Imaginary Damge question

[Blackhawk748]

ok, in a session of dnd last weekend one of my players used Silent Image to make a bunch of wraiths to attack a manticore, now he mentioned that it would suffer imaginary damage as if it was actually being attacked. I went with it, as i remembered reading something that said something like that, i just couldnt remember where. Then another player brought up afterward that it didnt work that way, as he checked illusions and it didnt say anything, honestly it didnt impact the fight at all so it wasnt exactly important, but now its driving me nuts that i cant remember where i read that. so could anyone point me in the general direction?

[Barsoom]

Silent Image has a subtype of Figment. Let's see what the rules say about Figments:


Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

[Karnith]

Illusion spells of the Shadow subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow) deal damage and create partially real effects. A Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), for example, can be used to "summon" a partially real creature that can damage an opponent. You may have been thinking of that.

[Blackhawk748]

Well thats what he the other player showed me, so now i know for the future, im just curious what does imaginary damage, because i distinctly remember reading about it


Illusion spells of the Shadow subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow) deal damage and create partially real effects. A Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), for example, can be used to "summon" a partially real creature that can damage an opponent. You may have been thinking of that.
this was also brought up, but it wasnt what i was thinking of.

I think it went something like this. "A subject has a number of imaginary HP equal to its actual HP, when it loses Imaginary HP it acts as if it was actually wounded, even though it actually isnt. If it "Dies" from Imaginary damage it will fall over and be "dead" until the effect ends." or something similar

[Chronos]

This was explicitly a rule in 2nd edition, and is commonly houseruled in in 3rd, especially by old-timers who remember the 2nd edition rule (often without realizing that they're houseruling).

[Blackhawk748]

If thats so i wonder where i read that as ive never played 2nd ed, i wonder if it got updated in 3.5.............

[ericgrau]

Maybe you haven't, but rumors spread from the past.

[The Viscount]

Perhaps you were thinking of one of the phantasmal x spells?

[Pilo]

Hopefully the damaging illusion come back in D&D Next.

[KillianHawkeye]

This did not ever exist in 3E D&D.

[Blackhawk748]

Viscount is probably right, it was most likely a Phantasmal spell and im only remembering half of it

[TuggyNE]

Hopefully the damaging illusion come back in D&D Next.

Illusions that do damage, or illusions that do imaginary damage? Because I'm inclined to think the latter is needlessly specialized, while the former is certainly a thing in both 3.x and 4e.

[Chronos]

There is actually some support for it in the rules, in that a person who believes an illusion will react to it as though real. It's hard to say what "react to it as though real" would mean for a low-HP character hit by an illusory fireball, if not "fall over unconscious".

[Blackhawk748]

thats a good point, i mean how would someone react to say, an illusionary earthquake? Im not sure what spell you'd use but heres the example.

The party is chasing the bad guy. He runs through a forest and casts a spell and creates an illusionary earthquake. Now lets say that the party mage didnt see him cast, so no spellcraft to identify the spell, and by some act of god everyone failed their save. So what happens? What would happen if a "tree" fell on someone?

Im really curious because i might do this in an upcoming session.

[Prime32]

The party is chasing the bad guy. He runs through a forest and casts a spell and creates an illusionary earthquake. Now lets say that the party mage didnt see him cast, so no spellcraft to identify the spell, and by some act of god everyone failed their save. So what happens? What would happen if a "tree" fell on someone?"There is an earthquake but it is not affecting me". "A tree has somehow fallen through me as if intangible".

[Blackhawk748]

but it says that they "act as though it were real"

[Prime32]

but it says that they "act as though it were real"Yep. A real earthquake; maybe I'm standing in a calm spot. A real tree; maybe it's a ghost tree or something.

It's still possible to ignore something even if it seems completely real. Which is why it's generally better to create illusions that your enemies will see from a distance and try to avoid, like walls, pits or sleeping dragons. Or bluff your enemies by mixing real hazards in with the illusory ones, so that they'll assume the actual pit is fake and walk into it.

[asnys]

thats a good point, i mean how would someone react to say, an illusionary earthquake? Im not sure what spell you'd use but heres the example.

The party is chasing the bad guy. He runs through a forest and casts a spell and creates an illusionary earthquake. Now lets say that the party mage didnt see him cast, so no spellcraft to identify the spell, and by some act of god everyone failed their save. So what happens? What would happen if a "tree" fell on someone?

Im really curious because i might do this in an upcoming session.

As I understand it, if an illusory tree falls on and actually "hits" someone, they automatically disbelieve, no need for a Will save:


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

[Blackhawk748]

Guess im gonna need to use Shadow Illusions