to mind, though. (it's also got a crap duration, and is not persistable.)

[BowStreetRunner]

Um... blur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blur.htm)? Gives the target concealment, 2nd level spell. :smalltongue:

Yep. Concealment defeats sneak attack.

[fl_swat]

Sorry, I have force weapons to bypass ethereal type concealment and an item with True Vision.

Never heard of Undulant Innards before. Thanks

[Keld Denar]

Concealment doesn't shut down Telling Blow. It would make his attacks 20% less useful, but that's it. I'd guess Wind Wall since he's using ranged attacks.

[fl_swat]

Wind Wall is just a 30% miss chance. I looked at that also.

[hydraa]

A couple of spells that give fortification are primal form lv 3 , fortify familiar lv 3,

Also AMORPHOUS FORM lv 3 (cannot be flanked)

[fl_swat]

Also, plz say if these are official WotC 3.5 spells.

[koboldish]

Just to clarify, but you said you did a lot more damage on criticals. As by the rules, sneak attack damage is not multiplied on crits. I wasn't sure if this was happening based on your original post, so clarification would be great. Thanks!

[Amphetryon]

Just to clarify, but you said you did a lot more damage on criticals. As by the rules, sneak attack damage is not multiplied on crits. I wasn't sure if this was happening based on your original post, so clarification would be great. Thanks!

Telling Blow helps here, most likely.

[tyckspoon]

Just to clarify, but you said you did a lot more damage on criticals. As by the rules, sneak attack damage is not multiplied on crits. I wasn't sure if this was happening based on your original post, so clarification would be great. Thanks!

They might be applying Sneak Attack twice on a crit, once for normal Sneak Attack circumstances and then again for Telling Blow (if so, this is also incorrect.) Craven's bonus does count into a crit, because it's not bonus dice, but considering daggers have pretty cruddy crit numbers it's not a big thing.

There are non-illusion-based miss chances that could still interfere with your attacks; the one that comes to mind for me is actually a psionic power, Concealing Amorpha (and its Greater version.) They basically work like Psionic Blur and Displacement.. except they're Metacreativity (Creation) powers, so True Seeing doesn't worry them a bit.

[koboldish]

That would make a lot of sense, but I wasn't quite sure. Thanks for the clarification!

[Piggy Knowles]

Wind Wall would be my best guess, as it makes ranged attacks impossible.

As mentioned, anything that grants concealment also works. There are the spells like blur, but also things like darkness, invisibility, etc.

From the Rules Compendium:


To deal precision damage, the attacker must see (or otherwise sense) the target accurately enough to pick out a vital spot. Any degree of concealment foils the ability to deal precision damage.

So yeah. Wind Wall, Blur, Darkness, Invisibility, etc., are all core spells that can shut down your damage. If Book of Vile Darkness is allowed, No Light might even do the trick, if you don't have darkvision, and that's a friggin' cantrip.

[RustyArmor]

Or just do what my DM did to me, fight a bunch of war blades. @.@

[Chronos]

Craven damage would also be multiplied on a crit.

But for one spell that would significantly decrease your damage? I'd say Finger of Death. 'Course, it'll also significantly decrease anyone else's damage, too.

[fl_swat]

Is there any spell that would specifically effect a force weapon?

[GnomeGninjas]

Is there any spell that would specifically effect a force weapon?

How does a force weapon negate miss chance from blur, darkness, invisibility, etc ?

[kreenlover]

No, he is saying that his True Vision (Does you mean true seeing?) item negates the miss chance from blur and the like.

However, wind wall still puts him down HARD

[Curmudgeon]

Anything that puts distance between you and the target will make your hit percentage suck with high vacuum, so I'd nominate Fly as a candidate. You're at -2 per 10' and a maximum range of 50' with a -10 penalty there. Anything past 50' is unhittable with a thrown dagger normally. (If you've got Far Shot it's -2 per 20' and a maximum of 100'.)

[fl_swat]

He followed up by saying its something that specifically effects my damage because I use force weapons.

Sorry, I meant True Seeing. I have Scouts Headband.

[nyjastul69]

Dispel Magic?

[Medic!]

Applying specifically to Force and low level makes me wanna say the Shield spell....but it only works on the Magic Missle spell. Not saying he can't be thinking Shield and assuming it will work, just saying strictly as written: Your princess is in another castle.

[Darth Stabber]

Summon undead and it interposing between you and the caster would work.

[Khedrac]

Don't forget that the Scout's Headband only gives you True Seeing for 1 minute per day.

As for spells, there's one called something like Friendly Fire which allows ranged attacks to be redirected to one of the attacker's allies...

[Duke of Urrel]

Nobody has yet mentioned the Obscuring Mist spell, which provides concealment that even True Seeing can't penetrate. So does the Fog Cloud spell.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, Forceward from the Spell Compendium specifically negates force effects.

[Grayson01]

They might be applying Sneak Attack twice on a crit, once for normal Sneak Attack circumstances and then again for Telling Blow (if so, this is also incorrect.)

That is not incorrect RAW Telling Blow: "When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks."
It specifically says in addition to damage from your critical hit, so there for you add it after the damage originally dealt, so after the first set of sneak attack damage.

[PaucaTerrorem]

On a crit, he would get his normal sneak attack(if it applies) and then Telling Blow sneak attack, right?

[Curmudgeon]

On a crit, he would get his normal sneak attack(if it applies) and then Telling Blow sneak attack, right?
No, you just either qualify for sneak attack or not. You don't get sneak attack twice when you're flanking an enemy who's also denied their DEX bonus to AC, and you don't get it three times if you also happen to make a critical hit with Telling Blow. It's always either once or not at all.

[BowStreetRunner]

Telling Blow just adds another method of triggering Sneak Attack. So you would now potentially trigger sneak attack if any of the following were true:

target is denied DEX to AC
you are flanking target
you score a critical hit against the target

I say 'potentially' because none of these gets around other rules that block sneak attack, such as the target having concealment or being immune to precision damage.

[Curmudgeon]

I say 'potentially' because none of these gets around other rules that block sneak attack, such as the target having concealment or being immune to precision damage.
Telling Blow does get around the concealment limitation, just as it gets around the 30' range limitation (or the Scout movement requirement for skirmish damage). It replaces the normal requirements and limitations of sneak attack with a different mechanism (critical hits). Telling Blow can't change target characteristics (can't make them not immune) but it does change what's required by the attacker.

[BowStreetRunner]

Telling Blow does get around the concealment limitation, just as it gets around the 30' range limitation (or the Scout movement requirement for skirmish damage). It replaces the normal requirements and limitations of sneak attack with a different mechanism (critical hits). Telling Blow can't change target characteristics (can't make them not immune) but it does change what's required by the attacker.

I don't see where it says that any of those limitations are bypassed.

"When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks. Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed."

The sneak attack ability states that it deals damage any time one of two conditions is met. Okay, so this now says you also deal damage any time you score a critical hit. But the sneak attack ability also says "Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet" and "She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty" and "Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks" and "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach". Now there is nothing in the wording of Telling Blow that states these other limitations have been removed.

[Harlot]

He could just cast Glitterdust and blind you, as true seeing doesn't fix that.
And:

True seeing, however, [...] does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.
so Darkness and Obscuring Mist would negate your ranged sneak attack.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't see where it says that any of those limitations are bypassed.

"When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks. Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed."

The sneak attack ability states that it deals damage any time one of two conditions is met. Okay, so this now says you also deal damage any time you score a critical hit.
The highlighted word is the source of your confusion. This is a complete new mechanism; it states that you do add sneak attack damage when you score a critical hit. The feat doesn't incorporate disqualifying limitations from other ways of gaining sneak attack directly; instead, they're subsumed: your chances of scoring a critical hit may be reduced when the target has concealment or is at range.

Because Telling Blow

states that you do add sneak attack damage whenever you score a critical hit
lists new limitations which apply in its use
doesn't repeat the limitations (concealment/range/vital parts) shared by the other sneak attack enablers
then we have to treat it as a complete new mechanic. We can't assume they were complete about stating what enables sneak attack but incomplete about what limits it. We just follow what's written.

In short, the answer is Telling Blow doesn't need to say that it bypasses restrictions shared by flanking sneak attack, or target denied DEX to AC sneak attack. As a complete new mechanic it specifies all the enabling and limiting conditions.