Monster Class Gestalt

[Perpetr8r]

Can you do that, for example can you use Doppelganger, Centaur, etc who has a monster class progression into the gestalt formula since they are called Monster 'Classes' so I was curious. I have someone asking about a Centaur character because he is big on the mythology of the creatures but wants to play a Ranger or something like a guardian of the forest, etc.

So I was curious how that would work and how would it work into a group who is either straight races with Gestalt builds or straight classes and races.

[Rebel7284]

Can you do that, for example can you use Doppelganger, Centaur, etc who has a monster class progression into the gestalt formula since they are called Monster 'Classes' so I was curious. I have someone asking about a Centaur character because he is big on the mythology of the creatures but wants to play a Ranger or something like a guardian of the forest, etc.

So I was curious how that would work and how would it work into a group who is either straight races with Gestalt builds or straight classes and races.

This is not defined in gestalt.

A common, and fairly powerful solution is to count the LA and RHD on one side of the gestalt. Cutting the LA in half is something I have seen as well.

[Perpetr8r]

As far as I can tell they do not exclude Monster Classes and the builds for Monster Classes do have level progression from lvl 1 to whatever the LA ends up at (counting the LA and the RHD) so like with Centaur the have +2 and the 4 HD so a total of six. So starting at lvl 1 it would be like Centaur1/Ranger1 and as they progress they unlock the racial stuff at each level.

How would anyone else handle this, would they choose to go with the RDH over the Class (d8 for Centaur) and maybe the BAB and SAVES from the race over the class till the Racial progression is done?
So at Centaur6/Ranger7 (7th level character) would get the 7th level Ranger BAB and SAVES and adding the rangers Hit Dice?

[karkus]

I'd say yes. If you've ever read Savage Species, you'd get that monsters are classes also. A Mind Flayer is a 15th-level character already, so with a gestalt build, you can have 15 "real" levels.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok lets use Mindflayer since it was brought up. This is how I would do it, tell me if it sounds legit or how we could change it around.
Mindflayer
Mindlfayer Monster Class lvl 1/Psion lvl1
You use the 1d8 per level for HP the 1d8 coming from the Mindflayer
The 2+Int from Mindflayer each level.
As for saves the character gains +2 to Willsaves from Mindflayer Using the save bonuses of Fort and Reflex (if any) from Psion.
BAB comes from Mindflayer till we run its course (I would suggest only as many levels as there are HD racially (So 8))

[Darth Stabber]

The way I handle it is to use the monster progression (where available) as one "side" of the gestalt. A pixie wizard//factotum, for example, might look like this: la4/factotum6//wizard 10. It works fairly well. For mosters without premade monster progression, but below starting level, just let them take their ECL as levels in an imaginary monsterous progression. For thos greater you either have to come up with a monsterous progression or disallow it.

[Perpetr8r]

How is how I wrote it not that?
I meant it as the Monster Class as half of the Gestalt class, but rather then taking the 'Best' from each side it takes a lot more from the Monster Class to serve as a way to keep it more as a restriction as a normal class would likely go beyond these weaknesses. In this case though it would be a benefit, 1d8 for Mindflayer rather then the 1d4 of the psion and their skills are the same.
Actually the two seem to be very close as Psion level 1 only has a +2 to Will and no other +s

[Darth Stabber]

How is how I wrote it not that?
I meant it as the Monster Class as half of the Gestalt class, but rather then taking the 'Best' from each side it takes a lot more from the Monster Class to serve as a way to keep it more as a restriction as a normal class would likely go beyond these weaknesses. In this case though it would be a benefit, 1d8 for Mindflayer rather then the 1d4 of the psion and their skills are the same.
Actually the two seem to be very close as Psion level 1 only has a +2 to Will and no other +s

I got swordsage'd, but yeah, we basically said the same thing.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok so lets use the Centaur list as an example. For clear reference.
4 Hit Dice (Racial)
A +2 LA (Making a total Level Progression of 6)
So if we remove the two empty levels, the La who provide no Int boost or Hit Dice to make working classes on the same style as other classed such as Bard.
What should we do with the special benefits of those levels? In the Centaur's case its the races +bonuses to Natural Armor, their speed increase (50ft) as well as +4 Str and +4 Con would be lost. How would you handle this so that the race does not loose things like its speed and its natural armor and ability scores.

[Jack_Simth]

This is not defined in gestalt.

Correct, not defined.


A common, and fairly powerful solution is to count the LA and RHD on one side of the gestalt.
Also correct in that it's strong. You can even generally get a rough measure of how strong due to the Improving Monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/improvingMonsters.htm) section of the SRD. A Sorcerer-5 is theoretically a CR 5 opponent.

A Sorcerer-5//Ghost (LA+5) is functionally identical to a Sorcerer-5/Ghost (LA+5), which would be a CR 7 opponent.


Cutting the LA in half is something I have seen as well.I've seen that too, but only rarely.

[Darth Stabber]

Ok so lets use the Centaur list as an example. For clear reference.
4 Hit Dice (Racial)
A +2 LA (Making a total Level Progression of 6)
So if we remove the two empty levels, the La who provide no Int boost or Hit Dice to make working classes on the same style as other classed such as Bard.
What should we do with the special benefits of those levels? In the Centaur's case its the races +bonuses to Natural Armor, their speed increase (50ft) as well as +4 Str and +4 Con would be lost. How would you handle this so that the race does not loose things like its speed and its natural armor and ability scores.

That is simple, on those levels where you don't gain a HD (and the attandant saves, BAB, and skills) you only get the benefits of your other class. So if the non-HD levels of centaur are 3 and 6 you gain saves, hd, bab, and skills as though you were a non-gestalt bard on those levels.

[Dessembrae]

Ok so lets use the Centaur list as an example. For clear reference.
4 Hit Dice (Racial)
A +2 LA (Making a total Level Progression of 6)
So if we remove the two empty levels, the La who provide no Int boost or Hit Dice to make working classes on the same style as other classed such as Bard.
What should we do with the special benefits of those levels? In the Centaur's case its the races +bonuses to Natural Armor, their speed increase (50ft) as well as +4 Str and +4 Con would be lost. How would you handle this so that the race does not loose things like its speed and its natural armor and ability scores.

Here is an example of a gestalt progression using the Centaur's Monster Class from Savage Species.

Centaur HD/Bard
Centar HD/Bard
Centaur LA/Bard
Centaur HD/Bard
Centaur LA/Bard
Centaur HD/Bard


At any level on the "centaur" side where you gain a Hit Dice, use the better HD/skills/saves of the two sides, as normal in a gestalt game. In this case you'd be using the Centaur's HD and Fort save, but gain the Bard's skills/level and Reflex save.

At any level where you don't gain a HD on the "centaur" side, you gain all the benefits of the Bard HD.

You gain all other abilities, from both classes, including the centaur's stat adjustments, its hoof attacks, it's increase to Large size, etc. Ignore the "feat" listed in the table, it's only there to remind you that Centaurs don't gain a feat at 3rd level by virtue of not gaining a HD. Your gestalt centaur bard doesn't have to worry about that, because you still gained a HD at 3rd level.


I don't know why you would remove the centaur's level adjustment, it's there for a reason. Centaurs are Large, have kickass stats, and have a pretty sweet movement speed. You "lose" two levels to make up for this significant increase in power.