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Yael
2013-07-15, 06:57 PM
I know that EVERY initiator must have the Adaptive Style feat. But, what could an Initiator use?

From core to every 3.5 material, including Dragon Magazines and Forgotten Realms, Legend of the Five Rings, Dragonlance and Eberron allowed.

Aegis013
2013-07-15, 07:11 PM
Actually, you can get by without Adaptive Style. It's only really important for a Swordsage, and depending on optimization level, you might be able to just cycle through readied maneuvers and never need to refresh them before the combat is over.

Anyway, to get to the topic at hand.

Great, general feats:
Power Attack
Stone Power
Extra Granted Maneuver (the only one Crusader should never be without)
Leap Attack

Lockdown feats:
Improved Trip
Knock-Down
Standstill
(these have awesome synergy with Thicket of Blades)

Charger feats:
Shocktrooper
Battle Jump

Other considerable feats:
TrollBlooded (this one will likely be considered cheese by a lot of tables)
Martial Study and Stance (you get your stances at very strange times)
Anything needed for a PrC you want.

There's two Crusader Handbooks which can give you a larger selection of feats, one here on GitP and one over on BrilliantGameologists.

Yael
2013-07-15, 07:13 PM
Actually, you can get by without Adaptive Style. It's only really important for a Swordsage, and depending on optimization level, you might be able to just cycle through readied maneuvers and never need to refresh them before the combat is over.

Anyway, to get to the topic at hand.

Great, general feats:
Power Attack
Stone Power
Extra Granted Maneuver (the only one Crusader should never be without)
Leap Attack

Lockdown feats:
Improved Trip
Knock-Down
Standstill
(these have awesome synergy with Thicket of Blades)

Charger feats:
Shocktrooper
Battle Jump

Other considerable feats:
TrollBlooded (this one will likely be considered cheese by a lot of tables)
Martial Study and Stance (you get your stances at very strange times)
Anything needed for a PrC you want.

There's two Crusader Handbooks which can give you a larger selection of feats, one here on GitP and one over on BrilliantGameologists.

This is great, now: A friend of mine is building a crusader, he's actually at 11th and he's up to deal damage and tank a little. What can he do? What could he take? He's aiming for maneuvers and Stances. Something you would recommend?

Aegis013
2013-07-15, 07:23 PM
This is great, now: A friend of mine is building a crusader, he's actually at 11th and he's up to deal damage and tank a little. What can he do? What could he take? He's aiming for maneuvers and Stances. Something you would recommend?

Tanking isn't really a thing in D&D the way it is in MMOs. For example, your big beefy fighter runs up and hits the bad guy in the face with his sword. Ok, but now the bad guy defensively teleports into the back of the ground and attacks your squishy caster guy in the back.

There's a way to get around this, and it's often referred to as Battlefield Control. Essentially, you lock down an area of the battlefield so that the monsters or enemies have a hard time escaping your reach and reaching your allies.

Crusader is the best melee class to do this with, imo. The best.

He'll want to focus on the lockdown line of feats.
For an 11th level Crusader I'd recommend something like:

If human toss in Exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, otherwise, use a guisarme for the improved reach and armor spikes in case enemies get inside your held weapon range. (then 5ft step back and wail on 'em to trip them with knock-down)

1. Combat Reflexes
3. Improved Trip
6. Knock-Down
9. Standstill

Or replace whichever of these seems least beneficial with Extra Granted Maneuver. (likely EWP: Spike Chain if human).

Specifically with the stances Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades, as it will make it difficult for enemies to escape the Crusader. Iron Guard's Glare will help if an enemy gets away, and Thicket of Blades will help if the enemy is in the Crusader's reach (will be at least 10ft in every direction with the guisarme).

If the enemy can't be halted by tripping them, use Standstill to prevent them from moving away towards your companions.

As far as maneuvers go, it's hard to go wrong with stuff out of the Devoted Spirit school, but I'd also heartily recommend White Raven Tactics as an extra support option. Though ask your DM about his rules regarding the ability (can it be used on yourself to give yourself an extra turn in the round? can it only be used on allies, excluding yourself? etc). Pick up the maneuver Divine Surge when possible, as that thing hits impressively hard, and make sure to keep the best attack+heal (Crusader's Strike, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike, and for very late game, Strike of Righteous Vitality) in his maneuvers readied. They can be a real life-saver while still allowing the Crusader to damage his enemies at the same time.

Edit: I'd also recommend Mountain Hammer, but more for out-of-combat utility than in combat at level 11. It lets you break down walls and such, which can be really nifty.

Feint's End
2013-07-15, 07:32 PM
Second for extra granted manevuer (That is the must have on crusaders)

If he starts level 11 you can do something like this:

Human Crusader 9/Figher 1 (for the feat)/cleric 1

feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, knockdown, power attack, extra granted maneuver

take cleric with the travel and animal domain and exchange them for the devotion feats.

highest stats into strength and dexterity
charisma should be at least 14 and intelligence at least 13
con is important but you can live with 14 or 12 (because most enemies won't reach you and you have high hitdie anyways)
wis is a dumpstat but if possible get 11 for the few clericspells you have

For stances just make sure to pick up thicket of blades (so 5 foot steps provoke attack of opportunitys)

gearwise get a customitem of enlarge person on activation (4000g) so you can increase your reach at will

Enlarged and with Animal Devotion activated you get +6 strength ... assuming a +4 strength item and 18 startingstrength you got a strength of 30 easily (probably more but that's a safe bet). Combine with the large size and improved trip for a +18 bonus to trip.

Damage will be done mainly by maneuvers (such as divine surge which is a great damage maneuver itself) and Power Attack.

Definitely get a weapon (Guisarme is about the only choice you really have here) of Martial Discipline (Devoted Spirit) for 3 extra to hit (so you can powerattack without care).

edit: at level 12 get mageslayer to annoy those defensive casters out there
edit 2: @ Aegis:
He needs Combat Expertise for improved Trip
Stand still is Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Lockdown for poor .... meaning you don't need it if you already go those feats
-> take power attack instead and become a great damage dealer at the same time

Aegis013
2013-07-15, 07:53 PM
edit: at level 12 get mageslayer to annoy those defensive casters out there
edit 2: @ Aegis:
He needs Combat Expertise for improved Trip
Stand still is Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Lockdown for poor .... meaning you don't need it if you already go those feats
-> take power attack instead and become a great damage dealer at the same time

Derp, you're right. Every time I do a tripper build personally I get it through Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2 (my goodness, what a name) just to bypass that requirement, so it slipped my mind.

navar100
2013-07-15, 09:41 PM
Crusader does not need Adaptive Style at all. He starts off readying all the maneuvers he knows. By the time he readies more than he knows, the ones he isn't readying are obsolete unless you specifically chose maneuvers for particular situations.

Extra Granted Maneuver, on the other hand, is almost a must have. You can get by refreshing every 4 rounds as normal, but refreshing every three rounds and starting off with one more granted maneuver does help especially if your game has lots of long combats.

Stone Power works well with Steely Resolve, but mind your maneuvers. If you aren't readying a lot of Stone Dragon the feat can becomes wasted for lack of use. One or two non-Stone Dragon strikes are ok, but more than that you're better off not taking the feat.

Vital Recovery is a good one for Crusaders. Because you refresh for free, once per combat you get a free potion of Cure Light Wounds effect which helps your endurance Crusaders are known for. At mid-levels it's like a Cure Moderate Wounds potion.

Provided you stay single class, RAW you need several Martial Stance feats to get a 3rd level stance, a 5th level stance, a 6th level stance, and an 8th level stance at earliest possible level. Otherwise you wait a couple of levels for the 5th level and 6th level but never get a 3rd or 8th. Staying with RAW, multi-class two levels, preferably Warblade or Swordsage and pick up the Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers before you reach 8th level Crusader. That fixes you stance progression a bit to get your 5th and 8th level stances, but you still need Martial Stance for 3rd level and 6th level. To stay single-class, ask your DM if you can use the on-line home-brew Tome of Battle errata which fixes the stance progression problem, though you still need Martial Stance for 3rd level and 6th level stances. Alternatively, ask for a house rule that martial adepts can change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels there after.