Races of Wild Question

[Noobborn]

I was searching through the Races of the Wild book and I found the Killoren race, they are Fey and are LA 0. They take a penalty to wielding Cold Iron and have the racial ability Manifest natures Might. This lets them each morning change to a different aspect of nature, Ancient, Destroyer, Hunter.

Also I found the Raptorans a race of flying humaniods with birdlike wings and abilities related to birds.

What classes either normal or Gestalt would work best with those?

Would either make good Dragonborns? Why?

What feats would bring out their best potential.

This would be for a lvl 1 new campaign built.

[Nettlekid]

Just a nitpick, this isn't so much a Races of the Wild question as a build advice question. I was expecting clarification on a creature's stats or abilities, or maybe something about some of the odd weapons in the book.

Anyway, I'll start with the easier question. Both of those races make pretty bad Dragonborn. The Killoren loses just about everything except its type. No longer will you have a penalty with Cold Iron, but you also lose the different Aspect Manifestations, and basically everything else. All you end up with is a draconian fey with +2 Con and -2 Dex. You might be able to abuse Alter Self a little, but Neraph is better for that. Killoren is pretty cool on its own, but don't go Dragonborn with it. Raptoran is almost the same, although technically you keep move speeds, so if you were a high enough level to have flight before becoming Dragonborn, you could have wings and also one of the other Dragonborn powers, not having to choose Wings. Some will say that you keep their ability to fly even if you change before you actually have it, so you can still fly when you level up, and I'm a bit unsure about that, but it's by no means game-breaking to say so. Still, it's just not a great payout. Dragonborn is best on a race with good ability scores and boring racial powers, not ones with no scores and interesting powers.

As for the Gestalt questions...Well, I think a Killoren Paladin or Crusader is pretty cool, like a warrior who fights for the right of nature. Since it has a racial Smite ability, taking a class like Paladin or Crusader which also gets Smite means you get double duty out of any Smite-boosting feats like Awesome Smite, or the ACF Charging Smite for the Paladin. Of course Druid is thematically appropriate for Killoren, and it's hard to mess up a Druid. Truthfully, their racial abilities are pretty cool on their own, but don't really lend themselves to any class too well, so basically just pick a good combination and sprinkle the Killoren on top. Maybe a Paladin//Druid, taking the Serenity feat to key Paladin abilities off of Wisdom only, to make a Wis-centered dynamo. Make it Venerable, because they don't die of old age (Do they take penalties to their physical stats even if they don't die of old age?) In any case, since you'll be fighting in Wild Shape form, those penalties won't matter. You could also go Crusader//Druid (or any Initiator//Druid) and use your maneuvers in Wild Shape form. That could end up being devastating.

Again, like the Killoren, Raptorans have useful racial powers that don't super benefit anyone. Probably stay away from caster classes, because they could just cast Fly and so it makes your main trick a bit useless. One big exception is Archivist, who can copy any divine spell into his spellbook. Raptorans have access to the Skypledged PrC, which works like a divine Mage of the Arcane Order, letting you call any divine spell (even Druid spells) to mind. And unlike Mage of the Arcane Order, it has no restriction on copying called spells into your spellbook. In short, it's a super easy way to get ALL divine spells into your spellbook. Perhaps a Factotum//Archivist combo, to use high Int to be a jack of all trades, very skillful, with powerful divine magic on your hands. I also quite like a melee class for Raptoran, because they can make diving charge attacks which do double damage with a piercing weapon. If you took martial classes and went into Bloodstorm Blade, you could do double-damage charges from the sky, throwing a spear or lance or something at a foe on the ground. In that case, Barbarian/Fighter//Warblade would probably be good, although there's a lot of overlap in the classes there, so maybe you could put that all on one side of the Gestalt (Barbarian/Fighter/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade//?) and put...I dunno, Psion or something on your other side. Or Factotum.

[Noobborn]

Alright I do apologize for the thread title. I didn't know what else to write.

Alright, thank you for the information. I do like the Killoren race.

I do have a question then, I am becoming a HUGE fan of the fluff for Dragonborn so what race would make a good base?

[Amphetryon]

Alright I do apologize for the thread title. I didn't know what else to write.

Alright, thank you for the information. I do like the Killoren race.

I do have a question then, I am becoming a HUGE fan of the fluff for Dragonborn so what race would make a good base?

Mongrelfolk, from Races of Destiny, is a good choice.

[Noobborn]

I googled it, wouldn't it make the ability scores +6 Con, -4 Charisma, -2 int, -2 Dex right? Wouldn't that hurt a lot of classes that might make use of those?
Wouldn't that limit your options of classes?

[jedipilot24]

Mongrelfolk, from Races of Destiny, is a good choice.

So are Aasimar; Lesser Aasimar if you can swing it. Draconic Lesser Aasimar is even better if you're allowed LA-Buyoff.

That's +2 Str, +4 Con, +4 Cha, +2 Wis, -2 Dex all for just LA+1; not a bad deal.

[Nettlekid]

I googled it, wouldn't it make the ability scores +6 Con, -4 Charisma, -2 int, -2 Dex right? Wouldn't that hurt a lot of classes that might make use of those?
Wouldn't that limit your options of classes?

It would, but since you're taking Dragonborn anyway and it gives you +2 Con and -2 Dex, you might as well take that Con all the way. Totemist and Dragonfire Adept are two classes that want sky-high Con, as much as they can get, and pretty much don't care about anything else. I played a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept, and it was great fun.

Alternatively, you could take it on a class like Elf or Spellscale with a +2 Whatever, -2 Con, so it balances out better. With Grey Elf you can get an Int bonus while avoiding a Con penalty, which is good for Wizards, Psions, Factotums, etc. Spellscales are similar, ending up with +2 Cha -2 Dex, great for Sorcerers (and you're Dragonblooded, which is also great for Sorcerers.)

[Grayson01]

Raptorian Scout works extramly well with teh diving charge and Scirmish damage and a Barb/Scout is a great mix. Improved Uncanny Dodge at 4th level, Improved Scirmich, Pounce so full attack when charging, the AC Boost from Scrimish to offset the Rage AC loss.

[Noobborn]

I thought Elf would negate out since it is -2 Con and+2 Dex which is the opposite of DB

Thanks for all the help

What race might make a more interesting story?

Could a race that is considered Monstrous Humaniod take it? Like Centaur or Briair(sp?) or something odd looking as a dragon.

[Nettlekid]

I thought Elf would negate out since it is -2 Con and+2 Dex which is the opposite of DB

Thanks for all the help

What race might make a more interesting story?

Could a race that is considered Monstrous Humaniod take it? Like Centaur or Briair(sp?) or something odd looking as a dragon.

There are variant Elves which have other stat boosts, but most have penalties to Con, which no character wants. Dragonborn Grey Elves will end up with +2 Int -2 Str, and Dragonborn Fire Elves end up with +2 Int -2 Cha. Both good for any Int-centric class. Really, it's good for any class that doesn't thrive on Dex (like a Rogue does), and good on any race which either has a Con bonus you want to max out, or a Con penalty you want to negate (because it has other good stats).

Only Humanoid races can become Dragonborn, no other. Your DM might allow Dragonborn Centaurs or whatever, but in the rules, that's not allowed.

And how should we know what makes an interesting backstory for your character? It's your character, you decide what's cool or not! I thought Mongrelfolk made a good race for it because a character who had been mocked for being disfigured his whole life was suddenly reborn with a noble draconic body. Spellscale also worked for me because a character who was teased for being scaly and freakish found comrades in true draconic warriors, and embraced his draconic heritage instead of shunning it. But do whatever you want.

[Noobborn]

Where does is specifically state that?
I mean I saw this part
"Each one enters the world as a half ling, an elf, a human, or
a member of some other humanoid race with all that
race’s propensities and traits."

And that is what I meant, the idea of a person being mocked for their appearance so taking this for more then just the honor or call to arms.

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Enters the world as a member of a humanoid race. Not Monstrous Humanoid, not Vermin, not Fey, not Aberration, not nothin' but Humanoid.

And like I said, pick for yourself. Any race could be the only one of its kind in a group of creatures unlike it, and teased for being different. Whatever you want to do, it can work.

[Noobborn]

It does not state the Humaniod type as a requirement for the change is all I mean. It just asks you to have an Intelligence of above 3 and be non-evil.
Prerequisites: In order to be accepted as a suitable
candidate, the supplicant must be non-evil and have an
Intelligence score of at least 3

Thank you so much for all the help sir.

[BowStreetRunner]

Not only do the rules include no racial requirement to become a dragonborn, the FAQ has already clarified that the one misleading entry in the dragonborn racial traits was an error. Follow the Mechanics of Rebirth on p.10 and you keep your original types and subtypes.

Things to look for in a good race of origin for a dragonborn character:

Racial types or subtypes that have beneficial mechanics. You get to keep these. For instance, a Warforged Dragonborn becomes a Construct (Living Construct, Dragonblood) with all of the Construct and Living Construct traits. Note that a race with the Aquatic subtype also retains the Aquatic traits, which means it cannot breath air without the amphibious special quality - however Dragonborn do not retain special qualities from the original class, so you will have to pick up amphibious after becoming Dragonborn.
Racial ability modifiers that combine well with the +2 CON, -2 DEX of the dragonborn. A Grey Elf Dragonborn ends up with net result of -2 STR, +2 INT, which is not bad for a INT-based caster.
Racial modes of movement like a fly, swim, or climb speed. You get to keep these in your new form. For instance, a Sea Kin Dragonborn would have a 30 ft land speed and a 30 ft swim speed, plus if you take the Wings aspect you will then gain a 30 ft fly speed.
Favored classes if you play with XP penalties and plan to multiclass, as you retain your original favored class and add fighter as well.
No Level Adjustment (or at least a very low LA), since you keep your LA and often lose many of the abilities that make the LA worthwhile.

[Psyren]

It would, but since you're taking Dragonborn anyway and it gives you +2 Con and -2 Dex, you might as well take that Con all the way. Totemist and Dragonfire Adept are two classes that want sky-high Con, as much as they can get, and pretty much don't care about anything else.

This is a very common mistake with Totemists - sure they like to have a lot of Con but typically if you're going over 20, 22 at the absolute most you're starting to waste it, and that's after items. 20 Con gets you 10 soulmelds, enough to fille all your slots.

Totemist save DCs tend to be weak and therefore not worth building around - this is because Incarnum save DCs use "essentia invested" in the calculation, which is generally very low compared to the calculation for a spell or supernatural ability's save DC, starting you out with a disadvantage. As a result, Incarnum is not that good at making a "pure caster"-style, save DC focused build. Your largest-capacity melds tend to be the ones on your totem, which typically grant more weapons rather than more abilities that force a saving throw. Another problem is that the abilities with DCs tend to be breath weapons, which have cooldowns limiting their effectiveness. Finally, soulmelds are SLAs, so SR and immunity are a problem for a "caster Totemist."

A Totemist is better off as a gish, using his abilities to gain attacks and for buffs like flight or concealment. Thus you still want a good Str score, and probably wouldn't mind Str being your strongest score either.

DFAs on the other hand can focus almost exclusively on Con.

[JaronK]

Dragonborn Water Orc makes a ton of sense... +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 all other stats, LA+0. You also get a swim speed. That's not too terrible at all, and turning Dragonborn removes their normal sensitivity to light.

Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold is also downright amazing, since they'd get the Dragon type and thus get lots of visual bonuses without losing too much of note (-1 Natural Armor, but again they lose sensitivity to light). You also get to be the most dragony dragon ever. From there, be a Sorcerer and focus on dragon spells (Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Alter Self, Hoard Gullet) and go to town.

JaronK

[Noobborn]

Very interesting, well following the Totemist talk I found a race with a very high Con at the expense of fairly High LA (+4) But it would have +8 Str, +8 Con, +2 Int, -2 Charisma.

Its called Stonechild, fairly interesting fluff being the odd one off child of a human and an elemental being, so no culture to be born into and almost always nomads for awhile.

But the Kobold idea sounds awesome, must go delve into the books to find out more on this.

[Chronos]

I would actually say that Raptorans are one of the better dragonborn choices, since the main thing that makes the race distinctive is something you keep. Though the absolute best is probably Warforged, since most of the goodies they get come from their type and subtype.

[Noobborn]

How does that work?
Would you be a regular dragonborn of that size and have metal seemingly fused into your organic body or do your scales take on a metallic hue or what?

[danzibr]

Very interesting, well following the Totemist talk I found a race with a very high Con at the expense of fairly High LA (+4) But it would have +8 Str, +8 Con, +2 Int, -2 Charisma.

Its called Stonechild, fairly interesting fluff being the odd one off child of a human and an elemental being, so no culture to be born into and almost always nomads for awhile.

But the Kobold idea sounds awesome, must go delve into the books to find out more on this.
Oh don't go Stonechild. I absolutely agree they're really cool, but mechanically they stink. They have 2 RHD on top of that massive LA for an ECL of +6. So when you have the potential to be a level 7 Totemist you're instead a level 1 Totemist with 2 RHD. Dreadful.

If you want some race suggestions for Totemist check my sig. I'm working on a handbook.

[BowStreetRunner]

How does that work?
Would you be a regular dragonborn of that size and have metal seemingly fused into your organic body or do your scales take on a metallic hue or what?

The FAQ actually deals with this specific example (Warforged Dragonborn). You get a Construct (Living Construct, Dragonblood) with the combined warforged and dragonborn ability score modifiers and both favored classes. He would retain the living construct traits (immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain; unable to heal damage naturally; vulnerable to metal or wood affecting spells; half effect from healing spells; inert at -1 to -9 hp; no need to eat, sleep, breathe). He would lose composite plating, light fortification and slam attack. Surprisingly, he would still be eligible for some feats that improve his composite plating, since they don't actually have composite plating as a prerequisite.

So it sounds like you lose your metallic body - or at least the composite plating.

[Noobborn]

I worked on a Homebrew version in the Homebrew boards that might be better. If that fails to impress my DM I think we have something worked out (I agree 2 RHD and 4 empty levels kill ya)


I was more asking about IC stuff, like would the scale shave a metallic hue because of the former metallic nature of the Warforged or would it be normal dragonborn brownish scales? I saw the FAQ thing on anything non-evil being dragonborn so that was good. And true enough the plating does say only Warforged which you still are.

Why does Natural Armor and Natural Attacks disappear though? I mean unless you lose the limb you where using the attack with why lose it? I mean slam is just from the arm and you still have an arm.

[BowStreetRunner]

Why does Natural Armor and Natural Attacks disappear though? I mean unless you lose the limb you where using the attack with why lose it? I mean slam is just from the arm and you still have an arm.

Humans have limbs too, but not natural attacks. I think the fluff reason is your limb no longer has the necessary structure to support a slam attack. The rules reason of course is the Mechanics of Rebirth entry says you lose these.

[Noobborn]

Ah true enough, so its one of those 'Shut up because we said so' things.

[danzibr]

Ah true enough, so its one of those 'Shut up because we said so' things.
Yeah and it's quite a pity. Lots of lost potential there.