PDA

View Full Version : Warhammer 40K Tactics



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Shadow Blip
2006-12-10, 04:44 PM
Talk about tactics for all races tell us about your army and such we can give you cool ideas if you tell what kind of army your faceing off against! :smile:

I have an Ork army Im going have 6 bikes 1 buggy and a truck plus 2 mobs of orks. I may be playing against tyranids or tua. Give me ideas plz.

Bryn
2006-12-10, 04:54 PM
That's not legal is it? Or did you neglect to mention the mandatory Warboss?

Selrahc
2006-12-10, 05:24 PM
I play Terminators.(Deathwing)

Since they're great at everything, the tactics vary game to game.
Always try and keep out of gunfire of the enemy. Stay mobile, since it doesn't effect your firepower. Shoot the combat guys, punch the shooty ones. Dreadnaughts are pretty good firebases. Landraiders can be okay... if unlikely to get back their point costs.

And when you get a really bad dice roll and your expensive squad gets wiped out in a flurry of ones, try and not panic.


For Chaos, I play a combat army mostly. Tactics being CHARGE! Khorne berserkers, kickass prince, Bloodletters as backup when you get close.

Not much to say about them really.

blackout
2006-12-10, 07:11 PM
I play Tau. Lots of Tau, about an 8600 pt army for em. I have a large number of Stealth Suits, Fire Warriors and Pathfinders with various weapons, backed up by a couple of Crisis and Broadside suits, with vehicular/artillery support where appropriate in the form of Skyray and Hammerhead Gunships. Devilfish troop carriers round out my army, with a Tau Commander with the best armaments that points and money can buy.

Shadow Blip
2006-12-11, 07:09 PM
Ya I forgot the warboss.

Tell us some of your tactics blackout!

blackout
2006-12-11, 07:17 PM
Well, despite the belief that Tau are the 'dig-in-and-hold-out' kind of army, I always like to keep my troops on the move. I load up any Pathfinders and Fire Warriors I can into the Devilfish APCs, and my Stealth Suits, vehicles, and larger battlesuits give them covering fire until they can get to a location with moderate-to-excellent cover. Then I unload the soldiers, try to have them pick off some enemy grunts, and then it's back in the APCs and on the move again. Risky, but it works for me. Especially against armies like the Space Marines.

heretic
2006-12-11, 08:51 PM
I play IG. Shield your heavy weapons with infantry fodder, keep your flagbearer near your conscripts. Hug the cover, especially against nids. Deepstrike your entire army on top of Tau. It doesn't matter if they land on each other, twice that number would have died if you footslogged it. Outnumber the nids in individual combats so you can utilize No Retreat if you win. Drop battle cannon shots on closely packed vehicles or heavy infantry. Don't bother with monstrous creatures, that's what your ratlings are for. (supplemented with Kroot Hunters if you want) Hide your HQ. They suck. At everything. Outfit your platoon HQs with plasma and medics and play them aggressive.

Always remember to fire your battle cannon on the second half of the last turn in a semiclose game that you are controlling and have seventeen men plus a Leman Russ to his tiny four-man Inquisitor retinue that are worth just enough points to render a tie instead of a victory. Ahem, yeah. Did that in my most recent game.

DeathQuaker
2006-12-12, 12:52 PM
I play Sisters-of-Battle-heavy Witch Hunters. My 1850 tourney list is 3 units of Battle Sisters (1 of which is in Rhino), 2 units of Seraphim, 1 unit of Dominions in an Immolator, Penitent Engine, and Exorcist. My HQ is a Canoness, Priest, and Celestian Retinue in a Rhino. This is not an uber powerful build, but it balances between what I have fun playing and what is strategically useful.

WH are a moderately-good-at-everything-not-great-at-one-thing kind of army. They're good at shooting, but most of their weapons are fairly short range. They can deal with close combat; they can tear through melee-weak units like Tau, but low Str and Toughness puts them at a strong disadvantage against things like Nids, or anything with a lot of multiple attacks.

Overall, I find mobility and playing defensively to be the best thing. Rhinos are actually a good thing for Witch Hunters (whereas they may not be as useful for Space Marines). Park and shoot at midrange, try and keep troops out of close combat--use your fast attack and elites for that.

For Sisters of Battle specifically: Careful use of Faith Points are essential. Faith is often what allows Sisters to survive something they ought not. Spirit of the Martyr, which converts Armor Saves to Invuln Saves for one round is a life saver. And don't forget that you gain faith whenever a faithful character dies.

My Penitent Engine largely exists to draw fire. Everyone sees it on the table and freaks; same goes for the Immolator. By the time they destroy them, the rest of my army is in place and is ready to kick butt. I'd honestly get rid of the Engine and accompanying Priest and put in more troops or celestians or something, but frankly, I just think it looks cool and makes a nice speedbu, er, centerpiece to the army.

Favorite unit: Seraphim. They're expensive but worth every point. Upgrading the Superior to Veteran allows for 3d6 die roll on Faith Tests. Their weapons count as twinlinked for shooting and give an extra attack in close combat, and with jump packs they're mobile and can deep strike. But best of all, their Hit and Run ability makes them very helpful, especially against enemies that are slightly better at close combat than they are. If they get assaulted in the enemy's turn and make it through, they can leave the combat and auto-rally. If they aren't so low on numbers as to need to regroup elsewhere, they can then shoot the enemy with their pistols before assaulting the remains again. A very good tactic to use against Space Marines and the like, who are a little tougher than Sisters but still can fall to their bolter fire and a lot of attacks.

I've fought mostly Space Marines and Daemonhunters, and to a lesser extent Chaos Marines. It's important to play defensively versus these guys, but also be sure to get your heavy hitters where they belong and as fast as possible. Acts of Faith that boost your Strength and Saves are useful. I've played vs. Eldar and Dark Eldar and the key with them is to just keep up--the Eldar's speed and sneaky tactics are hard to get around, but if you can manipulate them to hit them dead on, you can shred them to pieces. Tau have the advantage of range, so staying in cover and focusing on getting into close combat is important. Imperial Guard are pretty easy to beat--they have ordnance and strength in numbers, but WH numbers are almost as good, and don't have the long range firepower but good use of Exorcists, Dominions, and Seraphim can take down IG's heavy support pretty easily. I've never played vs Orks or Necrons.

Questions or suggestions welcome.

blackout
2006-12-12, 04:03 PM
Also, another strategy I came up with. My Crisis and Broadside Suits, plus my Stealth Suits have jetpacks, so they can deep strike. What I do is form a line with my fire warriors, pathfinders, and vehicles, and try to keep the enemy in cover with heavy concentrated fire. Meanwhile, my commander and the deep strikers hit the enemy army from behind while their busy with the entrenched position. :) Ambushes are fun!

FarseerUlthran
2006-12-12, 06:26 PM
I play Eldar. I usually split my army in half. one half is the static shooting element and it focuses on causing pinning checks. The other half of my army is highly mobile. I use it to perform suicide runs, Hit and Run attacks, or surgical strikes at the enemies fire base depending on my opponent and the situation.

McDeath
2006-12-16, 02:30 AM
I play Necrons. My general tactic is to slow the enemy down as much as possible and pour firepower in, letting We'll Be Back take care of my few casualties. My Destroyers dart around picking on vehicles and trying to stay out of hand-to-hand, my Warriors shoot, and my Pariahs attack weakened units to make them flee, as Pariahs reduce Leadership to 7.
Best Moment: Veil of Darkness takes a squad of Pariahs right next to a full squad of Dark Reapers, who then fail their Leadership test due to shooting casualties and run straight into the Pariahs.

Everto
2006-12-16, 05:35 AM
I play Orks. My grots, slugga boyz and warboss move the fastest way possible to the enemy lines, the grots taking up all of the wounds or, if they survive, tangle enemy units up(specially tanks, I love the look on my enemy's face when I charge his predator with a squad of gretchin and then blow it up with the slaver's tankbustabombz:smallamused: ) the slugga boyz and the warboss take on the heavily armored guys(choppas give the enemy a 4+ save at best, so MEQ's are a waste of time agaiasnt me:smallsigh: )
Meanwhile the wheels in my army(except the Basilisk, it just sits back and kills:smallbiggrin: ) are going the back way, hugging cover like their teddybears, with the buggy's blocking LoS to the Doomsday pattern Battlewagon(a normal battlewagon with 3 twinlinked big shootas, 5 bolt on bigshootas and a squad of flashgitz with 4 big shootas:smalltongue: ). They aim for the 5+ Armour saves. That's about it.

Myatar_Panwar
2006-12-16, 03:53 PM
Hmmm, although I havent played for quite some time (due to the fact that my freinds and I discovered d&d recently, and all GW stores are too far away from where I live), I do remember some of my stratagies. I play Tau. So I basically do whatever it takes to keep a large distance between myself and my enemy (ya I know, big suprise). Heh, I esspecially love to play against the slower armys, like Necrons. Thats what my freind plays and by the time he reaches me with his troops (because thats practically all he uses in his army), more than 75% of them are either dead or regenerating. So I let my kroot jump in and fight off with the remaining ones, with my battle suits usually shooting at any not in combat. I try and always have my battle suits do this from a place that provides cover from all of their flanks. Then my firewarriors hop in a devilfish and get as far away from everything as possible. Ya, pretty standard, but it works.

Kython
2007-01-04, 04:01 PM
I play as a combined force of (Grey Knight loaded) Deamonhunters and requisitioned Space Marines. naturally my forces are geared towards being anti-chaos, but I find them almost as effective against the other races. my tactics mostly consist of flanking my opponent with deep strikes (Grey knight terminators, teleport attack grey knights, space marines), while a spearhead of tanks and grey knights/space marines breaks the enemy's line. Meanwhile I always have a Vindicare Temple Assassin to take out any major (non-daemonic) threats. It pisses my friends off so much when they suddenly find themselves without their HQ units and their remaining forces are completely surrounded.

the catch to using Grey Knights however, is that (in the 40k universe) they are never fielded unless there's a daemonic infestation, so my opponents get an unending tide of lesser daemons on their side... unless they're tyranid or Necron, so I have to fight my way "upstream" to the enemy troops that actually matter. to deal with this I have my non-deep-striking-Grey Knights at the front of my aforementioned spearhead.

mostly I've been playing agains Necrons, but also Imperial guardsmen, chaos (naturally), and orks. all of which I can defeat with ease;

against Necrons: use the Vindicare assassin on these targets -in order of priority-: Monolith, C'tan, Necron Lord(s), anything else. Why do I target the Monolith first? with a Vindicare assassin? because believe it or not, the Vindicare assassin using his Turbo-Penetrator round is THE most effective thing against those mothers. Honestly there's a 37.2% chance that with that single bullet he has, he'll destroy a Monolith in one hit! Meanwhile use as much long range weaponry I can against the remaining forces and have the grey knights assault the biggest groupings, allowing my terminators to use their Holocaust ability to good effect. keep this up until 75% of the necrons are dead.

against imperial guard: assault, assault, tank shock, assault. the guardsman are not the best shots, but enough of them fireing at once is devestating, so close into melee where they're slightly better than useless and victory will be in my grasp.

against orks: let them come to you, preferably in such a way that they'll be under heavy fire and/or flanked the whole way, by the time they get to melee with my terminators (at the front line) they'll be whittled down to a skeleton force. once the tide breaks, it's simply a matter of mopping up the remains before they regroup and come again.

against chaos: against chaos, my forces become EXTREMELY Grey Knight heavy, with just a few space marines, a few vehicles, an inquisitor, and a vindicare assassin. the grey knights will plunge into the thick of the daemons/enemy infantry while the remaining forces give what covering fire they can, and the Vindicare assassin takes care of whatever HQ unit(s) they field unless it's a daemon.

I've yet to face any Dark Eldar, Witchhunters, or Tau, though I've seen matches against the tyranids and eldar. but from what I gather, my stratagy against the (dark/craftworld) eldar is to pin them down and keep them from using their speed, against the 'nids: go ranged but keep plenty of melee fighters at the front, and against tau: vindicare assassin will go for the ethereal and/or commander while the rest of my forces assault the tau.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-04, 06:19 PM
Kython from the first sentance your army is Illegal, Grey Knights and Requistioned Space Marines can't be used in the same force.

Kython
2007-01-05, 03:33 AM
Kython from the first sentance your army is Illegal, Grey Knights and Requistioned Space Marines can't be used in the same force.

bah.
it's illegal unless the space marines are the base force.
then I am free to field up to 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 troops, and 1 Fast Attack from Deamonhunters.
you can even look it up: page 21 of the Daemonhunters codex, there's also a picture of such on page 33.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-05, 02:47 PM
So you don't play Daemon Hunters then, you play Space Marines with Daemon Hunter allies. Ha ha Crazy owl strikes again! I knew you could add Daemon Hunters too Space Marines but your wording sounded like you had Grey Knights with Space Marine Allies.

Kython
2007-01-05, 05:46 PM
the line blurs at times...

Mr. Moon
2007-01-09, 05:00 PM
Tyranids are fun. I've played with my freind's army, and am now working on my own (Hive Fleet consists of two half-asembled Gargoyles (nicknamed "Jubjub Birds" to stay with theme) and a Broodlord, but I think I may have some much-wanted troops on the way when my birthday comes up in a few days).

The tactic that I plan to go with: Go with as large unit sizes as possible, get to my enemies and rip them apart with rending claws and scything talons. The centerpiece will be a suped up Carnifax, aka: the Jaborwok. I can't wait to get one!

Although, if I had to be anything else, I'd probably be Tau, simply for the morals. I hate the Empire, and the Tau seem to dovetail with my interests. But Tyranids are fun, and go better with my perfered tactics.

Wehrkind
2007-01-09, 08:20 PM
Right now in my Battle Sisters army I am putting together:
1 Saint Celestine HQ
1 Inquisitor Lord & Retinue (HQ) (Vet. Guardsman, Scribe, Acolyte)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads, 10 woman, one with Imagifer (Troop)
3 Penitent Engines in one squadron (Heavy Support)
1 Unit of 13 Sisters Repentia (Elite) with attached priest.
1 Immolator (Heavy Support)
1 Seraphim Squad (Fast attack) 6 models strong.

My thought is to use the Immolator and the Penitents as a screen, allowing my Repentia to engage the vehicles and heavy/super shooty troops without being fired upon as much, and get the sisters into position to light up the less important units. Celestine and the Seraphim can cherry pick units that need hacked to peices fast, such as heavy weapons teams etc.

I am just really excited to see someone's face when 13 Repentia charge, rolling 26 str 6 attacks that ignore infantry armor, and roll 2d6 vs vehicles, as well as rerolling misses from the priest.

Any tips or suggestions from anyone? I am just starting the game, so anything would be good.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-09, 10:02 PM
Right now in my Battle Sisters army I am putting together:
1 Saint Celestine HQ
1 Inquisitor Lord & Retinue (HQ)
3 Sisters of Battle Squads, 10 woman, one with Imagifer (Troop)
3 Penitent Engines in one squadron (Heavy Support)
1 Unit of 13 Sisters Repentia (Elite) with attached priest.
1 Immolator (Heavy Support)
1 Seraphim Squad (Fast attack) 6 models strong.

General thoughts on the army list:

If you're using an uber-HQ like Saint Celestine, you do NOT need a second HQ, especially point-sink like an Inquisitor Lord. Choose one or the other. I'd personally lean towards Celestine, but depending on the rest of your army and how you want to equip the Lord, you might keep the Inquisitor instead. And in fact, since Celestine has a minimum point requirement, you might go with the Inq because then you can scale down and up more easily.

3 SOB squads GOOD. Important to have lots of troops and shooting. I might put one or two of those units in an APC though. Get them into 24" range so they can hit the enemy.

3 Penitent Engine squad.... eh. Actually, that's okay. Good H-t-H in a list that isn't otherwise close-combat list. Know however that Penitents are lightly armored... mine's always the first thing that gets blown up. Now, you have 3 so they're a little more survivable. If you haven't bought the parts yet, I'd say proxy the three and see how you like their performance toward committing it.

I know you're excited about them, and I wish I had a kind way of putting this, but sometimes you have to be frank: Repentia SUCK. They are so so so not worth it. Expensive, slow, poorly armored, and way way way too dependent on die roll luck to be useful. Especially since with their Eviscerators they always attack last. By the time you get them into close combat, most of them will be dead. They don't even have faith. Moreover, with 3 Penitent Engines who will mop the floor with any of your close combat needs, Repentia will just be a redundant point sink. The only point of Repentia is the cheesecake factor. Distract your opponents with the cleavage, and then move your figures around while he's not looking in the right place :smallwink: But seriously, no. Repentia are awful. If you feel bound and determined to have Elites, go with Arco-Flagellants (all the good parts about Repentia and none of the bad) or Celestians (actually competent at what they do and far more likely to survive with Power Armor, Faith, and guns).

Immolator: No point to one of these unless you've got some Retributors or Dominions inside. That, and your army is remarkably poor in anti-tank weaponry. For your second heavy support slot, put in a Retributor squad w/ Multimeltas inside your Immolator (with whatever weapons you like on that) or invest in an Exorcist (though mind you, the Citadel Exorcist is a pain to assemble). (Dropping the second HQ and the Repentia will give you the points you need to do this).

Pump up your Seraphim to a 10-woman squad. Use them to Deep Strike when rules allow. Make sure they have a veteran.

Wehrkind
2007-01-09, 10:42 PM
Hmmm.... troubling. My plan with the Repentia was to exploit their 2d6 armor penetration, while running them in behind the Penitents, who, being vehicles, would block LOS. I agree that they are somewhat less than exciting when it comes to chopping up decent melee troops though. I suppose their being infantry makes them a little slow to be tank killers, even if they get the 12" move every turn.

The Inquisitor Lord was my original HQ before I realized I almost had enough girls for a 1500 point army with Celestine (I bought her for the fun painting before I even decided I wanted the army). I figure I will keep them around as an HQ for lower point games, unless I decide to get a Cannoness, which I should given the theme. I honestly am not terribly thrilled with the Inquisitor business, but the game store didn't have much in the way of Sisters blisters, and at buy 2 get 1 60% off, I took what I could make.

With Serephim, can I rely on them as anti-tank troops? The melta grenades seem really slick for ganking tanks in close combat.

The immolator is there because I got it cheap off eBay (along with 3 penitents). Would it be better to remove the flamers and call it a rhino?

I am trying to make a mostly Sister army, admitedly as part of an elaborate joke, but I really want it to actually work. Hopefully without arco flagellents, and without assassins or other more inquisitorial elements. I dig the penitent engines though. Mostly for "Shoot me instead of the freaky-deaky S&M chicks with chainsaw swords" factor.

I intend to get an Exorcist since a little shop here had one (I was an idiot and didn't buy it, only to find the Gamesworkshop store in Philly didn't have one) and I was thinking some ranged support would be a great idea. Would melta guns in the SoB squads be a good stopgap for Retributors or Dominions to get the anti-tank punch? I am nervous about having a dedicated anti-tank unit instead of spreading out the love for fear of having it nuked one way or another, and being reliant on aforementioned chainswords.

Addendum:
Presuming I am aiming for a 2000 point army (which doesn't seem hard with some of the wargear options) I am considering punting the inquisitor, or at least making him an elite instead of hq, and perhaps putting in a souped up Cannoness (Cloak of Aspira, Blessed Weapon, Holy book) and her retinue of Celestians (figuring on a stronger melee presence.) So that, the Exorcist, and then I start looking at options for anti-tank. I would like 5 more Seraphim for their all around goodness, and a small Retributor unit for punch in an immolator.

Now, to fill out the last few points, does a Vindicare assassin perform as well as it seems to? What about orbital strike? The Vindicare seems decent for killing (1) vehicle, and picking off annoying figures such as Sgts and other men with tricks. The Orbital Bombardment seems like awkward area denial, but at the same time I can see that being useful for forcing units out of cover and off of strong points, as well as choking off convenient avenues of assault. So I suppose my question is, are these two worth the time?

Also, I was looking at the ArcoFlaggelents again, and I do not really see why they are better than Repentia. Two less str, two more toughness, same initative (last) two less leadership (irrelevant) and a special ability that gets them killed when it really works. I must be missing something. Is it the invulnerable save? Always getting an armor save is pretty sweet, but I don't know that it is really too fantasic. Granted, in this case it would keep heavy bolter wounds from being instant kills. I just don't have the experience to know if that is worth it or not. It seems like only heavy weapons are going to blow through 4+ save. Those and plasma. Hmmm.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-10, 08:11 AM
Hmmm.... troubling. My plan with the Repentia was to exploit their 2d6 armor penetration, while running them in behind the Penitents, who, being vehicles, would block LOS.

Double check on that; I'm not sure if an open-topped walker does (but I could be wrong).

The other problem with running them behind the Penitents is that you're likely going to end up with uneven distance between them, as Penitents will ALWAYS Holy Rage (getting their extra 1d6 of movement) and Repentia will only MAYBE be subject to Holy Rage. Also, a canny opponent is going to exploit the fact that Penitents HAVE to move towards the closest enemy--they'll move a speedbump towards you that the Penitents will get to first, leaving your Repentia open.



I agree that they are somewhat less than exciting when it comes to chopping up decent melee troops though. I suppose their being infantry makes them a little slow to be tank killers, even if they get the 12" move every turn.

And you're hoping for really ideal conditions if they get their fastest movement.

What I don't like about Repentia is that both their special rules are very dependent on die-luck--neither auto-activate. IF you roll a 1 or 2 you can Holy Rage; IF you fail Morale you can rush the enemy... I know at least with my luck, those things would never happen in my favor when I needed them to.

Also, depending on how a board is set up terrain-wise, your Repentia could get stuck somewhere where they're not going to really be able to charge forward where they should (yeah, Holy Rage movement ignores diff terrain, but that's it).



The Inquisitor Lord was my original HQ before I realized I almost had enough girls for a 1500 point army with Celestine (I bought her for the fun painting before I even decided I wanted the army). I figure I will keep them around as an HQ for lower point games, unless I decide to get a Cannoness, which I should given the theme. I honestly am not terribly thrilled with the Inquisitor business, but the game store didn't have much in the way of Sisters blisters, and at buy 2 get 1 60% off, I took what I could make.

Hey, that's cool. I've got a Canoness, Celestine, and something to make an IL with just for fun (I use a Canoness in my list, which I'll have to post at some point). And 60% off is always good. :smallsmile:


With Serephim, can I rely on them as anti-tank troops? The melta grenades seem really slick for ganking tanks in close combat.

Seraphim are a decent choice for anti-tanking, as they're very mobile with their jump packs. You don't even really need Meltabombs... equip a squad with 1 or 2 Inferno Pistols--especially since they're twin linked, you'll likely shoot the thing to pieces before needing to assault, and if you do need to assault, their default krak grenades should do fine. The only bad thing with IPs is their short range (only 3") but if that keeps you out of range should you accidentally blow the tank up, that's good.

Seraphim are a flexible unit--you can adapt them for anti-tank or for assault as you need.



The immolator is there because I got it cheap off eBay (along with 3 penitents). Would it be better to remove the flamers and call it a rhino?

I'd be more inclined to stick 6 Dominions or Retribs in the Immolator and keep it as that. But Rhinos can be useful too.



I am trying to make a mostly Sister army, admitedly as part of an elaborate joke, but I really want it to actually work. Hopefully without arco flagellents, and without assassins or other more inquisitorial elements. I dig the penitent engines though. Mostly for "Shoot me instead of the freaky-deaky S&M chicks with chainsaw swords" factor.

I agree... somehow the Inq elements seem less intriguing.



I intend to get an Exorcist since a little shop here had one (I was an idiot and didn't buy it, only to find the Gamesworkshop store in Philly didn't have one) and I was thinking some ranged support would be a great idea. Would melta guns in the SoB squads be a good stopgap for Retributors or Dominions to get the anti-tank punch?

It can't hurt, if you can afford it. And if you can afford one, try to afford two.



I am nervous about having a dedicated anti-tank unit instead of spreading out the love for fear of having it nuked one way or another,

Then Seraphim might be your best choice, as they're flexible and very survivable, especially with faith.


Addendum:
Presuming I am aiming for a 2000 point army (which doesn't seem hard with some of the wargear options) I am considering punting the inquisitor, or at least making him an elite instead of hq, and perhaps putting in a souped up Cannoness (Cloak of Aspira, Blessed Weapon, Holy book) and her retinue of Celestians (figuring on a stronger melee presence.) So that, the Exorcist, and then I start looking at options for anti-tank. I would like 5 more Seraphim for their all around goodness, and a small Retributor unit for punch in an immolator.

If you're going to have an Exorcist, I probably wouldn't bother with Retributors then, and maybe bulk up your Canoness's (or Inq's) Retinue instead.



Now, to fill out the last few points, does a Vindicare assassin perform as well as it seems to?

For 110 points, I'd rather have another 10 Sister squad than 1 assassin, personally. Or 5 Seraphim. Or add 25 points and take an Exorcist. And if I were to use an Assassin, I'd probably go with Callidus instead. OTOH, they are certainly effective in what they do. YMMV.



What about orbital strike?

No! Too expensive, too many variables in how effective it is.



Also, I was looking at the ArcoFlaggelents again, and I do not really see why they are better than Repentia. Two less str, two more toughness,

It's the 2 more toughness--trust me, a toughness of 5 is waaaaaaay better than a toughness of 3. They have the same armor save, but they are more likely to survive into Close Combat unscathed, whereas the Repentia will almost undoubtedly take casualties before they get to strike.

But I don't really like Arco Flagellants much easier--I'd just take them over Repentia.


Is it the invulnerable save? Always getting an armor save is pretty sweet, but I don't know that it is really too fantasic.

Tell that to your Repentia when they get hit by a no-need-for-line-of-sight Ordnance barrage that the Arco Flagellants could possibly have shrugged off.

Penguinizer
2007-01-10, 08:43 AM
Finally bothered to calculate the point cost to my army. got 44 points to spend to top off at 1000 points.

the army is :
1 Brood Lord with a retinue of 8 genestealers (all of them have toxic sack biomorph).
16 hormogaunts, all with toxic sacs.
2 groups of gaunst, one with spine fists, one with flesh borers. Both have "Without Numbers".
3 Ripper swarms.
1 Zoanthrope with Warp Blast and Synapse Creature as its chosen psycic abilities.
3 warriors. 1 with death spitter and scything talons. 1 with death spitter and rending claws and 1 with 2 sets of scything talons(the second of which I accidentally took from the Carnifex sprue :P)
And my Carnifex with the following Bio Morphs:Adrenal Glands,Extended Carapace, Bonded Exo-skeleton,Reinforced Chitin,Enchanced Senses,Spine Banks,Tail Weapon:Scythe,Flesh Hooks. And as weapons it has: Twin-Linked Devourers, and a set of Scything Talons.

Any constructive criticism is welcome and I know of my lack of a fast attack choice.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-10, 12:02 PM
For 110 points, I'd rather have another 10 Sister squad than 1 assassin, personally. Or 5 Seraphim. Or add 25 points and take an Exorcist. And if I were to use an Assassin, I'd probably go with Callidus instead. OTOH, they are certainly effective in what they do. YMMV.

I think it really depends on what you're fighting. If I were fighting Necrons, I think I'd want a vindicare or two on my side.

Selrahc
2007-01-10, 01:29 PM
The only armies Vindicares are really good against, are those with expensive squad leaders.

Chaos for example, can have this problem. I've personally played armies where every squad leader was maxed out on wargear. A vindicare against one of those armies, would get back its points every turn(With a little luck), and cripple the chaos assault power. Chaos is the biggest offender for that, but Space Marines and Eldar are the same. With the Imperial guard you can use it to take out all those annoying Comissars with power fists.

Crud against Orks, because their unit leaders woul take maybe three turns to kill on average with sniper fire.

Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Black Templars have weak unit leaders. So the ability isn't all that useful. Although an AP2 sniper rifle can be of aid against the big guys.

Honestly, in most situations, a regular squad of troopers will be of more use.



I think it really depends on what you're fighting. If I were fighting Necrons, I think I'd want a vindicare or two on my side.

Really? Necrons have absolutely no unit characters, no special weapon troopers.... I'd say some Storm Troopers with plasma rifles would stand you far better.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-10, 01:38 PM
Really? Necrons have absolutely no unit characters, no special weapon troopers.... I'd say some Storm Troopers with plasma rifles would stand you far better.

I say vindicares for one reason: Necron lords are not fun, and having a unit who can potentially harm (or kill if you're lucky and he's not) a Necron lord will cause it a lot of fear and frustration and give you a chance.

You are right, though, in most situations I'd rather have another squad on my side.

Penguinizer
2007-01-10, 02:43 PM
Why is that when ever I ask people for critique on my army the subject changes :P

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-10, 02:48 PM
Why is that when ever I ask people for critique on my army the subject changes :P

Nobody loves you. :P

But seriously, I don't know enough about 'nids to make a good balanced critique on it.

Penguinizer
2007-01-10, 02:49 PM
I suppose that would be the reason

PokeTheBard
2007-01-10, 06:38 PM
It's way too small. Your warriors and zoanthrope will die first and the hormies will become erratic.

Personally i'd drop the 'thrope and the termies and buy more hormagaunts.

Kython
2007-01-10, 08:05 PM
I say vindicares for one reason: Necron lords are not fun, and having a unit who can potentially harm (or kill if you're lucky and he's not) a Necron lord will cause it a lot of fear and frustration and give you a chance.

You are right, though, in most situations I'd rather have another squad on my side.

though necron lords are a major pain in the ass to deal with, I use the Vindicare assassin more for dealing with the Monolith. I've said it earlier, but the Vindicare assassin using his Turbo-Penetrator round is THE most effective thing against the monolith (yes I've calculated it out with every race, every troop/vehicle, every weapon combination... I have no life) with a 37.2% chance of destroying the monolith in one shot!

Penguinizer
2007-01-11, 12:21 AM
Only problem with getting more hormo gaunts is even if I drop re-inforced chitin off of the fex I cant fit in another 8 hormogaunts since then I would go over the 1k point limit I set for myself. And theres the fact that gaunts cost 30 or so euros per box and Im broke.

The Dirge
2007-01-11, 12:36 AM
I play eldar and in my experience the best tactic is to have a the center as your firebase and one flank as fast attack and the other as elites. Usually the enemy will try to assult your fire base and then you can use the elites to flank them and wipe them out. Or if they advance on the elites, the firebase concentrates on them while the fast attack attackes their firebase. Not a great offensive tactic though.

Wehrkind
2007-01-11, 01:39 AM
Because Sisters of Battle are vastly more interesting. Hehe just kidding. I would comment, but I know next to nothing about Tyranids, other than they scream flamer fodder to me.

Penguinizer
2007-01-11, 06:36 AM
What I will use as my tactic is try to keep the enemies heads down with warp blasts and deathspitters while my melee units run in.

Selrahc
2007-01-11, 06:58 AM
though necron lords are a major pain in the ass to deal with, I use the Vindicare assassin more for dealing with the Monolith. I've said it earlier, but the Vindicare assassin using his Turbo-Penetrator round is THE most effective thing against the monolith (yes I've calculated it out with every race, every troop/vehicle, every weapon combination... I have no life) with a 37.2% chance of destroying the monolith in one shot!

37.2%? No....

37.2% of getting into the armour perhaps. And then you need to roll to see what you do. Which takes it to less than half that chance.

Which means you spent 120 points, on a model that has one chance. And the chance is a statistical long shot.

Penguinizer
2007-01-11, 11:19 AM
Any idea what I should use for a 500 point army from the 1k point army?

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-11, 11:42 AM
37.2%? No....

37.2% of getting into the armour perhaps. And then you need to roll to see what you do. Which takes it to less than half that chance.

Which means you spent 120 points, on a model that has one chance. And the chance is a statistical long shot.

And I just realised something. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I believe the Turbo-Penetrator is useless against a Monolith. Against a Land Raider, these calculations would be correct, but the Turbo-Penetrator round cannot pierce the Monolith's Living Metal, which negates any extra dice beyond 1D6 with the exception of Ordnance shots.

Selrahc
2007-01-11, 11:46 AM
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/necrons/gaming/FAQ/assets/necrons_faq_v4-0.pdf

In the Necron FAQ's it says that the only multiple dice for tank busting is from a vindicare assasins Turbo Penetration.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-11, 12:51 PM
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/necrons/gaming/FAQ/assets/necrons_faq_v4-0.pdf

In the Necron FAQ's it says that the only multiple dice for tank busting is from a vindicare assasins Turbo Penetration.

Hm, alright, that's fair enough. I wasn't aware such a FAQ existed. To be honest, I like my ruling better. I feel that the assassin should be just that: something for killing characters and specific targets, not vehicles.

Kython
2007-01-11, 02:33 PM
Hm, alright, that's fair enough. I wasn't aware such a FAQ existed. To be honest, I like my ruling better. I feel that the assassin should be just that: something for killing characters and specific targets, not vehicles.

In my opinion, the turbo-penetrator round just screams "anti-vehicle" just by how much more effective it is against vehicles against troops, it inflicts two wounds instead of one... no other difference from a normal shot. the Hellfire round is much more "anti-infantry" simply by the 2+ wound chance. the shield-breaker is reserved for anything with an invulnerable save, the more integral/powerful, the better.

... and selrahc, I DID calculate it correctly, 5 times when I discovered that percentage just to make sure I didn't screw it up... 'cause the next closest thing is a lance strike orbital bombardment with 35.71%!

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-11, 03:31 PM
In my opinion, the turbo-penetrator round just screams "anti-vehicle" just by how much more effective it is against vehicles against troops, it inflicts two wounds instead of one... no other difference from a normal shot. the Hellfire round is much more "anti-infantry" simply by the 2+ wound chance. the shield-breaker is reserved for anything with an invulnerable save, the more integral/powerful, the better.

... and selrahc, I DID calculate it correctly, 5 times when I discovered that percentage just to make sure I didn't screw it up... 'cause the next closest thing is a lance strike orbital bombardment with 35.71%!

Yes, the round does scream anti-vehicle, but I think that the assassin in general should serve an anti-infantry role, not a vehicle killing role. Assassins kill important people, commanders and the like, and the Turbo-Penetrator is good at that. Characters fail before the might of the 2-wound shot.

Selrahc
2007-01-11, 05:07 PM
... and selrahc, I DID calculate it correctly, 5 times when I discovered that percentage just to make sure I didn't screw it up... 'cause the next closest thing is a lance strike orbital bombardment with 35.71%!

Prove it. Because I call nonsense on that.

The odds to destroy, from a penetrating hit are 50%. The odds of hitting are 83.333333%. Half of 83.3333333% is 41.67%

What that means, is that you say the vindicare assasin gets a penetrating hit on the vehicle over 90% of the time.

Now, I don't have the exact probabilities of rolling over a fourteen on 3D6, but I'm damn sure its not in the 90%'s.

I.E, you may have checked it five times, but you were wrong five times.

Democratus
2007-01-17, 03:37 PM
Well, here's some quick calculations.

On 3D6 there are a total of 216 possible combinations of the dice. Only 20 of these will result in a 15-18 (penetrating). That's 9.26% of the time. Out of these 9.26% penetrations, only half will result in a kill of the Monolith. Thus we have a 4.63% chance of a kill through penetration.

The chance of rolling a 14 (glancing) on 3D6 is 15 out of 216, or 6.94%. Out of these 6.94% glances, only 1 in 6 will kill. Thus we have a 1.16% chance of a kill through glancing.

So we have a hit at 83.3% (BS 5).

A hit results in a penetration kill 4.63% of the time --> 3.86% chance of penetrating kill
A hit results in a glance kill 1.16% of the time --> less than 1% chance of glancing kill.

Sounds like a far cry from 37%.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-17, 05:55 PM
Then we have a Hammerhead's Railgun. It has 66% chance to hit. Against an AV14 vehicle, it then has to roll a 4+ to cause a penetrating hit, so 33% of a penetrating hit. A further 4+ is required to destroy it, halving the chance again to 16.5% chance of success. Much better than a Vindicare Assassin's rather low chance. And it can fire again if it misses next turn.

Even better is a Broadside with the targeting array. 66% chance to hit but all misses are rerolled, so 66% of the misses are successes. 88% chance to hit, 50% chance to penetrate, 50% chance to destroy brings us to 22% chance of success. And, as before, it can fire again if it misses and it is also considerably cheaper than a Vindicare Assassin or Hammerhead.

So, with this in mind, I still submit that the Railgun is the most reliable anti-tank weapon when you factor in its lack of extra dice, maximum firepower and 72" range. I don't know why I calculated that out, I just felt like it.

Penguinizer
2007-01-18, 08:43 AM
All the math is making my head hurt :P

Selrahc
2007-01-18, 10:58 AM
You've got to wonder... did the guy actually try an assasin against a vehicle, and just get Uber lucky?

Soniku
2007-01-18, 02:11 PM
Personalized chapter of marines here (Flame vipers. Woot for horrible name)

Seeing as I'm usually against shooty armies like Tau that can't handle themselves my normal 2000 point army has a specially selected list of the special abilities from the "custom chapter" thingies in the codex I can get into combat on the first turn, each of my marines also getting one more attack than usual (no charge bonus, though)

Doesn't tend to work against close-combat armys, unfortunately :smallfrown:

stjohn70
2007-01-18, 04:46 PM
I have run a Sisters of Battle Mechanized list for quite some time now. I have composed quite a bit of tactica on the subject on what has worked for me.
(Since it's a LOT of info, I'm just going to provide links to the posts on Warseer).

1 - Unit Usefulness Breakdown (6 posts long) (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=440720#post440720)
2 - Faith Usage (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=440921#post440921)
3 - Mechanized Deployment/Movement (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=445724#post445724)
4 - Delivery & Sustainability (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=749341#post749341)

Enjoy.

Selrahc
2007-01-18, 04:50 PM
I can get into combat on the first turn,

How? Default game assumes at least 24" between you and your opponent. Nothing the Space Marine army can move that far and charge.

If you're playiing on a smaller battlefield, then the shooty armies get screwed over.

Murongo
2007-01-18, 05:09 PM
You've got to wonder... did the guy actually try an assasin against a vehicle, and just get Uber lucky?

I once lost my Grey Knight LRC to a hunter killer in the first turn. Gaarghblsh, I was pissed. (I won though, so its far less aggravating than it could have been).

Nothing though, nothing at all, compared to my friend who lost a monolith and a necron lord on the same turn... to the same predator. THAT must have sucked.

Ooo and I rarely field my vindicare but I chose to to snipe out an ethereal. It was a wild success, when his front line troops fled, they forced the guys behind them to save, etc etc, until most of his army was fleeing. I'm proud of him for the way he recovered though:

He bottlenecked his troops by running them inbetween two pieces of terrain to get off the board and then planted a tank in the bottleneck, forcing his troops to run all around the terrain and tank to get off the board, which saved him from losing a lot of guys (he had hugged the sides to stay away from my melee, so he was damn close to retreat even before the ethereal was killed.)

That was a damn narrow game, it came down to 2 of my terminators dueling his devilfish, but he forgot I had the remnants of an IG platoon moving up behind with a meltagun. heh.

Bryn
2007-01-18, 05:11 PM
Nothing though, nothing at all, compared to my friend who lost a monolith and a necron lord on the same turn... to the same predator. THAT must have sucked.

Did the Monolith explode or something then? The predator can only shoot one target a turn - only Super-heavy vehicles can fire at different targets. The only way I can imagine this happening is if the Lord was already wounded and got some bad rolls when the 'Lith exploded.

Murongo
2007-01-18, 05:14 PM
Did the Monolith explode or something then? The predator can only shoot one target a turn - only Super-heavy vehicles can fire at different targets. The only way I can imagine this happening is if the Lord was already wounded and got some bad rolls when the 'Lith exploded.

I believe the lascannon took the monolith and a sponsoon-mounted Storm bolter took the lord or something. I could have it wrong, I was playing the above Tau game at the same time this game was going on. I could be wrong about the storm bolter, although I was under the impression that if a tank dosen't move it can fire 1 turreted weapon and full defensive weapons, I thought only ordinance restrictred the use of defensive weapons on a stationary tank.

Oh but a funny story:
On the opposite end of the spectrum. One time my GK Grand Master and retinue took 2 full squads of warp spider rounds, a barrage from a Land raider crusader and a full fire dragon squad barrage in 1 turn and didn't lose a single man. (Me and my buddy who played space wolves took on two other friends who played eldar and dark angels).

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-18, 05:47 PM
How? Default game assumes at least 24" between you and your opponent. Nothing the Space Marine army can move that far and charge.

If you're playiing on a smaller battlefield, then the shooty armies get screwed over.

If you infiltrate under the right circumstances and got lucky, you could do it.


I believe the lascannon took the monolith and a sponsoon-mounted Storm bolter took the lord or something. I could have it wrong, I was playing the above Tau game at the same time this game was going on. I could be wrong about the storm bolter, although I was under the impression that if a tank dosen't move it can fire 1 turreted weapon and full defensive weapons, I thought only ordinance restrictred the use of defensive weapons on a stationary tank.

Yes it can, but it can only fire all of its weapons at the same target (Baneblades are an exception to this almost-universal rule, as they can fire any of their weapons at differing targets.) It would have had to explode the monolith and take the Lord's last wound to be within legality.

stjohn70
2007-01-18, 06:25 PM
How? Default game assumes at least 24" between you and your opponent. Nothing the Space Marine army can move that far and charge.
Scout Bikers.

12" pre-1st turn move
12" 1st turn move
6" charge
----------------------
30" of hello


(not that this mitigates the fact that Scout Bikers, as a whole, suck)

Soniku
2007-01-18, 07:57 PM
How? Default game assumes at least 24" between you and your opponent. Nothing the Space Marine army can move that far and charge.

Well, it does depend a little on special rules but usually it works. In the codexes custom chapter rules one feature, see but not be seen, allows you to pay +3 per model for all tactical and devistator squads to give them infiltration. So, on the typical sized map that uses infiltrators (which most missions do) if you get the first turn the enemy will generally be about 12" away if you placed your men right, allowing you to move six inches then charge.


Correct me if I'm wrong (I have been before) but the staff at my local GW say this is the correct interpritation of the rules.

Selrahc
2007-01-19, 02:59 AM
Scout Bikers.

12" pre-1st turn move
12" 1st turn move
6" charge
----------------------
30" of hello


(not that this mitigates the fact that Scout Bikers, as a whole, suck)

Very good point. Forgot that.



Correct me if I'm wrong (I have been before) but the staff at my local GW say this is the correct interpritation of the rules.

It's possible, but the rules for Infiltration say that you can be within 12" if out of line of sight of an enemy, and 18" while within line of sight.

Basically, you'd have to be lucky on how you get round the terrain that blocks the enemies line of sight.

Nix307
2007-01-19, 03:11 AM
hi. i have a space marine army. i usally take a libraian with t-armor and terminator command group. 1 dreadnought. 2 tactical squads of 10. a vindicator and an assalt squad any good tactics i can use.

The Dirge
2007-01-19, 06:59 AM
Imperial guard tank army with sweet sweet baneblades crush all opposition!

Soniku
2007-01-19, 08:21 AM
It's possible, but the rules for Infiltration say that you can be within 12" if out of line of sight of an enemy, and 18" while within line of sight.

Basically, you'd have to be lucky on how you get round the terrain that blocks the enemies line of sight.

Heh, good point, I guess the GW guys and I messed up on that one :smallbiggrin:

*goes to buy more assault squads and bikes...*

Bryn
2007-01-19, 01:48 PM
I believe the lascannon took the monolith and a sponsoon-mounted Storm bolter took the lord or something. I could have it wrong, I was playing the above Tau game at the same time this game was going on. I could be wrong about the storm bolter, although I was under the impression that if a tank dosen't move it can fire 1 turreted weapon and full defensive weapons, I thought only ordinance restrictred the use of defensive weapons on a stationary tank.

In that case he broke the rules, since the Predator has to fire all its weapons at the same thing. Not that it mattersnow.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-09, 12:55 PM
Hello, everyone, just joined.

I play Black Templars, and have about 4000 points at the moment. I've played against every 40k army, and have some decent strategies on how to beat most of them. I'm willing to answer questions.

tribble
2008-08-09, 02:30 PM
Hello. I have recently begun collecting Chaos Space Marines and I am looking for critiques on the strategy I have worked out. I am taking the following things so far:
8 berserkers (2 plasma pistols, 1 skullchamp w/ powerfist)
15 CSMs (Icon of Khorne (meaning +1 attack for those of you who don't know), aspiring champ w/power sword and plasma pistol)
5 possessed (considering a champ on this one)
1 terminator Lord with powerfist and combi-melta,
as many noise marines as i can cram in.
I live in a Small town (with the biggest hot spring pool in the world) so i only know 1 guy who plays 40k, he has a chapter of Space Marines of his own design.
My plan is to move out my soldiers to establish a forward position ASAP so i can get my noise marines into cover. from there i plan to dig in and yell "sonic boom!" every time I fire a volley of sound blasters and use my other troops to tangle up combat soldiers that want to charge my noisies. if that fails, I'll fire off a volley in assault mode from the threatened noise marines, and then charge in order to make use of the mark of Slaanesh.

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-09, 02:56 PM
You might want to pick up some tank-killing weapons. Necrons especially have a tremendously broken vehicle that will give you issues with hitting it in close combat, and since strength 8 is no longer good enough to kill armour 14 unless we're talking a Meltagun or something similar...

I recommend Lascannons.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-09, 07:44 PM
As a general strategy, faster moving cc "skirmishers" is a good plan when you've got valuables to protect. However, add some Havocs to your army, and another unit of Chaos marines tooled up for close combat. They can protect the Havocs, being "expendable", and if you add a lascannon to that squad, then they can even do the job.

Were-Sandwich
2008-08-10, 07:01 AM
In my (admittedly biased) experience, 40K and tactics don't really go together. Most games of 40K I've seen have consisted of both sides moving 6" towards each other every turn whilst firing, until they meet in the middle and fight in mêlée.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is trying to fit large armies of 28mm figures on a 6' x 4' table. There just isn't any room to manoeuvre.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-10, 07:06 AM
I was planning making a IG Regiment.. or, actually, a GvG regiment: Gue'vera Guard. Regular normal men who converted to the Greater Good Cause :smallbiggrin:

Giving them Tau colors, but playing them regular Imperial rules. Except, maybe, if I want some cross-armies help. I'd forbid myself the Inquisition, Space marines, etc.. but allow myself some Tau firepower. IF the other player accepts, off course.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-10, 10:20 AM
In some cases, tactics do go out the window, which is always fun. I think that may be why Apocalypse came out. In games of 1500 points or less, tactics comes to the forefront, as many armies (marines, chaos, necrons, Inquisition forces) don't have the troops for attrition style warfare.

Wraith
2008-08-10, 01:58 PM
Lots of interesting armies being mentioned in this Thread, though I am both overjoyed and terrified to learn that none of them resemble my own: Mech Eldar!

I find that putting 20 Wraithguard and 2 Wraithlord down on the table is sufficient to take on almost any number of Terminators, Land Raiders or Necron Monoliths, but then that's just me :smallsmile:

It's quite a tricky army to play - I have a core Troop choice of very slow, VERY tough foot-sloggers, surrounded with and counterbalanced by infiltrating Striking Scorpians and deep-striking Warp Spiders led by an Autarch, who provides some nice tank-busting ability - but very satisfying when it goes right, and I've yet to come across any one else who plays anything like it.

So it's either genius, or madness - the votes are still being counted.

I've had that army for quite a while now, though, and am feeling the urge to collect something a bit different. I'm working my way up to a purely (utterly and hideously expensive...) Grey Knight army, just for a laugh, though I'll probably want something yet more different (and not so difficult to play with) by the end of the year.
A 2,000 point army with just 38 models in it probably won't gather me many easy-won victories, after all!

I'm thinking Tyranids, unless I see some better alternatives mentioned in the thread. A Great Big Pile O'Genestealers sounds amusing, though a Space Marine Chapter of some kind would also make a nice change AND allow me to use my shiny new GK models at the same time.

Decisions, decisions....

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-10, 02:09 PM
Talk about tactics for all races tell us about your army and such we can give you cool ideas if you tell what kind of army your faceing off against! :smile:

I have an Ork army Im going have 6 bikes 1 buggy and a truck plus 2 mobs of orks. I may be playing against tyranids or tua. Give me ideas plz.

ya takez ya boyz, see, and ya send em at de squishies one afta anuvver until dey gets close enough ta crump doz gits right good.

betta take a lotta boyz, tho, cause ya might not have many left afta gettin in close.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-10, 03:13 PM
Wraith, though I can personally guarantee that I'm biased, you should try the Black Templars, or at least one of the more "outlandish" variant chapters. They work amazingly well when supported by Grey Knights, as the Knights can teleport and pin down units, and, conveniently, Grey Knights are the only psykers BTs can work with. With the Knights focusing on enemy psykers, swear any of the other vows as required to crush your opponent. It makes for a fun army with a solid background. Blood Angels or Space Wolves would be fun as well. Your Eldar army sounds pretty wicked, and in my almost 10 years of playing 40k, I haven't heard of anything quite like it.

tribble
2008-08-10, 06:11 PM
thanks for the help, but I cant add a lascannon to any infantry other than havocs, obliterators, and terminators, and obliterators are a contender for "shootiest unit" award. however, I could send havocs alongside the noise marines. another note: how is a lascannons range any help if my targets will only be 24' away?

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-10, 07:10 PM
The range is not the point. It's the strength 9. That's the minimum number required to kill armour 14 at this point in time, assuming you don't have any modifiers. Obliterators might be a good choice, since they can switch to close combat type weapons if they get charged.

Wraith
2008-08-10, 08:06 PM
The range is not the point. It's the strength 9. That's the minimum number required to kill armour 14 at this point in time, assuming you don't have any modifiers. Obliterators might be a good choice, since they can switch to close combat type weapons if they get charged.

I would agree with that, not just because they come with lascannons but also a large variety of other weapons (as I'm sure you know). Assault Cannons are great for mowing down infantry, and having a Flamer or two on the board is a wonderful comfort if you come across any pesky Kroot or Pathfinders in your battles.

Similarly, a friend of mine adores the tactic of dropping Dreadnoughts into play with Drop Pods and/or Deep Striking Terminators in by the bucket load. The look on his face when what he *thinks* is a relatively harmless group of Assault Cannons turns out to be a bunch of Multi-Meltas is priceless! :smallbiggrin:


Wraith, though I can personally guarantee that I'm biased, you should try the Black Templars, or at least one of the more "outlandish" variant chapters. They work amazingly well when supported by Grey Knights, as the Knights can teleport and pin down units, and, conveniently, Grey Knights are the only psykers BTs can work with. With the Knights focusing on enemy psykers, swear any of the other vows as required to crush your opponent. It makes for a fun army with a solid background. Blood Angels or Space Wolves would be fun as well.

Thanks for that, Gunslinger - that is pretty much what I was thinking, though I didn't consider one of the 'themed' Chapters like that. I'll be sure to look them over, the next time I have a Codex to hand :smallsmile:
I had been contemplating the Iron Hands Chapter as an excuse to include a bunch of Dreadnoughts and mid-range Tanks, but now that you mention them I really like the look of Black Templars' robes and general livery... perhaps a home-brewed combination of the two is in order.

Just in case you were interested, my Mech (I sometimes call it 'Iyanden', despite the blatantly incorrect paintwork) Army looks something like:

Farseer (Doom + Guide, Spirit Stone)
Autarch (Fusion Gun, Warp Jump Generator)
9x Striking Scorpians + Exarch w/Claw
10x Wraithguard with Warlock (Singing Spear, Spirit Seer and Conceal power)
10x Wraithguard with Warlock (Singing Spear, Spirit Seer and Conceal power)
5x Warp Spiders + Exarch and all the powerups
5x Warp Spiders + Exarch and all the powerups
Wraithlord w/Wraithblade and Missile Launcher
Wraithlord w/Brightlance and Missile Launcher
5x Dark Reapers + Exarch w/Missile Launcher and Fast Shot ability
Roughly 2000 points, after wargear and other add-ons.

The Wraithguard are excrutiatingly slow and short-ranged, although the new rules for running couldn't have made me happier, and as you can probably imagine there's rarely anything in the way of enemy Tanks left by the end of Turn 2.
I play it more for fun than as a deliberately powerful army, although having said that I recently brought in the Reapers because my trio of D-Cannons were too erratic, and (as I learned to great discomfort) the best thing on the table for killing my own Wraithguard!

Very much a Hit-Or-Miss army - of the 40 or so games I've fought with it over the last year or so, I've only notched 5 draws and about as many narrow victories/narrow losses. Everything else was a very definite Slaughter, one way or the other.

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-10, 08:10 PM
One problem you might run into with that as the new rules is the objective missions. Namely, only troops choices count as scoring units. It's a problem.

I like to run my marines troop heavy, though I do have a favourite squad. My Command squad. They're an ungodly expensive close combat unit of doom. Clocks in at something like 500 points, and that's before the land raider.

I don't use them much, though there was that game of apocalypse....

The Gunslinger
2008-08-10, 11:04 PM
Wraith, that is a bad-ass list. How do they do in close combat?

I totally know what you mean with regard to the look of the Templars, but even more appealing is their background- an entire chapter (of 5000-6000 Marines- much bigger) of zealous psychopaths. Back them up with some anti-heretic Grey Knights... your opponents' heads will explode with all of the kick-ass purity... or at least the jaw dropping look of the army itself! I used to play a coalition with a friend who played Daemonhunters, and we always had a blast (even if we lost, we dragged a lot of them down).

Wraith
2008-08-11, 07:23 AM
One problem you might run into with that as the new rules is the objective missions. Namely, only troops choices count as scoring units. It's a problem.

I have run into this once or twice already, and 'problem' is an understatement. At the time, I left one unit of 'Guard on my 'base', sent in the Scorpians to distract everything on my opponents and patiently marched the other 'Guard across the board and hoped their toughness/armour would see them through.

As it was, I got there in the end and my opponent turned EVERYTHING around in a desperate bid to dislodge them, miraculously succeeding and forcing a draw. In future, I will probably swap out a Wraithlord for a unit of Pathfinders and give my Farseer the Fortune power. Rerolling a 2+ Cover Save should keep them alive, while the combined might of everything else sprinting like madmen at the other army should be fun...


Wraith, that is a bad-ass list. How do they do in close combat?

Surprisingly good fun.
Wraithguard have a decent save and are the Toughest Troop-type unit I have come across, while being Fearless makes them a chore to grind down over a lot of turns. In response their WS is respectable and their strength is good enough to guarantee a casualty or two every turn, so they either win by attrition or require a ridiculous amount of effort to beat.

I don't think I need to describe the Scorpians or the Wraithlords' CC ability, except to say that the former occasionally gets swapped out for Howling Banshees when I know that Marines or Tau are likely to be on the agenda.

The secret stars of the show are the Warlocks, however; Singing Spears makes them just as good-a Tank Hunters as a Wraithguard, but even with an ordinary Witchblade they gets 3 attacks on the charge and all of which wound anything on a 2+ or count as s9 against vehicles.
It's very, very amusing to see what is essentially a supporting model take down a Leman Russ single-handed. :smallbiggrin:

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-11, 07:41 AM
It's very, very amusing to see what is essentially a supporting model take down a Leman Russ single-handed. :smallbiggrin:

Tell me about it. I have a few veteran sergeant models that specialize in kicking inordinate amounts of arse. One has a powerfist, one has power-nunchuks, and one is an old two-piece model whom I have dubbed 'Arnold'. During one game I can distinctly remember him standing up to an entire unit of storm guardians and a farseer in close combat all by his lonesome. He only died when they decided to run away, leaving him open to being shot by the Falcon for being a nuisance.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-11, 03:26 PM
That is tough. Black Templars are fearless in cc too, and being able to take up to 10 marines and 10 neophytes in one squad makes for some long, drawn out combats.

Rayzin
2008-08-12, 10:07 AM
I'm creating a Chaos Daemon army, with Khorne and Nurgle units probably. I'll be fighting SM's and CSM's alot. I need help on an army list that can fight them since im just starting out. Im only need 2-3 troops, a HQ and an elite since all our armies are quite small at this point.

Selrahc
2008-08-12, 10:40 AM
Well Nurgle is incredibly tough, Khorne can kill stuff. Take 2 Squads of Plague Bearers, 1 squad of Bloodletters, a Bloodthirster, and skip the elite choice to grab Flesh Hounds.

First wave, drop in the Plague Bearers as close to the enemy as possible, put the Flesh Hounds screened behind terrain. Hope that you don't roll badly on scatter dice, and that the Plague bearers can hold up to the firepower(They should be able to, they're fairly tough)

Give the two plaguebearer squads icons, so that if one of them survives, you can drop your Bloodthirster and Bloodletters right next to combat.

The Fleshhounds have an incredible movement/charge range, so they should be able to get into combat and tie down(And eat) shooty units.

Try and tie up the enemy with any remaining plague bearers. Then next turn your two close combat monster units should romp over anything the Space Marines have. Especially in a low points game.

Possibly instead of a Bloodthirster you could grab a herald of Khorne and two Demon Princes.

If you get unlucky, you're probably doomed. A bad deepstrike roll can cripple you, and if your opponents get a bit lucky they can wipe you out piecemeal. If things go right though, you can win pretty easily.

A 700 point force could be...
HQ
Herald of Khorne 70

Troops
8 Plaguebearers(Icon) 145
8 Plaguebearers(Icon) 145
7 Bloodletters 112

Fast Attack
10 Fleshhounds 150

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince 80
For 702 pts.
(Points are a rough guesstimate, since I don't have my codex at hand)

Rayzin
2008-08-12, 10:58 AM
I was thinking something like that, except i feel that I should only get a small squad of plauge bearers, with icon and more blood letters. Since im only starting i dont know if this will actually work out but with the squad of plauge bearers should be able to survive a round of firing right. Then let lose my bloodletters to rip apart whatever was attacking me before.

I know that im facing an army of 2 squads of 10 SM's, each squad has a flamer and a missle launcher.

The CSM's that i will be fighting will have 4-2 squads, equaling up to 20 marines, im sure about 10 of them are bolt pistol and chainsword with a mark of Khorne. The other half is 2 or 1 shooting squads with a flamer, a meltagun(not sure), and a heavy bolter.

Selrahc
2008-08-12, 11:08 AM
I was thinking something like that, except i feel that I should only get a small squad of plauge bearers, with icon and more blood letters. Since im only starting i dont know if this will actually work out but with the squad of plauge bearers should be able to survive a round of firing right. Then let lose my bloodletters to rip apart whatever was attacking me before.

You need to deepstrike in half your army. Bloodletters are really fragile, especially compared to their points cost.

If you deepstrike in a small squad of plaguebearers, a squad of bloodletters and a squad of flesh hounds hidden behind trees, then you will have the two squads that are visible ripped apart.



I know that im facing an army of 2 squads of 10 SM's, each squad has a flamer and a missle launcher.

See thats the kind of list you want to avoid if you don't have plaguebearers. He gets a crapload of anti infantry fire, and your troops have a mighty five up save. Don't take risks by minimizing your number of plaguebearers.




The CSM's that i will be fighting will have 4-2 squads, equaling up to 20 marines, im sure about 10 of them are bolt pistol and chainsword with a mark of Khorne. The other half is 2 or 1 shooting squads with a flamer, a meltagun(not sure), and a heavy bolter.

Hes a close combat army, but your close combat guys should annihilate his close combat guys. Shouldn't be too much of a problem.



Admittedly though if all you are facing is twenty marines, whichever army I've probably overestimated the ammount of forces you should get. But the basic idea is that your first wave is plague bearers and hidden fleshhounds, and your second wave is closecombat awesome troops.

Rayzin
2008-08-12, 03:39 PM
Looking over the Chaos Daemons book your right, thanks for the advice.

Victor Thorian
2008-08-12, 05:05 PM
Tactics?
in my 40k?
It's more likely than you think!


http://www.vassal40k.com/ to try these online. I've started using this to try out tactics before buying models as plastic is a brand new invention and it doesn't come cheap.

oh and I'm writing some Eldar fluff for a craftworld like Wraith's. My list will look similar to his when I'm done.
(I blame myself for my tendency of not collecting armies before writing about them )

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-12, 07:10 PM
Better than me. I collect my armies while writing about them, but I buy too much. So I've got a metric ton of unpainted minis and no time to paint them in. And I want more.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-13, 04:10 PM
I know what you mean. 90% of my marines are unpainted, and I don't have time, being in the military.

hamishspence
2008-08-13, 04:50 PM
Actually S9 isn't only way. S8, all weapons destroyed, immobilized, another Weapon destroyed or Immobilized = dead vehicle. Was rule in 4th, and they did not change it.

Also, S8 AP1 can do it because AP1 gives +1 bonus.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 12:10 AM
As a guy who plays a close combat oriented army, I fear vehicles. A lot. I do have a love for melta bombs, though.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-14, 12:14 AM
For H2H-armies, how fearsome is an IG command squad with 4-5 Flamethrowers?

Kane
2008-08-14, 12:33 AM
Well, played my first game with my tau. Kinda.

Since none of us have a complete army assmebled, but my friend Bomb, who plays Nids, has a lot more than Matthias or me, we set up a fairly unbalanced map; about four feet by two feet, about 1.5 SM tactical squads and my rag-tag group of Tau I've assembled from my megaforce (wanna get magnets before assembling crisis/Hammerhead, and want to learn how to paint it before I assemble the devilfish. (want to leave it's burst cannon turret mobile)

Anyway, it turned out to be rather unbalanced (it seemed). His nids looked a lot less when actually put out on the table and compared to our force rather than grouped on the shelf.

Tactics: Basically, the SMs and I were holding the line, and the tyranids were charging. (Should have had objectives, but created the scenario off the top of my head, and forgot). I used my markerlight to light up Bomb's biovore, and Matthias' missle launcher nailed it. (can ML bonuses pass over to allies, and can other races use the +1 to BS thing from it?)

I tried to keep some distance between the SMs and my FW squads, as I assumed that once we defeated the Tyranids, the alliance would fall apart. The game was interrupted before we could finish, however.

For stealthsuits, their burst cannons are labeled as "Assault 3". Does this mean that they can fire three shots in shooting phase, and three if assaulted? Also, do they sacrifice thier burst-cannon attack to use the markerlight? (Newb! First game! Please forgive!)

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 01:53 AM
Assault X means that you may fire X shots and still assault if you can and want to. What direction will you be taking your Tau in? I've fought Tau for about 7 years now, and can give you some advice.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 01:54 AM
4-5 flamethrowers isn't too bad, as I play Black Templars, but against Orks or Nids? Devastating.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-14, 02:12 AM
Hehe..

So, what should I do if I am playing against very tough units? Heavy Artillery? Heavy Gun points? Assassins? Lascannons? Mortars?

What's a good IG's attitude when facing superhumans?

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 02:36 AM
Plasma weapons are a good plan, however, a Vindicare assassin may be a better plan, if possible. Pinning, a variety of rounds, and all of the other assassin magic tricks could prevent some units from coming close. A Callidus would be even better, as you could Polymorphine her directly in front of the foremost enemy unit, forcing your enemy to fight her with everything, or walk around under an ordnnace barrage.

In hand-to-hand, try power weapons, and swamping them with attacks helps. A Leman Russ is a solid deterrent as well. The guard shouldn't despair because they lack a close-combat "punch", if you'll forgive a pun. Effective use of tanks, deepstriking Stormtroopers, and even the odd heavy bolter compensate for more than you'd believe.

But it's best not to let Chaos, Necrons, or Marines come close. After all, hellguns and flamers can only do so much.

turkishproverb
2008-08-14, 02:48 AM
But it's best not to let Chaos, Necrons, or Marines come close. After all, hellguns and flamers can only do so much.

In this situation, adding heavy flamers and Ogryns to your army helps alot. SO do DAEMONhunter allies.

Zorg
2008-08-14, 09:51 AM
I used my markerlight to light up Bomb's biovore, and Matthias' missle launcher nailed it. (can ML bonuses pass over to allies, and can other races use the +1 to BS thing from it?)

'fraid not, only Tau and Vrspid with an active Strain Leader can use markerlight counters (no Kroot either).


For stealthsuits, their burst cannons are labeled as "Assault 3". Does this mean that they can fire three shots in shooting phase, and three if assaulted? Also, do they sacrifice thier burst-cannon attack to use the markerlight? (Newb! First game! Please forgive!)

As mentioned three shots in the shooting, Stealth suits get two attacks if assaulted, and if the team leader fires his markerlight the other suits can fire their burst cannons, but it must be at the same target as the markerlight (and they couldn't gain a benefit from the markerlight unless it was a network markerlight, which I think only sniper teams can get).

To answer Solka, against Marines I wouldn't count on pinning, as I almost always feild a commander HQ so everyone on the board has a Ld10.

Autocannons are good as they have good range, two shots and can knock out most marine vehicles. You'd be wanting to blast as many rhino's as possible i'd imagine before they get too close.

A Leman Russ or two could provide some good heavy support, and battle cannons are lethal to marines. High volume of fire will bring them down, so groups of heavy bolters and missile launchers (massed frags will probably score some kills) could be a good bet.

I've found that without good vehicular support Marines on the move lack any ranged anti-armour (nothing over 12" on foot). Even then the vehicles can't be going more that 6" so unless a marine wants to trade shots with a guard army there'll probably be a turn or two of relatively unmolested fire.

Kane
2008-08-14, 10:51 AM
Thanks for the answers.

I'm liking the idea of mechanized tau because that would let me stick lots of vehicles in it, and I'd be able to get around the map quickly; the best way to hold objectives, it seems to me, is to move your FWs there ASAP so they can shoot at advancing enemies before they've come very far. Devilfishes seem to be the way to do that.

They're expensive, however...

hamishspence
2008-08-14, 10:54 AM
on the plus side, the scouts rule works with pathfinders and vehicles again: you can come on in a vehicle.

Not sure if it works for possessed who roll scouts: i'd personally say if you have chosen to put them in reserve, and you roll for them at start, you can immediately say, Because they are scouts, when they come on, they will come on This Way.

Rayzin
2008-08-14, 11:23 AM
The tactic of my plaugebearers getting closer to the enemy, then deep striking the bloodletters work. I get 30 S5, WS5 attacks, the enemy space marines or chaos space marines are instantly killed, my bloodletters doing 12-14 wounds.

But because i'm supposed to choose which half of the reserve i want then roll what which side i get how do i win if i get my Bloodletters from Turn 1? Over the next five turns i have my force slowly decreased as he continuously fires at me with his Heavy bolter, and plasma guns. How do i win?:smallfrown:

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 01:50 PM
If you get your more fragile troops first, maximize cover. Try to bait your opponent, inflicting casualties that way. Then, hope the Plague Marines show up soon.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-14, 02:00 PM
In this situation, adding heavy flamers and Ogryns to your army helps alot. SO do DAEMONhunter allies.

The Ogryns, yes. but you only get so many, and they're kind of specialized. The heavy flamers? Not such a good idea. They're hell on earth for daemons, maybe, but power armour has a way of screwing up battle plans. Go heavy bolters instead- keep the foe at arms length.

As for the Daemonhunters, I'd say that, while effective against Chaos, they defeat the purpose of a GUARD army. The advice has merit, as I've worked with the Daemonhunters before, and they're rock hard, but more shiny Grey Knights means less tanks, weakening the IG line. One bad deepstrike, and you're going to die. So, likely a bad idea.

Field more bodies, more guns to rain death from a distance, and maybe it is a good plan to keep a group of Ogryns near your line to deal with deepstrikes, or a unit that gets too close.

Selrahc
2008-08-14, 02:29 PM
But because i'm supposed to choose which half of the reserve i want then roll what which side i get how do i win if i get my Bloodletters from Turn 1? Over the next five turns i have my force slowly decreased as he continuously fires at me with his Heavy bolter, and plasma guns. How do i win?

You're a bit screwed over really. In a higher points game you can put some tougher guys in your second force, just in case, but for a low points game it really is a death knell.

Use cover, and hope that good luck follows in future turns.

Rayzin
2008-08-15, 01:11 PM
I need some more help... :smalleek:
How can i defeat a terminator lord w/ chainfist and lighting claw(even legal? dunno) and 4 terminators w/reaper autogun on one, and combi weapons on the rest. All of them have a powerweapon to i think.

hamishspence
2008-08-15, 01:18 PM
Not sure about ordinary marines but for CSM's, not legal. You can swap out power weapon for one other melee weapon, including lightning claw, or powerfist, but you cannot swap twin bolter for anything but combi-weapon, UNLESS, you are going double claws.

3.5 ed CSM codex, however, would have allowed it.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-15, 01:31 PM
For normal marines, that's legal, unfortunately. Terminator armour comes witrh nothing, as far as I know, and a lightning claw and chainfist are legal. At least, they are in 4th. I refuse to "upgrade" to 5th, and maybe your opponent did too. As for your problem, just shoot him, and if he deepstrikes, throw an obliterator cult at him. The squad can't be given arbitrary combi-weapons, as they aren't characters.

Selrahc
2008-08-15, 01:34 PM
I need some more help... :smalleek:
How can i defeat a terminator lord w/ chainfist and lighting claw(even legal? dunno) and 4 terminators w/reaper autogun on one, and combi weapons on the rest. All of them have a powerweapon to i think.

Um.. easily? In close combat you are much better than terminators, even with just bloodletters. Bloodletters on the charge should slaughter terminators, despite being less than half the cost! Terminator armour is nearly useless against power weapons, and his power weapons are going to be nearly entirely useless against anyone in your army. Terminators are in fact, not too great against demons.

Wraith
2008-08-15, 06:50 PM
I agree - there's a large amount of things you could throw at this guy and all of them would feed him is own legs in a humorously short amount of time.

Firstly, pick up the model and pull one of it's arms off - either will do, so take whichever looks like it took the most effort to paint.
As previously mentioned, CHAOS Space Marine Lords cannot have both a Lightning Claw and a Power Fist - if it's not got a PAIR of Lightning Claws, they MUST have one close combat weapon and one ranged weapon. Your opponent, according to the most recent Codex, has been cheating.

Failing that, take your pick from the following list:

# Your own Terminators with Power WEAPONS (Not fists) and/or Lightning Claws, and the Mark of Slaanesh. Fight fire with fire, and YOU get to go first in the Combat!
# Daemon Prince with a power weapon - Instant Death and he only gets his 5+ save. Give your guy Wings if you want to be sure of getting it done quickly.
# Chaos Dreadnought - Pound away with a Heavy Plasma Cannon, and then jump up and down on him with yet-more Instant Death Power Weapons.
# Obliterator Cult - Nothing says "I want you dead!" better than 3 Multi-Meltas to the face.
# 5-Man Havoc Squads - Optimum balance between Lascannon and plasma-guns, and "useless" guys with Bolters... :smalltongue:
# Defiler or Vindicator - Instant Death, AP2 AND takes out his bodyguard at the same time.
# Several mobs of Chaos Raptors with the Mark of Slaanesh and as many Power Weapons and Plasma Pistols as you can scrounge together - a Basic 5 man squad gets you 16 attacks on the charge, all of which go before the Terminators and all of which wound on 2's and only allow their 5+ saves.

Or all of the above, just to be sure. A friend of mine has an army built around this list, simply because he hates my Wraithguard so much and it's the only thing he has that can reliably deal with them :smallwink:

The Gunslinger
2008-08-15, 08:48 PM
That'd work.

Selrahc
2008-08-15, 08:54 PM
Failing that, take your pick from the following list:

Well given that he seems to be playing a Chaos Daemons army rather than a Chaos Space Marines army, I don't think that list is as applicable as you may like :smalltongue:

The Gunslinger
2008-08-15, 10:47 PM
A Bloodthirster would raise a little hell.

Wraith
2008-08-16, 06:26 AM
*blink*

For some reason, I misread "Plaguebearer" as "Plague Marines" and thought it was a mixed army. I apologise.

That doesn't make it any more difficult, however. Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are probably your best bet, though if you're sure your opponent isn't going to bring his Chainfist with him then a Soulgrinder would be a perfectly good addition to consider.

Kane
2008-08-16, 09:45 AM
Well, no tactics, but I hope nobody objects to noob questions... Between the rulebook I have and my codex, a lot of things are confusing me. (Oh, keep in mind I only have the Battle for MacCragge 4th ed rulebook)

1, Can you disperse a squad without it counting as moving (spread out to about 2 inches between each unit?)

2, What's with moving range? I.E., Firewarriors w/pulse rifle have the stats, 'rapid fire' and, 'range 30 inches'. If they move, how does this change?

3 I thought burst cannons, like the ones stealthsuits came with, got 5 shots. Not three. How do I figure out how many shots something gets?

4. Can someone explain how strenght effects damage? If something's strenght is x2 someones toughness, is this auto-kill? No armor save or something?

5. PLEASE explain CC! I don't effing get it!

~Confused n00b.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-16, 12:46 PM
I'll answer your questions, according to 4th ed.


1, Can you disperse a squad without it counting as moving (spread out to about 2 inches between each unit?)

That's a good question. If even one model in a unit moves, the unit counts as having moved. It's dumb, but there it is.

2, What's with moving range? I.E., Firewarriors w/pulse rifle have the stats, 'rapid fire' and, 'range 30 inches'. If they move, how does this change?

Rapid fire weapons can fire one shot up to max. range, but if they move, it's one shot up to 12".

3 I thought burst cannons, like the ones stealthsuits came with, got 5 shots. Not three. How do I figure out how many shots something gets?

The weapon's profile will tell you how many shots it gets. For example, Assault 3 means 3 shots, and the model can assault if within range.

4. Can someone explain how strenght effects damage? If something's strenght is x2 someones toughness, is this auto-kill? No armor save or something?

Strength affects damage according to the chart (in the rulebook). If a weapon's strength is at least twice its target's toughness, then it has the potential to instantly kill its target. It does not necessarily ignore armour. For example, a krak missile (Str 8, AP 3) hits a Space Marine Captain (2 wounds) in power armour (3+ save). It wounds, and automatically wounds, as his armour is only 3+. Because this wound was inflicted at str 8, or double his toughness of 4, he is killed.

The same launcher fires at a terminator Captain (2 wounds, 2+ save), and wounds. Due to his 2+ save, he gets a chance to live, as the missile is only AP 3. If he fails, the missile will take out both wounds, killing him.

5. PLEASE explain CC! I don't effing get it!

CC works like this:

1/ Eligible unit charges (i.e. hasn't fired heavy or rapid fire weapons)
2/ CC is worked out in initiative order, highest fights first. Cover provides initiative 10, power fists/claws fight at initiative 1.
3/ Use the "To hit" chart to find out what you need to hit, and compare strength vs. toughness to roll to wound.
4/ Keep track of total wounds inflicted on each side, not just the dead.
5/ The player who inflicts more wounds wins the combat.
6/ Check the rulebook for modifiers (i.e. -1 for being below half strength, etc.)
7/ The "loser" rolls a leadership test, including the modifiers for casualties, being outnumbered, etc.; unless the unit is Fearless, or something similar.
8/ If passed, the winner piles guys in, and now there's a bloody mess. If failed, the loser falls back 2D6", if they're infantry, 3D6" for bikes and cavalry.
9/ If this occurs, the victors (unless terminators) can pursue 2D6" as infantry, or 3D6" as cavalry/bikes. If they catch the losers, the losers (unless they're space marines) are wiped out.

That's a general summary. I hope this all helps.

Kane
2008-08-16, 02:04 PM
I'll answer your questions, according to 4th ed.


1, Can you disperse a squad without it counting as moving (spread out to about 2 inches between each unit?)

That's a good question. If even one model in a unit moves, the unit counts as having moved. It's dumb, but there it is.
Okay, thank you.

2, What's with moving range? I.E., Firewarriors w/pulse rifle have the stats, 'rapid fire' and, 'range 30 inches'. If they move, how does this change?

Rapid fire weapons can fire one shot up to max. range, but if they move, it's one shot up to 12".
Okay. Uh, for rapid fire, does it get numbers too? Can certain guns fire more than two shots when rapid firing? (I think I read somewhere that pulserifles get three shots on RF.)

3 I thought burst cannons, like the ones stealthsuits came with, got 5 shots. Not three. How do I figure out how many shots something gets?

The weapon's profile will tell you how many shots it gets. For example, Assault 3 means 3 shots, and the model can assault if within range.
Does Assault X mean that they can fire X many shots in assault, too?

4. Can someone explain how strenght effects damage? If something's strenght is x2 someones toughness, is this auto-kill? No armor save or something?

Strength affects damage according to the chart (in the rulebook). If a weapon's strength is at least twice its target's toughness, then it has the potential to instantly kill its target. It does not necessarily ignore armour. For example, a krak missile (Str 8, AP 3) hits a Space Marine Captain (2 wounds) in power armour (3+ save). It wounds, and automatically wounds, as his armour is only 3+. Because this wound was inflicted at str 8, or double his toughness of 4, he is killed.

The same launcher fires at a terminator Captain (2 wounds, 2+ save), and wounds. Due to his 2+ save, he gets a chance to live, as the missile is only AP 3. If he fails, the missile will take out both wounds, killing him.
Oh. Oh. I think some of this is making sense. The Armor rating is not a stat, but the value of the save (3+, 5+, 2+), and the A column is attacks, I think I remember. (I got really confused when trying to firgure out how melee worked.)

5. PLEASE explain CC! I don't effing get it!

CC works like this:

1/ Eligible unit charges (i.e. hasn't fired heavy or rapid fire weapons)
2/ CC is worked out in initiative order, highest fights first. Cover provides initiative 10, power fists/claws fight at initiative 1.
3/ Use the "To hit" chart to find out what you need to hit, and compare strength vs. toughness to roll to wound.
4/ Keep track of total wounds inflicted on each side, not just the dead.
5/ The player who inflicts more wounds wins the combat.
6/ Check the rulebook for modifiers (i.e. -1 for being below half strength, etc.)
7/ The "loser" rolls a leadership test, including the modifiers for casualties, being outnumbered, etc.; unless the unit is Fearless, or something similar.
8/ If passed, the winner piles guys in, and now there's a bloody mess. If failed, the loser falls back 2D6", if they're infantry, 3D6" for bikes and cavalry.
9/ If this occurs, the victors (unless terminators) can pursue 2D6" as infantry, or 3D6" as cavalry/bikes. If they catch the losers, the losers (unless they're space marines) are wiped out.

That's a general summary. I hope this all helps. Thank you so much. This is infinitely more comprehensible than the gobbledygook the rule book seemed to be spewing. I think now that if I can just remember all pertinent information next time, I might actually have us playing a relatively legal game. (I seem to have been volunteered as the one to learn the rules and teach it to everyone else.)

The Gunslinger
2008-08-16, 04:28 PM
You can't shoot in assault, as this would break the game. Rapid fire is 2 shots up to half range if the unit doesn't move. Having fought Tau for a long time, I can say that I think it's just 2 shots, even for pulse rifles. If you have any more questions, let me know. Good luck!

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-17, 12:54 AM
Hmm.. I am planning to do a Gue'Vera Guard unit, so fluff-wise, I wouldn't accept DaemonHunter's "reinforcement", I would have to go with Tau reinforcement. Do the Tau have good HtH units to stand against Space Marines? (I know the Tau are even more fragile than the IG in HtH, but maybe they got auxiliaries?)

turkishproverb
2008-08-17, 01:32 AM
The Ogryns, yes. but you only get so many, and they're kind of specialized. The heavy flamers? Not such a good idea. They're hell on earth for daemons, maybe, but power armour has a way of screwing up battle plans. Go heavy bolters instead- keep the foe at arms length.

As for the Daemonhunters, I'd say that, while effective against Chaos, they defeat the purpose of a GUARD army. The advice has merit, as I've worked with the Daemonhunters before, and they're rock hard, but more shiny Grey Knights means less tanks, weakening the IG line. One bad deepstrike, and you're going to die. So, likely a bad idea.

Field more bodies, more guns to rain death from a distance, and maybe it is a good plan to keep a group of Ogryns near your line to deal with deepstrikes, or a unit that gets too close.

Huh. I used to build my guard armies virtually tankless. And win. Alot.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-17, 01:56 AM
Huh. I used to build my guard armies virtually tankless. And win. Alot.

Clearly, it's a mean to gain the advantage of surprise. You are more clever than I thought. (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0021.html)

Joke aside, I can see the attraction. The ennemy probably loaded up on anti-tank weapons, knowing he would fight an IG army, and thu wasted a lot of points while your Imperial Worms rushed him quicker than an Orc WAAAAGH!!!

turkishproverb
2008-08-17, 02:23 AM
To say nothing of the fact that You'd be amazed the crap you can actually be pulled by using guardsmen in the 3rd and 4th ed codex.

Kane
2008-08-17, 02:23 AM
You can't shoot in assault, as this would break the game. Rapid fire is 2 shots up to half range if the unit doesn't move. Having fought Tau for a long time, I can say that I think it's just 2 shots, even for pulse rifles. If you have any more questions, let me know. Good luck!

Erm. What about flamers? Can flamers be used in CC? Cause I thought they could. (Not that that means too much.)

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-17, 02:36 AM
Hum.. how good are sniper rifles against Space Marines, Necrons, and other high-toughness ennemies?

Dervag
2008-08-17, 03:33 AM
Looking at the numbers, you'd expect them to be good at hitting but bad at penetrating armor. They'll hurt the target half the time if they can break the armor, but since high-toughness enemies usually have good armor saves that could be a problem.

Bryn
2008-08-17, 03:43 AM
I hope not to be accused of being overly picky, so hopefully Gunslinger you won't mind if I contradict you on a couple of things.


2, What's with moving range? I.E., Firewarriors w/pulse rifle have the stats, 'rapid fire' and, 'range 30 inches'. If they move, how does this change?

Rapid fire weapons can fire one shot up to max. range, but if they move, it's one shot up to 12".
Not quite.
If you don't move, you can fire one shot up to max range. Alternatively, you can fire 2 shots at 12" range.
If you do move, your only choice is to fire 2 shots at 12" range.


9/ If this occurs, the victors (unless terminators) can pursue 2D6" as infantry, or 3D6" as cavalry/bikes. If they catch the losers, the losers (unless they're space marines) are wiped out.
The close combat explanation is fine up to here.
If the loser falls back, both units roll 1d6 and add their Initiative score (the score of the majority if there is more than one).

If the fleeing unit rolls higher, they fall back normally.
If the unit who won the combat rolls equal to the enemy or higher, the fleeing unit is completely wiped out.

Regardless of whether the losers of the combat fall back or not, the winners can consolidate 1d6" in any direction (roll for the whole squad), after which they have to end up within 2" of each other. As of 5e, they cannot use this consolidation move to end up in close combat!

I generally find the 5e rulebook explains all the rules fairly clearly, perhaps more so than the 4e one, so I reccomend taking a look at that if you haven't already.
[hr]

Erm. What about flamers? Can flamers be used in CC? Cause I thought they could. (Not that that means too much.)
Afraid not. No shooting weapons can be used in CC.

There is an exception to this, but not in the main game. In Imperial Armour Volume IV: The Anphelion Project, there are rules for fighting in complexes. These include rules for a "Stand and Fire" option in close combat. If a unit gets charged, they can go without any combat attacks at all in favour of firing most of their weapons (there are rules on what can and cannot be fired in IA4).
[hr]
Does anyone have Imperial Armour 1, and if so, would you be willing to look up the stats of the Salamander to see if it has any transport space? My reason for asking is that I want a Fast Vehicle in which to place my Command Squads. I'm probably going to take a Centaur anyway, but the command-pattern Salamander has a heavy flamer, which would be handy to help burn the Tyranid hordes. Ave Imperator!

Wraith
2008-08-17, 08:32 AM
Hmm.. I am planning to do a Gue'Vera Guard unit, so fluff-wise, I wouldn't accept DaemonHunter's "reinforcement", I would have to go with Tau reinforcement. Do the Tau have good HtH units to stand against Space Marines? (I know the Tau are even more fragile than the IG in HtH, but maybe they got auxiliaries?)

Tau really aren't built for Close Combat - it isn't a rumour or a generalisation, they are quite distinctly biased against it.

All Tau are WS2, with the exception of some of their "Squad Sergeant" models which are WS3, Stealth Suits (WS3) and anything wearing a VX8 Crisis Suit (WS3). Only 2 Tau models in the entire army have power weapons, and both are special characters.
If you really, really want to use Tau in CC, Crisis suits are probably your only hope as - although they are Elites and therefore very expensive to take risks with - they do have A2 as standard, and their Strength/Armour Save will serve them better than most things.

By and large, Kroot are your best bet for close combat. They're not much better fighters than Tau, but they have more attacks and are a lot cheaper, which means they're perfect for tying up an enemy while you surround them with your Tanks and missile launchers rather than sacrifice some of your precious guns to do so.

Against Marines, I'd recommend that you stay out of Close Combat at all costs.
Failing that, either take a LOT of Kroot, try to justify the inclusion of Ogryns into your army, or instead invest in Commander Farsight and some of his Bodyguards. The latter is probably the best you can hope for, short of some really, REALLY lucky rolls with your flechette launchers...


Hum.. how good are sniper rifles against Space Marines, Necrons, and other high-toughness enemies?

Variable, depending on what kind of Snipers you have. Human and Tau Snipers have slightly different rules to Eldar, and I only play the latter, but here's what I have learned.
They're just too expensive to use en masse, making them only annoyances against horde armies, and their AP just isn't up to the task of reliably taking out anything in Carapace (4+) Armour or better. Unless you're assured of seeing lots of Independent Characters in your opponents' armies, which are sometimes a viable target depending on who they are and what they're doing, I wouldn't bother.

Having said that, they're sometimes quite useful for taking out Large, Tough Creatures like Wraithlord and Carnifex. These sorts of things usually require anti-tank weaponry to take down, which can often be put to better use taking out tanks and larger numbers of closely packed infantry.
Snipers ignore ridiculously high toughness values, and Monstrous Creatures generally lack a brilliant armour save, so a Squad of 5 or 6 Snipers acting without help from other units can usually be trusted to take out something like a Wraithlord in a couple of turns or so.

So against Marines and Necrons? The answer is usually "Not much, because their armour is more use to them than their Toughness and Sniper Rifles prefer it the other way around".


Does anyone have Imperial Armour 1, and if so, would you be willing to look up the stats of the Salamander to see if it has any transport space?

No, they don't. Your original choice in the Centaur is a much better one :smallsmile:

Bryn
2008-08-17, 08:46 AM
No, they don't. Your original choice in the Centaur is a much better one :smallsmile:
Ah, thanks for the info! I guess I was only really interested in the Salamander due to a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, since the Centaur is a much better model. :smallbiggrin:

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-17, 10:24 AM
Ah, thanks for the info! I guess I was only really interested in the Salamander due to a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, since the Centaur is a much better model. :smallbiggrin:

Curse you! Now I want to convert a salamander model being ridden by CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, with Gunner Jurgen as the driver. I could turn it into a little diorama, with civilians running for cover and a trail of destruction in it's wake.

Gunner Jurgen's driving skills are.. well, let's not go there.

Kane
2008-08-17, 10:55 AM
Not quite.
If you don't move, you can fire one shot up to max range. Alternatively, you can fire 2 shots at 12" range.
If you do move, your only choice is to fire 2 shots at 12" range.



Oh. Awesome! That means there's a lot less of a penalty to moving than I thought there was. Thanks!

The Gunslinger
2008-08-17, 02:34 PM
Hmm.. I am planning to do a Gue'Vera Guard unit, so fluff-wise, I wouldn't accept DaemonHunter's "reinforcement", I would have to go with Tau reinforcement. Do the Tau have good HtH units to stand against Space Marines? (I know the Tau are even more fragile than the IG in HtH, but maybe they got auxiliaries?)

Against marines... O'Shovah and his followers might work... hmm... Kroot, Vespid... drones...

! An Ethereal might work! Aun'shi, from 3rd edition would've been perfect, but he's gone. Any Ethereal with honour blades could tie up a reasonably sized unit for a while.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-17, 02:37 PM
I don't mind being contradicted at all, Z-axis! It's all good. But the questions Kane asked were regarding the 4th ed. rules, so I tried to answer from there. I haven't examined 5th too closely yet, but I'll get on it soon.

chiasaur11
2008-08-17, 02:57 PM
Curse you! Now I want to convert a salamander model being ridden by CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, with Gunner Jurgen as the driver. I could turn it into a little diorama, with civilians running for cover and a trail of destruction in it's wake.

Gunner Jurgen's driving skills are.. well, let's not go there.

Which leads to the important question:
Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?

Bryn
2008-08-17, 03:29 PM
Which leads to the important question:
Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?

Model-wise... I Googled this earlier, to see if anyone else had made the Salamander diorama. Turned out they hadn't (or my Google-fu is lacking), but it does turn out that the Black Library made a special-edition miniature, details of which can be found on this Warseer thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31215&mode=linear).

So far, nobody's written rules for Cain. Maybe he'll turn up in the 5e Guard Codex; after all, Gaunt got a place in the current one. On the other hand, the HERO's personality might be hard to represent in rules. Supposedly there will be a 'Commissar Lord' in the 5e 'dex, which could cover the inspiration he gives to the troops as well as his skills with laspistol and chainsword.
[hr]
No worries, Gunslinger! :smallsmile: As far as I know, though, the things I mentioned are the same in 4e. The only thing changed for 5e is the inability to Consolidate into close combat in that particular regard.

And speaking of 5e, I like the new book; doesn't change too much, and the changes it does make are generally pretty good (great to be able to shoot at the Genestealers once they're in my lines!), and the background section is perhaps better than ever (there's a lovely map of an Ork Waaaagh!, notable only because of the fantastic Orky style in which it is drawn).

busterswd
2008-08-17, 05:17 PM
To say nothing of the fact that You'd be amazed the crap you can actually be pulled by using guardsmen in the 3rd and 4th ed codex.

Do tell... I'm just barely getting my feet wet and would love for some stuff to throw at my friend's heavy infantry focused space marine army. :-P

The Gunslinger
2008-08-17, 09:58 PM
Huh. I used to build my guard armies virtually tankless. And win. Alot.

Used to. Hmm. "Tanks" for that.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-17, 11:24 PM
Do tell... I'm just barely getting my feet wet and would love for some stuff to throw at my friend's heavy infantry focused space marine army. :-P

which artillery is the most cost/efficient? Whirlwinds, or Basilisks?

The Gunslinger
2008-08-17, 11:57 PM
If possible, take the basilisk.

Kane
2008-08-21, 02:21 PM
Wheee! Played a three-way objective game yesterday. And I think we're getting pretty close to actually playing by the rules!

Tau vs. Tyranids vs. SMs. We had an objective, and random game length.

Tyranids had it for the beginning, and due to that, SMs and I teamed up. (unspoken alliance) which I proceeded to break, once the SMs had wrested it from tyranid control.

Tau accuracy is seriously depressing, but the weapon strength is most satisfying, especially vs. Nids. (S5, T3. Wounds on 2+, I think.) Further, even SMs can't stand up to the withering hails of fire that my 12-unit pulse rifle squad can put down.

I proceeded to turn on the SMs, gun them down around the objective, and move in to capture it, before rolling 'game end' result on turn six.

Question: Can I shoot into a melee if none of the units are mine? (nids vs. SMs?)

The Gunslinger
2008-08-21, 03:15 PM
No firing into cc. Period. It would make sense, in this case, but the rules are clear.

Dervag
2008-08-21, 03:54 PM
They'd need a mechanic for resolving who gets shot, and that would be a pain.

Wraith
2008-08-21, 05:06 PM
Question: Can I shoot into a melee if none of the units are mine? (nids vs. SMs?)


No firing into cc. Period. It would make sense, in this case, but the rules are clear.

Yes actually, you can - page 273 of the 5th Edition Rulebook describes the "Broken Alliance" scenario, between 3 different players. Player 1, for example, *is* allowed to shoot into close combat so long as the only combatants involved are from the armies of Player 2 and Player 3.

You simply roll to hit as normal, and then randomise who the target is: 1-3 means you've hit a model belonging to Player 2, 4-6 is Player 3, while template weapons hit as normal.

Simple and effective :smallsmile:

LordVader
2008-08-21, 06:10 PM
Which leads to the important question:
Is there a Ciaphas Cain unit, and, if not, why not?

No, because the current codex is so damn old that he wasn't really around when it was released.

When we get the new one, I'd be astonished if he wasn't in, because 1) he provides a nice, regiment-specific hero and 2) all Guard series that long are either spawned off of a character or get their own. (See Gaunt, the Last Chancers.)

@^-However, this is a house rule only; you are still not allowed to shoot into combats with your own men, and even to shoot into enemy combats you would have to establish it as a rule before the game begins.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-21, 09:34 PM
Yes actually, you can - page 273 of the 5th Edition Rulebook describes the "Broken Alliance" scenario, between 3 different players. Player 1, for example, *is* allowed to shoot into close combat so long as the only combatants involved are from the armies of Player 2 and Player 3.

Argh, 5th edition! That does make sense, I guess.

Psychotic
2008-08-21, 09:53 PM
So I've been putting a watchful eye on the Codex: Chaos Space Marines and have been really wanting to play it out. My issue is that I don't like Daemons, or Possessed or basically anything mutated by Chaos. My solution to this is to use Space Marine models with some very subtle conversions that hint at Chaos taint (From a fluff standpoint, the Company has only recently been turned to Chaos and even they don't know it yet).

What I'm wondering is how effective would a Chaos Space Marine be using only the few types of units that have a direct Space Marine counterpart? As in Chaos Lord = Space Marine Commander, Chaos Termie = Termie, Raptor = Assault Marine, Havoc = Devastator, etc etc.

The army that I want to build is assault based (in order to contrast my current army of Eldar).

Wraith
2008-08-22, 07:44 AM
Your plan is perfectly viable Psychotic - All normal Space Marine units have a Chaos equivalent, with the exception of a few types of Tank, Scouts and the Land Speeder, all of which are completely easy to do without :smallsmile:

There is an alternative of course, and that is to simply play a normal Space Marine Army and paint it up as though it was Chaos. If anyone asks, tell them it's a custom Chapter of your own creation that has only recently fallen to Chaos. The rules needn't be any different to normal SM's, but you still get your evil pile of psychopaths without daemons! :smallbiggrin:

Psychotic
2008-08-22, 05:52 PM
Wraith - I've considered the alternative, but the (cliffnotes-style) backstory behind my Chaos Space Marine force is that they were a Black Templar crusade who had bitten off more than they could chew and it took a huge toll on their numbers. In the their last stand, the Templar's leader took it upon himself to claim a blade of supreme power in order to defeat the enemy. Little did he know that the weapon he wielded was a Daemon Weapon, which slowly began to whisper to him...

Basically, I wanted to do a different take on Chaos. Rather then create a generic competitive list and build the background around it, I did the fluff first. I wanted a gray shade of Chaos to contrast the grays of the Imperium, the Eldar and so on. The emphasis is that Chaos is not always in your face with a chainaxe and screaming daemons. Sometimes Chaos is an actual reasonable, righteous cause.

Lorn
2008-08-22, 05:59 PM
There was a thing in White Dwarf a fair while back that you could maybe use... the Relictors, and specifically, using Chaos-tainted weaponry with normal Marines.

It could help, from what I understand of what you're trying to do, as long as your opponent agrees. It IS a bit outdated, but not that far...

Try issue 295.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-08-22, 06:02 PM
This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.

Bryn
2008-08-22, 06:42 PM
This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.

Well, vanilla Space Marines have lots of plastic models, which are far cheaper than metal models; on the other hand, there are approximately 7 billion Space Marine players so you might want to avoid them. Space Marines also get tons of battleforce type sets with lots of models discounted.

Daemonhunters can get away with perhaps the fewest models, but those models will cost you an arm and a leg, since they're all metal.

Cadian-styled Imperial Guard will give you lots of models relatively cheaply, but you also need lots of models to play. They have a good amount of plastic, and though commanders and the like are metal, you can fairly easily convert plastic models to represent them instead (although I was helped by the Forge World upgrade parts, and converting commanders otherwise would be a pain).

The Tau Empire and the Tyranids both have a combination of metal and plastic sets, and the Tau would probably be cheaper because you need a lot of Tyranid models. On the other hand, you could save on your HQ choice for the Nids, thanks to the Broodlord.

Orks also need a lot of models, and they have quite a bit of metal spread about their ranks, but the standard Boyz are plastic. Also note that the new starter box set gives you a bunch of cheap Orks if you can find a Marine player to take the Marine bits.

Those are the armies that come to mind, but somebody will probably point out some cheap army that I've missed. Don't touch Daemons, Witch Hunters, or Dark Eldar, because they all ask for lots and lots of metal models.

Wraith
2008-08-23, 03:10 PM
This is gonna sound like a bizarre question, but it's almost entirely for Tyranid players, but what's a decent cheap (model wise) army that can be assembled? I'd like to start playing this but my money is...limited at best so I want to make what I get count.

I'm not sure how you mean this - do you mean you want a cheap Tyranid army, or just any army in particular?

In the case of the former, looks for second-hand armies.

I have $300 worth of Wraithguard and Wraithlords in my Eldar Army, for which I paid about $170 and then another $10 for a bottle of paint remover. Even if you want to buy unit-by-unit, it's much cheaper to do, though occasionally you can find a really good "2000 for $50" deal if you know where to look.

I recommend eBay as a starting point, and what you should look for are eBay Shops that sell plastic kits without boxes. These are usually at around $10 cheaper than buying new, or even from another shop that sells them boxed.

Not a particularly good way of supporting Games Workshop, but quite frankly I think they can look after themselves while I pass on my own wisdom to new players. :smallsmile:

In the case of the latter, however, an all-plastic Tyranid force is never going to be the cheapest of armies, due to sheer size needed and the monetary expense of the larger, points-eating models.
Probably the best thing to do is buy a couple of of the Boxed sets, which include several different types of 'Nid both big and small, and are generally a better deal than buying each unit separately. Just be sure to find out what is in each box and then write out an army list with those figures in it to be sure that nothing goes to waste, and it probably won;t be too hard or expensive to hit a decent sized AND effective army.

hamishspence
2008-08-23, 03:44 PM
Recently Slaaneshi or Khornate daemon armies got plastic models, so could go troop heavy. But yes, most of the rest are metal.

Bryn
2008-08-23, 04:07 PM
Recently Slaaneshi or Khornate daemon armies got plastic models, so could go troop heavy. But yes, most of the rest are metal.

Ah, my mistake. I should really have checked my facts with the online store before saying stuff, shouldn't I? :smallamused:

Da King
2008-08-24, 06:00 PM
Tactical question here; I'm new to 40k, I've played 3 games so far with my Imperial Guard Army, and every single game, my Russ'es are destroyed by my opponents within the first or second turn. The first game 2 were wiped out by A Tau Broadside that seized the initiative and destroyed Both of my tanks by the second turn. The second game the only one on the field was destroyed by a deepstriking SM Dreadnought, and the third game they were both destroyed by infiltrating stealth suits. The battle cannon(s) usually gets to be fired once (and most often, miss) before all my tanks are destroyed. What can I do to make sure my tanks stay alive to see more then 2 turns, possibly even till the end of the game?

tyckspoon
2008-08-24, 08:25 PM
What can I do to make sure my tanks stay alive to see more then 2 turns, possibly even till the end of the game?

Always, always, always plan to lose initiative. That means deploying your tanks for safety, not killing potential. Put them in or even completely behind cover. You want them benefiting from the hull-down rule (effectively a cover save for vehicles) if they're being shot at. Consider upgraded armor to help reduce the effects of weaker hits. Against a particularly shooty army, go ahead and stick them completely out of line-of-sight; they won't get to fire their battle cannon, but they can still move out and use the sponson and hull weapons. If you use the tanks as a particularly important part of your strategy, focus-fire on your opponent's main anti-tank units.. you have much less to fear if you can blast the Broadsides off the board before coming out of cover.

There's relatively little you can do to fend off units that have the ability to just show up in/around your deployment zone (although even when being destroyed, your tanks can be serving a valuable function in some game types. In an objective-based game, for example, that deepstriking Dreadnought is *not* making a mess of a troops squad you need to hold the objective points.) About the best I can suggest is to make sure you don't leave your tanks isolated. Deploy them in pairs, so they can cover at least one of each other's side arcs. Leave a squad or two with the tanks. Maybe a mortar team. If anything shows up and destroys one tank, you can shoot it up with the other tank or hurl your men into assault in order to (hopefully) tie it up for a couple turns.

LordVader
2008-08-24, 08:33 PM
Tactical question here; I'm new to 40k, I've played 3 games so far with my Imperial Guard Army, and every single game, my Russ'es are destroyed by my opponents within the first or second turn. The first game 2 were wiped out by A Tau Broadside that seized the initiative and destroyed Both of my tanks by the second turn. The second game the only one on the field was destroyed by a deepstriking SM Dreadnought, and the third game they were both destroyed by infiltrating stealth suits. The battle cannon(s) usually gets to be fired once (and most often, miss) before all my tanks are destroyed. What can I do to make sure my tanks stay alive to see more then 2 turns, possibly even till the end of the game?

I have a solution for your deepstriker problems. I run a drop-podding army full of meltas, and as such I rely on dropping behind tanks to kill them. However, what you can do to mitigate this somewhat and stop non-drop podders from DSing at all is to scatter a squad of Guardsmen out behind your Russ, as if they try and deep-strike anything behind it to get at the vulnerable rear armor, they will be kept out of melta range (hopefully) by your Guardsmen.

As far as Broadsides go, my advice would be to keep the tanks out of LoS first turn, and then maybe pop smoke and drive forwards the second to a (hull-down) firing position unless you have a very tempting target. Remember, there's a decent chance that the railgun will either glance and fail to kill your tank or bounce off, against the front armor of a Leman Russ I've seen railguns fail many a time, so if you need to take a gamble, you can go for it and your tank still has a good shot at survival.

Mr._Blinky
2008-08-24, 09:03 PM
BTW, does anyone have experience running an army that is entirely Infiltrate+Deepstrike? I'm running one now, and it's really good for getting your opponent exactly where you want them, but I was wondering if anyone had any good tips.

tyckspoon
2008-08-24, 09:23 PM
BTW, does anyone have experience running an army that is entirely Infiltrate+Deepstrike? I'm running one now, and it's really good for getting your opponent exactly where you want them, but I was wondering if anyone had any good tips.

Uh.. roll well for your deepstrike scatter? I'm assuming you already have the basic ideas (like dropping your anti-armor units behind or on the sides of the enemy tanks, putting your close-combat units in reach of their favored target, etc) so it's more a matter of whether or not the dice will let you do it the way you planned on. The best I can come up with is to suggest that you try to make sure each Deepstriking unit has at least two decent options, depending on how the dice fall.. eg, try to drop an assault unit so that it could get to two different targets if it landed directly where you want, and then if it scatters away from one of them it should still be able to get to the other.

LordVader
2008-08-24, 09:39 PM
I am beginning an all-Drop Pod army, and from what I have seen so far you absolutely need to stay concentrated. I typically drop squads in pairs, or lone with a dreadnought for support. Leaving squads out on a limb will let the fully-deployed enemy eat you up piece by piece. As far as assault goes, I think Infiltrate may be better as DSing assault squads will either get shot up or counter-assaulted and neither of those are good things.

Also, you want to make the most of your entry, as you get to choose where to initiate combat, not them. YOU have the initiative, which can be crucial, and if you do enough damage to them on the way in you can already get them in the mindset of the defeated.

In short: Don't spread out too far on entry, and on the turn your stuff comes in, alpha strike enemy targets with it.

Mr._Blinky
2008-08-24, 11:03 PM
Thanks for the tips. I currently have a Termie Librarian (and soon a squad with him), a 10 man Assault Squad, and a Dreadnought DSing, while I've got a Tac. Squad, 2 Combat Squads, a Dev. Squad, Vets, Sniper Scouts, and my Cmd Squad infiltrating. It has the handy advantage of forcing my opponent to deploy everything before I do.:smallbiggrin:

My main weakness right now is lack of real armor, which I don't want to get because it messes with the flavor and fluff of my army. This should be partly remedied by my getting two new Dreads when the new starter set comes out, but I still don't really have anything that can take a square hit from a lascannon and live.:smallfrown:

Psychotic
2008-08-24, 11:10 PM
My main weakness right now is lack of real armor, which I don't want to get because it messes with the flavor and fluff of my army. This should be partly remedied by my getting two new Dreads when the new starter set comes out, but I still don't really have anything that can take a square hit from a lascannon and live.:smallfrown:

I wouldn't worry too much about it. A very common tactic regarding armor is to go all or nothing. Going with lots and lots of tanks and APC's basically overloads your opponent's anti-armor weaponry, allowing your land raider or rhino's to deliver their shipment of mmm delicious. Going with no tanks whatsover means that you deny enemies valuable targets for the anti-armor weaponry, meaning that the 35 points that they spent on a lascannon is a point sink compared to a heavy bolter or an autocannon.

Mr._Blinky
2008-08-24, 11:19 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about it. A very common tactic regarding armor is to go all or nothing. Going with lots and lots of tanks and APC's basically overloads your opponent's anti-armor weaponry, allowing your land raider or rhino's to deliver their shipment of mmm delicious. Going with no tanks whatsover means that you deny enemies valuable targets for the anti-armor weaponry, meaning that the 35 points that they spent on a lascannon is a point sink compared to a heavy bolter or an autocannon.

Well, as you can see my army is extremely troop-centric. At the moment, it's best optimized at taking out vehicle heavy and ranged armies, so I need to get a bit better and taking on CqC armies. I'm getting a bunch more guys soon though, so that should be less of a problem.

My other problem is that for some reason when I first built my guys I was dumb enough to give them almost zero special weapons. I've got plenty of heavies, but my entire army has one flamer and no plasma guns, so that kills some of my flexibility right there. Though, again, with any luck this should be remedied soon.

I was wondering though, about how useful is a squad of scouts with snipers? I've got one with snipers and one armed for CqC, and I was wondering what situations and enemies they're actually good for, and under what circumstances their just a point sink?

Destro_Yersul
2008-08-24, 11:56 PM
I've found that sniper scouts are actually really good for taking out the high toughness critters. Wounding on 4 is pretty much best case scenario against those anyways, and hitting on 2 only helps. Even if they have decent armour saves they'll fail eventually. This does mean you have to take 10 for it to be worth it though.

Kane
2008-08-25, 12:12 AM
Asking for a friend, since I seem to be the 'knowledgeable' one in our group. (Remember, it's all relative.)

Anyway, He as of the other day, had the Tactical squad that came with BfMaccrage, a partially assembled tactical squad box, and another tac. squad and a force commander, both NIB.

He's waiting for the new marine dex to come out before he gets one, but he's planning on playing blood angels.

The problem: We stopped in GW the other day, and he was convinced by the GW personel to: buy a devastator squad, an assault squad and preorder 2 copies of the new starter set that's coming out.

Now, especially that last part, it seemed to me that they were just gouging him for money. They told him he had to buy it, since he's playing SMs and his second army, assuming he gets one, will be orks.

Part 2, what kind of advice should I pass on to him on expanding his army. I currently have slightly over 1000 points of Tau, our 3rd group member has around 600 pts of nids, and is about to get the 1500 pt "Tyranid Assault Brood" from GW. He also may someday be facing necrons regularly. (4th group memeber.)

What does he need? (We're all planning on working up to 2000-ish pts for our armies, and possibly starting a second after that.)

Oh, and he's also got his eye on the Baal predator that he's seen in GW. Is that worth while?

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-25, 12:15 AM
As an IG, what kind of heavy weaponry should I focus on when fighting SM? Missiles, Lascannons, Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Meltagun? What is worthier: 2x Leman Russ + 1 Basilisk, or 1x Leman Russ (assisted with infantry) + 2x Basilisk?

Edit: And I was looking for the point-cost for a Master Vox Unit for my Army HQ. Where is it written?

tyckspoon
2008-08-25, 12:31 AM
Those starter kits are usually pretty good deals for building the core of an army, but with three Tac squads and a Commander already he's missing a lot of the value he would have gotten by starting fresh with it. On the other hand, those Dreadnoughts and Termies will be pretty useful, and he'll have a nice solid base for a future Ork army. I'd say it was worth the price.

What he should add to his army depends on how he wants to play, really. As is, he has the base for a drop-podding army.. I would suggest he just go ahead and play some games with his current models and then just mix in some more of whatever he thinks he's missing. My personal suggestion would be for some more heavy firepower- a Predator or two, maybe a Whirlwind- but I don't know how that would fit with your friend's preferred tactics. Space Marines can be adapted into three or four styles that are almost completely different armies.

Wraith
2008-08-25, 06:16 AM
He's waiting for the new marine dex to come out before he gets one, but he's planning on playing blood angels.

No need to wait - go to this link and you can use the brand new Blood Angels Codex for free (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/bloodangels-codex/1/) (And legally, before anyone asks - it's been released into the Public by GW). You don't even need Codex: SMs to use it, just the main rulebook.


The problem: We stopped in GW the other day, and he was convinced by the GW personel to: buy a devastator squad, an assault squad and preorder 2 copies of the new starter set that's coming out.

Now, especially that last part, it seemed to me that they were just gouging him for money. They told him he had to buy it, since he's playing SMs and his second army, assuming he gets one, will be orks.

On the assumption that he really is going to play Blood Angels, the Devastators and the Assault Squad are a good choice, as Blood Angels can take the Assault Squad as a Troops choice and they are nicely complimented by the big guns as a Heavy slot.

As already mentioned, however, the 2 starter sets will be of extremely limited value. He won't need the Tactical Squads, certainly won't need 2 Commanders, and the Terminators are strictly optional. A better investment would be to buy another fairly large Assault Squad and bodyguard for his Commander, either Veterans, Terminators or Assault marines depending on what he feels like doing.


Part 2, what kind of advice should I pass on to him on expanding his army. I currently have slightly over 1000 points of Tau, our 3rd group member has around 600 pts of nids, and is about to get the 1500 pt "Tyranid Assault Brood" from GW. He also may someday be facing necrons regularly. (4th group memeber.)

What does he need? (We're all planning on working up to 2000-ish pts for our armies, and possibly starting a second after that.)

Blood Angels are primarily a Close Combat-orientated force, though like all Space Marines they are perfectly capable of long range too. Once he has his corre army down (Commander + Bodyguard, Assault Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator, Devastator, Tank) anything he likes the look of will probably work out fine, so long as he knows how to use it on the table.

Such is the beauty of Space Marines, and why at one point they made up more than 50% of ALL Games Workshop's sales.


Oh, and he's also got his eye on the Baal predator that he's seen in GW. Is that worth while?

Against 'Nids, it's absolutely brilliant - multiple shots can destroy a decent sized unit (Tyranids are notoriously weak when it comes to armour, generally speaking) and the Rending rule of Assault Cannons can take down even the Carnifex and Hive Tyrant with a little effort.

Against Necrons it's also quite good, as they are generally quite vulnerable to big guns that can knock down a lot of models for the purposes of their Phase Out rules, although Necrons can be annoying since ALL of the weapons can Rend too, making the tank a little more vulnerable.

Against Tau - and in an army with few other large targets, like a Blood Angels/Close Combat army - he might as well paint a large bulls-eye on the side and have done with it! :smallbiggrin:
It's a choice target for any large guns (of which Tau have many), and he'll need an extreme amount of luck and skill to keep it around for more than a turn or two. Having said that, the Assault Cannons are going to scare the crap out of Fire Warriors (AP4 cancels their save) and Crisis/Broadside Suits alike (s6 causes Instant Death on them, which is fantastic) so while it's around it'll likely cause all sorts of mayhem.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-25, 07:08 AM
Good point up-there. What should I buy first when I first build an Imperial Guard army? For the moment, I have 1 Leman Russ tank (given to me), 20 Cadian Troopers (4x Sarges, 4x Flamers, 4x Vox Casters, 3x Autocannons, 5x Regular Troopers), 20 Ratchatan Troopers (ye know, the Rambo-guys). I plan to use them as Conscripts. And I have another 5-pack of Cadian Troopers.

When I'll have finished building and painting it all, what should I buy next? I have ennough sarges for the moment, I think. Maybe Officers? More flamers/autocannons? Heavy Weapon teams? Slightly more Voxcasters?

Then, I'll have to actually have an army. I already said about the Heavy Weapons. Maybe Chimeras? Hellhounds, Basilisk? Another LR?

LordVader
2008-08-25, 07:16 AM
As an IG, what kind of heavy weaponry should I focus on when fighting SM? Missiles, Lascannons, Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Meltagun? What is worthier: 2x Leman Russ + 1 Basilisk, or 1x Leman Russ (assisted with infantry) + 2x Basilisk?

Edit: And I was looking for the point-cost for a Master Vox Unit for my Army HQ. Where is it written?
Master Vox, like all Officer upgrades, is in the Armory.

I'd advise lascannons/missiles personally, and load up on plasma/melta. However, you may want to consider taking an autocannon or two for popping Rhinos, as it makes up for Guard's average BS.Against Marines, I'd take 2x Russ and 1x Bassie, as the Russ is better able to operate in support of your troops and it instant-kills everything Marines have anyways.

Chimaeras are terrible, side AV 10 dooms them to a terrible destruction at the hands of even the basic infantry of most armies. Plus they're heinously overpriced. Hellhounds are worth their weight in gold against swarm, low-AS armies like Orks and Tyranids.

If you can tell us what your regular opponents play, we can better direct you in your purchases.

busterswd
2008-08-25, 07:18 AM
#1 priority is you need an actual HQ to play a game, which is usually the generic HQ squad. If you have a MUCH larger army, you can qualify for one of the specialty units for HQ. I highly recommend going through the IG codex in game works to figure out what you can add.

Mr._Blinky
2008-08-25, 11:26 AM
Those starter kits are usually pretty good deals for building the core of an army, but with three Tac squads and a Commander already he's missing a lot of the value he would have gotten by starting fresh with it. On the other hand, those Dreadnoughts and Termies will be pretty useful, and he'll have a nice solid base for a future Ork army. I'd say it was worth the price.

What he should add to his army depends on how he wants to play, really. As is, he has the base for a drop-podding army.. I would suggest he just go ahead and play some games with his current models and then just mix in some more of whatever he thinks he's missing. My personal suggestion would be for some more heavy firepower- a Predator or two, maybe a Whirlwind- but I don't know how that would fit with your friend's preferred tactics. Space Marines can be adapted into three or four styles that are almost completely different armies.
Well, my local GW's got a little "exchange program" going, where they pair an ork and SM player together. When the set comes out, each buys one, and the SM player gives the ork player all the ork units, and the ork player gives the SM player all the SMs. So I'd be getting 2 dreads, 2 commanders, 10 termies, and 20 tac. marines for 60 dollars. Since only thing that's been preventing me from getting termies is the price, I'd say this is a more than fair deal.:smallsmile:

LordVader
2008-08-25, 11:38 AM
I'm doing something like that.
Currently, I think I can expect something like:
1) 3 Dreadnoughts
2) 40 Tactical Marines
3) 10 Terminators.

Battle Company Apoc Formation, here I come! :smallbiggrin:

Lostintransit
2008-08-25, 11:46 AM
Well my tactics involve dropping a chapter of marines on it.......

But in smaller games i find dreads, tactical and devastators do the trick nicely!

Regards

Bryn
2008-08-25, 03:23 PM
Good point up-there. What should I buy first when I first build an Imperial Guard army? For the moment, I have 1 Leman Russ tank (given to me), 20 Cadian Troopers (4x Sarges, 4x Flamers, 4x Vox Casters, 3x Autocannons, 5x Regular Troopers), 20 Ratchatan Troopers (ye know, the Rambo-guys). I plan to use them as Conscripts. And I have another 5-pack of Cadian Troopers.

(Assuming you've already built all those Cadians as described): That's quite a mix of units you have there. Those 4 flamer troops will be handy in forming a command squad, but you're going to need a great many more models to accomodate the voxcasters and sergeants. Which brings me to...


When I'll have finished building and painting it all, what should I buy next? I have ennough sarges for the moment, I think. Maybe Officers? More flamers/autocannons? Heavy Weapon teams? Slightly more Voxcasters?
You'd probably be best off buying a box of 20 Cadians. Combined with the sets of 5 standard Cadians you already have, you'd have 3 squads ready to go. Three of the vox troopers could go into those, leaving you with three troops left over from the box. If you get your hands on an Officer and one more Cadian of any sort, they could be made into a Command Squad (once again, I would arm these guys with flamers)

That would leave you with...
two command squads (the flamer guys you have, another three flamer guys from the set of Cadians, one of the Voxcaster guys, and two Officers)
three infantry squads (three Sergeants, three Voxcaster guys, eight of the regular troops you have already, and 16 regular Cadians from the box set)
a conscript platoon (the Catachans)
Three Autocannons which can be put in their own unit or spread around the three squads of Cadians you have. If you put them in the infantry squads, that gives you an extra six spare cadians. If you do that, then the six cadians + four from the box set can make a fourth squad of infantry.



Then, I'll have to actually have an army. I already said about the Heavy Weapons. Maybe Chimeras? Hellhounds, Basilisk? Another LR?
Hellhounds are lovely, lovely things. They are godlike at dealing with any army without power armour, and reasonable at killing everything else. If you get one of (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/hhart.htm) the two (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/hhgra.htm) Forge World Hellhounds, then they look wonderful as well.

Apart from Hellhounds, it depends on what you want to do. If you want a mostly static Guard army, using your Autocannons in squads, then take tanks to support that, like the Basilisk. If you want to be more mobile... you could wait for GW to release the plastic Valkyrie along with the new Guard codex, or buy Imperial Armour Apocalypse and get Arvus Lighters. If you have more sense than money (shame on you :smalltongue:), Chimeras are still generally not such a great idea. I would look into the Centaur (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/grencent.htm) (see also the other Centaur (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/centaur.htm)) for your command squads, though, as that thing is fast, so it should get them somewhere before getting popped open by a lucky bolter round.

The great thing about the Guard is that, thanks to Forge World, they have more stuff than anyone. Just have a look and see if there's anything you like.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-25, 04:43 PM
I play (not chaos) 'nids. I have a warrior hevy army.
I take a broodlord and a reinute of genestealers, and the other hq is a warrior squad. 2 warrior squads and a lictor for elites.
Adding on 2 genestealer squads for melee, and 3 without number termegaunt squads, and my army is effective agianst who I play with.
Also, to other nid players, are gargoyle worth it? I don't have any, but they don't seem very good. And are biovores good? I have a carnefix and ravener, so I have more HS and FA spots open, so I'd like some advice on those 2 units.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-25, 11:43 PM
That would leave you with...
two command squads (the flamer guys you have, another three flamer guys from the set of Cadians, one of the Voxcaster guys, and two Officers)
three infantry squads (three Sergeants, three Voxcaster guys, eight of the regular troops you have already, and 16 regular Cadians from the box set)
a conscript platoon (the Catachans)
Three Autocannons which can be put in their own unit or spread around the three squads of Cadians you have. If you put them in the infantry squads, that gives you an extra six spare cadians. If you do that, then the six cadians + four from the box set can make a fourth squad of infantry.


.

Now, that was incredibly useful..

Oh, I sorry I mislead you. I was wrong about some of my troopers having autocannon, they have grenade launcher instead. Do you have changes in suggestions about what to do...?

Against high-T or high-Armor armies, should I switch my flamers to other weapons? Like.. oh.. Plasma or Meltaguns?

Calvin33
2008-08-26, 05:21 PM
Against high-T or high-Armor armies, should I switch my flamers to other weapons? Like.. oh.. Plasma or Meltaguns?

I do, with my Khorne army getting up close and personal :smallfurious: but I use plasma pistols, but that means there getting a tad expensive.

tyckspoon
2008-08-26, 05:24 PM
Against high-T or high-Armor armies, should I switch my flamers to other weapons? Like.. oh.. Plasma or Meltaguns?

Probably plasma. They have better range, better strength, and enough AP to punch power armor, all of which are important when you're looking at things like assault-heavy Space Marines marching down-table. Meltas are overkill with insufficient range for most situations; those are primarily tank-hunter weapons. The only thing keeping plasma guns from being incontrovertibly the best weapons in the game is the Gets Hot rule.

Bryn
2008-08-26, 05:52 PM
Now, that was incredibly useful..

Oh, I sorry I mislead you. I was wrong about some of my troopers having autocannon, they have grenade launcher instead. Do you have changes in suggestions about what to do...?
That changes things slightly. Depending if you want to take Grenade Launchers in your Infantry Squads, they can be used there to free up three models, but you won't be able to make a fourth infantry squad that way. Still, you can make a remnants squad with seven models.

I didn't mention this in my last post, but the way I described, your army would be organised as follows...
Command Squad (HQ)

Infantry Platoon (Troops)
- Command Squad
- Three Infantry Squads
- Remnants Squad

Conscript Platoon (Troops)

That would give you your requisite 1 HQ and 2 troops.


Against high-T or high-Armor armies, should I switch my flamers to other weapons? Like.. oh.. Plasma or Meltaguns?
When you're fighting Marines, plasma is fantastic, especially as you, being a Guard player, have plenty of bodies so that even if a few end up exploding you'll have a fair amount of plasma left over. Melta is generally not so worth it unless you have a way to get very close to the enemy, and it's better at killing tanks anyway. On Necrons, though, it does have the advantage of preventing them from coming back after you kill them.

Still, you get one melta and one plasma in every special weapons blister, so you can switch between them and see which ones you like.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-26, 06:17 PM
Hey everyone. I'm running a 40k campaign this year, and have 10 armies participaing: my Black Templars, as well as Blood Angels, Necrons, Tyranids, Guard, Traitor Guard, Ultramarines, more Tyranids, Eldar, and Witch Hunters. Any advice on how I can make this narrative campaign as compelling and fun as it ought to be?

Bryn
2008-08-26, 06:59 PM
You're lucky, in a way, in that you have a whole bunch of Imperial players. That makes justifying the presence of so many armies a lot more straightforward. I'd advise going for a system of planets as opposed to a single world to avoid stretching verisimilitude too much. I would also make the setting remote, so none of the armies can expect reinforcements.

Some ideas, assuming you haven't already planned a background, in which case this stuff should be discarded or even defenestrated (:smalltongue:)...

In a remote, but strategically vital, system of planets, a splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Kraken is closing in. As they approach, Genestealer-cult-led factions launch mass uprisings on the affected planets. Sensing the time to strike, Chaos cults also join in the carnage, even corrupting the Imperial Guard itself.

Since the worlds in question are vital to the functioning of the Imperium, a very large force is sent in to put down the uprisings and defend against the Tyranids. The Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and a single regiment of Guard, are the first to arrive, the rest of the relief force being delayed by Warp currents.

There is another presence in the system again, though. The Eldar have foreseen the imminent arrival of their oldest enemies. Disturbed by the fighting raging across the system, Necron tombs far beneath the ground on several worlds open up, sending their warriors purge the world of the filthy life forms that are infecting it.

That should cover all the armies involved.

As for running the campaign itself, the 40k rulebook has some advice. Having never run one of these things myself, though, I can't add anything. I would reccomend having a wide variety of characterful battlefields to represent the different planets, but that might be tricky depending on who's organising this.

In short, I don't really have much to offer :smalltongue:

Kane
2008-08-26, 07:27 PM
Hmm... My first two thoughts were "Don't keep it all 'one planet'." and "Keep it all one planet."

Let me explain:

1, Don't keep it like the Dawn of War, Dark Crusade campaign. Just having a bunch of races fighting for control of a planet doesn't seem all that good. Eldar, for instance, don't do conquering, as far as I know; they don't even have planets, just craft worlds. Spread it all ought, give them reasonable objective, make it impact the local systems and the course of life there for centuries to come!

2, Make it an involved, drawn out campaign for whatever they want. Post a large area of a planet, and post objectives. Use the concentrated area of the fighting to flesh out the planet, provide updates on how the inhabitants of said planet are taking it, etc. Objective-wise, use things like Orbital Control station, Ground forces Central Command, whatever, specific battlefields you have in mind, with specific advantages you can award to victors or penalties loser get.

Maybe have everyone start with 2500 points, and they only can keep what survives a battle... Unless they can call in for reinforcements...

But I really don't know how to run a tourney. I just thought I'd like to play in something like that.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-08-26, 10:24 PM
Actually, I probably should have specified this before, I wanted to focus on Tyranid and Necron forces. From what I hear the Necrons are mostly metal (and thus expensive) so I'd rather start off on Tyranids if their cheaper but frankly...I couldn't spot a bad unit if it wore a bright yellow parka and did Riverdance.

Talkkno
2008-08-26, 10:43 PM
Eldar do have some planets, mostly Exodaite worlds and certian "shrine" worlds of the eye of terror.

The Gunslinger
2008-08-26, 11:43 PM
Thanks everyone for suggestions. My main idea was to have the Black Templars and Yarrick (accompanied by a regiment of guard) pursuing a Warboss who they believe is Ghazgkull after the third Armageddon war. They arrive in a system to find it mostly overrun, with the Blood Angels and local PDF barely holding out. As the campaign would progress, the Tyranids would arrive, hitting the lead player hardest. The recommendation for the Genestealer cults was brilliant, as the citizens would rise up. Then, the local PDF turns renegade and they try to flee the system, but are halted by the arrival of a rather unhappy Inquisitor. The Eldar arrive to destroy a C'tan they believe to be dormant in the system, and get caught up, so they lose their initiative, and the Necrons get them. Then the Ultramarines show up to deal with the same Tyranids they couldn't deal with themselves initially.

Any thoughts?

YPU
2008-08-27, 05:13 PM
Heya guys, since it seems now campaigns are also being talked about here, not just tactics I hope you guys would look at a campaign draft of mine, reposting from the new mordheim topic; please read and suggest, that includes a change of narrative.
I will also probably soon start a 40K adoption of mordheim, using most races, with the World In Arms (http://www.worldinarms.info/) rules. But they don’t have the exploration chart so I am reworking that myself right now, and adding a few more items, I will also be making a campaign map so we can see who has swiped what part of the campaign. Perhaps I might even be writing rules for a space marine scout warband, they would seem perfect for it, different weapons in a squad, powerful but not overlie so, forward scouts.

here is my intro text for it:
Icarus Prime campaign

Icarus Prime was a highly urbanized human world. The system it lay in positioned at the edge of the emporium. Never officially claimed by the imperials, and it would stay that way for a while it would seem. That is, until recently…

a few weeks ago a previously unknown space hulk was detected by a imperial outpost. According to scans the hulk incorporated various ships of unknown origin, even some with still functional power systems. Besides that there were also indications that ancient imperial technology could be found in the hulk. According to the predicted flight path the hulk would enter imperial space and thus a space marine boarding party was prepared for the usual space hulk recovery mission.

However the hulk never came that far. It was hit by a tyranid bio-ship. The damage done split up the hulk into multiple pieces. These pieces, no longer hulk scale but still gargantuan in size then crashed into the only planed in a unnamed system. Bringing the planet into a unstable orbit that would end up in its sun. thus the planet was appropriately named named Icarus Prime.

Now all the armies in the vicinity race their available troops to the planet in order to recover as much of the alien technology as possible, lest it falls to the oblivions of Icaruses ever nearing sun.

In a universe where there is only war, these unknown systems might just give somebody a winning edge.

Calvin33
2008-08-27, 06:04 PM
@YPU

Sounds good

It's better than anything I can make

But what races will battle for the tech though?

YPU
2008-08-27, 06:14 PM
@YPU

Sounds good

It's better than anything I can make

But what races will battle for the tech though?

Thanks, the races that are open to play are those that the site I linked has rules for, those are:
Adeptus Mechanicus; for the imp tech.
Chaos Renegades; there because there is something the imps want.
Dark Eldar; generally raiding this chaos, picking up what they can.
Eldar; its quite possible the alien tech is eldar or even old one’s.
Genestealer Cult; were already on the planet, the vanguard of the fleet that hit the hulk.
Harlequin Troupe; does anybody know why these guys do what they do?
Imperial Guard; the imperial wants the tech.
Inquisition; so much races and things, logical the inq is there.
Kroot Mercenaries; hired by some rogue traders or somebody.
Orks; probably were present on the rock, or just want in on the fight.
Sisters of Battle; here to clean this mess.
Tau; research, naturally.

there are no rules for nids, who might have been on the hulk afther they hit it. and no necrons, who might have been the mistery aliens.
there is a space marine that functions like a mercenary in mordheim, as they would be to powerfull for a whole squad.

Zenos
2008-08-28, 10:01 AM
I am having my birthday in a short time, so I am wishing some Warhammer 40k stuff, I am currently wishing for a pair of sentinels (because they are lovely for running in with heavy flamers) and 1-2 leman russ tanks (because IG can't get enough tanks). Now, I already have over 60 infantry, and that is more than enough to fight my brother's Tau force, but is there any other stuff which might be good for an IG player to have against a Tau force (and why)?

Bryn
2008-08-28, 01:00 PM
Once again, I reccomend Hellhounds. Tau Fire Warriors have a 4+ save, which is completely ignored along with any cover they may have; as a result, they die very quickly when the Inferno Cannons turn on them. Also, the Forge World Hellhound models are great :smalltongue:

That's the main thing that comes to mind. I also reccomend getting lots of plasma guns if you haven't already. Apart from that, just keep expanding the infantry. The basilisk can avoid the Broadsides and Hammerheads from behind cover, which is an advantage. The Centaur is handy for getting flamer-equipped command squads close to Tau lines, although the flamer isn't perfect at burning Tau infantry.

Zenos
2008-08-28, 01:13 PM
Once again, I reccomend Hellhounds. Tau Fire Warriors have a 4+ save, which is completely ignored along with any cover they may have; as a result, they die very quickly when the Inferno Cannons turn on them. Also, the Forge World Hellhound models are great :smalltongue:

That's the main thing that comes to mind. I also reccomend getting lots of plasma guns if you haven't already. Apart from that, just keep expanding the infantry.

I will probably expand my infantry, but right now I have this desire for some cool stuff, like mortar squads, would buying a mortar squad be okay?

EDIT: And I fully understand the Hellhound sentiment, I've tested it's abilities using my Empire Steam Tank as a proxy, and it has done great. Also the reason I want more Sentinels with flamers.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-08-29, 03:17 AM
EDIT: And I fully understand the Hellhound sentiment, I've tested it's abilities using my Empire Steam Tank as a proxy, and it has done great. Also the reason I want more Sentinels with flamers.

Ahh.. nothing beats some hot Imperial love, right? :smallbiggrin:

evisiron
2008-08-29, 05:29 PM
I am an ex-Iron Warriors player (Northern Ireland Regional champion before it became merged with EU! My title foreveeeeer!).
That list evolved into:
2x 5 man squads w/ heavy weapons
Vindicator tank w/ upgrades
Basalisk
2 Dreadnoughts
Infiltrating Daemon Lord w/ speed and power weapon designed specifically to kill those damn Tau Suits.

Really hard to beat without loads of anti tank gear and had lots of firepower.

Now though, I am starting a 'Just for Fun' Ork army. Tactics involve a big mass of Boyz running full pelt across the board! WAAAGH! :smallbiggrin:

theonethatpokes
2008-08-30, 11:20 AM
My friend is playing a chaos demons army and is massing on the bloodletters, How do i beat him if i am chaos space marines? right not i have:
1 chaos terminator lord with lightning claws,
6 terminators, 1 heavy flamer, 2 combi melta, and 1 auto cannon, rest are just bolter and power weap.
20 soldiers with bolters, 10 with chain sword and pistol, flag bearer of khorn, power sword, 2 plasma pistols, 1 plasma gun, 1 heavy bolter, 1 flamer and 1 melta.
should i also get a chaos dreadnought's of are those inconsistent?

tyckspoon
2008-08-30, 04:54 PM
My friend is playing a chaos demons army and is massing on the bloodletters, How do i beat him if i am chaos space marines?

Shoot them. Shoot them a lot. A heavy Khornate army means he is most likely sacrificing ranged power. It also means that he is likely to be at least as good as your units in assault and probably a lot better- you can expect to lose at least a squad when the demons drop onto the board. If you have any Imperial Guard players around, try asking them how they deal with assault-based armies.

theonethatpokes
2008-08-30, 06:50 PM
sweet thanks man :smallbiggrin:

Lorn
2008-08-30, 07:23 PM
As an (ex)-Guard player, I can offer some advice, I think.

I've not fought Chaos Daemons ever, or really played at all in a long time, but I can probably offer some advice..

You play Chaos. He plays Daemons. Do you have access to Daemons in your army, and thus the profile? In other words, do you know exactly what Bloodletters are capable of? Use this to plan your attack, if they have power weapons or somesuch send masses of troops with poor armour in or if they don't send heavily armoured things in, stuff like that.

I know they have high WS and S, possibly I as well. I don't know if they allow armour saves - I would NOT be expected if they ignore them. Thus, avoid combat like the plague. Avoid taking heavily armoured troops like Terminators, waste of points. All they'll get is a 5+ inv. save, and will be striking last in combat.

However, Bloodletters have, from what I remember, not a very good armour save - 5+ inv. I think. Shoot them until they drop dead. Don't focus on one squad - spread your fire a bit, you'll kill the same amount of Bloodletters either way. Then, if they DO get into assault, there's less attacks in one place with any luck; as opposed to three full squads attacking in three places, it could be better to have six half squads attacking in six places, depending on your army composition and layout. Harder to kill ten close combat monsters in assault than it is to kill five, if you need to you can add a few more of your own forces in.

Choose targets well. Don't shoot an entire squad at one remaining enemy if there's another target in sight, because in assault you will kill that one remaining enemy.

Always, ALWAYS remember. It's better to charge than be charged if there's no alternative. Don't run forwards, but don't be massively hesitant to charge if you know there's going to be a combat - say, you're at the edge of the board and there's 12" between you and them.

Story about that:
I was playing Guard against Inquisition.

He had a squad of normal Grey Knights (GK) and a squad of GK Terminators led by a Grandmaster. Backed up by a squad of SoB and some other things.

I had a horde of troops. And a Basilisk.

My tactics were simple: Conscripts charge Grey Knights, hold them up at least so I could do some damage with everything else next turn. All 40 Conscripts were essentially a glorified, screwdriver and springknife wielding speedbump of human flesh.

When I charged them in, the rest of the army was behind them. Well, sort of. Mostly not charging in, but situated somewhere behind, a couple extra squads charged in - Hardened Veterans among them, they look just like normal troops :p More importantly, the Heroic Senior Officer with the Commissar in his squad was behind. IE, Ld 10 to EVERYTHING within about 18" or with a voxcaster.

This included the Conscripts, who are normally at Ld 4 or something.

My opponents face was priceless when I casually informed him that unless his Terminators and Grey Knights did some serious damage, I was going to have about 80 attacks from one of the squads that charged him. That one squad would also be practically unbreakable, because there was NO way he would be able to take them out in a single round of combat, and the rest of my army was likely to join in the fun if need be. Who, by the way, were also practically unbreakable.

Moral of the story:
If he'd have charged, he'd have destroyed the conscripts and lost maybe two models. Read on to find out what really happened ;) Instead, I charged, and... yeah. Bad things happened.

Anyway, when he'd finished rolling maybe seven conscripts were dead. Measuring, I had... well, let's say a vast amount of attacks.

Four turns later, he was down to his Grandmaster and Justicar. I had 20 conscripts or so left in combat. Throughout the game, this melee had been shielding the officers - can't shoot through assault, and the SoB had a single heavy bolter among them, the Basilisk having been raining fire down on them. Sadly, by this point there was a way for them to shoot the officers squad, and that Assault phase the heroic teens broke, and all 15 or so left ran and were promptly cut down by the Justicar. That Justicar and Grandmaster went on to destroy the Basilisk, while the last remaining SoB gunned down the meltagun wielding troops who were meant to destroy the Justicar/Grandmaster.

I lost, granted, but it was close - and I would have lost earlier if I hadn't charged, because the Conscripts would have broken MUCH faster and done less damage. Seriously, they made up for about twice, almost three times their points value. In assault. And they're worse than normal Guardsmen, having an average of 2 for most stats.

Yay for teenagers wielding springknives and screwdrivers!

Essentially, don't be scared to charge if things look grim. Keep artillery and such pounding if you can - one good tactic, seeing as your enemies do not, like mine did, have insanely good saves, would be to sacrifice maybe one or two cheap squads (can you get really cheap squads? Swarms maybe? Not sure about Chaos...) to die heroically while the rest of your army moves just out of assault range. Bloodletters finish fighting, and look up - into the barrels of several bolters, opening fire.

Pity you don't have any pie plates, or things could really get fun ;) Ever destroyed an extremely expensive squad in one turn with one model? Great fun.

Selrahc
2008-08-30, 07:29 PM
My friend is playing a chaos demons army and is massing on the bloodletters, How do i beat him if i am chaos space marines? right not i have:
1 chaos terminator lord with lightning claws,
6 terminators, 1 heavy flamer, 2 combi melta, and 1 auto cannon, rest are just bolter and power weap.
20 soldiers with bolters, 10 with chain sword and pistol, flag bearer of khorn, power sword, 2 plasma pistols, 1 plasma gun, 1 heavy bolter, 1 flamer and 1 melta.
should i also get a chaos dreadnought's of are those inconsistent?

A heavy bloodletters force is the least survivable army you can make, pretty much. You have to drop in right next to your foe, and he gets a round of shooting at you first. Toughness 4 and a 5+ save means you can't weather much firepower. High points cost, and onl half your army coming in means you don't have many models to take attacks. If they get into combat, they'll own. Very much a glass cannon.

What should you do? Shoot him. Take as few armour piercing weapons as possible because they aren't worth it against demons. The Terminators are a point sink, since they won't get to use their fabulous save, and the demons will not be bothered by their power weapons.

Dreadnought would be worth it against demons, certainly. A khorne heavy army will have problems against tanks. Just keep it away from the monsters.



Pity you don't have any pie plates, or things could really get fun ;) Ever destroyed an extremely expensive squad in one turn with one model? Great fun.

Not really massively useful. The demons all get saves, and aren't all that expensive. Plus, demons squads tend to be fairly small. Killing 2 or 3 models isn't really all that great.



Don't focus on one squad - spread your fire a bit, you'll kill the same amount of Bloodletters either way.

I'd actually reccomend the exact opposite. There are reinforcements coming in, and if you let your entire army get tied up in Close Combat, then those new units that deep strike in will remain unshot, and then smash you.

At least make sure to keep your especially shooty squads go unattacked, but the more guns you have aiming at the people who deep strike in the better, even if it means letting a few squads be wiped out.

Remember, Demons are two stage attackers. The first wave is generally a screen for the second force. The second force is the killing blow. Be prepared for it.

Kane
2008-08-30, 09:27 PM
Er, a bit of a tangent against what everyone else is talking about, but,

6 troop choices, 10 pts. a firewarrior, (no upgrades), squads of 12.

72 FWs, maxed troop choices, 720 points.

With one shot at max range, and assuming they all shoot at an SM, half hit (36) 2/3rds wound (24) and 2/3rds of the SMs make thier armor save. (16)

So, (in one turn) 72 FWs can kill 8 marines... This seems massively underwhelming, especially considering that everyone tells me Tau are 'shooty'.

To sum it up:(both shooting once)
9 FWs kill an SM a turn. (Will save 2/3 of the time, so 3 wounds. Will wound 2/3s of the time, so 4.5 hits, and hits 1/2 the time, 9 original shots.)
9 SMs kill an SM a turn. (will save 2/3s of the time, so 3 wounds. Will wound half the time, so 6 hits. Will hit 2/3s of the time, so 9 original shots.)

tyckspoon
2008-08-30, 09:46 PM
So, (in one turn) 72 FWs can kill 8 marines... This seems massively underwhelming, especially considering that everyone tells me Tau are 'shooty'.


Marines are just really bloody hard to kill. Run the test on some of the other armies in the game- say, the ones that don't have power armor- and you'll probably come up with better numbers. Don't underestimate the extended range of a pulse rifle, either; the 30" max lets the Tau set up farther back and can give them an extra turn of shooting before the enemy makes contact or before they are in range with their own rapid-fire weapons.

Durp
2008-08-31, 12:03 AM
I'm a complete newbie. i have a teeny tiny army. i have 1 Eldar guardian squad, and 1 dire avenger squad, and 1 Autarch. i'm going up against different things. i'll be up against 2 tau fire warriors squads and a... crap i forgot the battlesuits name. ill be up against 2 necron warrior squads and a... sonova...
ill also be up against some dark eldar, all i know about them is they have a dark eldar archon. we dont use many points.

Selrahc
2008-08-31, 10:29 AM
Er, a bit of a tangent against what everyone else is talking about, but,

6 troop choices, 10 pts. a firewarrior, (no upgrades), squads of 12.

72 FWs, maxed troop choices, 720 points.

With one shot at max range, and assuming they all shoot at an SM, half hit (36) 2/3rds wound (24) and 2/3rds of the SMs make thier armor save. (16)

So, (in one turn) 72 FWs can kill 8 marines... This seems massively underwhelming, especially considering that everyone tells me Tau are 'shooty'.

To sum it up:(both shooting once)
9 FWs kill an SM a turn. (Will save 2/3 of the time, so 3 wounds. Will wound 2/3s of the time, so 4.5 hits, and hits 1/2 the time, 9 original shots.)
9 SMs kill an SM a turn. (will save 2/3s of the time, so 3 wounds. Will wound half the time, so 6 hits. Will hit 2/3s of the time, so 9 original shots.)

Kill 8 a turn for 6 turns, and you've killed about 750pts worth of models. You've bought 720pts of models to the table.

Thats not pure, since you'd be shot at and assaulted, but the fact that you get double shots if people are in rapid fire range, the fact that you could be firing at more expensived targets and such mean you're likely to grab your points back.

I mean the average army of space marines contains a few fast attack units. Bikes and Jump Pack troops. If you kill 16 of those in a turn with your 72 fire warriors(double shots from close range), then you've half recouped the cost for your fire warriors at least. In a single turn.

If you wipe out a space Marine squad with a heavy weapon and a sergeant you've killed about 180 points of models.

If you smash a squad of sniper scouts then thats a 180 points or so, with the added benefit that you'll do more wounds isnce they have less of a save.

Then you've got the benefit of synergy. Blast away the unit of bodyguards for a character then let the broadsides pick him off in a shot. Kill off those fire dragons next to the tank.


Fire Warriors aren't the stuff ratcheting in the big kills, that'll be the Crisis suits or the Hammerhead, but they're a constant source of damage, thats pretty dangerous to most units. Very decent output of firepower for a basic troop choice.

Psychotic
2008-08-31, 10:31 AM
So what exactly would you like to know?

Tren
2008-08-31, 11:37 AM
On the Chaos Demon army, I'd definitely echo the volume shooting tactic. I played my first demon opponent last night in a 4v4 1250 point battle, and due to some bad tactics on the part of the demon player he got handily rolled. He kept deepstriking his units right in front of my guardians and dire avengers, with some bolters from my SM allies, and we took out his skulltaker, squad of daemonettes, and keeper of secrets pretty easily. The only unit that actually got to assault was the keeper of secrets and it only got one 5-man squad of marines before dying to shooting next round.

Justyn
2008-09-01, 08:28 PM
I have question on how I should expand my Space Marine army.

First, right now my Marines consist of the following:



One captain: Powersword and Stormbolter (no other wargear, but I am strongly considering putting on an Iron Halo and Terminator Honours, if they are worth the points, unless the halo is manditory, in which case the halo is there no matter what.)
One Chaplain, Crozius and bolt pistol (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020020&prodId=prod1050247&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k)
Three sergeants, one with bolter alone, and two with bolters and powerfists (one is the limited edition metal one, and the other is assembled with parts taken from my captain's sprues.)


For rank and file troops, I currently have a total of 32 Marines assembled thusly:

two with missle launchers
two with plasma guns
two with flamers
two with meltaguns
the rest are just standard with bolters (note that I still have yet to assemble one of each of the special weapons, so I can still change some of them if need be)


Fifteen of the marines are the snap together ones (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020019&prodId=prod1160152&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k), so I really can't do much with them.

I plan to have the marines seperated into three tactical squads, with each one getting some of the weapons, and two of them getting lead by the chaplain and the captain.

Anyway, I am getting some new miniatures, and if you read my army list, you can tell that my army is pretty shooty; I want to add some assault capability (mostly to deal with really shooty stuff, like the Tau) and I can't dicide on exactly what I will be getting, but I have narrowed down the choices to the following:


Two sets of Assault Marines, optional chaplain, for a 10-11 man squad.

Two sets of normal terminators, terminator armoured chaplain optional, for 10-11 man squad.

Two sets of close combat terminators with lightning claws, terminator chaplain probably optional, for a 10-11 mad squad.


For either set of terminators, I can buy the new starter set, and get five of them there, plus lots of other units. So, any advice on what I should get here?

The Gunslinger
2008-09-02, 10:59 AM
Terminator honours are worthwhile, trust me. As to how to expand, it's really up to you. You could get some supporting armour and dev squads if you like shooting, or maybe rhinos and assault squads if you like kicking the crap out of people in cc. Balanced warfare is usually reccommended.

† Dran †
2008-09-03, 06:55 AM
really depends on what type of SM you actually use. Black Templar chapter id suggest 1 assault termy squad, higher concentration of lightning claws over thunder hammer and shield but i would have atleast 2 thunder hammers... tank hunting assault termy fun!, with a termy Chaplin, Deep strike these boys into a flank and watch the sweat form on your opponents head. and for the second unit id suggest getting a assault squad, make it big, and give them a sarg leader. Use these fellers to flank as well, wouldn't suggest drop poding or deep striking them tho.

For a dark angels chapter id suggest one squad of HWep guys with a plasma cannon. Love them so much.. (not sure if their still around in the new rules tho) if not 2 lascannons a missile launcher and a heavy bolter. Gives you the option to shoot at vehicles (hbolters can occasionally help polish a tank/walker off) or aiming at a nice mass of infantry (my boom and zaap method) and for the second unit, a dready! Love em so much fun to have around. As for gear its your personal choice, I have one with 2 fists and bolter attachments for crushing tanks and other walkers and another with a lascannon and fist with flamer attachment for stand and deliver tactics.

Really tho it all comes down to personal choice bro. Good luck!

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 06:49 PM
Alright, I need some tactical help. My local gameshop is having an 'Ard Boyz tournament next week, and the shop owner decided that he's gonna run it as a doubles game. I decided that I'm gonna play Space Marines, and my brother (my partner for the tournament) said he'd play anything. We aren't for sure, but we believe that there will be Orks, Eldar, Tyranid, and Imperial Guard fielded at one point or another by the other players. So, this brings us to the problem. To maximize our chances of winning, what should my brother pick to field?

tyckspoon
2008-09-03, 06:59 PM
Imperial Guard is probably the standard, fluff-wise, and it works pretty well on the table too. It allows a classic hammer-and-anvil tactic, with Marines providing a highly-skilled strike group while the Guard supplies the necessary bodies to stand off other horde armies or swamp objectives with troops. Also, the other armies you've mentioned are generally pretty fragile and/or densely-packed... Hellhounds work wonderfully there.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-09-03, 11:53 PM
Imperial Guard is probably the standard, fluff-wise, and it works pretty well on the table too. It allows a classic hammer-and-anvil tactic, with Marines providing a highly-skilled strike group while the Guard supplies the necessary bodies to stand off other horde armies or swamp objectives with troops. Also, the other armies you've mentioned are generally pretty fragile and/or densely-packed... Hellhounds work wonderfully there.

Hellhound, or command retinue with a few flamers. Show them what's the Imperial Hot Love!

Bryn
2008-09-04, 12:18 PM
Third-ing Imperial Guard. That's because I love the Imperial Guard, but whatever.

You're lucky: all those armies have a mostly 4+ save or worse! That means Hellhounds will roast them, cover or no cover. (If anyone has got the impression from my posts that I am obsessed with Hellhounds... well, you're right. I probably am :smallbiggrin:)

As for squad special weapons, you have a choice. Against the 4+ save troops, especially Tau, plasma is useful, but the AP2 is kind of wasted against Guard and Orks. Grenade launchers are handy: they can be used when you move, and they can switch between frag (for big groups of Orks) and krak (for tougher stuff with a 4+ save).

In terms of what heavy weapons to take, heavy bolters are very handy, lots of shots at S5AP4 easily hurting all the infantry. If you're expecting lots of vehicles (especially from the Guard), though, take at least a few lascannons to deal with them.

[hr]

Who's coming to Games Day this year? Might be fun to meet some ITPers while I'm over there, maybe even have a game with one of you :smallwink:

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 03:54 PM
Imperial Guard is probably the standard, fluff-wise, and it works pretty well on the table too. It allows a classic hammer-and-anvil tactic, with Marines providing a highly-skilled strike group while the Guard supplies the necessary bodies to stand off other horde armies or swamp objectives with troops. Also, the other armies you've mentioned are generally pretty fragile and/or densely-packed... Hellhounds work wonderfully there.

Well, there's problems with that. The IG player will undoubtibly have loads of tanks (if I remember right hes got six Leman Russes and a misc other vehicles).

The Tyranid player loves Genestealers, and will definately use a Broodlord. And the Ork guy? Well, I have no earthly idea what he would play, but yeah your ideas should work there.

But yeah, IG does seem like it would work out well. I'll tell my brother, and we'll see what we can cook up. Oh, I'll probably take a Scout Squad. Would Sniper Rifles be worth it (cause of the pinning)? Or should I just go heavy bolters/missile launchers?

YPU
2008-09-04, 04:23 PM
So I’m done with painting my tau, and don’t feel like painting more wood elves (as i fore myself to paint each Pease of clothing in different colour, like they should be)
So now I’m planning on collecting a space marine force, no idea on the size I will go to before I switch back to getting my other armies on track.
I started with the command squad to test if I liked painting marines and because they are an interesting unit. So now I have a full command squad leader type with power fist, bolter flamer and combat shield. Other then that I have a five man squad thingy, just a unit of five marines. So what would you guys suggest I get next? I know the new book is coming out next so I know you guys cant give a definite. But I would like to have a nice list of boxes and blisters I could to build a nice balanced list, somewhat to the hard hitting frontal assault type, I tend to be lest then a tactical mastermind. It would be great if it was a list that could be played decently at any place down it.

tyckspoon
2008-09-04, 04:50 PM
Well, there's problems with that. The IG player will undoubtibly have loads of tanks (if I remember right hes got six Leman Russes and a misc other vehicles).

But yeah, IG does seem like it would work out well. I'll tell my brother, and we'll see what we can cook up. Oh, I'll probably take a Scout Squad. Would Sniper Rifles be worth it (cause of the pinning)? Or should I just go heavy bolters/missile launchers?

So you'll probably be wanting a fair amount of anti-armor stuff in your list, either as other tanks in your partner's list or in your own list.. maybe go tankish yourself, if your brother agrees and you have the models? Russes with battle cannons work pretty well for blowing chunks out of big units too. You might also consider picking a drop-pod army or one with a heavy infiltrating element for yourself, if those rules are in use. Tank-heavy armies do not like having powerfists and melta bombs suddenly show up on their flanks or even behind them. The other armies are likely to want to move forward to engage, as Tyranids and Orks are not notably shooty, and Eldar.. well, they *can* be built shooty, but a lot of their common weaponry is pretty short-ranged and the list may be arranged for assault instead.

For those instances, you would have a couple of turns where the enemy either moved forward or stood off and exchanged fire with your (hopefully) better-gunned IG partner. Then your Marines would drop and likely either have some isolated bits of the opponent's army to rip apart (like fire-base units that were left behind while the assault part moved up) or have a somewhat beat-up enemy army to engage with your own healthy units.

Alternately, if your brother wants to bring a vehicle-heavy IG list of his own, I would suggest you go Troop heavy and station your marines to help guard the tanks from things like having a bunch of rending-claw equipped Genestealers crawl all over them. Bring a couple of assault-kitted squads (like.. well, Assault Squads. :smallsmile:) to do counter-charges and interceptions.. hide 'em behind the tanks and jump-pack over to engage the first major threat that makes it in reach.

I wouldn't take sniper rifles just for the pinning, especially if they're the only pinning weapon on the board; there's likely to be too many units on the table for it to make very much difference. They could be useful for taking out any unusually high Toughness enemies, however, like Tyranid gribblies or an Eldar Wraithlord.

Ghal Marak
2008-09-05, 02:01 PM
Alternately, if your brother wants to bring a vehicle-heavy IG list of his own, I would suggest you go Troop heavy and station your marines to help guard the tanks from things like having a bunch of rending-claw equipped Genestealers crawl all over them. Bring a couple of assault-kitted squads (like.. well, Assault Squads. :smallsmile:) to do counter-charges and interceptions.. hide 'em behind the tanks and jump-pack over to engage the first major threat that makes it in reach.

This may be our best bet. Thanks for the help.

Oh, also, the Eldar player is in love with this one Exarch. I can't remember his name, but it's the one with the sickle looking gun. A sniper of some kind. Whenever I played him in the past I usualy get mauled in the face from across the board. :smallsigh:

13_CBS
2008-09-05, 02:14 PM
This may be our best bet. Thanks for the help.

Oh, also, the Eldar player is in love with this one Exarch. I can't remember his name, but it's the one with the sickle looking gun. A sniper of some kind. Whenever I played him in the past I usualy get mauled in the face from across the board. :smallsigh:

Could that be a Dark Reaper Exarch? I heard they're missile troops designed to combat heavy armored infantry (i.e. SMurfs).

Psychotic
2008-09-05, 03:10 PM
Could it be...MAUGEN RA?!?!?! *Dun-dun-duuuuunnn!!!!*

Maugen Ra is one of those dudes who can lay out a bunch of shots at S6 that Rend and Pin. He can also choose to ignore cover saves. Just stay out of his lanes of fire, similarly to how you'd avoid Dark Reaper/Devastator Squads.

Tren
2008-09-05, 06:52 PM
Probably Maugan Ra. Ra is the Dark Reaper Phoenix Lord, he basically walks around with a tank weapon in hand. The trick is, his range is shorter than the reapers themselves, he's only 36'' (maybe only 24'' even), but he puts out a lot of shots that are pinning. All you have to do is just not get inside his range, and use terrain to block line of sight.

Don't get into CC with him though, he is a beast. Your best bet is to stay out of his limited range and pelt him with heavy stuff.

Penguinizer
2008-09-06, 08:10 AM
Hmm. Well, my army in todays Mega Battle wasn't that good. I'll probably get another Battleforce sometime, so my army total becomes: 24 hormogaunts, 24 gaunts, 2 broodlords with 11 genestealers each, 6 warriors, 2 zoanthropes, 2 carnifexes, 7-8 ripper swarms, a lictor, and a ravener.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-09-06, 12:58 PM
Hello everybody here.

I'd like to make an army, but I'm not exactly sure what units to get,or even which faction to play.
I was considering IG, Black Templars or Eldar. I can get the Codex for both Eldar and BT without having to buy it, if it overly matters.
I was kinda' leaning towards IG or Eldar.

The army I had in mind was one a relatively fast, hit-and-run thing, preferably with jet packs, bikes, skimmers, that sort of stuff.

I don't know too much about how the game is played, but I've got the 4th ed rule book.

Bryn
2008-09-06, 02:41 PM
Both IG and Eldar can do the fast-moving, hit-and-run thing, but with IG you have to spend quite a bit of money on Forge World models and Imperial Armour books to get it to work. With just the codex, Eldar would work far better than IG for the sort of tactics you describe; the next edition of the IG codex, though, may feature the Valkyrie in it, which would even things out a bit.

Though, as of 5th Edition, everyone can run, Eldar have the fleet of foot ability, which lets them charge afterwards; this is very useful for close combat troops. More importantly for speed and mobility, Eldar have several different varieties of skimmer that can transport them rapidly around the table, and, when they move, are very hard to kill indeed. Eldar have some very powerful units, that hit hard, and some very fast-moving units that are also extremely difficult to kill while they fly about the table.

In terms of the things you mentioned (jetpacks, bikes and skimmers), Eldar would be the definite best choice. They have jetbikes, loads of skimmers, and I'm pretty sure that there is jump infantry somewhere in the army too.

I'm not an Eldar player, but I have access to the codex from my brother. Even so, I can't really advise you on units and such because I've never tried assembling an Eldar army list.

If you'd rather play IG (a very wise choice indeed, lest you be named heretic and righteously burned :smallamused:), it is possible to do the things you described. When equipped with transport flyers/skimmers, such as the Arvus Lighter (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm) and Valkyrie Dropship (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/valkyrie.htm), IG can be extremely mobile. They can also use fast vehicles like the Centaur (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/centaur.htm) (alternatively the grenadier one (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/grencent.htm)) to travel at high speeds around the table.

With the permission of your opponent, you could convert some bikes and use them as Rough Riders, only bikes instead of horses (and there's a modelling guide for that here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/convershunklinic/40k-cadianroughriders/)). The Salamander is also a fast-moving IG vehicle.

In short, between the Arvus, Valkyrie, Rough Riders, Centaur, and Salamander, Imperial Guard can be a very fast-moving army. However, they may not hit as hard as Eldar (though you come miles ahead in terms of number of models on the field). Fast-moving IG also are very expensive, as even the cheapest flyer, the Arvus, is £50. So if you want a fast-moving, hit and run type army without spending absurd amounts of money, the Eldar are definitely your best bet.

What's that Commissar? No, I wasn't reccomending Xenos armies... this is a, uh, code, that means, no, don't shoot, please!

Psychotic
2008-09-09, 03:32 PM
The Eldar are probably one of the fastest armies in the game, and they can bring a lot of firepower with it.

Jetbikes can form the mainstay of the army, with a 12 in. move speed and a 6 in. assault move, they can be pretty much where you want them or need them in a single turn or two. You can throw a few shuriken cannons in there (depending on how many bikes you field) in order to increase their threat range and add some more oomph to your shooting. Throw in a Warlock Jetbike with a Singing Spear and possibly the Destructor power (essentially a heavy flamer), then you have a powerful all around unit.

Most infantry that you field can be ferried around by a Wave Serpent, which is reliably survivable and fast. The Wave Serpent's armaments usually compliment its cargo's (IE. it's common practice to arm a Serpent with Scatter Lasers for anti-infantry if you're carrying a bunch of Fire Dragons).

Anywho, those are my two cents. I haven't played 40k in a few months now due to a dry spell of painting for me. Happy monkeigh hunting!

Da King
2008-09-09, 07:45 PM
I have a small IG army right now, and would like to expand it. I have the minimum for troops with one platoon of 30 men and an armoured fist squad, but with a large amount of plasma weapons, 10 Ratlings, 3 basic Leman Russes (HB sponsons + Hull Lascannon), one of which I converted to a vanquisher, a lone sentinel that I can swap out the heavy flamer/multilaser, and that's about it. Other than another platoon of about 30-40 men, I'm wondering what I should get. Right now, I'm considering:

1. Veterans: lots of fun to model and paint.
2. Stormtroopers: love the kaskrin models, not so sure about their use in game...
3. Hellound: because flamethrower tanks are awesome.
4. Leman russ Demolisher: because plasma Cannons are awesome.
5. Heavy Weapon teams: no idea which ones to get, I commonly play against SM and Tau.
6. Conscripts: yay for meatshields!
7. Another Chimera: the extra mobility I find very useful.
8. Rough Riders: great counter-charge or anti-tank.
9. More Sentinels: great with almost any weapon option, and cool models too.
10. Even more Guardsmen: because there can never be enough dakka-I mean-lasguns!

So what do you my next purchase should be?

Zenos
2008-09-10, 07:46 AM
I have a small IG army right now, and would like to expand it. I have the minimum for troops with one platoon of 30 men and an armoured fist squad, but with a large amount of plasma weapons, 10 Ratlings, 3 basic Leman Russes (HB sponsons + Hull Lascannon), one of which I converted to a vanquisher, a lone sentinel that I can swap out the heavy flamer/multilaser, and that's about it. Other than another platoon of about 30-40 men, I'm wondering what I should get. Right now, I'm considering:

1. Veterans: lots of fun to model and paint.
2. Stormtroopers: love the kaskrin models, not so sure about their use in game...
3. Hellound: because flamethrower tanks are awesome.
4. Leman russ Demolisher: because plasma Cannons are awesome.
5. Heavy Weapon teams: no idea which ones to get, I commonly play against SM and Tau.
6. Conscripts: yay for meatshields!
7. Another Chimera: the extra mobility I find very useful.
8. Rough Riders: great counter-charge or anti-tank.
9. More Sentinels: great with almost any weapon option, and cool models too.
10. Even more Guardsmen: because there can never be enough dakka-I mean-lasguns!

So what do you my next purchase should be?

More sentinels, they work best in squadrons.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-09-10, 08:04 AM
Okay... Now, I have ordered these things on ebay:

- The Cadian Battleforce (Leman Russ, 20 Shock Troopers, 3 Heavy Weapon team)
- 10 Cadian Stormtroopers
- 3 Heavy Weapon squad (Cadian)

and a friend bought me a set of 2 Cadian Officers and 2 Commissars, he'll bring them back from U.K. soon.

With the previous already painted (I also got 20 Catachan that will be used as recruits/conscripts)

4 Cadian Sergeant
3 Grenade Launchers Cadian Shock troopers
4 Flamers Shock Cadian troopers
4 Vox-Casters Shock Cadian Troopers
5 regular Cadian troopers

1 Leman Russ

Okay. I am wondering how I should equip the new 20 Shock troopers that I will get. What should be the distribution between grenade/flamer/sarges/vox/regular? And what about the Stormtroopers?

YPU
2008-09-10, 08:35 AM
A friend of mine is starting a deamonhunters army. (yea, I know its not a good army for a starting 40K player, I told him) and since we generally combine our minis I was wondering what the few IG I have lying around would be best used for, an infantry platoon or a iron fist squad. Also, what’s up with the deamonhunters chimera? No lasguns on it and no amphibious rule? Yet the spoof text next to it mentions the lasguns… I am confused. Of course a unit with heavy weapons could benefit more from the 2 fire points rather then the lasguns but still.
Also, any suggestions on how to tackle a deamonhunters army with tau, my main concern are the psycanons that ignore my shield stuff.

Wraith
2008-09-10, 03:52 PM
Daemonhunters are, at the moment, inherently broken (read: an inferior army) by the fact that their Codex is in the region of 5 years old.

Both version '4.5 Edition' and '5th Edition' of 40k have been released since it was published, making the models extremely expensive compared to newer ones (in both points and monetary terms) and a lot of their special rules try to effect enemies that no longer exist - The Daemonic 'Instability Test' mechanic being a fantastic example of this, as DH's have equipment and psychic powers that exist specifically to influence this, and it is no longer used by anything.

So the fact that one vehicle is missing one rule is the least of their problems - I found this out to my chagrin after spending $160 on 15 models that can't do what they are specifically designed to :smallannoyed:
Where I you, I would explain this extremely carefully to your friend and recommend that he play almost any army OTHER than Daemonhunters.
They're simply not a beginner's army, even before you factor in all the complicated rules that DO work.

If, however, he insists on buying them anyway, the tactics for defeating them with Tau are pretty much the same as most other kinds of MEQ armies. Grey Knights are going to be the bane of your existence due to their Shroud and "All units can Deep Strike" special rules, meaning that you won't be able to shoot at them for at least the first turn no matter what happens. When you can shoot at them, however, they die just as easily as any other T4 Sv3+ model.

So, shoot everything else starting with their anti-tank weapons - Requisitioned Tanks and the like - before moving onto foot-sloggers as they come into a reasonable range. Statistically that's going to be around 12-16" away from you, if you want a good chance of being able to get a shot off, though if you've run out of better targets there's not much harm in going for it up to about 20" and if you're feeling lucky.
Since all Deep Strikers now have a decent chance of NOT dying instantly when they turn up, GK Terminators suddenly became quite scary, although to be honest I doubt you'll have too much to worry about. Anything 'Striking can't move or Assault in the same turn, so they're sitting ducks for your railguns, Crisis Suits and Ion weapons, and you can easily outrun anything that survives to prevent them getting a round of Close Combat against you.

Don't worry too much about Psy-weapons. While they ignore your Invulnerable saves, they're not much better than normal guns so you'll still get your ordinary saves and cover saves, mostly. Psycannons have a worryingly low range and strength value for a "Heavy Weapon", which means your biggest threat will be Incinerators equipped on Deep Striking Units. These are rare and expensive, however, so you might not even see any to worry about.

DH psychic powers are a joke - the only one vaguely frightening is Holocaust, which has always struck me as a "last ditch" attack that stands a chance of killing the caster and his entire squad if unlucky rolls appear. If he's in a position to use it against Tau (In Close Combat) and does so with anything more than 1 model left alive in the squad, he's doing something very wrong.

Just pick your targets wisely and don't panic if a big man in silver armour turns up next to your firing line. You are virtually guaranteed to outnumber your DH opponent, unless he has a big pile of comparatively weak IG conscripts, which means your already-superior firepower is going to be devastating either way.

Zenos
2008-09-10, 04:18 PM
AH, my sentinels and my hellhound are finished, now face my hot loving embrace
...OF DOOM!

Shelegelah
2008-09-10, 09:58 PM
Hello all, I'm currently playing a Slaanesh Chaos Marines army that is extremely heavy on the infantry side (meaning I have around 1500 points worth of troops with just a Rhino for vehicles) My friend plays the Necrons, who are a serious pain to fight, but manageable.
However, he's about to buy a Nightbringer and two helpings of wraiths to tie up my superior close combat abilities, while his rending takes care of any ranged resistance I may have to offer. My dillemma is this:
I need something to counter both aspects of his army: The ridiculous close combat ability of the Nightbringer and the Wraiths, and the meat-shredding power of the Destroyers. (Necron Warriors I can handle)
My choices are these: I could buy a Sorceror terminator(because I love that Lash of Submission), I could buy a Predator tank and spam Lascannons for that Nightbringer, or I could buy a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, which would hopefully be at least a serious pain in the rear to the Nightbringer. Any suggestions?

Psychotic
2008-09-11, 12:13 PM
I say go for Predator Lascannon spam, but then you'd have to be extremely careful about protecting it. Another option is to grab a Havoc squad and focus solely on blasting the C'tan with it, since putting a lone Predator on the field is like saying "Please Shoot Gauss Guns Here."

Zenos
2008-09-11, 12:17 PM
Done myu sentinels and hellhound, is begining to make a pair of leman russes.

Bryn
2008-09-11, 12:39 PM
Who's coming to Games Day this year? Might be fun to meet some ITPers while I'm over there, maybe even have a game with one of you :smallwink:

Nobody? :smallfrown:

Kane
2008-09-11, 05:50 PM
Hey.... I'd love to go, but not only do I not have the money or modes of transportation, but... Shouldn't I have a legal army before I try to go?

Psychotic
2008-09-11, 06:11 PM
Same here, but as a college student, I'm already $18,000 in debt. I'm not sure that a trip to Gamesday is gonna help that much. :D

Shelegelah
2008-09-11, 10:50 PM
Gameday would be fantastic... But would unfortunately never happen for me. Thank you for your suggestion, Psychotic, Lascannon spams sound fantastic to me. I also just realized that a possible emergency solution for dealing with the Nightbringer is the Wind of Chaos power, seeing as it wounds the same way as a sniper rifle. Might save my life, who knows.
By the way, what are everyone's opinions on Greater Daemons? They seem fantastic for the low point cost, with a few stats approaching the Nightbringer's in awesomeness, but for less than half the points... Anyone have any experience with them?

YPU
2008-09-12, 11:37 AM
Hm, since generaly the guy only plays against me, and nearly always wins he will probably hardy mind a somewhat lesser army.
On another note, I’m pretty sure there are ways of getting a effective deamonhunter army in the end. I’m not sure but I think that using witchunter allies would increase the armies effectiveness a little bit?
Other stuff, landraider crusader is cheaper, but no machine spirit or extra armor…
Dreadnought as heavy and cheaper, now there is something nice. (anybody know the rules for the forgeworld knights dreadnought?)
He would still go with knights as troops,
Terminators make fine elites, even if a bit to expansive these days. He stands with the choice of using a knights hero… rather expansive guys indeed, the grand master is double the cost of a marine hero for only termy armor nemesis glaive (ok +2S, power and force, its nice) and storm bolter. Use witchunter inquisitors rather then deamonhunters might make a slight difference, I think. he liked the idea of including a unit of sister repentia in his army (the words half naked women with chainsaws did the trick)
In the end he will end up winning anyway I suppose. Im a bad strategist in any case.

Mc. Lovin'
2008-09-12, 04:11 PM
Nobody? :smallfrown:

(I'm going!)

Bryn
2008-09-12, 04:49 PM
(I'm going!)

But I know you IRL! And you know I know you IRL! :smalltongue:

Shame about everyone else, though; maybe next year we can have a GitP meetup? Maybe.

Zorg
2008-09-12, 10:41 PM
Other stuff, landraider crusader is cheaper, but no machine spirit or extra armor…
Dreadnought as heavy and cheaper, now there is something nice. (anybody know the rules for the forgeworld knights dreadnought?)

The Crusader comes with extra armour standard, and the FW Dread is the same as the Codex Dread.

YPU
2008-09-13, 01:33 PM
i dont have the book at hand right now, but the crusader doesnt name extra armor (i think) the ereta ads machine spirit.
the dreadnought, on forgeworld there is a psycanon glaive like weapon type dreadnought, the psycanon cant be put on a dreadnought standard the other weapon could simply be a standard dread weapon.

Bryn
2008-09-13, 05:23 PM
OK, a quick question before I go off and spend money at Games Day tomorrow: Does anyone have any experience with the Macharius Vulcan (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/machvhb.htm)? Specifically for playing against Tyranids, which is my army's background.

The Vulcan Mega-Bolter is S6 AP3 Heavy 15. I expect it to be godly against small broods of multi-wound Tyranid models like Warriors, where the Battle Cannons or Vanquisher Cannons would only be able to inflict a maximum of n wounds (n=brood size) but the Vulcan can inflict a good deal more; it should also be useful for taking out Fexes, Hive Tyrants and Synapse in general. It's also versatile enough to turn on the Gaunts or Stealers if they get a bit too close for comfort, and combined with two (or three) Hellhounds pouring fire those broods won't last long. That's what I hope. Does anyone know if that's accurate?

My main reason for wanting this tank is the beautiful model, but if anyone has game experiences with it, it would be good to hear them!

SolkaTruesilver
2008-09-14, 12:37 AM
First, I have to say this: I watched just yesterday Spaceballs, and notice how much the Spaceball's uniform for the prison has some distinctive features like the Cadian's. Anybody ever tried doing a Spaceball army? :smallbiggrin:

The next part of my post is less funny. I recently got my hand on a 4th-edition Imperial Guard codex, and some rules just caught my eyes...



... All weapons and wargear must be represented on the models.




...The type of xenos species the regiment specialises in fighting myst be apparent from trophies such as helmets/heads suspended from belts and behicles or special standards. Some for of reprensentation of the race in question on the regiment's members is mandatory for this Doctrine.

What the hell? Okay, I guess I understand why Xeno Fighter must have some sort of representation, since it'd be too easy to just switch between different kind Xeno Fighter to face your new opponent, but I'll have to go trough buying a few xeno units and sticking them on my guard just so I am allowed to take a doctrine?

And when I am building my army, I'm going to make damned sure I have every single combinaison of gear available for my psyckers, officer, priests, commissars, sergeants, etc... because I FREAKING NEED THE PROPER ITEM ON THE PROPER MODEL?

Does that apply to the vehicules and heavy weapon teams as well? if I installed Heavy Bolters on my Leman Russ, and I want to play it with flamers instead, I'm simply screwed, is that it? I'll have to go buy another Leman Russ, and install flamers on it?

Okay, maybe I am overreacting. Maybe players are leniants about this peticular rule, I don't know, I haven't played much WH40K - yet -. Off course the players must know Games Workshop's pact with the devil to make more money, so perhaps they have learned to do away with some rules GW seemed to have created just to make people buy more models?

What's the community's attitude toward those rules?

tyckspoon
2008-09-14, 01:00 AM
70% of wargear options can be represented by sticking on a little tab of Green Stuff in approximately the right shape and then painting it correctly. Alternately, for pistols and knives and the like just glue a random gun at the character's waist. Nobody except maybe the people who vet armies for Games Day tournaments is going to be looking closely enough to notice, or is likely to care. In fact, it's been my experience that the people who check armies for official GW events are the only ones who care about exact representation. Entire games have been played with proxy models (ok.. so the Termies are the Nobs, the Guardsmen are Shootas..) without complaint, although probably with some confusion; compared to that, having a model that doesn't have his melta-bombs represented on the figure isn't really a problem. So.. mostly, I would say don't worry about it.

Or you could look into modular construction for the figures you expect to be changing loadouts a lot. Rare-earth magnets are popular for that; stick them in the shoulder joints instead of glue and you can pop sets of arms on and off. For tanks, sometimes you don't need to do anything- just don't glue the turret and sponson weapons down. The rest of the model frame will often hold them in place, letting you swap in and out different sponson weapon drums or variant turret patterns.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-09-14, 01:14 AM
I see what you mean. It just seemed so frustrating if I had to go back and install grenades on my shock troopers just so I can actually begin using those, and then having to remove them from my models when I don't? Wtf?

about "just putting a gun on their belt": the thing is, so far, I like the way my models are painted. The heavy weapon came with strats, etc.. and holstered weapons are carefully painted to that they look like it. I don't want to have to add and remove parts of my models everytime I want to change my army list.

But the other point (about having a stealthy melta gun, lol), it perfectly valid. That is why, earlier in the thread, I specifically asked for how many more Flamer/Grenade Launchers/Sarges I'd need. If worse come to wort, I'll come up with little flags to identify special weapon (You that flamer with the little flag? Well, he's a proxy for a melta gun user, don't confuse him with his buddy with a REAL flamer) and warn my opponent beforehand.

I wonder, what do I have to tell my opponent about my current army list? For example, do I must tell him what's fitted on my Leman Russ when he asks it at the beginning of the game? Should I warn him that "this squad" is equipped with grenades? Should I tell him what kind of grenade?

Dervag
2008-09-14, 02:10 AM
I think it would be poor sportsmanship not to.

After all, you're at least supposed to give your enemy full information about your army's weapons loadout by having it all visible on the models. Since that's not practical, you should probably volunteer information about which squads are armed with antitank weapons and stuff like that.

Wraith
2008-09-14, 09:26 AM
I think you guys have an absolutely perfect answer to this question. Different configurations of the same model is strictly speaking unnecessary, but at the same time they shouldn't be needed if you're using the correctly sportsman-like attitude :smallsmile:

On a slightly different subject, in my little circle of opponents I seem to have broken the metagame and thought you guys would like to know :smalltongue:

I should explain what I play in order to make this clear: Mech Eldar, supported by lots of Warlocks and Farseers.
What this means is that half of my 2000 point army has T6, with 3+/5+(Cover) saves which I usually get to reroll, while the rest is comprised of 4+ Invulnerable, or simply T8 W3 for my heavy choices - all of which are Fearless to boot.

It's not an unkillable army by any stretch of the imagination but I freely admit it's quite a daunting one and a pain-in-the-everything under certain situations - Take And Hold, for example.
My opponents, however, have over reacted to an alarming degree and have either bought entire armies to take me out, or have modified their existing ones to the extent that they are unrecognisable from the lovingly-crafted themes they used to represent. The Slaaneshi/Tzeench Chaos Marine player has found a gratuitous influx of Obliterator Cults, 5-Man Havoc Squads, Plague Marines and even an (Undivided) Defiler. The guy who originally played with a plethora of Railcannons and Ion Blasters in his tailor-made Tau army, has recently swapped the whole lot out for a Deathwing-themed army: 35 Terminators, backed up by 3 Vindicators.

Three S10 Pie-plates working in unison does not, for a fun game, make.

Flamers in Tac Squads have been switched for Meltas. Perfectly servicable Missile Launchers have spontaneously metamorphed into Lascannons. Nothing is even entertained as a viable option unless it is at least S9, Ap2 or both. Essentially it means that everything can kill everything else in one shot, and taking anything less than a fully-fledged MEQ squad is invariably a sacrifice by the end of Turn 2.

In short, the War has escalated to the point where the next step is to start introducing Apocalypse-Grade "Strength D" weapons into normal 2000 points armies, and that is a boundary that I'd rather not see crossed.

Needless to say, despite having the deep-held satisfaction that you inspire dread like no other you know of, this became very old very quickly. Playing with nothing but high-end, high power enemies sucks all the tactics out of the game, and it usually boils down to 'whoever does the most damage in the first turn, wins'. Chaos Marine Armies should not follow the same mindset as Imperial Guard tank armies, for crying out loud! :smallwink:

I'm no longer sure if this is a rant or a boast, but I'm open to responses to either.
I'm seriously considering ridding myself of my Ghost Army and taking something deliberately 'softer' just to encourage other Players to loosen up a bit, but I realise that such change will come slowly and I will be in for many-a severe thrashing in the meantime; thrashings that may only encourage them to KEEP their superior, Las-infested armies.

Suggestions as to what I should play next are greatly appreciated, along with any observations you might wish to add.
Even if they're just different versions of 'well, you started it and you're just getting what you deserve', or if you want to agree with me that the modern 40k game is leaning on the fashionable crutch of 'Super Heavy Weapons = Win', as - with the welcome exception of a few very dedicated theme armies that have been discussed on this Forum - seems to be the case everywhere I look, I'd like to know. :smallsmile:

Eldan
2008-09-14, 09:50 AM
Not everyone plays superheavy... I play a mixed Eldar army. Granted, I have fire dragons, a falcon, a wraithlord, reavers and the like, but I also play with harlequin and two pathfinder squads in the same army.

On the other hand, my main opponent is a Tau player who loves Railguns. As in, maximum number of broadsides and a tank. Infantry with railguns. All that stuff. Everything that doesn't have a railgun is a suit. And a minimum amount of firewarriors. It's really annoying. At least Falcons never die. But having the Wraithlord obliterated as soon as he leaves cover... meh.

On the other hand, my friend once tried a Chaos army with a lot of proxies and he went down in two turns, all models dead.

Wraith
2008-09-14, 10:03 AM
Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate that everyone plays the army they like, and that they are all very different as and when they want/need to be. It wasn't my intention to blindly say "Everyone plays silly armies because they have too many Tanks", and I apologise if it seems that way.

I suppose that what I mean is, like your Tau friend, Eldan, it just seems that Power Gaming is VERY powerful, and every other Forum I visit that has people suggesting armies and wargear invariably has the most common advice being "take more lascannons" rather than "try new things".

I know that everyone reading this thread has alternative selections and backups in their armies, so I hope I don't have much to fear in saying that what *I* usually play against is the sort of army as described above, which I tend to find unimaginative and lazy. Worse still, it often seems to work and I'm at a loss to find ways to influence this for the better.

For example: Another friend, who I have not yet mentioned, has made progress in this area with a Khornate Marines army, though almost entirely due to the new Destroyed Vehicle/Disembarking rules that means he's better off if his tanks are one-shotted in the first turn. It's small progress, and still based on the idea of elite (not the FoC designation, mind) squads winning the game single-handedly.
And he also has a Vindicator 'just in case'. :smallfrown:

Maybe I should just accept that I'm getting old, let it go and move on. After all, I had been playing for several years when the original rules for the Eldar Prism Cannon was released and at the time, judging by the reaction of non-Eldar players, you'd think that a 'S9 Blast' weapon was going to single-handed win games for you - never mind the s8 Large Blast abomination you could make if you took 'Prisms in all 3 Heavy Choices! :smalltongue:
A single weapon that is now S10 Large Blast used by a heavier, slower army might not seem so unreasonable, in comparison...

Zorg
2008-09-14, 10:19 AM
i dont have the book at hand right now, but the crusader doesnt name extra armor (i think) the ereta ads machine spirit.
the dreadnought, on forgeworld there is a psycanon glaive like weapon type dreadnought, the psycanon cant be put on a dreadnought standard the other weapon could simply be a standard dread weapon.

The Crusader is listed as having Extra Armour in the special rules section, that's why it costs 5pts more than the regular type (Ex-A costing 5pts back then).

My bad on the Dread - Imperial Armour 2 gives the option for a Psycannon at +40pts, but is otherwise the same. The close combat weapon is a fancy looking, but standard, dread close combat weapon.

In regards to proxying miniatures, it really depends on the situation - I'd be really annoyed and probably quit the game if I was told as the shooting started that the heavy bolter weapon team were actually lascannons, but I'd be fine being told beforehand.

Things like greandes and whatnot not so much, but if a tank has different weapons to those shown or a character has a powerfist but the mini doesn't I'd want to know beforehand.

I guess the reason for the rule is if in a tournament playing 6+ games over a weekend it'd be pretty confusing by the end of it trying to remember what's what. For just a friendly pick up battle I've no problem, having fought an army of "all the Fire Warriors are Kroot, and all the Kroot are Fire Warriors". Personally I like to be able to look at my opponent's army and make my tactical descisions based on what I see without having to ask what each unit is.

I usually only use one or two melta guns in my Marine army, and three missile launchers, but have four and six of each respectively just in case I need more for the list. Likewise my heavy/special weapons when lined up are about a third of my total figures because of this - I have a dozen Vet Sergeants of various persuasions, which is ok as I can throw them into a Vet Squad if needs be.

Here's a good article on why collecting a ridculous amount of stuff is a good thing. (http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsmaxi.html) My favourite quote is: "if all you have is 3,000 points in your army, you will always field the same force and your opponent will develop tactics to stop you." My main opponent has around 2,000pts of Tau, I've got around 6,000pts of Marines if I reach for the Rogue Trader shelf, so can throw a wider variety of things his way.

Zorg
2008-09-14, 10:30 AM
I suppose that what I mean is, like your Tau friend, Eldan, it just seems that Power Gaming is VERY powerful, and every other Forum I visit that has people suggesting armies and wargear invariably has the most common advice being "take more lascannons" rather than "try new things".

One thing I found to combat this is using scenarios other than the standard missions. For example I'm playing a campaign against the Tau. The first mission was 400pts combat patrol, limited to Troops and Fast attack, night fighting rules.

The next mission is a 1500pt pitched battle (yet to be played). However it is in dense urban terrain (actual urban, not standard 40k ruins), with every building being a scoring objective. The buildings are destructable though, and if they are all destroyed the defender wins.

Normally we both play fairly mechanised armies - I like my predators and dreads, he loves suits and devilfish. The terrain will be so tight that vehicles won't be very mobile in most places, and very vulnerable to flanking. We've both admitted to having terrible trouble coming up with a list - but that's why I designed the scenario, to make us both try new things.

Mixing up scenery types often works - playing a game with really heavy terrain when you normally use a fairly light amount etc

SolkaTruesilver
2008-09-14, 10:40 AM
Which means the ones who spit the most money have the best advantages.

Hmm.. can't say I'm crazy about that. But I guess it's somewhat fair game.

Do anyone have developped some way of running a truly good strategic campaign simulation? And I am not talking about territory control Risk-like (like Dark Crusade) but a true situation with army movement and terrain reconnaissance?