Should playing a monster intelligently increase its CR?

[Tvtyrant]

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292266)thread. I am of the opinion that is should not; CR is based on stats and abilities of a creature and if it has an intelligence of +20 then it should be making multiple backup plans almost instinctively.

[ryu]

Here's the thing: CR is a wonky system based on the power level of a given party they should be able to effectively challenge. If you don't believe this is a wonky, inaccurate system with multiple creatures laughably stronger or weaker than advertised ANYWAY you have to ask yourself if wotc intended for the added challenge of intelligence when making the CR number. Ultimately I'd say probably not because look at how well thought out their int-based sample wizards are.

[Urpriest]

In my opinion, difficulty in general should rarely have an effect on CR. CR governs XP gain, treasure gain, and serves as a loose benchmark for the appropriate level for PCs to fight a given monster based on where their numbers will be at that level. None of those necessarily have anything to do with how hard the monster is to fight. A very tough monster and a very easy monster should both have the same CR if they're both designed to be fought at the same level.

[ArcturusV]

It's such a touchy subject, needing a lot of finesse to work in. It's gotten to the point that, when building adventures I pretty much ignore the CR anyway (If I know the party layout) and just pull based off a reasonable guess of what they are going to be able and willing to face.

But for the most part... I find that PCs are not tactical. Even higher optimization players aren't really tactical players. Particularly when I face "Guide Players" who build characters based on online builds and handbooks without really understanding it. Point being that since they aren't tactical, they tend to brute force out victories.

I mean we all know the problem with Kobolds, at even 1/3 CR, if the Kobolds are played at all reasonably, and not just mindless MMO "rush and attack until I die" standards, they can be a huge pain in the ass to deal with. Even for creatures much higher in level than them. Especially on their home turf.

But in the end, if you get a "Smart" enemy to fight your fight, and do things the way you want them to happen... the fight isn't going to be any tougher at all. Might even be easier as they will run the hell away at half HP rather than drag it out. Even if you can't get the Smart enemy to fight your fight... once you get them cornered or deal with their advantages, it's not like they're really any tougher to face either.

[Tvtyrant]

If I could give a real game example; I have an Aboleth that is besieging a city by enslaving individuals in the city and having them convince their leaders to come meet it (not telling them it is an Aboleth.) It then enslaves the leader and uses them to take control of substantial portions of the city as part of its all encompassing goal of having a child (Aboleths are all but extinct in this world.)

The Aboleth lives in a large "building" on the edge of the docks, which consists of three encompassing walls and a metric ton of illusionary walls. The inside is a bunch of dock decks with illusionary walls covering the gaps between them, through which the Aboleth watches individuals who enter. If they seem a threat it summons the Skum which it has been making out of the cities homeless population to fight them, and if they prove stronger than that it grabs them from within one of the illusionary walls when they are most vulnerable.

I don't think any of this is above the intelligence grade of an Aboleth (and probably below it, as I could come up with it.)

[Urpriest]

If I could give a real game example; I have an Aboleth that is besieging a city by enslaving individuals in the city and having them convince their leaders to come meet it (not telling them it is an Aboleth.) It then enslaves the leader and uses them to take control of substantial portions of the city as part of its all encompassing goal of having a child (Aboleths are all but extinct in this world.)

The Aboleth lives in a large "building" on the edge of the docks, which consists of three encompassing walls and a metric ton of illusionary walls. The inside is a bunch of dock decks with illusionary walls covering the gaps between them, through which the Aboleth watches individuals who enter. If they seem a threat it summons the Skum which it has been making out of the cities homeless population to fight them, and if they prove stronger than that it grabs them from within one of the illusionary walls when they are most vulnerable.

I don't think any of this is above the intelligence grade of an Aboleth (and probably below it, as I could come up with it.)

That seems like pretty basic Aboleth tactics, really. Every published Aboleth encounter I've seen has a lair slathered in illusions and tries to get its foes to fall into the water. They generally aren't given higher CRs than normal.

[Tvtyrant]

That seems like pretty basic Aboleth tactics, really. Every published Aboleth encounter I've seen has a lair slathered in illusions and tries to get its foes to fall into the water. They generally aren't given higher CRs than normal.

That is how I feel about it too. Although at 40,000 years old I made sure it had a number of really well thought out exit strategies (enslaved child hostages for one.)

[Zanos]

The DMG does mention that certain circumstances justify increasing the effective level of the encounter, and gives the example of orcs dropping rocks from hanggliders vs. just charging with spears. An aboleth's at will psionics justify it's CR by itself in my opinion.

I'd just eyeball how the encounter goes.

[Kudaku]

You'd think orcs in hang gliders loaded with rocks would lower the CR, not raise it :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

No. If anything, playing a monster with supposedly superhuman intellect like a dumb bruiser should lower CR.
If you're lucky your players start playing smart themselves once they encounter a few of these enemies.
If you're slightly less lucky you'll have to point out that charge & smash tactics are going to get them killed and they improve.

If your players aren't interested in tactical combat and just want to smash their way through your campaign
you can either accomodate them or find another group if that's not how you want to run encounters.
The two styles rarely mesh.

[TuggyNE]

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292266)thread. I am of the opinion that is should not; CR is based on stats and abilities of a creature and if it has an intelligence of +20 then it should be making multiple backup plans almost instinctively.

There's a difference between playing a monster to its intelligence (which should be assumed) and playing a monster to maximum optimization (which should not, and should raise the CR). In the case of an aboleth or great wyrm dragon, it's kind of hard to imagine tactics beyond their usual, but those do exist, in the form of various TO tactics. In the case of, say, kobolds, it's not as hard to determine the difference between regular trap-heavy tactics and absurd use of dust of sneezing and choking, diplomancy for minions, and so forth. And in the case of wolves, anything more complicated than tripping, flanking, and focus fire is out of line.

The rule of thumb I suggested earlier was, essentially, "Figure out the difficulty if the monster uses tactics it normally would, then figure out the difficulty if it uses your new and improved tactics. If there's a substantial difference, bump the CR, because you're effectively applying the 'tactical genius' template."

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm. I tend to modify CR based on conditions because I think the current setup is whack. Should I reconsider?

I just ran a level 2 NPC with fairly minor optimization against a party of five level 3 PCs. I also spent all of that NPC's wealth on poisons and alchemical items, and had her stalk the party, poison them from afar, and harry them with nets and tanglefoot bags. There were also terrain issues in play (nothing serious, but some difficult terrain that prevented the PCs from just mobbing their lone opponent.) It ended up being a way more challenging encounter than CR would indicate.

I had planned on considering the whole thing a CR 3 encounter, although I suppose if they had spotted her poisoning their drinks it would have been far easier (minus the poison they would have been able to overwhelm her with numbers pretty easily). Do you think I should drop it to CR 2? That would mean barely any XP for this encounter, which was significantly harder than a CR 4 encounter earlier that they finished in a single round.

[Erik Vale]

The rule of thumb I suggested earlier was, essentially, "Figure out the difficulty if the monster uses tactics it normally would, then figure out the difficulty if it uses your new and improved tactics. If there's a substantial difference, bump the CR, because you're effectively applying the 'tactical genius' template."

I like that template. However it is very chaotic and much is left to chance.

However, do you mind if I sig that?

[TuggyNE]

Hmm. I tend to modify CR based on conditions because I think the current setup is whack. Should I reconsider?

I just ran a level 2 NPC with fairly minor optimization against a party of five level 3 PCs. I also spent all of that NPC's wealth on poisons and alchemical items, and had her stalk the party, poison them from afar, and harry them with nets and tanglefoot bags. There were also terrain issues in play (nothing serious, but some difficult terrain that prevented the PCs from just mobbing their lone opponent.) It ended up being a way more challenging encounter than CR would indicate.

I had planned on considering the whole thing a CR 3 encounter, although I suppose if they had spotted her poisoning their drinks it would have been far easier (minus the poison they would have been able to overwhelm her with numbers pretty easily). Do you think I should drop it to CR 2? That would mean barely any XP for this encounter, which was significantly harder than a CR 4 encounter earlier that they finished in a single round.

Not sure who you were asking, but I'll answer to my best ability anyway. I wouldn't consider "nothing but consumable gear" baseline optimization; one-use items are a lot more powerful if you know there's never going to be any need for items after one encounter anyway. So yeah, that's a CR bump, most likely.


I like that template. However it is very chaotic and much is left to chance.

True; it's just an outline of the sort of DM judgement you need, based on general principles and not a whole lot of experience running games. :smallwink: (It could probably be explained a lot better and more precisely.)


However, do you mind if I sig that?

I'd be honored!

[lsfreak]

I like that template. However it is very chaotic and much is left to chance.

Given how scattered CR itself is, I don't feel this is particularly out of line though. A single CR+4 encounter may be less difficult than a CR-2, because the CR+4 is a single brute with no special abilities while the CR-2 is a swarm of spellcasters with no-save spells.

[Lord Vukodlak]

When thinking about a CR of a creature is good to keep in mind that many of these things show up on random encounter tables.

The Aboleth that has spent years preparing its defense in the city's warehouse should have a higher CR then the one that shows up on the random encounter table. One has had a few rounds to prepare its defenses the other has had months.

[ericgrau]

Unusual circumstances should raise the CR. Normal circumstances should not. So it depends. You shouldn't play monsters stupidly by default and even int 2 wolves have pack tactics. But if the monster was able to put together a special plan or trap that it might not always be able to then that should increase the CR.

[EyethatBinds]

I reward my players for good tactics with victory. Their punishment for bad tactics is their untimely deaths at the hands of my much more organized NPCs. No real need to increase CR for clever tactics. What wizard wouldn't use major image to make a large rust monster look like a Bulette? Does that make the CR of the fight against the Rust Monster higher? Sure, maybe one higher.

But anyone who expects your game to be completely straightforward is pretty much gambling with their character sheet anyhow.

[prufock]

CR is a guide for what encounters are appropriate for a given level. The DMG states that an appropriate-CR encounter should use up about 1/4 the party's resources (HP, spells, consumable items). If, by tactics or circumstances, the encounter uses up a lot more than that, it probably justifies awarding additional xp as if the encounter were a higher CR.

[Scow2]

When thinking about a CR of a creature is good to keep in mind that many of these things show up on random encounter tables.

The Aboleth that has spent years preparing its defense in the city's warehouse should have a higher CR then the one that shows up on the random encounter table. One has had a few rounds to prepare its defenses the other has had months.

An Aboleth that shows up on a Random Encounter table has been around just as long as one who was made as a setpiece. The world/party/DM just happened to learn about him when his number came up on the RET. If he's a "Wilderness" encounter, shape the immediate vicinity as the Aboleth would need it to be (Perhaps they stumble across a submerged temple?)

[Telok]

What CR should six level 5 fighters be for five level 10 PCs (slightly overgeared)? About a CR 10 for a CR 11 party? This fight took my players a good 15 rounds to win and about half of thier daily resources.

The fighters had
Equipment: chain shirts, tower shields, short swords, long spears, and long bows. No masterwork gear, no alchemy, and no magic.
Feats: Improved Shield Mate, Weapon Focus Longbow/Longspear, Phalanx Fighting, and Rapid Shot.

They backed into a 10 foot wide hallway and the front two guys pulled the tower shields and swords and went full defence (low 30s ac). The second row pulled out long spears to attack and the third row started firing the long bows.

One thing in the NPCs favor was that the sorcerer had blown all her spells (except cantrips) wiping out most of a tribe of formerly peaceful goblins. Another was that the artificer didn't think the encounter was important enough to waste infusions or items on. But the psychic warrior had full power points and the ninja had full ki. Everyone but the sorceress was at full hit points (she hit herself with her own fireball).

[Lord Vukodlak]

An Aboleth that shows up on a Random Encounter table has been around just as long as one who was made as a setpiece.
The set piece's defenses are planned out over hours, the random encounter's defenses are planned out in fifteen seconds which makes for a world of difference. What Tvtyrant described for his setpiece's defense is far more elaborate then what would come up if the encounter occurred randomly.