Help Filling a Role [3.5 FR]

[Tokuhara]

I talked to my DM, and he said I can change out my Dwarf crusader for an arcane character. Before I ask, here's the make-up of our party:

Goliath Spirit Lion Barbarian (Big Hammer go Smashy Smashy)
Half-Ogre Fighter (Halberd User)
Human Rogue (INT-Focused)
Human Cleric (healer)
Dwarf Monk (FoB-Focused)
Human Courtier (from Rokugan, a non-combatant class based on Social Skills, skinned as a Merchant/Diplomat)

I'm looking to be the Arcane lynchpin for the party while not overshadowing the party. We're currently in Waterdeep (though I'll be missing a session) and currently 5th level. We have melee monkeys and one damage mitigation, with a noncom who can debuff with in-combat skill checks (intimidate mostly, though some Bluff and some Diplomacy).

[Kazuel]

Just go wizard and pick some spells to buff and battlefield control. You can self moderate a T1 down for the group.

[Tokuhara]

Just go wizard and pick some spells to buff and battlefield control. You can self moderate a T1 down for the group.

Well, what sort of wizard should I build. I've read the guide, and there's so many options. I'm not even sure what kind of fluff is appropriate for this party. It's mostly good with a TN Courtier

[GreenETC]

As you said you want to switch out your Crusader, I'm assuming you don't want to be hitting people while you're casting spells. Do you want to be more Int focused or more Cha focused?

If you wanted to, you could run Wizard 5 with Spontaneous Divination, which is pretty nice if you want to be the arcanist, since you can easily trade out combat spells for information to help the party. Also, I'd recommend doing something to get 3rd level spells to get Haste, which will make your party destroy.

Also, considering your party make-up, an Elven Generalist Wizard is not half-bad, and would be different than the Human/Mountainfolk dynamic your party has going.

[Kazuel]

Well, what sort of wizard should I build. I've read the guide, and there's so many options. I'm not even sure what kind of fluff is appropriate for this party. It's mostly good with a TN Courtier

I don't have my books in front of me but you go something like Wiz 5/Guild Mage 10/XX 5.

Guild Mage (Wizard of the Arcane Order) greatly improves a wizards on the fly flexibility. That way it's easier to have just the right spell.

[Tokuhara]

@ GreenETC: Well, I was a Dwarf Crusader headed to dwarf paragon and all sorts of cheese, but since there were 5 melee monkeys and no arcane, I'll happily be "artillery." I had thought a Spellthief/Beguiler/Unseen Seer/Magical Trickster/Daggerspell Mage would be fun, it seems a bit too high-op for this group (especially since the party Rogue is looking to go 1-20)

@ Kazuel: Mage of the Arcane Order? Was that what you were referencing? because while it's winberries and awesomesauce, it's a bit of a slog to get to, and Cooperative Spell is a feat tax if ever there was one (the cleric only prepares Cure x Wounds and Bless), so I kind of need to be as flexible as possible to fill where the poor cleric cannot remotely cover.

[Kazuel]

Cooperative Spell is a feat tax but you can look at it 2 ways.

1. Wizards trying to be not OP can handle the tax.

Or

2. Would you take the feat if it were instead written exactly like the spell pool ability? To me it's worth it.


Now another option if you want OPTIONS without going over board would be a standard Wiz/cleric/mystic thuerg. Lots of options there.

[GreenETC]

There are a few options you can use for versatility. You can always do the usual Elven Generalist Wizard, which is really nice and solid.

Another possibility is Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus with Practiced Spellcaster. This gives you a nice ton of spells and lets you specialize in something essentially for free, since you don't need Illusion or Enchantment, as Beguiler gives you their best spells for the most part. Versatile Spellcaster is good too, though you need to talk to your DM if he'll let you use spell slots from Beguiler to cast Wizard spells.

I've ran Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10 before, and it really lets you fool around with doing almost anything, and you practically never have to worry about running out of spells.

Do you actually want to deal damage, or do you want to buff the group or debuff the enemy?

[Tokuhara]

Well personally, Damage feels good. One of the players suggested Archivist/Wizard/MT as an option, though methinks he did the math wrong (Wizard 3/Archivist 3/MT 10).

Plus, on a Theurge, I have to gimp one casting side, and as an OCD Symmetrist (Everything that can be must be symmetrical), It'd drive me insane

[Spuddles]

I would recommend focused specialist transmuter. Almost half your spells/day will have to be transmutations, which means good things for your party members (and bad things for your enemies). Conjurers slow the game down, either with a bunch of summoned monsters of annoyance or stupid fog clouds of annoyance. Anything else won't really be that party friendly. AoE blasts can be helpful in weakening enemies for your friends with great cleave, and blasting is fun. Other than the handful of utility illusions, that school is mostly for cowards & gnomes. Necromancy has some of the best debuffs around, but every one looks at necromancers kinda funny. It's like wearing a gimp mask in public. Not that there's anything wrong with gimp masks- but some things you should keep in the bedroom/study, you know?

But just look at these transmutations:
Bull Strength
Enlarge Person
Slow
Haste
Keen Edge
Fly
Greater Magic Weapon
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
Rope Trick

and that's just Core!

[Grayson01]

Well if you want an Arcane Caster and don't wanna over shadow anyone. Try playing a Warlock if you have never played one before. You can ether go Debuffer, Blaster, or use the area effects spells like Hungry Darkness, Chilling Tenticals, Perilous Wall of Fire, or be an Item creater. Warlock can be a fun class if you are playing a Low OP game. Extra Invocation is always a great feat for one I once made one and every feat after 3rd was extra invocation.

[Tokuhara]

I would recommend focused specialist transmuter. Almost half your spells/day will have to be transmutations, which means good things for your party members (and bad things for your enemies). Conjurers slow the game down, either with a bunch of summoned monsters of annoyance or stupid fog clouds of annoyance. Anything else won't really be that party friendly. AoE blasts can be helpful in weakening enemies for your friends with great cleave, and blasting is fun. Other than the handful of utility illusions, that school is mostly for cowards & gnomes. Necromancy has some of the best debuffs around, but every one looks at necromancers kinda funny. It's like wearing a gimp mask in public. Not that there's anything wrong with gimp masks- but some things you should keep in the bedroom/study, you know?

But just look at these transmutations:
Bull Strength
Enlarge Person
Slow
Haste
Keen Edge
Fly
Greater Magic Weapon
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
Rope Trick

and that's just Core!

Transmuter. I know it's mechanically powerful, but it's never spoken to me. If you asked me to build a wizard when I started D&D, transmutation and Enchantment would've been my 2 drop-schools without a doubt. Plus, I've yet to find a PrC for Transmuter that says "Play A Transmuter!"

And Grayson: Tried Warlock. Hated it. Just wasn't fun

[Grayson01]

Transmuter.
And Grayson: Tried Warlock. Hated it. Just wasn't fun

Oh I am sorry to hear that didn't help. Warmage?

[GreenETC]

You could also go with some sort of Wizard with a Reserve Feat from Complete Mage. That way, you can damage stuff easily while also having plenty of spell slots for doing something else. The problem with having a huge focus on damage with your current party is the fact that you already have 5 melee monkeys, who's job it is to do damage. The arcanist is supposed to do more, like casting Fly or Haste to help turn a tough fight into a cakewalk, and with nobody else to dance the magic jig, you're going to get spread pretty thin sometimes.

Fiery Burst is the best one, but my personal favorite is Storm Bolt.

[Tokuhara]

Warmage just has yet to wow me. I'd have to fight the urge to run in with the barbarian and the fighter and smash faces (I have the word War in my job description), but if anyone can make a Warmage that feels Faerun-y enough to shame my former dwarf PC (and Arctic Earth Dwarf Crusader/Dwarf Paragon), I'd consider it.

But my big thing is I need a goal and concept of this character. I don't need a "I Kick Evil in the Balls for Fun" type. I actually like very flawed characters

[Spuddles]

I've yet to find a PrC for Transmuter that says "Play A Transmuter!"

Dude. Incantatrix.

[Tokuhara]

Dude. Incantatrix.

Dude. Abjuration.

[gorfnab]

Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 4

Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

[Tokuhara]

Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 4

Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

Huh... Both of those are clever....

Hmm....

Bamboo Spiritfolk Bard 3/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 6... Probably not.

And Gorf, I nearly accused you of cheating with the Knight of the Weave, but Spontaneous Divination sidesteps that pitfall. Half want to slap that on a Diviner and go Divine Oracle (I know Incantrix > Divine Oracle, but it's metamagic vs. spell variety)

[Spuddles]

Dude. Abjuration.

What about it? No one actually specializes in abjuration, except maybe Iot7FV looking to pick up some bonus feats via Master Specialist.

[Tokuhara]

What about it? No one actually specializes in abjuration, except maybe Iot7FV looking to pick up some bonus feats via Master Specialist.

Well, my DM is rather iffy on that PrC to begin with (using words like "overpowered" and "munchkin" to describe it), so I'm likely to avoid it.

However, Gorfnab came up with the Magus of the Weave, and something about it intrigues me. I might've found an interesting idea behind it:

Naenkrau Illumian Spontaneous UA Diviner 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Divine Oracle 4

what sort of feats/gear should I look into. Spells are the easy part for me. Toss Enchantment (I hate this school. a grand total of 1 spell worth a slot to me, thus disposable), use Improved Sigil (Krau) to buff my spells, extend to make buffs last longer, and grab Improved Initiative (a prerequisite for any dedicated caster) and get my hands on clothing with lots of pockets/potion holders/etc (think Skyrim's Thieves Guildmaster Armor) and look like a serious Wizard

[Kioras]

Go full long term artillary/battlefield control mix, that is quite different.

wizard 1 / warmage 1 / wizard 3 / ultimate-magus 10 / War Mage 5.

Grab Practiced spellcasting for warmage at level 3.

End up spell level 9 Warmage, spell level 18 Wizard

CL 17 Warmage, CL 22 Wizard

+3 damage on each dice for all spells.

Not as powerful as a lot of wizardry builds, but good for artillery. Can sac lower level spells for whatever metamagic feats you want to power too when casting.

Just use the lower level wizardry spells for control/debuff whatever you want.

[khachaturian]

seconding the bard/sublime chord build. (personally less familiar with the virtuoso, and sublime chord does have the restriction that once you start the prc, you have to take all 10 levels). given the number of beatsticks in your party, as well as the desire not to overshadow, you could optimize inspire courage- AND be a pretty powerful caster.

[kreenlover]

Dude
Illumian Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Whatever X

That MUST shout Transmuter to you. If not, then look up all the cheese that that can bring to the table without it looking like cheese.

I mean, for gods sake, you get to drop up to 4 buff spells on your allies with one Move action!

That:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0

[gorfnab]

and sublime chord does have the restriction that once you start the prc, you have to take all 10 levels).
Site your source for this please, since I'm not seeing that restriction listed in my copy of Complete Arcane.

[khachaturian]

Site your source for this please, since I'm not seeing that restriction listed in my copy of Complete Arcane.

i stand corrected. my error was using a web reference which had a feature called "bardic lock" which is definitely not in the complete arcane entry

[Fouredged Sword]

Doesn't FR have spellguard of the silvery moon?

Something like Grey Elven generalist Wizard 3 / Warweaver 5 / Spellguard of the silvery moon 4 / Uncanny trickster 3 (advancing warweaver) / Abjurant Champion 5.

Make the whole party silly buffed and laugh at monsters as you sip tea and read a book while your party kills everything.

Take arcane deciple (healing) to slip a few cure spells into your weave in case of emergency. Nothing like a swift action that sets off heal and 3 other 7th level buffs.

[Gwendol]

I second the bard/sublime chord/virtuoso suggestion. Or theurge druid/wizard.

[Tokuhara]

The Spellguard Weaver is clever, but something about War Weaver leaves me lukewarm

[Fouredged Sword]

It makes an odd spellcaster to play, very passive.

Very focused on buffing and BFC, you don't actualy have to DO that much. Be exalted enough to pull off luminous armor and set everyone's AC to no, haste, enlarge person, bulls strength or maybe a runestaff with divine power.

It can also wreck the CR your party is expected to handle.

Nothing like making your first round of combat render everyone flying, invisible (greater), and fast (haste) before you even get to casting a spell.

[Tokuhara]

So comparison time:

Spellguard Weaver of the Silvertmoon vs Magus of the Weave

ideally same race and same score spread, which gives the widest spread of spells and most options and most party buffs

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, they are both going to have access to the same wizard spells.

The main difference is that the weaver build gets to use some awesome action economy and makes all buffs under 7th level into mass versions with reach. It also gets all abjurations as swift actions. This makes buffing really fast. Also, you can make a 7 spell buffstack and drop it all at once.

Also, you can cast contingency on other people. There is lots of fun with that.

The knight of the weave build is looking like it gets better metamagic though. UM allows metamagic mitigation. I would be tempted to go for persistomancy maybe, if you are pulling 6th level spell slots on your knight of the weave casting.

Another thought - One could go wizard 3 / warweaver 5 / Legacy champion 7 / spellguard 4. This allows casting of 9th level personal range buffs into the weave. Shapechange for the whole party!

[Tokuhara]

Well as a note, I see the weaver getting the most out of Action Economy while the Magus gets a slightly wider breadth of spells (spells wizard usually can't get.

That said, both are very powerful. And Legacy Champ is banned

[Tokuhara]

Anyone else have any bright ideas?