Pathfinder: classed creature CR issue

[Farastu]

So, supposedly the CR of a creature whom has class levels (in wizard, fighter, rogue etc... as opposed to NPC class levels) is equal to class level -1.

However I've found that repeatedly the PCs will easily over come a creature with class levels (but no other hit dice, so for example a human wizard, or fighter for example, as opposed to something like an demon or undead creature, etc... with just monster hit dice) that is even up to 2 CRs over their APL, or even two such creatures at once for that matter, while they have a lot harder time with monsters that don't have class levels and have a CR of the APL or just maybe 1 above.

So for example if their APL is 12, they almost always have a much harder time with some unclassed monster that is CR 12 or 13, than with one (or maybe even 2) classed characters that are CR 14.

So I'm getting skeptical that this CR equals class levels -1 is accurate. Are their any alternate takes on how to deal with CRs for classed creatures? I'm tempted just to pump up class levels by another one or two on them with such encounters but I'm not 100% sure that's the best way to handle it.

[DeltaEmil]

Challenge Rating is bogus. It's literally made by guesstimating and eyeballing the creature and saying "I think it might be an appropriate monster to fight level x player characters".
There are low CR-monsters that can cast implosion at will, others that have way too high CR despite only being a dumb bruiser with no special abilities.

All you can do is hope that whatever monster you throw at the group is somewhat challenging, without being too weak, too strong, or not as functioning as you intended.

It's a roulette.

[Yora]

CR is an estimate, not a calculation. And in practice, having certain spells or magic items at hand can drastically change how difficult a specific creature is.

[Spuddles]

A CR 10 monster will tend to have 15HD (usually at least d8s) and 16-20 con. A CR 10 wizard has 11 HD (d6s) and maybe 14 con.

So it you play your wizard the same way you play a bag of hit points, he'll get rubbed out real quick.

NPCs require gear optimization, too. Scrolls, potions, and the pre-battle chance to use them.

[Sylthia]

I have been using NPCs with class levels CR = ECL-2 or 3. It seems to work pretty well for the most part.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I mostly ignore CR when it comes to class levels because every class is different in how much stronger it can make a character. The party will have a much harder time fighting a Druid in a forest than it will fighting a Fighter, or even a Ranger in a forest.

Just ignore the CR and do what the creator's did and eyeball each situations as well as you can. The general rules I follow are
- Casters should be 1 or 2 levels above the best caster in the party
- Martial characters should be 3 or 4 levels above the best fighter in the party
- If neither of the above are true, they should have some kind of help or allies in the fight so that they don't get crushed in the action economy.

I'll also add that the hardest part with any NPC is giving them gear. Personally, I like gear to be a reward that the players will want to use in the future, and not just something they'll want to sell in the next trip to town. Obviously, this can sometimes make it tricky to give the NPCs gear that will also be effective for them.

[Novawurmson]

- If neither of the above are true, they should have some kind of help or allies in the fight so that they don't get crushed in the action economy.

This is one of the biggest thing I've learned in my years of DMing. Sprinkling in other combatants can drastically improve the flow of battles by opening up lots of tactical decisions for your characters.

Should the party Wizard drop his crowd control on the most powerful enemy for a high risk/high reward scenario (if it works, there's a huge problem delayed, if it fails, nothing is accomplished) or should he throw some weaker spells at some flunkies (it'll probably work, but they aren't quite as important to begin with).

Should the beatstick try to body block the horde of spiders that are crawling through the gaps in the walls, or should he try to take down the drider-queen head on?

It provides more opportunities for your players to feel powerful when there are a few weaker opponents on the battlefield ("Hahaha! I killed that guy in one full attack!").

Something that I feel like I should do a mini-guide on is that NPCs should generally be build the opposite of PCs: Mostly defensively instead of mostly offensively. As long as a full attack can knock off around 50% of a PC's health, it's still damaging enough to be a threat: After that, invest in HP/temporary HP, defenses (AC, DR, energy resistances), saving throws, disruptions, and other ways to keep your NPCs alive.

[Urpriest]

The gear issue is a relevant one. An NPC will be much better kitted-out than a monster.

[Farastu]

But if I'm not mistaken, doesn't well equipping an NPC raise their CR by 1? Well, at least assuming they are as well geared up as the PCs anyhow. In some situations I do that, in others I do not (and I definitely expect cases in which I don't to be easier). I even do things like having wizards attack from way far away so that they can sling certain spells without penalty while the ranged fighters in the group have serious penalties, and those whom don't have much or any ranged ability have to take time to close the gap.

I definitely find I can put less effort into being affective with a lot of monsters than with NPCs, that is for sure. I've had at least one near TPKs with monsters that were their own APL.

I think it is true that I have to "eyeball" things a lot more, but seems like the point of CR should be not having to do that so much.


Novawurmson: Something that I feel like I should do a mini-guide on is that NPCs should generally be build the opposite of PCs: Mostly defensively instead of mostly offensively. As long as a full attack can knock off around 50% of a PC's health, it's still damaging enough to be a threat: After that, invest in HP/temporary HP, defenses (AC, DR, energy resistances), saving throws, disruptions, and other ways to keep your NPCs alive.

I would read it for sure.

I am thinking that maybe creatures with class levels only should be something more like -2 CR, unless they are really exceptionally well equipped (which I believe I saw someone all ready suggest), and maybe those with NPC class levels only should be -3 instead of -2.

[Spuddles]

The trick with equipping NPCs are consumables. They're dirt cheap and incredibly effective. A barbarian with bull str, cat grace, bear endurance, bark skin, shield of faith, protection from evil, oil of keen edge, oil of magic weapon +2, and owl's wisdom up has the equivalent of 98,000 gp worth of equipment. And the best part? Your party won't even get to use any of it. :smallamused:

[DeltaEmil]

I think it is true that I have to "eyeball" things a lot more, but seems like the point of CR should be not having to do that so much.That's the problem. Challenge Rating is the one stat in the game which is not purely objective, like what the BAB or the saving throw or the amount of hit points of a creature with so and so much levels in this class and that class is, it's a subjective number declaration based on the gut-feeling of the game designers. The theoretical party against which the monster is compared to is made up of a fighter doing nothing much but full attacking, a healbot cleric that mostly spontaneously converts normally prepared spells to healing spells, a blastercaster wizard or sorcerer doing nothing much more but casting magic missile, cone of cold, and fireball, and perhaps a rogue who occasionally gets to shine when there's traps around and can a few times try to sneak attack.

It doesn't help that by replacing a few of these classes, or a specific magic item, or a specific spell, new splat books, there can be widely different power capabilities.

It doesn't help that even the theoretical standard party match-up can have wildly different power capabilities than expected.
What happens if the fighter actually chooses feats for a specific combat style that have great synergy together? What if the rogue doesn't use a dagger to sneak attack, but actually activates a staff with Use Magic Device to summon a few Vrock demons? What if the spellcaster replaces fireball and cone of cold with resilient spheres, nauseating clouds, or summons monsters that can cast fireball themselves at-will? What if the cleric doesn't spontaneously convert spells to healing spells, but simply uses all those buff spells just as they're written, and then goes on to start clubbing the monsters just as efficiently as the fighter?
And that's without prestige classes or new classes, or multiclass abilities.