is this build legit by raw?

[morkendi]

I had to leave last game session mid fight because of work. I let my dm run my character who ended up with a bad run in with a vorpal sword. Long story short, I need to make a new character. The party had some pretty high templates and have since bought them off, so they are pretty powerful. I want to make sure what I have so far is right before I take it out any farther. I know it has a little cheese, but I an avoiding some of it that I could take even further.

Race is Dragonwraught kobold loredrake.

Lvl 1-4 are all druid
lvl 5 is sorcerer
lvl 6 is arcane hierophant

2 flaws allowed, I took weak for -1 str and frail for -1 hp per lvl. I am not the tank, so it can be handled.

Feats are so far
Dragonwraught
southern magician
Lost tradition to change druid casting to charisma as well unless it works out better to change the sorcerer casting to wisdom, Have not decided yet
I also put draconic rite of passage in feats to help my case with dm if needed, I can take it out if he allows me to spend my character wealth to cover it.
This would leave me with either 1 or 2 open feats so far.

This gives me the effective level of druid 5 and sorcerer 5 at actual character lvl of 6 when it comes to spells.

Animal companion. If I take the animal companion acf for sorcerer, this give me a grand total of 7 character levels for animal companion. 4 for druid, 1 for hierophant, and half my sorcerer lvls which is effectively 4 which makes it a 2. So 4+1+2. I take Dire wolf and give it combat riding instead of other tricks.

I am avoiding the old age tricks for +3 to mental stats as well as epic feat tricks. Is this build legit so far or am I making mistakes?

[Devronq]

I had to leave last game session mid fight because of work. I let my dm run my character who ended up with a bad run in with a vorpal sword. Long story short, I need to make a new character. The party had some pretty high templates and have since bought them off, so they are pretty powerful. I want to make sure what I have so far is right before I take it out any farther. I know it has a little cheese, but I an avoiding some of it that I could take even further.

Race is Dragonwraught kobold loredrake.

Lvl 1-4 are all druid
lvl 5 is sorcerer
lvl 6 is arcane hierophant

2 flaws allowed, I took weak for -1 str and frail for -1 hp per lvl. I am not the tank, so it can be handled.

Feats are so far
Dragonwraught
southern magician
Lost tradition to change druid casting to charisma as well unless it works out better to change the sorcerer casting to wisdom, Have not decided yet
I also put draconic rite of passage in feats to help my case with dm if needed, I can take it out if he allows me to spend my character wealth to cover it.
This would leave me with either 1 or 2 open feats so far.

This gives me the effective level of druid 5 and sorcerer 5 at actual character lvl of 6 when it comes to spells.

Animal companion. If I take the animal companion acf for sorcerer, this give me a grand total of 7 character levels for animal companion. 4 for druid, 1 for hierophant, and half my sorcerer lvls which is effectively 4 which makes it a 2. So 4+1+2. I take Dire wolf and give it combat riding instead of other tricks.

I am avoiding the old age tricks for +3 to mental stats as well as epic feat tricks. Is this build legit so far or am I making mistakes?


Everything is correct. Alot of people don't believe the kobold qualifies for loredrake as there is discussion as to whether he is a true dragon or not but assuming your DM is ok with it working than everything seems fine so far.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Is this build legit so far or am I making mistakes?

There are several things that I do not understand or that seem to not quite pan out:

Not wanting to beat a dead horse here, but I do not believe that dragonwrought kobolds qualify for loredrake, given that that involves reducing the racial HD to d10 – which clearly implies that affected creatures must have larger racial HD to begin with. So taking loredrake does not appear to be RAW-legal, but of course you might still get it past your DM.
Kobolds do not qualify for Southern Magician, which has the prerequisite “Mulan human”.
I don’t understand how you arrive at caster level 5 for the sorcerer: 1 (class) + 2 (loredrake) + 1 (arcane hierophant) = 4. The only possible explanation I could find in your build is Southern Magician, but that does not mention caster level.
You need BAB +4 for arcane hierophant, but Druid 5 is +3 and Sorcerer 1 is +0, so one plus seems to be missing.
Are you sure that levels from different classes stack for animal companions? I don’t know where the Sorcerer ACF is described, but I’d check that levels indeed stack if that is important for your build.

[Crake]

I don’t understand how you arrive at caster level 5 for the sorcerer: 1 (class) + 2 (loredrake) + 1 (arcane hierophant) = 4. The only possible explanation I could find in your build is Southern Magician, but that does not mention caster level.


I'm guessing +1 from greater draconic rite




Are you sure that levels from different classes stack for animal companions? I don’t know where the Sorcerer ACF is described, but I’d check that levels indeed stack if that is important for your build.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure having two animal companion abilities don't stack with each other unless they specifically say they do.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I'm guessing +1 from greater draconic rite

The build specifies only the standard rite of draconic passage, which does not give sorcerer levels.

But if the greater rite was implied in the description, this doesn’t work by RAW: The prerequisites state that you can undergo the greater rite only when you have 6 HD. So the build needs to level up before undergoing the greater rite, which means that the result of the greater rite cannot be used to qualify for the level.

[TuggyNE]

Wisdom is generally more useful than Charisma, since it applies to Will saves and perception skills.

[morkendi]

I got a couple more levels to fill out, so I will be able to get the greater draconic right next lvl by dropping arcane hierophant back i guess, my mistake. The animal companion does stack, its a acf in UA and says it counts as s druid animal companion but at half you sorcerer or wizard level. I think I can drop southern magician all together if I have to wait for 6 hd. Then it would give more feats to spend on metamagic. There is the argument on weather or not the kobold qualify for loredrake, I guess that would be up to DM. If I need to have a racial HD to drop, I may be able to add the feral template from savage species because it makes you have a d10 no mater class and then drop that to d6 that in effect does what loredrake says. It would add +1 LA, but DM allows buy back. I guess it would be druid 4/ sorc 2/ into hierophant. That would put me at effective druid lvl 5 and sorc 6 and drop my companion 1 lvl.

[Vaz]

There are several things that I do not understand or that seem to not quite pan out:
[LIST]
Not wanting to beat a dead horse here, but I do not believe that dragonwrought kobolds qualify for loredrake, given that that involves reducing the racial HD to d10 – which clearly implies that affected creatures must have larger racial HD to begin with. So taking loredrake does not appear to be RAW-legal, but of course you might still get it past your DM.
Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragon Type; they have D12 HD.


Kobolds do not qualify for Southern Magician, which has the prerequisite “Mulan human”.
True. However, this is often ignored.

[morkendi]

I forgot, druid 4/ sorcer 2 would also clear up the bab issue. Thanks for the help guys.

[Ashtagon]

"Weak" flaw for -1 Strength doesn't exist. The nearest thing is the "Pathetic" flaw, which is -2 Strength (or -2 on any ability score of your choice really).

[Urpriest]

If you have two Sorceror levels then it will count as one level for animal companion advancement, since it isn't advanced by increases in caster level. So your animal companion will be as a 5th level Druid only.

[morkendi]

If you have two Sorceror levels then it will count as one level for animal companion advancement, since it isn't advanced by increases in caster level. So your animal companion will be as a 5th level Druid only.

Had to bump things up 1 lvl to qualify for hiero, so it would be druids 4/ source 2/ arcane hero 1 which would put companion at 6 because heiro does advance it I believe.

[Spuddles]

Use the spellhoarding and riddles templates to get +8 to int and change your sorc casting to wizard casting. Then use academic priest to change druid casting to int based. Now you can skill monkey a little.

[Urpriest]

Had to bump things up 1 lvl to qualify for hiero, so it would be druids 4/ source 2/ arcane hero 1 which would put companion at 6 because heiro does advance it I believe.

Once you take that level. I'm assuming you're still starting at ECL 6 though, right?

[morkendi]

Party is lvl 11 as well as having some pretty high templates though they have since payed them off. I'll have a few more levels, but they will all be in the hierophant, so I wanted to get the start of the build right as it is pretty strait forward after that as I will most likely go all 10 lvls and probably cap off with theurge. It will end up druid 4/ sorc 2/ AH 10/ mystic theurge 4. Would end with effective lvl 19 sorcerer and 18 druid which I think is better than most other thuerge type classes.

[Samalpetey]

Use the spellhoarding and riddles templates to get +8 to int and change your sorc casting to wizard casting. Then use academic priest to change druid casting to int based. Now you can skill monkey a little.

Where's Spellhoarding from?

[Piggy Knowles]

It's worth noting that the FAQ states that Southern Magician will not qualify you for prestige classes. I don't really agree with Skip 's justification, but if you're in a game that considers the FAQ an official source, that's a no-go. Alternate Source Spell works as an alternative in that case, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

Where's Spellhoarding from?

Dragon Magazine, but I can't remember the issue.

[Vaz]

313, Iirc.

[Spuddles]

Dragon psychoses templates (spellhoarding, riddled) are from DR 313, and can also be found in chet erez's 3.5 template index. I have a hard copy of that issue and the index entries are without error or omission, if you cannot get access to dr 313.

[morkendi]

Once you take that level. I'm assuming you're still starting at ECL 6 though, right?

I'll be 7 once I take my first level of arcane hierophant. All the kobold stuff is doing is getting rid of the lost actual lvls I would lose when compared to someone who went strait sorcerer or straight druid.

Also, southern magician was dropped. I didn't have the bab to qualify until I got to druid 4/ sorcerer 2. By then I can take the greater right of passage which would push me up high enough to qualify without using southern magician.

[Renen]

For spellhoarding, dont you need to be a "true" dragon?

[Spuddles]

For spellhoarding, dont you need to be a "true" dragon?

For all the dragon psychoses templates, actually.

[Khedrac]

One point about going with the sorceror variant that has an animal companion instead of a familiar, its that it is debatable whether you can then still add familiar abilities to your companion familiar.

The wording is that the companion familiar gains "many of the abilities that a familiar would normally possess" - which for your arcane class is nothing. One can read the wording as that the arcane class is irrelevant, the AH grants the abilities, but it is not clear. If you are specifically giving up your familiar to make your companion more powerful don't expect your DM to then allow you to add them back on on-top of the boosted companion level. At best you would count as only your AH level for familiar abilities as your sorceror levels give nothing.

[Chronos]

One more note, the Lost Traditions feat is third party, so double-check with your DM that he'll allow it.

[Jeff the Green]

One point about going with the sorceror variant that has an animal companion instead of a familiar, its that it is debatable whether you can then still add familiar abilities to your companion familiar.

The wording is that the companion familiar gains "many of the abilities that a familiar would normally possess" - which for your arcane class is nothing. One can read the wording as that the arcane class is irrelevant, the AH grants the abilities, but it is not clear. If you are specifically giving up your familiar to make your companion more powerful don't expect your DM to then allow you to add them back on on-top of the boosted companion level. At best you would count as only your AH level for familiar abilities as your sorceror levels give nothing.

A) RAW it doesn't matter.
B) If your DM says it does, just grab Obtain Familiar as a feat.

[Spuddles]

One point about going with the sorceror variant that has an animal companion instead of a familiar, its that it is debatable whether you can then still add familiar abilities to your companion familiar.

The wording is that the companion familiar gains "many of the abilities that a familiar would normally possess" - which for your arcane class is nothing. One can read the wording as that the arcane class is irrelevant, the AH grants the abilities, but it is not clear. If you are specifically giving up your familiar to make your companion more powerful don't expect your DM to then allow you to add them back on on-top of the boosted companion level. At best you would count as only your AH level for familiar abilities as your sorceror levels give nothing.

I would agree that, by RAW, AH doesn't stack with anything but druid for familiar companion. Incidentally, it doesn't even "stack" it just says "add druid levels to determine benefits", which means you could theoretically trade away both AC and familiar and still get full benefits from familiar companion.


One more note, the Lost Traditions feat is third party, so double-check with your DM that he'll allow it.

Academic Priest & Dynamic Priest from Dragonlance are slightly less 3rd party feats that do about the same as Lost Traditions (no con based casting, though).

[morkendi]

So I think I have everything worked out.

Race dragonwraght loredrake kobold.
Template feral with the d10 reduced to d6 from loredrak

Druid 4/ sorcer 2/ arcane heirophant 4 should put me at 11ecl with rest of party. I will by the ecl off if able. Other characters have bought of LA 4 template, but I will as DM before I drop it.

Effective lvl of druid is 8 and sorcerer is 9.
Animal companion as 9th lvl druid. Taking dire wolf with combat riding. AH says you retain animal companion already possessed and then add to it. It stacks with ranger/druid animal companion. The sorcerer acf that replaced familiar states as ranger which is half of what a druid gets. Ranger and druid stack, so all these should work like my companion was 5th lvl when I entered AH.

Flaws are frail for -1 HP a lvl and slow for half movement. Would be 20 because kobold is 30 and feral adds 10. I'll be on wolf anyway

Feats are dragonwraught, lost traditions (moving sorc to be wisdom based), practiced spellcaster druid, quicken spell, natural spell.

Wealth spent on right of passage and greater right. After that, I'll probably grad some basic gear like a haversack and such.

[Urpriest]

So I think I have everything worked out.

Race dragonwraght loredrake kobold.
Template feral with the d10 reduced to d6 from loredrak


...what d10? You don't have any racial hit dice.

[morkendi]

Feral template gives a d10 at every lvl regardless of class. It makes it fit the wording a little better.

[Tanuki Tales]

...what d10? You don't have any racial hit dice.

Having the Dragon type, Dragonwrought Kobolds technically have a d12 HD, just 0 of them. The mentioned templates and such just reduce the size of the HD he has none of, not the amount.

Though, since Dragonwrought is a feat and would be applied after templates, wouldn't it go from d8 (Humanoid), to d10 (Template) to d12 (Dragon type) and back down to d10 (Loredrake)?