"Do I recognize the language?"

[Hal]

Question for the peanut gallery:

Let's say the players overhear NPC chatter in a language they don't understand. They may want to know if they at least recognize the language. (I might not know Russian, for example, but I sure recognize it as Russian when I hear it.) How would you handle it? Skill check? Purely based on character/setting history? Thumb wrestling?

[Arkhosia]

Question for the peanut gallery:

Let's say the players overhear NPC chatter in a language they don't understand. They may want to know if they at least recognize the language. (I might not know Russian, for example, but I sure recognize it as Russian when I hear it.) How would you handle it? Skill check? Purely based on character/setting history? Thumb wrestling?
I'm going to use Goblin the example speech here.
I would set a hard DC for a insight check (it is people skills, after all), with a +5 bonus to a player's chrck if they have heard the language quite a bit while it was spoken by a race known for knowing it (and the PC saw the speaker speaking) (a player whose backstory of goblin-hunting would often hear their language, for example), or a +2 if the PC has heard it before a couple times instead of quite a few times (the rogue may have heard a goblin speaking his natural language once when he snuck past him).

[Dimers]

I'd ask for Insight but would allow Intelligence too. *shrug*

[Surrealistik]

Question for the peanut gallery:

Let's say the players overhear NPC chatter in a language they don't understand. They may want to know if they at least recognize the language. (I might not know Russian, for example, but I sure recognize it as Russian when I hear it.) How would you handle it? Skill check? Purely based on character/setting history? Thumb wrestling?

I'd put it down to a Perception (which encompasses all senses) or Intelligence check; whichever offers the higher modifier. I don't think Insight's applicable here as it's concerned more with 'reading' a person and gauging their motives/behaviour/sincerity/mental or emotional state.

[Tegu8788]

I'd consider throwing Diplomacy into the mix. The skill based around talking to people well, it would make sense. I'd also consider adding different bonuses, for background and what not. Also I'd have several DCs, "you know it's a monster language," "you recognize the general area the language is from," "you are pretty sure it's orcish," "it's orcish, for sure."

If you want minutia, I'd give a bonus to a character that already knows several languages. Or has killed a lot of those that would speak that language.

[NecroRebel]

I'd think any number of skills could be appropriate, depending on what language they were attempting to recognize. Religion might help identify Supernal, Abyssal, and Primordial, for instance, as those might be used in religious services, but wouldn't be much good for identifying Goblin.

You might also consider the possibility of somewhat-distinct, though mutually comprehensible, dialects that would be identifiable with a higher skill check, or even with a different skill check. As mentioned, Religion might be able to identify speech as Abyssal, but wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Abyssal spoken by a demon and that spoken by a Gnoll, while a Dungeoneering check might identify it as gnoll-speech (and whether a Dungeoneer knows gnoll-speech is Abyssal is a different story).



I'd probably mostly use knowledge skills for this, though.

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, related knowledge checks would work too, as could Streetwise, though Intelligence or Wisdom would be the ability mod in all cases.

[Adoendithas]

I'd say yes if another person in the party knows the language, Percption or plain WIS skill check otherwise.

[tcrudisi]

Question for the peanut gallery:

Let's say the players overhear NPC chatter in a language they don't understand. They may want to know if they at least recognize the language. (I might not know Russian, for example, but I sure recognize it as Russian when I hear it.) How would you handle it? Skill check? Purely based on character/setting history? Thumb wrestling?

I consider myself to be fairly world-traveled, but even I don't recognize Russian when I hear it. Sure, I'll recognize that its a Slavic language, but I have no idea which one.

I think it's more appropriate for them to recognize the alphabet. Meaning: Giant and Dwarf share the same alphabet, but that doesn't mean that someone who knows Giant will also know Dwarf. But - it certainly helps to know one when figuring out the other language. So if you hear a Slavic language, you might go, "That sounds Russian." "It's not - it's actually Medny Aleut." Would you know that, though? Would you really know if it was someone speaking Medny Aleut or Russian without knowing the languages in question? But you could probably recognize Medny Aleut as a derivative of Russian, sure.

And that's my point. People think they know languages when they hear them, but really, most people are just guessing based on the common language that sounds like it. I can almost guarantee that everyone in this thread would get the two mixed up (including myself, of course).

So the question becomes, how do you handle that with the PCs? Well, since Dwarf and Giant share an alphabet, they sound very similar. If you have a Dwarf in the party, they'll know its not actually Dwarvish. But if you don't, the thing I usually say is, "It sounds like it's the Dwarf alphabet." If they want to make a roll, I'll happily let them do Insight or whatever appropriate knowledge, like Dungeoneering or History. (I disagree with Surrealistik and Adoen that Perception applies. It doesn't - hearing it and figuring out what language it is are two very different things.)

[theNater]

I'd just plain say yes. There's only a handful of languages, and they're all presumably pretty different. Plus it means I never have to worry about what languages the PCs know; I tell them what language the NPCs are speaking in and they tell me if they know the language.

[NecroRebel]

So the question becomes, how do you handle that with the PCs? Well, since Dwarf and Giant share an alphabet, they sound very similar.

Yes, we all know that German and French sound very similar. Clearly, all languages that share an alphabet are closely related.

[tcrudisi]

Yes, we all know that German and French sound very similar. Clearly, all languages that share an alphabet are closely related.

German and Dutch sound similar. I've spent 6 months in the Netherlands and that's the only reason I can distinguish between the two.

[NecroRebel]

German and Dutch sound similar. I've spent 6 months in the Netherlands and that's the only reason I can distinguish between the two.

...I don't recall mentioning Dutch :smallconfused:

It's irrelevant if any two particular languages that share an alphabet sound similar. You implied that any two languages that share an alphabet must sound similar, and I offered a counterexample. My point was that a pair of languages that share an alphabet need not be particularly similar, or even from the same linguistic family (as French and German are not).

[Surrealistik]

If they want to make a roll, I'll happily let them do Insight or whatever appropriate knowledge, like Dungeoneering or History. (I disagree with Surrealistik and Adoen that Perception applies. It doesn't - hearing it and figuring out what language it is are two very different things.)

I favoured Perception as an option on the basis of hearing it well enough to immediately and intuitively place it per KISS rather than featuring two checks: one to hear it clearly enough to interpret (where it's not immediately recognizable), and the other to actually interpret; I mean if you want to make it a basic skill challenge, by all means. Defaulting to the Intelligence check (whether raw or knowledge based) would be my preference personally.

Insight conversely I don't understand; this is not what Insight does per the Rules Compendium definition. Insight might apply to forms of sign language and it could perhaps give you a bonus to placing a language, but in no way does it allow you to do so straight up.

[tcrudisi]

I favoured Perception as an option on the basis of hearing it well enough to immediately and intuitively place it per KISS rather than featuring two checks: one to hear it clearly enough to interpret (where it's not immediately recognizable), and the other to actually interpret; I mean if you want to make it a basic skill challenge, by all means. Defaulting to the Intelligence check (whether raw or knowledge based) would be my preference personally.

Insight conversely I don't understand; this is not what Insight does per the Rules Compendium definition. Insight might apply to forms of sign language and it could perhaps give you a bonus to placing a language, but in no way does it allow you to do so straight up.

Wow, we look at this from completely different perspectives.

Perception just helps with hearing it. I don't make my players roll to hear a casual conversation. I had a DM who did that once. I kid you not: roll Perception to see the city. THE CITY. No, thanks. If it's something that you can hear or see normally, why bother rolling?

Perception in this case is only to hear it. Since we are talking about understanding it, they've already heard it. So Perception is out.

I think Dungeoneering, History, and the other knowledge skills work the best. They are the most applicable, as learning about a creature includes learning about its language. If you've studied the creature, you've likely also studied the language to some degree. (Note: I use "creature" to include humans and elves.)

Insight is okay. Insight is about figuring out motive. Language is a large part of that. As such, if I'm being picky, I'd only allow it as a +2 bonus on whatever roll they do make. But really - I'd never be that picky. I tend to tell players what language the creatures are speaking in and go from there. I don't like to bog things down with a roll unless it's really important. I can imagine a time when I don't want to spoil the language just yet (like when the language itself is a clue that they need to research), but it's rare. Usually I just announce it and move on. The less rolling on trivial things, the better.

[Fecar]

Question for the peanut gallery:

Let's say the players overhear NPC chatter in a language they don't understand. They may want to know if they at least recognize the language. (I might not know Russian, for example, but I sure recognize it as Russian when I hear it.) How would you handle it? Skill check? Purely based on character/setting history? Thumb wrestling?

If knowing what they are speaking is not critical to the PC's mission(s) then I would simply say "Yes, you recognize it as ______".

If the PC's were doing a mystery/spy mission and were trying to track a group of NPC's or monsters so knowing what was being spoken was important, I would roll a d20 and would probably give the following:
The PC heard someone speak goblin
d20 roll:
1: You are pretty sure they are speaking [monstrous humanoid language other than goblin]
2-10: You are unable to tell what they are speaking
11-19: You are pretty sure they are speaking goblin
20: You know they are speaking goblin and you recognize the word _______ which means [something that may help the PC’s identify the goblins]

[Alejandro]

If the PCs need to recognize the language in order to advance the story, then a PC recognizes what is being spoken. If it doesn't matter, have them roll a dice and then tell them whatever. :)

[allonym]

Agreed with the advice of whatever works for your plot. If it's a clue in an investigation, well, that should be part of a skill challenge, or a mystery to be solved later. If it's not a big deal, or the lack of knowledge could impede the flow of the plot (or the players' mistaken belief that it matters is slowing things down), just say they know, perhaps with a token roll to establish it. Getting bogged down in the question of which skill it falls under won't help your game.

With regards the question of how easy it is to recognise a language one does not know, I'd caution strongly against using real world comparisons. Firstly, your own experience will be markedly different from any fantasy world (due to the high degree of population mobility, and the effects of modern media and the internet, and many other factors). Secondly, real world language is a very complex, and very skewed set of data, one difficult to accurately apply without linguistic expertise. Fantasy languages have always been a very different kettle of fish, especially in RPGs. Simplification and ease of comprehension are the order of the day.

[Surrealistik]

Perception just helps with hearing it. I don't make my players roll to hear a casual conversation. I had a DM who did that once. I kid you not: roll Perception to see the city. THE CITY. No, thanks. If it's something that you can hear or see normally, why bother rolling?

Perception in this case is only to hear it. Since we are talking about understanding it, they've already heard it. So Perception is out.

My reasoning so far as perception goes is that it allows for recognition of nuance and detail, intonations, sounds, syllable divisions, stresses, etc in the spoken language to such extent it becomes about instantly recognizable (that is of course, if the player has ever been acquainted with the language in question).


I think Dungeoneering, History, and the other knowledge skills work the best. They are the most applicable, as learning about a creature includes learning about its language. If you've studied the creature, you've likely also studied the language to some degree. (Note: I use "creature" to include humans and elves.)

Sure; like I said, Intelligence checks are my preference.


Insight is okay. Insight is about figuring out motive. Language is a large part of that. As such, if I'm being picky, I'd only allow it as a +2 bonus on whatever roll they do make. But really - I'd never be that picky. I tend to tell players what language the creatures are speaking in and go from there. I don't like to bog things down with a roll unless it's really important. I can imagine a time when I don't want to spoil the language just yet (like when the language itself is a clue that they need to research), but it's rare. Usually I just announce it and move on. The less rolling on trivial things, the better.

Insight makes less sense than Perception in my view. TBH I can't even begin to see Insight allowing someone to work out exactly what language is being spoken based on its official definition. You may be able to vaguely and intuitively deduce motive, but that doesn't in any way let you identify a spoken language even though it may help.

I hear you on avoiding bogdown, which is generally why I go the either/or route with Perception or an Int check where I feel like actually requiring any sort of roll in the first place for such a thing (which is almost never), but I just don't see Insight being viable as a placement skill.

[Ashdate]

I think there's more to speech than simple words (body language and particular inflections can play a huge part), so I could totally see using Insight in this scenario.

On the other hand, I think some sort of intelligence check would be ideal, if for no other reason than D&D has traditionally always tied the study of languages to the stat (and 4e is no exception).

So here would be my suggestion, if you really want to complicate things:

Players could make an relevant intelligence check (history being the default I would figure) to pick out some pieces of what someone is saying. Not speaking the language, your best bet is to pick out nouns (names and places mostly). The players won't know the context, but they might be able to use other information to get an idea of what those nouns mean in a larger context.

And one way to get that larger context would be an Insight check. Where was the goblin looking? What was his tone of voice? Was he pointing at particular place or other goblins, making any gestures, etc.? An Insight check won't allow any words to be understood, but a general context might be gleaned.

So as an example, the PCs are infiltrating a goblin warren, and are trying to find some prisoners within its vast tunnels and caverns. Hiding, they overhear two goblins talking as they walk by.

An intelligence check that beats a moderate DC lets the PCs know the goblins have mentioned something about "captives" and "guards". An insight check that beats a moderate DC lets the PCs know that the goblins appear weary and stiff; they look like they're going to take some R&R.

Deducting from both checks, the PCs guess that if they want to find the prisoners, their best bet is to head in the opposite direction of where those goblins are headed.

[Surrealistik]

Still not buying it. Accurate interpretation of body language, tone/posture and the like might help you identify language via their use and a vague sense of meaning gleaned from that, but it sure as hell doesn't straight up let you get a positive ID on a language.

This is doubly true if you have no line of sight to the speaker.

[Ashdate]

Still not buying it. Body language and accurate interpretation of tone/posture and the like might help you identify language and meaning, but it sure as hell doesn't straight up let you get a positive ID on a language.

This is doubly true if you have no line of sight to the speaker.

I never said an Insight check would identify a language, I said it would help (when coupled with some sort of intelligence check to identify parts of what is being spoken) puzzle out some meaning.

And I would agree that not being able to observe a speaker would make an Insight check difficult (either hard DC or impossible).

I suppose I will cop that puzzling meaning out of a foreign language was not what the OP was asking for however. I would likely just ask "does anyone speak __________?" rather than going through any hoops to identify what language it is. But to understand it, I don't mind using an Insight check for at least part of it.

[shamgar001]

I'd actually use History, but that's because I use it as a catch-alll for social studies. I think it definitely should be an INT skill, or perhaps just a straight INT check.

[Surrealistik]

@Ashdate: That's fair enough. I was more objecting to what seemed to be an agreement with the idea that Insight can by itself allow one to identify a language.

[Yakk]

I'd ask for an appropriate knowledge check. Streetwise, Arcana, Religion, History, Nature and Dungeoneering could all be appropriate, depending on the language and world.

You might even get different information. Streetwise might tell you a type of humanoid who you heard use a similar language. Religion might connect the language to a religion (it sounds like the holy words of the church of orcus), Arcana might connect it to a spell or ritual or kind of magic, etc.

[Hal]

Hm, thanks for all of the responses. I never expected this to garner so much attention. I will say I agree with some of the commenters, narrative before mechanics. That said, the situation in question in spoilers:

The party has been dealing off and on with a peaceful cult that worships a mountain spirit for the majority of the campaign. In the closing chapter, the cult has become violent, and the party suspects the mountain spirit they worship has been corrupted somehow.

The mountain spirit is actually the ghost of a long-dead primordial. The players are planning on meeting with contacts they have in the cult to try to find a solution. The question arose because the cultists' incantations are done in primordial. Now, my plan was to have the nature of the spirit come out at some point one way or the other, so this is not a critical moment. There will be other opportunities to learn this information. Still, it's not a commonly spoken language. Most would only have seen it in texts, if at all. It's certainly not a common scholarly pursuit in the culture.

I will probably ask for a religion check, or a harder history check, to recognize it.

[Yakk]

Arcana: One of the words sounds like part of your sphere of flame spell (or something similar). It is a word of power.

Religion: A successful check gives you either the cult's name, or at least what religious traditions it is based off of (primordial worship, similar to some other cult with properties X Y and Z.) Remember, ritual tends not to come from nowhere, but rather tends to be copied from somewhere.

History: A successful check means you recognize a phrase they use as being a phrase of primodial. Make it colourful or give it some sneaky meaning that is a hint.

[Adoendithas]

I consider myself to be fairly world-traveled, but even I don't recognize Russian when I hear it. Sure, I'll recognize that its a Slavic language, but I have no idea which one.

I think it's more appropriate for them to recognize the alphabet. Meaning: Giant and Dwarf share the same alphabet, but that doesn't mean that someone who knows Giant will also know Dwarf. But - it certainly helps to know one when figuring out the other language. So if you hear a Slavic language, you might go, "That sounds Russian." "It's not - it's actually Medny Aleut." Would you know that, though? Would you really know if it was someone speaking Medny Aleut or Russian without knowing the languages in question? But you could probably recognize Medny Aleut as a derivative of Russian, sure.

And that's my point. People think they know languages when they hear them, but really, most people are just guessing based on the common language that sounds like it. I can almost guarantee that everyone in this thread would get the two mixed up (including myself, of course).

So the question becomes, how do you handle that with the PCs? Well, since Dwarf and Giant share an alphabet, they sound very similar. If you have a Dwarf in the party, they'll know its not actually Dwarvish. But if you don't, the thing I usually say is, "It sounds like it's the Dwarf alphabet." If they want to make a roll, I'll happily let them do Insight or whatever appropriate knowledge, like Dungeoneering or History. (I disagree with Surrealistik and Adoen that Perception applies. It doesn't - hearing it and figuring out what language it is are two very different things.)

But remember that there's very little linguistic diversity in the D&D world. IIRC there are only twelve languages, nine of which are commonly used in the normal world. If I just pick nine fairly common real-world languages, say, English, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin, Swedish, and Inuktitut, once you've heard a few sentences spoken in each one they're fairly hard to confuse.

Which is why in my campaign I'm replacing this system with a more realistic one, with dialects (Mithrendain Elvish isn't quite the same as Astrazalian Elvish) and creoles (a Common-Elvish one is spoken at a fey crossing).

[tcrudisi]

But remember that there's very little linguistic diversity in the D&D world. IIRC there are only twelve languages, nine of which are commonly used in the normal world. If I just pick nine fairly common real-world languages, say, English, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Japanese, Mandarin, Swedish, and Inuktitut, once you've heard a few sentences spoken in each one they're fairly hard to confuse.

Which is why in my campaign I'm replacing this system with a more realistic one, with dialects (Mithrendain Elvish isn't quite the same as Astrazalian Elvish) and creoles (a Common-Elvish one is spoken at a fey crossing).

That number spikes up quickly if you use a campaign world like Forgotten Realms, where each nation has their own language.

[Arkhosia]

What I'd do for the "realistic languages" approach is take every single dnd language and use all of them with each having a dialect, and any languages that are not one of the original 12 are dialects of the first 9.

[Adoendithas]

That number spikes up quickly if you use a campaign world like Forgotten Realms, where each nation has their own language.

That makes more sense, I've never played in a Forgotten Realms game so I didn't know. How many would that be, then?