Dealing with AC

[Arkturas]

What are some ways to deal with an opponent's AC? I know you can get Brilliant Weapon, and bypass armour/shield AC, or sunder them, but what about Natural Armour? I have yet to find any way around that.

[animewatcha]

destruction devotion.

[Amphetryon]

Touch attacks.

[avr]

Spells which use touch attack rolls, or spells which use saves rather than attack rolls. Or the odd spell which allows neither.

If you're a mundane, ToB gives you emerald razor to hit touch AC. Or you could just throw alchemists fire or something at them.

[Nettlekid]

What is your attack method? Wraithstrike takes care of almost all your problems if it's melee.

[eggynack]

You could always not. Depending on the character, there are a ton of attack methods that never even think about the opponent's AC. Most battlefield control spells don't directly interact with the opponent at all, and direct damage spells tend towards saves and touch AC. If you use diplomancy on the opponent, you don't care about the enemy's armor. Maybe you should give some details on your current build, because there are probably more types of attacks that don't care about AC than ones that do.

[ericgrau]

Generally I would say don't underestimate attack bonus optimization. For high optimization scenarios I think avr and Nettlekid hit the main ways. UMD a wand or dip to get wraithstrike.

[EyethatBinds]

Flanking, aid another actions, and dex damaging poisons seem to work. Or brilliant energy.

[Arkturas]

Should a little bit more specific. My bad.

What are some ways, in 3.5 and PF, for melee characters to deal with high AC enemies, high Natural armour ones in particular. It is more a question of curiosity, than anything else. I don't have any classes in mind in particular, though options that are widely available, and not linked to a class, would be preferable.

If there is a debuff spell avaible to counteract natural armour in particular, that would be great though.

[Nettlekid]

Not debuff for them, buff for you. Wraithstrike. Seriously. It does wonders. Just get a custom item, maybe like Bracers or something, for the low low price of either 10800 gold if you're okay with spending a swift action each turn you need it to activate it, or 48000 gold to have it on continuously. All your melee attacks are now touch attacks. Which disregard NA.

[Vaz]

Why not get a use activated True Strike added into it? It is after all only what, 2kgp?

[Galvin]

What is your attack method? Wraithstrike takes care of almost all your problems if it's melee.

The Wraithstrike spell allows you to hit the targets touch AC, however, natural armor applies to touch AC, so against Dragons and stuff with high natural armor wraithstrike will not solve all of your problems. But up against like a guy dressed in dwarven forged mountain plate it does wonders.

[Frog Dragon]

Natural Armor does not apply to touch AC. It can be turned into a deflection bonus (that does) with Scintillating Scales though.

[Galvin]

Natural Armor does not apply to touch AC. It can be turned into a deflection bonus (that does) with Scintillating Scales though.

My apologies, I could've sworn it does. I am changing my vote to Wraithstrike all the way to solve your AC penetrating needs.

[Segev]

Technically, a use-activated instant- or rounds-duration spell gets an x2 multiplier, so even the theoretical use-activated True Strike gauntlets would be at least 4,000 gp.

That said, True Strike explicitly gives a +20 insight bonus to hit. I believe there is a separate formula for bonuses-to-hit-granting magic items, and it scales quite ... shall we say "epically?" ... with the number it grants.

The best you'd be able to do is command-activated while still justifying it as "as the spell," which is mercifully 1800 gp, but is also going to cost you a round each time you use it. And it will only affect your next attack.

No, I take that back. You can do it one better to get your first attack each round so buffed: Make it intelligent, so it now can activate its own power using its own standard action. In Pathfinder, I believe that's only a +500 gp surcharge, for a total of 2300 gp. Really darned good for a practically-guaranteed first hit per round.

[Gwendol]

Trip your opponent and flank it. That will give you +2 to attack while the opponent takes a hit to AC.

[Splendor]

Chink in the Armor Feat - Song & Silence (remember that 3.0 feats that were not updated are still valid according to the rules). This feat allows you to take a standard action to study an opponent, on your next attack all armor & natural armor (not shields or magical bonuses) are halved.

Deft Strike Feat - Complete Adventure. Better than above but has more requirements.

Deep Impact Feat - Psionic feat. Allows attack to be resolved as touch attack.

If its actual metal armor - Rust Cubes (Complete Scoundrel). Destroys armor.

5th level master thrower (complete warrior) makes thrown attacks as touch attacks.

[Ravitiate]

You could also make a build that can cast Persistent Wraithstrike (Via Divine Metamagic or the like).

Master Thrower PrC can throw weapons as a ranged touch attack. Combine with Bloodstorm Blade for some crazy weapon throwing ignoring AC.

You could pick up the relativly cheap Heartseeker amulet (3000 gp, MIC) lets you make 3 touch attacks each day, activate as a swift action.

The Diamond mind LVL 2 maneuver Emerald Razor Blade lets you strike as a touch attack. Can be picked up by dipping a level in Warblade or Swordsage by level 5.

As mentioned above, you could pick up Deep Impact, typically on a Psychic Warrior-build.

You could also pick up a Wand with a spell (Such as Flame Blade (Druid2)). The cost of a wand is 750 * CL * Level of Spell. Flame Blade would be 4500 gp (750 * 3 * 2) for a 3 minute duration and 50 charges.

[Spuddles]

You could try cutting their power, or maybe just leaving a window or door open.

[Ravitiate]

You could try cutting their power, or maybe just leaving a window or door open.

Step 1: Be a class that can control the weather
Step 2: Create a drought
Step 3: Watch as power prices increase and people can't afford AC
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

[Krobar]

Another vote for Wraithstrike. That one's a game changer against high Natural Armor.

[Feytalist]

Chink in the Armor Feat - Song & Silence (remember that 3.0 feats that were not updated are still valid according to the rules). This feat allows you to take a standard action to study an opponent, on your next attack all armor & natural armor (not shields or magical bonuses) are halved.

There's a feat in either CSc or CA that does the same thing, only it makes the next attack a touch attack. Damned if I can remember its name, though.

[Karnith]

There's a feat in either CSc or CA that does the same thing, only it makes the next attack a touch attack. Damned if I can remember its name, though.
There's the Spot the Weak Point skill trick, which lets you make a Spot check against an opponent's AC (as a standard action) to make your next attack against that opponent as a touch attack.

There's also the Deft Strike feat in Complete Adventurer (as has been mentioned), which does something similar, though its prereqs stink.

[Psyren]

There's the Spot the Weak Point skill trick, which lets you make a Spot check against an opponent's AC (as a standard action) to make your next attack against that opponent as a touch attack.

Psychic Rogue with an active Schism and Psionic Trickster (psionic adaptation of Magical Trickster) can do this every round; they can spend 2 PP to refresh a skill trick, and Spot the Weak Point is a mental action so the Schism's standard can do it for you. Use move action to regain focus and apply (Greater) Psionic Weapon damage to the hit.

[ksbsnowowl]

There's a feat in either CSc or CA that does the same thing, only it makes the next attack a touch attack. Damned if I can remember its name, though.

That would be the next feat he listed, Deft Strike.

[Saintheart]

Emerald Razor, a maneuver from Tome of Battle. Makes your next single attack a touch attack.

[Feytalist]

That would be the next feat he listed, Deft Strike.

Aha. Perhaps I need to not skim next time.

[Venger]

What are some ways to deal with an opponent's AC? I know you can get Brilliant Weapon, and bypass armour/shield AC, or sunder them, but what about Natural Armour? I have yet to find any way around that.

wraithstrike's already been mentioned and is indeed the best way to get around AC (aside from just ignoring it with things that allow saves instead)

fracturing weapon from forge of war might also be worth looking at. it reduces an enemy's AC by 5 (also dr) so it'll make it easier for your allies to hit too, not just you.

[Rebel7284]

Step 1. Convince a friend to play an Incantatrix
Step 2. UMD Wraithstrike from an Eternal Wand or something.
Step 3. Your friend makes it last all day.

Repeat each morning.

[Eldariel]

Step 1. Convince a friend to play an Incantatrix
Step 2. UMD Wraithstrike from an Eternal Wand or something.
Step 3. Your friend makes it last all day.

Repeat each morning.

Or just be a caster yourself and do it without help...? :smalltongue:

[Feint's End]

Why not get a use activated True Strike added into it? It is after all only what, 2kgp?

at will/ use activated would be 4000 g (still ridiculous of course)

with no use limitation would be 1800 but that wouldn't be smart as you need to spend the action each round

[Dimers]

Also, any character class can take an initial psionic feat (Hidden Talent or ... um ... Wild Talent, I think?) in order to get a power point pool, then follow it up with other psionic feats that allow you to basically focus really really hard and make a touch attack. Number of times per day is limited only by how often you can focus really really hard -- typically, just once per two rounds, but it's possible to speed that up.

There are three feat chains, one each for ranged, unarmed, and melee weapon. Assuming you're not psionic to begin with (either racially or by class) and you only want one feat chain, it'll cost you three feats to get the ability.

Some people will more easily accept refluffing for these feats than for castings of wraithstrike. They require only concentration and time, not mumbo-jumbo or eye-of-newt or weird glowy auras.

[alchmst1259]

Really surprised to not see the Scale Weakening spell yet. Tier 2 sorc/wiz spell. The Draconomicon version is WAY better than the Spell Compendium one (same exact spell, but Draconomicon's tops out at 10 rather than 5).

Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer 2, Wizard 2,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A dull gray ray projects from your hand.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target.
The target's natural armor bonus is reduced by 4 points, +1 point per two caster levels above 3rd (maximum reduction 10 points at 15th level).
This spell can't reduce a creature's natural armor bonus to less than 0, nor does it have any effect on an enhancement bonus to natural armor (such as that granted by the barkskin spell).
Material Component: A shed snakeskin.

[Fyermind]

Bards are good friends. Boosting Strength works well too. Basically your base attack bonus scales by level just like enemies AC, but you also get scaling weapons and strength and assorted other boosts. The real question is can everything else scale fast enough that you can keep your power attack maxed out.

Speaking of which a Chaotic Good Bard 10 // Warchanter 10 with song of the heart and words of creation owning a badge of valor and able to cast inspirational boost can give a +11 inspire courage. With enough harmonizing weapons to sustain all their songs, they can keep +11 inspire courage, +11d6 dragonfire inspiration, +6d10 HD etc from Inspire greatness, the ability to take a penalty to armor class for a matching bonus to hit (this overlaps with inspire courage I believe, making it only useful if they take large penalties to AC), and giving every ally within range the BAB of the best ally within range which given the +6 HD of their best ally could be as high as 26. Gestalt builds can easily give housecats +60 to hit.

[Amphetryon]

Really surprised to not see the Scale Weakening spell yet. Tier 2 sorc/wiz spell. The Draconomicon version is WAY better than the Spell Compendium one (same exact spell, but Draconomicon's tops out at 10 rather than 5).My emphasis. The part I emphasized is half of why it doesn't get much love; Spell Compendium cut the spell's efficacy in half, and its publication date made it the one that takes precedence for "legal to play" purposes at most tables, barring houserules. The other issue is that - as discussed earlier in the thread - Touch attacks disregard Natural Armor to begin with, and are generally the easiest, most reliable way to hit something with a high AC. Just about the only easier ways are spells that don't target AC at all.