Surviving as a Melee in a "Low Magic" world

[CRtwenty]

Well the campaign I'm currently playing in has a relatively inexperienced DM who is trying to run a "Low Magic" world. However the only magic he seems to be keeping away are magic items. Casting Classes are untouched in spell selection and abilities, and the monster we fight are still geared towards the regular CR of our party.

So basically the only thing that's changed is that melee classes (like me) are stuck on the sidelines with our masterwork weapons and armor while the casters throw 5th level spells around like candy, and the monsters have DR that is nearly impossible to penetrate.

What's a melee to do? :smalleek:

[lord_khaine]

Well, the way i see it you have 3 options.

a) Pick up a ToB class.
b) Get a more reasonable GM.
c) Bend over and take it like a man :smalltongue:

Option c isnt much fun, so i would recomend either picking up a class thats better suited for getting along without gear, or try to stear your gm towards these boards, in the hope that he gains enlightment :smallbiggrin:

[Krazzman]

Well the campaign I'm currently playing in has a relatively inexperienced DM who is trying to run a "Low Magic" world. However the only magic he seems to be keeping away are magic items. Casting Classes are untouched in spell selection and abilities, and the monster we fight are still geared towards the regular CR of our party.

So basically the only thing that's changed is that melee classes (like me) are stuck on the sidelines with our masterwork weapons and armor while the casters throw 5th level spells around like candy, and the monsters have DR that is nearly impossible to penetrate.

What's a melee to do? :smalleek:

I would consider going Totemist. I'm currently looking for a decent build myself that won't overshadow my party and is perfoming good on every level but so far I get the impression that a
Razorclaw(Shifter Trait) Shifter(Eberron Campaign Setting) Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) can perform rather well without Magic Items. Although you might want to ask if Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds) is allowed.

Else for a Ranged Totemist a Raptoran might be a nice pick but I'm not sure what Racial adjustments the Raptorans have. But free flight from 6th level on seems nice (or you can shape something to get flight).

[Darth Stabber]

Totemist with VoP! You have all sorts of strong options, and you can circumvent the item restrictions. Druid can do it well too (as can incarnate). The bottom line is that WBL is a "load bearing wall", as in it what little semblance of blance the game has is dependent upon it, to actually keep up with appropriate threats VoP is a workable stopgap.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Some additional options:

1. Talk to your DM. D&D does not work with a low magic setting after low levels.
2. Get your party Wizard/Cleric to supply the melee with Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment.
3. Play a melee Cleric or Wildshape Druid.
4. Die a messy and painful death - goto 3. :smalltongue:

[CRtwenty]

Well I'm playing as a Warblade, so I do have a few abilities I can use. But even so the other non-caster PCs (especially the Rogue) are getting pretty screwed over.

Oddly enough the DM seems to think I'm the most powerful character in the party and keeps sending stuff to target me, despite the presence of a Sorcerer and Druid who outclass me by a long shot.

The DM is new, and is a regular player when I DM so I can't exactly leave the game, and I really want him to improve. But every time I've brought it up with him he just says something like "Magic Items need to be rare, I want them to be rare and powerful, not just something you get in a magic mart". He offered me something like a Legacy Weapon as my sole magic item, but that's a whole other can of worms. :smallannoyed:

It's especially irritating since I did the exact same mistake when I started DMing. So it's like looking back in a mirror at my early DMing style.

[caden_varn]

You could suggest using inherent bonuses instead to make up for the lack of magic. I don't have a reference, but I am sure there was one for 3.5 out there somewhere, which basically gives you extra +attack & AC as you level.

Helps a little at least, although it won't solve all your issues.

Otherwise perhaps suggest playing a different system which supports this playstyle better. I understand where your DM is coming from, I would also prefer magic items to be rare and seem valuable. Unfortunately 3.5 is nto a great system to do this with.

[aura59]

band together with said rogue and try to talk some fair into the man

[Krazzman]

Other possibilities:

Ask him why he thinks you are the strongest.
Ask what he really understands of "Low Magic" world. (Not just Items, what about casters, what stops them from building it themselves?)
Maybe give him a better direction to "awesome magix items" than "your only magic item can be a legacy weapon".
Give him advice based on your experience and tell it to him nicely.
[not serious]
Just buy Psionic Items
[/not serious]

[eggynack]

This seems like one of those not worth the effort kindsa deals. As a warblade you're doing better than most, but this just isn't the place to take half measures. You'll always be fighting your way upstream in a battle you have no hope of winning. I think that the key to surviving as a mundane guy in a low magic world is just to not do so. Leave your fighterish ways, become a caster of some kind, and embrace the irony of a "low magic" game that's largely made of magic. There's stuff you could do to make this situation less horrible, but that probably won't make the situation not horrible. You should probably try to convince the rogue to follow suit.

[Khedrac]

But every time I've brought it up with him he just says something like "Magic Items need to be rare, I want them to be rare and powerful, not just something you get in a magic mart".
This is actually a reasonable position, it's just that D&D is not a system that supports it very well.

What you can now say to him is "so - doesn't that mean that DRX/magic should be equally rare? If there are lot of things going round that can only be hit by magic weapons (such as all incorporeal creatures) then would not everyone make magic weapons as a defence?"

Also it is worth discussing the imbalance between the melee and the casters, and it may be worth bringing the caster players intot he discussion - they may be OK, but tht does not mean they won't agree with you and be able to make constructive suggestions.
Further is magic weapons are that rare they will be very expensive - time to take Create Arms and Armour and make a fortune! - Find out how much he thinks magic weapons will be worth when found and if it is standard ask him why price does not reflect rarty. If it is more than standard ask him what happens to his economy when the party makes magic weapons...
Don't actually set out to break stuff, but talk to him explaining that thing will break when you take logic steps that are pretty much required by your circumstances.

Also ask if he will divide magic items into 2 categories - standard D&D tiems and special ones that are the rare things he wants them all to be.

[Darrin]

As many have pointed out, the only real solution here is to talk to the DM and make him understand that the expectations he has for the game and the expectations of the players are out of congruence, and this is going to cause problems for his campaign in the long run.

There are some methods you can use to get around his hangups, but they're likely to make the problem worse: if you figure out how to "cheat" your way to more magic items, then he's likely to over-react and start smashing things with the banhammer.

That being said, some things you could try:

1) Ancestral Weapon (BoED) or Ancestral Daisho (Oriental Adventures version of the Samurai). You didn't say he was "low loot", but he's likely to be stingy with GP if he thinks all his players want to do is go shopping at the magic mart. This allows you to convert loot into a decent magic weapon that you can enchant without jumping through a lot of hoops (saving up/trading in equipment, finding a spellcaster, etc.). If you're careful to load up your weapon with modest enhancements or just focus on bypassing DR, then this may not set him off. If he doesn't go for the whole "ancestral" thing, you can try Kensai, but then you're sacrificing BAB and initiator levels for enchantments.

2) Switch your PC to a totemist or druid. Many might suggest going full-on "Vow of Poverty", but I'd be leery of the Exalted rules with an inexperienced DM... it's like hanging a big neon sign on your PC inviting the DM to "Please f*** with me and force me to break my vows."

3) Leadership -> Wizard/Warlock/Artificer Cohort. Direct your cohort to convert GP into magic items via crafting feats. This absolves the party spellcasters from the tedious busywork of crafting, and presumably you can drop off your cohort somewhere and come back days/weeks later to pick up your completed magic items. This costs the cohort XP, but you don't really need your cohort in combat, so it shouldn't matter if they are a few levels behind. Since this option is essentially "create your own magic-mart", the DM is probably going to respond badly, and either ban this or do nasty things to your cohort and/or items.

4) Have a little chat with Shax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). Eggshell grenades, aboleth mucus, and chaos flasks are dirt cheap and non-magical. The key is to them judiciously, and only when the DM has inadvertently thrown the party into a TPK. Over-use them, and the banhammer will come out.

5) "Infinite Money" tricks. There are several ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276626) to do this (ladders into poles, if need be), but this is sort of a "last resort" and should be a clear indication to the DM that the players are frustrated enough to permanently drive his campaign off the tracks. Once you have enough gold to pay for Candles of Invocation or planar binding/Efreeti wishes, you can just wish for the magic items you need. Buf if you get this far, then there's nothing really stopping you from going full Pun-Pun and just scrapping the campaign. But even worse than that, you're unlikely to convince the DM that it was his campaign philosophy at fault to begin with, because you have now "proven" to him that "too much magic" ruins the game.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If your GM thinks you're the most powerful character in the party, then you had better make sure you are the most powerful character in the party (even if it's only temporary).

Step 1: Grab your party's wizard by his pointy elven ears.

Step 2: Shake vigorously.

Step 3: Demand that he spend at least half his combat rounds casting buff spells on you. (Preferably the first two or three rounds of any encounter.)

Anyways, your party's wizard has access to a lot of things that duplicate magic items. Things like magic weapon, greater magic weapon, bull's strength, haste, polymorph, keen edge, stoneskin, and enlarge person. Explain to your party's wizard that any of these spells will help you do more bonus damage over four combat rounds than any equivalent evocation spell.

Also show your wizard the Batman Wizard guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002). tl;dr: Buff spells are damage-over-time spells that outpace direct damage after only 3 rounds, and they bypass saving throws and usually bypass magic resistance. Debuff spells let you neutralize any threat that could one-shot a party member.

You're in a campaign with few magic items. That means that your party's casters have the obligation to pick up the slack, because you can't. If they refuse to buff you with the necessary magicks needed to go toe-to-toe with CR 10 monsters, then it's perfectly reasonable to demand that the cleric and wizard fight in melee while you sit back and poke things with your composite longbow. You can approach this problem from both a player and character standpoint, so be polite about it.

Also, you mentioned DR. Unless it's DR /magic (in which case it's your wizard's fault for not casting magic weapon) or DR /good (cleric's fault) that's a serious problem. Tell your GM that he can't expect the party to fight monsters with DR if you can't get access to adamantine, cold iron, and silver weapons. Also, if you still have to fight something you can't do anything to, then convince your party's wizard to polymorph you into something with lots of tentacles and then grapple it until the wizard blasts it to death. You might also be able to get your wizard to cast flame arrow on you so you can use backup composite longbow to penetrate DR (and researching a flame sword equivalent would be a really good idea).

I also recommend you invest cross-class ranks in a social skill (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive). Your non-combat abilities will be lackluster compared to your wizard's enchantment spells, but nothing can save your bacon like a good Bluff check at the right time.

[DMVerdandi]

Well, maybe if you thought about it, you wouldn't be so dang selfish.

In a low magic item world, casters don't have Wands, Staves, Scrolls, Schema, Rings, Wonderous Items, tomes, or any of the good stuff.
You can't even rightly use half of it. They lost more than you did.

You are upset because butt-naked, they are fine. (At least with a couple of feats and acfs, all of them are.) You on the other hand are reduced to doing 1d3 damage.(without unarmed feat investment, ignore if ignored).

Instead of drinking all that hatorade, you should be happy they agreed to that crippling low magic setting where the only magic in the world seems to rest inside them. They are brave for relying on themselves, while you disgustingly beg for everything they have sacrificed in the name of fun times. You prostrate yourself shamefully before their magical virtue.


JK.
:smalltongue:

I would say definitely look into alternative ways to improve yourself. If you are honestly playing as a warblade, and having a difficult time, why not change your alignment and play an Ur-Priest. Perhaps you have a revelation that you just can't cut it so you go away for a weak or so, and learn how to steal divine magic.

It's a short class, and is pretty damn decent. Mix it in with ruby knight vindicator for MAXIMUM HELL KNIGHT. If you enter properly, you will spend maybe one level away from warblade into ur-priest, and then transfering into RKV.

And that is if you even decide to go that route. Remember that prestige classes also increase your initiator level as well. People forget that alot. It never stops increasing.

Hell a 10 warblade/ 10 Ur-priest is still technically a damn good fit. Pick up things like smiting spell, and simply use your divine spells as a means to increasing your damage. All you gotta do is roleplay it cool. If you think spells are unmanly, you already lost the game, son. It isn't seidr.
That is the worst player stereotype, about doing things with muscles all the time. If creatures naturally have the capability to cast spells, what is wrong with them doing so? It's like demanding that you pee sitting down, if you can do it standing up. Retarded.

Anyway, the first half of the post was for the lulz. Good luck with the game.
No magic items is hard if you are trying to play a certain kind of dude. Sadly they didn't come out with a better martial incarnum character. Soulborn is g'arbage

[Tvtyrant]

Dungeoncrasher Goliath Fighter 6/Goliath Substitution Barbarian 1/Warhulk 3-10 with a wings graft and the Extra Rage feat. You are impossibly strong, you don't need magic items to be good in melee (8d6 + 3x str damage when you bullrush the enemy into the ground.)

You can still bullrush into walls too, so if you cannot get the graft you are not entirely screwed. And you can think while not raging, as you lose the benefits of your Warhulk levels until you rage. You are basically an unarmed fighter type who simply uses walls as your fists.

[Hecuba]

You have 4 basic options.

Lie back and think of England
Try to convince the DM he is wrong (this is left as an exercise to the poster)
Try to find options which meet the DM's intent and allow you to remain useful.
Choose build options works around the restriction.


For 3, your basic options are Legacy Weapon, Ancestral Weapon, etc.

For option 4, you have to paths: reduced dependence on weapons (ex: Druid, Totemist, etc) or builds that replace items/features thereof (ex. Soulknife, Shadowsmith, Pyrokeneticist).

The first options are generally better, but do consider the later options. You're hitting on of the rare situation where taking them isn't an outright bad idea.

Sadly, these focus primarily on weapons. You'll have to look for another route for stat boosts, flight, and the like.

[Darth Stabber]

As stated, there are ways to make things work, just take careful stock of what melee usually buys with WBL, other than stats. Flight is the obvious sticking point, but there ae several others, especially defenses. You need to pick a class that not only hits hard, but has utility. Totemist has access to almost everything you want, hits like a ton of bricks, and has style and panache to spare. Dipping a level of incarnate (or two) can open that can of options up really wide (with some variance based on how you GM allows you mix chakra binds provided by different classes).

Druid also does everything, but is also a spellcaster. When people say melee in contexts like this they tend to mean non-caster, non-skillmonkey, thus ruling out druid. But druid is a melee caster, he belongs in the thick of things with his claw soaked in the blood of his enemies. To that end i would say he's better at what gishes than most "true" gishes (much like his brother cleric). So if you want to melee efficaciously druidzilla it up. Druid does just fine with few magic items, you'll miss the wands and scrolls, but you can do well without them. Just remind your party that you are the attack dog (perhaps literally), not the healbot.

And if at all possible pickup VoP, this is the type of situation where it's good. All of the crap that it catches for being terrible only holds true when compared to wbl, in the absence (or low availability) of magic items you can only compare it to other feats, and by that comparison it rocks

[Metahuman1]

Bot you and the rouge: Use retraining rules.

For the rouge: Have him dip a level of sword sage. Maybe have him pick up Shadow Blade strike or 3 levels of swashbuckler if his int is good.

For both of you, invest in some unarmed feats and if either of you happened to have TWF feats, pick up a natural weapon, a slam attack form fist of the forest or a soul meld from a dip into an incarnum class or something. Otherwise, there's a feat in one of the forgotten realms books that let's you do 1.5 times str damage that I think works in conjunction with strike maneuvers. If either of you is a reach user, willing deformity: Tall and I think there was another deformity feat that further increased your reach.

For you, a level or two of Psi warrior would be worth thinking about. Expansion and enough PP to keep it up for all your combats could be a meaningful boon indeed.

As would a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for both of you, more so if neither of you is using maneuvers that require you to use skills that shut down when raging, cause then you can pick up some goodies form rage or an afc. Berserk Strength might be useful here since you only need to loose 5 hp to set it off, and it works endlessly with out costing you anything.

The acquire Stance: Martial Spirit feat might be good, since it gives you some healing as well. And when your too close to the -5 margin you can swap stances.

Then both of you Dip Kensai for 1-2 levels to get +1 to all your natural attacks and unarmed strikes so that you can bypass DR/ Magic.


Now, having changed your builds to accommodate the DM's play style, point out that you had to change the builds form what you originally wanted to play to something that works with the way he want's to play, and in exchange, you expect him not to be petty and keep Monsters with Alignment based DR, insurmountable DR, DR/Epic, Metal based DR or other things that flat screw mundanes over like flight, which makes it impossible for you to hit them should be very, very, very rare indeed.

That way, you've sorta met him half way, you've made it so your characters shouldn't be useless and the remainder of your build should work for the most part as intended, and he can still make magic items super rare and powerful.

[captain fubar]

Try explaining to the DM that WBL is an a major aspect of the game balance and an imp might as well be a pit fiend if you have no way to overcome its DR, and no way to see through its invisibility SLA, and no recorse if it just decides to fly around throwing stuff from above your reach weapons range unless you specalise in archery and why would any one do that unless they where shure that a force bow would be avalible to keep a wind wall from shuting them down.

so nearly every chalenge that gets thrown at the players needs to be rewriten if he wants to continue with out magic items past the first few levels.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Why is everyone recommending that OP change to a different class? A high-level fighter with no gear can get by just fine if similarly high-level casters take the time to buff him.

[Harlot]

I just started out as a DM myself, and as I read it, your DM is repeating (well, making) EVERY SINGLE mistake I made. (Low level magic, dealing with wizards, unbalanced encounters and no magic items for the tanks.)

Please refer him to this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286736

Hopefully by reading it, he can improve.
Good luck!

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's unfortunate that your newb DM is making the classic newb mistake of eliminating magic -items- to create a "low magic world" instead of the magic -classes- that are the actual problem. (Though, all-in-all, the low-magic campaign is really -not- a newb friendly campaign model anyway.)

You can -try- to get him to understand that having magical gear comensurate with WBL is something the system expects and that not having it will completely destroy what little accuracy the CR system has but, if that doesn't work, then after about level 6 or so you'll have reached the point of "go gish or go home."

@ Thomar:

The reason people are suggesting a class change, or at least going gish, is that, even though the casters in the party -can- keep the beat-sticks bathed in the appropriate magic they'd normally get from gear, there's no guarantee that they -will- do so. The -certainty- of being able to do it yourself is inarguably better than the -probability- (which will, necessarily, vary from one player to another) of an ally doing it for you, even if the latter would be more efficient.

[Blackhawk748]

get a Fullblade from AEG, and proceed to Leaping Charge Power attack anything that moves, i did that with a non magical sword till lvl 12 and i was ok, as long as the DR isnt to high you should be ok, if its over 10, well you have an issue.

[Gavinfoxx]

A fullblade isn't 3.5 compatible; it' just a large bastard sword, and it kinda sucks. You want a Guisarme and Armor Spikes. Or possibly a greatsword. If you want a 3.5e 'bigger than a greatsword', look at a Jovar.

[Blackhawk748]

ive seen this argument, thats just its fluff, its a Two Handed Exotic weapon that has a strength prereq to use and it deals 2d8 slashing, ive used them before. Also a Jovar is freakin expensive and is basically a Keened Greatsword

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know they completely overhauled the weapon system between 3.0e and 3.5e, right?

[Blackhawk748]

yes i do, but its still fine when used as an Exotic weapon, hell its an Exotic weapon actually worth taking

[Gavinfoxx]

yes i do, but its still fine when used as an Exotic weapon, hell its an Exotic weapon actually worth taking

I'm saying it doesn't exist as a weapon at all, is the thing!

[Blackhawk748]

Most DMs ive played with still use the AEG, so if thats true for CRTwenty then he can probably use it

[Anthrowhale]

Surviving in a low magic (for you anyways) world seems like an interesting optimization challenge. For offense that overcomes significant defenses, I know about:

(1) The charger approach (discussed above) to clobber your way through DR/hps. Chargers tend to be fragile though.

(2) Master Thrower 5 (Complete Warrior) can convert all attacks into touch attacks. Paired with Power Throw, this is sufficiently potent to be threatening while being more survivable.

(3) Iajutsu Master 5 (Oriental Adventures) can crank out high damage with quickdraw against flat-footed opponents. It's less fragile than the charger, but you need to investigate all ways to achieve flat-footed. The skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel help with this.

(4) White Raven Tactics can be quite powerful, especially if many people in the party have it.

For defense, the Diamond Mind Concentration-instead-of-save maneuvers can help substantially as can Iron Heart Surge. Another effective design is changing your class every level to maximize saves.

AC is generally more difficult to optimize. The best nonmagical approach I've seen is improved combat expertise + Mithril armor, and even then it's often not enough.

Common problems are:
(1) Incorporeal creatures. (Serren Wood from Exalted Deeds?)
(2) Energy Drain. (The poorly worded Font of Life feat from Heroes of Horror?)
(3) Ability Drain/Damage. ?High enough AC/Saves?
(4) Invisibility/Illusions. ??

[ericgrau]

Mostly I'd talk to the DM. This is really a low melee world b/c that's who he's really boning.

Failing that, start replacing your attack rolls, saves and AC with skill checks or other checks using the right maneuvers. There may be X to Y feats to try too. Replace damage with damage from maneuvers if possible. Overcome DR with mountain hammer. Etc.

Otherwise reroll as a caster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One possible option for enemies with DR (and just for being generally useful for breaking things) is the shards of granite tactical feat. Yeah, it hurts your accuracy, but it also bypasses DR and gives you a buffer of 10 temp' HP's per round to help keep you alive.