Warhammer 40K Tactics

[Ash08]

So your entire squad was equipped with Assault weapons? Because frankly, otherwise I can't see your "forgetting" to shoot having that big an effect ... unless it was the decision to assault in the first place that screwed you over. Most weapons, after all, don't allow you to assault after you've fired them.

No, this was at a time when we didn't know shooting rules that well, we thought that you could always choose how many shots to fire with rapid fire as long as you were in range, and that rapid fire weapons had nothing to do with assualt. So then 20 shots with a bolter at shock troopers could've made a difference in the game. If you could call it a game, at that time we knew less than half the rules, I quote "yea, so grenades have the exact same stats as missle launchers, but you can only throw them 12 inches."

Thats how screwed up our games were, but now we know all the rules so the games go just great.

[onasuma]

So, my carn army is up for fine tuning now any alterations to models need to be done tomorrow prior to painting on monday. The list as it stands is as follows:

Nids 1500

HQ

Hive tyrant, wings, acid maw, adrenal glands ws, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, scything talons, scything talons, warp field (198)

Hive tyrant, adrenal glands I, adrenal glands WS, Extended carapace, Toxin sacs, Devourer, Scything talons, psycic scream (161)


Eliets

Carnefix, 2 x scything talons, bioplasma, Adrenal glands [Ws] (113)

Carnefix, 2 x twin linked devoureres, spine banks (110)

Carnefix, lash whips, scything talons, toxic miasma, Adrenal gland WS (115)


Troops

4 ripper swarms, leaping (56)

4 ripper swarms, leaping (56)


Heavy support

Carnefix, Barbed strangler, crushing claws, toxin sacs, tusked, adrenal sacs (both), tail weapon – scythe (161)

Carnefix, venom cannon, barbed strangler, enhanced senses, extended carapace, bonded exoskeleton, Reinforce chitin, spine banks (218)

Carnefix, Crushing claws, venom cannon, Adrenal glands (I), Adrenal glands (ws), bioplasma, bonded exoskeleton, Regenerate, Reinforce chitin, extended carapace, enhanced senses, Implant attack, tusked, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, tail weapon, scythe (303)

Note: this is the meat grinder version. In objective based missions the cheapest heavy support carnefix is dropped along with the rippers and some budget genestealer units are added.

Anyhow, just hoping for some criticing before i paint them all. Also, WIP pictures tomorrow. Ive got an exocrine done and everything.

[grinner666]

It's not in the Assault rules, it's in the rules for Independent Characters, specifically in the sub-chapter "Independent Characters and close combat".
I'll gladly provide a page number too, as soon as I happen to have both Internet access and my manual handy simultaneously (which won't be until I'm back to Germany in a few days, unfortunately. Also, for clarification, I'm using the 5e manual that came with Black Reach). Of course, the page number might not be exactly identical, due to different language, but it should be close.
It's definitely not a translation mistake this time though, the rule is far too explicit about what it's saying there.

Okay, now I see where you're coming from. Man, that blows. I wouldn't worry about it so much with CSMs, however. You've just got stay more than two inches away from the hero/sergeant/whatever or hope that your hero's up to twelve friggin' attacks before the poor schmuck with the power fist gets to go will be enough to take the bastard with the power fist out. Poor you.

I'd be more concerned if I was an Eldar, IG or Tau player, frankly.

I wouldn't assault a unit of Terminators with anything but another, preferably bigger unit of Terminators, though.

:smalltongue:

[Ash08]

Onasuma, your amry sounds pretty good for shock effect (seeing that many monsterous creatures will teriffy any unseasoned player[like me!]). But you'll still need more troops even for inhallition missions, because you can't multitask with mosterous creatures very well .That means that you very might well be out-horded due to lack of mobs and not be able to overwelm your opponent with melee strong units that the Nids are famous for. Get rid of one of the carnifexs and add some genestealers or gaunts for a more balanced army.

[grinner666]

So, my carn army is up for fine tuning now any alterations to models need to be done tomorrow prior to painting on monday. The list as it stands is as follows:

Nids 1500

HQ

Hive tyrant, wings, acid maw, adrenal glands ws, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, scything talons, scything talons, warp field (198)

Hive tyrant, adrenal glands I, adrenal glands WS, Extended carapace, Toxin sacs, Devourer, Scything talons, psycic scream (161)


Eliets

Carnefix, 2 x scything talons, bioplasma, Adrenal glands [Ws] (113)

Carnefix, 2 x twin linked devoureres, spine banks (110)

Carnefix, lash whips, scything talons, toxic miasma, Adrenal gland WS (115)


Troops

4 ripper swarms, leaping (56)

4 ripper swarms, leaping (56)


Heavy support

Carnefix, Barbed strangler, crushing claws, toxin sacs, tusked, adrenal sacs (both), tail weapon – scythe (161)

Carnefix, venom cannon, barbed strangler, enhanced senses, extended carapace, bonded exoskeleton, Reinforce chitin, spine banks (218)

Carnefix, Crushing claws, venom cannon, Adrenal glands (I), Adrenal glands (ws), bioplasma, bonded exoskeleton, Regenerate, Reinforce chitin, extended carapace, enhanced senses, Implant attack, tusked, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, tail weapon, scythe (303)

Note: this is the meat grinder version. In objective based missions the cheapest heavy support carnefix is dropped along with the rippers and some budget genestealer units are added.

Anyhow, just hoping for some criticing before i paint them all. Also, WIP pictures tomorrow. Ive got an exocrine done and everything.

Venom cannons can only do glancing hits against vehicles, so you're NOT going to "take out" any vehicles in ranged combat, sorry.

[Bryn]

Wow, serious Bold Inflation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoldInflation) round these parts. :smalltongue:

[grinner666]

Wow, serious Bold Inflation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoldInflation) round these parts. :smalltongue:

:smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk: :smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk: :smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk: :smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk::smallyuk: :smallyuk:

Bite me.

:smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin:

*giggles and skips away*

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'd be more concerned if I was an Eldar, IG or Tau player, frankly.

Does the IG even have CC specialist characters? And yes, one should always show concern for the Tau whenever CC comes up - right before you smash in their shooty faces :smallamused:

But the Eldar? Never fear, for our CC characters are either cheap (Exarchs) or tanky (Farseers). Warlocks, it should be noted, are both cheap and tanky :smallbiggrin:

Sure, the Avatar continues to get screwed, but what can I say - he sucks, unless you really want to build your army around him.

Hmmm... I just found a use for Howling Banshee Exarchs - CC assassins :smallamused:

[Zorg]

I've seen no rule in 5E that says an independent character can be explictly targeted in close combat. In fact, allocating wounds is treated just like it is in fire combat; the player who controls the target unit decides who gets hit. Unless you're talking about an independent character who's all alone, which I will grant you is an uncommonly dumb idea. Always put your high-points-cost independent characters in a squad that can soak up some wounds for him. That's what squads are for.

Page 49 - Independant characters and assault. Basically they become one man units, so must be in base to base to attack, though then they can be attacked by any model within 2" of them.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Page 49 - Independant characters and assault. Basically they become one man units, so must be in base to base to attack, though then they can be attacked by any model within 2" of them.

Wait... they can only kill things that are in base-to-base combat, but can be attacked by things 2" away?

That's terrible! All the character's extra attacks are going to be wasted, while your enemy can just pile on.

Are you sure they can't attack within 2" too? :smallconfused:

[Tren]

Oracle, the IC has to be in base to base to be able to attack but their attacks are directed against the entire enemy squad as normal (or against another IC they're in base to base with). It's exactly the same as the multiple combat rules, because the IC literally becomes a second unit for the purposes of CC. So enemy models have to be in b2b or within 2'' to attack the IC.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oracle, the IC has to be in base to base to be able to attack but their attacks are directed against the entire enemy squad as normal (or against another IC they're in base to base with). It's exactly the same as the multiple combat rules, because the IC literally becomes a second unit for the purposes of CC. So enemy models have to be in b2b or within 2'' to attack the IC.

Excellent. This is what I thought the rule must be, but lacking a 5th Ed. rulebook, I have no idea what wackiness they've wrought :smallsmile:

It does make CC Characters less effective, but at least characters can (and should!) duke it out with each other instead of having to chop through walls of ablative meat shielding to do so.

Oh man, the Howling Banshee Exarch is looking better all the time! First Strike on a Charge and 3 S5 Power Weapon attacks are a winning combination :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
Wait... the Diresword is actually useful now! Man, this rule change has helped the Eldar out tremendously

[onasuma]

Onasuma, your amry sounds pretty good for shock effect (seeing that many monsterous creatures will teriffy any unseasoned player[like me!]). But you'll still need more troops even for inhallition missions, because you can't multitask with mosterous creatures very well .That means that you very might well be out-horded due to lack of mobs and not be able to overwelm your opponent with melee strong units that the Nids are famous for. Get rid of one of the carnifexs and add some genestealers or gaunts for a more balanced army.

That would ruin the armies flavour. Its going to stick with this basic set up of 6 carns and 2 tyrants with rippers for troops, thats a fixed thing. My reason for posting was to look at the equipment choices for all the carns (and foot tyrant) and she how it can be fine tuned.

@grinner: I dont esspecially need to take them down, just keep them still enough for my boys to rip them in half.

[Bryn]

Does the IG even have CC specialist characters?
Well, it's kinda muddled.
All the Officers (of which you can have seven) can be fitted for close combat, but they're not independent characters (unlike most armies' officers).

However, the special characters are indeed independent characters. Lord Castellan Creed is not a combat character, but Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell is. Commissar Yarrick is reasonable both in and out of combat, being the total badass that he is (though he costs a lot). Colonel-Commissar Gaunt will probably also want to get in combat to make use of his fancy powersword. Colonel Schaeffer is also armed for close combat.

I don't know any Guard players who actually use the special characters, though - they're very expensive, and they aren't really a match for the close combat units of other armies. Gaunt's power sword lets him hit with a mighty strength of 4, for example - not really all that awe-inspiring.

[Winterwind]

Okay, now I see where you're coming from. Man, that blows. I wouldn't worry about it so much with CSMs, however. You've just got stay more than two inches away from the hero/sergeant/whatever or hope that your hero's up to twelve friggin' attacks before the poor schmuck with the power fist gets to go will be enough to take the bastard with the power fist out. Poor you.Well, keep in mind such a Chaos Lord with termi-armour and daemon weapon costs whopping 145 points, more if he bears a mark. I imagine that's a tad more than for many other armies. :smallwink:
The problem is that such an enemy officer with a powerfist (if he's from Space Marines, Chaos or Orcs, anyway) will have enough Strength for an instant-kill and 5/6 chance to wound, a 50% chance to hit and probably at least 2 attacks. Even with his 5+ Invulnerable save that's still a 48% chance to kill that Chaos Lord instantly. And since he's not an Independent Character himself, and the opposing player will, of course, want him to die last, it would be practically necessary to wipe out the entire enemy squad to prevent the officer's attack.
Well, I guess it just means I have to be more careful when moving the squad with the Chaos Lord. All the more glory to whoever proves the superior tactician. :smallcool:
Still, in the face of this massive danger to any Independent Character in close combat, allow me to reiterate my original question... are close-combat-oriented Independent Characters worth it at all?

[Ash08]

My long awaited game against the Tyranid player is today... May the emperor guide my dice... The Nemian Crusaders will fight to the last... but hopefully it won't come to that, i mean come on I have 2 devasator squads armed with 4 heavy bolters each...

lets all hope this goes well.


(sorry for all the...'s)


(I just like them, you know, for the pointless effect)

[Zorg]

Still, in the face of this massive danger to any Independent Character in close combat, allow me to reiterate my original question... are close-combat-oriented Independent Characters worth it at all?

I think they are, in the right circumstances. Bear in mind that the PF weilding sergeant will need to be within 2" of the character to attack him, and that said character should have a retinue of some sort to dish out more pain.

For example I fielded Sicarius, a Chaplain, and a tac squad with a power sword. On the charge they could dish out 13 power weapon attacks with re-rolls to hit (and the Chaplain can re-roll to wound once with digi-weapons). Thats also with a further 18 attacks of the non-powered kind. The squad also acts as a meatsheild when charging into combat from enemy fire.

They chewed through a Crisis commander, three suits, six broadsides and a dozen kroot. I lost the whole tac squad and half another squad doing it but neither the Chaplain or Sicarius took a wound.

If it had been Orks I may have just used the Chaplain with a jump pack and assault squad, and Sicarius seperately (I likes me that LD10).

Of course that all costs 495 points without transport so in the right circumstances only. Like any unit, from heavy artillery to swarms of infantry characters have their place, so really it depends on the opponent and the battle plan of your army.

For a Chaos Lord with terminator armour and demon weapon, I'd give him a terminator retinue (with power weapons mostly to strike earlier) and mark of either Khorne or Slaanesh, depending on the foe (2D6 attacks for hordes, Instant death for tough, less numerous armies).

[Tren]

Just to throw it out there because I know a lot of people get confused by the newer dexes, but a character's entry must specifically state it can take a retinue. Command squads and honor guards, while requiring a specific HQ to be fielded, do not count as retinues as the character entries don't allow for them to have a retinue. Really, no codex post-Tau/Tyranids have the option to take a retinue, and given the changes in the IC close combat rules, it looks like they're pretty much doing away with the concept all together.

[Winterwind]

I think they are, in the right circumstances. Bear in mind that the PF weilding sergeant will need to be within 2" of the character to attack him, and that said character should have a retinue of some sort to dish out more pain.

For example I fielded Sicarius, a Chaplain, and a tac squad with a power sword. On the charge they could dish out 13 power weapon attacks with re-rolls to hit (and the Chaplain can re-roll to wound once with digi-weapons). Thats also with a further 18 attacks of the non-powered kind. The squad also acts as a meatsheild when charging into combat from enemy fire.

They chewed through a Crisis commander, three suits, six broadsides and a dozen kroot. I lost the whole tac squad and half another squad doing it but neither the Chaplain or Sicarius took a wound.I see. Well, that certainly gives hope. :smallsmile:


For a Chaos Lord with terminator armour and demon weapon, I'd give him a terminator retinue (with power weapons mostly to strike earlier) and mark of either Khorne or Slaanesh, depending on the foe (2D6 attacks for hordes, Instant death for tough, less numerous armies).Hmmm... I'm a bit wary of a Khorne-weapon (that's not attacking at all every third attack, plus a wound), not to mention I'd rather keep him unmarked for fluff reasons (as leader of an army uniting all four Chaos Gods). Terminator retinue would be awesome (I have enough unused Elite choices anyway, so I could even take the Termies as independent squad and stick an icon on them to give them more/faster attacks), but finding the points for them might be tough... though I guess I know which unit I could drop, if necessary.

[Wraith]

Still, in the face of this massive danger to any Independent Character in close combat, allow me to reiterate my original question... are close-combat-oriented Independent Characters worth it at all?

I realise you have come a long way for this answer, Winterwind, so I apologise that it's probably not very helpful: Truth is, "It depends on which character you take".

I could try to type out a long list of reasons as to which ones are good and which are bad, and why, but to be honest I don't think anyone wants to have to sift through an entry for every race in the game (extremely short answer: Tyranids rock, IG don't) :smalltongue:

A way of doing it would be to ask: What character specifically are you interested in? I know you mentioned Chaos Lord in your question but I don't know if that was just a throwaway remark. Post up your preferred (intended? Destined?) CC IC-Choice and I'm sure we'll be able to tell you for sure whether or not it's a good idea :smallsmile:

[Winterwind]

I realise you have come a long way for this answer, Winterwind, so I apologise that it's probably not very helpful: Truth is, "It depends on which character you take".No need to apologise for anything. I'm grateful for getting answers to my newbie questions at all. :smallwink:


I could try to type out a long list of reasons as to which ones are good and which are bad, and why, but to be honest I don't think anyone wants to have to sift through an entry for every race in the game (extremely short answer: Tyranids rock, IG don't) :smalltongue:More interesting (to me, anyway) would be a general explanation what traits can make a character good or bad. Though I suppose that might take too much effort as well.


A way of doing it would be to ask: What character specifically are you interested in? I know you mentioned Chaos Lord in your question but I don't know if that was just a throwaway remark. Post up your preferred (intended? Destined?) CC IC-Choice and I'm sure we'll be able to tell you for sure whether or not it's a good idea :smallsmile:Yeah, that particular Chaos Lord in terminator armour and with daemon weapon is indeed the character I have in mind.

My currently planned army list is

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Elites|6 Possessed Marines|Icon of Slaanesh|176
Troops|12 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Khorne, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer; 1 powerfist, meltabombs|310
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Troops|5 Plague Marines|none|115
Troops|5 Plague Marines|none|115
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
Heavy Support|3 Obliterators|none|225
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile-launcher|50
||
Total:|1999[/table]though I am wondering whether I shouldn't get more Fast Attack troops. If I were to add Terminators, I would drop the Possessed marines (even though they are one of the few units I actually already possess) and get the Termies for those points, with some equipment.
I should note that I'm still perfectly capable of completely changing the army list; the units I have are a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer in Terminator armour, 15 marines, 8 berzerkers, 5 possessed marines and a rhino, none of them built and equipped yet.

[Wraith]

Thanks for that, Winterwind - now I have a better idea at what to aim for :smallsmile:

Just bare in mind that this is all contentious and, as an Eldar Player, I'm far more used to hiding my HQ choices than I am plunging them into the thick of fighting, so feel free to ask for a second opinion! :smallwink:

So here we go - I'll start with general tips that I have found useful. The keys to making a character are Speed, Survivability and Effectiveness.

He needs to get into close combat as soon as possible and start earning his points back ideally from the 2nd turn onwards, for as long as he's not surrounded by the meatshield provided by his enemy, he's quite likely to be a juicy target. I certainly can't remember the last time I didn't take a few shots at an easy 150 points before it had chance to do anything about it.

Your Chaos Lord is not very fast.
Let's be honest, footslogging across the board is both tedious and dangerous, and he'll be VERY lucky to be in combat by Turn 2, if he hasn't already been fragged by a lucky shot.
Planting him on your own objective and letting him lurk there until some enemies turn up to get their heads cracked, on the other hand, means that your 145pt Close Combat monster is waiting, often, until the late stages of the game until something gets near enough to worry about attacking, which is really making it hard for him to earn his cost back.

In terms of survivability, he's not bad but he could be better.
In recent years I have seen Terminator Armour change from a focus of abject terror, into a mid-level annoyance - particularly with the release of newer races (Tau and Shooty-Necrons) and models (Eldar D-Cannons and anything from the Apocalypse range) so relying on your 2+/4+ saves to keep him alive through at least 2 turns of high-power bombardment is pretty much the same as saying that he has an average chance of being wounded every time he's shot at. Bad Times.

Luckily that's nothing that a Bodyguard and/or a Transport wouldn't fix. Putting him in a Rhino would solve your speed issues and give him a bit of protection against the first round of shooting at him, but ideally you should give him a couple of Terminators for support.
Unlike in close combat, having a retinue greatly reduces the chance that he's going to be hurt every time he's shot at, and even if you fail a Save roll or 3 then chances are HE is still in perfect condition. That, and being with Terminators opens the door for Deep Strike goodness, which is an excellent tool to use for getting 2nd Turn CC fun.

Fortunately, he is quite effective even by Chaos Standards - there isn't much he couldn't take down with a bit of time and an extra bauble of equipment or two. Compare this to an Imperial Guard HQ Choice - with his WS5 and Power Sword, by IG standards he's practically Zorro, but in reality.... yes, well, we'll leave that without further comment, shall we?
So you can rely on him killing most things he comes across, however the real trick is learning how to kill by quality, not quantity. It's all fair and good to slaughter 9 Space Marines in a single round, but not if the 10th happens to be a Sergeant with a Power Fist and nothing left to lose.

You can work around this, through careful movement and precise planning to make sure that said-sergeant goes down first, but to my mind that's not a lot of fun - you're essentially spending a great deal of effort trying to AVOID a lot of close combat opportunities with your Close Combat Specialist, which is also not very "Chaos".
Unfortunately, sometimes there really isn't a lot you can do - when you get charged by Howling Banshees or a Hive Tyrant then you might as well fall on your own Daemon Sword and be done with it, but you asked how to make an effective CC IC, not an all-conquering, unstoppable one-man-army so that's beside the point :smalltongue:
It's just worth remembering that with a Shooty guy, he can ALWAYS hide behind a rock with his fingers in his ears - the melee guy has an awful lot of hard work to do, before he gets the chance to have his ass kicked anyway! :smallbiggrin:

So there you go - for general tips, you need to use your character as quickly and as often as possible, he needs to be able to do the job that's expected of him (and then some, just for good measure) and he needs to be able to survive the attempt if at all possible.

How this translates into making your Chaos Lord any better, I think, gives you three options:


Go the whole hog and make him into a Daemon Prince. Give him wings or some Go-Faster Gift and hope for the best during your opponent's first shooting Phase. He'll be much faster and more effective, though probably not a whole lot harder to kill, but as the song goes 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
Give him some Terminators to wander around with and learn to Deep Strike effectively. Your opponent will still get 1 turn to shoot at you, but with enough bodies in the way you're quite likely to survive and get on with earning those juicy, sweet points in turn 3....
Forget a Close Combat IC all together, and hire some more Possessed to do the job properly for you.

Just in case I haven't made it clear enough, a Close Combat IC is viable, but it really is going to make your life difficult and they are much, much less efficient than a Squad of CC Troops backed up by a Shooty IC, who can just set his Combi-Plasmagun to "11" and go to town on whatever he likes while standing behind his unlucky saps dear friends :smallbiggrin:

[YPU]

By the end of January I’ll probably have over half the 40k armies represented in my pooled collection, is and interesting thought. I’m probably going to largely rebuild my tau army, since a large part of it has simply been remodelled and painted far to often. And whats up with the disappearing codex’s, my Tau codex is missing as well.
And a side note, is it me or does the new forge world inquisitor lord look more like a grey knight then a witch hunter lord. He’s very usable as a grey knight commander in any case, I think. (tough he lacks all the writing on the armor)

[Lorn]

Well, it's kinda muddled.
All the Officers (of which you can have seven) can be fitted for close combat, but they're not independent characters (unlike most armies' officers).
Officers are independent, according to my Codex... has GW released a new one in the past couple of years?
(Also, if mine is right, you can get ten - heavy weapon platoons. Fairly pricy though, both moneywise and pointswise..)


However, the special characters are indeed independent characters. Lord Castellan Creed is not a combat character, but Colour Sergeant Jarran Kell is. Commissar Yarrick is reasonable both in and out of combat, being the total badass that he is (though he costs a lot). Colonel-Commissar Gaunt will probably also want to get in combat to make use of his fancy powersword. Colonel Schaeffer is also armed for close combat.
I've always seen the IG characters as being more of either an incentive to attack somewhere, a deterrent to attack somewhere or just as a better, more flavourful Officer.

For example.

Granted, you HAVE to take one command platoon. But if you just minimise this and add a bunch of support squads, then take Creed, you're essentially getting a heavy weapons platoon and an Officer (and bodyguard) worth probably well over 200 points in total. Plus, Creed's Master Strategist rule is fun, and look below for the advantages of Kell..


I don't know any Guard players who actually use the special characters, though - they're very expensive, and they aren't really a match for the close combat units of other armies. Gaunt's power sword lets him hit with a mighty strength of 4, for example - not really all that awe-inspiring.
I've tried using Creed and Kell before - it's nice having a CC-based Fearless guy backing up a squad of Ogryns while carrying a banner and, very usefully, not costing any points by himself. Under the older Victory Point rules, this was a bit cheesy but yeah.

Yarrick, also, is OK to use sometimes, mostly used him for flavour though.

Never tried Gaunt or the Last Chancers, though theoretically you could get an extremely nasty few units out of them... if a bit pricy.

Catachan heros can be interesting as well. Sly Marbo especially, and Iron Hand Straken's dreadnought close combat weapon is fun to surprise people with.


Still, in the face of this massive danger to any Independent Character in close combat, allow me to reiterate my original question... are close-combat-oriented Independent Characters worth it at all?
Depends on the army and the other army. A close combat orientated Guard character could be useful against an all-Tau army but totally pointless against a 'Nids army. A Bloodthirster is obviously optimised for close combat, but just wait until the Daemonhunter Inquisitor Lord with the Grimoire of True Names, Sacred Incense, and Daemonhammer, backed up by a retinue with a Familiar, Warrior and two Heirophants shows up. Especially if they also have some form of close combat Assassin, haha.

But for the most part, a tooled up Space Marine commander will likely do well. So will most 'Nids - take a Broodlord, even without his Genestealers he is deadly. Close combat characters, assuming appropriate equipment, tend to do their job well; they will probably survive to get their attacks in.

[Winterwind]

Thanks for that, Winterwind - now I have a better idea at what to aim for :smallsmile:I have to thank for such extensive advice. I appreciate it a lot. :smallsmile:


*general tips and analysis*Again, thanks a lot for all that. That must have taken a long time to type.
Okay, I never thought about having him walk around alone - that sounds like asking for a lascannon shot or missile to the head. I think I underestimated the importance of speed though, I'll have to rethink that part...


How this translates into making your Chaos Lord any better, I think, gives you three options:


Go the whole hog and make him into a Daemon Prince. Give him wings or some Go-Faster Gift and hope for the best during your opponent's first shooting Phase. He'll be much faster and more effective, though probably not a whole lot harder to kill, but as the song goes 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
Give him some Terminators to wander around with and learn to Deep Strike effectively. Your opponent will still get 1 turn to shoot at you, but with enough bodies in the way you're quite likely to survive and get on with earning those juicy, sweet points in turn 3....
Forget a Close Combat IC all together, and hire some more Possessed to do the job properly for you.The first option would be problematic, considering I already bought that model, so I'd rather use him (Go-Faster gifts are not available to Terminator-armour bearers). The second one sounds good enough, but don't I have to have a HQ choice on the field at the game's start? (See below with regards to the third option.)
How about option four, the one I was thinking about going with - to have him join some squad likely to see close combat action (the berzerkers, likely, or the noise marines/possessed marines), put all of them into a Rhino and have it rush at the enemy (using whatever cover there might be, of course)? Shouldn't that work, too?


Just in case I haven't made it clear enough, a Close Combat IC is viable, but it really is going to make your life difficult and they are much, much less efficient than a Squad of CC Troops backed up by a Shooty IC, who can just set his Combi-Plasmagun to "11" and go to town on whatever he likes while standing behind his unlucky saps dear friends :smallbiggrin:Well, I could, of course, make him into a Sorcerer instead and have him cast his spells from afar, but the funniest spells would require me to put a Mark on him, and I'd prefer my army leader to stay true to Chaos Undivided. Besides, I somehow like the idea of that supreme warrior with his massive daemon-containing blade, so I think I'll put up with him. :smallamused:


Depends on the army and the other army. A close combat orientated Guard character could be useful against an all-Tau army but totally pointless against a 'Nids army. A Bloodthirster is obviously optimised for close combat, but just wait until the Daemonhunter Inquisitor Lord with the Grimoire of True Names, Sacred Incense, and Daemonhammer, backed up by a retinue with a Familiar, Warrior and two Heirophants shows up. Especially if they also have some form of close combat Assassin, haha.

But for the most part, a tooled up Space Marine commander will likely do well. So will most 'Nids - take a Broodlord, even without his Genestealers he is deadly. Close combat characters, assuming appropriate equipment, tend to do their job well; they will probably survive to get their attacks in.The army in question are Chaos Space Marines; I indeed don't worry all that much about getting the close combat character to get his attacks in, the part I worry about more is how to get in attacks for a second time. :smallwink:

[Bryn]

Officers are independent, according to my Codex... has GW released a new one in the past couple of years?
(Also, if mine is right, you can get ten - heavy weapon platoons. Fairly pricy though, both moneywise and pointswise..)
*Rereads Codex*
What. That's the second time I've said something completely wrong about the IG recently. How I managed miss the paragraph labelled 'Character'... well, I really have no idea.

10 command squads seems to be also right. Bah humbug. :smalltongue:

Guess I'm just better at discussing fluff...

[Ash08]

Just to throw it out there because I know a lot of people get confused by the newer dexes, but a character's entry must specifically state it can take a retinue. Command squads and honor guards, while requiring a specific HQ to be fielded, do not count as retinues as the character entries don't allow for them to have a retinue. Really, no codex post-Tau/Tyranids have the option to take a retinue, and given the changes in the IC close combat rules, it looks like they're pretty much doing away with the concept all together.

wait does this mean that a Brood Lord's gene stealers aren't his retinue, instead they are just the squad he is with?


If so, that guy pulled something on me today... oh, and can broodlords infiltrate?

[Tren]

Broodlords can actually take a retinue, as it's under their entry. Tau and Tyranids were I think the last dexes written with retinues. Also, to the best of my knowledge the broodlord and retinue can infiltrate, at least all the nid players I know do it.

Edit: Yep, the broodlord and his retinue have infiltrate. Though one thing to watch for is the Brood is not fleet. The genestealers would normally be fleet, but because the broodlord is attached they lose the benefit. I had one kid try to do that once, that said he also tried to claim his gaunts were S4 T4 with a 4+, his fex had a 5+ invuln, his zoanthropes had every power in the dex, and he had 4 heavy support options :smallannoyed:

[starwoof]

Genestealers can only infiltrate if they have a Broodlord.

[Ash08]

alright, thanks that makes sense. So the retinue makes it so I can't target the broodlord in close combat right?

[Tren]

Yep, they count as an upgrade character (like a sgt, exarch, etc.) until the retinue is wiped out and then they become and IC again.

[Killersquid]

Alright, so I'm going to a class for painting lessons and getting into the game at the local GW (seems like a fun idea to get to meet people), but was wondering what the advice is for painting (besides thin your paints) orcs.

[Wraith]

The first option would be problematic, considering I already bought that model, so I'd rather use him (Go-Faster gifts are not available to Terminator-armour bearers).

That's fair enough - I quite like the model, too, so it'd probably be a shame to not use him :smallsmile:


The second one sounds good enough, but don't I have to have a HQ choice on the field at the game's start?

I'll have to take your word for that one, as I've never had to test it myself. Of my two HQ choices, the Farseer usually has priority.
Having said that, a Chaos Lieutenant with a Boltgun is only 45 points and with a few little toys would be an admirable addition to your Berzerkers or Marines Squads. Best of both worlds, relatively (for Chaos, at least) cheap.


How about option four, the one I was thinking about going with - to have him join some squad likely to see close combat action (the berzerkers, likely, or the noise marines/possessed marines), put all of them into a Rhino and have it rush at the enemy (using whatever cover there might be, of course)? Shouldn't that work, too?

That is probably the better compromise, actually - I didn't realise that Lords could join Berzerkers without taking a Mark of Khorne themselves, but having looked it up it appears they can.
Certainly give that a try - the newest edition of 40K is actually more friendly towards Transports like Rhinos, as they are a bit harder to destroy outright than they used to be, and thanks to the disembarking rules it's now reasonably favourable for you to rush forward as fast as you can in your own turn, have it destroyed in your opponent's shooting phase, and then you assault in your next rather than waste a turn getting out and being shot at some more.

To me, that puts the image in my head: A tank rumbles forward towards a line of IG Troopers, one of whom bravely takes aim with a missile launcher and lets loose. The Tank erupts into flames and stops dead, but the Berzerkers inside simply erupt out of the front in a fireball and cannon-ball into the waiting Guardsmen.... :smallbiggrin:

But best of all, you seem to have learned the most important lesson in Warhammer: Play with what you like best, and just go for it no matter how much rearranging you have to do! :smallsmile:
You'd be amazed at how many people I've known who have played armies they don't enjoy, just because they think it'll help them win. Good on you, learning to play for fun first and foremost.


Alright, so I'm going to a class for painting lessons and getting into the game at the local GW (seems like a fun idea to get to meet people), but was wondering what the advice is for painting (besides thin your paints) orcs.

Having a good sense of humour helps - the best Orcs (and Orks) that I've seen are ones that don't try to be too serious.
Pick 2 or 3 colours for your theme and try to use them on every model so that it all looks like part of the same Unit or Army, but feel free to go nuts and use whatever you want for details like tattoos, graffiti and jewelery.

Having said that, I learned to paint in the late 90's, when it was fashionable to have bright, clean colours on a model, whereas contemporary fashion seems to be much darker and dirtier, not unlike modern FPS video games :smalltongue: Feel free to research different styles and pick and choose the bits you like best - learning to paint is much more satisfying if you learn to paint in *your* way, rather than in someone else's way.

[onasuma]

Feel free to research different styles and pick and choose the bits you like best - learning to paint is much more satisfying if you learn to paint in *your* way, rather than in someone else's way.

Thats probably the best advise on the topic. I, for example, like using lots of washes on my models, my nurgle marines have upwards of 4 each, but i know far fewer people like them than like drybrushing. All in all it depends on what you feel looks right.

[Winterwind]

That's fair enough - I quite like the model, too, so it'd probably be a shame to not use him :smallsmile:Heh, yeah, and that too. I love it. :smallbiggrin:


I'll have to take your word for that one, as I've never had to test it myself. Of my two HQ choices, the Farseer usually has priority.Actually, I have no idea whether one has to have a HQ choice at the game's start - I don't remember any rule stating so explicitly, I merely thought the standard requirement of one HQ and two Troops choices might imply it.


Having said that, a Chaos Lieutenant with a Boltgun is only 45 points and with a few little toys would be an admirable addition to your Berzerkers or Marines Squads. Best of both worlds, relatively (for Chaos, at least) cheap.Alas, no more such thing as Chaos Lieutenants in the 5e Chaos codex. :/
(From what I have heard, the loss of options for Chaos has been rather tremendous - I mean, all the different kinds of daemons are gone and have been replaced with a generic 'Greater Daemon' and 'Lesser Daemons', the list of daemonic gifts is much shorter, etc. Then again, Berzerkers, Noise Marines and such troops are available without restriction now.)
Otherwise, I would surely consider one, especially after your encouragement. :smallwink:


That is probably the better compromise, actually - I didn't realise that Lords could join Berzerkers without taking a Mark of Khorne themselves, but having looked it up it appears they can.
Certainly give that a try - the newest edition of 40K is actually more friendly towards Transports like Rhinos, as they are a bit harder to destroy outright than they used to be, and thanks to the disembarking rules it's now reasonably favourable for you to rush forward as fast as you can in your own turn, have it destroyed in your opponent's shooting phase, and then you assault in your next rather than waste a turn getting out and being shot at some more.That's another reason why I want this Lord to go without a Mark - that way, it makes moderate sense even fluff-wise when he joins various squads devoted to different Chaos Gods.
Alright, if that's viable, then I think my army should work just fine so far. :smallsmile:


To me, that puts the image in my head: A tank rumbles forward towards a line of IG Troopers, one of whom bravely takes aim with a missile launcher and lets loose. The Tank erupts into flames and stops dead, but the Berzerkers inside simply erupt out of the front in a fireball and cannon-ball into the waiting Guardsmen.... :smallbiggrin:Don't forget the towering figure clad in black armour in their midst, wielding a blazing blade that rips out the souls of all fools opposing that warrior and sends them screaming into the abyss of the Immaterium. :smallcool:


But best of all, you seem to have learned the most important lesson in Warhammer: Play with what you like best, and just go for it no matter how much rearranging you have to do! :smallsmile:
You'd be amazed at how many people I've known who have played armies they don't enjoy, just because they think it'll help them win. Good on you, learning to play for fun first and foremost.:smallbiggrin:

Though this essentially means I'll have to figure out how to find people insane enough to play 3000+ point games with me, because I just don't see how I could fit in everything into my army that I would like to have otherwise! (Actually, I did some rough estimations and found out that the army I would actually like to field would have to have some 3500-3700 points! :smalleek: )

[woodenbandman]

My favorite tactic is "Have superior troops." Chaos marines are awesome, because they have all the great things: mobility, versatility, high armor, loads of firepower, and nothing weak about them.

A good tactic I have is to put a wall of plague marines shielding my tanks and slowly march across the battlefield. By the time the plague marines, between their huge toughness and armor, die, it's too late because the berserkers are all up in their face.

[grinner666]

Well, keep in mind such a Chaos Lord with termi-armour and daemon weapon costs whopping 145 points, more if he bears a mark. I imagine that's a tad more than for many other armies. :smallwink:

Uhhhhhhhh ... no. My Bike Chaplain costs 135 points, 150 if I take him with a plasma pistol; and that doesn't make him anywhere near as effective in Assault as a Terminator Lord ... oh, and he's an IC, too. Prince Yriel of the Iyanden army costs 155 points. Also independent character.

You get what you pay for, however; models that cost that many points will certainly take more points than that out before they drop.


The problem is that such an enemy officer with a powerfist (if he's from Space Marines, Chaos or Orcs, anyway) will have enough Strength for an instant-kill and 5/6 chance to wound, a 50% chance to hit and probably at least 2 attacks. Even with his 5+ Invulnerable save that's still a 48% chance to kill that Chaos Lord instantly. And since he's not an Independent Character himself, and the opposing player will, of course, want him to die last, it would be practically necessary to wipe out the entire enemy squad to prevent the officer's attack.

Yes, yes, yes. The thing is, he will average six attacks per round. BY HIMSELF. If you don't take a mark of any kind, he'll wound two-thirds of the time. Against Space Marines. If you take a Mark of Khorne he'll average nine attacks per round by himself.* Believe it, taking out the guy with the power fist, even in a squad of combat specialists like loyal Terminators, isn't going to be difficult with those kinds of numbers.

If you're that worried about it, though, make sure the squad your Lord joins has a few members armed with a pair of lightning claws. Unlike Power Fists they don't go at Initiative 1 ... and if you've got a 50/50 chance to wound (again, against Space Marines) and two tries ... with three attacks per round ... plus one for charging ... and no armor saves ... yer gonna be woundin' some folks. :smallbiggrin:

To be honest Orks ... BIG MOBS of Orks ... are the only thing I'd have any concern about. If you're playing against Orks, have a Sorcerer handy for your HQ choice. :smalltongue: Or whittle them down in fire combat before engaging them (or letting them engage you) in Assault. After all, they're ORKS ... no armor save worth worrying about.


Still, in the face of this massive danger to any Independent Character in close combat, allow me to reiterate my original question... are close-combat-oriented Independent Characters worth it at all?

Yes. See above. :smallwink:

* I just want to correct you on one small matter here; two one-in-six chances of losing all your attacks do not combine to make a one-in-three chance. I forget the exact formula but the net effect is more like two-in-nine. Not ideal, I'll admit, but much better than having that problem twice (on average) every game.

[Wraith]

Actually, I have no idea whether one has to have a HQ choice at the game's start - I don't remember any rule stating so explicitly, I merely thought the standard requirement of one HQ and two Troops choices might imply it.

I always took it to mean "the choices must be present in your Army List" - Otherwise at least 2 of the Eldar Phoenix Lords can't use their best abilities in anything under a 1500 point army, and buying Wings/Jump Pack for your Autarch loses a big chunk of their appeal. *shrug*


Alas, no more such thing as Chaos Lieutenants in the 5e Chaos codex. :/

Aww, hell, have I been reading the wrong Codex again?

*checks*

Yep, that one was last years'. That's a bit awkward.... But luckily the vast majority of my previous post still applies :smallredface: That's still a real kick in the neck though - the 'new' Chaos HQ characters really don't appeal to me at all - I rather liked having to create and name your own General, and the game will lose something if half of the Chaos Armies at a Tournament are led by the exact same guy.... :smallannoyed:


Though this essentially means I'll have to figure out how to find people insane enough to play 3000+ point games with me, because I just don't see how I could fit in everything into my army that I would like to have otherwise!

You're one of us now - you'll soon realise that 'sanity' is a relative term :smallbiggrin:


Uhhhhhhhh ... no. My Bike Chaplain costs 135 points, 150 if I take him with a plasma pistol; and that doesn't make him anywhere near as effective in Assault as a Terminator Lord ... oh, and he's an IC, too. Prince Yriel of the Iyanden army costs 155 points. Also independent character.

You get what you pay for, however; models that cost that many points will certainly take more points than that out before they drop.

It could be worse - take a look through the previous editions of your armies' Codices and you'll see that all of the top-end HQ choice models have gained in cost by around 50%, before adding wargear, but have usually gotten better in terms of usefulness and selection options in return.

That might not sound like much, but remember that these are armies that are cared for by GW. Something like the Daemonhunter Grand Master (not been updated for nearly 5 years, and often considered 'broken' at the best of times so almost certainly wouldn't get an upgrade) was 145 points without upgrades even back then.
When (If?) it ever gets rereleased, I'm going to have to remortgage my Land Raider in order to pay 200 points just for the General! :smalltongue:

[grinner666]

A good tactic I have is to put a wall of plague marines shielding my tanks and slowly march across the battlefield. By the time the plague marines, between their huge toughness and armor, die, it's too late because the berserkers are all up in their face.

First, I have three words that will ruin the entire day of your Plague Marines' "huge toughness". The first two are: Leman Russ. The third is: Vindicator.

We might also add Plasma Cannon, Devastators, Support Squad and even Whirlwind to that list. Also, Carnifex, Scourges, Talos, Wraithguard, Sniper Rifles, Fire Dragons ... seriously, there are so many ways to take out Plague Marines quickly it isn't even funny.

Oh, and isn't getting around blocking forces kind of the entire point of Fast Attack choices? Not in the IG, I'll grant you, as their Fast Attack units are neither fast nor very good on the attack ... but for most armies? I'd think that dropping a bike or assault squad on Rhinos carrying a bunch of Khorne Berserkers would be a nice way to open them up to some ordnance blasts or bolter fire.

I'm not trying to pee on your parade or anything, just remind you that it's always possible to get around any tactic ... with any army ... if that tactic becomes habitual.

[Kane]

Well, some redshirt at my store mentioned that Tau couldn't do anything but sit and shoot, and was gloating about how he loved to see the look on thier faces when they realized his Sternguard were better at it than they were.

I took it as a challenge, and went out and tried to find some other valid tactics for Tau, settling on 'ninja-tau'. Surgical deep strike heavy. Anyway, here's a list I made for review, with descriptions.


HQ:Cmdr. Farsight (O'Shovah) 170
Bodyguard:
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, fusion blaster, target lock 77
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, Twin-Linked fusion blaster, target lock 83
Plas rifle, Targeting Array, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
Plas. Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, targeting array, target lock 87
cyclic Ion blaster, Targeting Array, multi tracker, TwinLinked Flamers 71
Twinlinked flamers, multi tracker, burst cannon 58
Plasma Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
And assorted drones (1 maker light drone, 5 shield drones, and 8 gun drones, to fill up all 7 Hard Wired drone controllers. (185)
EXPLANATION: This unit deepstrikes, and hopefully will butcher MEQs, and be practically indestructible. (14 ablaitive wounds before you get to the battle suits.) Clocks in at 737 pts, plus 170 for Farsight.

Elites:
3 crisis suits, Twin linked fusion blasters, 2 target locks, and 3 shield drones. 184 pts.
Deep strike, obliterate vehicles. There's three of them so that I can roll that five or six on the damage table in one turn.

6 stealth suits, all with targeting arrays, and a single shield drone. 330 pts.
Deepstrike, and take out swarm-y things, or just inflict a lot of saves. 24 S5 shots at BS 4 (TA), possibly at BS 5 (ML drone).

1 Crisis w/ Positional relay, TwinLinked Missile pod, Stim Injector.
Positional relay lets me call in a single unit from reserves each turn on a 2+ roll. Makes sure I can deepstrike things each turn. On turn one, this, and possibly kroot and/or pathfinders, will be on the board. That's all. Missile pods because they'll let it shoot at stuff from far away. Stim pack because it needs to stay alive. (FNP)

Troops:
10 kroot, 10 kroot hounds. Infiltrate, and tie up nasty shooty units. (I'm lookin' at you, Devastators!)
Joy. I was typing this up when I remembered that I can't get Kroot with Farsight. 130 pts I have to spend on another troop choice and something else.

6 Fire warriors 60 pts.
The absolute minimum that I can spend on them.

Fast Attack:
4 Pathfinders + Warfish [Warfish=Devilfish w/ targeting array, Disruption pod, and SMS. 7 bs4 S5 shots.] Total of 158pts. Mainly for devilfish, rather than markerlights, because the devilfish lets me re roll DS scatter die if the target is within sight of the 'fish. Markerlights might help my other crisis suits. Or Hammerhead.

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead: railgun, burst cannons, multi tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 165 pts. Popping artillery, especially after my FusionBlaster squad is already busy, or before they've arrived. Also, just about the only thing I have that can deal with a Monolith.

Read and review? Suggestions for my other troop choice, or should I just have another 6-model squad?



Oh, and, You do have the option to not field your two troop choices and commander at the beginning, right? They can come in from deep strike, right?

[Wraith]

We might also add Plasma Cannon, Devastators, Support Squad and even Whirlwind to that list. Also, Carnifex, Scourges, Talos, Wraithguard, Sniper Rifles, Fire Dragons ... seriously, there are so many ways to take out Plague Marines quickly it isn't even funny.

Wow, you're right! "Blocking" tactics DO suck! I mean, I'd be in deep trouble if I were playing a CSM Army and all those things were looking back at me from the other side of the table! :smallamused:

The man said that's what he likes to do, not that it's his only play and that he doesn't have things happening at the same time. There's no need to go off on a rant and burst a blood vessel like that just to show that you know how it might be beaten.

Take a deep, cleansing breath, sir - I daresay other Players know what theyre doing with their armies, at least sometimes :smallsmile:


Oh, and, You do have the option to not field your two troop choices and commander at the beginning, right? They can come in from deep strike, right?

I think I'm going to go and say "Yes" to this one, entirely down to Space Marine Drop Pods.
The Codex specifically states that ALL 10-Man Tactical Squads may be equipped with them, and that they ALWAYS enter into play via the rules for Deep Striking. There's absolutely no word about there needing to be "at least" anything on the table.

In theory, between Drop-Pods, Deep Strikers and Infiltrating Scouts, you could build an entire (functional!) Space Marine Army and not have to setup any of it at the start of your turn! :smalltongue:

[Tren]

So a question arose yesterday during an Apoc game. In the Black Templar dex under the Iron Halo entry it says that only one halo may be taken in an army. Similarly under the overview of the Wargear section it lists "relics and artefacts" and says only one such item can be taken in an army. The BT player felt however, because it was an Apoc game those rules didn't apply and so equipped every IC in his army with an iron halo, adamantine mantle, etc.

After looking over the apoc book, the only restrictions it completely and totally throws to the wind is the FOC, and it makes one statement that says players may take any upgrades they like, but that seems like more of a throw away statement than a categorical suspension of rules like "may take only 100pts of wargear" or "may take only one per army". The BT player's logic just rubs me the wrong way, because I see the point cost of most of those items as being balanced against the fact you can only have one in your army. I can imagine people certainly throwing a fit if I threw a dozen Dark Eldar archons on the board all with a 2++ shadowfield! Even in apoc, that would be cheesy and I think against the spirit of the rules.

In the end I realize this all probably comes down making a decision at the start of the game, and maybe I'm extra frustrated because the BT player was a pompous douche who has apparently never picked up the 5th edition BRB. That said I'm curious what other people think on the topic; should you be able to use a restricted item more than once in an apoc game?

[Eldan]

Putting everything in the army I'd like to...
No idea what it would cost in points, honestly, because I don't have any Imperial Armory or Apocalypse books. Money would be the problem anyway, not points. No way I could pay for every heavy vehicle and aircraft in the eldar list and still get my revenant titans in.

[grinner666]

Wow, you're right! "Blocking" tactics DO suck! I mean, I'd be in deep trouble if I were playing a CSM Army and all those things were looking back at me from the other side of the table! :smallamused:

The man said that's what he likes to do, not that it's his only play and that he doesn't have things happening at the same time. There's no need to go off on a rant and burst a blood vessel like that just to show that you know how it might be beaten.

Take a deep, cleansing breath, sir - I daresay other Players know what theyre doing with their armies, at least sometimes :smallsmile:

Why don't you take a deep, cleansing breath, and bother to read the last paragraph of that post? Y'know, the one where I said that any army could beat any tactic if that tactic became habitual, and that was my only point.

You really need to learn to relax and cut down the unwarranted snide remarks. There are many decaffeinated brands that are just as tasty as the real thing.

[onasuma]

Lets calm the arguement with a quick question.

In a hypothetical apocolypse game, how many biovores can i field? Is it 3 due to the getting up to three per heavy support choice and it being 0-1 or is it infinite ignoring the 0-1 restriction. Being limited to 3 seems a bit silly, but there may be reasons.

[Tren]

Unit choices in an apoc game are completely open-ended. 0-X restrictions and the FOC go out the window in an apoc game, so you could field an entire force of biovores if you wanted. And on that note if anyone wants to address my earlier post I'd much appreciate it :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Now I really want to set up a "unit" of Avatars or Wraithlords.

[evil_d4_swarm]

I have another question.

What are the Kroot Hounds' 'Ferocious Fangs?'

[Oracle_Hunter]

Now I really want to set up a "unit" of Avatars or Wraithlords.

Nah, what I'd want would be a swarm of Scorpions backed by an Avatar. Or even just a single massive squad of Wraithguard (Fearless) backed by a Farseer or two. :smalltongue:

Oh, how I miss the broken Seer's Council, when Enhance used to stack. WS10, I10 Witchblades FTW :smallbiggrin:

Though, and this may sound silly, the one thing I really miss is the 2E Eldar Weapons. I liked rolling a D66 table to see what my D-Cannon did; same thing for the Monofilament Tables. Or, heck, even the 3E Scatter Lasers mounted on War Walkers. Yes, I know that Heavy 4 is statistically better than Heavy d6, but I loved rolling 6d6 to see how many shots I had on the Ork Mob I had just bracketed. It was just so satisfying :smallamused:

EDIT:
@Kane - your redshirt buddy is silly. Mecha Tau are famous for their mobility, and as you've noted, a 'suit heavy Tau army can do lots of move-'n-shoot stuff. It's just Fire Warriors who do best if they sit still.

Of course, it's a no-brainer to take advantage of your massive range superiority by sitting still and nuking anything that comes within LOS. But you don't have to play that way - it's just the easiest way to run the army.

[Eldan]

My all-time favored weapon is the skaven ratling. Roll a d6 to get number of shots. Then roll as many additional d6s as you like, one after the other. The result is the number of shots. If you get a number you already got this turn, boom.
Hmm. The seer council isn't in the 4th/5th ed at all, right?
Also, what the hell is a d66? I mean, technically I know, but what?

[evil_d4_swarm]

It's like a d10, but with 33 faces on a side.:smalltongue::smallwink:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Now I really want to set up a "unit" of Avatars or Wraithlords.

Warhound Titan. Enjoy your destroyer hits. :smallamused:

[Eldan]

D-Cannon. Or Wraithguard.

[Illiterate Scribe]

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2384/picture8vg8.png

Can't let you do that, starfox.

[Eldan]

Well, the Eldar have to have something comparable somewhere. I mean, they have these huge cannons in forgeworld for a reason, no?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Surprisingly enough, even pulsars only have a 60" range.

The somewhat ... unfortunate looking Cobra Distortion Cannon is only G48".

[Eldan]

And once again the Eldar prove their technological superiority.

[evil_d4_swarm]

What do Disruption Pods look like?

[grinner666]

Nah, what I'd want would be a swarm of Scorpions backed by an Avatar. Or even just a single massive squad of Wraithguard (Fearless) backed by a Farseer or two. :smalltongue:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, Wraithguard. I've got 25 of them in my Iyanden army. Definitely worth the 875 points plus cost of 3 Warlocks, even in a thousand-point game. I'd LIKE to put together an Apocalypse army consisting just of them, Wraithlords, Warlocks and Farseers, but I don't think I can afford the models.

:smallbiggrin:

[Tren]

Well the intartube whispers are that Jes Goodwin is going to be doing some new Eldar plastics along with the DE stuff, so hopefully wraithguard won't be $150 a squad.

[Zorg]

So a question arose yesterday during an Apoc game. In the Black Templar dex under the Iron Halo entry it says that only one halo may be taken in an army. ... That said I'm curious what other people think on the topic; should you be able to use a restricted item more than once in an apoc game?

I'd be hesitant to do it, though GW seems to be phasing out 'one per army' items - possibly for this very reason. If I wanted to I'd ask my opponent first, and offer to pay an extra 50% of points for each one after the first.

Regardless Apoc also says to get your opponents permission for sing non-codex stuff like custom vehicles, so I'd put 're-writing the codex' under that area.

On the latest 40k podcast Jes says he's working on Dark Eldar, and has been for some time, and will be for some time still to come. Of course it doesn't mean they won't be doing other Eldar, but I'd see it as unlikely before IG, DE and maybe some more Necrons.

[Lorn]

In the end I realize this all probably comes down making a decision at the start of the game, and maybe I'm extra frustrated because the BT player was a pompous douche who has apparently never picked up the 5th edition BRB. That said I'm curious what other people think on the topic; should you be able to use a restricted item more than once in an apoc game?
Maybe just houserule that you can only have such items one per 2000 points/only one per x amount of HQ choices? It's a simple solution from Early Morning Lorn, who is different to Normal Lorn, but it's a solution...

[Wraith]

My all-time favored weapon is the skaven ratling. Roll a d6 to get number of shots. Then roll as many additional d6s as you like, one after the other. The result is the number of shots. If you get a number you already got this turn, boom.

You've got to love a weapon that is essentially "Heavy 7d6". I mean they're Skaven - who cares if they blow up, if you can potentially crank out 27 s5 shots in a fantasy game? :smallbiggrin:


Also, what the hell is a d66? I mean, technically I know, but what?

Roll a d6 for 'tens' and another d6 for 'units', and you end up with a ranges between 11-16, 21-26 and so on.
It's just a very old fashioned way of creating a Table without having to go out and buy d10's, which have never really been part of the GW range except for 3 or 4 very rare occasions.

As far as I know, such a table is a lot easier to 'balance' than a simple 2d6 roll, as the 'average' roll is much broader - on a 2d6, you're almost as likely to roll 6, 7 or 8 as often as all the other numbers combined, so with a bigger, broader table you can get in more options in the 'Middle' range.

Go play Necromunda, Mordheim or Blood Bowl, if you ever get the chance - those games are lousy with such Tables :smallwink:


Why don't you take a deep, cleansing breath, and bother to read the last paragraph of that post? Y'know, the one where I said that any army could beat any tactic if that tactic became habitual, and that was my only point.

Thanks, but I don't think I'll bother, what with already addressing it the 4th sentence of my last post.

[Paul H]

Hi

Got a Slaanesh Noise Marine army. Not sure of points, though does include a number of Deamonettes.

Can't get a game round here (apart from the kids in GW), so no inspiration to finish painting them.

And what's with the rule change that only basic squads can have their special hvy weapon?

Grrrrrr

Cheers
Paul H

[Winterwind]

Uhhhhhhhh ... no. My Bike Chaplain costs 135 points, 150 if I take him with a plasma pistol; and that doesn't make him anywhere near as effective in Assault as a Terminator Lord ... oh, and he's an IC, too. Prince Yriel of the Iyanden army costs 155 points. Also independent character.I should have clarified I was speaking only about non-unique characters with the only purpose of close combat there. Unique characters are more expensive, sure, some of them significantly, and characters who are not meant to wade into melee suffer less from the danger involved.


You get what you pay for, however; models that cost that many points will certainly take more points than that out before they drop.I sure hope so. :smallamused:


Yes, yes, yes. The thing is, he will average six attacks per round. BY HIMSELF. If you don't take a mark of any kind, he'll wound two-thirds of the time. Against Space Marines. If you take a Mark of Khorne he'll average nine attacks per round by himself.* Believe it, taking out the guy with the power fist, even in a squad of combat specialists like loyal Terminators, isn't going to be difficult with those kinds of numbers. That's six attacks, of which one third will miss, one third of what doesn't miss will not wound, and if the opponents were Terminators, one third of the remaining attacks would be stopped by the Invulnerable save. That's 8/27 (about 30%) attacks killing something. On average, that's less than two dead Terminators.
Against units without Invulnerable save, four out of nine attacks will kill, that's still a good deal less than three killed models on average.
Now, I'm not going to continue arguing about the worth of IC close combat specialists, because Wraith and you already managed to convince me, but considering the rest of the squad the Chaos Lord would be a part of, unless they are all equipped with powerweapons, would have even more trouble with scoring kills, that hardly sounds like wiping out the enemy squad or killing its leader was ensured.


If you're that worried about it, though, make sure the squad your Lord joins has a few members armed with a pair of lightning claws. Unlike Power Fists they don't go at Initiative 1 ... and if you've got a 50/50 chance to wound (again, against Space Marines) and two tries ... with three attacks per round ... plus one for charging ... and no armor saves ... yer gonna be woundin' some folks. :smallbiggrin:

To be honest Orks ... BIG MOBS of Orks ... are the only thing I'd have any concern about. If you're playing against Orks, have a Sorcerer handy for your HQ choice. :smalltongue: Or whittle them down in fire combat before engaging them (or letting them engage you) in Assault. After all, they're ORKS ... no armor save worth worrying about.I guess I'll start with doing what I originally intended to do and have the Chaos Lord join the Berzerkers, and if that doesn't work out, I'll swap the Possessed Marines for a Terminator squad and start deep-striking, after creating a convenient beacon inmidst the enemy troops with the Icon of my Raptors. :smallcool:


Yes. See above. :smallwink:Gotcha. :smallsmile:


* I just want to correct you on one small matter here; two one-in-six chances of losing all your attacks do not combine to make a one-in-three chance. I forget the exact formula but the net effect is more like two-in-nine. Not ideal, I'll admit, but much better than having that problem twice (on average) every game.I'm not sure where I wrote anything about two one-in-six chances becoming a one-in-three chance... I don't see any such thing in the passage you were responding to - what I wrote there was, basically:
- Enemy model has a chance of 1/2 to hit (WS of 4 against my 6 -> hits on 4+)
- Enemy model has a chance of 5/6 to wound (S of 8 against my T of 4 -> wounds on 2+), that gives a chance of 5/12 that an attack ends in a wound
- There is a 2/3 chance the attack passes through the Terminator armour's Invulnerable save of 5+, so there is a 5/18 chance for one attack to result in an unsaved wound (so, equivalently, 13/18 for one attack to not result in an unsaved wound)
- Hence, the probability for 2 attacks not to result in at least one unsaved wound is 13/18 squared, which is about 52%, giving the enemy model a 48% chance to kill that Lord with its 2 attacks, should it get to attack.


I always took it to mean "the choices must be present in your Army List" - Otherwise at least 2 of the Eldar Phoenix Lords can't use their best abilities in anything under a 1500 point army, and buying Wings/Jump Pack for your Autarch loses a big chunk of their appeal. *shrug*Oooooh... then that strategy with deep-striking the Chaos Lord with a pack of Terminators should work just fine and will become my alternative should putting him together with the Berzerkers not work out. :smallsmile:


Yep, that one was last years'. That's a bit awkward.... But luckily the vast majority of my previous post still applies :smallredface: That's still a real kick in the neck though - the 'new' Chaos HQ characters really don't appeal to me at all - I rather liked having to create and name your own General, and the game will lose something if half of the Chaos Armies at a Tournament are led by the exact same guy.... :smallannoyed:Yea... oh well, can't have everything, I guess. :smallwink:


You're one of us now - you'll soon realise that 'sanity' is a relative term :smallbiggrin:Good thing I never valued it much (or possessed much thereof). :smallbiggrin:

[Baxter190]

Alright, I know this place might not be the best place to post it, but I don't want to start a new thread, and this isthe best place I could think of getting some help. I'm thinking of aking and Imperial guard Army, preferably lead by a Priest or a commissar. However, I've never played IG, and neither has anyone at my LGS. I have about $120 usd to my name for this little enterprise, and I was wondering if you guys could help me out in figurng out exactly what to buy. Thanks.

[Winterwind]

D'oh - I was so busy making replies that I forgot to post the questions I had in mind. :smallredface:

From what I gather from reading this thread, it seems to be common practice to adjust one's army list according to the army one is facing, right?
In that case, how sensible would it be for me to get, in addition to this planned army list

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Elites|6 Possessed Marines|Icon of Slaanesh|176
Troops|12 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Khorne, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer; 1 powerfist, meltabombs|310
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Troops|5 Plague Marines|none|115
Troops|5 Plague Marines|none|115
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
Heavy Support|3 Obliterators|none|225
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile-launcher|50
||
Total:|1999[/table]also a squad of 7 Chaos Bikes, with 2 meltas and an Icon of Nurgle, one of the bikers a Champion with a powerfist? That squad would cost 341 points, so I could swap it for the Obliterators and one Plague Marine squad whenever facing overly shooty (like Tau) or manouverable (like Eldar) opponents. Or would that be a dumb idea?


Also, should I be worried that the average points-per-model cost in my army, not even counting the Chaos Lord, Obliterators and Rhinos, is as high as 27? :smalleek:

[onasuma]

To be honest, once you have everything on your list, your gonna be able to fine tune anything pretty easily anyway, given that you'll rarely play a game that large. My 4k points of chaos have never all seen battle at once, heck, some of the tanks have never seen battle.

[Winterwind]

2000 points isn't that much though, is it? :smallconfused:

[onasuma]

Nope (despite my smallest 40k army being 2k) it isnt that big, but you'll rarely use more than 1k or 1.5k if your playing at a gw and dont have to many close friends who play. Also, i believe you said somewhere that your army was about 3.4k at its intended size. Might have misremembered though.

@ Paul H: Doesnt your GW have a vetern night? Thats usually a decent place to find non-children players for a sizable game. Also, chaos can still take special heavy weapons, normal marines got nerfed in a manner to stop them using special/heavy weapons until it gets to a 10 man squad.

Finally, i was wondering, where abouts is everyone situated? There might well be a couple of us near enough for a game some time, if theres enough within a certain area, it might even be worth getting a torny up.

[Bryn]

Depends who you play with. Near here, a lot of the people have fewer points than me (many being new to the game). More importantly, though, even people with a larger army might not want to play with everything at the same time, often for time-related reasons :smallwink:

Still, with 2000pts, you should get a chance to play with all of it reasonably often, but definitely not all the time. More than that and it becomes increasingly unlikely.

BTW, though it apparently isn't relevant, some probability calculations...
A = 1/6
B = 5/6
AA = 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36
AB = 1/6 * 5/6 = 5/36
BA = 5/6 * 1/6 = 5/36
BB = 5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36
That gives you an 11/36 chance to get at least one A, ever so slightly less than 1/3 (=12/36), and an 8/36 = 4/9 chance to get a single A only.


Finally, i was wondering, where abouts is everyone situated? There might well be a couple of us near enough for a game some time, if theres enough within a certain area, it might even be worth getting a torny up.http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2483/homefn8.png
I love GoogleSomerset, England

[Winterwind]

Nope (despite my smallest 40k army being 2k) it isnt that big, but you'll rarely use more than 1k or 1.5k if your playing at a gw and dont have to many close friends who play.Hmm... the guy at my local GW said the games typically played at their location ranged from 1k to 2k, and actually made it sound more as if 2k was played the most. I'll have check that - I mean, I intend to get this 2k army no matter what, just for the heck of it, but I'd much prefer to use it, too. :smallbiggrin:


Also, i believe you said somewhere that your army was about 3.4k at its intended size. Might have misremembered though.That was my estimate regarding how many points I would need to fit in everything that I want. Not what I intend to get for actual play, I realize how difficult it would be to find people to play that with. :smallwink:


Finally, i was wondering, where abouts is everyone situated? There might well be a couple of us near enough for a game some time, if theres enough within a certain area, it might even be worth getting a torny up.*points to the left*
I'm probably rather alone here, right? :smallfrown:


Depends who you play with. Near here, a lot of the people have fewer points than me (many being new to the game). More importantly, though, even people with a larger army might not want to play with everything at the same time, often for time-related reasons :smallwink:

Still, with 2000pts, you should get a chance to play with all of it reasonably often, but definitely not all the time. More than that and it becomes increasingly unlikely.That's, more or less, what I figured and hoped for.
Our local GW apparently has a long session every Monday, when they have open until 10 PM; is it possible to fit a 2k points-per-side game into 4-5 hours?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Finally, i was wondering, where abouts is everyone situated? There might well be a couple of us near enough for a game some time, if theres enough within a certain area, it might even be worth getting a torny up.

London, UK. It would be the first time I ventured outside my (admittedly large) local group, but frak it, university beckons and then I will have no free time EVER AGAIN.

I reckon apocalypse game would be better than anything. I still need to deliver on my promise to the Playground Misfits thread ...

[onasuma]

That was my estimate regarding how many points I would need to fit in everything that I want. Not what I intend to get for actual play, I realize how difficult it would be to find people to play that with. :smallwink:

*points to the left*
I'm probably rather alone here, right? :smallfrown:

Well, Id go to germany for a 3.7k apoc game with a mate. Well... maybe...

Oh yeah, Im SE london (uk) btw.

Edit @ /\: Yeah, an apoc game would probably be best (if we ever get stuff together).

[Winterwind]

Well, Id go to germany for a 3.7k apoc game with a mate. Well... maybe...Now this is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Before I even consider testing out this 'maybe', however, I still have to get that army in the first place, put it together and paint it... Chaos Gods alone know how long that might take me. :smallredface:
Speaking of which, what kind of glue should one ideally use for that? I read recently on a German WH40k page which I visited, amongst other purposes, exactly to find stuff like that out, that the glue sold by GW is not adviseable to use, is that true?
Also, is Apoc very different than normal games? Or is it just bigger scale, with some limits removed?

[xanaphia]

My biggest game ever was 6000 pt. Of course, I play with toy soldiers. That's actually legal now, with the Counts as rule in Apocalypse. I also make my own squad leaders out of paper, just for fun.

[Lorn]

Alright, I know this place might not be the best place to post it, but I don't want to start a new thread, and this isthe best place I could think of getting some help. I'm thinking of aking and Imperial guard Army, preferably lead by a Priest or a commissar. However, I've never played IG, and neither has anyone at my LGS. I have about $120 usd to my name for this little enterprise, and I was wondering if you guys could help me out in figurng out exactly what to buy. Thanks.
Firstly - I've heard people saying something about a new codex coming out next year, and judging by some of the apparent changes to other races, there is no telling what may or may not change.

Anyway. Under the current Codex... (remember to get the codex!)

First thing you'll notice, no matter what army you are using, what style it is, you HAVE to have exactly one command platoon. Yes, even if a HQ is not mandatory. Having said that, these are not bad choices; support squads, special weapons, giving a LOT of units their leadership etc makes them a fairly versatile unit. The Guard army is fairly simplistic in this way - you don't get a choice about unit numbers like you would for, say, Eldar. Five men (inc. Officer) per command squad. Ten men per Infantry platoon.

Second thing you'll notice, if you aren't using Doctrines/Schaeffer's Last Chancers you will HAVE to take at least one Infantry platoon. Again, though, these are decent units, with the ability to take more heavy weapons than I can count on one hand.

Third thing you will notice, you can get a lot of men on the field. Take a look at the Conscripts entry, at four points a model for a max of 150 models (split into three platoons and assuming you have the relevant Infantry platoons) you're doing quite nicely. Especially in rapidfire range...

Fourth, your average leadership score is 7. However, most units can take a vox-caster, allowing them to use an officer's leadership - boost every unit in the army's leadership to ten by taking a Heroic Senior Officer, a Commissar in his squad, and giving them a master-vox. Then, at +5 points per unit, they have Ld10. Conscripts do get the leadership aura thing, so keep a junior officer or something nearby just to keep them in the game.

Lastly... while they do look nice, tanks are not always the best way to go. 145 points for a minimally equipped Leman Russ is cutting quite deeply into your troops - you could almost get a basic platoon for that. There is a time and a place for tanks, don't go over the top. And remember, if all you're going to use a Leman Russ for is the battle cannon, it might be worth investing in a Basilisk instead. Lower armour, but hide it behind enough troops...

Lastly, sorry to say, but Commissars and Priests cannot lead armies. They can, however, act as advisors in your Commander's retinue (or many other places) so fluffwise, sure, they can lead. You just have to take an officer anyway.

As far as what to buy... hm. All I can really say is two Troops and a HQ. Don't know what things are worth in $.

However... three packs of normal Infantry, then three models to use as Officers (or one to use as your main Officer, the others are less important and can be represented by plastic models, possibly with extra stuff added... check your bitz box) will allow you to field a legal, if very poor, army.

It will get you:

Command squad.
Officer + 4 Guardsmen.

Platoon One Command
Junior Officer + 4 Guardsmen

Platoon One Squad One
Ten Guardsmen

Platoon One Sqad Two
Ten Guardsmen

Platoon Two Command
Junior Officer + 4 Guardsmen

Platoon Twp Squad One
Ten Guardsmen

Platoon Two Sqad Two
Ten Guardsmen

You will then have eight Guardsmen models left over, which can form a lot of things... special weapons squads for example.
Alternatively, with the eight spare men, you could just save them for the next two platoons/heavy weapon platoons/etc. You'll need to get a command squad from somewhere.

In pounds, this would cost £54 for all of the plastic models, and then no idea for the Officer; because, guess what, I can't find a Cadian officer by himself. However, if you want, just grab some sort of tank at the same time; there's an officer head on the sprue, can be combined with the plastics (it can be got through mail order) and all the tanks that I've got come with this... try a Chimera, it'll add some fire support and transport to your Officer or something. Depends how much you want to make your Officer stand out, really. I'm assuming you were looking at Cadians here, if you go Catachan then there's enough officers... depends which models you like better. It tends to influence the rest of your army quite a lot, and most of the GW plastics are Cadians. I tend to use Catachans as Conscripts, for what it's worth.

At some point, I highly advise branching out into heavy weapons. Annoyingly, they come in packs of one (and then get stupidly expensive) or packs of three (which then gives us problems if/when we want a multiple of five heavy weapons.) My advice when working that out? Use Excel, if you have the knowhow.

Anyway. Hope all that is helpful.

[evil_d4_swarm]

I have 2 questions:


What are the 'Ferocious Fangs' of the Kroot Hounds?
What do Disruption Pods look like?

[Illiterate Scribe]

What are the 'Ferocious Fangs' of the Kroot Hounds?

Close combat weapons (1).


What do Disruption Pods look like?


Well, the Tau Water Caste in the Inquisitor Game carried a man-portable disruption pod, that looked like this -

http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/images/bestiario/watercaste.jpg

Sorry for the blurry image.

[evil_d4_swarm]

Close combat weapons (1).



Well, the Tau Water Caste in the Inquisitor Game carried a man-portable disruption pod, that looked like this -

http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/images/bestiario/watercaste.jpg

Sorry for the blurry image.

1. Okay.
2. So... A multi-tracker without the tail?

[First Speaker]

1. Okay.
2. So... A multi-tracker without the tail?

Probably. I dunno the technology of the xenos filth. Note the large lens on the pod though.

[evil_d4_swarm]

I can cut up a lego stud and glue it on for the lense.

[Baxter190]

Thanks a lot Lorn, you've helped out a lot. I'm thinking I'm going to buy a Cadian battle force, codex, a shock trooper unit, and a command squad. Would this be worth it and under my budget?

[grinner666]

Battleforce + Command Squad + Shock Troopers would come to $160 if you buy them from GW. Maybe you'll want to look at eBay or this site:

http://store.miniwargaming.com/

It's not likely to reduce the price enough to bring it down to $120, but it'll help. A little.

If you divide up the heavy weapons teams among the Troops squads rather than turning them into a support squad for your HQ unit, it should give you almost, but not quite, enough extra models to create the officer squads for your two Troops choices. But I'm afraid you can't create a legal IG army for $120 if you buy from GW unless all you're taking is troops and HQ (three sets of Shock Troopers comes to $105, and as Lorn said you can turn the extra models into officers easily enough; but you'll have a pretty crappy army, with no heavy weapons and no worthwhile anti-tank special weapons).

:smallfrown:

Maybe you should not worry about having a complete army right now; if you're like most players/modelers, it'll be months before you've got all the models you purchase ... whatever you decide to buy ... built and painted. And as we all well know, painted models make their saves more often.

:smallbiggrin:

[onasuma]

Now this is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
Before I even consider testing out this 'maybe', however, I still have to get that army in the first place, put it together and paint it... Chaos Gods alone know how long that might take me. :smallredface:
Speaking of which, what kind of glue should one ideally use for that? I read recently on a German WH40k page which I visited, amongst other purposes, exactly to find stuff like that out, that the glue sold by GW is not adviseable to use, is that true?
Also, is Apoc very different than normal games? Or is it just bigger scale, with some limits removed?

Basically, ignore the force organisation chart, add in anything to big to use in regular games of warhammer (be that due to rules or due to it never making its points back) and you have apocolypse.

[Lorn]

Finally, i was wondering, where abouts is everyone situated? There might well be a couple of us near enough for a game some time, if theres enough within a certain area, it might even be worth getting a torny up.
Northeast England... specifically, Durham.

If I was to travel for a big game/tourney etc, it'd have to be a case of a few days away, and I'm in 6th form and thus lack monies. Would need a couple months notice - travel money, accomodation etc.

Still, assuming I could afford it I'd definitely be up for it :)


Thanks a lot Lorn, you've helped out a lot. I'm thinking I'm going to buy a Cadian battle force, codex, a shock trooper unit, and a command squad. Would this be worth it and under my budget?
No problem - and I'd take griner's advice. Don't worry about getting a full army just yet. Get things painted, made, add to it over a while until you have a legal army, add heavy weapons etc... the army I showed you is a really bad one, the highest Strength weaponry is a krak grenade launcher at S6. Not so good. However, you'll likely outnumber any army with the same points, aside from 'Nids...

[onasuma]

I think its the same/similar situation for all of us. I dont know about Scribe, but the rest of the playgrounders from the uk, who are into warhammer whom i know are pretty close to that, if not identicle.

[Lorn]

I think its the same/similar situation for all of us. I dont know about Scribe, but the rest of the playgrounders from the uk, who are into warhammer whom i know are pretty close to that, if not identicle.
Thought that might be the case :/

We'd need to plan out a good location first, that's the thing. Where could we find enough space/game tables to get a fair few games in, preferably without other people nicking them? Where would we sleep? How many people would end up going, and how would this affect both of the other two things? How would we transport armies along?


I'd be interested if there were a few people coming along... enough for a good laugh at the games table or at the pub, or more allowing for a mini-tourney etc.

[onasuma]

Well, Isnt there a playground meet up in jan some time? That probably fills some of the criteria for it. Transport wise, the gamesworkshop backpack things, while stupidly expensive, are very good for that sort of thing.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I do remember from my Inquisitor days that World of Games Workshop (or whatever it's called) in Nottingham has a ton of free tables, and, if you call ahead, you may well get one. That seems reasonably central - it's maybe 2-3 hours from where I am by train.

It also has the advantage of being more 'official', and having stuff there.

[Bryn]

Warhammer World... which is apparently found here (http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/directions_to_warhammer_world.pdf).

Google says that's 3 hours from where I am. I'd probably be able to get there if I rounded up a bunch of friends :smallamused:

[Illiterate Scribe]

That's the one. Haven't been there in ages.

Anyway:


The best way to enjoy Warhammer World is to bring along an army and spoil yourself and your friends with one of our superb gaming tables. If there are more than a couple of people coming up, then its always best to give us a call so that we can reserve some tables for you.

Imma up for an apocalypse game. More than partially to gawp at Z-Axis great mountain of Forge World stuff, but I think it would be pretty awesome.

[Lorn]

I'm up for it, assuming I can get transport sorted. Would we be looking at a one day thing or an overnight thing (thus allowing people of the correct age to go to Bugman's Bar?) A three hour train journey carrying an army, well... yeah.

So long as we don't mind sharing travel lodge rooms, I think you can book them for about £20 if you book early :p

Also - "when" is a very important part of the discussion. I can't do January at all, what with exams and stuff. Can do certain weekends in Feb, but it could be complicated. March, AFAIK, is totally free though :)



Also - as far as Apocalypse goes, how about just a big game of Imperial VS non-Imperial? Heh.

[Paul H]

...................
@ Paul H: Doesnt your GW have a vetern night? Thats usually a decent place to find non-children players for a sizable game. Also, chaos can still take special heavy weapons, normal marines got nerfed in a manner to stop them using special/heavy weapons until it gets to a 10 man squad.



Hi

Yes - Veteran Night is now on Thurs, (used to be Weds), my roleplaying night.

My point about heavy weapons was that I'm trying to build a Noisemarine army, with only sonic weapons as a concept. Hvy Wpn squads aren't allowed Blastmasters. (Just basic squads).

Got an awful lot of money tied up in GW products that I never use. Don't want to get rid of them either, since it's all good kit.

Space Marine Epic:
12,000pts IG + titans
14,000pts Eldar + 7 titans
Squat 2000 pts (or more) + landtrains, collossi, etc
12,000pts Marines (about 4000 pts crossover with IG, plus their titans)
Note - still got company cards from Space Marine, plus rulebook for Armageddon

Gothic:
5 Cruisers
32 Escorts

Warmaster:
2000 pts Undead

W40K:
2000pts (Approx)Noisemarines
Some IG stuff

Warhammer:
1500-2000pts Slaanesh Daemons

No-one round here uses this anymore, and GW only tend to support 'core' games. Anyone near Gloucester (UK) fancy a game then please PM me!

Cheers
Paul H
Desperate for a game :smalleek:

[onasuma]

Warhammer world seems good, not to far away, and my mums got a few friends around there as well, so i might even be able to scronge a lift.
Army wise, if we get 6 people 1500 each (the extra two possibly being askaris [who doesnt post here much] and apelord)? I dont know how big everyone is though, so that might be off a bit.
Army wise, the ones i could use are my chaos marines, my nids or (if 1500) my space marines can just be streched to that.

[First Speaker]

1500 points

Oh, I know exactly what I'm bringing. :smallamused:

To be honest, I'd probably find it easier just getting up there and back in one day. Mit student railcard, not too expensive to stretch that to two, either.

Also, vis a vis points - it would be better, I think, to get into the apocalypse 'bring everything you have' spirit - I'm sure we'd have enough.

[grinner666]

Bringing the conversation back to tactics ... :smallwink:

I'm thinking of expanding my Eldar army with money I got for Twistmas. What I have now is:

Farseer
25 Wraithguard and 3 Warlocks (two ten-man Troops choices and one five-man Elites choice)
Wave Serpent (for the 5-man Wraithguard squad)
20 Guardians with Eldar Missile Launcher platform
5 Rangers (if I can find the damned things ...) :smallmad:
5-man Dark Reapers squad incl. Exarch with Missile Launcher
Falcon (I'd bought it planning to turn it into a WS using a White Dwarf article, but then they came out with a WS model)

I know I need Warlocks to form a bodyguard for the Farseer and I know I want a Wraithlord ... just because Iyanden wouldn't be Iyanden without at least one. Now I'm wondering if I should get a Fast Attack choice, more Troops (Guardian Jetbikes, maybe?) or maybe a six-man squad of Elites to put in the Falcon. I'm also thinking my second HQ choice has to be Prince Yriel. He rocks. Should I, in fact turn the Falcon into a second Wave Serpent, or dump it entirely, and pick up a second Wraithlord? Any ideas, anyone?

:smallbiggrin:

[onasuma]

Oh, I know exactly what I'm bringing. :smallamused:

To be honest, I'd probably find it easier just getting up there and back in one day. Mit student railcard, not too expensive to stretch that to two, either.

Also, vis a vis points - it would be better, I think, to get into the apocalypse 'bring everything you have' spirit - I'm sure we'd have enough.

If i brought everything i had, even only if it were my chaos, Id be screwed beyong belief, carrying a dozen tanks and walkers, a super heavy, 40 infantry and a dozen terminators just for my chaos. Then all my spawn and daemons and it'd just be stupid.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Farseer
25 Wraithguard and 3 Warlocks (two ten-man Troops choices and one five-man Elites choice)
Wave Serpent (for the 5-man Wraithguard squad)
20 Guardians with Eldar Missile Launcher platform
5 Rangers (if I can find the damned things ...) :smallmad:
5-man Dark Reapers squad incl. Exarch with Missile Launcher
Falcon (I'd bought it planning to turn it into a WS using a White Dwarf article, but then they came out with a WS model)

I know I need Warlocks to form a bodyguard for the Farseer and I know I want a Wraithlord ... just because Iyanden wouldn't be Iyanden without at least one. Now I'm wondering if I should get a Fast Attack choice, more Troops (Guardian Jetbikes, maybe?) or maybe a six-man squad of Elites to put in the Falcon. I'm also thinking my second HQ choice has to be Prince Yriel. He rocks. Any ideas, anyone?

:smallbiggrin:

Y'riel's arguably a bit of a waste of points, if you ask me. Sure, his tactics ability makes him better than most CC leaders, and the Spear of Twilight is pretty nice, but in Horde-Hammer 5E, he's gonna either get swarmed, or ID'd by surprise hidden powerfist.

I'd say you're a little low on long-range support - the reapers will help, but you've only got three things that are going to worry any sort of gunline (Tau, Guard, even Marines) army. A squad of fire dragons to leap out of the falcon and melta any Leman Russ that's killing ~3 wraithguard/turn, or lay down the hurt on some terminators would be nice, but what about Vypers or Fire Prisms? The latter particularly could be of use, since S5 AP4 large blasts are going to seriously worry nids, guard, or orkz, and concentrated fire gives you a lascannon with blast.


If i brought everything i had, even only if it were my chaos, Id be screwed beyong belief, carrying a dozen tanks and walkers, a super heavy, 40 infantry and a dozen terminators just for my chaos. Then all my spawn and daemons and it'd just be stupid.

Aww, suffer for our amusement, Onasuma! :smalltongue: Seriously, we'll find out who's available, and when, and then think about points - so far, we'd be looking at

Illiterate Scribe
Onasuma
Z-Axis
Lorn
Askaris?
Apelord69?

[Winterwind]

I might consider visiting the beautiful United Kingdom as well... all depending on a number of factors, including (but not limited to) whether work leaves me time for that, whether my army is ready by then, how long this event would be (long enough to justify the journey, short enough to not necessitate me giving up my studies :smallwink:), money, etc.
So a rather big maybe in my case. :smallwink:

[starwoof]

I want to go... but I live about as far away as you can get from the UK and not get closer.:smallyuk:


Does anyone have any tips for bikers? I've got all these swanky new biker guys and they keep dieing. My army is mostly vehicle based, so maybe I should be using rhinos as a screen or something?

[grinner666]

Y'riel's arguably a bit of a waste of points, if you ask me. Sure, his tactics ability makes him better than most CC leaders, and the Spear of Twilight is pretty nice, but in Horde-Hammer 5E, he's gonna either get swarmed, or ID'd by surprise hidden powerfist.

You misunderstood. Yriel will be my second HQ choice. He's an Iyanden commander and this is an Iyanden army. It's where he belongs. Besides, if I didn't take at least one *slightly* vulnerable CC IC my brother-in-law would kill me for suggesting he take a Terminator Lord with Daemon Weapon for his Chaos army. :smallwink:


I'd say you're a little low on long-range support - the reapers will help, but you've only got three things that are going to worry any sort of gunline (Tau, Guard, even Marines) army. A squad of fire dragons to leap out of the falcon and melta any Leman Russ that's killing ~3 wraithguard/turn, or lay down the hurt on some terminators would be nice, but what about Vypers or Fire Prisms? The latter particularly could be of use, since S5 AP4 large blasts are going to seriously worry nids, guard, or orkz, and concentrated fire gives you a lascannon with blast.

Good points, though I loathe the Vyper (terrible AV) and if I get a Wraithlord I'll need to give up my Falcon's transport capacity to get a Fire Prism. I was actually kinda counting on that five-man Wraithguard squad in the Wave Serpent for antitank duties. Crap. Now I don't know what the heck to do. Maybe I need a Vyper squad whether I want it or not ...

I must point out one thing, though. Marines (or at least their players) hate and fear ten-man Wraithguard squads. 'Least they do when I play 'em ...

:smalltongue:


Does anyone have any tips for bikers? I've got all these swanky new biker guys and they keep dieing. My army is mostly vehicle based, so maybe I should be using rhinos as a screen or something?

Cover is your friend. Of course, you might consider using the cover on the battlefield rather than hiding behind your admittedly cheap but very fragile Rhinos. :smallwink:

Also, decide on a specific mission for your Bike squad and stick to that mission. As an example my SM bike squad is my premiere tank hunting unit, so I've got an Attack Bike with a Multi-melta and (finally!) two meltaguns ... and that's (usually) all they do, hunt tanks ... at least until the tanks are all off the field. If it was an infantry-hunting team, they'd be armed with plasma guns and heavy bolter.

:smallbiggrin:

[onasuma]

Hmm... I have a fluff related question here, for some of you older players of the game: What exactly was the red terror (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300162&prodId=prod1110279)? Id assume it was some kind of massive ravenger, but id like to know, mainly to see if i can justify using its model (or at least part of it) in a couple of tyrant guard things, but also because tyranids intrege me.

[First Speaker]

It was in the 3E Tyranids codex, all I can remember about it is that it had a 'swallow whole' ability if it hit with more than, I dunno, a few times. It was based on the Ravener genus, but I'm sure any right-thinking person would allow you to use it as a tyrant guard, although you may want to bulk it up a bit to represent its ... well, guardness.

[starwoof]

I use the red terror ganking some steel legion as my desktop.:smallbiggrin: I have this carnifex that I keep meaning to turn into a really huge red terror...

[Erloas]

Well Grinner666 I know we have fairly different ideas on how to run Eldar, but it seems to me like you are missing a lot of speed and a fair amount of anti-horde.

With the guardians with the weapon platform and a good choice of weapons for the wave serpent and falcon, you have some decent anti-tank, and really good anti-tank if you can get your wraithguard into range. It would all likewise be pretty good anti-MEQ. The wraithlord(s) you are getting fit here too.

Since the large wraithguard units can't be transported its going to take a while to get them into range.

I would say either a unit of scorpions for the falcon, or a larger unit and another wave serpent for them.

The other option is a unit or two of either small (3) or medium sized (6) of jetbikes. I found them incrediably useful in my games so far. With a shurikien cannon or two in a unit they can be dangerous to just about anything, and with their extra assult-phase move they are easy to shoot and hide at the same time. At very least they demand enough attention from your opponent that they will not allow them to focus entirely on your very expensive and somewhat slow wraithguard units.

I think you are probably ok with long range support as you are. In the end long range support isn't a huge amount different then short range support that can get there very quickly.

I'm not sure how the jetbikes would compare to the vypers in terms of survivability, I think overall the jetbikes would come out ahead against most things though.

[Baxter190]

Ok, so I've bought the cadian force, a box of twenty troopers, a codex, a command squad. I'm thinking of getting either some snipers or a sactioned psyker. Which should I get?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Leman Russ. Every guard army needs more Leman Russ over anything else until all HS slots are filled.

Or maybe basilisks.
For a sensible answer, I think snipers are probably better. Or what about some heavy weapons?

[evil_d4_swarm]

Hey playgrounders, I was just looking over my army list and discovered that I was nearly 200 (!) points over.

I have cut it down to 1999 points now, and would anybody who would like to please look over it again to find any gaping (and any not so gaping) holes in the build?


http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/e1e380d5.png


The ones in bold are already bought or built, so I cannot swap those out.

[grinner666]

Well Grinner666 I know we have fairly different ideas on how to run Eldar, but it seems to me like you are missing a lot of speed and a fair amount of anti-horde.

Yeah, my Eldar are more like tough, expensive Space Marines with weird weaponry. My Space Marines, on the other hand, are a lot like tough, slightly slow Eldar. :smallbiggrin:


With the guardians with the weapon platform and a good choice of weapons for the wave serpent and falcon, you have some decent anti-tank, and really good anti-tank if you can get your wraithguard into range. It would all likewise be pretty good anti-MEQ. The wraithlord(s) you are getting fit here too.

The Wave Serpent's got twin-linked Starcannon and a Shuriken Cannon. Anti-personnel weaponry for defending the Wraithguard against assault and taking out light vehicles; that way they can concentrate on tanks. The Wraithlords' armament will depend on who they're fighting ... I plan on (eventually) having more than just the one(s) I put on the table. Probably Starcannon and Bright Lance against enemies like Space Marines and Scatter Laser and Missile Launcher or Shuriken Cannon against horde-type armies.


I would say either a unit of scorpions for the falcon, or a larger unit and another wave serpent for them.

Dumping their very few still-living soldiers into Assault combats isn't something an Iyanden Farseer or Autarch is really likely to want to do, though. But if I do go with a dedicated Assault unit, I'm more likely to get Howling Banshees for the time being; I'm mostly fighting my brother-in-law's Chaos Marines right now, and the Banshees are the Eldar's only source of power weapons. If I ever end up fighting a lightly armored force again, I'll think about getting Scorpions. Also about pulling out my Shadow Weaver battery again. AND getting that Fire Prism. For the time being, though, I have no need to worry about hordes.

I keep thinking transforming that Falcon into a second Wave Serpent is really the way to go.


The other option is a unit or two of either small (3) or medium sized (6) of jetbikes. I found them incrediably useful in my games so far. With a shurikien cannon or two in a unit they can be dangerous to just about anything, and with their extra assult-phase move they are easy to shoot and hide at the same time. At very least they demand enough attention from your opponent that they will not allow them to focus entirely on your very expensive and somewhat slow wraithguard units.

I think you are probably ok with long range support as you are. In the end long range support isn't a huge amount different then short range support that can get there very quickly.

I'm not sure how the jetbikes would compare to the vypers in terms of survivability, I think overall the jetbikes would come out ahead against most things though.

I've been thinking Jetbike Guardians, too, for much the same reasons. I'd completely forgotten that they get an extra Assault move, though. They're certainly as survivable as SM Bikes, and I've been using them to good effect for eight years now. I just wish they came in squads rather than ONLY singly.

In fact, now that I think of it my Dark Eldar Jetbikes are my favorite part of that army, too ...

:smallsmile:

[Erloas]

Well if you can still find it I would look for the Windrider Host apoc box. It is about half their normal price, and actually the box itself is less then just the 9 jetbikes on their own, with the option of the vypers and the autarch on jetbike being basiclly "free."

Since I had a lot of shuriken cannons left over from the wave serpents, weapon platforms, and vyper bikes I had plenty to use for conversions. Especially considering that its not all that great of an option for the normal vehicles anyway.

I'll try to get around to taking some pictures of them tomorrow or over the weekend.

I've had good luck so far running them in 3 units of 3, but if I have a troop limitation I think they could also do well at units of 6 and 3. It seems that just 3 (single cannon) is enough most of the time to keep most vehicles from shooting, since its really easy to get a side shot first turn and rear shots every turn after that, on most targets there is a pretty good chance of at very least keeping them from shooting.

[grinner666]

Hmmmm. The Windrider Host is still available at the GW website but I've already got four Troops choices in my army and was thinking about splitting my Guardians if I decided to turn my Falcon into a Wave Serpent, which would make it five. Besides, I didn't really want to spend $125 on jetbikes.

:smallamused:

Maybe it's time to consider a unit or two of Shining Spears ... or I could always take a BIG Jetbike squadron ... you can take up to ten, right?

:smallsmile:

EDIT: No, twelve!! Hell, maybe I can turn that Autarch into a Warlock ...

:smallbiggrin:

[Da King]

Ok, so I've bought the cadian force, a box of twenty troopers, a codex, a command squad. I'm thinking of getting either some snipers or a sactioned psyker. Which should I get?

I'd recommend at least another 20 shock troops and an officer blister so you can make command squads for infantry platoons.

[grinner666]

Ok, so I've bought the cadian force, a box of twenty troopers, a codex, a command squad. I'm thinking of getting either some snipers or a sactioned psyker. Which should I get?

If it's one or the other, I'd get the snipers. Don't get me wrong, I love Sanctioned Psykers, but they aren't as useful as a Commissar to your army ... they should be much further down on your priorities list ... after Commissars, Leman Russ tanks, Hellhounds, Stormtroopers, Ogryns, Heavy Weapons teams ...

If I were you, though, I'd consider getting some Commissars first if you're on a limited budget. You can get 'em cheap by buying Mordian Sergeants (all Mordians look just like Commissars) from the Collectors' section at the GW website. Or a couple of Officer models. If you divide up your heavy weapons among your infantry squads, you should have enough troopers left over to create one more command squad and half of another, but you will need officer models. Actually, two special weapons troopers and two officers will give you enough models to create all the command squads you need ... again, assuming you've got six extra models because you've protected your heavy weapons teams by putting them in regular Infantry platoons.

Yeah, go with an officer blister pack and a special weapons blister pack.

:smallbiggrin:

THEN start looking for some big, heavy machines to take some of the heat off your poor bloody infantry!!!

:smallsmile:

EDIT: BTW I love snipers ... wish GW would create an Elites choice of HUMAN snipers instead of those damned Ratlings ... and they make a nice Special Weapons squad, but you need a few more extra troopers first so you can add some lasgun-armed soldiers to the squad.

[Baxter190]

Ok, so I should get another pack of twenty men I take it? Would they come with the junior officer's I need?

[evil_d4_swarm]

BTW I love snipers ... wish GW would create an Elites choice of HUMAN snipers instead of those damned Ratlings ... and they make a nice Special Weapons squad, but you need a few more extra troopers first so you can add some lasgun-armed soldiers to the squad.

The Vostroyans have troop choice human snipers.

[grinner666]

Ok, so I should get another pack of twenty men I take it? Would they come with the junior officer's I need?

See below:


Yeah, go with an officer blister pack and a special weapons blister pack.

That's all you really need to make up your Officer complement at this point.


The Vostroyans have troop choice human snipers.

First, they're a TROOPS choice, not an Elites choice. If I was playing IG I'd want my Troops choices to include lots and lots of guardsmen, not a few snipers. Second, I don't see them in my IG codex, it must be outdated or it just doesn't include Vostroyans. Third, as Troops choices they've got the usual crappy IG BS of 3. Not acceptable.

Every Elites choice has one "Skill" rating (their specialty) of 4 and the other "Skill" rating is 3 ... and its TOUGHNESS is at least 3 ... except the Ratlings. By comparison the Ratlings suck out loud.

So does any BS3 sniper unit. One shot per turn at BS3 means you're only going to hit your target three times in the average game. Again, unacceptable.

[Baxter190]

K. So an officer blister pack and another special weapon blister pack.

[grinner666]

Well that's all you need to get enough HQ troopers. If you want to buy the extra 20 troopers, I'm sure you could turn the sergeants into junior officers ... and turn the rest of the models into a couple of under-strength squads. I just thought you were on a budget and had already exceeded it.

:smallsmile:

Also, you won't get meltaguns or plasma guns in a regular Troopers box.

:smallbiggrin:

[Baxter190]

I am on a budget, but I can afford to be loose with it, but not too much. and the fact I got the battleforce and other stuff off of ebay didn't hurt too much: smallwink:

[grinner666]

*grins* Glad you managed to find some deals, then. But again: you don't get meltaguns or plasma guns in the normal Troopers box.

:smallwink:

You want meltaguns. Probably plasma guns, too.

:smallbiggrin:

[onasuma]

It was in the 3E Tyranids codex, all I can remember about it is that it had a 'swallow whole' ability if it hit with more than, I dunno, a few times. It was based on the Ravener genus, but I'm sure any right-thinking person would allow you to use it as a tyrant guard, although you may want to bulk it up a bit to represent its ... well, guardness.

Well, Im working on a few data sheets at the moment, one of which is a tyrant which has a ravanger body, rather than the standard leg array and i want to give him the option to take tyrant guard which is why i ask. Heck, i might even remove the upper body and use the upper half of a plastic carnefix.

[Lorn]

EDIT: BTW I love snipers ... wish GW would create an Elites choice of HUMAN snipers instead of those damned Ratlings ... and they make a nice Special Weapons squad, but you need a few more extra troopers first so you can add some lasgun-armed soldiers to the squad.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you just using human-sized models... the lower S/T could perhaps be the reason they're snipers and not normal infantry, Go to Ground could be cameoline cloaks etc.


First, they're a TROOPS choice, not an Elites choice. If I was playing IG I'd want my Troops choices to include lots and lots of guardsmen, not a few snipers. Second, I don't see them in my IG codex, it must be outdated or it just doesn't include Vostroyans. Third, as Troops choices they've got the usual crappy IG BS of 3. Not acceptable.

Every Elites choice has one "Skill" rating (their specialty) of 4 and the other "Skill" rating is 3 ... and its TOUGHNESS is at least 3 ... except the Ratlings. By comparison the Ratlings suck out loud.

So does any BS3 sniper unit. One shot per turn at BS3 means you're only going to hit your target three times in the average game. Again, unacceptable.
To be fair, the IG codex has not been updated for two entire editions of WH40K now. The old sniper rules - IE, hit on a 2 and wound on a 4 - are no longer in effect, so of course they're less good than they were before.
Secondly, while Ratlings do have a lower Toughess, they also get better cover saves - so they do actually have some survivability.
And there's no (AFAIK) official army list for Vostroyans. I think you're meant to use Doctrines, but even then... I'd have imagined Carapace Armour, and if they have snipers in their Troops then they can't have that. Not sure what's up there, maybe there will be extra rules when the new Codex eventually comes out.
Just looked at the Imperial Guard troops bit of the GW site. It seems to have all snipers listed there, which is understandable, to be fair. Cadian ones, Catachan ones (these models are amazing, and the Deathworld Veteran rules for them were pretty cool) and Vostroyans; they also have special weapons in there though. You can use either in a Troops choice (albeit with the right Doctrines) and you can use both in certain other areas of the list - Guard have a really strange structure compared to other armies.

[Erloas]

Hmmmm. The Windrider Host is still available at the GW website but I've already got four Troops choices in my army and was thinking about splitting my Guardians if I decided to turn my Falcon into a Wave Serpent, which would make it five. Besides, I didn't really want to spend $125 on jetbikes.

:smallamused:

Maybe it's time to consider a unit or two of Shining Spears ... or I could always take a BIG Jetbike squadron ... you can take up to ten, right?

:smallsmile:

EDIT: No, twelve!! Hell, maybe I can turn that Autarch into a Warlock ...

:smallbiggrin:

How the bikes are made it is also really easy to just put a pin up the riders rear and stick them on the bike without having to glue them in place. Which means it wouldn't take a lot of work to change out the riders if you wanted to use a seer council on jetbikes too, of course you still need all the warlocks but at least the jetbikes are covered.

In terms of the troop choices you always have the option of running the wraithguard as either elite or troop, so if you do run out of troop choices you could just move one to elite and you would be fine. Its not like you are using a lot of aspect warriors anyway.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Dumping their very few still-living soldiers into Assault combats isn't something an Iyanden Farseer or Autarch is really likely to want to do, though. But if I do go with a dedicated Assault unit, I'm more likely to get Howling Banshees for the time being; I'm mostly fighting my brother-in-law's Chaos Marines right now, and the Banshees are the Eldar's only source of power weapons. If I ever end up fighting a lightly armored force again, I'll think about getting Scorpions. Also about pulling out my Shadow Weaver battery again. AND getting that Fire Prism. For the time being, though, I have no need to worry about hordes.

You really shouldn't discount Scorpions so quickly. S4 and 3+ Armor is no laughing matter against regular Marines, and between their Mandiblasters and Biting Blades (+1 STR per hit? Yes please!) they can overwhelm non-CC Marines in short order.

Of course, as an Iyanden Army, you're going to spend most of your time keeping your army the hell away from Assault Marines anyhow :smalltongue:

If you use Banshees (which, IMHO, fit aesthetically with Iyanden's color scheme) then be sure to cart along a Farseer with Doom, or your S3 Power Blades aren't going to do anything against the T4, S4 Marines.

Y'know what might be a good addition though? War Walkers. Slap on some Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers and you'll have a nice mobile firebase to allow your Wraithguard to move into position unmolested. In any case, you're going to need something to keep your Wraithguard out of CC.

[grinner666]

You really shouldn't discount Scorpions so quickly. S4 and 3+ Armor is no laughing matter against regular Marines, and between their Mandiblasters and Biting Blades (+1 STR per hit? Yes please!) they can overwhelm non-CC Marines in short order.

Of course, as an Iyanden Army, you're going to spend most of your time keeping your army the hell away from Assault Marines anyhow :smalltongue:

If you use Banshees (which, IMHO, fit aesthetically with Iyanden's color scheme) then be sure to cart along a Farseer with Doom, or your S3 Power Blades aren't going to do anything against the T4, S4 Marines.

S4 means Striking Scorpions wound Space Marines half the time. Then two thirds of those wounds are negated by armor. That means only one hit in six is actually going to achieve a wound. On the other hand, Banshees wound one-third of the time with no armor save. And always go first in the first round of the assault. Striking Scorpions just can't compete with numbers like that against those kinds of saves, even with the extra attack provided by the Mandiblasters. Against more lightly-armored troops they're the way to go. But not against Space Marines. Besides, I like the War Shout skill. :smallwink:

But the more I think about it, the more I think Shining Spears is the way to go for a dedicated assault force ... assuming I decide I want a dedicated assault force.


Y'know what might be a good addition though? War Walkers. Slap on some Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers and you'll have a nice mobile firebase to allow your Wraithguard to move into position unmolested. In any case, you're going to need something to keep your Wraithguard out of CC.

First, the Wraithguard are perfectly capable of keeping the Wraithguard out of assault combat ... or at least thinning out most squads to the point where they're only likely to be IN the assault for a turn or so. They're stronger, MUCH tougher, and quite likely to win most assaults (I love T6 models ... hell, I loved the Wraithguard back in 3E when they only had T5!!).

Second, War Walkers have the same problems as both Vypers and Fire Prisms. They're exceedingly fragile (though thankfully no longer open-topped) and they take up a Heavy Support choice, something I can't spare except in Armageddon games.

Here's what I'm going to do with my Heavy Support choices: kit-bash my Falcon into a Wave Serpent (IMO the best Eldar tank anyway) and either assign it to my Dark Reapers, split my Guardian squad or (eventually) buy some other squad to assign to it, then buy two Wraithlords, which will perform the same function as a War Walker squadron but without being vulnerable to frikkin' Bolter fire ... and with the benefit of actually being pretty damn awesome in assault combat, if it comes to that.

I'll eventually pick up a Fire Prism for use against horde armies; in the meantime I can always trade one of the Wraithlords or the Dark Reapers squad for my Shadow Weaver battery. Not the best unit for wiping out huge squads, but it'll do for now. :smallsmile:

Now I need to figure out what kind of Jetbike squad I want ...

I love army building as much as I do the battles!!!!!!

:smallbiggrin:

[Zorg]

S4 means Striking Scorpions wound Space Marines half the time. Then two thirds of those wounds are negated by armor. That means only one hit in six is actually going to achieve a wound. On the other hand, Banshees wound one-third of the time with no armor save. And always go first in the first round of the assault. Striking Scorpions just can't compete with numbers like that against those kinds of saves, even with the extra attack provided by the Mandiblasters. Against more lightly-armored troops they're the way to go. But not against Space Marines. Besides, I like the War Shout skill. :smallwink:

Aye, but there's also the flip side that Banshees are far more susceptable to marine weapons - especially heavy bolters and whirlwinds which I always field against eldar. A predator destructor / whirlwind combo does nasty things to eldar infantry with all its AP4 goodness.

Of course there are transports and such to protect them, but as a marine player scorpions can give me headaches too, if only that they're harder to kill than one good whirlwind volley.

Another thing to watch out for in general are that marines can now get a few +3 invun saves units in thunder hammer assault terminators and legion of the dammed (and command squads with storm sheilds). Neither are ideal counter charge (thunder hammer termies being I1, LotD being slow), but they're hard to kill and I'd rather see them take the initiative than something else get hit.

[grinner666]

Aye, but there's also the flip side that Banshees are far more susceptable to marine weapons - especially heavy bolters and whirlwinds which I always field against eldar. A predator destructor / whirlwind combo does nasty things to eldar infantry with all its AP4 goodness.

Of course there are transports and such to protect them, but as a marine player scorpions can give me headaches too, if only that they're harder to kill than one good whirlwind volley.

Another thing to watch out for in general are that marines can now get a few +3 invun saves units in thunder hammer assault terminators and legion of the dammed (and command squads with storm sheilds). Neither are ideal counter charge (thunder hammer termies being I1, LotD being slow), but they're hard to kill and I'd rather see them take the initiative than something else get hit.

Hmmmm. If you take a look up the thread you'll see that this discussion started when I asked for advice about getting a unit to place in my Falcon. Things have ... evolved since then, but of course any Assault unit not equipped with jetpacks or bikes needs to be mounted in a transport ... preferably an Eldar transport. :smallwink:

And don't get me started on storm shields ... I frakkin' hate storm shields. Best thing to do about 'em is ignore 'em and hope they go away. Anyway, you're right; not the best thing to assault. Far better to shoot at 'em with a squad of ten AP2 firearms and hope that takes a few of them out.

:smallyuk:

[Winterwind]

I was wondering... would the following be a viable list for 1000 point games?


{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|7 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Khorne, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer; 1 powerfist, meltabombs|215
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile-launcher|50
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
||
Total:|999[/table]
I realize that's very few models (a trait all of my lists seem to share), but I like that it contains only troops devoted to Chaos Gods who get along just fine with each other, all units with a number of models favoured by the Gods in question, and, most amusingly, I would put all infantery into Rhinos and end up with a fully motorized army (so this could be, say, the scout forces for a bigger army or something like that).
All in all, I rather like it fluff-wise... but would it be at all viable in play?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I was wondering... would the following be a viable list for 1000 point games?


{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|7 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Khorne, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer; 1 powerfist, meltabombs|215
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile-launcher|50
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
||
Total:|999[/table]
I realize that's very few models (a trait all of my lists seem to share), but I like that it contains only troops devoted to Chaos Gods who get along just fine with each other, all units with a number of models favoured by the Gods in question, and, most amusingly, I would put all infantery into Rhinos and end up with a fully motorized army (so this could be, say, the scout forces for a bigger army or something like that).
All in all, I rather like it fluff-wise... but would it be at all viable in play?

Hmm ... that is very people - also, your Lord can't ride in the Rhino, due to his armour. Ditch that, at least - possibly run with some havocs, to boost your anti-tank capacity? Can they still take special, as opposed to heavy, weapons?

[starwoof]

Your lord needs to be either on a bike or on foot. Right now he basically has to run around alone unless you don't want your foot troops using their rhinos. Also consider removing the lascannon from your khornate marines, because if they are trying to engage the enemy you will never get to fire it. Remember that when firing from a vehicle you count as moving if it moves.

Mechanization is awesome though, thats how I roll in all games. ;P

EDIT: Ninja'd.


possibly run with some havocs, to boost your anti-tank capacity? Can they still take special, as opposed to heavy, weapons?
Yes they can.

[grinner666]

I was wondering... would the following be a viable list for 1000 point games?


{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|7 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Khorne, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer; 1 powerfist, meltabombs|215
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile-launcher|50
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
||
Total:|999[/table]
I realize that's very few models (a trait all of my lists seem to share), but I like that it contains only troops devoted to Chaos Gods who get along just fine with each other, all units with a number of models favoured by the Gods in question, and, most amusingly, I would put all infantery into Rhinos and end up with a fully motorized army (so this could be, say, the scout forces for a bigger army or something like that).
All in all, I rather like it fluff-wise... but would it be at all viable in play?

You can only take a heavy weapon in a Chaos Marines squad if it totals ten or more models. If you're looking for antitank capability you should either drop the lascannon, replace the flamer with a meltagun, and make up the rest of the points as best you may (maybe plasma pistol for the Khorne aspiring champion) or ignore what Khorne "likes" and find the points ... somewhere ... to build the unit up to ten men. Actually, if that's what you're looking for you may not want to give them a Khorne icon at all, as heavy weapons and antitank special weapons don't exactly say "I'm itching to climb into an assault". How about no icon, and an extra trooper?

[Killersquid]

Hey guys, I have a new idea for my Ork army instead of Boyz, boyz, and more boyz and rush. I'm going to run a Speed Freeks army, mostly using vehicles, Wazdakka, and a Big Mek. I'm making up a 1500 point list, but I have nothing bought for the army yet. I want to know if it is a viable tactic for orks to use vehicles over rushing with infantry. Also, how do I make a table on the forums?

[grinner666]

Of course speed freeks is a viable tactic. You'll want to fill your Trukks with Boyz, of course. :smallwink: Mostly a Speed Freeks army just means your Boyz are mounted in transports. Oh, and your Heavy Support should (probably) mostly be Battlewagonz and Looted Wagonz, and you'll probably avoid anything that doesn't move and shoot simultaneously.

Oh, and max out your Fast Attack choices ... including the squad size. Just 'cause, you know ... they go FAST.

:smallbiggrin:

[Killersquid]

Ok, revamped my army list a bit, here is the current incarnation.



HQ Wazdakka Gutsmek 160
Big Mek Kustom Force-Field, 3 Grot Oilers 90

Troop

11 Ork Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Big Shoota, Nob has big choppa, and ‘eavy armor 97
Trukk (as dedicated transport) Red paint job, stikkbomb chukka, grot riggers 50
6 Warbikers, one of them a Nob Nob has a power klaw and a bosspole 190
3 Warbikers, one a Nob Nob has a big choppa and a bosspole 95
3 warbikers, one a Nob Nob has a big choppa and a bosspole 95
11 Ork Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Big Shoota, Nob has Big Choppa, and ‘eavy armor 97
Trukk (as dedicated transport) Red paint job, stikkbomb chukka, grot riggers 50

Elites 12 Burna Boyz 180

Heavy Support

Battle Wagon Red paint job, Killcannon, grot riggers, armour plates, deff rolla, 4 big shootas, zzap gun 240

Fast Attack

2 Warbuggies and a Wartrakk 3 red paint jobs and grot riggers in all 3, 125
2 Deff Koptas 2 twin linked rokkit launchas, 2 big bomms 120
1499

[evil_d4_swarm]

I have 2 Hammerheads in my army, would it be viable to replace the railgun with an Ion Cannon? I would use to take out lightly-armored vehicle squadrons.

[Paul H]

You can only take a heavy weapon in a Chaos Marines squad if it totals ten or more models. If you're looking for antitank capability you should either drop the lascannon, replace the flamer with a meltagun, and make up the rest of the points as best you may (maybe plasma pistol for the Khorne aspiring champion) or ignore what Khorne "likes" and find the points ... somewhere ... to build the unit up to ten men. Actually, if that's what you're looking for you may not want to give them a Khorne icon at all, as heavy weapons and antitank special weapons don't exactly say "I'm itching to climb into an assault". How about no icon, and an extra trooper?

Hi

Noise Marines can take a Blastmaster per squad of 5+ marines (pg 97). The army I'm trying to build is just pure sonic weapons. The Blastmaster is only Str 8, but at least you can still move & fire on the alternate setting of Str 5.

The other advantage is Sonic Blasters being able to fire three times range 24", or twice at 24" if they move. Lots of small squads for flexibility, with plenty of firepower. Not so good against heavy armour though. :smalleek:

Only problem is the cost. Squad 5 Noise Marines, (4 c/w Sonic Blasters, 1 c/w Blastmaster, 15pts for champion) 175 pts. So 5 squads leaves only 125 pts for Lord in 1000pt army.

Cheers
Paul H

[grinner666]

Noise Marines aren't a Chaos Marines squad, they're a Noise Marines squad.

[Winterwind]

Hmm ... that is very people - also, your Lord can't ride in the Rhino, due to his armour. Ditch that, at least - possibly run with some havocs, to boost your anti-tank capacity? Can they still take special, as opposed to heavy, weapons?I realized that thing about the Lord and the Rhino this morning... ugh, this also disrupts my plans for the bigger army. Guess I'll have to get a Termi-squad and deepstrike when playing with a bigger army... and for this one, maybe I'll get a second Lord, this time on a bike...

More anti-tank capacity? Doesn't one lascannon, meltabombs on both troop-champions and two meltas on the Fast Attack squad suffice for that purpose? I was more worried about there not being enough to fight well armoured infantery, like plasmacannons and alike...

Havocs are always nice, but where could I possibly get the points for those from? Especially since, to keep the army's theme, I'd need another Rhino for them.
My bigger army lists already rely far more on Heavy Support than on Fast Attack; for this small one, I want to give this big Nurgle biker unit a time in the spotlight.


Your lord needs to be either on a bike or on foot. Right now he basically has to run around alone unless you don't want your foot troops using their rhinos. Also consider removing the lascannon from your khornate marines, because if they are trying to engage the enemy you will never get to fire it. Remember that when firing from a vehicle you count as moving if it moves.The lascannon was a remainder from the 1500/2000 points list, where this squad was much bigger (big enough for the cost of the icon no longer being all that significant compared to the cost of the entire unit) and sort of my general purpose squad... I could drop the lascannon (though that would leave me with practically no long-range dakka at all), or I go with grinner666's solution...


You can only take a heavy weapon in a Chaos Marines squad if it totals ten or more models. If you're looking for antitank capability you should either drop the lascannon, replace the flamer with a meltagun, and make up the rest of the points as best you may (maybe plasma pistol for the Khorne aspiring champion) or ignore what Khorne "likes" and find the points ... somewhere ... to build the unit up to ten men. Actually, if that's what you're looking for you may not want to give them a Khorne icon at all, as heavy weapons and antitank special weapons don't exactly say "I'm itching to climb into an assault". How about no icon, and an extra trooper?D'oh... and just yesterday, I urged myself to remember that rule, and I still managed to forget about it. :smallredface:
Me is no stoopid, me swear!

Sounds like an easily solved problem though, dropping the icon gives just enough points to bump the squad up to 10 models. *still ashamed*


Noise Marines can take a Blastmaster per squad of 5+ marines (pg 97). The army I'm trying to build is just pure sonic weapons. The Blastmaster is only Str 8, but at least you can still move & fire on the alternate setting of Str 5.

The other advantage is Sonic Blasters being able to fire three times range 24", or twice at 24" if they move. Lots of small squads for flexibility, with plenty of firepower. Not so good against heavy armour though. :smalleek:

Only problem is the cost. Squad 5 Noise Marines, (4 c/w Sonic Blasters, 1 c/w Blastmaster, 15pts for champion) 175 pts. So 5 squads leaves only 125 pts for Lord in 1000pt army.I don't want to use Slaaneshi troops side by side with Khornate ones, unless I manage to fit in all four Gods somehow*1. I guess I could replace the berzerkers with Noise Marines and take off the icon of the Khornate marines, a squad of 6 Noise Marines with 5 sonic blasters and one blastmaster would cost 185 pts., that would leave enough points to equip the second Rhino with missiles as well. Still, that's even less models, and a dedicated close combat squad is nice to have around, too.

*1 Which inspires me for yet another army list, a completely different one, which looks rather nice to me, but has little to do with the fully mechanized list I'm trying to put together here.


Thanks a lot for all the remarks and suggestions, everyone. :smallsmile:
Now, would this revamped list be viable?

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Chaos Bike, Daemon Weapon|160
Troops|9 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|1 lascannon, 1 flamer; powerfist, meltabombs|215
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
||
Total:|999[/table]

[Lorn]

{table]Troops|9 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|1 lascannon, 1 flamer; powerfist, meltabombs|215[/table]
Lascannon and a flamer/powerfist...? (http://tsoalr.com/?p=242)

Why equip it with both? Granted, I don't know points values for Chaos, but in other Codexes both lascannons and powerfists tend to be a bit pricy... you can't move and shoot with the lascannon and you can't stay still and assault with the powerfist. Just, yeah, seems a bit... not so great.

Then again, I'm a big fan of specialist units :p That's just me though.

[Winterwind]

That'd be once more because this squad is the remainder of a bigger general purpose squad, and also, because I wanted it to be prepared in case it should get assaulted.

Still, I could just replace that whole Champion with his equipment with a normal marine; that would give enough points to put missile-launchers on both Rhinos and equip the Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol. Do you think this would be better?

[onasuma]

I Thanks a lot for all the remarks and suggestions, everyone. :smallsmile:
Now, would this revamped list be viable?

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Chaos Bike, Daemon Weapon|160
Troops|9 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspirant Champion|1 lascannon, 1 flamer; powerfist, meltabombs|215
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
||
Total:|999[/table]

My thorghts are that this wouldnt do to well at this points scale. If you kept the theme for 2000 i think it would be far more effective.

You again only have two troop choice, i think a third might almost be compulsory at this game size (assuming it isnt meat grinder), so id advise splitting the chaos marines into two smaller squads.

On the topic of bikes, i think a 3rd of your army invested into 6 wounds is a bit steep. Yes they are T 4(6) which seems great on paper, but it isnt going to up their survivability against most foes. Shooty armies will find it pretty much as easy to kill them as if they were T5 and combatty armies will have somthing that can get through that and the armour without to much trouble. I think thinning them to 3 or 4 models and putting the points is a rhino and a few more troops might be wise.

[Eldan]

I guess asking here makes as much sense as asking anywhere else...
See, the friend I most often played 40k against moved to the UK. Sucks, since I never get to play anymore. However, we had this idea... playing 40k over the computer. We simplified a few rules, mostly regarding movement, played with 500 pts. armies and it worked out pretty well. So, now I'd like to playtest this idea some more. WOuld someone here be willing to try and play a short round (probably taking a week or so in realtime) here on the message boards in the game section, if I wrote up the rules and did the maps if necessary?
Basically, what we did was divide the board in six-inch squares and do movement on a square basis, a little bit more like a board game.

[Killersquid]

I heard something about Vassal 40k, which is over the computer, but I have not seen nor played it.

[Bryn]

That's pretty much the reason the VASSAL 40k module was invented.

Here (http://www.vassal40k.com/) is what appears to be their website. The mod has apparently changed a lot since I played with it. Apparently you don't need the main VASSAL program to use it anymore.

It includes a diceroller, sprites to represent many of the models and terrain, and it allows you to play top-down games of 40k across the Internet. Not as good as real 40k, and figuring out line of sight is a bit of a problem, but it's free and a great way to test army lists before you start buying models.

[Eldan]

Hey, interesting. Certainly better than what we did with scribbled messenger maps.

[Winterwind]

My thorghts are that this wouldnt do to well at this points scale. If you kept the theme for 2000 i think it would be far more effective.

You again only have two troop choice, i think a third might almost be compulsory at this game size (assuming it isnt meat grinder), so id advise splitting the chaos marines into two smaller squads.I was afraid of that. :smallfrown:
I hoped the army's mobility and combat prowess might be enough to grab two objectives without allowing the enemy to hold any (or to eradicate him wholesome), but I feared I was deluding myself there. Okay, back to the drawing board...


On the topic of bikes, i think a 3rd of your army invested into 6 wounds is a bit steep. Yes they are T 4(6) which seems great on paper, but it isnt going to up their survivability against most foes. Shooty armies will find it pretty much as easy to kill them as if they were T5 and combatty armies will have somthing that can get through that and the armour without to much trouble. I think thinning them to 3 or 4 models and putting the points is a rhino and a few more troops might be wise.Awww, really? I had so high expectations for this squad (7 wounds, by the way, not 6 - it's 6 marines plus a champion)... :smallfrown:
But with fewer models, the icon will be even less worth it. With bigger armies, while the cost of this particular squad will not take up as much of the entire army anymore, it will still retain its very high points-per-model cost. So, doesn't this mean that Nurgle bikers are pretty much generally never worth it?

Why are they so vulnerable, anyway? Their Toughness is high enough to take decreased wounds even from Tau pulse rifles, even plasma doesn't wound them on a 2, there are few close combat units with a Strength high enough to wound them reliably (even an Imperial Guard sarge with powerfist needs a 4+ to wound them!), against light weaponry they still have their awesome 3+ armour save and additionally they have their turbo boosters to provide themselves with a good cover save (which they will be using for the first round or two, as they rush towards the enemy tanks)?

...in theory, I could replace the biker squad and the Biker Lord with a Land Raider and stuff it with the Terminator Lord (Daemon Weapon) with four Terminators by his side (equipped with one heavy flamer and once dual energy claws). Would cost practically the same...
I didn't really have a Land Raider in mind in any of my army lists, but since it seems to be the only way short of deep-striking to bring the Terminator Lord into action quickly and moderately savely...

[onasuma]

Well, ill make it clear first: Nurgle bikers are awesome. Heck, Im building one as I type this. However, they are very costly, and in such a small game, a unit that can only be in one place at a time is less effective that two slightly weaker ones.

They also arent very vunerable, but with a 1/7 change of each wound that gets through possibly lowering everyones toughness to 4 (5) it can be a bit risky. Its the low wound count that scares me on such an expensive unit (then again... 300 point carnefix only has 5 wounds).

Im sure you can make it work, and whatever it hits is gonna die. If you had your heart set on it, go ahead and make them. They really will do nicely sometimes, but other times they wont make it to combat in time.

[Erloas]

Well one thing I would say is to make sure you have a "rhino blown up on the first turn" contingency plan. I'm suprized to see they are only 35 points considering that the Eldar transport starts at 90 (though a fair amount harder to kill and more manuverable).
Not sure what exactly would need to be done, but any shooty army (the ones you are going to have to close with) aren't going to have much trouble stopping an armor 11 vehicle on the first turn. If they are a close combat army then they aren't really going to care much if you close the range.
No idea what would be done to help that, but its just something that stands out to me. Even if its not destroyed the chances of it being immobilized or stunned in the first round seems fairly high to me, in which case you would be relying soly on your bikes to keep the enemy busy while the other two units make it anywhere.
With half of your army all put together (501 points between the lord on bike and the other bikes) and only 2 other units it seems like it would be pretty easy for an enemy to concentrate on and wipe out a unit fairly quickly and not generally have to deal with more then 1 unit at a time. Of course that is probably the case all the time with all types of Marines.

So far I've only had a few games, but one was against CSMs at 1500 points, and I had 10 units to his 4 (6 if you count the rhinos as their own) and it was too easy to concentrate several units a turn on a single unit of his and wipe it out before it could do much of anything. Eldar as also a fairly elite army, if it had been a horde army such as orcs or 'nids it would have been even more units.

At the rate you are going you also would probably only have 4, maybe 5, units at 1500 and be in much the same situation. Of course how good your opponent is at taking advantage of those sorts of things will make a big difference. Of course having primarily played Dark Elves in fantasy for years I'm a very big proponent of MSU (many small units) style of lists and I have a hard time justifying fielding any units bigger then about 200 points. Of course that sort of thing doesn't work with all armies.

Not sure if I've helped at all, but just my general thoughts about the list despite a limited knowledge of them.

[Winterwind]

Well, ill make it clear first: Nurgle bikers are awesome. Heck, Im building one as I type this. However, they are very costly, and in such a small game, a unit that can only be in one place at a time is less effective that two slightly weaker ones.

They also arent very vunerable, but with a 1/7 change of each wound that gets through possibly lowering everyones toughness to 4 (5) it can be a bit risky. Its the low wound count that scares me on such an expensive unit (then again... 300 point carnefix only has 5 wounds).

Im sure you can make it work, and whatever it hits is gonna die. If you had your heart set on it, go ahead and make them. They really will do nicely sometimes, but other times they wont make it to combat in time.I see.
My thought was that one really expensive unit in a low-points game, fast enough to strike whereever it chooses to, might prove too strong for the opponents to deal with easily, focussing so much power into a single location. But if that doesn't work this way, as you say, I'll have to try something else (and keep the Nurgle bikers in mind for bigger games).


Well one thing I would say is to make sure you have a "rhino blown up on the first turn" contingency plan. I'm suprized to see they are only 35 points considering that the Eldar transport starts at 90 (though a fair amount harder to kill and more manuverable).
Not sure what exactly would need to be done, but any shooty army (the ones you are going to have to close with) aren't going to have much trouble stopping an armor 11 vehicle on the first turn. If they are a close combat army then they aren't really going to care much if you close the range.
No idea what would be done to help that, but its just something that stands out to me. Even if its not destroyed the chances of it being immobilized or stunned in the first round seems fairly high to me, in which case you would be relying soly on your bikes to keep the enemy busy while the other two units make it anywhere.
With half of your army all put together (501 points between the lord on bike and the other bikes) and only 2 other units it seems like it would be pretty easy for an enemy to concentrate on and wipe out a unit fairly quickly and not generally have to deal with more then 1 unit at a time. Of course that is probably the case all the time with all types of Marines. I keep calculating the average points-per-model costs in my army after each list... and I invariably end up with something like 27 points per model, or more (and that's without such expensive models as the Chaos Lord, Obliterators or vehicles!). But I really don't know how to help that (I mean, I could, of course, just take a bunch of unequipped plain Chaos Space Marines, but where's the fun in that? :smalltongue:).
Nor am I quite sure how to fix the problem with destroyed Rhinos. One way or another those units have to get to the other side, if not via transport, then running. The only thing I could do would be to include more long range support to hurt the enemy while my other units are still on their way, or include more units capable of moving and shooting effectively (which basically means Noise Marines).

A completely different list for 1000 points, that drops the entire concept of a fully mechanized army, with more units on the field, could be the following one (additional appeal: All Chaos Gods represented):

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Daemon Weapon|145
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|7 Plague Marines|none|161
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
||
Total:|999[/table]The obvious drawback - the Lord would have to run into battle. The nice thing - he could join the Plague Marine squad, which might draw some enemy fire onto a squad whose entire purpose is nothing but surviving enemy fire. And as they don't carry any valuable heavy weaponry, they could just run instead of shoot.


So far I've only had a few games, but one was against CSMs at 1500 points, and I had 10 units to his 4 (6 if you count the rhinos as their own) and it was too easy to concentrate several units a turn on a single unit of his and wipe it out before it could do much of anything. Eldar as also a fairly elite army, if it had been a horde army such as orcs or 'nids it would have been even more units.

At the rate you are going you also would probably only have 4, maybe 5, units at 1500 and be in much the same situation. Of course how good your opponent is at taking advantage of those sorts of things will make a big difference. Of course having primarily played Dark Elves in fantasy for years I'm a very big proponent of MSU (many small units) style of lists and I have a hard time justifying fielding any units bigger then about 200 points. Of course that sort of thing doesn't work with all armies.Well, for 1500 points, the fully-mechanized army list would look somewhat like this:

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Chaos Bike, Daemon Weapon|160
Fast Attack|6 Chaos Bikes, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltas; powerfist|341
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 plasma gun, 1 lascannon|185
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno missile launcher|50
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno missile launcher|50
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno missile launcher|50
||
Total:|1494[/table]And with the remaining points probably meltabombs or something on the Lord or Bike Champion.

The 2000 points version could then, theoretically, add the following:
{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Daemon Weapon|145
Elite|4 Chaos Terminators|1 heavy flamer, 1 powerclaw-pair|135
Support|Land Raider|none|220
||
Total:|500[/table]though that army would suffer from extremely few Troop choices.
So, yeah, 5 units (two of them very fast though)... I guess I'd better just stick to my original list, that has far more long range firepower and 7 units (including 4 Troop choices), that will be probably superior in most situations.
Though a fully mechanized army still has its appeal... maybe I'm just too dumb or too inexperienced to put a decent one together.


Not sure if I've helped at all, but just my general thoughts about the list despite a limited knowledge of them.General thoughts help with understanding the game as a whole the most, usually, so they're very welcome. :smallwink:

[grinner666]

Erloas, that's always been a problem for Space Marines and is actually worse for CSMs because the Marks of Chaos all cost and are what differentiate them in game play from loyal Marines. That's the biggest problem with playing an elite force ... it tends to be small.

And yeah, Rhinos suck. Wave Serpents, however, are more like main battle tanks with some transport capability than the rolling deathtraps most armies have as personnel carriers, so you can't really compare them. :smallwink:

Winterwind, for a thousand-points game you might consider dropping the lascannon in favor of a missile launcher ... unless you know your opponent is going to be putting Land Raiders or Leman Russ tanks on the board. That'd give you ten extra points to invest in a meltagun in case you DO happen across some AV14 vehicle ... or a skimmer you could only hit on a 6 in the assault. In fact, I'd invest more heavily in assault weapons in general, and less in meltabombs.

And yeah, even though the Bikers are tough (you need to roll a 6 to wound 'em with a Bolter, let's all remember ... and a Guardsman's flashlight can't hurt them at all), you might want to consider some other option for such a low-points game. You could add a nice squad of Havocs and an Obliterator or two for the same cost ... or several small Tactical squads to take objectives with.

In a bigger game, though, I'd say go to town with 'em. They're fantastic.

:smallbiggrin:

[onasuma]

And yeah, even though the Bikers are tough (you need to roll a 6 to wound 'em with a Bolter, let's all remember ... and a Guardsman's flashlight can't hurt them at all), you might want to consider some other option for such a low-points game. You could add a nice squad of Havocs and an Obliterator or two for the same cost ... or several small Tactical squads to take objectives with.

No, lasguns still wound them on a 6. S1 or S2 weapons cant touch nurgle bikers (if you can find one) anything above S3 can.

[Winterwind]

Winterwind, for a thousand-points game you might consider dropping the lascannon in favor of a missile launcher ... unless you know your opponent is going to be putting Land Raiders or Leman Russ tanks on the board. That'd give you ten extra points to invest in a meltagun in case you DO happen across some AV14 vehicle ... or a skimmer you could only hit on a 6 in the assault. In fact, I'd invest more heavily in assault weapons in general, and less in meltabombs.

And yeah, even though the Bikers are tough (you need to roll a 6 to wound 'em with a Bolter, let's all remember ... and a Guardsman's flashlight can't hurt them at all), you might want to consider some other option for such a low-points game. You could add a nice squad of Havocs and an Obliterator or two for the same cost ... or several small Tactical squads to take objectives with.Hmmm... like this?

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 melta|125
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 plasma gun|130
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||
Total:|998[/table]I know I left the lascannon, but considering the equipment of that Havoc team...


In a bigger game, though, I'd say go to town with 'em. They're fantastic.Well, if I ever play a game with more than 2000 points (or actually manage to, for once, design an army list with less points that incorporates those Bikers and doesn't suck beyond redemption, I surely will :smallsmile:.

[Tren]

Everyone's already covered the nurgle bikers pretty well but I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents. They're a powerful unit that's incredibly resilient to small arms fire and very fast, but they're expensive. Especially at such low points they take up a large chunk of your army and makes your list into kind of a one trick pony. And even with their T6 with FNP all it takes is one large blast from a vindicator or leman russ and barring a cover save your super-expensive bikers are dead on a 2+ without even the benefit of FNP. That said, in a bigger list where they're not the first and most obvious target, they can live long enough to wreak some major havoc :smallcool:

And for the record, flashlights can wound a nurgle biker, they just need a 6. And then the chances of them getting through a 3+ armor and 4+ FNP is pretty unlikely!

[Winterwind]

Alas, Feel No Pain is reserved for Plague Marines; the Nurgle icon alone doesn't grant that. And there is no option to equip Plague Marines with Chaos Bikes. :smallfrown:

But yeah, I'll definitely get that unit; when and in what list it will see battle remains to be seen. :smallsmile:
I think the list I posted in the last post is somewhat solid, at least (it's been a long way :smallbiggrin:); it shouldn't be too difficult to expand from there.

[Erloas]

Well in terms of the Rhinos, I know there isn't a whole lot you can do to make them more survivable, just saying you need some plan for when they do die. If you had some other higher priority vehicles that would draw attention away from them that might help. As it is you only have 3 targets for all anti-tank shots to go against (if you consider the T6 bikes to need anti-tank weaponry) so I wouldn't bet on the Rhinos lasting too long.

As it is with the bikers being T6 with a 3+AS they would be about as vulnerable to small arms fire as the Avatar, and a few pages back should be all of the numbers for taking him down with small arms fire.

One thing about the bikers though, is that no matter how mean they are they can't kill more then 1 unit a turn. Considering the relative cost of the unit that would be 2-3 units before they've made their points back. They aren't likely to get into combat first turn, and games generally end on the 5th turn, so it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort by your opponent to keep them busy for long enough that you can't make back your points.


In the aformentioned game against nurgle CSMs my opponent was basically trying a point denial list, figuring no one could reasonably be able to wipe out his huge unit of 20-25ish nurgle space marines, with their T5, 3+AS and FNP. However, considering he didn't leave me much else to attack I had it down to 2 models by the end of the 4rd turn, to be finished off in his turn (in CC). Sure I needed 5s and 6s to wound most of the time, but I had so many shots going at the unit there were some dieing all the time.

With your bikers its much the same. Most of my units would only need to kill 1-3 bikes before they made back their points, with something like the War Walker with 8 S6 shots (2xscatter lasers) I'm easily making back my points in one round. Even if you get into combat it takes a lot of killing before you come out ahead. Against something like Orks you are going to have to kill 5-8 orks (not sure on their points) per biker to come out ahead. Against something like Banshees that attack first I've only got to roll 1 six (what it takes me to wound with my power weapons at S3) to make up the cost of 3.5 banshees.

I have no real breakdown on their point cost, but what would it run for a basic unit? How likely are they to win combat unsupported? Are the weapon upgrades something they have to have to be effective, or are they going to pretty much kill most things in CC reguardless of taking those shots first? I'm wondering if they can fill the same role on the battlefield at a minimum point cost, even if they loose a little bit of versatility in the process. Since you can only assault what you shoot at, can you kill what those meltas are going to be aiming for or are those mostly going to be going towards things you aren't going to want to assault anyway?

I see the uses for the unit, I'm just not sure if it should be the "core" of the army. In fact I don't believe in lists have a core, I believe in an idea (CC, shooty, fast, balanced) and then build redundancy around that idea so whatever your army needs to do you have at least a few ways of getting it done.

[grinner666]

Hmmm... like this?

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 melta|125
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 plasma gun|130
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||
Total:|998[/table]I know I left the lascannon, but considering the equipment of that Havoc team...

Well, if I ever play a game with more than 2000 points (or actually manage to, for once, design an army list with less points that incorporates those Bikers and doesn't suck beyond redemption, I surely will :smallsmile:.

That's not bad at all. You've got a full five squads, four of them Troops choices, plus a Lord you can Deep Strike in to support the Berserkers if you don't want him to play foot-slogger, and plenty of antitank (and anti-Space Marine :smalltongue:) capability between the Havocs and the Tactical squad. Your Plague Marines can move and fire effectively so you could use them to screen your Rhino though you certainly don't need to. I think you've probably done about the best you possibly could with such a low points total.

Hell, my 2000-point SM army only has three Troops squads ... thank goodness Space Marines can split their squads up into combat teams!

:smallsmile:

[Eldan]

So, I downloaded vassal40k, played around with it for a while and I think I'm getting the hang of it.
Anyone up for a game sometime?

[Lorn]

So, I downloaded vassal40k, played around with it for a while and I think I'm getting the hang of it.
Anyone up for a game sometime?
Sure. What timezone are you in?

Though, I've still not totally mastered it.


E: How may points?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'm up for one. Never tried it before, but downloadan now.

[Paul H]

Hi

Still like my Noise Marine option.
1)It's themed (sonic wpns).
2) Has five basic troop squads for greater flexibilty. (And points for Deamon Prince Cmdr).
3) Armed with sonic blasters that can out-rapid shot other marines.
4) Their Blastmasters have an alternate setting that can still shoot (range 36") when they move.
5) Are Fearless with Init 5.

If someone used bikes against me I'd start opening fire at 48" with Blastmasters. Then at 24" my Sonic Blasters would add their fire. (12 shots/squad).

It's the Landraiders & artillery, etc that worry me. Blastmaster is only Str 8, though 48" range normally means "if I can see it I can shoot it..".

All this for 1000pts.

Cheers
Paul H

[Eldan]

I'm at GMT+1, but I still have holidays until monday, which means this weekend I can be up at any time.
Starting small would probably be good, to get a feel for the game.

[Ash08]

Quick question to any SM players, in 5e are all SM missle launchers hv. 2s or only cyclones?

[tribble]

Hi

Still like my Noise Marine option.
1)It's themed (sonic wpns).
2) Has five basic troop squads for greater flexibilty. (And points for Deamon Prince Cmdr).
3) Armed with sonic blasters that can out-rapid shot other marines.
4) Their Blastmasters have an alternate setting that can still shoot (range 36") when they move.
5) Are Fearless with Init 5.

If someone used bikes against me I'd start opening fire at 48" with Blastmasters. Then at 24" my Sonic Blasters would add their fire. (12 shots/squad).

It's the Landraiders & artillery, etc that worry me. Blastmaster is only Str 8, though 48" range normally means "if I can see it I can shoot it..".

All this for 1000pts.

Cheers
Paul H

I was going to offer criticism, only i'm too much of a noise marine fan to come up with anything other than... that's gotta be around 100$ in dice needed to make that many shots.

[grinner666]

Quick question to any SM players, in 5e are all SM missle launchers hv. 2s or only cyclones?

Cyclone and Typhoon Missile Launchers only.

[Killersquid]

Scribe, WTF man is up with your avatar?

Also, I had my first game against a SM army, and got destroyed. Granted he had models holed up, and for me to get anywhere effectively decent I needed to rush him with my Boyz, it was going in difficult.

[Ash08]

Here is the first half of my most bizare battle I have ever fought. Me and my Ork friend and Tau friend since we enjoyed last times three way battle so much have decided to to it again... but this time instead of customizing the rules we are using the actual broken alliance rules. When we rolled for deployment the Ork player rolled highest, then the Tau and I of course rolled last. No given the table we used(its over GM recommended size... but some how things are always bizare whenever we use it) and the terrian set up there was no room for me to deploy so all of my 1,500 point army except for my Librarian were in reserves... the first turn had the ork warboss ikilling the Budget Tau battlesuit commander by the center of the board, the orks moved closer to my undefended base camp and the tau manovered and shoot at my librarian but thanks to his termie armor he survived the onslought without a any wounds. Next turn I got to go first with my termie and scout squads(yes I no, reserves can't arrive at the end of the first turn, but they felt sorry for me and let them come on a six up:smallbiggrin:). I deployed them around my camp with the librarian and proceeded to shoot away at the orks. My terminator's assualt cannon in a stroke of luck( 1 6 and a 3) managed to blow up a ork deffdread. Next the tau moved, shot abit at my terminator(none died) and moved a bit more. Then went the orks, he moved closer and shot two out of five scouts. At the end I got a Rhino with a tactical squad and anti-hord devastator squad(4 heavy bolters). The Tau player got a devilfish with a fire warrior team. Then it was the ork players turn. He proceded to blow up my rhino kill 3 tactical marines, 3 scouts, 3 terminators and assualted my tactical squad(i won by 1 wound so we're still locked in cc). Then his warboss assualted a fire warrior team and sweeping advanced him, the warboss then used his consaladation move to move out of LOS from the Tau. Next the Tau player seeing the threat that the orks posed to his victory spent his entire turn and shooting faze shooting at orks... he killed 3(how much worse can you get?:smallconfused:). It is now my turn... which will have to wait until tomorrow... I have one more tactical squad in a drop pod with my captain and another devastator squad, this one with 2 plasma cannons and 2 lascannons. Things are looking grim and at the best I may be able to srcap a tie out of this...:smalleek:

[Myatar_Panwar]

I haven't played 40k in years (not even sure why I still sport the sig), but a friend of mine recently bought the starter set, and it has encouraged myself and a few other friends to get back into the game. I just have a few questions:

1. Anyone know of an online store which sells individual parts or pieces?

2. How does the community in general regard units being played differently from appearance? When I first assembled my 12 piece set of fire warriors, I wasn't worrying about future tactics or whatnot, I was just having fun putting them together. Oh the naivety. I have some with pulse grenades, a few with carbines, neither of which reflects any army build or whatnot. Just curious on how regular 40K players would react if someone were to tell them that said unit is actually wielding "X" weapon, when in actuality it was glued together with "Y" weapon.

3. Army point size and composition in common skirmishes: I know that both sides must be matched in points and have 1 HQ and 2 troops minimum, but any other requirements? Should both sides be matched in the number of points per category, groups per category, etc?

[onasuma]

I haven't played 40k in years (not even sure why I still sport the sig), but a friend of mine recently bought the starter set, and it has encouraged myself and a few other friends to get back into the game. I just have a few questions:

1. Anyone know of an online store which sells individual parts or pieces?

2. How does the community in general regard units being played differently from appearance? When I first assembled my 12 piece set of fire warriors, I wasn't worrying about future tactics or whatnot, I was just having fun putting them together. Oh the naivety. I have some with pulse grenades, a few with carbines, neither of which reflects any army build or whatnot. Just curious on how regular 40K players would react if someone were to tell them that said unit is actually wielding "X" weapon, when in actuality it was glued together with "Y" weapon.

3. Army point size and composition in common skirmishes: I know that both sides must be matched in points and have 1 HQ and 2 troops minimum, but any other requirements? Should both sides be matched in the number of points per category, groups per category, etc?

1) warstore is pretty good. it doesnt have everything, but its got most bits you might need. (http://www.thewarstore.net/)

2) As long as its not a tornament, and people are told before hand, they dont normally mind.

3) about 1500 points is the average game that'll take an afternoon. Both sides may have up to that many points, or under (or 1 or 2 over if its a friendly) but dont have to match on selections in the force organisation chart. They just both need 2 troops and 1 hq and may additionally have 1 more hq, 4 more troops, 3 eliets, 3 heavy support and 3 fast attack.

[Lorn]

I'm at GMT+1, but I still have holidays until monday, which means this weekend I can be up at any time.
Starting small would probably be good, to get a feel for the game.
Hm. I'm on GMT.

However, I won't have any free time probably until next weekend... feel like a 500 points or so game then?

[Eldan]

Sure. What's your army? I haven't played against about half of the existing ones, so this could get interesting.

[Zorg]

1. Anyone know of an online store which sells individual parts or pieces?

2. How does the community in general regard units being played differently from appearance? When I first assembled my 12 piece set of fire warriors, I wasn't worrying about future tactics or whatnot, I was just having fun putting them together. Oh the naivety. I have some with pulse grenades, a few with carbines, neither of which reflects any army build or whatnot. Just curious on how regular 40K players would react if someone were to tell them that said unit is actually wielding "X" weapon, when in actuality it was glued together with "Y" weapon.

1. Blackdagger-Games (http://stores.ebay.com/Blackdagger-Games) are really good - they have very cheap postage (flat $4 worldwide) and are pretty quick too.

2. I personally would have no problem with it, but as said 99% of tournaments are pretty strict WYSIWYG.

[Lorn]

Sure. What's your army? I haven't played against about half of the existing ones, so this could get interesting.
I can play Guard or Daemonhunters. Or, if you don't mind me using the old Codex, Space Marines.

What do you play? Also, what edition do you play?

[Winterwind]

One thing about the bikers though, is that no matter how mean they are they can't kill more then 1 unit a turn. Considering the relative cost of the unit that would be 2-3 units before they've made their points back. They aren't likely to get into combat first turn, and games generally end on the 5th turn, so it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort by your opponent to keep them busy for long enough that you can't make back your points.Of course, the usefulness of a unit cannot be measured only by how many points it kills, but also by how many points losses it prevents for the own side, how many points it helps other units to kill and how much it shifts the entire tactical situation into one's favour generally. But yeah, I see how this could become a problem...


In the aformentioned game against nurgle CSMs my opponent was basically trying a point denial list, figuring no one could reasonably be able to wipe out his huge unit of 20-25ish nurgle space marines, with their T5, 3+AS and FNP. However, considering he didn't leave me much else to attack I had it down to 2 models by the end of the 4rd turn, to be finished off in his turn (in CC). Sure I needed 5s and 6s to wound most of the time, but I had so many shots going at the unit there were some dieing all the time. Yeah, I imagine that would happen. As I see it, Nurgle units are better used to draw fire away from more valuable units, not so much as stand-alone units.


I have no real breakdown on their point cost, but what would it run for a basic unit? How likely are they to win combat unsupported? Are the weapon upgrades something they have to have to be effective, or are they going to pretty much kill most things in CC reguardless of taking those shots first? I'm wondering if they can fill the same role on the battlefield at a minimum point cost, even if they loose a little bit of versatility in the process. Since you can only assault what you shoot at, can you kill what those meltas are going to be aiming for or are those mostly going to be going towards things you aren't going to want to assault anyway? Well, the first and foremost function for that squad would be to rush behind the enemy lines and start destroying all vehicles and heavy support. After doing that, they would could go after just about anything.
With regards to their cost, well, a squad of 7 bikers with no champion, no icon and no other equipment would cost 231. A squad of 10 bikers with one melta, and no further equipment would cost practically the same as that Nurgle biker squad with champion and 2 meltas (340 for the 10 bikers with melta, 341 for the Nurgle bikers, where I would say that the Nurgle bikers would be a far better deal most of the time).


I see the uses for the unit, I'm just not sure if it should be the "core" of the army. In fact I don't believe in lists have a core, I believe in an idea (CC, shooty, fast, balanced) and then build redundancy around that idea so whatever your army needs to do you have at least a few ways of getting it done.Mhhh, makes sense. I'm generally trying to get a balanced list, though the focus of that mechanized list was rather on 'fast'.

Either way, I'll keep that fully-mechanized list including bikers in mind, and I think I'll get the Nurgle biker squad, too, but for now I have a different list to use in mind. :smallsmile:


That's not bad at all. You've got a full five squads, four of them Troops choices, plus a Lord you can Deep Strike in to support the Berserkers if you don't want him to play foot-slogger, and plenty of antitank (and anti-Space Marine :smalltongue:) capability between the Havocs and the Tactical squad. Your Plague Marines can move and fire effectively so you could use them to screen your Rhino though you certainly don't need to. I think you've probably done about the best you possibly could with such a low points total.Great. Finally. :smallsmile:
I think the continuation of that army will look somewhat like this (finally, a list for 1000, 1500 and 2000 points with which I am satisfied at each level :smallsmile:):

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 melta|125
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 plasma gun|130
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||
Total:|998
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile launcher|50
||
Total:|1493
Heavy Support|3 Obliterators|none|225
Elites|6 Possessed Marines|Icon of Slaanesh|176
Elites|3 Chaos Terminators|1 heavy flamer, 1 powerclaw-pair|105
||
Total:|1999[/table]


Hell, my 2000-point SM army only has three Troops squads ... thank goodness Space Marines can split their squads up into combat teams!Is that a loyalist-only option? Because I don't see anything like that in my CSM codex... or am I just blind?


Still like my Noise Marine option. I like Noise Marines too. If I wasn't going for a balanced army including all four Chaos Gods in the long run, I would probably be going for an Emperor's Children army. :smallsmile:


It's the Landraiders & artillery, etc that worry me. Blastmaster is only Str 8, though 48" range normally means "if I can see it I can shoot it..".Well, if you want to keep your entire army's firing weaponry purely sonic, I see only three ways for you to destroy Land Raiders (of course, you could hope to disarm and immobilize it with the blastmasters, that would likely take ages though) - either, put meltabombs on all your champions and hope one of the squads gets to assault the Land Raider, or get yourself either a Demon Prince or a Greater Daemon and hope that gets to assault. In a 5-man-squad Chosen Marines can all take meltabombs, get sooner to the enemy tanks via infiltration and you could rid all of them except one of their normal weaponry by switching to double powerclaws, but one non-sonic weapon would remain... and all other ways of dealing with tanks I can think of involve even more non-sonic weaponry. :/

[grinner666]

I haven't played 40k in years (not even sure why I still sport the sig), but a friend of mine recently bought the starter set, and it has encouraged myself and a few other friends to get back into the game. I just have a few questions:

1. Anyone know of an online store which sells individual parts or pieces?

You could start with Games Workshop. :smalltongue:

There's also these folks if you're in the US or Canada: http://store.miniwargaming.com/


2. How does the community in general regard units being played differently from appearance? When I first assembled my 12 piece set of fire warriors, I wasn't worrying about future tactics or whatnot, I was just having fun putting them together. Oh the naivety. I have some with pulse grenades, a few with carbines, neither of which reflects any army build or whatnot. Just curious on how regular 40K players would react if someone were to tell them that said unit is actually wielding "X" weapon, when in actuality it was glued together with "Y" weapon.

I come from an area where WYSIWYG was pretty much "the law of the land". If you didn't have a model with the right weapon, you didn't have that weapon. I've come pretty much to believe that's the way you should play; that way nobody can pull any "Surprise! My sergeant's got a power fist! Your commander's dead!" crap.


3. Army point size and composition in common skirmishes: I know that both sides must be matched in points and have 1 HQ and 2 troops minimum, but any other requirements? Should both sides be matched in the number of points per category, groups per category, etc?

No. Only control on number of units, etc. is the maximum number for each unit type (two command, six troops, three of everything else), and whatever controls there are in a specific army codex (e.g maximum one Hardened Veterans squad in an IG army) in a standard game. If you're using an older edition (you didn't say), some missions start you out with with units other than HQ and troops on the board, though.

Speaking of which, does anybody here still use missions from 3E? Some of them are a heck of a lot more interesting than the generic crap GW has come up with in 5E.

:smallsmile:


Is that a loyalist-only option? Because I don't see anything like that in my CSM codex... or am I just blind?

Yeah, it's for loyal Chapters only. You traitor scum. Luckily, the traitor scum can still take special weapons with a five-man squad. Not an option for those of us still loyal to the Emperor.

:smalltongue:

[Lorn]

You could start with Games Workshop. :smalltongue:
Sadly, they've taken the individual bits part off their website. You can order a few specific bits or sprues, but that's it - which is really, really unhelpful if, hypothetically speaking, you want one psycannon and not five for a Grey Knight Grandmaster or something... or, well, anything like that.

[Eldan]

I play Eldar. Also, I don't think there are any daemonhunter sprites in the programm yet. Also; I have played 4th for quite some time, but currently only have the 5th rulebook around.

[Lorn]

I play Eldar. Also, I don't think there are any daemonhunter sprites in the programm yet. Also; I have played 4th for quite some time, but currently only have the 5th rulebook around.
There's Daemonhunters in there, I've just been playing around with a couple of lists...

And ok, would you prefer to play 4E or 5E? I haven't played 5E much at all, but have found it very similar to 4E - then again, haven't played much at all for quite some time.

[Eldan]

Actually, I've only had two games of 5E total... so, if you woudn't mind, I like to play that one some more. I really like some of the changes. (And hate others. But who cares.)

Now, my last 500 pts. list must be years ago. I'll see what I can come up with. I'll probably go with the old idea I once had, called "those annoying Eldar".

[Myatar_Panwar]

Thanks for the responses guy's. Those bitz site's may solve my problem with units with odd items without me spending a fortune on new box sets. And I think I understand the answers to my third question, but would like clarification. I'll just use examples:

1. I use 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 3 Elite, and 1 heavy support. My opponent is using 2 HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Elite, and 1 heavy support. The points total match. Legal y/n?

2. I use 1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 1 Elite. My opponent uses 1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 2 Fast Attack. The points total match. Legal y/n?

Also, if I am to understand correctly, it is illegal to go above 3 fast attack, 6 infantry, etc? Unless player agreed beforehand, I assume.


One last thing, a couple Tau specific question's. Forgive any stupid or obvious questions. I haven't played for quite a while, and my group and I were young enough to not really care about specifics, and would usually just go in and kill eachother with a lack of understanding the rules :smalltongue::

1.Gun Drones. Do they have to have a controller? The book mentions Drone Controller as wargear obtained at an extra ten points, granting the user control over two drones. If the controller dies then the drones die. But then under their entry in Fast Attack, it lists them as being grouped in packs of 4-8, and no where it mentions a controller. I can only guess that the advantage of having a unit control them would be extra numbers for moral checks etc. But am unsure about where they fit in with individual battle suits. Can someone please elaborate?

2. I have 4 XV8 Crisis Battlesuits. One of which is not yet put together. I just realized today that I don't really have an HQ anymore (used to use a normal suit as per the rules, but the new codex which I bought today depicts slightly different headgear on the commanders :smallannoyed:). One of the bitz sites sells this altered headgear luckily. But it also looks like the new commander units come with some new weaponry and other "experimental equipment". Is any of this really necessary to run the new Tau Battle Suit commanders, or will I be ok with just normal stuff?

3. Any general advice for fighting orks? :smallbiggrin:

[Illiterate Scribe]

1. I use 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 3 Elite, and 1 heavy support. My opponent is using 2 HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Elite, and 1 heavy support. The points total match. Legal y/n?

Y.


2. I use 1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 1 Elite. My opponent uses 1 HQ, 2 Troops, and 2 Fast Attack. The points total match. Legal y/n?

Y.


Also, if I am to understand correctly, it is illegal to go above 3 fast attack, 6 infantry, etc? Unless player agreed beforehand, I assume.

Y.

This might help:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/843/picture1ll1.png

1.Gun Drones. Do they have to have a controller? The book mentions Drone Controller as wargear obtained at an extra ten points, granting the user control over two drones. If the controller dies then the drones die. But then under their entry in Fast Attack, it lists them as being grouped in packs of 4-8, and no where it mentions a controller. I can only guess that the advantage of having a unit control them would be extra numbers for moral checks etc. But am unsure about where they fit in with individual battle suits. Can someone please elaborate?

I'm fairly sure that gun drone squads don't need controllers - they're assumed to be controlled from afar, or running by A.I.


2. I have 4 XV8 Crisis Battlesuits. One of which is not yet put together. I just realized today that I don't really have an HQ anymore (used to use a normal suit as per the rules, but the new codex which I bought today depicts slightly different headgear on the commanders :smallannoyed:). One of the bitz sites sells this altered headgear luckily. But it also looks like the new commander units come with some new weaponry and other "experimental equipment". Is any of this really necessary to run the new Tau Battle Suit commanders, or will I be ok with just normal stuff?

To be honest, you won't need to get a new commander just for the slightly different head - just paint 'command markings' onto it, or glue some bitz onto its head to represent communication devices. Some of the new equipment's fairly nice, but it eats away from what you should be doing, i.e. battlesuits.


3. Any general advice for fighting orks? :smallbiggrin:

They are much, much, better at shooting than you'd think. Lootas in particular are something that is very nasty - they have S7, AP4 Heavy D3 guns, more than enough to down your vehicles as well as infantry.

If they have huge footslogging groups of boyz, stop them from getting to you as quickly as possible - down their transports, split your army so they can only attack one half at a time, etc. Take advantage of the fact that you can't consolidate into combat any more.

Watch out for Boss Snikrot and a whole squad of tooled up kommandos appearing behind your gunline.

Good luck!

Btw, killersquid - roll san check.

[Lorn]

Actually, I've only had two games of 5E total... so, if you woudn't mind, I like to play that one some more. I really like some of the changes. (And hate others. But who cares.)

Now, my last 500 pts. list must be years ago. I'll see what I can come up with. I'll probably go with the old idea I once had, called "those annoying Eldar".
No problems, though I might have to check my rulebook that definitely isn't a PDF on my desktop a bit.

And I'll beegin designing mine shortly...

[Eldan]

Yes, I understand that your rulebook totally isn't a PDF on your desktop, since I totally bought a copy in our shop that sells extremly large quantities of such books.
I think I've done my army list. They are probably not very effective against those terminator/SMQ-types your army will probably largely consist of, but at least they will be fun to play.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'd be up for 5e, personally. Just trying to work out how vassal works.

[Eldan]

It's not even that complicated, once you get the hang of it... I think I got most functions. Ask if you have a problem, I might be able to help.

[Lorn]

I think I've done my army list. They are probably not very effective against those terminator/SMQ-types your army will probably largely consist of, but at least they will be fun to play.
I, also, have now built an army.

And don't worry - MEQs or Terminators would be FAR too pricy for a 500 points game. Single squad of GK, no upgrades, would set me back 150 points.

In fact, I've focussed on a pretty much standard Guard army.

[onasuma]

I'd be up for 5e, personally. Just trying to work out how vassal works.

5th ed doesnt really work on vassal due to all the LOS rules.

[Eldan]

I have pretty much minimal amounts of troops in my 500 pts. But they should be worth it.

And as for line of sight: I guess that will get a little complicated. Probably involve some guessing.

[Lorn]

I have pretty much minimal amounts of troops in my 500 pts. But they should be worth it.

And as for line of sight: I guess that will get a little complicated. Probably involve some guessing.
How about we just agree what each terrain piece does beforehand, and just generally say "if it blocks line of sight, it blocks line of sight right across the piece?"

Probably a bit easier than trying to work out how big everything is, and aside from that we could probably get the 5E rules working just as well as on the tabletop.


Hm. Would you be up for maybe next Saturday at some point in the afternoon..?

[Eldan]

Works for me. I think it's even possible to label the terrain pieces.

[Winterwind]

Yeah, it's for loyal Chapters only. You traitor scum. Luckily, the traitor scum can still take special weapons with a five-man squad. Not an option for those of us still loyal to the False Emperor.

:smalltongue:Fixed for you by courtesy of the traitor scum. :smallamused:



One question - is it usually better to concentrate equipment (as in, put icons on the teams' champions, etc., so that the team has to suffer more wounds before the really valuable equipment is in danger) or to split it (so one doesn't lose as much at once, if it gets through after all)?

[Dr. Bath]

5th ed doesnt really work on vassal due to all the LOS rules.

What's changed about LOS?

I've always just agreed on which terrain pieces block what beforehand, when playing Vassal.

I still haven't managed to play with the new version yet (5 was it?) so other than new sprites, I don't know what the differences are.

Of course Vassal is only for battle report picture purposes *cough*

[Lorn]

What's changed about LOS?

I've always just agreed on which terrain pieces block what beforehand, when playing Vassal.

I still haven't managed to play with the new version yet (5 was it?) so other than new sprites, I don't know what the differences are.

Of course Vassal is only for battle report picture purposes *cough*
It's true line of sight now. This means if a model can see another, it can shoot it.

So, for example using a tree on Vassal would be.. interesting - you can't say how wide the treetrunks are or anything, so you can't draw true line of sight.

[Erloas]

Of course, the usefulness of a unit cannot be measured only by how many points it kills, but also by how many points losses it prevents for the own side, how many points it helps other units to kill and how much it shifts the entire tactical situation into one's favour generally. But yeah, I see how this could become a problem...

I understand that completely, and that is the primary use for very fast units. However I try to keep the battlefield shaping units fairly cheap because in most cases it involves moving quickly either into dangerous situations or moving off to draw some enemy units away from the main force. With only two other units around to take advantage of the opportunities that the bikes open up its going to be fairly hard to make sure you have a unit in the right place to do it and if your opponent has you outnumbered 2 to 1 then they can send up to 4 units at any single target at a time and still have 1 unit left to harass or hold up your remaining two units.



Well, the first and foremost function for that squad would be to rush behind the enemy lines and start destroying all vehicles and heavy support. After doing that, they would could go after just about anything.
With regards to their cost, well, a squad of 7 bikers with no champion, no icon and no other equipment would cost 231. A squad of 10 bikers with one melta, and no further equipment would cost practically the same as that Nurgle biker squad with champion and 2 meltas (340 for the 10 bikers with melta, 341 for the Nurgle bikers, where I would say that the Nurgle bikers would be a far better deal most of the time).

What I was wondering is if it would be possible to maybe run them in 2 units of 3, and still accomplish the same tasks. If you can still upgrade them to be anti-vehicle at that point then you have the possibility of taking out 2 tanks a turn. You can also go up both flanks to divide the enemy even further. Your opponent can only take out one unit at a time too, so if they happen to have a mass of fire that can be directed at them you are more likely to only loose 3 bikes rather then all 6. I just don't know if they can take the upgrades they need to be effective at that size.

I decided to run the numbers to see how much more survivable the nurgle bikers really are compared to the normal bikers. I used 18 hits (because it makes even numbers) with T5 normal bikers, T6 Nurgle bikers, and the same 3+ AS.
Against str3 you have 3 wounds to either, 1 unsaved, against Str4 you have 3 wounds, 1 unsaved for nurgle and 6 wounds, 2 unsaved for normal. At str5 it is 6 wounds and 2 unsaved for nurgle and 9 wounds, 3 unsaved for normal and last I did was str 6 at 9 wounds 3 unsaved for nurgle, 12 wounds, 4 unsaved for normal.

I don't think there are many str 7 weapons and by the time you get to str 8 they are both wounding on a 2+ anyway. *Actually looking at the reference sheets there are quite a few 7s, but its the same 1 unsaved wound difference at 18 hits.
So against str 3 there is a 0% change, then a 100% change, then 33% then 25% change. Although in all cases it was a difference of 1 unsaved wound, just that in the case of str 4 the difference was 1 vs 2.
I'm not sure on the point cost difference or the weapon upgrade difference, but its fairly clear that their advantage in T is dependant on what you are facing. If you are facing a lot of str3 small arms fire you aren't gaining anything. If you are facing a lot of str6 shots (such as my eldar with a lot of shuriken cannons and scatter lasers) you have an advantage but its not as big.

[Eldan]

I suggest sticking to urban maps with Vassal, then. At least you can assume that buildings are square blocks higher than an infantry model and probably also covering walkers etc, while rubble does not.

[Erloas]

Well I don't want to double post but I gave it 30 minutes and no one else posted. Didn't want my last post to get too long with two completely unrelated things.

I had another 2 games yesterday, 1500 points against Orks and 1000 points vs SM. Both wins for me.

The game against the orks was a pitched battle anihilation game. I used a fairly similiar list to before but I dropped the banshees for another war walker and vyper bike both with scatter lasers. This was by far my closest game so far, but I ended up winning 9 kill points to 6. The scorpions really kicked butt, the missile launchers on the wave serpent and guardians really didn't do much at all, which suprised me. I hit a few times but with the T4 of Orks I really didn't kill that many with them. I also had a tempest launcher on my dark reaper exarch and it also didn't seem too effective even with the 3 shots.
The orks around here seem to win most of their games and everyone was fairly suprised that I won. I had the firepower and mobility to wear down his units and stay out of combat for the most part, though his special outflankers and guys with jetpacks managed to get into combats I didn't want them in. I was amazed that my guardians held the first round of combat vs his jetpack boyz. My scorpions also ate through 3 different units, one even being when they were charged.


The second game was a dawn of war deployment with a capture and control type (first objective based mission I've had). This list was 2 farseers (one with doom, 1 with guide) 5 pathfinders, 10 dire avengers, 2 units of 3 jetbikes, 3 dark reapers, 8 banshees and 2 war walkers, one with starcannons the other with shurikien cannons (due to points limitation). I had the banshees, doom farseer and jetbikes on one side to assault his base, my dark reapers and dire avengers on my base with the other unit of bikes close by and my pathfinders and walkers in the middle to cover most of the field.
He put a unit of 10ish marines in his base, a unit of scouts, a unit of marines, and a unit of the jetpack marines on the other side to assault my base. With his scouts he had someone that was able to pick out specific models in an enemy unit but I don't think he ever managed to actually kill anything with him. His unit in his base has some special ammunition that let them increase the AP or ignore cover (or something like that). They managed to kill the bikes the first turn and thined out the banshees a little but not much. He didn't realise until they got into combat that the banshees had powerweapons, he only had about 4 marines left by the time we got into combat though. On the other side I just wore down all his units, starting with the jetpack guys, which didn't take long with the reapers and avengers. I realised on the second turn I couldn't actually capture his base without some troops over there so my jetbikes jumped over there as quickly as they could, with him trying to shoot them down before they got out of his range, he didn't get them. His first turn he got a perils of the warp with his psyker even though I forgot to bring my Rune of Warding. I also managed to fail my psyker tests 3 times (I hadn't failed any of them in my previous games), one even being a perils of the warp, but luckily my farseer's helm protected him.
End of the game I controlled both objectives and had wiped him out to the last man. I lost 1 unit of bikes, 1 bike out of the other unit and 4-5 out of my 8 banshees.

I'll probably have a rematch against the SM player next week, but this time most likely against his tyrnids.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Thanks scribe. Our lowest has 450 points, so we are starting there. Heres my build so far. I need 65 more points, suggestions anyone? HQ
1 Shas'el Commander w/ Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, and Multitarget - 87 Points

Troops
11 Firewarriors w/ Pulse Rifles + 1 Firewarrior Captain - 130 Points
9 Kroot Carnivors, 3 Kroot Hounds, and 1 Kroot Shaper w/ Pulse Rifle. All w/ the 6+ Armor Save given by the Shaper -121 Points.

Fast Attack
4 Gun Drones - 48 Points

Total: 386 Points

I was thinking either A. Upgrade my HQ to a Shas'o, B. Give my Shas'el a body guard, C. Give my Shas'el a shield drone, or D. Get another quad of 6 fire warriors. With the shield drone and (if I can make one cheap enough) the body guard, there is also the option to give all of my fire warriors Photon Grenades, to warn off all them CC orks (Would I need it on all of my troops? Or would sticking it on just one be good enough to warn off one charge? I find it hard to believe that only 1 does the trick, as it seems good enough to warrent spending one point with every tau fire warrior unit).

[onasuma]

Get 6 more fire warriors and break the 11+ squad leader into a 7 and a 6 (no leader) that way, its harder for him to lock all of your army down in combat at once.

[grinner666]

Ummmmmmm ... if he takes six more Fire Warriors he'll have 17; a squad of six and a squad of seven leaves him with four leftovers. How 'bout a squad of eight + Shas'ui and a squad of nine?

:smallbiggrin:


One question - is it usually better to concentrate equipment (as in, put icons on the teams' champions, etc., so that the team has to suffer more wounds before the really valuable equipment is in danger) or to split it (so one doesn't lose as much at once, if it gets through after all)?

I tend to put all my eggs in one basket since the enemy can't target individual squad members unless he's got a Vindicare assassin as an Elite choice ... one of the reasons I love Vindicare assassins as Elites choices ... :smallwink:

Of course this all changes if you're considering having a squad accompanying an Independent Character. Then you want to divide up the "goodies" between your IC and your squad leader.

BTW I ordered a second Wraithlord (I'm converting bitz I had from a couple of old ones into a two-heavy-weapon version per 5E rules), a Wave Serpent, three Jetbike Guardians, three more Rangers and a heavy weapons sprue to bolster my Eldar yesterday afternoon; I can hardly wait. :smallwink: AND some rare earth magnets so's I can easily convert some of my stuff from Space Marine killers to Ork (well, horde) killers.

I've also found a couple more Warlocks and a support weapon platform floating around in the sea of junk that is my collection ... and still giving serious consideration to Prince Yriel and what other kind of Elites choice(s) I might want to take.

[Zorg]

Marine scout Sgt Telion can also choose where to allocate his Heavy 2, rending, pinning wounds. But in answer to the question, in a bigger unit all on one guy, for smaller units spread it around a bit.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Ummmmmmm ... if he takes six more Fire Warriors he'll have 17; a squad of six and a squad of seven leaves him with four leftovers. How 'bout a squad of eight + Shas'ui and a squad of nine?

:smallbiggrin:


I think he was saying to take an extra 6 FW's, then split the original squad in half. Giving me 3 squads of 6, one of which has a Shas'ui.

[grinner666]

I think he was saying to take an extra 6 FW's, then split the original squad in half. Giving me 3 squads of 6, one of which has a Shas'ui.

I hadn't realized you'd not included the Shas'ui in the number of soldiers in the squad. Okay, now the only question is: are you certain you want to have three minimum-sized squads against a horde army like Orks? Safety in numbers and all ...

You might want to arm some of your squads ... or at least some members in each squad ... with pulse carbines rather than rifles. That way if the Orks get too close, you can move away from them and yet continue to lay fire on them.

:smallbiggrin:

I love long-range assault weapons!!

[First Speaker]

I hadn't realized you'd not included the Shas'ui in the number of soldiers in the squad. Okay, now the only question is: are you certain you want to have three minimum-sized squads against a horde army like Orks? Safety in numbers and all ...

It's actually better. The Fire Warriors are gonna get slaughtered in combat whatever happens, so splitting them up means that only one squad can be killed each turn by a hueg ork mob.

[onasuma]

I think he was saying to take an extra 6 FW's, then split the original squad in half. Giving me 3 squads of 6, one of which has a Shas'ui.

That, except id lose the shas ui' in place of another firewarrior. The shas doesnt shoot any better, but an extra gun does.

[Myatar_Panwar]

True. I'm not really getting any extra equipment, and the only thing the Shas'ui really brings is a higher leadership, which probably isn't worth it. I think that in the end I'm just going to loose the 6+ AS for the kroot and get a couple extra fire warriors. Break up the main group and have 1 group of 7, and 1 group of 8. I think I have enough troops at this point though, and would rather protect my commander, as he is my only anti-armor unit I have. So I'll give him a cheap body guard with probably a flamer (cheap close combat if it comes to it) and either a burst cannon or a missile pod (burst cannon might be worth it simply because of the orc's crappy saves and its cheap). Also Target lock so it can focus on the main forces troops while the Shas'el focus fires the heavier units.

[Killersquid]

Well, yesterday I bought one of the new Battlewagons, and this thing takes forever to put together. Yesterday I spent about 3 and a half hours putting it together, and its still not done. I can only imagine what painting it will be like.

[Kane]

I posted this a few days ago, but due to being on the very bottom of page 44, and someone else finishing their post right after mine, it got zero responses. I'm going to list it down as 'lost in the warp', and repost.

Well, some redshirt at my store mentioned that Tau couldn't do anything but sit and shoot, and was gloating about how he loved to see the look on thier faces when they realized his Sternguard were better at it than they were. [Kraken rounds, 36", ap 4

I took it as a challenge, and went out and tried to find some other valid tactics for Tau, settling on 'ninja-tau'. Surgical deep strike heavy. Anyway, here's a list I made for review, with descriptions.


HQ:Cmdr. Farsight (O'Shovah) 170
Bodyguard:
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, fusion blaster, target lock 77
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, Twin-Linked fusion blaster, target lock 83
Plas rifle, Targeting Array, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
Plas. Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, targeting array, target lock 87
cyclic Ion blaster, Targeting Array, multi tracker, TwinLinked Flamers 71
Twinlinked flamers, multi tracker, burst cannon 58
Plasma Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
And assorted drones (1 maker light drone, 5 shield drones, and 8 gun drones, to fill up all 7 Hard Wired drone controllers. (185)
EXPLANATION: This unit deepstrikes, and hopefully will butcher MEQs, and be practically indestructible. (14 ablaitive wounds before you get to the battle suits.) Clocks in at 737 pts, plus 170 for Farsight.

Elites:
3 crisis suits, Twin linked fusion blasters, 2 target locks, and 3 shield drones. 184 pts.
Deep strike, obliterate vehicles. There's three of them so that I can roll that five or six on the damage table in one turn.

6 stealth suits, all with targeting arrays, and a single shield drone. 330 pts.
Deepstrike, and take out swarm-y things, or just inflict a lot of saves. 24 S5 shots at BS 4 (TA), possibly at BS 5 (ML drone).

1 Crisis w/ Positional relay, TwinLinked Missile pod, Stim Injector.
Positional relay lets me call in a single unit from reserves each turn on a 2+ roll. Makes sure I can deepstrike things each turn. On turn one, this, and possibly kroot and/or pathfinders, will be on the board. That's all. Missile pods because they'll let it shoot at stuff from far away. Stim pack because it needs to stay alive. (FNP)

Troops:
10 kroot, 10 kroot hounds. Infiltrate, and tie up nasty shooty units. (I'm lookin' at you, Devastators!)
Joy. I was typing this up when I remembered that I can't get Kroot with Farsight. 130 pts I have to spend on another troop choice and something else.

6 Fire warriors 60 pts.
The absolute minimum that I can spend on them.

Fast Attack:
4 Pathfinders + Warfish [Warfish=Devilfish w/ targeting array, Disruption pod, and SMS. 7 bs4 S5 shots.] Total of 158pts. Mainly for devilfish, rather than markerlights, because the devilfish lets me re roll DS scatter die if the target is within sight of the 'fish. Markerlights might help my other crisis suits. Or Hammerhead.

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead: railgun, burst cannons, multi tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 165 pts. Popping artillery, especially after my FusionBlaster squad is already busy, or before they've arrived. Also, just about the only thing I have that can deal with a Monolith.

Read and review? Suggestions for my other troop choice, or should I just have another 6-model squad? If so, what do I do with the remaining seventy points?



Oh, and, You do have the option to not field your two troop choices and commander at the beginning, right? They can come in from deep strike, right?

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well something happened and I ended up teaming up with the ork player and fighting two groups of Space Marines... It was horrible. Aside from our side playing especially crappy (ork player has never played before, and my rolls were just about as crappy as they can get (I had 4 sets of missile pods, and 1'st round missed with all but 1 of them. The rest of the rolls after were pretty much the same). Thats not to say that I wasn't sucking tactically as well, because I was), the other side was breaking a few rules, something I thought about quite a bit through the match, but didn't really discover till the end. To their credit, they probably didn't know either, but lets just say that it basically broke the game on so many levels.

Also, I was quite disheartened to learn that my Tau more often than not had a lower Ballistic Skill than normal Space Marines. We still have slightly better weapons it seems, but still...

Hopefully this will serve as a learning exercise, those four hours were obviously not fun to just about everyone...

[onasuma]

Everything has worse bs at a basic level than a space marine, tau just have huge guns.

[grinner666]

Also, I was quite disheartened to learn that my Tau more often than not had a lower Ballistic Skill than normal Space Marines. We still have slightly better weapons it seems, but still...

Well of course your Tau have a lower BS than Space Marines. Even with the Tau's awesome, vehicle-killing, freakishly long-range rapidfire and assault weaponry and armor better than most normal troop units, a Fire Warrior still only costs 10 points to a Space Marine's 15. That means you can afford one and a half times his troopers, hit him before he can ever hit you AND, with the pulse carbine, move-and-fire so the poor SM can never get in range for rapid fire. Whaddaya want for a lousy ten points?

:smalltongue:
:smallwink:
:smalltongue:

(Hint: Markerlights will make a large difference)


Hopefully this will serve as a learning exercise, those four hours were obviously not fun to just about everyone...

"You live and learn ... or you don't live long" --Lazarus Long

:smallbiggrin:

Probably your first lessons should be (a) don't team up with novices; fight them one-on-one until they learn what the heck they're doing and (b) don't team Tau with Orks unless you can somehow convince the Ork player to use up all his Boyz as roving meat-shields. They're better than Shield Drones (more wounds), though they do block line of sight if you're not careful ...

:smallcool:

(BTW yes, I am being facetious ... but only a little bit)


Everything has worse bs at a basic level than a space marine, tau just have huge guns.

*cough* Dark Eldar *cough*

[onasuma]

*cough* Dark Eldar *cough*

Never heard of them. Are they new?

[Dr. Bath]

I posted this a few days ago, but due to being on the very bottom of page 44, and someone else finishing their post right after mine, it got zero responses. I'm going to list it down as 'lost in the warp', and repost.

Well, some redshirt at my store mentioned that Tau couldn't do anything but sit and shoot, and was gloating about how he loved to see the look on thier faces when they realized his Sternguard were better at it than they were. [Kraken rounds, 36", ap 4

I took it as a challenge, and went out and tried to find some other valid tactics for Tau, settling on 'ninja-tau'. Surgical deep strike heavy. Anyway, here's a list I made for review, with descriptions.


HQ:Cmdr. Farsight (O'Shovah) 170
Bodyguard:
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, fusion blaster, target lock 77
Plas.Rifle, Multi tracker, Twin-Linked fusion blaster, target lock 83
Plas rifle, Targeting Array, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
Plas. Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, targeting array, target lock 87
cyclic Ion blaster, Targeting Array, multi tracker, TwinLinked Flamers 71
Twinlinked flamers, multi tracker, burst cannon 58
Plasma Rifle, multi tracker, missile pod, target lock 87
And assorted drones (1 maker light drone, 5 shield drones, and 8 gun drones, to fill up all 7 Hard Wired drone controllers. (185)
EXPLANATION: This unit deepstrikes, and hopefully will butcher MEQs, and be practically indestructible. (14 ablaitive wounds before you get to the battle suits.) Clocks in at 737 pts, plus 170 for Farsight.

Elites:
3 crisis suits, Twin linked fusion blasters, 2 target locks, and 3 shield drones. 184 pts.
Deep strike, obliterate vehicles. There's three of them so that I can roll that five or six on the damage table in one turn.

6 stealth suits, all with targeting arrays, and a single shield drone. 330 pts.
Deepstrike, and take out swarm-y things, or just inflict a lot of saves. 24 S5 shots at BS 4 (TA), possibly at BS 5 (ML drone).

1 Crisis w/ Positional relay, TwinLinked Missile pod, Stim Injector.
Positional relay lets me call in a single unit from reserves each turn on a 2+ roll. Makes sure I can deepstrike things each turn. On turn one, this, and possibly kroot and/or pathfinders, will be on the board. That's all. Missile pods because they'll let it shoot at stuff from far away. Stim pack because it needs to stay alive. (FNP)

Troops:
10 kroot, 10 kroot hounds. Infiltrate, and tie up nasty shooty units. (I'm lookin' at you, Devastators!)
Joy. I was typing this up when I remembered that I can't get Kroot with Farsight. 130 pts I have to spend on another troop choice and something else.

6 Fire warriors 60 pts.
The absolute minimum that I can spend on them.

Fast Attack:
4 Pathfinders + Warfish [Warfish=Devilfish w/ targeting array, Disruption pod, and SMS. 7 bs4 S5 shots.] Total of 158pts. Mainly for devilfish, rather than markerlights, because the devilfish lets me re roll DS scatter die if the target is within sight of the 'fish. Markerlights might help my other crisis suits. Or Hammerhead.

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead: railgun, burst cannons, multi tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 165 pts. Popping artillery, especially after my FusionBlaster squad is already busy, or before they've arrived. Also, just about the only thing I have that can deal with a Monolith.

Read and review? Suggestions for my other troop choice, or should I just have another 6-model squad? If so, what do I do with the remaining seventy points?



Oh, and, You do have the option to not field your two troop choices and commander at the beginning, right? They can come in from deep strike, right?

It's a nice list, but the almost complete lack of troop choices makes it a bit vunerable under 5th ed, what with only Troop choices being able to hold objectives/quarters/blahblahblah. The 130 points left over I would put into two small fire warrior squads (a 6 and a 7) and have all three of these little squads spread about your deployment area just to give your enemy's light infantry more problems. The only other thing is the possibility of losing that 900 points (:smalleek:) to either your deep strike hitting some terrain, or a fast moving assualt squad catching you and slicing you up, or even just tying you up long enough to stop it doing much. Whilst I think sinking so many points into one squad could work, and very well, I can see some catastrophic failures when using this list. Nice idea though.

[Kane]

Well, I will TRY to be careful during the deepstrike, naturally, but mostly, this seemed the only way that I could kill off most of a marine-type squad with one squad, one turn. Also, as I mentioned, I maxed out thier drones to give them as many ablaitive wounds as possible. (I would have added more markerlight drones, but I don't want to go out and buy extra stealth team kits just for the drones.)

Anyway, I'm CERTAIN that the maxed out stealth suit team will destroy any hordes I come across. (I have a friend who plays both Tyranids and Orks), but MEQs and TEQs are my real fear, hence the plasma-melta on the 7Samurai.

Speaking of which, should I keep the missile pods on them, or should I replace that with a fusion blaster, which would actually inst-gib marines and ignore thier armor?

And thanks for the response.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Speaking of which, should I keep the missile pods on them, or should I replace that with a fusion blaster, which would actually inst-gib marines and ignore thier armor?
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Go with missile pod. Everyone and his aunt are now packing 4+ cover saves in 5e, so it's better to just pile on the fire.

Again, I'd possibly worry more about hordes than you currently are doing. All of your antihorde capability is currently one unit (and your crisis team from hell, but they have better things to shoot than >100 orks). Most Ork or 'Nid players will be packing multiple maxed out squads of stealers and boyz in fast transports, so you'll need some way of dealing with those.

[grinner666]

*cough* Dark Eldar *cough*

Never heard of them. Are they new?

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding ...

:smallamused:

[Illiterate Scribe]

*cough* Dark Eldar *cough*



Never heard of them. Are they new?


You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding ...

:smallamused:

http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/5/5d/Smileyrage.png/119px-Smileyrage.png
Oh wow. Poor Deldar ...

See what you've done GW? You've pushed the DE this far to the margins?

[Eldan]

Hey, I have, in four years, never fought imperials. Only Tau, Orks, Necrons, other Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos and once a 2000 pts. Fantasy Skaven army on a really weird day.

[Winterwind]

I understand that completely, and that is the primary use for very fast units. However I try to keep the battlefield shaping units fairly cheap because in most cases it involves moving quickly either into dangerous situations or moving off to draw some enemy units away from the main force. With only two other units around to take advantage of the opportunities that the bikes open up its going to be fairly hard to make sure you have a unit in the right place to do it and if your opponent has you outnumbered 2 to 1 then they can send up to 4 units at any single target at a time and still have 1 unit left to harass or hold up your remaining two units.I see.
I shall keep that lesson in mind - always to make sure there are enough seperate units around to allow for more tactics.
Thank you for your teachings. :smallbiggrin:


What I was wondering is if it would be possible to maybe run them in 2 units of 3, and still accomplish the same tasks. If you can still upgrade them to be anti-vehicle at that point then you have the possibility of taking out 2 tanks a turn. You can also go up both flanks to divide the enemy even further. Your opponent can only take out one unit at a time too, so if they happen to have a mass of fire that can be directed at them you are more likely to only loose 3 bikes rather then all 6. I just don't know if they can take the upgrades they need to be effective at that size. It would be decidedly impractical to make them Nurgle bikers then (the icon necessary for that costs whopping 50 points no matter how big the squad is, so I consider it rather a waste on small squads), but otherwise it would be perfectly possible to make two units of 3 bikers, each with 2 meltas; they would come in at 119 points each. Of course, there would be only one meatshield before the meltas would be hit, then. Still, you are quite right - that would probably be a far more effective army under most circumstances (and for the price of that Nurgle biker squad I had in mind, one could actually fit in as much as three units of 3 bikers, two of them equipped with one melta and the other with two).

But it wouldn't have the same feeling as a huge formation of half-rotten, leperous monstrosities, bearing the fly-banner of the god of decay and coming in his favoured number. :smallwink:


I don't think there are many str 7 weapons and by the time you get to str 8 they are both wounding on a 2+ anyway. *Actually looking at the reference sheets there are quite a few 7s, but its the same 1 unsaved wound difference at 18 hits.
So against str 3 there is a 0% change, then a 100% change, then 33% then 25% change. Although in all cases it was a difference of 1 unsaved wound, just that in the case of str 4 the difference was 1 vs 2.
I'm not sure on the point cost difference or the weapon upgrade difference, but its fairly clear that their advantage in T is dependant on what you are facing. If you are facing a lot of str3 small arms fire you aren't gaining anything. If you are facing a lot of str6 shots (such as my eldar with a lot of shuriken cannons and scatter lasers) you have an advantage but its not as big.On the other hand, when facing something like Space Marines (loyalist or fellow renegates) or Necrons, with their S4 basic weaponry, the survivability of the Nurgle bikers is basically doubled in comparison to their unaligned brethren.

[grinner666]

Hey, I have, in four years, never fought imperials. Only Tau, Orks, Necrons, other Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos and once a 2000 pts. Fantasy Skaven army on a really weird day.

Hey, I don't care if he's fought them or not, but hasn't he even bothered to pick up the rulebook? There's an entire chapter on the Dark Eldar, just like every other major army.

:smallyuk:

[Eldan]

I realized something important when playing 40k against fantasy warhammer: against skaven, pinning weapons and large blasts are your friends.

[onasuma]

Twas a joke, but also something someone asked me recently.

[Ghal Marak]

Heh, just recently I picked up a Deamonhunters codex and fell in love with 'em. Totaly awesome Grey Knights with their Shrouding and Psycannons. :smallbiggrin:

But then I played a few games with them. It's realy hard when you only have 34 models in a 1000 point game against Tyranid! :smallsigh: I don't think I was playing them to their strengths though (plus damn genestealers wrecking everything they even get near). Also, the lack of heavy weapons was definately felt in my last game.

But, I still have loads of fun with them, so I don't mind losing too much.

So, anybody got tips on playing them?

[JMobius]

So, my first army is Space Marines (going to pick up Eldar and Tau over time as well), starting with regular 500pt matches against my friend, who is a long time Dark Eldar player. Damn, those terror/horrorfexes are brutal. Raiders sure are nasty for the price.

Any general tips anyone can provide?

[grinner666]

So, my first army is Space Marines (going to pick up Eldar and Tau over time as well), starting with regular 500pt matches against my friend, who is a long time Dark Eldar player. Damn, those terror/horrorfexes are brutal. Raiders sure are nasty for the price.

Any general tips anyone can provide?

Give us your army roster, it's just possible somebody here might have a suggestion or two.

:smallwink:

[Erloas]

So, anybody got tips on playing them?

Well I'm not positive on the abilities of the Grey Knights, but I believe they are close combat oriented SMs with a few very strong attacks. I'm not sure on your options so I'll go with that general idea.

The problem against tyrnids is of course that you just don't have the attacks to kill them in CC. Against some things you could probably do pretty good, probably the monsters with a fewer attacks, though they would be unsavable. Against most things in the army you aren't going to be going first and they are throwing enough dice (or ignoring armor) that you are going to have people die.

The one thing about all space marines though, is that while they specialize in one thing, they are better at their weak point then are other armies. Specialized marines also aren't as good at their specialization as other armies that are specialized in the same thing. Shoot marines aren't going to out-shoot Tau and CC marines aren't going to out CC Orks or Tyrnids. In some cases it comes down to stats/weapons, but in most cases it simply comes down to not having enough models, 50 pretty good attacks are better then 10 really good attacks.

So even with a CC oriented SM army, against an opponent like tyrnids you are still going to have to do a lot of fighting at range and try to avoid CC until you have the upper hand. The other option is of course cover, stay in cover as much as possible and force them to assault through cover giving you the chance to attack first. With the difficult terrain test they are less likely to get everyone into combat and it will take fewer wounds to make it so they don't get any attacks back.

Its a fight you are very likely going to have to turtle up for and wait for them to come to you, even if you don't have a lot of ranged firepower and even if you are designed to be in combat, you aren't going to want to be fighting hordes of tyrnids in the open.

The other main thing about being outnumbered is that it is much easier for your opponent to focus several units on one of yours at a time. And if you don't have your units close together to help support eachother then they can focus one unit down and suffer little damage in return. You might make a couple cheap-as-you-can-get-them units for bait to die your opponent up a turn or two and to make sure you get an extra round of concentrated fire or several of your units against a few of his in CC.

And of course when you have weapon upgrade choices you should be focusing more on mass damage and less on the big hits. You still need a few things to take out the mosterous creatures, but with psyker and force weapons along with a reasonable str you should be able to handle them fairly well. A 20 point monster killer doesnt do much good if there are 40 grunts between you and that monster and you can only kill a few at a time.

Of course that is all general and fairly straight forward, but without an army list (not that I know the grey knights anyway) its hard to be too specific.

The same concepts, but in some cases reversed (ie shooty marines vs shooty opponents) is true for all marines. Fight to your opponnets weakness, not necessarily to your str, because being a general purpose army SMs are out specilized but can still do a bit of everything. And don't let your opponent focus too many of their units on one of yours without making sure you have some way to make them pay for it afterwords. Which should kind of answer JMobius's question as well.

[starwoof]

I had a battle today, so I wrote a battle report. It was 1750 of my Chaos Marines vs 1750 Loyalist Marines. I used a totally gonzo list that I didn't expect to even compete with! It was Dawn of War, 2 objectives.


My list:

Nurgle Lord on bike w/ daemon weapon
Nurgle Bikers w/ plasma gun, mark of nurgle
10 khorne berzerkers in a rhino
10 marines of slaanesh
8 thousand sons + sorc
Greater Daemon
3x squads of 10 lesser daemons

His list:

Vulkan
5x Thunder Hammer termies
Land Raider
Predator
Whirlwind
2x Tactical squads
Dreadnought
Dreadnought in a drop pod -_-
Grey Knight Hero


I made my list on the spot, and I decided to use a bunch of my daemons. I was fully expecting to get blown away on turn one or two, but Dawn of War deployment and objectives totally swung the game in my favor. My opponent seized the initiative from me, which allowed him to drop a dreadnought with a multi-melta right behind my rhino. He blew off my gun, which I could care less about. :P

A little bit more shooting saw my rhino immobile, and so my berzerkers hopped out and ran toward the building the opponents objective was in. My biker lord turbos up right next to enemy lines as the other bikers roll in behind the dreadnought, stunning it. The turn after that they fried themselves with plasma while simultaneously exploding the dread. -_-

My opponents land raider rolled up to my thousand sons on turn 2, but it didn't disgorge it's cargo. I lose some berzerkers and almost my lord to shooting.

The greater daemon and some lesser daemons show up on my next turn. GD engages the raider and does nothing, but a combined charge from khorne berzerkers and lesser daemons sees away with two combat squads and a grey knight hero. I now have khorne berzerkers in a building with the objective. My lord whiffs on the squad he charged.

His turn the terminators hopped out and engaged the thousand sons and GD. I manage to kill one termie with sons, but otherwise I lose combat by a lot, and lose some more sons to fearless. Whirlwind hammers the building I'm sitting in. Lord finishes off the squad he was fighting.

On my turn some more daemons show up and charge the terminators. This time, Pete (the GD) kill FOUR, despite them having 3+ invulns, and the daemons kill the last one. The single remaining thousand son wounds Vulkan. At this point I've won combat by one... vulkan fails his morale and runs. I babysit him off the board with some bloodletters. Bye, Vulkan!

The whole game theres a dreadnought and 5 marines running towards my objective. I summoned a unit of daemons to engage them both, and so the enemies' advance is halted before they even reach the objective.

Last turn, the scouts move into the building with my khorne berzerkers. My lord whiffs on another unit and kills himself, allowing the unit to consolidate up to the objective. The scouts can't do anything to me because they ran. On my turn the two remaining khorne berzerkers finish off the scouts with plasma and a charge, consolidating enough to contest the objective.

At the end, I held one and the other was contested! The bizarro "Are you playing Daemons or Marines?" list came out on top, and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. :lol:

[grinner666]

Heh, just recently I picked up a Deamonhunters codex and fell in love with 'em. Totaly awesome Grey Knights with their Shrouding and Psycannons. :smallbiggrin:

But then I played a few games with them. It's realy hard when you only have 34 models in a 1000 point game against Tyranid! :smallsigh: I don't think I was playing them to their strengths though (plus damn genestealers wrecking everything they even get near). Also, the lack of heavy weapons was definately felt in my last game.

But, I still have loads of fun with them, so I don't mind losing too much.

So, anybody got tips on playing them?

From what I can see you can either play Daemonhunters as a Space Marine army, or as an Imperial Guard army with superior HQ, Elites and Fast Attack choices. In either case, against Tyranids I'd take some ordnance-type Heavy Support choices ... Whirlwinds or Leman Russ tanks ... in order to thin out the ranks of the Tyranid horde before it gets into assault range.

In any case I'd probably avoid mixing IG troops with Grey Knights in the Troops section ... the high cost of the Grey Knights will attenuate the big advantage of IG - numbers, and the lack of BS, WS and heavy armor on the part of IG will likewise attenuate the strengths of the Grey Knights.

Since it seems the psycannon and incinerator would be particularly effective against Tyranids, I'd suggest playing your army as Space Marines. I would, however, mix up Grey Knights squads with normal Space Marine tac squads ... that way you'll have some more standard heavy weapons available against those high-Toughness monsters.

Of course, this is mostly theoretical knowledge as I've never actually played or fought against a Daemonhunter army ...

[onasuma]

The stompa sneek peek is here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=12400001

[YPU]

IMHO that stompa looks rather scratch build, it doesn’t seem to have the detail we are used to from GW. For instance most of the armour plates are plain metal sheets and mesh. I don’t know what it is, but I find it somewhat lacking in some way. Perhaps it will come with an awesome extras sprew that will make up for it tough. No two stompas should be alike.

And a idea I had on the whole scouts are specialists rather then recruits thing. Most space marines recruit from feral worlds, such recruits would probably have infiltration and scouting skills to start with, probably having lived in a jungle trying to avoid mutated t-rexes and all. These recruits will later on be indoctrinated into being real space marines, this includes both bodily and psychological changes of grand scale, thus it would not be strange for them to loose their paranoid drifters outlook and adapt the “stand tall even if you are getting shot at” attitude marines seem to have.

[Tren]

IMHO that stompa looks rather scratch build

I think if you were to ask most people though, that's exactly the feel they want from an ork super heavy, the feel that it's slapped together from anything at hand and held together by muscle grease, gretchin paste, and because they're too damn stupid to know it should fall apart! It looks very detailed to me considering the size of the kit, especially on all the the absurd orky weaponry.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Bah. Real men build their stompas in a cave, out of scraps!

[grinner666]

Bah. Real men build their stompas in a cave, out of scraps!

'Ey!! Git dat runty lil Umie! 'E called us Orks "men"!!!

'Ere we go! 'Ere we go! 'Ere we go ...

[Illiterate Scribe]

'Ey!! Git dat runty lil Umie! 'E called us Orks "men"!!!

'Ere we go! 'Ere we go! 'Ere we go ...

How do I divulge this to you, Orkz ...

We created you. We are the brainboyz.

A man chooses. A model obeys. OBEY!

[Zorg]

I'd hardly call snotlings 'men'... :smallwink:

Stompa lokks pretty good - I'd swap the skull face for two big zappy eyes, but a pretty good kit overall.

[tyckspoon]

IMHO that stompa looks rather scratch build, it doesn’t seem to have the detail we are used to from GW. For instance most of the armour plates are plain metal sheets and mesh. I don’t know what it is, but I find it somewhat lacking in some way. Perhaps it will come with an awesome extras sprew that will make up for it tough. No two stompas should be alike.


Given the Ork players' community above-average penchant for kustomizin', I would guess the model was deliberately designed that way. All that big open space that might be covered in pre-chosen detail bitz for other races was left clean to invite the owner of the model to have some fun with it. And it probably will come with a sprue of assorted add-on bits as well, if you don't have inspiration for any of your own.

[Winterwind]

Shouldn't we be starting a new thread now? This one has hit 50...

(asking because I don't want to start a new discussion or ask questions which will be cut-off or forgotten because of a thread switch :smallwink:)

[evil_d4_swarm]

Hi. Can anyone tell me what the front armor of a Wace Serpent is? My rulebook says it's 2...:smallconfused: Is this a typo?
I hope not...
PS: Can I make the new thread?

[grinner666]

Hi. Can anyone tell me what the front armor of a Wace Serpent is? My rulebook says it's 2...:smallconfused: Is this a typo?
I hope not...
PS: Can I make the new thread?

It's 12. :smalltongue:

[onasuma]

Shouldn't we be starting a new thread now? This one has hit 50...

(asking because I don't want to start a new discussion or ask questions which will be cut-off or forgotten because of a thread switch :smallwink:)

Probably. Anyone want to do it, or shall I?

[YPU]

Eh, scratch build might be not be the best expression when concerning orks. What I meant is that it looks like many home made ones, if I would see the picture out of context I would think, hey that looks good well done. Not ‘hey, did GW put out one of those?’ that could be a compliment to all the home made ones out there, or it could be that the GW one ends op being somewhat generic like it should be. But for instance there is relative little detail on the armor plates on the skirt, using the urban basin kit and plasticard one could reach about the same effect.

[Bryn]

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6838/50page40kju4.png

[Erloas]

I think the stompa looks great. I think it is a great amount of detail that you can tell that many of the pieces of plating are from different types of metal.

I also think that its better that each plate is fairly blank and that its not ork-y down to each individual plate. For one, when orks do things they seem to do them big. Any individual design on the plates would take away from any large overall ork design and break it into a lot of little ork designs (little being relative to the size of the model). The large ork face in the center (just painted of course) works because what it is over is fairly blank, if many of the underlying plates had ork faces, teeth, etc then any overall design added to the stompa would be diminished.
And I think building any main emblem that is embosed on the plates into the model would be a mistake because not every uses the same main emblems and thats too much of the model to have 6 different pieces for.

(as for a new thread, I think we have about 5-10 posts left before page 51. I feel whomever starts it should start with something substantial and not just a "here is the new thread" post.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

Folks, link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608) to the new thread when you're done with the old one. It's Imperial Protocol. :smalltongue: