TPKs that you get blamed for

[Azoth]

As DMs we are the story makers and world developers. Anything that happens in our campaigns are due to our own design. Sometimes though, those who inhabit it make choices that would have Darwin rolling over in his grave. Still, the acts of stupidity and their consequences are our faults. So brothers who create worlds from the Primal Plane that gave birth to all others, come and dance before the fire of creation with me and tell tale of these moments. Share with us all the stories of your worlds, where players have done things most simple to show they lack sense given even unto animal kind. Tell tale of how you were wrongly accused of causing a TPK because of player stupidity.

Okay I have to vent this one after last night's session. I am the DM for a group of level 10 players that were invading a mountainside nation of people to try and gain access to some mystical spire. They decided not to get any guide, no one has any wilderness skills, and they ignored the warnings of the town on the outskirts of the mountains about going into them.

I deal with griping left and right about traps, difficult terrain, ambushes by dire animals, being extorted by evil fey and skirmishes with hunting parties that are way too strong to just be normal humans/elves...and take it all in stride. Hell, I was even having fun with it in spite of the whining.

Then comes last night...

They come across a 350ft wide chasm that is about 600ft above a giant river with white water style currents. After a few minutes they come across a rope bridge across it. The standard 4 ropes, wooden boards to walk on type in any adventure movie.

The Dragon Shaman, Wizard, Favored Soul, and Bard won't listen to the Rogue and let him scout the bridge out first, instead opting to just walk across it casual as can be. Low and behold that boards snap under their weight, fall away from their binding right as weight is put on them, and every other cliche rope bridge trap/mishap occurs. Still, they saunter on to the halfway point.

Here they stop because a volley of arrows sever the top two ropes that act as hand rails and set the boards on fire (Dragon's Breath arrows with Serpent Tongue heads). They all panic and try to keep balance on the swaying bridge. Luckily, they manage, but instead of moving forward or back...they try to return fire.

I point out the bridge is burning to pieces, swaying crazily about to flip, and will likely snap under their weight soon. They continue shooting arows, bolts, and AoE spells into the surrounding folliage to no real sucess.

Then the rope bridge snaps. All but the Rogue fail the Reflex save to grab hold of the falling away segments. I give him a Reflex save to catch the Wizard who was next to him, and he succeeds. This starts a daisy chain of Reflex saves to catch the others and ever increasing Str checks from each person higher up the chain to hold the weight.

As if by Pelor's will they all save one another, but the rogue is hurting trying to hold everyone up. I describe the bridge groaning and the rope starting to fray slowly to them. Telling them that it won't hold them all for long like this. They decide the best coarse of action is to climb up one another andr use the bridge half like a ladder...all while still under enemy fire.

After two rounds of being peppered with arrows and not making much progress, they start cursing. They then notice that the bridge is on fire again, from...you guessed it more flaming arrows. I tell them that the ropes are fraying faster now and they have only a few seconds before they plummet to their deaths in the water below.

They still try to climb the broken bridge. It snaps and they all begin falling. I tell them that they have 3 rounds to act before they will hit the water and take fall damage.

Most of them can either cast spells to save themselves, or are packing adamantie weapons they can use to find purchase in the cliff face, all of them have rope and all but the wizard have pitons. All of them had some reasonable way to survive and not fall to their deaths. Still they just try to make Reflex saves and Str checks to grab the rock face to stop their fall.

The only one who did something that I consider smart, surprised me. I forgot that the rogue had a hand crossbow and an adamantine collapsable grappling hook bolt. He had the bolt tied to 100ft of dwarven rope, and the rope tied around his waist like a belt. He did this three levels ago and hadn't used it since...so well I forgot about it.

He shoots, hits the cliff face, falls to the end of the rope and jerks to a stop. The others try to grab him and fail. He tries to pull himself up the rope but keeps failing the check horribly for a while. Then when he gets up to his bolt's hole in the wall...he plants his feet onto the cliff wall and pulls as hard as he can to free it. His reason being that the thing cost too much to leave behind...

So we end up with a full TPK...and it is my fault as the DM for letting it happen and setting them up. Again they were all level 10 and died like this...how in the infinite Abyss is it my fault?

[navar100]

There's a giant river at the bottom. The water couldn't catch their fall and mitigate some of the falling damage? No swim/tumble checks to see if they could manage their fall into a dive formation for a circumstance bonus to saving throw or swim check when they hit the water to avoid drowning and come back to the surface of the water with the current pulling them along. Probably there's a waterfall down yonder, but they could have several rounds of trying to get to shore before then.

[Azoth]

They were already injured when crossing the bridge.

Hitting water is not like hitting an air cushion...it is like slamming into concrete due to surface tension.

They died from the fall damage. Despite it capping at 20d6 for a 200 ft fall...there was no way to mitigate the damage from the fall once they impacted the water.

Also, I did not need to grant them a second Reflex save to catch each other once they failed the one for the bridge falling. I also gave them longer than necessary before the bridge snapped in both circumstances. I didn't come at them for several rounds with flaming arrows, which gave them more time to think of ANYTHING to do that would be helpful even on top of the swaying bridge.

These weren't level one characters that I did this to, these were level 10. Two casters with access to level 5 Spells. Hell, even just the Create Water cantrip would have put out the flames on the bridge and bought them time. Running to either bank could have saved them. Casting Feather Fall, Web, Dimension Door, Teleport, Fly, Air Walk, Dark Way,...ect Which are spells they know and prepare would have saved them. Even just taking their adamantine daggers and stabbing the cliff face would have stopped their fall in all likelyhood.

Instead they chose to just make reflex saves and str checks to save their hides. It was as if they completely forgot about their character sheets. They ignored their gear, they ignored class abilities, they ignored spells.

[stack]

Didn't cast feather fall? They earned the TPK through great effort and perseverance in the face of all sense.

[Lateral]

This situation seems fine (and, actually, rather exciting to me) except for this one thing:


Then when he gets up to his bolt's hole in the wall...he plants his feet onto the cliff wall and pulls as hard as he can to free it. His reason being that the thing cost too much to leave behind...
If it didn't occur to him that pulling your grappling hook out of the cliff wall while you're still using it to climb, it's your responsibility as a DM to point that out to him. After all, the player may not have thought of it, but then again he's not actually experiencing that situation, and unless the character is a brain-dead moron, he'd realize just how stupid that idea is.

[Azoth]

Trust me, I made it obvious it was a bad idea. Something to the tune of "You are going to do what?! Tell me you are joking...please..."

[Phelix-Mu]

Hitting water is not like hitting an air cushion...it is like slamming into concrete due to surface tension.

They died from the fall damage. Despite it capping at 20d6 for a 200 ft fall...there was no way to mitigate the damage from the fall once they impacted the water.

I certainly don't think you were to blame for much of this, but I thought I'd quibble a bit with this.

I'm pretty sure the "surface tension" bit only counts for relatively still water. While it's certainly easy to injure oneself diving into even moving water, I think a check of some kind to represent a dive would mitigate a portion of the damage.

Some simple googling tells me that the irl, non-10th level world high dive record is over 170 feet (with negligible damage taken). With good rolls and 10 levels, I would think pulling off some kind of dive would not be impossible, even considering that they were wearing gear and stuff.

Of course, you're the DM, and your ruling is the one that counts. Just try to make sure that the version of "good sense" you are working with is the same one they are working with.

That said, that was some epic boneheaded behavior. I especially like the part where they stand on an unsteady, burning, disintegrating rope bridge while taking fire from enemies unseen, and proceed to ready the canons to return fire. And it sounded like they did this for several rounds, demonstrating a remarkable lack of self-preservation.

[nyjastul69]

From what you say it seems like you handled everything fine. While it was a tough scenario, they seem to have had the resources to mitigate many of the potential problems and chose not to use them. I guess I need to ask: did you roll the 20d6 for the fall, or did you just say you won't survive the fall? After a 600' fall it hardly matters that they landed in water.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok here my tale of derpitude. Heres the party, a halforc druid, a human monk, a human rogue, and an elven ranger, at lvl 12 if i recall. Now i need to say that this party isnt optimized at ALL, but thats ok this is when i was still a pretty new DM and i was just discovering the Complete series of books, so thats fine. Heres what went down:

They are going through a dungeon, usually exploration stuff, and they come to a door. They dont check for traps, never do, and the monk and rogue dodged another pendulum axe. So all is normal. The come to a bridge, and they start walking across it, and they get attacked by a Half Fiend Half Elemental (fire) Troll. It only had like 12 HD, so its around a Cr 10-12. Now i know that they have access to Cold magic and Acid magic, now i was WAY to lazy to actually enforce spell preparation on divine casters so they had a ton of leeway.

Well they charge my "balrog" and they are doing ok, when it starts to break the bridge, well they were smart enough to gtfo the bridge and the troll just flew there throwing fire at them. And they just stood there and shot back, with no spells. The rogue, monk, and the druid just threw rocks at it, while the ranger shot doing almost nothing.

Well several rounds of this go by and the thing gets annoyed, so it draws a harpoon and spears the Druid, who then tries to pull the troll towards him. Obviously the troll won and he is now dangling over the chasm, and the troll drops him, and he dies..........after about 10 rounds of falling. Oh btw he had almost all of his spells and all of his Wildshapes.

Well it worked once so the troll did it again, and again. However the rogue and the ranger fared better because the ranger shot a rope into a wall and the rogue grabbed him. Then another dozen rounds or so and the monk is deflecting the harpoon, and the troll is getting pissed. So the troll draws its greatsword, charges and nails the monk. What does the monk do? Does he run with his insane speed? No he stands and tries to fight something that hurts him when he punches it with less than half health! The troll at this point is over 75% health because of regen and it backhands him off the ledge. Ill give him credit in waiting to slow fall until the bottom, but by that point the troll showed up and finished him. Then it flew back up and cut the rope the ranger and rogue were trying to climb. Well they died.

They were quite angry with me. They had the ability to bypass its DR, they could overcome its regen either by pure damage out put or by actually using a spell, or they could have left, which they have done before!

I must also point out that the Druid not the Monk was the weakest party member. He would only cast Shillelagh and didnt wear any armor, his Dex was a 13. why did he do that? I have no idea, honestly the Monk was probably the best party member on damage output, mainly because the Rogue couldnt hit the Broadside of a mountain.

[TheSunKing]

I have to ask, how much did they complain afterwards? How mad were they at you for "what you did to them"?

[Blackhawk748]

They were PISSED mainly because they lost, they felt i was unfair and i think they wanted to kill me lol Then i pointed out all the ways they could have killed it, and then they felt stupid, except the Druid he was still pissed.

[NeroMcNamara]

For the most part your party deserved that TPK. If I were in your shoes I would have started making suggestions after the bridge snapped but otherwise it was entirely their fault for ignoring every matter of sense and just trying to be all "manly" and buff it out. They were arrogant and need to be brought down several pegs. Tell them to suck it up, roll new characters, and stop being so F***ING DUMB! Seriously, multiple spell casters that had spells prepared for just such an occasion and not one of them cast a single spell other than trying to attack the ambushing party? That TPK was waiting to happen.

[Phelix-Mu]

They were PISSED mainly because they lost, they felt i was unfair and i think they wanted to kill me lol Then i pointed out all the ways they could have killed it, and then they felt stupid, except the Druid he was still pissed.

I feel glad to have the players that I've had, who have all pretty much been clear about D&D not being a game where "winning" or "losing" are things. Of course, it sucks to have a pc that you've played a while get killed off, but since you are the one who controls what that pc does, it's at least a matter of shared responsibility (minus massive DM railroading, which is a thing).

[Blackhawk748]

well they werent honestly that pissed about losing their characters, they were just angry that they died. I was going resurrect their characters, a Devil needed a favor, and they tried to argue with it. It then decided they werent worth the effort and just left them in the Hells. Then they got angry again.

[hobbitkniver]

This forum is as much about DnD as it is a support group for the idiocy we've all experienced while playing DnD.

[Blackhawk748]

This forum is as much about DnD as it is a support group for the idiocy we've all experienced while playing DnD.

Yes it is, and thank you all for listening to me gripe about the dumbest group i ever DMed for.

Also i forgot to mention that they were all pretty much Chaotic Stupid Evil Stupid and a bunch of arsonists. Now i know that the monk shouldnt have been able to advance as a monk, but he did ti anyway no matter how many times i told him he was Chaotic Evil, so i just had them be periodically hunted by pallies and clerics

[NeroMcNamara]

the only time I've ever seen a TPK that pissed off the party was when I started the campaign in a gladiators arena. They all became slaves in one way or another and were forced to work together as a team in the arena in order to entertain the wealthy masses that came to see lesser beings fight for their amusement. rather than begrudgingly play along while slowly trying to find a way to free themselves, working their way up the ranks until they gained the right to free themselves, or any other method that I offered to them... they just decided to storm the guy in charge and demand their freedom.

and by that I mean like in that movie gladiator where they guy throws a spear at the emperor in order to get a foot hold and climb his way up so he could kill him. And the same damn thing happened. they made it halfway up before a group of guards well above their level dropped them all. After that I had them brought to the gallows. They were given one last chance. swear fealty to the king or die. they all died and then proceeded to complain about how the gladiator arena sucked and that my story telling method sucked. So I said screw it, let em replay their characters, and started them in a tavern.

needless to say I didn't stay with that group much longer. they refused to go away from anything other than cookie cutter storylines and if I didn't show them the encounter books I was using they refused to play my campaigns.

[Azoth]

From what you say it seems like you handled everything fine. While it was a tough scenario, they seem to have had the resources to mitigate many of the potential problems and chose not to use them. I guess I need to ask: did you roll the 20d6 for the fall, or did you just say you won't survive the fall? After a 600' fall it hardly matters that they landed in water.

I rolled it in plain view for each of them seperately.

What really ticked me off about their anger wasn't so much the fact that they died or even that I was blamed. It was the fact that these players have shown me time and again they are capable of great tactical decisions and lateral thinking. The entire encounter should have been a cake walk for them to get through compared to the sadistic horrors I usually throw at them. These are players who have had me go full blown Tuckers Kobolods with Halflings in a castle keep that makes Tomb of Horrors seem like a picnic in the plane of sunshine, beer ponds, and cake trees. How they were that dumb is what pisses me off the most.

[DarkEternal]

Let me see...last tpk I was a part of:

Party composed out of Crusader, Warblade, Psionic and a Beguiler( a friend rolled a rogue as well and was supposed to join us that session). All were level 6.

The campaign was set in Forgotten Realms, but due to shenanigans, we ended up in Ravenloft which we as players don't know much about, and our characters even less.

In any case, a lot of stuff happened. The Crusader ended up a living abomination that lost his Con score and was now practically Frankensteins monster that still had a moral credo to him.

We came across a band of dark skinned humans fighting ogres. Of course, we went to help the humans, not really knowing who the good guys are since the characters were supposed to come from some hick village and ogres are usually killed on sight. Weeeeell, while the ogres were indeed evil, the humans were not much better since it was basically a fight for the land. We ended up witnessing said humans butchering ogrish babies after the battle was done since they were ordered to "clear" the area.

After that, their entire company ordered us to surrender our weapons and to go to meet some kind of a vizier maharaja or something. We agreed, though our warblade wasn't too keen, especially when he had to give his weapon.

When we reached the camp (without weapons), we saw one more human being carried around(said rogue from a player character). Our Beguiler then chose that logic sucks, and decided to cast some kind of a spell that would awaken the man. He had that skill trick where he could hide his casting. Problem being that he had to pass the check against what was pretty much the entire camp. Which he eventually failed.

Since it seems that Ravenloftians hate displays of magic, the grand chief ordered us dead on the spot. Us without weapons? Well, you can imagine how that turned out. Let's just say 4 new heads were impaled on a stake that day. (Rogue survived but since he didn't know who we are, and he didn't participate in combat, there was no point in continuing the campaign). The guy playing the beguiler to this day holds it adamant that he didn't do anything wrong, and frankly the rest chose to stop trying to make him see sense.


----

In the other one, where I DM'd, the party composed out of a cleric, bard, archivist, knight and swordsage were "entertained" by a high level chaotic evil, utterly insane wizard astronomer. He held an entire noble family hostage just so he could use their fancy telescope when the party barged in. He was nice to them, actually. Told them he just wanted to use the telescope and that the family deserved what they got for never inviting him to their house. The party was level 4 at the time, the wizard was level 12. I gave all hints he was a powerful wizard and such, but they continued to egg him on.

They had good diplomacy checks, even when the bard and the knight started to clang around the telescope while at the "tea party". He held the rest of the family as hostages as well. In any case, when they were in a small room, the knight decided enough was enough and used his knights challenge to provoke the wizard which failed. This is an offensive action, so I told them to roll initative. Needless to say, one Evard Tentacles spell later and the entire party(except cleric who had the travel domain) were rounds away from utter slaughter. The rest of the family were killed, except for the father(wasn't in the room) and the son(previous adventurer so he had a lot of hp).

Bard and Archivist were awesome with their diplomacy rolls, rolling natural twenties and having max skill ranks. In any case, it was enough to get the wizard from hostile to neutral which made him release the tentacles if they dropped their weapons. Naturally the knight charged anyway and managed to bull rush and pin the wizard to the floor(this being a published module, he had horrible spells, none of them to escape this kind of a situation). Long story short, the following rounds, they basically stabbed the guy to death.

Naturally, the same guy who played the beguiler plays the knight here. Again, adamant he didn't do anything wrong, that he is lawful good. Even after he went to intimidate the head of the house hold moments after his entire family was butchered just so he could get the man to stop weeping and offer help that they were sent to get. Naturally, after intimidate passed he was hostile and soon they had the entire province that the guy governed after them. They managed to escape by the skin of their teeth.

This one was not a tpk "technically", though it brought so much strife in the party in and out of character that it might as well have been.

[zlefin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling
there is some mitigation that occurs due to falling into water; that said these do seem like rather foolish party decisions.
They may be useful if I try to play a low-wisdom character; it's hard for me to shut down my strategic tendencies.

hmm, I suppose if my players were acting dumb and at risk of TPK i'd offer int/wisdom rolls to think of something if the players wanted.

[RFLS]

-snip-

Have you posted that second one before? It sounds really familiar. I think I remember something about a spiral staircase...?

[Darth Stabber]

The players (about lvl6) are being introduced to a wyrm copper dragon, who is about to give them a quest. The players declare "attack". I tell them to roll knowledge arcane. They roll well and I tell them that copper dragons are usually chaotic good, and are usually somewhere benign and benevolent, and this one is OLD, and with dragons age=power. So they attack any way. Then they blaim me for giving them an enemy they couldn't beat.

[juicycaboose]

Have you posted that second one before? It sounds really familiar. I think I remember something about a spiral staircase...?

Yeah I'm positive I've read a similar story before

[Silva Stormrage]

The players (about lvl6) are being introduced to a wyrm copper dragon, who is about to give them a quest. The players declare "attack". I tell them to roll knowledge arcane. They roll well and I tell them that copper dragons are usually chaotic good, and are usually somewhere benign and benevolent, and this one is OLD, and with dragons age=power. So they attack any way. Then they blaim me for giving them an enemy they couldn't beat.

Ya a lot of players seem to assume that if it exists they can kill it. While true if a DM decides to send out a group of bandits against a party the party can usually assume the bandits aren't twice their level. But still its an odd phenomenon that PC's expect to be the strongest thing around.

[Averis Vol]

Hmmm, it hasn't happened yet, but I foresee one of these in the near future in the game I'm running. MY group has, over the course of three sessions, been captured by a clan of werewolves, made a deal with a chaotic evil black blood cultists who is chained up under their city, and escaped. they intend to go back in and fight the werewolf leader (CR 14 werewolf lord, whom they scryed and used the appropriate knowledge checks to know exactly what he is) and his 6 lieutenants (All known to be atleast 8th level, figured out via spells). The worst part is that they're level 6, and If the black blood cultist actually helps them, he's only CR 8 himself.

so, yea, we'll see what happens.

[Slipperychicken]

[To OP]

For the not-having-a-guide-bit, I'd think a common sense check would be in order. Some roll to entitle them to a hint, as it isn't obvious when you're actually playing the game.

A warning was due for pulling out the grappling hook too.

For the falling damage, it is completely inexcusable that a Wizard would be level 10 without either a flight spell or even a Feather Fall available to him. Couldn't even cast Rope Trick and climb to safety into it. It's a rather despressing display of Wizardly failure.

[Azoth]

[To OP]

For the not-having-a-guide-bit, I'd think a common sense check would be in order. Some roll to entitle them to a hint, as it isn't obvious when you're actually playing the game.

A warning was due for pulling out the grappling hook too.

For the falling damage, it is completely inexcusable that a Wizard would be level 10 without either a flight spell or even a Feather Fall available to him. Couldn't even cast Rope Trick and climb to safety into it. It's a rather despressing display of Wizardly failure.

Trust me when I say they were given warning about every bad decision they made. Several NPCs in the town told them that they shouldn't go without a guide because of how dangerous the tribes on the mountain were, and how dangerous jusst the environment was. They shrugged it off.

As for the grappling hook...look up in the thread and you will see my reaction to the rogue declaring what he was going to do with his grappling hook.

[Darth Stabber]

Ya a lot of players seem to assume that if it exists they can kill it. While true if a DM decides to send out a group of bandits against a party the party can usually assume the bandits aren't twice their level. But still its an odd phenomenon that PC's expect to be the strongest thing around.

Needless to say I was very happy when my current players met a gem studded skull (while at level 6) their response, after a nat 20 know:religion check, was roughly "what can we do for you sir".

[DR27]

I feel glad to have the players that I've had, who have all pretty much been clear about D&D not being a game where "winning" or "losing" are things. Of course, it sucks to have a pc that you've played a while get killed off, but since you are the one who controls what that pc does, it's at least a matter of shared responsibility (minus massive DM railroading, which is a thing).
I would argue that a TPK is "losing." Doesn't mean that it's not fun to lose sometimes. read (http://angrydm.com/2010/07/winning-dd/)

[Darth Stabber]

I would argue that a TPK is "losing." Doesn't mean that it's not fun to lose sometimes. read (http://angrydm.com/2010/07/winning-dd/)

Winning D&D as a gm doesn't involve killing characters, it involves killing player's souls.

[Lateral]

Winning D&D as a gm doesn't involve killing characters, it involves killing player's souls.

Ooh, you've got half of it. Winning D&D means facing them with something so ridiculous, cliched, over-the-top, and yet impossible to defeat that it forces their souls to commit seppuku. Things like acid-breathing flying sharks, rooms with no exits slowly filling with lava, and rooms where everything is actually trying to kill you. Including the floor, walls, and ceiling.

[Garwain]

I had a TPL (as in: loss) my players were dismayed about. The players found their antagonists in a temple that was totally slaughtered, flanked with 3 Vrocks (CR6 + 3x CR9). Party was 4 lvl 6s, although with some over WBL items granted.

After all the hints of destruction and bloodshed, and how powerful demons tend to be, they (even reluctantly!) started the battle. Needless to say, after a few rounds, the hero's were bleeding and tried to escape. Vrocks can teleport. So they did. I let them live.

I didn't say they should charge in and fight. At that moment realizing there ARE more powerfull beings around, was probably for the best.

[DarkEternal]

Have you posted that second one before? It sounds really familiar. I think I remember something about a spiral staircase...?

Probably, when I needed to vent since it was hair-pullingly frustrating, yeah.

[Sith_Happens]

Probably, when I needed to vent since it was hair-pullingly frustrating, yeah.

I definitely remember the thread telling that story and asking whether any consequences should befall the Knight re:his code of conduct. The general consensus was "Yes," if I recall, though the thread went on for over a dozen pages as "(w/s)hould (s)he fall?" threads are all wont to do.

[Barstro]

What really ticked me off about their anger wasn't so much the fact that they died or even that I was blamed. It was the fact that these players have shown me time and again they are capable of great tactical decisions and lateral thinking.

From your version of events, it sounds as if they think PCs should not be able to die between plot points. Dangerous mountain? We don't need a guide, our next fight is inside the mountain! They seem to have thought that events only occur at the scheduled fights, and any random encounter is just fluff that cannot hurt them. Hopefully they learned.

[Arc_knight25]

We had a close TPK. Party consisted of a Ranger/Fighter, Minotaur/Druid/Primal Order, Rogue/Ninja, Favoured Soul, Warmage and finally me the Paladin/Bard/DD. We where in a ancient dungeon, came across a very small corridor with a bunch of pots and vases in it. As we were discussing how to proceed. I guess we were taking to long so the Ranger takes aim with her longbow and shots a pot.

Well, this of course was the trap. So Wail of the Banshee goes off. I think only the Warmage and the Ranger were out of range. The rest of us need to make our Fort save or die. The Minotaur with the biggest fort save fails by rolling a 2, Favoured Soul fails, Rogue fails and me having the second best save succeeds. Was a long trip back to town dragging everyone for there Rez's.

--------

In a 4e campaign we had a TPK due to the wizard in the party, making a mess of the battlefield by dropping all of his AoE's and sustaining them. He cornered himself on the other side of the room. Rather then drop the AoE's he yells at us to come and heal him. We laugh and say we aren't walking through that. So as he is cut down we are down a controller to keep mobs at bay. We then become overrun and TPK. All because of the wizard.

[TheSunKing]

In a 4e campaign we had a TPK due to the wizard in the party, making a mess of the battlefield by dropping all of his AoE's and sustaining them. He cornered himself on the other side of the room. Rather then drop the AoE's he yells at us to come and heal him. We laugh and say we aren't walking through that. So as he is cut down we are down a controller to keep mobs at bay. We then become overrun and TPK. All because of the wizard.

It doesn't sound necessarily like it was entirely the fault of the Wizard. A slight misuse of his AoEs manages to get the party killed? The DM might have just had too many enemies, or the rest of the party didn't think to run, failed to uphold their part of combat, or many other reasons.

[Jormengand]

Mine is not very exciting. I set an army on the players, on the understanding that they run away during that scene - perhaps after doing something to hinder the invading hordes of level 1 aggressors (the party being a lv 6 cleric, wizard barbarian and ninja). There was also a small dragon involved, of CR 7 IIRC, which was not supposed even to reach the party.

What did they do? They turned and fought. I pointed out that there were over four thousand of these creatures, and they didn't have a cat in Cania's chance of beating them all. But hells, they tried.

The Wizard had Prepared Explosive Runes This Morning, so he chucked one on the ground. He set it to a command word, and moved back a bit. The barbarian rushed up to the front, and the cleric healed him when he got injured. The ninja ninjed a few of the creatures, but could only get one or two down per round - he did use all of his ki points on the exploding shruiken trick, but that only lasted so long. The wizard burned through his spell slots, hardly surprisingly, and ended up blasting away with a light crossbow. After about a hundred corpses lay before the party, they ran back and let the runes take a few more down. By this point, though, they were pretty much surrounded, with no spells to let them get out. There was no way to save them.

I had, by this point, told them several times that they should run away, but of course they didn't.

[Slipperychicken]

Mine is not very exciting. I set an army on the players, on the understanding that they run away during that scene - perhaps after doing something to hinder the invading hordes of level 1 aggressors (the party being a lv 6 cleric, wizard barbarian and ninja). There was also a small dragon involved, of CR 7 IIRC, which was not supposed even to reach the party.

What did they do? They turned and fought. I pointed out that there were over four thousand of these creatures, and they didn't have a cat in Cania's chance of beating them all. But hells, they tried.

The Wizard had Prepared Explosive Runes This Morning, so he chucked one on the ground. He set it to a command word, and moved back a bit. The barbarian rushed up to the front, and the cleric healed him when he got injured. The ninja ninjed a few of the creatures, but could only get one or two down per round - he did use all of his ki points on the exploding shruiken trick, but that only lasted so long. The wizard burned through his spell slots, hardly surprisingly, and ended up blasting away with a light crossbow. After about a hundred corpses lay before the party, they ran back and let the runes take a few more down. By this point, though, they were pretty much surrounded, with no spells to let them get out. There was no way to save them.

I had, by this point, told them several times that they should run away, but of course they didn't.

A true PC never backs down, never surrenders :smalltongue:

[Lord Vukodlak]

This did not happen to me as a DM but as a player the party is facing down the BBEG and his lieutenants, low on hp, low on spells, no escape and no way to retreat. The fate of the world hangs in the balance... so with my last action I break my staff of power the resulting damage kills me, the BBEG, his lieutenants, and the rest of the party. The damage obliterated the magical engine keeping his fortress in the air causing a small mountain to fall onto his endless army of the dead below.

[Immabozo]

Mine is not very exciting. I set an army on the players, on the understanding that they run away during that scene - perhaps after doing something to hinder the invading hordes of level 1 aggressors (the party being a lv 6 cleric, wizard barbarian and ninja). There was also a small dragon involved, of CR 7 IIRC, which was not supposed even to reach the party.

What did they do? They turned and fought. I pointed out that there were over four thousand of these creatures, and they didn't have a cat in Cania's chance of beating them all. But hells, they tried.

The Wizard had Prepared Explosive Runes This Morning, so he chucked one on the ground. He set it to a command word, and moved back a bit. The barbarian rushed up to the front, and the cleric healed him when he got injured. The ninja ninjed a few of the creatures, but could only get one or two down per round - he did use all of his ki points on the exploding shruiken trick, but that only lasted so long. The wizard burned through his spell slots, hardly surprisingly, and ended up blasting away with a light crossbow. After about a hundred corpses lay before the party, they ran back and let the runes take a few more down. By this point, though, they were pretty much surrounded, with no spells to let them get out. There was no way to save them.

I had, by this point, told them several times that they should run away, but of course they didn't.

That Barbarian needed War Hulk levels to hit 3 squares! But at level 6, couldn't have gotten there.

[Jormengand]

That Barbarian needed War Hulk levels to hit 3 squares! But at level 6, couldn't have gotten there.

There were four thousand of these things. By the end, the party had killed one hundred and seventy six, and the dragon was still intact. Even with another three or four levels, the party would have had a time of it.

[Immabozo]

There were four thousand of these things. By the end, the party had killed one hundred and seventy six, and the dragon was still intact. Even with another three or four levels, the party would have had a time of it.

I'm thinking of my specific build, in my campaign, but with my war hulk, I think I could have done it duo with my half dragon fighter compadre. But, we were both fairly optimized, as fighters go.

Granted the eventual and inevitable crits, we would have still had to be tactical about it, but I probably would have tried, but much later than level 6, granted, more like 10 or 12, haha. It would still be a very tough fight, but I'd want to try it, cause I love a challenge!

[Oko and Qailee]

SOmething that was almost a TPK.

Party was lvl 2, 4 players, under optimized because they're new.

The party is standing at one end of the bridge, across the bridge is a Gelatinous cube.

Above them is a gelatinous cube, slowly falling, the party gets on round to move.

They move ONTO the bridge so that they could efficiently be surrounded by two gelatinous cubes.

A little bit of DM fiat was required here... and the rouge did a cool "I climb on the side of the bridge to get around one of the cubes" so they didn't end up completely surrounded.

[Blackhawk748]

This did not happen to me as a DM but as a player the party is facing down the BBEG and his lieutenants, low on hp, low on spells, no escape and no way to retreat. The fate of the world hangs in the balance... so with my last action I break my staff of power the resulting damage kills me, the BBEG, his lieutenants, and the rest of the party. The damage obliterated the magical engine keeping his fortress in the air causing a small mountain to fall onto his endless army of the dead below.

If your gonna go, this is how ya do it.

[RogueDM]

I had a party nearly wipe once, while I was a player not the DM. And it was only "nearly" because or DM was merciful and nerfed the monster. I'll explain. Party is level... two or three; with a druid, a wizard, and two rogues obviously no one highly optimized 'cause most of us are new or a touch dim.

While out fighting beasts in the forest surrounding the village we encounter some low level aberrations. A few dice rolls later we figure out that the creatures are usually the advanced scouts for Beholders which are very powerful and dangerous. Returning to the village my rogue talks to the captain of the amazonian guards and warn her that some BBEMonsters are coming. Knowing that we are in no way-shape-or form ready for beholders my rogue suggests we skip town and come back when we are more awesome, or maybe appeal to the local regent for aid... But the party decides that the travel is going to be long and we should hang out and make some more money hunting in the wilds first.... A week of suggesting that we GTFO later Beholders attack the village, kill everyone who stands in their way, and send the party scurrying before them on freshly stolen horses (and a war pig). Encountered one Beholder in our path, but the amazons had destroyed most of its eyes and beat it pretty badly before being killed. A few good rolls and an "I told you so" later we were leaving an epic defeat in our wake. Surprise: The story does not wait for its characters to finish faffing about.

[Immabozo]

I was DMing for a group with one player who was bafflingly good at thinking outside the box and coming up with amazingly good solutions.

That's why his stunningly abysmal tactics one day were so much more so.

There is a major tournament coming up and my players want to raise money to enter (instead of being "sponsored") so they ask me for side missions for money. Their first mission is to send a covert message to a local tribe of Frost Giants and somehow get them to leave (level 7 gestalt, 2 PCs, level 7 sorcerer//rogue and a half dragon, dragon disciple//something and the third player had work, they weren't doing it by force). They came up with a great tactic, no clue why it changed, but it started out how I would have done it, but quickly changed.

After seeing patrols and sneaking past several, they get into 1 of 5 "lookout" camps surrounding the main structure which was mid being built. Massive tribe, few hundred at least. In the camp is one frost giant - a female, she's cooking. They sneak behind a tent and slip underneath the cloth wall and find a baby frost giant. they decide to CDG the baby, which it almost survived, coming down to the fort save, which it failed by 1 or 2.

They then covered the back wall of the tent in oil and then looked around, found a fancy foot locker and were futzing with how to open it. I warned them that they could tell the food was almost done. They continued trying to open the footlocker, when the mother comes in to check on her baby (and feed it), to find her baby dead. Well, the mother enters a frenzy (seems an appropriate class feature for a mother finding her dead baby) and the players slip out the side of the tent, lighting it on fire as they go. So the mother charges them and rips through the cloth wall and engages them. The accelerant did its job and the tent goes WHOOSH!

But they stood there fighting, right next to the flaming tent. To make matters worse, the half dragon has a light breath weapon, which he uses, blinding both the other player and the giant and yet another thing telling the giants "over here".

And then the blinded mother did just that, yelled "over here". But they kept fighting... in the same spot. I warned them that more giants would be joining the fight.

This one frost giant mother was getting 1 attack per round... with a frying pan... and had no armor and the fight still took at least 10 rounds and she still had about 1/4 health.

So finally, the first giant shows up, on the other side of the map "He is armored, he does have a weapon and is moving very fast. He will be here next turn."

So what do they do? Keep fighting.

Giant uses full move to reach them, following turn gets full attacks. The 2D4 + str frying pan, 1 attack per round, hitting in the high teens to low 20s, suddenly looked pathetic next to (three attacks... all hit... 3D6 +str x1.5... take 74 damage... and three more giants show up on the edge of the map, they will be here next turn."

Finally, they got the message. One pops invisibility and flies away. The other has no escape plan other then running. "Full move is x4, right? I move 120 feet! no problem!"

"Your pursuers move 160 feet, in addition, the giants in the patrols you had past, are now running toward you, in the direction you are running."

Following week, he had a new character. I think he finally learned the lesson of why spells and options are better than that str and con score that is just so high

[Darth Stabber]

So what do they do? Keep fighting.

When push come to shove, you've got to do what you love, even if it's not a good idea!

[Spuddles]

Winning D&D as a gm doesn't involve killing characters, it involves killing player's souls.

Can I get an amen!

[Immabozo]

When push come to shove, you've got to do what you love, even if it's not a good idea!

All too true.


Winning D&D as a gm doesn't involve killing characters, it involves killing player's souls.

What if, as a player, I crushed, killed, mutilated, urinated on and then buried my DM's soul? Did I win?

[CRtwenty]

All too true.



What if, as a player, I crushed, killed, mutilated, urinated on and then buried my DM's soul? Did I win?

No, you just taught him to take the gloves off next time. :smallbiggrin:

[Telok]

I've gotten close to TPKs a couple times in my current game and I think I'm aiming for another this weekend.

First: The party was level 7, five characters including an AC35 cleric, warblade, psychic warrior, ranger/pyrokineticist, and a sorcerer. There is a magic university run by two 15th level wizards, taught by six level 9 casters (including a priest), and having sixty students of 1st to 5th level. When a student advances in level they graduate to the next class by making a magic item. When a 5th level student graduates from the college they have to make a permanent magic item. The university gets raw materials at bulk discount rates and sells the magic items for funding. At any time there are three students looking for "final projects" to graduate and four more students ready to make stuff in order to advance. The players know this.

Two days travel from the university is a volcano with a tribe of friendly salamanders who make rings of fire resistance with a price discount. The players go to them to buy one but the salamanders don't want gold. They want rings of cold resistance, adamantine, or devil hearts. They players choose devil hearts and are told to come back with ten "nice plump, juicy ones." They are told there is a devil nest two days away across a lake. Anyone with Kn:History knows that 120 years ago there was a massive battle there when an army of spell casters attacked a devil fortress that was run by a pit fiend and had a natural planar rift to Hell in it. None of the characters have Kn:History. (The pit fiend is imprisoned and the rift is extremely unstable now.)

The university, volcano, and devil fortress are in a nice triangle, each one is two days of travel away from the others. The players choose to go straight to the devil fortress. The sorcerer does not know See Invisible, nobody has good/iron/silver weapons, there is no teleportation denial available.

The party gets to the fortress. Obsidian walls eighty feet high and twenty feet thick with invisible Imp patrols and Hellcat guards outside. Huge breaches in the wall, thirty feet across and filled with rubble, there are Bearded Devils and Chain Devils inside. A two hundred foot long courtyard/killing zone with more devils in the ruins of the fortress keep keeping watch. The devils, having been alerted to the presence of adventurers when they were still two miles away, let the party get to the breach in the wall and hit them with an ambush.

Two Hellcats, four Chain Devils, ten Imps start the fun. Then three Bearded Devils and a Bone Devil teleport in on the second round. The psychic warrior used Ectoplasmic Form to escape while the sorcerer flew off on his hippogriff familiar, both had single digit HP and were out of spells/PP. Much loot was lost and thye Imps harassed the two survivors for miles by trying to drop rocks on them.

Currently the party is level 10 and composed of the psychic warrior, a new evocation/fire sorcerer (different player), a ranged rogue, warforged artificer (recent addition, quite undergeared right now), and a ninja. They are attempting the crypt of a lich. They know it's a lich. The mage ho sent them on this quest told them the liche's name and warned them that he was nasty and smart. The warforged knew the lich by reputation before he was a lich. The lich was the Lord High Necromancer of the Imperial Mages Guild before he disappeared and died. He is known (and the players know) to have pioneered a method to apply humanoid-only undead templates to non-humanoid monsters, making vampire owls and wight hydras. He has had books written about him.

The party was a single days' travel from a king's semi-public library run by a 12th level wizard. They were four days' travel from the magic university. There were 9th level wizards and priests at the town they were in. They set out for the crypt with zero preparation and did not tell anyone where they were going or what they were doing. They have no means of specifically combating incorporeal foes, no means of restoring lost levels or drained attributes, and no specific anti-undead abilities. Well not quite no anti-undead stuff, the psi-war has a lesser crystal of true death. That's it besided generic magic weapons.

Currently they have gone through the top layer of the crypt. They did not investigate the three sealed burial chambers, they did not search anywhere, they have cast no divination spells. They came to an eighty foot diameter vertical shaft going up and down beyond the limits of thier sight (they are using Light cantrips) that is crossed by a three foot wide stone bridge, wet with dripping water. The psychic warrior has started across it carrying an artifact sword (anti-giant two handed) and artifact shield (+5 heavy that casts Revifiy at the cost of two +s, e.g. after one Revifiy it is a +3 shield).

There is a Living Spell Scintillating Pattern hovering 100 feet above and an Evolved Vampire Giant Octopus in a lake 300 feet below. Plus the middle ten feet of the bridge is an illusion with a five foot high invisible wall on the other side. I fear much deathyness.

They could have learned about the lich using Living Spells and 8th level spells at any library or from some of the other casters in the setting. They have enough loot and money to over gear the artificer and buy lots of potions and scrolls. They could have learned that the lich is a specialized Enchanter who practiced necromancy as a hobby. Nothing.

[Sith_Happens]

Snip

A moment of silence for the billions of brain cells abandoned by their owners.

[Threadnaught]

A God of Destruction I tricked my players into releasing. A Living Weapon consisting of 20 cubic feet of animated, shape shifting Adamantine, built to defeat the God of Destruction. A Demilich God of Death who keeps the Living Weapon imprisoned, as it is uncontrollable.

Players know that they have to get through the Demilich's army and residence on their way to the Living Weapon and they know that it fought the heroes who sealed the God of Destruction. AKA the guys who made it.

Players aren't suspicious at all when the find the dead city, completely deserted. Even the deep vaults seem abandoned. They trip an alarm and the God of Death arrives to let them know that they will be killed for their betrayal (he asked them to kill the rest of the surviving heroes) as soon as they return to the dead city. The Bard had been abusing Ranks in Diplomacy and up until this point, had constantly whined about how I used The Giant's fix and "made Diplomacy worthless."

They press onward, further down into the deep vaults where they encounter the Living Weapon in a room that is mostly bare, the only light coming from the creature and a circle of vases on pedestals surrounding the creature and most of the room, please not that it cannot interact with the vases/seals or move beyond them. The Living Weapon immediately starts attacking them and is kicking their asses, so they decide to run. However, they're trying to move past one of the vases on their way out and the Bard just avoids knocking one of the seals off it's pedestal.

Of course, he decides to pick up and drop the vase, the Living Weapon starts attacking them again and begins to give chase as they run. A whole bunch (an army) of Undead now stand between them and the exit. They mostly avoid them, with the Living Weapon in hot pursuit. When they reach the dead city the Demilich is there waiting for them and it has heard the pounding from below, so it realizes the Living Weapon has been freed. Now they finally decide to try talking their way out, he's become their Nemesis and they're offering a Horrible reward. No seriously, the actual offer was "If you let us go, we won't destroy you for now."

So the Demilich killed them in two rounds. That was the end of the Rranger and (that *******) Bard.


They were treated to the image of a Monk who had helped them earlier (and generally been more effective) fighting the God of Destruction, the God of Death and the Living Weapon in a four way free for all. The God of Destruction won and the world ended.


Just try telling someone who's pointing a gun at you "If you don't shoot me, I'll wait a while before killing you." That's a fantastic way to get shot. :smallamused:

[SiuiS]

They were already injured when crossing the bridge.

Hitting water is not like hitting an air cushion...it is like slamming into concrete due to surface tension.

There are actual rules for falling into water. I recall something about no lethal damage? Why didn't that come up?

[Darth Stabber]

What if, as a player, I crushed, killed, mutilated, urinated on and then buried my DM's soul? Did I win?

You've hit on what makes a good GM, soullessness! A good GM's soul has either already been crushed, or never existed in the first place. The act of a GM crushing player souls is a means of creating the nex generation of good GMs.

[IncoherentEssay]

There are actual rules for falling into water. I recall something about no lethal damage? Why didn't that come up?

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling): the first 20ft don't count, the next 20ft are non-lethal and after that it's business as usual.
That is for falling onto water, successfully diving into water negates all damage but is a DC (15 + 5 per 50ft of dive) Swim or Tumble check and requires 10ft of water depth for every 30ft of fall to be negated.

So even if the dive check wasn't practically impossible (optimized skills/nat.20 autosuccess houserule) they would still need 140ft+ of depth to negate any of the damage (assuming partial negation even happens).
So by the books they take either 20d6 or 16d6 + 2d3 nl depending on whether the damageless distance still counts for the 200ft/20d6 cap.
Wouldn't make much of difference.

Edit: well, the rogue might have survived, depending on: how far he fell before the stupidity with the grappling hook, how good his tumble was, how much hp he had left and how deep the river was. Pretty much all of those would need to be in his favor to survive though.

I don't have any TPKs-i-was-blamed-for to contribute. My group knows perfectly well that i don't pull punches or grant plot armor, so they have the common sense to run when a fight turns bad :smallbiggrin:.

[Blackhawk748]

They were treated to the image of a Monk who had helped them earlier (and generally been more effective) fighting the God of Destruction, the God of Death and the Living Weapon in a four way free for all. The God of Destruction won and the world ended.


I love it when monks get to be badass

[Immabozo]

You've hit on what makes a good GM, soullessness! A good GM's soul has either already been crushed, or never existed in the first place. The act of a GM crushing player souls is a means of creating the nex generation of good GMs.

Does this mean I actually made my horrifically bad DM, good?

[Mystia]

The most remarkable one was the one which actually amazed me the most, honestly.
Because of several circumstances, the party was split - the strongest (aka most optimized) PC was facing alone the fiend that was the ruler of the dungeon they were in, while the others were frantically trying to get to him. A few rounds of combat, the fiend is a bit wounded, but the PC is nearly dead. I like to think that I'm a kind DM, because I really have pity of killing my players unless the death is too unavoidable, since I hate seeing how sad they get. But they don't know it, so you see, that one PC was very desperate. Death is a big deal in our setting, after all.
So, the sadistic fiend wastes his turn to say he is "going to enjoy killing him slowly", even though talking is a free action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction) (exactly, this was me giving the PC yet more chances to get away, I mean there were exits in the room after all!). What does he do? But of course - surrender to the fiend, kneel and swear eternal servitude to him in exchange for survival!
... What.
Then, having to somehow work with this, the game proceeds. The fiend grafts the PC with some fiendish wings and skin (He just made his enemy stronger with no guarantee of his servitude?... like I said, I am kind.) The fiend did imply that it was impossible for him to disobey his orders or he'd die, but it was obviously a bluff. Soon, the rest of the party arrives at the arena, and find themselves facing that one PC. Rejoice, now, he'd instantly turn to his foolish "master", charge with his friends in a great boss fight, and teach the fiend that not only spawns from the depths of Baalor can lie and deceive, and that true bonds of friendship are never broken, not even before death threats and whatnot, even while mockingly thanking him for the cool power ups.
Is what I wish had happened.
Instead, he slaughters the whole party.
Yes. He actually did that. All while I just watched the bloodbath, dazed.
I mean, what.
He won the initiative. Dominated the 2nd highest DPS in the party into fighting for him on the first try, and dispelled all buffs the cleric had up. The cleric went down before he got a single turn, once the dominatee went Full Attack on him. Then a few rounds of struggle, and the dominated one also strikes down the arcane archer. Meanwhile, the tank epicly fails his Fort save against paralysis (low DC, he had high saves, could succeed even with a 2. Still rolled a 1.) and is coup de grace'd in the next round. The last man standing is a plain-ish ordained champion wielding two longswords. He fought valiantly, but lost nonetheless, overwhelmed.
Despite blaming both me and the player a bit after all that, thankfully no one has hard feelings, somehow, probably because everyone lost their characters in the end (the killer turned into a NPC). But everything that has happened still amazes me even nowadays. I still have no idea if the player roleplays that hard, or if he was just murderous...
Oh, goddess. Well, happens, I guess.
Edit: Just removing a few grammar mistakes.

[kabreras]

How can a druid or a wizard die of that ?

Or anyone really by leve 10 if you cant cast feather fall you have a ring of it somewhere !

A druid could have shapeshifted to a bird and the wizard could just have DDd ou there or cast featherfall on everyone.

They decerved to die

[Karoht]

Okay, so we end up in Orcus's realm somehow. We decided a tactical retreat was in order, like a smart little party. We found a way to exit the realm, and left. We didn't realize that if we did so, a pair of Mariliths would follow for each person who left. And teleport to our location.

Now, this was a pretty tough party. And we were handling the mariliths just fine. And then...

Barbarian: Instead of reliably killing two of them per round, I'm going to grapple one. No reason.
Monk: Even though I've been reliably killing one and nearly killing a second every round, I'm going to run the crap away. No reason.
Rogue: Even though my trap/turret can potentially kill one every round, and they have no way to get to me, and even if they did my Troll pet will start turning them into grape jelly, I'm also going to run away. No reason.
Summoner: I'm hiding in a box behind a waterfall. My pet? He's hiding there too. Even though it was matching the Barbarian for damage. No reason.

Sorcerer (me): Um? Guys? Where did you go? We were winning!
Barbarian: Oh, am I still grappling? Yeah no. *leaves*

Sorcerer: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

I kept them busy for a few rounds, I had them on the ropes until they all decided to spam their Blade Barrier SLA to the point where I was forced out of my fog cloud, at which point they nearly murdered me (I got really really lucky with Blink and managed to live), then I planeshifted out.

Rest of the party: What the hell Sorcerer? You almost got us killed!
Sorcerer: Bwah?


I don't play with that group anymore. :smallmad:

[ArcturusV]

I suppose the saddest TPK I ever got blamed for?

Party was in this town. There were rumors of a dragon off some ways away (But close enough that this would be the logical basis for an expedition to slay the dragon). Dragon was meant for some time later. But I wanted to set the ground work. Mention rumors of this ancient, powerful dragon. Have occasional stories trickle through the taverns about how Village X just got flattened by this dragon, etc. It wasn't the BBEG of the Campaign, but it was going to be a threat that had to be dealt with before the BBEG could be (The BBEG was somewhat keeping the dragon in check as they feared one another or the resources it would take if they came into full conflict).

So I'm just planting vague rumors of this dragon as some ground work. Party is level 5 and they're hearing about this ancient dragon. One of the party members goes "Oh... if it's really old it probably has a lot of cool magic gear and would help us kill the BBEG!", talks the rest of his party into it.

Even though the NPCs are looking at these level 5 characters, shaking their heads, and warning them that this dragon is old, powerful, cunning, and shouldn't be taken lightly. I even tell them OOCily, pull them aside, and say this is a really bad idea.

They ignore it.

So after a long trek, they get into this dragon's lair. He lets them in as he has about zero fear of these humanoids. I figure I'll just let the dragon put some fear into them, maybe give them a quest and turn them into cat's paws for the dragon.

... even though the dragon is awake, alert, and starting to talk at them the party just screams out "I CHARGE-" "I CAST-" "I SHOOT-" etc.

So they roll initiative. Don't even really scratch the dragon. Dragon decides to show them how stupid they're being. I roll it's weakest attack... crit... kill the guy outright.

... rather than running they decide they HAVE to kill the dragon to survive. And keep fighting. Dragon finally says "Screw this" and just murders them in two rounds.

Then I got the complaints about how I cheated them, TPKed them on purpose, and should let them mulligan and rewind the game clock 10 minutes...

Second TPK I got blamed for that potentially wasn't my fault?:

I had been running two campaigns with this group. And they got used to me for the most part, and my style. But I always had to NPC a cleric for them as no one wanted to play a Cleric/Divine caster, they all demanded that I NPC one, and were even willing to shell out gold to hire one. I got kinda tired of it.

So we start a new campaign. I don't tell them anything about it other than the fact that I'm not going to NPC any extra hirelings/party members for them, not going to ask for or enforce any idea of Party Balance, play what you want, starting from level 1. Meanwhile I start crafting on an Undead Apocalypse sort of campaign.

Now usually my campaigns with this group proved a few things for them. One, I didn't run with random Enchantment=No, Illusion=No buttons. So people who played Enchanters or Illusionists were actually pretty powerful in my games. I also ran games where enemies were primarily humanoids, with other creature types being about 10% of the enemies (And only that high because of things like Animal Companions, Mounts, and Familiars among enemies).

They show up to the game with a Bard, a Sorcerer (Who picked mostly Enchantments), an Illusionist, and an Enchanter. I looked over their sheets, shrugged, and handed them back without saying a word.

As the game starts, undead start to show up. Everyone realizes they're up the river as they don't have any spells that are really effective against Undead, and no one wants to go into melee with them. So they start running. Everywhere they run, more undead. Finally they get herded to the "Safehouse" I had intended for the campaign at that point. A local temple to a good aligned god, which was under siege but dusting the undead that tried to come after it.

They saw all the undead around the place, and somehow ignored the fact that undead were being dusted, and several had obviously been killed by the temple, and decide there is no way the Temple is safe, and they can't find help there.

So racking their brains they decide to go into the Graveyard and seal themselves up in a Mausoleum until they can rest and perhaps pick some more effective spells. Never seemed to occur to them that it was near sunrise, and as they went to the Graveyard that other things were moving towards the Graveyard.

So they hole up in a Mausoleum which was the home of a Vampire coming back to escape from the Sun.

Now the second? I admit some blame for that. I didn't adapt my campaign for the party at all. Then again, that was kinda a point, as I was tired of NPCing the answer to all their problems all the time (My various clerics and such I NPCed for them solved like 70% of the problem, even if my players didn't realize it). So yeah, partly my fault. They blamed me for it. They could have done better, payed more attention to some of the clues I dropped. And I could have reworked it so the Graveyard wasn't unhallowed and home to the Sunlight Weakness undead like Vampires...

[navar100]

I have only been in one TPK, as a player, about 21 years ago for a 2E game in college. Two players blamed me for it. I was playing a cleric, and I had the audacity to cast spells that were not Cure Light Wounds and even swung my staff as an attack for a round or two. They literally, yes literally, yelled at me the following day in the Student Union blaming me for the whole clusterfudge and stopped being my friends. Only the passage of time if we see each other at a convention held at our alma mater and are now grown-ups have we been able to be cordial to each other for a conversation.

The DM had no issue with me. We remained friends, and I continued to play in his games until I graduated. He still rates as my favorite DM.

[Sith_Happens]

I have only been in one TPK, as a player, about 21 years ago for a 2E game in college. Two players blamed me for it. I was playing a cleric, and I had the audacity to cast spells that were not Cure Light Wounds and even swung my staff as an attack for a round or two. They literally, yes literally, yelled at me the following day in the Student Union blaming me for the whole clusterfudge and stopped being my friends. Only the passage of time if we see each other at a convention held at our alma mater and are now grown-ups have we been able to be cordial to each other for a conversation.

The DM had no issue with me. We remained friends, and I continued to play in his games until I graduated. He still rates as my favorite DM.

How'd the TPK happen?

[hoverfrog]

This did not happen to me as a DM but as a player the party is facing down the BBEG and his lieutenants, low on hp, low on spells, no escape and no way to retreat. The fate of the world hangs in the balance... so with my last action I break my staff of power the resulting damage kills me, the BBEG, his lieutenants, and the rest of the party. The damage obliterated the magical engine keeping his fortress in the air causing a small mountain to fall onto his endless army of the dead below.I've been a player in a TPK and this is just the sort of way that you want to end a campaign. Our story was similar, huge enemy army, superpowerful monsters and our 17th level party against them. We knew we didn't have a hope but there was nowhere to run to, not even other planes. This was our final battle. Funnily enough it ended with the wizard breaking his staff of power too.

[navar100]

How'd the TPK happen?

As far as I can tell just damage attrition. We were around 6th level, I know my character was, fighting a white dragon (I don't know age category). I did cast some Cure Light Wounds spells, but also buffs like Bless and Protection From Evil and I think an attack spell or two. It's been a long while. During the combat I never got the impression the party did anything wrong, unless hindsight says I don't recall us considering retreating when the fight started to go bad for us. A week later the DM did say he'd change the outcome to just have us be captured after being "knocked out" via Death's Door so that we could play another party to rescue our characters, but the campaign was disbanded.

[Darth Stabber]

Does this mean I actually made my horrifically bad DM, good?

You've at least moved him a step in the right direction.

There are other ways to help. If I am playing in a game with a newb DM, I tend to play a nuclear deterrent character. I keep my various PO tricks hidden until they go a little too far and blast down their overblown monster. Batman wizards, clerics, and druids are good for this sort of play.

Example:
Wizard(transmuter)/warweaver/iot7fv/archmage can keep an obscene amount of power hidden for a rainy day. Warweaver makes spells go further, meaning you can keep a couple of rocket launchers hidden in your back pocket.


If you do this well enough, even your group will underestimate how much you are contributing. I did this once in the past with a newish group, and they were constantly on me for "not contributing enough" or "sucking", and I just told them that my buff spells were helping more than they thought. So one fight my character was in another room identifying a magic item, while they went to the next room, thinking I wasn't going to be that useful. The encounter was pretty standard for what we hd been fighting that level (in fact it was nearly identical to the room we had just finished, one was a wartroll fighter, the other a wartroll barbarian), and what they thought would be a cakewalk ended in a dead barbarian (not the troll) and rogue (I failed the listen check to hear the fighting), and only the cleric survived (by running away). Turns out that without haste, enlarge person, and a knowledge check to tell them to use fire, they can't fight near as well as they thought.

I later enter the room with the monster (war troll barbarian) with spectral hand and red veil up, smack him with a shivering touch, and we have a troll roast. After that they asked why I didn't do stuff like that more often, I said "only a vainglorious and/or stupid wizard puts himself in the line of fire, when he could instead aid those who are already going to do so". They never questioned my methods again.

[Maginomicon]

If you do this well enough, even your group will underestimate how much you are contributing. I did this once in the past with a newish group, and they were constantly on me for "not contributing enough" or "sucking", and I just told them that my buff spells were helping more than they thought. So one fight my character was in another room identifying a magic item, while they went to the next room, thinking I wasn't going to be that useful. The encounter was pretty standard for what we hd been fighting that level (in fact it was nearly identical to the room we had just finished, one was a wartroll fighter, the other a wartroll barbarian), and what they thought would be a cakewalk ended in a dead barbarian (not the troll) and rogue (I failed the listen check to hear the fighting), and only the cleric survived (by running away). Turns out that without haste, enlarge person, and a knowledge check to tell them to use fire, they can't fight near as well as they thought.

I later enter the room with the monster (war troll barbarian) with spectral hand and red veil up, smack him with a shivering touch, and we have a troll roast. After that they asked why I didn't do stuff like that more often, I said "only a vainglorious and/or stupid wizard puts himself in the line of fire, when he could instead aid those who are already going to do so". They never questioned my methods again.
Damn straight. This is exactly how it should go down.