View Full Version : Index MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 07:13 PM
WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for
ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 300 pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous five) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.
For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4
If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.
[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.
Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7252), so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.
Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.
Notes:
Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.
Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:
Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed
RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:
I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.
Xykon's First look at MitD:
:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"
Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:
:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."
Nature of the darkness around MitD:
Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?
Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subejcts of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O'Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and thier gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14897754&postcount=428).
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Section 1d: The Tower SceneIt is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10268123&postcount=1294), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10273181&postcount=1311) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10276066&postcount=1314).
Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.
This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.
The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:
It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.
The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).
From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:
{TABLE]Lawful Evil: Baatezu/Devils|Lawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, Modrons|Lawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/Daemons|True Neutral: Rilmani|Neutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/Demons|Chaotic Neutral: Slaadi|Chaotic Good: Eladrin[/TABLE]
Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).
However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.
Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.
Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seemto suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitDThere have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.
On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).
On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1j: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.
On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.
As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Version History
7.0 Up to date to end of Previous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253731) thread
7.6 Up to date to bottom of page 30
7.8 Up to date to bottom of page 40
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 07:15 PM
Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.
From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful". It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA 1 had the same bonus as a good one with CHA 19
BodyRedCloak suggest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
DietMitD is almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:
He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)
GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O'Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head
Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full
LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. He also leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker). The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).
Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.
In the colouring book, he is seen holding umbrella, crayons and paper, suggesting he may have two prehensile appendages.
In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the stomp suggests he is either bipedal and crouched over, or quadrupedal.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large).
Take into account:
Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
He's probably taller than a kobold:
Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O'chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))
Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower in nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into Account:
If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.
DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into Account:
It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)
Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:
Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wreck Earth (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/wrack-earth--2982/)
KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O'Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O'Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O'Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:
Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O'Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D
Take into Account:
MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"
PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:
Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. But at the circus, he has to rock his box to get to the stew. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O'Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way
RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O'Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope
Speechthe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)
This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).
It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC is RC double crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.
Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following:
- NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
- NOT Ooze (has a body)
- NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
- NOT Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR
Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:
He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes
DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)
Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.
Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:
MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be
Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters and RedCloak (see Section 1a) have claimed to know what he is, while what looks like a wizard in the circus audience admitted he'd never seen anything like it. MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is.
It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding tempaltes, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.
Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will
*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.
*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.
The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:
Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.
Cons:
No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).
Templated/Mixed lineage CreatureA whole range of possibilities, it suggests MitD is a stack of Templates rather than a specific monster type.
Pros: Can be templated to have:
Teleportation
Psionics
Earthquake
Unnerving Gaze
Cons:
No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these"
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents
Proposed combinations:
half giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai
Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg
Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 18 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")
ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control
PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 07:16 PM
Section 3: Proposed Ideas
Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).
Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://community.wizards.com/forum/other-published-worlds/threads/998416)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication
Cons:
Huge
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich.
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:
Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")
Cons:
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)
Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:
CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Cons:
Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.
Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box.
Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk. Unless, that is, slaads usually talk like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) (but this is probably Rule of Funny)
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.
Uvuudaum (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html#uvuudaum)Pros:
greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.
Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.
Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:
If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.
GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold
Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite, nor need to sleep.
Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.
Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Diawolf
Domo-kun
Father (KND)
FF Black Mage
FF Red Mage
Godzilla & pals
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump
Kirby
My Little Pony
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
SnorlaxA great fit, since "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes", is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping. It also grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11''). Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
Shadow (from Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (from Megami Tensei)
Skull (from PvP)
Tonberri
Vatch (from Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (from Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (from Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi
Zoidberg
Section 3d: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:
28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)
Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.
Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells
Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:
Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door
Cons:
Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)
Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:
Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.
Cons:
Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children
Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how somone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
CuatlCannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough), since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:
Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.
Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:
Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)
Cons:
Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school
Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:
Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)
Cons:
Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.
Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:
Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish
Fairly powerful
Cons: Too big
No parent
Unlikely to change morality (since it is a denizen of a morality plane)
Low CR
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gozilla (& family)Too big, unclear how they account for the escape. Copyright issues possible
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)Too many eyes, and unclear how it accounts for the escape.
GrendelUnclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength, defences, earthquake ability.
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being gargantuan, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength bellow appropriate amount. Psionic powers could explain the earthquake, but not the tower scene.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accoutns for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
JaberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jaberwocky is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:
High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.
Cons:
Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)
King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lamassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O'Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:
Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk
Cons:
Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish
Cons:
Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.
Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape
Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:
Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O'Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.
Section 3e: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)
Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):
A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.
We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 07:17 PM
Section 4: Thread Information
Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:
CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:
Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread
What I can't do
I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.
Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.
In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.
Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).
The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post (usually at the end of every page divisible by 10), I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.
For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request the voting to happen, you need the normal +2 votes.
Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:
Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.
Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:
Semi-public vote: votes will be PM'ed to me, the curator, to prevent the thread from being spammed by multiple short "vote for X" posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping. To prevent fraud, please be ready to reaffirm your vote if someone else PMs you to ask about it.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting (and pithy name, if you can think of one).
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.
Section 4c: FAQ
Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.
If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).
If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.
For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:
Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.
Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and excepts us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 07:18 PM
(Post Reserved for Future Use)
Savannah
2013-07-17, 07:53 PM
Complete list of MitD strips
Key:
Purple = strips prior to Rich knowing what the MitD is (ends "around strip # 100")
Italics = MitD mentioned but does not appear
Start of Darkness
Rainforest, 29 years ago
Page 49 MitD captured
Page 50 SBGH surprised MitD can talk, is in this part of the world
Circus (3 years ago)
Page 83 MitD likes stew, is about to be revealed
Page 84 CIRCUS SCENE. It's hard for MitD to be looked at by a lot of people at once
Page 85 MitD knows Right-Eye's family, playing with toys
Page 88 MitD meets Redcloak, Redcloak says he could escape if he wanted to
Page 89 Redcloak is going to free MitD
Page 90-95 Breaking MitD out of the circus
Page 96 Xykon meets MitD, :xykon:: "You sure are one ugly sumbitch", MitD can be mind-controlled
Taking Dungeon of Dorukan (6 months ago)
Page 100-101,
103, 105,
107, 109 MitD given control of zombies to attack tower, can't remember what to do, gets tacos instead
Page 110 MitD being carried into dungeon
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
Introductions
23 Meanwhile... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html)
MitD's first appearance, he wants out of the shadows
37 Evil, But Cost-Effective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html)
Watching Roy set off the trapped door
47 But is it High Definition? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html)
Team Evil scrying on Order of the Stick/Linear Guild, MitD wants to watch Belkar and Yikyik fighting
82 Beats Pay-Per-View (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html)
Eating popcorn and watching Durkon and Hilgya have sex. MitD is (currently) in magical darkness
The Gates
85b A High Turnover Career
Panel 8: Xykon says MitD whines a lot
95 Dead Men Tell Tales (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html)
Panel 3: Redcloak says MitD is attracting more demon-roaches
96 Gate? What Gate? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html)
MitD can't see/doesn't recognize as gate/instantly forgets ginormous gate.
97 Evil Plans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)
Joining in a hearty evil villain laugh.
Fighting the Order
103 Practice Makes Perfect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html)
MitD practicing for his big reveal
105 Hordes of Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)
MitD waiting behind the throne
106 A Sure Bet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)
Waiting, :mitd:: "Wait, what gate?"
109 Tensions Rise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html)
Still waiting
110 Revenge is Best Served Really Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)
Ditto
113 Memories, Like the Edges of My Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html)
Ditto
114 Exciting Climax (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)
MitD about to jump out of the shadows
117 Delayed Gratification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html)
Wants to kill and eat the Order
120 The End of the Beginning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)
Fleeing through tunnel with Redcloak
No Cure for the Paladin Blues
Recap
??
MitD appears briefly in Elan's finger puppet recap of the events of the previous book
??
MitD is given a brief introduction on the Cast of Characters
Recruiting the hobgoblins
[/tr]
147 The Light at the End of the Tunnel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html)
MitD wants to hold Xykon's phylacetry but can't because he might break it. Excited to get out of the shadows. Introduction of pink umbrella.
148 Hobgoblins and You (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)
Grumbling about umbrella
149 Cultural Differences (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)
Watching Redcloak become hobgoblin supreme leader.
Retaking Xykon's tower
[/tr]
190 A Lesson in Resource Management (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html)
MitD respects how Redcloak isn't going to send hobgoblins to their deaths, despite hating them
191 Dungeon Real Estate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)
MitD scared to go into Xykon's old tower, :xykon:"there's nothing in there any scarier than you - Correction: any scarier than you SHOULD be."
192 Everything Sits Better on a Ritz (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)
Outside Xykon's tower
194 You Light Up My Life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html)
MitD wants lantern archons to hit him with their light attacks
194a Quit Dragon My Heart Around
Xykon and Redcloak can't see MitD - he's permanently shrouded in magical darkness according to Redcloak
194b Post-Dragon
Reading a pamphlet from the forces of good
195 Book Nook (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html)
Watching while Redcloak and Xykon search for Serini's diary
196 The Diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)
Plot exposition for Xykon's plan, :mitd: "What "gate" do you guys keep talking about?"
Preparing to march
[/tr]
299 A Calling Missed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html)
MitD wants to help, according to Redcloack the only way he can help zombify monsters is to volunteer as raw materials or gain five levels in cleric overnight
War and XPs
Recap & Bonus
??
MitD is mentioned on the Cast of Characters page
??
MitD mentioned in passing in Vaarsuvius' plot recap
Round 4 commentary bonus cartoon
MitD is too tall to be a kobold
Marching
331 For the Future (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)
MitD marching with the hobgoblins
The Tower
368 All Along the Watchtower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)
MitD says he eats to fill the loneliness
369 Fight! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)
Cheering Redcloak against Miko
371 The Road to Heck (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)
Watching Redcloak, Xykon and Miko talk
373 Caged (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html)
MitD is waiting for Miko after she escapes
374 Black and Blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
TOWER SCENE, Miko's attacks just tickle MitD, who can hit the lightest competition
375 Undeliverable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)
MitD eats the letter Miko was carrying, gets papercut on his tongue
376 All Too Easy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html)
Xykon left MitD to guard Miko so that she would be sure to escape
Preparing the Attack
414 Noble is Goodble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)
MitD is playing yahtzee with Xykon and Redcloak
415 Idiot Box (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)
Watching TeeVo with Xykon and Redcloak, :mitd:: "Gate?"
415a Hey, What's Wrong with Crayons?
MitD drew tactical plan, wants to smash through Azure City walls
Battle of Azure City
[/td]
[/tr]
422 March to War (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html)
MitD shocked that Redcloak is bossing "Xykon" around
426 Three of a Kind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html)
Hanging out in the back with Redcloak and "Xykon", doesn't understand why there are three "Xykons"
428 It Takes a Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)
Still hanging out in the back
431 My Three Xykons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html)
MitD still doesn't get the multiple Xykons, even after Redcloak explains it
447 Guarding the Sapphire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html)
In the back with Redcloak
450 Wands Are for Suckers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html)
MitD visible as tiny dot in back with Redcloak
451 Change of Direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)
Wants to devour someone and get a new pet to ride
463 Shattered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html)
Having a tea party when O-Chul drops in
474 The Body Snatcher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html)
MitD having a tea party with O-Chul and Roy's corpse; Belkar tracking MitD :belkar:: tracks are weird, definitely not hobgoblin or undead Roy
475 Crashing the Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)
Belkar and Haley try to take O-Chul and Roy's corpse back from MitD; MitD yells loud enough to shake the ground and blow hair/cloaks back, is excited to eat moldy cheeseburgers, thinks he's seen Haley and Belkar somewhere before
476 I Don't Suppose You Have Any Nutmeg? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html)
MitD remembers he was supposed to devour Haley and Belkar
477 Shock and Awwwwww (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)
MitD can't decide if he should devour Haley and Belkar now, doesn't even notice a full attack from Belkar, gives a tiny stomp and creates a massive earthquake (:mitd:: "Wow! I didn't know I could do that!!") after which he is suddenly tired
484 At the End of the Day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)
[td]MitD dragging O-Chul into Azure City
Don't Split the Party
[tr]
Introduction
??
MitD appears on Cast of Characters page
Team Evil and O'Chul
541 He's a Gamblin' Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html)
MitD betting on O'Chul escaping and living happily ever after with monopoly money
543 Shhh! Principal's Coming! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)
MidD doesn't understand why hoping really hard didn't save O'Chul
549 Grueling Ordeal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html)
MitD shares stew with O'Chul, says he won't eat babies, wants to start a secret club that doesn't allow girls
550 +1 BFF (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html)
MitD thinks Xykon and Redcloak are his friends, wants to play a game, and O'Chul says he's learning go very quickly
V's Attack
651 Two Eyes in the Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)
MitD and O'Chul playing go, MitD remembers his dad, doesn't know what species he is
654 Cages (Steel and Otherwise) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)
Calls O'Chul by his real name the first time
658 A Bird in Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html)
Rooting for O'Chul to escape
661 The Path of Least Expectation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
Escape
662 The Price is Right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html)
MitD sleeping
Online strips (Blood Runs in the Family)
Back in Azure CityGobbotopia
699 Escape Clause (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html)
MitD trying and failing to repeat his "escape" trick on a hobgoblin.
700 They Would Likely Both Disagree With That Sentiment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)
Identified Tsukiko's scroll as half a magic ritual.
701 Curtains for You (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)
MitD opens the curtains for Redcloak -- pushing is easier than pulling.
702 One for the History Books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)
MitD standing in the background, holding the rope.
703 Meet the New Boss (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html)
MitD is reading the Gobbotopia history book.
704 Dead Men Give No Speeches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)
MitD hopes that "Prime Minister" = in charge of prime rib.
709 No Scry Zone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html)
Wants Tsukiko to scry for O'Chul, but she can't.
Phylactery found
828 A Study in Viridian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html)
Redcloak says MitD was looking for Teevo remote.
831 Two of a Kind Beats King High (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)
MitD warns Redcloak that Xykon is angry.
832 Loose Ends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html)
Shocked that Redcloak murdered Tsukiko.
833 Villainy Afoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)
MitD sad about Tsukiko's death. Knows Astral Plane is silvery and weightless, but can't remember going there.
Girard's Gate
899 Prophecy Fulfilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html)
MitD arrives at the pyramid with Xykon and Redcloak.
900 Hole on the Middle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)
MitD survived the gate explosion, doesn't know what a pelvis is.
901 Friend of a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html)
MitD knows OotS are O-Chul's friends and doesn't want them killed, so he talks Xykon and Redcloak into not attacking the OotS and just going to Kraagor's gate.
Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales
Bonus Strips
Commentary page for Edition Wars
MitD wonders if 4e Xykon's necromantic aura affects him and if he's been updated
Tathum
2013-07-17, 08:00 PM
I am so a'tingle with excitement!
Glad I'm reading through this thread, now. Must say, the research going into it is impressive. Will definitely check those old 1st edition modules for any 'new' monsters that fit this profile...
Emanick
2013-07-17, 09:40 PM
The next-to-last "the" in the next-to-last sentence of your next-to-last post (and the last one with any substantive content in it) should be "then," Gray Wolf. Sorry, that's absurdly pedantic, but this thread is so close to perfection by now that I can't abide seeing a single typo in it. (English major. :smalltongue: )
Also, this is undoubtedly the best thread title yet.
DaggerPen
2013-07-17, 09:56 PM
Ooh, spacious new thread. *sprawls out*
And yes, I'm loving the new thread title, too. Wonder if we'll get a reveal before we run through this one? Eh, probably not.
It's funny that Tathum mentions old module-specific monsters, because now I'm reminded of the old mutated mimic that became an unkillable poop monster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12930.75;wap2) in Rappan Athuk. It wasn't really a great fit outside of toughness, disgusting appearance and foul smell, but I could definitely see something like that turning up in an older module. How common are epic/high-level specific modules, though? That seems like about the only way we could get a MitD from one of those, except for the odd monster who's meant to be avoided vs. fought outright.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 10:19 PM
The next-to-last "the" in the next-to-last sentence of your next-to-last post (and the last one with any substantive content in it) should be "then," Gray Wolf. Sorry, that's absurdly pedantic, but this thread is so close to perfection by now that I can't abide seeing a single typo in it. (English major. :smalltongue: )
Fixed. BTW, the name is Grey Wolf.
GW
Emanick
2013-07-17, 10:28 PM
Fixed. BTW, the name is Grey Wolf.
GW
My apologies! I should have remembered Skitt's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Internet_law#Skitt.27s_Law): Any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself. :smalltongue:
Bulldog Psion
2013-07-17, 10:29 PM
Does this latest strip indicate quite a bit more intellect and insight than we've seen from the MitD before? :smallconfused:
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-17, 10:32 PM
Does this latest strip indicate quite a bit more intellect and insight than we've seen from the MitD before? :smallconfused:
A little. Characterisation marches on (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterizationMarchesOn), after all. Which is always better than its opposite, flanderisation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization), which MitD was showing signs of.
We never tried to put numbers to our "high Int, low Wis" aspect of MitD, though, so MitD finally starting to grow up changes little for this thread.
Grey Wolf
Gift Jeraff
2013-07-17, 10:40 PM
Not sure if they're worth including to the MitD Appearances list, but:
Adventure Game-Appears on the cover of the box and rulebook drinking from a bendy straw.
-Appears as a unique Monster Card in the Xykon Deck. The cartoon is just :mitd: asking if he can come out. Monster Type is ????. Has an Attack Value of 9 +level, a Defense Value of 14 +level, a Range of 0, has an Experience value of 2, and drops 2 Loot Cards. Its abilities are Hide (If Monster wins on Defense, battle is a draw.) and Tricky (+10 Defense at Range > 0.).
-Appears on the Xykon's Crystal Ball card in the Xykon Deck. The cartoon is the last panel of #47 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html).
-Appears on the "Get Angry" Screw This! card. The cartoon is the fourth panel of #114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) minus the speech balloon.
The Shortening expansion pack-Appears as a unique Monster Card. The cartoon is him wandering the dungeon with the umbrella, wondering if there is stew on the higher levels. Has an Attack Value of 13, a Defense Value of 18, a Range of 0, has an Experience value of 2, and drops 1 Loot Card. Everything else is the same as the card in the Xykon Deck.
-Appears on the "Shot in the Dark" Haley's Shtick card. The cartoon features 3 of Haley's arrows inside of him, with no reaction.
Coloring Book!
-Appears on the back cover, showing the roaches a birdie drawing he made and telling them he's not too old for coloring.
-Appears on page 27 as a pair of floating eyes that dropped the umbrella. The reader is supposed to draw him however they want. Redcloak is horrified at the sight and the MitD comments that he thought he was taller.
Chessgeek
2013-07-17, 11:14 PM
Ah, that new thread smell. Have I actually posted in one of these before? I know I've read through at least two of them, but I don't really have much to add to the discussion at any point. So uh... Keep up the good work!
BTW, the name is Grey Wolf.
And the guy in Structured Games is Gray Mage. That's going to be fun to remember.
Irish Musician
2013-07-17, 11:28 PM
Fixed. BTW, the name is Grey Wolf.
GW
That's how I always spell grey anyway...:smalltongue:
EDIT: Also, love the new title old chap!
I am so a'tingle with excitement!
Glad I'm reading through this thread, now. Must say, the research going into it is impressive. Will definitely check those old 1st edition modules for any 'new' monsters that fit this profile...
That is awesome. We always enjoy new potentials to try and figure out what our little (heh) MitD is, so hopefully you will bring us some awesome options. I have faith in you Tathum!!! :smallbiggrin:
Savannah
2013-07-17, 11:29 PM
I decided not to include the coloring book appearances of the MitD because I thought they were very unlikely to be important clues (based purely on the fact that they were in a coloring book that the majority of the readership would never see), and I don't have the game (although I'd make the same argument for his appearances there). If others feel strongly that they should be included, I can do so.
Irish Musician
2013-07-17, 11:30 PM
I decided not to include the coloring book appearances of the MitD because I thought they were very unlikely to be important clues (based purely on the fact that they were in a coloring book that the majority of the readership would never see), and I don't have the game (although I'd make the same argument for his appearances there). If others feel strongly that they should be included, I can do so.
I def agree with you there, Savannah. But if people really want them added, then I will go with you on that as well.
I decided not to include the coloring book appearances of the MitD because I thought they were very unlikely to be important clues (based purely on the fact that they were in a coloring book that the majority of the readership would never see), and I don't have the game (although I'd make the same argument for his appearances there). If others feel strongly that they should be included, I can do so.
While I agree that the appearances in those extra materials are unlikely to be critical, you never know -- the Giant could still have (perhaps unintentionally) dropped in a clue that could bolster or hinder a case for one candidate monster or another.
Also, from the Giant's perspective, might it not be fun to drop in just a little something extra for folks who bought the game or supported the Kickstarter? *shrug* Hard to say, but they seem worth including just for the sake of completeness.
Tathum
2013-07-18, 12:31 AM
Ooh, spacious new thread. *sprawls out*
And yes, I'm loving the new thread title, too. Wonder if we'll get a reveal before we run through this one? Eh, probably not.
It's funny that Tathum mentions old module-specific monsters, because now I'm reminded of the old mutated mimic that became an unkillable poop monster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12930.75;wap2) in Rappan Athuk. It wasn't really a great fit outside of toughness, disgusting appearance and foul smell, but I could definitely see something like that turning up in an older module. How common are epic/high-level specific modules, though? That seems like about the only way we could get a MitD from one of those, except for the odd monster who's meant to be avoided vs. fought outright.
There were actually quite a few high level modules, none went passed level 20, if I recall, but, back then, you needed XP in the millions to get just to the low teens in level. Modules for levels 10 and up could easily be considered epic adventures by 3.5 standards.
And modules like Queen of the Spiders, where you go to the Abyss and fight Lolth, that's some epic stuff right there...
DaggerPen
2013-07-18, 12:55 AM
-Appears on page 27 as a pair of floating eyes that dropped the umbrella. The reader is supposed to draw him however they want. Redcloak is horrified at the sight and the MitD comments that he thought he was taller.
That almost seems to reinforce the idea of MitD being of a Large size but standing hunched over to be at Medium height or something, and MitD thinking he should be taller because he's Large, but it could also just be MitD being clueless. I don't think there's much clear direction either way, alas.
There were actually quite a few high level modules, none went passed level 20, if I recall, but, back then, you needed XP in the millions to get just to the low teens in level. Modules for levels 10 and up could easily be considered epic adventures by 3.5 standards.
And modules like Queen of the Spiders, where you go to the Abyss and fight Lolth, that's some epic stuff right there...
Aha! Gotcha.
thereaper
2013-07-18, 01:19 AM
I was thinking of the fact that if the reader is supposed to draw him any way they want, it could support the idea of him being a shapeshifter (Protean, again :smallbiggrin:).
ChristianSt
2013-07-18, 03:25 AM
I decided not to include the coloring book appearances of the MitD because I thought they were very unlikely to be important clues (based purely on the fact that they were in a coloring book that the majority of the readership would never see), and I don't have the game (although I'd make the same argument for his appearances there). If others feel strongly that they should be included, I can do so.
I would personally include them:
There isn't much harm done (you could put them in an extra-spoiler or something if you want), but I can't see a really good reason why to include one kind of extra material (prequel books/bonus strips) and not include another kind of extra material (game, coloring book). And I don't buy the argument about "majority of readership" - since the majority of readership only has the online strips available. While I think more people have read the regular books than have the game/coloring book, I would gather every possible hint we have. (If there would be some MitD-content among the Kickstarter-pdfs, I would include that, too.)
For not having that content personally: I think just using the information Gift Jeraff provided should be fine. (You could add that in his appearance on the back cover of the coloring bock, MitD doesn't only have his umbrella, but seems to hold also a crayon and his drawing.)
And if I remember correctly, the coloring book scene was something discussed in the last thread.
Jaklefire
2013-07-18, 05:14 AM
Let me just mention that the whole "Two pelvis" thing that people have been buzzing about can be one of two things.
1.) Rich is just screwing with us, because he knows how wrapped up we get about every word he says. Hell, we have a whole thread dedicated to everything the Giant has said, lol.
2.) It fits the Protean surprisingly well. Could it be that his lack of knowledge of basic anatomy is because he doesn't have a definable anatomy? Just a thought, probably not even that original.
Also can't you just imagine whenever he gets revealed he turns into a 200ft long monster of indescribable horror? Honestly I think the protean is a truly nasty creature and would be epic and amazing to see the Order face. (Though it looks like now he wouldn't want to fight them).
Steven
2013-07-18, 05:46 AM
One of two things? Huh. I guess we better get rid of all the other suggestions in the first post and replace them all with: Protean or Rich screwing with us :P
Crusher
2013-07-18, 07:46 AM
One of two things? Huh. I guess we better get rid of all the other suggestions in the first post and replace them all with: Protean or Rich screwing with us :P
Yeah, ok, I could vote for this.
Heh, not really. Well, maybe...
Nah. I still think he's a weird looking Pit Fiend.
Mortizal
2013-07-18, 08:35 AM
I think that it's pretty clear now that he is (was) a child or adolescent, considering how much his int/wis has been increasing, especially given 901.
Throknor
2013-07-18, 08:38 AM
Not sure if they're worth including to the MitD Appearances list, but:
Adventure Game-Appears on the cover of the box and rulebook drinking from a bendy straw.
-Appears as a unique Monster Card in the Xykon Deck. The cartoon is just :mitd: asking if he can come out. Monster Type is ????. Has an Attack Value of 9 +level, a Defense Value of 14 +level, a Range of 0, has an Experience value of 2, and drops 2 Loot Cards. Its abilities are Hide (If Monster wins on Defense, battle is a draw.) and Tricky (+10 Defense at Range > 0.).
-Appears on the Xykon's Crystal Ball card in the Xykon Deck. The cartoon is the last panel of #47 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html).
-Appears on the "Get Angry" Screw This! card. The cartoon is the fourth panel of #114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) minus the speech balloon.
The Shortening expansion pack-Appears as a unique Monster Card. The cartoon is him wandering the dungeon with the umbrella, wondering if there is stew on the higher levels. Has an Attack Value of 13, a Defense Value of 18, a Range of 0, has an Experience value of 2, and drops 1 Loot Card. Everything else is the same as the card in the Xykon Deck.
-Appears on the "Shot in the Dark" Haley's Shtick card. The cartoon features 3 of Haley's arrows inside of him, with no reaction.
Coloring Book!
-Appears on the back cover, showing the roaches a birdie drawing he made and telling them he's not too old for coloring.
-Appears on page 27 as a pair of floating eyes that dropped the umbrella. The reader is supposed to draw him however they want. Redcloak is horrified at the sight and the MitD comments that he thought he was taller.
The stats change with the new card could be a balance issue, or could indicate that more information has been revealed or developed, but that's unlikely to go anywhere.
I don't know that they'll be useful as clues, but they will be interesting for some to double check how they fit after the reveal.
Jaklefire
2013-07-18, 09:59 AM
One of two things? Huh. I guess we better get rid of all the other suggestions in the first post and replace them all with: Protean or Rich screwing with us :P
Haha indeed, but what I was referring to was Rich may very well read this forum and see that people are heavily leaning towards protean and throw in the pelvis to make us bite the protean bait, when really it was a senseless gag. In this scenario it could be any of the monsters you listed or something we haven't imagined yet.
The second option is Protean, which i think is the most likely answer.
tl;dr 2 choices: Protean or Anything else
Olinser
2013-07-18, 10:26 AM
Haha indeed, but what I was referring to was Rich may very well read this forum and see that people are heavily leaning towards protean and throw in the pelvis to make us bite the protean bait, when really it was a senseless gag. In this scenario it could be any of the monsters you listed or something we haven't imagined yet.
The second option is Protean, which i think is the most likely answer.
tl;dr 2 choices: Protean or Anything else
The pelvis bit, just like his inability to see the Gates, has too many interpretations to give any information.
Peelee
2013-07-18, 10:32 AM
My, how that OP Index has grown. I have to wonder if the Giant is impressed with the fact that it still hasn't been figured out*, or if he suspected it would likely remain more or less a mystery until the actual reveal.
Also, jumping on the bandwagon of loving the new thread name.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 10:38 AM
I have to wonder if the Giant is impressed with the fact that it still hasn't been figured out*
Hummm... we may have figured it out, and Rich is the only one that does know if we have. Lets say that MitD is indeed a, say, Zodar. If Rich is following this thread (I wouldn't expect him to), then he knows that a poster did figure it out, which he predicted in W&XPs.
On the other hand, we may not have found the creature yet. I'm encouraged that someone with access to old adventure modules is looking into those - that is the exact type of "third party obscure source" I would expect would hide MitD - because Rich may have DM'ed one such module long ago, and fallen in love with one of the dangerous high-level creatures enough to add it to his webcomic.
But whether we have found it or not, we, as thread participants, won't know until he reveals MitD.
Grey Wolf
Peelee
2013-07-18, 10:49 AM
Hummm... we may have figured it out, and Rich is the only one that does know if we have. Lets say that MitD is indeed a, say, Zodar. If Rich is following this thread (I wouldn't expect him to), then he knows that a poster did figure it out, which he predicted in W&XPs.
On the other hand, we may not have found the creature yet. I'm encouraged that someone with access to old adventure modules is looking into those - that is the exact type of "third party obscure source" I would expect would hide MitD - because Rich may have DM'ed one such module long ago, and fallen in love with one of the dangerous high-level creatures enough to add it to his webcomic.
But whether we have found it or not, we, as thread participants, won't know until he reveals MitD.
Grey Wolf
Well, for the purpose of this discussion, let's keep assuming the MitD is a Zodar. Someone thought it would be the case, and proposed it. However, it hasn't been conclusive, and has at least one argument against (this being the case with virtually every suggestion thus far, as best I can remember. I'm sure you'll forgive me for not checking through all suggestions to verify, because that's an impressive list). If I were the Giant, I'd still count that as "not found out what it is."
Of course, I'm not the Giant, and I don't wish to derail your magnificent thread with an idle thought I had, so if there is still a rebuttal against this, I'll likely leave it be.
CloakedDancer
2013-07-18, 10:49 AM
But whether we have found it or not, we, as thread participants, won't know until he reveals MitD.
Grey Wolf
With the recent characterizations though, the story really feels like it is heading towards a point where the MitD will be revealed. Of course it's always been heading there, but I feel like the pieces to set up the the reveal are starting to fall into place.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 11:05 AM
Well, for the purpose of this discussion, let's keep assuming the MitD is a Zodar. Someone thought it would be the case, and proposed it. However, it hasn't been conclusive, and has at least one argument against (this being the case with virtually every suggestion thus far, as best I can remember. I'm sure you'll forgive me for not checking through all suggestions to verify, because that's an impressive list). If I were the Giant, I'd still count that as "not found out what it is."
I wouldn't. The case for the Zodar is quite strong, and the objections are all due to choices the Giant could take that this thread cannot (specifically, choosing a homebrewed version rather than the official, and changing the look of its exoskeleton to follow the fluff rather than the official art). I would not be surprised if Rich had used a Zodar, and I would think Lord Bingo would deserve being hailed as the one that figured it out, in that case.
Why is it not being hailed as having figured it out in the thread? Well, there are various reasons, but it boils down to: it is literally impossible to be 100% sure that Rich picked a specific creature before the reveal and I will always keep that at the forefront of my mind. Yes, I do of course have favourite suggestions and less-favourite suggestions, but I try to remain as unbiased (or rather, evidence-biased) as I humanly can. I think the evidence, as it stands right now, does point to the Zodar and the Protean. But that doesn't mean Rich couldn't throw a new piece of evidence in 902 that makes us have to rethink the whole thread - the classic example being revealing that he is of a mixed lineage which would open the use of (shudder) templates.
We are playing a guessing game, and in any guessing game, you can't know if you guessed correctly until you are given the solution, no matter how sure you are of how you interpreted the clues given.
Grey Wolf
Perseus
2013-07-18, 11:24 AM
Does the MitD have to be 3.5 material? Could he be 1 or 2 ed? I tried looking in the beginning post if Rich said it was from a specific edition.
Shale
2013-07-18, 11:26 AM
It doesn't even have to be D&D at all. But if he's a 1e or 2e creature that was never updated, it's tough to explain how he wasn't affected by the talisman.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 11:26 AM
Does the MitD have to be 3.5 material?
No
Could he be 1 or 2 ed?
Yes, if they were never updated (but you'll need a good reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with all the never-updated monsters)
I tried looking in the beginning post if Rich said it was from a specific edition.
Rich hasn't even said it is a D&D creature. There are plenty of examples in section 3 of non-D&D creatures.
GW
Perseus
2013-07-18, 11:27 AM
It doesn't even have to be D&D at all. But if he's a 1e or 2e creature that was never updated, it's tough to explain how he wasn't affected by the talisman.
Wasn't that before page 100?
Edit:
As in that plot was made before Rich really figured out what MitD was and thus might have said "oopse he should have been affected by the talisman... Oh well"
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 11:32 AM
Wasn't that before page 100?
Edit:
As in that plot was made before Rich really figured out what MitD was and thus might have said "oopse he should have been affected by the talisman... Oh well"
Section 1a:
"Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either."
I've added the question of MitD having to be D&D to the FAQ.
Grey Wolf
Chessgeek
2013-07-18, 11:32 AM
Wasn't that before page 100?
Yes, but even the comics before The Giant knew what MitD was don't have evidence to contradict it, they just don't necessarily support it.
EDIT: Just when I thought I could be helpful...
Olinser
2013-07-18, 11:42 AM
Wasn't that before page 100?
Edit:
As in that plot was made before Rich really figured out what MitD was and thus might have said "oopse he should have been affected by the talisman... Oh well"
He may have been affected by the talisman. However, Nale didn't have the talisman for more than a couple minutes, and the MiTD was far away from the talisman room, he almost certainly simply didn't have time to get down there before Nale lost the talisman.
Either the talisman had a limited range, or the MiTD was on his way to the room when the talisman was smashed, and he pulled a, "Eh, I just forgot what I was doing. Ah well, stew time!"
DaggerPen
2013-07-18, 11:45 AM
If we had a 2nd edition style creature that was never officially updated that fit all the clues, I'd be fine adding it to FBS and just putting "unsure why it wasn't affected by Dorukan's amulet" in the cons. That seems like the type of thing that could be explained away with backstory, since it's the interaction of a story-specific device with an already statted out monster. Heck, for all we know, the SBGH were surprised to see MitD in the rainforest specifically because they knew that all the never-updated 2nd-ed creatures had disappeared.
The catch with 2nd-ed (and 1st-ed) creatures, though, is that most of the good ones have been updated, and we've seen in-universe that such non-updated creatures do not get new stats, meaning that MitD would have no will save and would have the same strength as he did in 2nd edition, which is a problem because stats in the 1st and 2nd editions were generally lower than in 3.5, meaning he'd have to be even more ludicrously powerful for the system and that such a useful creature had never gotten updated. A monster from a high-level module could fulfill all those requirements, though.
halfeye
2013-07-18, 11:55 AM
... such non-updated creatures do not get new stats, meaning that MitD would have no will save and would have the same strength as he did in 2nd edition, which is a problem because stats in the 1st and 2nd editions were generally lower than in 3.5, meaning he'd have to be even more ludicrously powerful for the system and that such a useful creature had never gotten updated.
Sometimes things are abandoned because they are gamebreakingly overpowerful, something which it seems to me would fit the MitD very well.
Qwertystop
2013-07-18, 12:20 PM
He may have been affected by the talisman. However, Nale didn't have the talisman for more than a couple minutes, and the MiTD was far away from the talisman room, he almost certainly simply didn't have time to get down there before Nale lost the talisman.
Either the talisman had a limited range, or the MiTD was on his way to the room when the talisman was smashed, and he pulled a, "Eh, I just forgot what I was doing. Ah well, stew time!"
The first bit about the Talisman, before Nale got it, is the main issue. He'd have been called to the room it was in with all the other monsters long before the story started.
Perseus
2013-07-18, 01:18 PM
Sometimes things are abandoned because they are gamebreakingly overpowerful, something which it seems to me would fit the MitD very well.
I would love to see MitD as some sort of spelljammer or Darksun monster but that is just wishful thinking :p
Scifne
2013-07-18, 02:09 PM
Why do Red Cloak and Xylon have the MitD with them? What is his role in this ? To cast the spell or to deal with fall out ?
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 02:16 PM
Why do Red Cloak and Xylon have the MitD with them? What is his role in this ? To cast the spell or to deal with fall out ?
He is Xykon's secret weapon, to be revealed when the time is right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html).
GW
Shale
2013-07-18, 02:17 PM
Muscle. If the things the Scribble set to guard their gates turn out to be protected against direct magical attack, Team Evil has to fight it with whatever minions they can bring to bear, and MitD is their biggest and baddest (or should be).
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 02:32 PM
Muscle. If the things the Scribble set to guard their gates turn out to be protected against direct magical attack, Team Evil has to fight it with whatever minions they can bring to bear, and MitD is their biggest and baddest (or should be).
I really do not think that is the case. Not because MitD couldn't swing it - he most certainly can, if tricked into it (as the roaches did) - but because it comes down to Xykon's personality.
Xykon longs to be the most powerful being in the world. His ego is also the size of a very large ego (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShapedLikeItself). When it comes to smashing a problem until it stops being a problem, Xykon is hands-on because that is his way to show the world and himself that he is a force to be reckoned with. He is not the kind to feel content in his superior commanding abilities and strength of his minion armies. MitD represents a piece in Xykon's view of himself: an all-powerful evil sorcerer must have a ugly, dangerous creatures waiting in the shadows to surprise the good guys. He doesn't think he needs it because he wouldn't win without him, but because it feeds into the narrative he tells himself of who he is.
In short, Xykon keeps MitD around not because he can use him as a battering ram, but to feed his cravings for dramatic moments.
Grey Wolf
allenw
2013-07-18, 03:28 PM
He is Xykon's secret weapon, to be revealed when the time is right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html).
GW
He's also Xykon's secret insurance against Redcloak betraying him.
Shale
2013-07-18, 03:31 PM
Xykon is fully willing to let his minions do some of the heavy lifting, though - he didn't just grudgingly accept the hobgoblin army, he had an evilgasm over it. I can fully imagine him continuing his talk about what power really is to include the fact that even when you don't personally have the right tools for a job, it doesn't matter when you can use the tools you do have to make a CR25 (or whatever) monster - or a horde of 10,000 hobgoblins - smash it for you.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 03:39 PM
Xykon is fully willing to let his minions do some of the heavy lifting, though - he didn't just grudgingly accept the hobgoblin army, he had an evilgasm over it. I can fully imagine him continuing his talk about what power really is to include the fact that even when you don't personally have the right tools for a job, it doesn't matter when you can use the tools you do have to make a CR25 (or whatever) monster - or a horde of 10,000 hobgoblins - smash it for you.
Counter: the goblin that killed the ancient silver dragon.
Xykon is fine with the army until he realises they slow him down. His evilgasm barely lasted long enough for RC to use the army to take over Azure City. They are now quite clearly dead weight in his eyes, so he must not think they add to his power.
Similarly, he has often disparaged MitD's ability to be danger. Whatever he thinks MitD is, it is doubtful it is "a part of what makes me powerful" in Xykon's eyes eye sockets.
Grey Wolf
Scifne
2013-07-18, 03:40 PM
Thank you for the link.
Xykon says he will reveal the monster when the time is right and he brings it to the moments when he almost gets a gate. It seems to me like the monster is part of Xykon's plan with the gates.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 03:45 PM
Thank you for the link.
Xykon says he will reveal the monster when the time is right and he brings it to the moments when he almost gets a gate. It seems to me like the monster is part of Xykon's plan with the gates.
No. Xykon is waiting for an unexplained climax before revealing MitD, but I can't have much to do with the gate - he was not dragged along to the Azure city throne room, for example. He is also told to practice for a reveal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) that will happen in the context of Xykon being confronted by protagonists -although this may not still apply, since at the time Xykon was concentrating on the immediate arrival of the OotS.
Grey Wolf
Tathum
2013-07-18, 06:36 PM
My, how that OP Index has grown. I have to wonder if the Giant is impressed with the fact that it still hasn't been figured out*, or if he suspected it would likely remain more or less a mystery until the actual reveal.
Also, jumping on the bandwagon of loving the new thread name.
Or , maybe Rich just shakes his head with a sigh and says, "those goofballs, can't they see its just fat halfling with a teleport wand?"
rweird
2013-07-18, 07:45 PM
Or , maybe Rich just shakes his head with a sigh and says, "those goofballs, can't they see its just fat halfling with a teleport wand?"
Who can throw horses through walls and is a horrible, unexplainable it? :smalltongue: Everyone knows thats not an original idea.
Chessgeek
2013-07-18, 08:00 PM
Who can throw horses through walls and is a horrible, unexplainable it?
He also has a pebble :smalltongue:
Scifne
2013-07-18, 08:10 PM
Thank you again for that link too.
I see what your saying that the monster has to be over the top so that his reveal can be a grand gesture.
How about a Jabberwocky/Jabberwock, either Lewis Carroll or D&D interpertations ?
Eyes a-glow links to eyes in the dark.
Pure silliness of the poem links to the monster's lack of good sense.
In the D&D write ups I found on line, they are spawned in the chaos of gates, their appearances change depending who is looking, and they don't accumulate treasure. Like our MitD.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 08:15 PM
How about a Jabberwocky/Jabberwock, either Lewis Carroll or D&D interpertations ?
I am not aware of a D&D version of jabberwock - I'll need a link. The original has been proposed before, and is found in section 3d.
GW
Scifne
2013-07-18, 08:24 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jabberwock_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/jabberwock
Those ? Maybe ?
Edit: trying to fix first link.
Chessgeek
2013-07-18, 08:40 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jabberwock_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/jabberwock
The dandwiki page has no text, and d20pfsrd lists a copyright of 2010, which is way too late.
Scifne
2013-07-18, 08:54 PM
I think the link works better now.
Even with a later copyright date, they both draw on the same souce and make the monster's questoon about his own upgrade a real question.
rweird
2013-07-18, 09:05 PM
The D&D wiki one might be made to late (along with a CR 7 not being a ultimate weapon), the PF one came out too late too.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 09:05 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jabberwock_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/jabberwock
The first is way too weak to be MitD. The second didn't exist when Rich decided what MitD was.
GW
Akari Itagami
2013-07-18, 09:33 PM
Obviously Mitd is a:
Teenage Grue! :smalltongue:
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 09:51 PM
Obviously Mitd is a:
Teenage Grue! :smalltongue:
Please read the first post.
Grey Wolf
Chessgeek
2013-07-18, 10:02 PM
Please read the first post.
Grey Wolf
I'm pretty sure Akari's comment was in jest.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-18, 10:05 PM
I'm pretty sure Akari's comment was in jest.
That would have required it to be funny. In my experience, drive-by single name posters mean it quite seriously.
GW
Perseus
2013-07-18, 10:45 PM
That would have required it to be funny. In my experience, drive-by single name posters mean it quite seriously.
GW
That is the most buttbackwards way of thinking ever. So just because someone isn't funny to you means they obviously can't be joking? Because they randomly popped in to say something?
it isn't like they used the smiley :smalltongue: or anything to show they were joking.
Wow good going, you just made me not want read this thread anymore.
Akari Itagami
2013-07-18, 10:46 PM
That would have required it to be funny. In my experience, drive-by single name posters mean it quite seriously.
GW
Ok now I know it's not funny, my bad :smallfrown:
Crusher
2013-07-19, 12:41 AM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Jabberwock_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/jabberwock
Those ? Maybe ?
Edit: trying to fix first link.
More formally, the problem with Jabberwocks as candidates (and there have been many, many stat versions of them from various places over the years, ranging enormously in power, from roughly CR7 or 8 all the way up to Epic) is that, looking at the ones powerful enough to credibly be MitD, they never have an answer for the Escape Scene.
They're pretty weird looking, so Circus is fine. And the Epic and near Epic ones tend to be strong enough for the Tower Scene. But even the strongest of them tend to vulnerable to Slashing damage because of the whole Vorpal thing so Miko should have been able to carve it up pretty good. And, since they're basically unintelligent magical beasts I've never seen one with any kind of Teleport, much less a Wish or the like.
Apparently there's an extremely old version out there in, I think, a module (I don't think its the Alice in Wonderland one, though. That one was awesome but I think it was only for levels 5-8 which is way too low) that's extremely powerful and *only* vulnerable to vorpal weapons. If someone stumbles across that one and it happens to have some kind of Teleport ability then it'd be a good candidate.
Edit - Akari, its ok. You just have no idea how frequently GW has to argue with nitwits who really do think MitD is a murgatroidasaurus, are enraged that everyone doesn't recognize the genius of their idea, and then argue for pages about how right they are. I fear he's coming down with PTSD as a result.
Priceguy
2013-07-19, 01:18 AM
Having carefully read through the first posts and the rest of this thread, as well as most of the previous thread, I think there's one aspect that hasn't been given enough attention: story-telling. Whatever the Monster is, it has to be something that can be dramatically or at least comedically revealed.
Take into account that devoted Dungeons and Dragons players are a minority among readers. I myself have never played the game, but I have played enough of other role-playing games to enjoy the jokes and given its role as originator I've read a lot about it. I think I'm at least not much less knowledgeable about the game than the average reader of this comic, and I had never heard of a zodar or aboleth mage until I read these threads. Since it's apparently possible to come up with handfuls of new candidates in an afternoon, it seems there are a lot of them that even seasoned players haven't heard of.
As great a writer as Rich is, I don't think there is a non-sucky way to reveal the Monster as "a homebrewed zodar, with exoskeleton to fit the fluff rather than the art", especially given Rich's stated intention to keep the comic accessible for non-players. It has to be something that can be shown and immediately understood, or at least understood with a minimum of explanation. Otherwise there is no impact and bad story-telling, and Rich has demonstrated several times that his first concern is story-telling.
That's why my favourite suggestion is "something to do the Eastern gods". They are well-known enough to work, it works within the story, it links the Monster to the main plot. The Hephaestus candidate is listed with a single con: as a god, he would be immune to mind control. As the Monster clearly has great powers he doesn't know about, is it so unlikely that this immunity has also been forgotten or lost? If he is Hephaestus, he was attacked by a planet-destroying god-killing abomination. That sort of thing changes a man.
The main problem is rather that it doesn't really fit the hunter scene ("one of these") nor Redcloak's reaction ("I know what you are"). If Redcloak knew he had an honest-to-Thor god by his side, I think he would behave quite differently. Still, these are things I think Rich might be able to fix. "It was a <hopelessly obscure creature> all along" is not.
I recognize that I might be missing the point of the thread, that it's more of a fun quest to see if we can find a creature that fits the characteristics of the Monster. But if we're trying to predict what the Monster will actually turn out to be the day it's revealed, I think we need to give more attention to the story-telling aspect.
ChristianSt
2013-07-19, 03:41 AM
Having carefully read through the first posts and the rest of this thread, as well as most of the previous thread, I think there's one aspect that hasn't been given enough attention: story-telling. Whatever the Monster is, it has to be something that can be dramatically or at least comedically revealed.
Take into account that devoted Dungeons and Dragons players are a minority among readers. I myself have never played the game, but I have played enough of other role-playing games to enjoy the jokes and given its role as originator I've read a lot about it. I think I'm at least not much less knowledgeable about the game than the average reader of this comic, and I had never heard of a zodar or aboleth mage until I read these threads. Since it's apparently possible to come up with handfuls of new candidates in an afternoon, it seems there are a lot of them that even seasoned players haven't heard of.
As great a writer as Rich is, I don't think there is a non-sucky way to reveal the Monster as "a homebrewed zodar, with exoskeleton to fit the fluff rather than the art", especially given Rich's stated intention to keep the comic accessible for non-players. It has to be something that can be shown and immediately understood, or at least understood with a minimum of explanation. Otherwise there is no impact and bad story-telling, and Rich has demonstrated several times that his first concern is story-telling.While some of this is certainly true - I think we can't really argue about whether something is "known enough" that most people will get it. But your whole argument has one big problem: Time - if the MitD would have been introduced in say strip #700, you would have a really good point. Back around strip #100 (the point in time MitD was known to Rich - somewhere in 2004), the comic was much more D&D-related than now (and I think the same is true for the readership). And with that in mind, some obscure D&D-monster fits nicely.
That's why my favourite suggestion is "something to do the Eastern gods". They are well-known enough to work, it works within the story, it links the Monster to the main plot. The Hephaestus candidate is listed with a single con: as a god, he would be immune to mind control. As the Monster clearly has great powers he doesn't know about, is it so unlikely that this immunity has also been forgotten or lost? If he is Hephaestus, he was attacked by a planet-destroying god-killing abomination. That sort of thing changes a man.
Several problems there:
I don't really think that "linking MitD to the main plot" is something that is needed, I think that could be more of a drawback (because then you need really good reasons why MitD was in the jungle, and what has happened with him). Immunity to mind control (or immunity to stuff in general) is normally a passive ability, you can't simple forgot how to be not longer immune. Especially the Eastern gods have a big problem with the circus scene: They are normally quite human-looking. Personally I think a God would be not a good choice for MitD because (for me at least) Gods are simple to powerful to interact with normal beings. And I think to make it work Rich would be forced to warp the whole plot around the MitD - I don't think that MitD is the central plot point.
The main problem is rather that it doesn't really fit the hunter scene ("one of these") nor Redcloak's reaction ("I know what you are"). If Redcloak knew he had an honest-to-Thor god by his side, I think he would behave quite differently. Still, these are things I think Rich might be able to fix. "It was a <hopelessly obscure creature> all along" is not.
But what is <hopelessly obscure> and what is not? I think it is better if we don't draw a line there. Also Rich said:
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.Which for me says that obscure things are more likely. If it would be a thing we all know, it should be pretty easy to figure out.
I recognize that I might be missing the point of the thread, that it's more of a fun quest to see if we can find a creature that fits the characteristics of the Monster. But if we're trying to predict what the Monster will actually turn out to be the day it's revealed, I think we need to give more attention to the story-telling aspect.
I don't think that with such a well-written post you can "miss the point of thread". We want to predict the MitD - but we also have the problem (as Grey Wolf pointed out some posts earlier), that we can't know whether we are successful or not. So maybe you are right, maybe someone other has guessed it already - but we have (I think for a pretty good reason) really high standards. I don't think we will ever be able to say: "That's it: MitD is a <xyz>!! Now we can go home". So until MitD is revealed, this thread can more or less only give candidates and peg how likely they should be. And hopefully the real answer is somewhere on the top of our list.
(PS: While I play RPGs, I have never played D&D, too :smallwink:)
Stray
2013-07-19, 03:46 AM
"Monster must be instantly recognizable for everyone in the audience for reveal to work" shows up quite a lot actually. Just like "Monster must be iconic D&D creature". I don't think that it is necessary, just showing his monstrous appearance and using his powers in a dramatically appropriate moment would be effective enough. Explanation for people who don't recognize it can come later, when whatever dramatic event caused the reveal is dealt with. Also everybody has a different definition of what is iconic or instantly recognizable. I'll bet that after the reveal someone will complain that it isn't Tarrasque or Snarl-Spawn.
Nothing stopping you from proposing a specific candidate from Greek mythology, but keep in mind that we don't know how detailed the plot was when identity of the Monster was decided. It's entirely possible that around strip #100 the Giant did not decide yet which gods will be killed by Snarl, and if Eastern Gods don't play any further role in a story, their identity might be entirely irrelevant.
Silver Swift
2013-07-19, 05:52 AM
"Monster must be instantly recognizable for everyone in the audience for reveal to work" shows up quite a lot actually. Just like "Monster must be iconic D&D creature". I don't think that it is necessary, just showing his monstrous appearance and using his powers in a dramatically appropriate moment would be effective enough. Explanation for people who don't recognize it can come later, when whatever dramatic event caused the reveal is dealt with. Also everybody has a different definition of what is iconic or instantly recognizable. I'll bet that after the reveal someone will complain that it isn't Tarrasque or Snarl-Spawn.
I understand why MitD probably can't really be an iconic, instantly recognizable creatures (if there was one that fit most of the clues we would have found it by now), but I do have trouble imaging how the MitD can be revealed without it being anticlimactic for most readers.
Just dropping the umbrella and attacking doesn't really seem like it has the narrative punch that would fit the reveal of such a long lasting mystery. I'm sure there are ways to do it, but I just can't seem to picture one that really works. Also keep in mind that someone probably has to identify the species by name, otherwise OotS art style is ambiguous enough that we still wouldn't know what it was even after the reveal.
Stray
2013-07-19, 06:38 AM
I understand why MitD probably can't really be an iconic, instantly recognizable creatures (if there was one that fit most of the clues we would have found it by now), but I do have trouble imaging how the MitD can be revealed without it being anticlimactic for most readers.
Oh, no doubt about it, people will be disappointed, just like there is always someone who gets greatly disappointed by attack of opportunity minutiae being wrong. You can't please everyone.
Just dropping the umbrella and attacking doesn't really seem like it has the narrative punch that would fit the reveal of such a long lasting mystery. I'm sure there are ways to do it, but I just can't seem to picture one that really works. Also keep in mind that someone probably has to identify the species by name, otherwise OotS art style is ambiguous enough that we still wouldn't know what it was even after the reveal.
Well, I used to think that death of a stick figure couldn't impact me emotionally, and then Tsukiko pushed Redcloak too far.
And identifying by name takes only couple of words of combat dialog, explaining what it is exactly, where did it came from, and how it fits the clues will take a lot more. For me very definition of anticlimactic reveal would be revealing MitD in first panel and then spending rest of a page to explain what it's supposed to be.
oskeladden
2013-07-19, 07:04 AM
I understand why MitD probably can't really be an iconic, instantly recognizable creatures (if there was one that fit most of the clues we would have found it by now), but I do have trouble imaging how the MitD can be revealed without it being anticlimactic for most readers.
Just dropping the umbrella and attacking doesn't really seem like it has the narrative punch that would fit the reveal of such a long lasting mystery. I'm sure there are ways to do it, but I just can't seem to picture one that really works. Also keep in mind that someone probably has to identify the species by name, otherwise OotS art style is ambiguous enough that we still wouldn't know what it was even after the reveal.
I have thought for some time that Kraagor's Gate would provide a good dramatic setting for MiTD to reveal itself. Given that the Gate is guarded by the most powerful monsters imaginable, then if MiTD is not a one-off monster it would seem entirely that there will be another of its kind there. With The Giant's style, there are a lot of possibilities for a dramatic reveal by the MiTD of itself there, perhaps as O-Chul is being threatened by the monster. It is also sufficiently close to what I imagine will be the climax of the plotline to be a possibility. I could, of course, be completely wrong.
Priceguy
2013-07-19, 07:11 AM
While some of this is certainly true - I think we can't really argue about whether something is "known enough" that most people will get it. But your whole argument has one big problem: Time - if the MitD would have been introduced in say strip #700, you would have a really good point. Back around strip #100 (the point in time MitD was known to Rich - somewhere in 2004), the comic was much more D&D-related than now (and I think the same is true for the readership). And with that in mind, some obscure D&D-monster fits nicely.
At the time, sure. But it seems to me that Rich has kept hyping the mystery as the comic has grown and acquired a much larger and more diverse readership. I don't think he would have done that knowing the ultimate answer was something most of his readers would respond to with a "say what?". Unless he's planning to make a joke about the anticlimactic nature of the reveal, which seems more likely the more I think about it.
Immunity to mind control (or immunity to stuff in general) is normally a passive ability, you can't simple forgot how to be not longer immune.
That's the sort of thing that I'd expect Rich to easily be able to write around. "God being almost-destroyed by the Snarl and therefore loses most of his powers" isn't that strange.
But yeah, it's probably not just one of the Eastern gods, straight up. But I do think it's more likely that it's something more real-world than a Dungeons and Dragons monster we haven't been able to find yet.
I understand why MitD probably can't really be an iconic, instantly recognizable creatures (if there was one that fit most of the clues we would have found it by now), but I do have trouble imaging how the MitD can be revealed without it being anticlimactic for most readers.
Exactly, and this is the problem with virtually every suggestion. If Rich needs to show the monster and then have someone explain what it is and how it fits the clues, the moment is pretty much ruined. Unless, like I said, a joke on that topic is his plan.
I have thought for some time that Kraagor's Gate would provide a good dramatic setting for MiTD to reveal itself. Given that the Gate is guarded by the most powerful monsters imaginable, then if MiTD is not a one-off monster it would seem entirely that there will be another of its kind there.
That is a very good idea. Show a bunch of really powerful monsters, have the heroes go "Oh no! An X and a Y and a Z!" a couple of times, maybe say "we're lucky it wasn't a fiendish ancient half-dragon dire Z", and then reveal the Monster to be a fiendish ancient half-dragon dire Z. That's something Rich could pull off.
Steven
2013-07-19, 07:30 AM
At the time, sure. But it seems to me that Rich has kept hyping the mystery as the comic has grown and acquired a much larger and more diverse readership. I don't think he would have done that knowing the ultimate answer was something most of his readers would respond to with a "say what?". Unless he's planning to make a joke about the anticlimactic nature of the reveal, which seems more likely the more I think about it.
Really? What has Rich done to hype the mystery? To my knowledge he's only talked about it twice both times in the forwards to the books which are probably only going to be purchased by the people who are the most into the comic.
And what would you have him do? Say 'Oh. Well hardly anyone is going to know what an X is so I may as well just tell everyone and completely ruin the suspense'?
Exactly, and this is the problem with virtually every suggestion. If Rich needs to show the monster and then have someone explain what it is and how it fits the clues, the moment is pretty much ruined. Unless, like I said, a joke on that topic is his plan.
Or maybe he'll just reveal the creature and use a fight or some other action to show how awesome the creature is without anyone needing to recognize it.
Scifne
2013-07-19, 07:50 AM
Another way to make the big reveal work is to have it also be a plot reveal. That way Xykon can have his super-once-written-up monster and at the same time (but for different reasons) we the audience have a shock.
For example, the snarl wasn't out of nowhere - it was an illusionist hired by one pantheon to kill another, but things went wrong and the release of divinity exploded, creating a new world (containing evidence of who killed the gods) and something in this world, like Audrey II, the plane shifting plant.
That is not a real guess - it's an example of a two pronged surprise. I'm trying to say the reveal can work at two levels to be guessed seperately: in story and monster manual citation.
Silver Swift
2013-07-19, 08:15 AM
Well, I used to think that death of a stick figure couldn't impact me emotionally, and then Tsukiko pushed Redcloak too far.
Oh, I'm sure the Giant will be able to make it awesome, I just can't see how right now.
And identifying by name takes only couple of words of combat dialog, explaining what it is exactly, where did it came from, and how it fits the clues will take a lot more. For me very definition of anticlimactic reveal would be revealing MitD in first panel and then spending rest of a page to explain what it's supposed to be.
Exactly, that is an awful lot of explaining to work into the narrative.
Exactly, and this is the problem with virtually every suggestion. If Rich needs to show the monster and then have someone explain what it is and how it fits the clues, the moment is pretty much ruined. Unless, like I said, a joke on that topic is his plan.
Just to be clear, I'm almost completely certain it will be an "obscure" monster and I very much do not believe this is a problem.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 08:18 AM
Whatever the Monster is, it has to be something that can be dramatically or at least comedically revealed.
I fully agree with what ChristianSt & Peregrine Crow said. But in addition, I disagree with the statement in the quote. There is no reason for the monster's species to be part of the dramatic reveal. MitD breaking out of Xykon's mind control due to the Power of Friendship to save O-Chul's life would be a massive drama moment, which would have nothing whatsoever to do with MitD's species.
This idea that MitD's species must be dramatic, and thus recognisable (btw, I also disagree with that causal relationship right there) has been proposed at least a dozen times by now. Its major flaw is that OotS is character-driven, not rules-driven. Who the hell cares what MitD species is? Do you think Xykon, or O-Chul, or Roy care? Do you think that it will be "more dramatic" if it is a souped-up minotaur than if he is a zodar? Why? The characters and the readership already know MitD, even if we can't put a name to his species. He is extremely strong, extremely dangerous, extremely hard to kill, and has an untapped magical potential. The fact that his species is unknown X rather than better known Y or very famous Z is irrelevant to the story.
Rich has been clear that he expects someone to figure it out. He did not expect his entire readership to know in advance of the reveal, and indeed I suspect that, since he decided MitD when his readership was mostly D&D geeks, he picked one that would surprise those geeks. But not because that would be dramatic, but because geeks do like obscure monsters.
But what bothers me most about this argument, as it always has, is the not-particularly-subtle dig at how the thread operates. It seems we haven't "been given enough attention [to] story-telling". This is both blatantly false ("Rule of Funny" is very often invoked in this thread, which is a story-telling technique, and of course the "surprising it can talk" clue is taken to be a lampshade, another well-known story-telling technique) and also quite vacuous. What you mean is "I don't want MitD to be a creature I don't, personally, recognise, and the thread should discriminate based on my knowledge of powerful monsters". Unfortunately for anyone espousing this view, there is no rational way to apply this insight.
Look: I don't share that view, and I cannot claim to understand it. I will be thrilled if the reveal comes and we did figure it out. I will be even more thrilled if MitD turns out to be in the FBS list. And I most probably will be even more thrilled if we never did figure it out. The only circumstance I would hate is if MitD does not in fact fit the clues - that is the one thing that would let me down. Notice that none of those scenarios hinge on my actually knowing the creature in advance.
But that is my own, personal, view on the matter. I am perfectly happy to accept that other people's enjoyment of the reveal will hinge on them knowing the species beforehand, even if I don't understand why. But this is a thread that exists to compile information on MitD, and what these "has to be dramatic" is building towards is some kind of system that gives extra "points" to creatures that are well-known. But that is an irrational form of measurement. I do pay a bit of attention to it - I have non-D&D playing friends that read OotS, and over the years I have asked them if they know what a Tarrasque/Lich/Protean/Zodar/etc. is, as one or another became the focus of the thread. Well, all of those are mostly unknown outside D&D circles. But the monsters they do know - minotaur, who eats his victims and is strong being a classic example - are simply not realistic challenges to the OotS anymore. Bottom line is that I did try to keep "recognisability" in mind, but it is too subjective, and produces too few results, to be taken into account.
Edit:
"a homebrewed zodar, with exoskeleton to fit the fluff rather than the art"
Correction: it is not just any homebrewed zodar, it is this (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) homebrewed zodar, first result in google when you search for "zodar", which existed before the official version of 3.5 zodar came out, and with a fluff description that mentions both "exoskeleton" and "crystal spheres", which does not match the official art that would be produced after it [nor, presumably, the official art that came before]. If Rich is using this page, rather than the official version, he would have more than enough slack to make, as Lord Bingo suggested, a disgusting-looking insectoid creature that can be honestly described as "nothing you have seen before".
Grey Wolf
ChristianSt
2013-07-19, 08:44 AM
At the time, sure. But it seems to me that Rich has kept hyping the mystery as the comic has grown and acquired a much larger and more diverse readership. I don't think he would have done that knowing the ultimate answer was something most of his readers would respond to with a "say what?". Unless he's planning to make a joke about the anticlimactic nature of the reveal, which seems more likely the more I think about it.
I can't really say Rich "kept hyping the mystery". Nobody in the comic seems to be curious about what MitD is. And the other solution would be just to reveal MitD as soon as possible (which just would be wrong imo) or Rich changed what MitD was to follow a mainstream (I certainly don't think Rich would do that, and even if we would think that, the thread can only really operate under the assumption that Rich tells the truth)
That's the sort of thing that I'd expect Rich to easily be able to write around. "God being almost-destroyed by the Snarl and therefore loses most of his powers" isn't that strange.
If you need to argue something like that, then MitD can possible be anything (maybe by surviving the Snarl he also gained some supernatural abilities? Perhaps he is a plotted plant?)
But yeah, it's probably not just one of the Eastern gods, straight up. But I do think it's more likely that it's something more real-world than a Dungeons and Dragons monster we haven't been able to find yet.
Exactly, and this is the problem with virtually every suggestion. If Rich needs to show the monster and then have someone explain what it is and how it fits the clues, the moment is pretty much ruined. Unless, like I said, a joke on that topic is his plan.
That is a very good idea. Show a bunch of really powerful monsters, have the heroes go "Oh no! An X and a Y and a Z!" a couple of times, maybe say "we're lucky it wasn't a fiendish ancient half-dragon dire Z", and then reveal the Monster to be a fiendish ancient half-dragon dire Z. That's something Rich could pull off.Also the most common consent is that MitD can't be heavily templated. Because with enough templates, nearly anything can be MitD. So the idea is not that it is a template1 template2 template3 XYZ, but just simple a XYZ. The more stuff you need to alter the XYZ the more unlikely it is, because then it would be more and more something Rich would have invented and not something someone else did come up with.
But yeah: If you have something that you think might be a good candidate, just bring it up - best if you can make a plausible argument about why the information we have about MitD will work with it.
It doesn't matter whether it is D&D, some other RPG, some book or TV show or something else entirely. As long as someone other then Rich made it up (and it is old enough, so best something 2004, unless you can make really good arguments about why Rich had known about it), it might be MitD.
I think the reason why so many D&D-monster shows up here is because most of the followers in this thread know D&D and it makes certain things comparable.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 08:49 AM
I think the reason why so many D&D-monster shows up here is because most of the followers in this thread know D&D and it makes certain things comparable.
Certainly. But also, it is playing the odds. Think of the nature of the comic at around #100. How likely, really, is that Rich did not pick a D&D monster at the time? As always, the thread is not about to just ignore non-D&D creatures without strong evidence that we should, but being honest with ourselves, I think that the chance of MitD not being a stat'ed D&D creature are quite small.
Grey Wolf
ChristianSt
2013-07-19, 08:56 AM
Look: I don't share that view, and I cannot claim to understand it. I will be thrilled if the reveal comes and we did figure it out. I will be even more thrilled if MitD turns out to be in the FBS list. And I most probably will be even more thrilled if we never did figure it out. The only circumstance I would hate is if MitD does not in fact fit the clues - that is the one thing that would let me down. Notice that none of those scenarios hinge on my actually knowing the creature in advance.
I cannot say anything other than that I have nearly exactly the same view on a MitD-reveal.
[Only thing to add: I would find it totally awesome if it would be Snorlax, but I don't think that will happen, for more than enough reasons.]
Priceguy
2013-07-19, 09:08 AM
I tried as hard as I could to not step on toes, and I did anyway, so I'll just apologize and step out.
ChristianSt
2013-07-19, 09:14 AM
I tried as hard as I could to not step on toes, and I did anyway, so I'll just apologize and step out.
I don't think you stepped on anyone's toes, so no need to apologize.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 09:31 AM
I tried as hard as I could to not step on toes, and I did anyway, so I'll just apologize and step out.
Actually, please don't. Of all the people asking for drama to be taken into consideration, your post is far and above the most reasonable and polite I have read. Seriously. It did not offend me, you certainly did not step on my toes, and I'm sorry I made you feel like you did.
Like Crusher said, much of my posts has to be understood in a context. I know that, to you, that was an original idea that you felt was missing in the thread. To me, it is the same old argument that resurfaces every so often. I do try to keep a fresh look, but it is hard, after so many years of seeing it. I love this thread dearly, and the thrill of a new candidate being uncovered every time someone posts, or a new interpretation of an old clue that gives a twist to the evidence. But I have been criticised a lot about how I run this thread, too, and it doesn't get any easier.
Bottom line is that I like polite opposition. Keeps me honest, if nothing else. If everyone that surrounds me thinks like I do - and yes, I don't think about drama all that much, I'm too much of an engineer - then we will miss some of the storytelling clues. Just, when suggesting something like this, take a moment to put yourself in my shoes: "how would this change the way information is structured in the first post?". If you can't find a rational, non-biased/non-subjective way of applying the insight, then it is best reserved for personal views, and head-canon. It doesn't mean it is wrong, just that it can't really be used in this thread.
Grey Wolf
Jaklefire
2013-07-19, 09:55 AM
To me, it is the same old argument that resurfaces every so often. I do try to keep a fresh look, but it is hard, after so many years of seeing it.
Maybe the MitD is a grue!
Crusher
2013-07-19, 09:57 AM
Also the most common consent is that MitD can't be heavily templated. Because with enough templates, nearly anything can be MitD. So the idea is not that it is a template1 template2 template3 XYZ, but just simple a XYZ. The more stuff you need to alter the XYZ the more unlikely it is, because then it would be more and more something Rich would have invented and not something someone else did come up with.
Speaking of templates, did we ever finish figuring out the minimum required collection of templates for MitD to actually be a templated potted plant? I've been out of town for a number of weeks with extremely intermittent internet access so I've missed a bit.
Jaklefire
2013-07-19, 10:00 AM
Also a question, why isn't Zodar listed under the Fit the Big Scenes column?
It is a pretty likely guess and it fits the tower scene and the escape scene. It also makes sense that they would be surprised that it talks. You know why the Zodar is a good idea Grey Wolf and you know why it isn't, so I'm just going to stop here.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 10:01 AM
Speaking of templates, did we ever finish figuring out the minimum required collection of templates for MitD to actually be a templated potted plant? I've been out of town for a number of weeks with extremely intermittent internet access so I've missed a bit.
I never published it, but I did find a way to at least boost something's HD to stratospheric levels without unduly increasing its size, which would give access to some high-level powers (a lot of templates restrict powers by HD).
I never published it because it turns out that by RAW, potted plants are objects, not creatures, and thus are not eligible to be templated. I kept thinking I should just write up a potted plant, based on the rat, to start me off, but I kept putting it off, and then some other shiny thing must have distracted me.
Edit:
Also a question, why isn't Zodar listed under the Fit the Big Scenes column?
It is a pretty likely guess and it fits the tower scene and the escape scene. It also makes sense that they would be surprised that it talks. You know why the Zodar is a good idea Grey Wolf and you know why it isn't, so I'm just going to stop here.
Because it does not fit the Big Scene that is the circus. The work-around involving ignoring official art and parts of the fluff and instead base it on the exoskeleton was the brainchild of Lord Bingo, and I kept thinking that making an exception for Zodar would open a can of worms that would make the FBS category explode ("if zodar can make up his own description of its look, why can't X do so to?"). Thankfully, Lord Bingo was happy with the zodar not being in the FBS, so it simply went into the suggestion list.
Like with the drama thing, just keep in mind that I wear two hats. Just because I personally like the zodar, and find it to be a great go-to example for a lot of arguments, that doesn't mean that curator-me likes it.
Grey Wolf
Tathum
2013-07-19, 11:09 AM
I would hesitate to think Rich would have made MitD a templated creature, at least a heavily templated one.
I think that would fall into the category of something he made up himself.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 11:11 AM
I would hesitate to think Rich would have made MitD a templated creature, at least a heavily templated one.
I think that would fall into the category of something he made up himself.
That's my feeling on the issue, as well. But a large number of people disagree - they feel that a single template (particularly of the type that doesn't indicate mixed blood, such as the pseudonatural template) would not break the "someone made it up" clause nor the "can be figured out" clause.
Grey Wolf
This idea that MitD's species must be dramatic, and thus recognisable (btw, I also disagree with that causal relationship right there) has been proposed at least a dozen times by now. Its major flaw is that OotS is character-driven, not rules-driven. Who the hell cares what MitD species is? Do you think Xykon, or O-Chul, or Roy care? Do you think that it will be "more dramatic" if it is a souped-up minotaur than if he is a zodar? Why?
I'll try and explain why I think it matters a little - to me, at least.
If I don't know more about the MitD and what it can do when it emerges from the darkness than when it was still hidden, then what was the point of the darkness?
That's the poor storytelling that I think the non-DnD players might be trying to get at. Certainly that's the root of why it matters to me.
If the MitD is a Vodar, then why hide him in darkness to begin with? No-one, outside a small percentage of players, will know what a Vodar is and can do, so even revealed its story-telling role is the same. It's just as much a mysterious powerful figure behind Xykon as it was when cloaked in shadows.
If the MitD was Godzilla (I'm not suggesting it is, it's just the Big G is probably the world's No 1 most recognisable monster) then the moment it steps out of the shadows, anyone reading knows exactly how dangerous it is, what it can do, what it's vulnerable to. The power of the reveal is stronger, because when the Monster is revealed the Giant reveals actual information to the majority of the readers, not just a tiny few.
It's not a very strong argument - power of the forum to disseminate knowledge, DnD focus back in the day, etc - but I think it is a valid one, and one that is easier to overlook when you're more familiar with the DnD back catalogue, and almost any creature reveal would provide actual information.
On the other hand, I've been racking my brains for a mythological or pop culture monster that might fit, and come up with nothing, so the argument achieves nothing.
Oh, and I don't see how it can be a Vodar because from the description you linked it only gets to speak 3 times in its lifetime - or at least, that's how I read it. Unless that explains why it's unusual to hear one speaking.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 11:52 AM
Oh, and I don't see how it can be a Vodar because from the description you linked it only gets to speak 3 times in its lifetime - or at least, that's how I read it. Unless that explains why it's unusual to hear one speaking.
Got it in one. We are looking for creatures that would be surprising to see talking: i.e. the SBGH's comment is a lampshade of the fact that the base species would not normally speak. The Zodar matches this perfectly precisely because they can only speak three times in their lifetime, and thus the fact that MitD keeps prattling on about whatever is in his mind is indeed surprising.
EDIT:
If I don't know more about the MitD and what it can do when it emerges from the darkness than when it was still hidden, then what was the point of the darkness?
But you will know more about MitD and what it can do after it emerges from the darkness than you do while it is still hidden, even if you cannot name his species.
This is at two levels. First, the reveal is not just for the readers. It will also be for, you know, the actual characters in the comic. How Roy and V react to revealed!MitD will give you a lot of new information about MitD, even if you have been following this thread.
But lets say that, somehow, you don't think that the fact it will be a big reveal to Roy and V (who are the most likely to recognise MitD on sight) matters. Lets say that I agree with your base position that the only thing that matters is that the reader, not the characters, recognise MitD.
A name is just a tag. There is many, many ways of giving you clues about how MitD is powerful with drawing alone. Even if you have no idea what a sand elemental is, the drawing clues in the comic should tell you how dangerous it is in 901 and then reinforced in 902. Even if you don't know the name "sand elemental", you will have a fairly accurate idea of the kind of things that will hurt him and the ones that won't.
Let me give you an example based exclusively on Zodar and Protean. Lets say they are the only two candidates, and the reveal comes, and it is one or the other - but you have never heard of either, or of this thread.
Option A, MitD is a large thing with a black exoskeleton that is disgustingly insectoid. You will then know that Miko and Belkar just couldn't penetrate that exoskeleton - it must be very, very hard. Roy may have to use blunt objects, rather than his greatsword.
Option B, MitD is a mass of tentacles and other yucky stuff, and his model changes in every panel. You then know that Miko's problem was fast regeneration. Roy may need to use fire/salt/acid/etc. to attack it, or just keep chopping at tentacles as they appear.
Notice how many of the MitD unknowns can be shown, rather than told, through drawing clues alone. Yes, you might not be able to put a name tag on the thing, but Rich is a great storyteller, so you will know that MitD is to be feared, and once you see what it looks like, you will be closer to understand why and how it should be feared.
As I said, this idea that the enjoyment of the reveal is contingent on recognising the creature, when so many weird things have been drawn in the comic with no-one shouting "But I don't know what this thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) is! This comic is terrible!" tells me that knowing the name of the thing is quite irrelevant.
Yours,
Grey Wolf
happycrow
2013-07-19, 12:35 PM
Apologies if this has been done before and I missed it... but what about Juiblex (or a "division" of it), with character development?
DaggerPen
2013-07-19, 12:39 PM
Well, Google images for Juiblex certainly turns up a horrifying-looking enough creature, though the eye configuration is totally wrong. Do you have a list of stats? I couldn't turn any up.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 12:40 PM
Apologies if this has been done before and I missed it... but what about Juiblex (or a "division" of it), with character development?
Please don't do drive-by posts. If you really think this creature is a good candidate, tells us why.
Also, how hard is it to check the first post to see if a creature has been suggested before?
GW
happycrow
2013-07-19, 12:53 PM
Cranky little guy, aren't you?
There are 7 whole threads of this stuff, so I don't know what's been discounted or not.
So, random arguments Pro for you.
1. HIDEOUSLY UGLY
2. His "Dad" would be a "big eater" - sort of epic understatement there
3. Psionic powers would be a given
4. Not dependent on 3.5 and so compatible with "hardly ever check it any more"
5. Moldy hamburgers are absolutely no problem.
6. Physical strength negotiable with moments of "epic-omg" absolutely plausible.
7. Absolutely not expected to show up in a rainforest or speak common.
8. Genius intellect
DaggerPen
2013-07-19, 12:56 PM
Cranky little guy, aren't you?
There are 7 whole threads of this stuff, so I don't know what's been discounted or not.
So, random arguments Pro for you.
1. HIDEOUSLY UGLY
2. His "Dad" would be a "big eater" - sort of epic understatement there
3. Psionic powers would be a given
4. Not dependent on 3.5 and so compatible with "hardly ever check it any more"
5. Moldy hamburgers are absolutely no problem.
6. Physical strength negotiable with moments of "epic-omg" absolutely plausible.
7. Absolutely not expected to show up in a rainforest or speak common.
8. Genius intellect
*sigh*
You don't have to read all 7 threads. You just have to go to the "suggested monsters" section, go down to the j section, and see if it's there. I took two seconds to do it for you before I went to google to try to turn up the stats.
Speaking of which - I went to google to turn up the stats and couldn't. This happens for a decent amount of monsters, which is why we like people to provide them. Heck, I'm not even sure what Juiblex is, beyond apparently some type of demon lord.
Don't be a jerk because someone asked you to elaborate on your suggestion.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 12:58 PM
Cranky little guy, aren't you?
I've spent many, many hours ensuring that the first post is a comprehensive list of every creature ever discussed. So yes, I'm rather cranky that you can't take even five minutes to do a basic search of an alphabetised list.
So, random arguments Pro for you.
1. HIDEOUSLY UGLY
2. His "Dad" would be a "big eater" - sort of epic understatement there
3. Psionic powers would be a given
4. Not dependent on 3.5 and so compatible with "hardly ever check it any more"
5. Moldy hamburgers are absolutely no problem.
6. Physical strength negotiable with moments of "epic-omg" absolutely plausible.
7. Absolutely not expected to show up in a rainforest or speak common.
8. Genius intellect
OK, given the lack of actual support, I'll go with "can't explain the escape." Also, "not strong enough, if his strength is 'negotiable' since he was trying to hit light" and "can't be Good".
Edit: can someone check Dungeon magazine #188 to see if we can get some hard stats? This (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/dun/201103juiblex)suggests it can be found there
Edit 2: That might be the 4E version. A different webpage (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Juiblex) reference page 67-68 of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss
GW
pwning doodes
2013-07-19, 01:36 PM
Cranky little guy, aren't you?
To be perfectly honest, Grey Wolf, you do come across quite harshly sometimes. It is completely understandable given all the annoying arguments and behaviors you've had to deal with before now, but to somebody without that context it can sound "cranky". It would be nice if you could try to be a bit more forgiving, at least to first time offenders. Just to be clear, I think you are an awesome curator for this thread. Without you, we would have pages and pages of opinionated discussions instead of a neatly compiled list and logical, reasoned arguments. All I'm saying is that you could go about it a bit more kindly.
P.S. Long time reader but first time poster of this thread. Hi, everybody!
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 01:53 PM
To be perfectly honest, Grey Wolf, you do come across quite harshly sometimes. It is completely understandable given all the annoying arguments and behaviors you've had to deal with before now, but to somebody without that context it can sound "cranky". It would be nice if you could try to be a bit more forgiving, at least to first time offenders. Just to be clear, I think you are an awesome curator for this thread. Without you, we would have pages and pages of opinionated discussions instead of a neatly compiled list and logical, reasoned arguments. All I'm saying is that you could go about it a bit more kindly.
Yes, I know - but don't be afraid to call me out on it when you feel it is getting out of hand. I normally aren't doing it on purpose, I just come over across as harsh even when I'm aiming for "dry, librarian" tones. I also tend to mellow as the thread gets longer, because I can accept that when a thread is past 20-ish pages, the temptation to skip all those pages and go directly to the last one is quite large. But starting a new thread is a particularly bad time for me, because it inevitably means that my latest binge of thread update is still fresh in my mind, always a stressing time, and they really have no excuse to skip a mere handful of pages.
Now, this of course doesn't apply in my latest bout. I was cranky. Any intro post that strongly suggests someone just skipped all the hard work I put into the first post is going to make me cranky, made worse by it being a drive-by posting. But on the other hand, my post answering Priceguy wasn't meant to be anything other than my counter arguments to the drama proposition, and even though I went over it several times to try my best to make it non-threatening, I still managed to put my foot in my mouth.
The tricky thing here, I suspect, is that what makes me a good curator (my rational mind) is also what gets me in trouble (my opposition to subjective argumentation). Catch 22 is a bitch. (That said, it doesn't actually excuse my behaviour. I am supposed to be trying to catch myself. It's not like I can claim ignorance of the problem)
Grey Wolf
Throknor
2013-07-19, 02:10 PM
As I said, this idea that the enjoyment of the reveal is contingent on recognising the creature, when so many weird things have been drawn in the comic with no-one shouting "But I don't know what this thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) is! This comic is terrible!" tells me that knowing the name of the thing is quite irrelevant.
Or the flumphs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). They're a running gag that many readers probably weren't familiar with and newer readers probably still aren't if they don't read the boards. Without knowing what they are it's possible to pick up that they are soft, out-of-place, and not particularly dangerous. They're even revealed to be not evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html).
Obviously, the salient points of MITD's relevant abilities and characteristics will come out much faster in-comic, but personally I think it will work in its role even without a single character literally naming its species. Granted, if it appears in-comic without an explicit naming I do expect that someone would be able to name it in the corresponding thread, but not that it would be absolutely necessary to the story.
Throknor
2013-07-19, 02:28 PM
The tricky thing here, I suspect, is that what makes me a good curator (my rational mind) is also what gets me in trouble (my opposition to subjective argumentation). Catch 22 is a bitch. (That said, it doesn't actually excuse my behaviour. I am supposed to be trying to catch myself. It's not like I can claim ignorance of the problem)
Grey Wolf
Sometimes straight honesty is harsh. If I may, the point you've been trying to make is that all suggestions are welcome if they at least try to address the points that have been made over the years. When someone comes in with a 'What about Bob?' suggestion, your choices seem to be a simple 'No' for which you'll just get called out on for being mean or spending your time research and refuting the qualities that would make an actual discussion. Neither seems good.
Maybe make a simple template to reply to drive-bys with. Something like:
1) How did XXXXX punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt XXXXX?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize XXXXX?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing XXXXX?
5) How did XXXXX teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
That puts the onus of the research right back on them. If they can at least answer those with any kind of thought a discussion can begin, if they can't no harm done.
For example, if I suggested 'Grey Wolf_c', I'd have to come back with:
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- He doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
DaggerPen
2013-07-19, 02:46 PM
Sometimes straight honesty is harsh. If I may, the point you've been trying to make is that all suggestions are welcome if they at least try to address the points that have been made over the years. When someone comes in with a 'What about Bob?' suggestion, your choices seem to be a simple 'No' for which you'll just get called out on for being mean or spending your time research and refuting the qualities that would make an actual discussion. Neither seems good.
Maybe make a simple template to reply to drive-bys with. Something like:
1) How did XXXXX punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Bendar's weapons hurt XXXXX?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize XXXXX?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing XXXXX?
5) How did XXXXX teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
That puts the onus of the research right back on them. If they can at least answer those with any kind of thought a discussion can begin, if they can't no harm done.
For example, if I suggested 'Grey Wolf_c', I'd have to come back with:
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Bendar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- He doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
I laughed.
And yeah, while it's ultimately Grey_Wolf's call, the template response seems like a good idea, and if he doesn't use it I might steal it for the few times I can respond to a poster first. XD
The template is a cool idea.
2) Why didn't Miko or Bendar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
In Bendar's case, it's probably because he was too drunk. Or not drunk enough. I forget how it works with him.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 03:07 PM
Maybe make a simple template to reply to drive-bys with. Something like:
1) How did XXXXX punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Bendar's weapons hurt XXXXX?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize XXXXX?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing XXXXX?
5) How did XXXXX teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
See, but if I have something like this, the temptation is oh-so-strong to make it snarky by always posting it as:
Hello, [Poster Name]
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Grey Wolf
Rakoa
2013-07-19, 03:08 PM
See, but if I have something like this, the temptation is oh-so-strong to make it snarky by always posting it as:
Hello, [Poster Name]
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Grey Wolf
I love you for your snark and hard work. Go for it, I say. :smallsmile:
ChristianSt
2013-07-19, 03:24 PM
See, but if I have something like this, the temptation is oh-so-strong to make it snarky by always posting it as:
Hello, [Poster Name]
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Grey Wolf
I think you should include:
6) Please provide some link to [insert suggestion here]. :smallbiggrin:
Maybe you should try it from time to time and see which way works better? But with information filled out, and think it would be better to sum up some points to simple: Why does it fit for the big scenes (circus, tower, teleport)? and/or: Why is your proposal more likely than the heavily templated plotted plant? :smallwink:
Throknor
2013-07-19, 03:43 PM
See, but if I have something like this, the temptation is oh-so-strong to make it snarky by always posting it as:
Hello, [Poster Name]
1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Grey Wolf
Maybe save the snark for the one's that specifically state they haven't read anything, and give the ones that otherwise present something new the benefit of the doubt. Having a set response should still help push it back without having to worry about a perceived attitude when doing so. Especially if there's a 4D 'Preferred New Suggestion Format' section in the first page.
I know it's my idea, but I think I've talked myself into it. Suggestions get sidetracked into 'attitude' discussions way more frequently than they really should. Having a canned response would also help when anyone else responds, and discussions veer into even broader areas.
But it's out there, so I'll let it go for now. Other than to say now I'm tempted to pull for the reveal being a grey wolf snagging the umbrella and running off with it, but the comic is way past that level of silliness.
Peelee
2013-07-19, 04:13 PM
I would just like to note here that I no longer believe the MitD is Zoidberg and have shifted my faith to the belief he is, in fact, Grey Wolf. I believe the abovementioned list is enough reasoning. The Escape scene is currently inexplicable, but I'll peg that on us not currently knowing that Grey Wolf can do that, though it is well in his range of powers. I can even provide a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=29299)!
Forbiddenwar
2013-07-19, 04:23 PM
I would just like to note here that I no longer believe the MitD is Zoidberg and have shifted my faith to the belief he is, in fact, Grey Wolf. I believe the abovementioned list is enough reasoning. The Escape scene is currently inexplicable, but I'll peg that on us not currently knowing that Grey Wolf can do that, though it is well in his range of powers. I can even provide a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=29299)!
Come clean, Mr Grey_Wolf_c!
Are you now or ever have been the MitD? You can't keep this information hidden forever!
:smallamused:
Edit: on second thought, the link you provided showed Grey wolf was created in 2007,
Join Date: 08-14-2007
which sadly, makes it after strip 100. It was a good try though.
Holy_Knight
2013-07-19, 05:19 PM
I have thought for some time that Kraagor's Gate would provide a good dramatic setting for MiTD to reveal itself. Given that the Gate is guarded by the most powerful monsters imaginable, then if MiTD is not a one-off monster it would seem entirely that there will be another of its kind there. With The Giant's style, there are a lot of possibilities for a dramatic reveal by the MiTD of itself there, perhaps as O-Chul is being threatened by the monster. It is also sufficiently close to what I imagine will be the climax of the plotline to be a possibility. I could, of course, be completely wrong.
No, I think this a very reasonable idea. I've thought the same for quite some time. It also has the advantage of contributing to the MiTD's own character development, as he doesn't know what he is, either.
I can't really say Rich "kept hyping the mystery". Nobody in the comic seems to be curious about what MitD is. And the other solution would be just to reveal MitD as soon as possible (which just would be wrong imo) or Rich changed what MitD was to follow a mainstream (I certainly don't think Rich would do that, and even if we would think that, the thread can only really operate under the assumption that Rich tells the truth)If you need to argue something like that, then MitD can possible be anything (maybe by surviving the Snarl he also gained some supernatural abilities? Perhaps he is a plotted plant?)Also the most common consent is that MitD can't be heavily templated. Because with enough templates, nearly anything can be MitD. So the idea is not that it is a template1 template2 template3 XYZ, but just simple a XYZ. The more stuff you need to alter the XYZ the more unlikely it is, because then it would be more and more something Rich would have invented and not something someone else did come up with.
Actually, I think O-Chul seems pretty interested in that when he is going to be debriefed by Hinjo after the escape. Belkar and Haley have seemed to express at least some interest as well during their encounter with him. And the MiTD himself is interested in being revealed, as shown by his desire to get out of the shadows on several occasions.
Certainly. But also, it is playing the odds. Think of the nature of the comic at around #100. How likely, really, is that Rich did not pick a D&D monster at the time? As always, the thread is not about to just ignore non-D&D creatures without strong evidence that we should, but being honest with ourselves, I think that the chance of MitD not being a stat'ed D&D creature are quite small.
Grey Wolf
I go back and forth on this. Your point here is reasonable, but I also think a mythological or other kind of monster could have a lot of payoff, potentially even more than an official D&D one. So I think there's a decent chance that it's a monster which could be seen as "fitting" in an adventure story like this without being native to D&D.
[Only thing to add: I would find it totally awesome if it would be Snorlax, but I don't think that will happen, for more than enough reasons.]
Whereas I will be extremely diappointed if it's a Snorlax, since it's a really poor fit for the circus scene and otherwise in terms of appearance.
But you will know more about MitD and what it can do after it emerges from the darkness than you do while it is still hidden, even if you cannot name his species.
This is at two levels. First, the reveal is not just for the readers. It will also be for, you know, the actual characters in the comic. How Roy and V react to revealed!MitD will give you a lot of new information about MitD, even if you have been following this thread.
But lets say that, somehow, you don't think that the fact it will be a big reveal to Roy and V (who are the most likely to recognise MitD on sight) matters. Lets say that I agree with your base position that the only thing that matters is that the reader, not the characters, recognise MitD.
A name is just a tag. There is many, many ways of giving you clues about how MitD is powerful with drawing alone. Even if you have no idea what a sand elemental is, the drawing clues in the comic should tell you how dangerous it is in 901 and then reinforced in 902. Even if you don't know the name "sand elemental", you will have a fairly accurate idea of the kind of things that will hurt him and the ones that won't.
Let me give you an example based exclusively on Zodar and Protean. Lets say they are the only two candidates, and the reveal comes, and it is one or the other - but you have never heard of either, or of this thread.
Option A, MitD is a large thing with a black exoskeleton that is disgustingly insectoid. You will then know that Miko and Belkar just couldn't penetrate that exoskeleton - it must be very, very hard. Roy may have to use blunt objects, rather than his greatsword.
Option B, MitD is a mass of tentacles and other yucky stuff, and his model changes in every panel. You then know that Miko's problem was fast regeneration. Roy may need to use fire/salt/acid/etc. to attack it, or just keep chopping at tentacles as they appear.
Notice how many of the MitD unknowns can be shown, rather than told, through drawing clues alone. Yes, you might not be able to put a name tag on the thing, but Rich is a great storyteller, so you will know that MitD is to be feared, and once you see what it looks like, you will be closer to understand why and how it should be feared.
Exactly. In fact, a "What IS it?!" kind of reaction from the characters when it is revealed would feel very dramatically satisfying to me, because we would finally get to see first hand just what it was that had provoked those reactions in the scenes we've been examining for so long.
As far as whether we've guessed it or not so far, I think the Protean is far and away the strongest candidate we have (I lean heavily toward some kind of shifter). But as others have said, there's no way to know for sure until the reveal, and there's still plenty of room for doubt even among the strongest contenders.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 06:07 PM
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- He doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
My SO read this over my shoulder, and is now also in the "MitD must be Grey Wolf" camp.
Sigh.
GW
Shale
2013-07-19, 06:24 PM
We're helpers!
Steven
2013-07-19, 06:25 PM
Juiblex, The Faceless Lord is stated out in the Book of Vile Darkness.
He's got a strength of 34, Int of 24, AC of 37, Can use teleport without error as a spell-like and has an Ex ability called Amorphous that says that blunt and impact weapons deal no damage to him.
I can't see anything about being immune to mind control but I may just be being blind. He's an evil outsider who hates everything and 'revels only in destruction'
It's abilities fit, I think that strength is high enough, the amorphous ability COULD be extended to explain people not being about to hurt him.... I misread it the first time and though it would work but I'm sure Rich would have more than skim read the entry if he was using it in his comic.
That said the fluff is terrible. He's not a 'one of those' he is a 'that'. He's an evil outsider that wants to destroy everything and can cast tongues so speaking common is not really surprising. I suppose the hunters could have mistaken him for a slime but... Seems unlikely.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 06:29 PM
Juiblex, The Faceless Lord is stated out in the Book of Vile Darkness.
He's got a strength of 34, Int of 24, AC of 37, Can use teleport without error as a spell-like and has an Ex ability called Amorphous that says that blunt and impact weapons deal no damage to him.
Interesting. I wouldn't ask if it were not a demon, but: can you double check that the teleport without error is unconditional? A lot of demons tend to have it, but can only cast it on themselves and up to N pounds of non-living matter.
Thanks,
Grey Wolf
Shale
2013-07-19, 06:39 PM
Checking BOVD, there's no (self only) on the teleport ability. The only big flaw I can see, beyond it being a specific entity instead of a species (easy to fix by having MITD be Jubilex's spawn) is that Jubilex is literally made of acid, and it's noted that his touch eats through metal, wood and stone.
Steven
2013-07-19, 06:48 PM
Thanks for doing that Shale, I was afk there for a bit.
We can also note that Juilbex does have tongues marked as a self only ability so it's not just that they didn't use it in that book.
rweird
2013-07-19, 07:10 PM
He's got a strength of 34, Int of 24, AC of 37, Can use teleport without error as a spell-like and has an Ex ability called Amorphous that says that blunt and impact weapons deal no damage to him.
Belkar's daggers are piercing, Milko's swords would be slashing, as a paper cut would be. the MitD to my knowledge never has been subjected to a piercing attack. Does he have DR (I think most demon lords have a fairly high DR).
Lord Raziere
2013-07-19, 07:17 PM
Hm.
I've been thinking
if MitD:
-might've caused the Earthquake via a spell or supernatural ability
-might've caused the rain via some ability he didn't know about…
then maybe his powers are tied to nature in some way? digging deep down inside oneself to get power sounds a lot like nature magic to me.
this of course doesn't explain the Escape thing. well at least not in a literal sense. in a more metaphorical sense, it could be like "flight or fight" y'know? and that Escape thing is only expressing the "flight" part of nature.
of course, this is probably a flimsy theory, but to me it ties in a lot of things, as MitD just seems like the type to have nature magic like that.
Shale
2013-07-19, 08:53 PM
Belkar's daggers are piercing, Milko's swords would be slashing, as a paper cut would be. the MitD to my knowledge never has been subjected to a piercing attack. Does he have DR (I think most demon lords have a fairly high DR).
DR 30/+5. Pretty tough to get through.
Steven
2013-07-19, 09:02 PM
Juiblex also has a +31 bluff check listed under skills along with knowledge (the planes) + 20, Knowledge (arcana) + 33, Knowledge (religion) +20 which would account for various bits and pieces quite nicely.
Rakoa
2013-07-19, 09:13 PM
It's also worth noting that Juiblex is known to kill foes by engulfing them, which could be interpreted as devouring them. In addition, I can find no mention of Juiblex being immune to mind affecting abilities. At 9 feet tall, I think he is within just the right height range to be a large creature hunched over beneath an umbrella.
rweird
2013-07-19, 09:13 PM
DR 30/+5. Pretty tough to get through.
I think that'd be 15/Epic or 15/magic, or something like 15/good and cold iron with the 3.5 update. I think that would probably work.
Rakoa
2013-07-19, 09:21 PM
Reading a little bit more, I think it's reasonable that the hunters could mistake Juiblex for an Ooze. After all, they would be expected to know about Oozes but not necessarily a Demon Lord of Evil Oozey Death and what not, which would make their reaction of astonishment to his ability to speak Common not out of place.
Needless to say, a 9 foot tall pile of slime is sufficiently horrifying to nauseate a circus crowd. And the Wizard, unlike the Hunter's, could be more knowledgeable and realize that this is no ordinary Ooze.
I believe that his AC, DR, and ability to teleport was already explained at length.
It is also worth noting that The Book of Vile Darkness, in which Juiblex is statted out, was printed in 2002.
Crusher
2013-07-19, 09:32 PM
Hmm. You know, I did kinda feel like whoever it was who suggested a somehow sentient ooze in the last thread got slightly short shrift, because with a high CR one you've probably got everything covered except the Escape Scene without even having to do any digging. The downside, of course, are the little things like how it talks or has eyes.
Juiblex is a very interesting suggestion. It technically has been suggested, indirectly, before. A few threads back someone was talking about demon lords in general and raised the idea that it might be the child of a demon lord, and I think Orcus and Juiblex were specifically mentioned but I don't think anything ever came of it.
Anyway, looking at Juiblex himself, it's a major demon lord (not especially highly regarded or famous because it's not big on the whole "marshaling an army/conquest/scheming thing" and thus generally ignored, but its one of the oldest and personally its quite powerful).
I've never seen stats for it past 2.5 so I hadn't really considered it, but it'd be a fit for all the reasons a sentient ooze would be.
Speaking generally, since I haven't seen stats for it:
- It has to be near epic and really it'd be a travesty if it wasn't epic
- Given that power level and its nature, it should be gigantically strong and extremely difficult to damage.
- Its essentially one of the more ooze-like Lovecraftian major baddies (Shub-Niggurath comes to mind) which is going to make it pretty weird looking.
- It almost certainly has the requisite Teleport abilities. While demons and devils almost always have that annoying self+50 lbs limitation, demon and devil lords typically don't.
On the downside...
- Its HUGE. I'm not sure exactly what size it would be, but there's no way its small enough to fit in the box or under the umbrella.
- Its not "one of those" because its a unique demon lord. And its not a demon lord that just happens to be the strongest one of its particular kind (which was the deal with that Gorilla demon lord a bit ago), its one of a kind. There's really nothing else like it.
- Its incredibly ancient so while it possible there was a parent, it would have been eons ago.
- Finally, its an "it" not a he. Since its an ooze it doesn't really have a gender. If anything, it'd probably consider itself a "her" since its firing out offspring almost constantly.
If someone can find stats on a "son of Juiblex", and since Juiblex pops out offspring like there's no tomorrow this is entirely possible, it would be worth a look.
Steven
2013-07-19, 09:34 PM
Soooo.
Juiblex
Pros:
High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.
Looks enough like a slime that it might have confused the big game hunters (I find this unlikely but it could work)
Cons:
Unique creature (see above)
No explanation I can see for the earthquake.
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Doesn't need to sleep or eat.
Have I missed anything?
Rakoa
2013-07-19, 09:36 PM
Crusher, Juiblex is classed as a Large creature, and the Book of Vile Darkness refers to him as "he". You're correct that Juiblex being a unique creature is an issue.
Steven
2013-07-19, 09:38 PM
On the downside, its HUGE. I'm not sure exactly what size it would be, but there's no way its small enough to fit in the box or under the umbrella. Additionally, its not "one of those" because its a unique demon lord. And its not a demon lord that just happens to be the strongest one of its particular kind (which was the deal with that Gorilla demon lord a bit ago), its one of a kind. There's really nothing else like it. Also, its incredibly ancient so while it possible there was a parent, it would have been eons ago. Finally, its an "it" not a he. Since its an ooze it doesn't really have a gender.
If someone can find stats on a "son of Juiblex", and since Juiblex pops out offspring like there's no tomorrow this is entirely possible, it would be worth a look.
Actually it's listed as Large and it's referred to as a he constantly in the book of vile darkness.
Edit:
Oh and his amorphous ability means he can slip through spaces that only a tiny creature could fit through.. Suggests that there would be no problem fitting in the box or under the umbrella.
He is listed as having glowing red eyes covering his body though.
Crusher
2013-07-19, 09:40 PM
Hmm, interesting. I missed all those posts about Book of Vile Darkness (published in 2002, which is handy). Lets see...
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 09:43 PM
Soooo.
Juiblex
Pros:
High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.
Looks enough like a slime that it might have confused the big game hunters (I find this unlikely but it could work)
Cons:
Unique creature (see above)
No explanation I can see for the earthquake.
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Doesn't need to sleep or eat.
Have I missed anything?
The one con I think we need to add (other than "too many eyes" that you mention in a later post) is that as per Rich's words on the subject, demons can't really change alignment to Good, since they are personifications of their plane of existence.
Grey Wolf
Rakoa
2013-07-19, 09:44 PM
Soooo.
Cons:
Unique creature (see above)
No explanation I can see for the earthquake.
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Doesn't need to sleep or eat.
Have I missed anything?
Well, on the note of eating things, the MitD leaves bite marks. Juiblex looks to dissolve most of his food, not chew with physical teeth. And you already mentioned the issue of the eyes.
It also looks like Juiblex has no way to not deal slimey acid damage to anything in contact with him. That would make things like crayon drawing, playing Go, or holding an umbrella difficult.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 09:59 PM
Well, on the note of eating things, the MitD leaves bite marks. Juiblex looks to dissolve most of his food, not chew with physical teeth. And you already mentioned the issue of the eyes.
It also looks like Juiblex has no way to not deal slimey acid damage to anything in contact with him. That would make things like crayon drawing, playing Go, or holding an umbrella difficult.
Good point. RC's complain is that he breaks stuff given to him )like his action figures), not that he dissolves them.
GW
Crusher
2013-07-19, 09:59 PM
That's an interesting set of stats. I've never seen "him" described as a "him" before, or as being anything less than enormously huge.
Assuming DR30/+5 didn't get completed neutered in 3.5 (and it sounds like it wasn't. I can't imagine it got demoted all the way down to DR15/+1. DR15/epic would be more than adequate), Juiblex technically meets all 3 tests.
- Strong and durable enough for the tower scene
- Very weird looking for circus scene
- Teleport without error
However, as mentioned, he's unique, and that Acid ability is really problematic. Unless Miko succeeded on multiple DC41 reflex saves both her weapons should have been instantly destroyed. And his return hit almost certainly would have done an enormous (though probably not fatal, at least to Miko, not sure about the horse) amount of acid damage. Not sure about the floor, however. I mean, the acid can't dissolve *everything* or Juiblex would always be slowly sinking into the ground. Plus, yeah... the fluff is just totally wrong.
rweird
2013-07-19, 10:14 PM
For DR, the update says CR 16+ creatures in general should have DR of 15, and require two qualities to overcome it (for example: Good AND Cold Iron, Epic AND Good, etc, not sure if an errata changes it), still, I'd believe Milko might not penetrate that, though the acid is a good point.
Steven
2013-07-19, 10:39 PM
Just to be clear, I don't think Juiblex is a good candidate in any way except that under the rules it could explain everything require for the big three.
Everything else from acid to fluff just makes it unlikely.
originalginger
2013-07-19, 11:06 PM
I am not aware of a D&D version of jabberwock - I'll need a link. The original has been proposed before, and is found in section 3d.
GW
From "Land Beyond the Magic Mirror" module, written by Gygax himself. Released in 1983.
http://www.ekkaia.org/rpg/dnd/land_beyond_mirror.pdf
Page 19-20
The Jabberwocky
CR 8; Huge Aberration;
HD 15d8+45; hp 112; Init + 1
Speed 40 ft; AC 17 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +10 natural)
Atk +19 melee (2d8+10, bite), +14 melee (2d4+5, claw);
Face 10 ft. by 20 ft; Reach 20 ft.
SA Charge; SQ Damage Reduction 10/+3 or vorpal; SR 16; AL CN; SV Fort +12, Ref +4,
Will +10; Str 30, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15.
Skills and Feats
Intimidate +14, Listen +14, Spot +14, Wilderness Lore +13, Alertness, Great Fortitude, Power Attack.
SA—Charge
If a jabberwocky gains the initiative at the beginning of combat, it will charge. This doubles its speed, and allows it to make all three of its attacks at its full melee bonus (+19). This is a full attack which provokes an attack of opportunity, but increases the damage of each attack by +2.
The jabberwocky is a huge, almost ostrich like creature. It has two large legs with cruel claws, a sinuous, snaking neck, and a round head with two large, bulbous eyes. Its mouth is filled with long sharp teeth, the foremost two of which almost resemble axe blades. Like all monsters who dwell in the Tugley Wood, the jabberwocky is a nonesuch. It is known for nothing but the ferocity of its attacks, its sheer stupidity, and the noise of its breathing. This bipedal monster appears rather reptilian. It has a great horn on its head, and it attacks either with this weapon or by smashing down opponents with its huge, powerful legs. Its forelegs are small and weak, and these are not used at all.
I see a few problems right off the bat:
Huge Aberration - By 1st ed standards that means 12-25 feet in some dimension, though it can mean a 20 foot snake that is only 2 feet across, or a 12x12x12 cube. In this case though, the 'ostrich like' description makes me think he would be quite tall, unless he is constantly holding the snaking neck near the ground.
Only a challenge rating 8, though that is Gygax challenge rating, and Gygax wrote horrifying meat grinder adventures. The module is designed for level 9-12, which was borderline epic level relatively speaking, and I remember our party of 6 level 15 characters getting brutally slaughtered between the Jabberwocky and Bandersnatch battles. But we were like 12 so we probably sucked, and who knows if the DM was even running the game correctly.
Intelligence and Wisdom are both a moderately high 12, not spectacular, but not to shabby either. However, it is described as stupid in the fluff. Not sure the consensus on his intelligence and wisdom after the last couple strips.
It can't use its front legs effectively, making pulling difficult, so there is that.
Circus
Certainly a strange creature, with a winding neck, giant teeth, a huge horn and bulbous eyes, The highish Charisma (15) could account for the 'somehow beautiful' remark.
Tower
Potentially could do 26 damage with his melee attack, though if "hitting light" I think that should be considered the lowest possible roll, 12.
Escape
Here is where it gets sticky, since there is no real way to account for it.
Also as a note - I could very well be misinterpreting the stats, it has been well over a decade since I actually rolled dice in a 1st edition game, and haven't reviewed the rules, so I am just going by memory.
Edit: And, as it turns out much of that is conversion to 3rd edition... I have the actual module around somewhere, so I will attempt to dig that out and amend the stats.
Tathum
2013-07-19, 11:10 PM
Or the flumphs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). They're a running gag that many readers probably weren't familiar with and newer readers probably still aren't if they don't read the boards. Without knowing what they are it's possible to pick up that they are soft, out-of-place, and not particularly dangerous. They're even revealed to be not evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html).
Just realized that the fact that Rich knows what Flumps are is proof that he knows the Fiend Folio ... along with Creature Catalogue from 1st Ed. Gonna go grab my copy...
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-19, 11:27 PM
(Thanks for the update on the jabberwock)
Just realized that the fact that Rich knows what Flumps are is proof that he knows the Fiend Folio ... along with Creature Catalogue from 1st Ed. Gonna go grab my copy...
The guy worked for TSR. He wrote splatbooks. This thread assumes that he is familiar with every bloody thing published by TSR and most of what was published by 3rd companies as a matter of course.
GW
Tathum
2013-07-19, 11:38 PM
(Thanks for the update on the jabberwock)
The guy worked for TSR. He wrote splatbooks. This thread assumes that he is familiar with every bloody thing published by TSR and most of what was published by 3rd companies as a matter of course.
GW
That cheeky bastard. He's always one step ahead of us.
Tathum
2013-07-20, 12:01 AM
So, if anyone ever has the chance to rummage through the old Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, or Creature Catalogue from the old 1st edition...
Don't, I forgot how stupid alot of those old monsters were. Can't believe someone ever thought a 'Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing' or a 'Sussurus' was a good idea for a monster.
And, pretty much the only things I can find that even come close to being useful ideas are Solars and Planetars. Both can cause Earthquakes, cast Limited Wish / Teleport without Error, have very high DR (can only be hit by +4 or greater weapons in old 1st edition lingo), and had very high strengths (Solars have a 24 strength, which was as strong as a Storm Giant back in the day).
However, they are both beautiful with high charisma (can't make people sick with their appearance), have glowing BLUE eyes (instead of the yellow of MitD), don't seem very ravenous for stew, and are basically just very high ranking Devas. Doubt Red Cloak would think a young Planetar or even one with amnesia would want to go along with him.
Gonna keep looking through old modules, though.
Oh, and I got to reread a creature entry for the Brain Collector. A creature that subdues, uses surgical tools to remove the skull cap of its prey, and devours the brain whole where it is stored in one of its cranial lumps to fuel spell use.
Go D&D.
Personal favorite: The Reflector. Being made of highly polished silvery metal that just reflect spells and is immune to most attacks. Kill it, and the shell dulls and cracks, revealing nothing but pink, brainy material filling the interior.
Who thought of this stuff!?!
originalginger
2013-07-20, 12:12 AM
Stats as originally written for the Jabberwocky
(AC -6; MV 15”; HD 15; hp 95; #AT 1 or 2;
D 5-20 or 2-12/2-12;
SA charge of 30’ or more doubles speed,
allows all 3 attacks, and causes +1/die rolled for damage; SD
25% magic resistance).
I forgot how bare bones 1st ed. AD&D was. Anyway, 5-20 damage is pretty low, especially considering the HP of 3.5. characters. I don't think the Jabberwocky is accidentally going to smash anyone through a wall, and there is still no chance of the Escape scene happening.
Fluff is almost identical, and without Int. and Wis. stats, we can assume that it is just a huge stupid beast, probably incapable of vocalizations beyond roars, hisses and grunts. The description could still indicate an unidentifiable 'it' that can still be seen as beautiful, though that is open to interpretation.
All and all, I am going with a well below average fit. Bandersnatch, Humpty Dumpty, the Mad Tea Party, The Caterpiller, and all the rest are just as bad or worse matches as well.
Sorry, Scifne, I was genuinely hoping you had a winner. If the MitD was potentially an 'Alice' creature it would have trilled my to no end.
thereaper
2013-07-20, 03:39 AM
My SO read this over my shoulder, and is now also in the "MitD must be Grey Wolf" camp.
Sigh.
GW
And here I thought it might have been a bit insulting.
Does that mean I can laugh at it now?
Also, if Grey Wolf's SO believes he is the MitD, it must be true! After all, who else would be in a position to know?
Come clean, Mr Grey_Wolf_c!
Are you now or ever have been the MitD? You can't keep this information hidden forever!
:smallamused:
Edit: on second thought, the link you provided showed Grey wolf was created in 2007,
which sadly, makes it after strip 100. It was a good try though.
He joined the forum in 2007; that doesn't mean he didn't exist before 2007.
Indeed, he may have joined the forum specifically as one of Rich's hints!
Notice how, for example, he didn't answer your query as to whether he was the MitD or not! It's yet more evidence!
We finally see the truth, and it was right in front of us all along!
Grey Wolf is the MitD!
Forbiddenwar
2013-07-20, 10:22 AM
He joined the forum in 2007; that doesn't mean he didn't exist before 2007.
Indeed, he may have joined the forum specifically as one of Rich's hints!
Notice how, for example, he didn't answer your query as to whether he was the MitD or not! It's yet more evidence!
We finally see the truth, and it was right in front of us all along!
Grey Wolf is the MitD!
Can you find concrete evidence of a Grey_Wolf_c published prior to 2004?
Is this joke running a bit long?
pwning doodes
2013-07-20, 01:26 PM
For example, if I suggested 'Grey Wolf_c', I'd have to come back with:
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- He doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
Can we add this to the "Light-Hearted Suggestions" section in the OP? Pretty pretty please with a big bucket of stew?
thereaper
2013-07-20, 02:43 PM
Can you find concrete evidence of a Grey_Wolf_c published prior to 2004?
Is this joke running a bit long?
Technically, he doesn't have to have been published before 2007, he just has to have existed by strip 100.
As evidence for that, I point to the fact that if Grey Wolf was less than 4 years old when he joined the forum (which would be necessary for him to have not existed by strip 100), then it's unlikely he would have been allowed to use the forum in the first place, let alone do so properly.
Also, we now know that he has a significant other, which would be very odd if he was less than 10 years old.
Possibly. However, it's funny, and it's a joke we really should have come up with about 2 threads ago. In effect, we're making up for lost time.
Kornaki
2013-07-20, 04:33 PM
Also, we now know that he has a significant other, which would be very odd if he was less than 10 years old.
We have people speculating that the MitD doesn't know how many pelvises he has, do you really think taking his word on the number of wives he has is going to work? :smalltongue:
thereaper
2013-07-20, 05:23 PM
Is Grey Wolf actually married? More importantly, is that even an appropriate topic (his thread or not)? I vote that it is not appropriate.
The fact that the MitD may have more than one pelvis (or not know what one is) does not say anything about his mating habits (or at least, I hope not).
Verditude
2013-07-20, 08:50 PM
The paper cut on the tongue (#375) might indicate DR/Good, since the letter was written by the high priest of Thor. Assuming in this universe that Thor is either Neutral Good or Lawful Good (he's Chaotic Good in 3.0 Deities and Demigods) it might indicate DR/Lawful. Makes more sense to me than his own natural weapons overcoming his DR when he eats the letter.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-20, 09:23 PM
The paper cut on the tongue (#375) might indicate DR/Good, since the letter was written by the high priest of Thor. Assuming in this universe that Thor is either Neutral Good or Lawful Good (he's Chaotic Good in 3.0 Deities and Demigods) it might indicate DR/Lawful. Makes more sense to me than his own natural weapons overcoming his DR when he eats the letter.
For a magical weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy)to be Lawful or Good, it need to be at least a +3. There is no way they would use +1 (axiomatic) or +1 (Holy) Paper for everyday correspondence, unless they can afford to just give away a piece of paper with an enchantment valued at 18000 gp.
On the other hand, any attack from an epic creature is automatically epic, no additional cost needed.
Grey Wolf
rweird
2013-07-20, 09:40 PM
On the other hand, any attack from an epic creature is automatically epic, no additional cost needed.
Grey Wolf
I'm pretty sure that it requires it to have DR/epic to overcome epic DR, like DR/magic.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-20, 09:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that it requires it to have DR/epic to overcome epic DR, like DR/magic.
Interesting. Was not aware of it, but that is indeed what the rules seem to say. Weird. Oh well, not important in any discussion of self-inflicted wounds. Obviously any creature with DR/Epic will have the DR/Epic required to overcome its DR/Epic.
Grey Wolf
Verditude
2013-07-20, 09:55 PM
For a magical weapon to be Lawful or Good, it need to be at least a +3. There is no way they would use +1 (axiomatic) or +1 (Holy) Paper for everyday correspondence, unless they can afford to just give away a piece of paper with an enchantment valued at 18000 gp.
On the other hand, any attack from an epic creature is automatically epic, no additional cost needed.
There are other ways for a creature or item's attacking capabilities to be treated as good-aligned for purposes of overcoming DR. While not a RAW method for such, it seems reasonable that direct personal contact with the high priest of a good deity (such as being written on) might bestow a Good alignment on the paper with no need for enchanting it as a Holy weapon, in the OOTSverse.
If we're making RAW arguments to define what is and is not a reasonable theory explaining the MitD's DR, I don't think it's possible/makes sense to define the papercut as an accidental attack against himself. In order for the MitD to make an attack, he has to intend to, if we're resolving his actions by the rules; the unintentional nature of the papercut seems to rule it out as an attack, and thus his ability to overcome epic DR with his attacks doesn't come into play.
Overall, I think both possibilities for the DR have about the same level of RAW legitimacy (that is, some basis, but they both run into snags eventually.)
JackRackham
2013-07-20, 10:29 PM
I read up on the Zodar and it seems like a really good fit, but is anyone else bothered by Thrice Spoken: 'no pain, fear, joy or other emotion has issued from a Zodar?" (No to mention 18 Wis and 18 Int)
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-20, 10:52 PM
There are other ways for a creature or item's attacking capabilities to be treated as good-aligned for purposes of overcoming DR. While not a RAW method for such, it seems reasonable that direct personal contact with the high priest of a good deity (such as being written on) might bestow a Good alignment on the paper with no need for enchanting it as a Holy weapon, in the OOTSverse.
You are entitled to your beliefs, of course, but this thread requires evidence. There is no hint that just being in the presence of a high priest converts everyday objects into Holy objects, nor that the letter was ever touched by the high priest other than to sign it, if at that. I think that your assumptions are completely impossible, myself.
As to a the paper becoming an improvised weapon - well, you don't seem to like it, but it's RAW that any object can be by definition an improvised weapon if used to harm. It might be a very pathetic improvised weapon - I think I have suggested a 1d1 weapon in the past - but it is still a weapon. And thus in the hands of an epic creature it will pierce his defences even if nothing else can.
I read up on the Zodar and it seems like a really good fit, but is anyone else bothered by Thrice Spoken: 'no pain, fear, joy or other emotion has issued from a Zodar?" (No to mention 18 Wis and 18 Int)
That's the nature of lampshades (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging). They tell the reader that the author is aware of the problem, and that you might as well go ahead and accept it is, and there ain't nothin' to complain about.
As to the scores: well, the easiest example is the Empress of Blood (adult red dragon: Int 16, Wis 19, and quite clearly two sandwiches short of a picnic). In OotS, a creature can act in a manner unmatched by its mental scores.
Grey Wolf
Crusher
2013-07-20, 11:06 PM
That having been said, there's really no indication that the MitD actually took damage from the paper cut. I'm presumably a level 1 commoner (though I have taught archery and fencing at camp. Perhaps I'm a level 1 warrior) with 1d4 or so hp. I've suffered multiple paper cuts over the course of my life but have never dropped into negative hp as a result (I assume I'd lose consciousness and notice it).
I know this has been discussed before, and I get that the difference is that the paper cut caused pain whereas Belkar's attacks weren't even noticed, but I think the difference is circumstance.
While talking with Belkar and Haley, MitD was chatting with two brand new people which was probably very exciting and distracting. With a big enough HP pool, Belkar might have actually been doing slight amounts of damage but MitD was so excited he didn't even notice them. Meeting new people is a really big deal for MitD.
Paper cuts typically hurt because you're by yourself, quietly paying a bill or shuffling some papers or whatnot. There's little else going on to distract you, plus its a surprise, so it seems to hurt a lot.
Similarly, a headache that seems minor during the day suddenly becomes all encompassing and sleep preventing when you're in bed. During the day, you're living you life, going to school or work, talking to people, eating meals, etc. At night, you're lying in the dark with nothing to focus on except a pain in your head. I think that's the difference.
JackRackham
2013-07-21, 01:23 AM
That's the nature of lampshades (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging). They tell the reader that the author is aware of the problem, and that you might as well go ahead and accept it is, and there ain't nothin' to complain about.
Grey Wolf
To be a lampshade, however, the author would have had to point out the incongruity. He hasn't hinted that MitD' emotions are incongruous, that I can remember. There were the initial (pre-100) 'look how evil he isn't' moments, but nothing to suggest that the presence of emotion itself was strange. Granted, that could be coming in the future.
ChristianSt
2013-07-21, 03:44 AM
The paper cut on the tongue (#375) might indicate DR/Good, since the letter was written by the high priest of Thor. Assuming in this universe that Thor is either Neutral Good or Lawful Good (he's Chaotic Good in 3.0 Deities and Demigods) it might indicate DR/Lawful. Makes more sense to me than his own natural weapons overcoming his DR when he eats the letter.
[Disclaimer: I don't play D&D, so if I say something wrong, I'm sorry.]
If you say that piece of paper has an alignment, I think Miko's and Belkar's weapons should have an alignment, too (unless you can make a really good argument why a random piece of paper should have an alignment and weapons that get regularly used shouldn't).
And then DR/alignment would be forced to be DR/(Lawful Evil), DR/(Chaotic Good) or DR/Neutral (of any kind), since all other types would have been overcome by either Miko (Lawful Good) or Belkar (Chaotic Evil).
As to the scores: well, the easiest example is the Empress of Blood (adult red dragon:
*cough* You mean Very Young red dragon?
(It's possible that her inability to cast spells is due to a Charisma penalty, but that strikes me as significantly less likely than that it's about her age category. The joke about her trying to increase her size category so she can cast spells makes little sense if a dragon of her actual age category should be able to cast spells--and there's no evidence that she's an adult.)
While I doubt Rich feels limited by this, generally, for any D&D creature, ability scores form a 16-point range (3 to 18, for humans). The listed number represents the midpoint of that range. So, for a very young red dragon (listed Intelligence 12, listed Wisdom 13), you would generate Intelligence and Wisdom as for a human, then add +2 to each of them. For an adult red dragon (listed Intelligence 16, listed Wisdom 19), you would generate Intelligence and Wisdom as for a human, then add +6 to Intelligence and +8 to Wisdom. If the creature being generated exists to be a speed-bump, you can just treat the listed scores as default, and if you're generating a bunch of first-level human commoners and warriors for a crowd scene, you can just treat them as having all 10s and 11s.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-21, 09:45 AM
To be a lampshade, however, the author would have had to point out the incongruity. He hasn't hinted that MitD' emotions are incongruous, that I can remember. There were the initial (pre-100) 'look how evil he isn't' moments, but nothing to suggest that the presence of emotion itself was strange. Granted, that could be coming in the future.
Granted, but you missed my point. What Rich lampshaded is that MitD can talk - and in the case of the Zodar, that means that for some lampshaded, unexplained reason, he does not have the "Thrice Spoken" characteristic: he can talk as much as he wants, in any tone he feels like, because that is a "subclause" of the Thrice Spoken, which he is missing.
Grey Wolf
Chambers
2013-07-21, 11:33 AM
I don't know if it's already been mentioned yet in these threads but this website (http://ant.hivemind.net/monsters.html) has a database of all monsters published in D&D across all editions (according to the sites claim). I haven't downloaded the file to check it out but it might be worthwhile to cross-reference the pre-3rd edition monsters that have been updated to 3rd edition against the front runners for MiTD.
SavageWombat
2013-07-21, 01:25 PM
1) A lot of monsters (mostly outsiders) give any weapon they wield a DR-bypassing property.
2) Some monsters with DR (I forget the exact rule) bypass DR as if they had that property. I think it was metals.
Ergo - either the paper was some kind of outsider, or we need to know more about Miko's pouch.
JackRackham
2013-07-21, 02:27 PM
Granted, but you missed my point. What Rich lampshaded is that MitD can talk - and in the case of the Zodar, that means that for some lampshaded, unexplained reason, he does not have the "Thrice Spoken" characteristic: he can talk as much as he wants, in any tone he feels like, because that is a "subclause" of the Thrice Spoken, which he is missing.
Grey Wolf
To be honest, I didn't even catch that first line of Thrice Spoken. I didn't realize they could literally only "speak" thrice.
rweird
2013-07-21, 03:44 PM
2) Some monsters with DR (I forget the exact rule) bypass DR as if they had that property. I think it was metals.
Its DR/Magic and DR/Epic, not materials.
Rakoa
2013-07-21, 06:57 PM
I was just going through the spreadsheet on the website that Chambers pointed out. A bit hard on the eyes, but damn is there a lot of monsters in there. I now realize the difficulty, though, of this monster hunt. I found several that seemed like very good candidates, but that evil Teleportation scene screws them up every time.
That, and also finding a monster of reasonable size to fit under the umbrella is no small feat. This is definitely much harder than I would have thought, but fear not! For I shall continue onward.
Scifne
2013-07-22, 02:24 PM
Stats ...
I forgot how bare bones 1st ed. AD&D was. Anyway, 5-20 damage is pretty low, especially considering the HP of 3.5. characters. I don't think the Jabberwocky is accidentally going to smash anyone through a wall, and there is still no chance of the Escape scene ....
All and all, I am going with a well below average fit. Bandersnatch, Humpty Dumpty, the Mad Tea Party, The Caterpiller, and all the rest are just as bad or worse matches as well.
Sorry, Scifne, I was genuinely hoping you had a winner. If the MitD was potentially an 'Alice' creature it would have trilled my to no end.
Thanks. I will bow out now. Im not a good fit with the thread. I wish you all luck.
Gift Jeraff
2013-07-24, 01:49 PM
The MitD has a forehead, two arms, can grow a third arm on his forehead, and became super-smart by wanting to be..? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15684492&postcount=51) :smallconfused:
:smalltongue::smallwink: :smallsmile: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: :smallredface: :smallamused:
:smallannoyed: :smallsigh: :smallmad: :smallfurious: :smallfrown: :smalleek::redcloak::nale::smallyuk:
rweird
2013-07-24, 02:03 PM
If it is anything more than a "you don't know what it can do" comment, I think it points to Hagunemnon.
Out of curiosity, did the Hagunemnon exist in earlier editions?
It's not anything more than a "you don't know what it can do" comment.
On an unrelated note (and not aimed at Gift Jeraff, who does not appear to have been suggesting anything to the contrary), while Grey Wolf can sometimes be grumpy, I can totally sympathize with said grumpiness, considering he has curated six-and-a-bit threads in which people have repeatedly suggested in total seriousness and argued adamantly for "tarrasque," "grue" "Snarl Jr.," and, "Something Rich made up and played a word game with to pretend he didn't make it up."
Porthos
2013-07-24, 02:28 PM
Out of curiosity, did the Hagunemnon exist in earlier editions?
I have no idea if this has been repeatedly said or not, but Wikipedia suggests that it was introduced in the Epic Level Handbook (2002) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_3.0_edition_monsters# WTC_88169_-_Epic_Level_Handbook_.282002.29).
allenw
2013-07-24, 10:40 PM
I have no idea if this has been repeatedly said or not, but Wikipedia suggests that it was introduced in the Epic Level Handbook (2002) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_3.0_edition_monsters# WTC_88169_-_Epic_Level_Handbook_.282002.29).
And it's based on the slightly-differently-spelled Haggunenon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker's_Guid e_to_the_Galaxy#Haggunenons) from the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which were first introduced on BBC Radio 4, 12 April 1978.
allenw
2013-07-24, 10:43 PM
The MitD has a forehead, two arms, can grow a third arm on his forehead, and became super-smart by wanting to be..? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15684492&postcount=51) :smallconfused:
:smalltongue::smallwink: :smallsmile: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: :smallredface: :smallamused:
:smallannoyed: :smallsigh: :smallmad: :smallfurious: :smallfrown: :smalleek::redcloak::nale::smallyuk:
You're ignoring the possibility that he already has two arms growing out of his forehead (distinct from an unknown number of other arms elsewhere), but could grow a third forehead-arm if he wanted to.
Porthos
2013-07-24, 10:49 PM
And it's based on the slightly-differently-spelled Haggunenon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_races_and_species_in_The_Hitchhiker's_Guid e_to_the_Galaxy#Haggunenons) from the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which were first introduced on BBC Radio 4, 12 April 1978.
You know, I thought the name sounded familiar. But I couldn't figure out why.
The fact that I haven't listened to the HHGttG Radio episodes in ages probably is a reason why. :smallwink:
Conte_Vincero
2013-07-25, 07:46 AM
You know, I thought the name sounded familiar. But I couldn't figure out why.
The fact that I haven't listened to the HHGttG Radio episodes in ages probably is a reason why. :smallwink:
This opens up a WHOLE new avenue of possiblities, has anyone got stats for the Ravenous Bug-Blatter beast of Traal.
EDIT: Re-read the first post, and it's probably copyrighted, but could a potential D&D version not have copyright issues?
Forbiddenwar
2013-07-25, 09:45 AM
This opens up a WHOLE new avenue of possiblities, has anyone got stats for the Ravenous Bug-Blatter beast of Traal.
EDIT: Re-read the first post, and it's probably copyrighted, but could a potential D&D version not have copyright issues?
This creature is so mind-bogglingly stupid that it assumes that if someone cannot see it, then it cannot see the person.
MitD doesn't seem to act like he can't see anyone. Since no one can see him, he should think he can't see anyone either.
halfeye
2013-07-25, 10:32 AM
Um, I have a candidate monster, I hope you don't mind.
It's one that someone else thought of, so it's not my original thought.
It's the Jabberwocky.
The thing is early on The MitD says "I was always in the wood" or words to that effect. He says that his Father eats much more than he does. He also doesn't see Gates.
The thing that relates these three factors to the Jabberwocky is that one of the descriptions of the D&D Jabberwocky posted earlier in this thread contains the information that they are generated spontaneously in woods containing Gates to the chaos realms, which would make a Jabberwocky's "Father" a chaos Gate, and also mean that a Jabberwocky wouldn't see Gates as Gates.
DaggerPen
2013-07-25, 10:34 AM
How do you explain the Jabberwocky teleporting O-Chul and V to safety?
halfeye
2013-07-25, 10:54 AM
How do you explain the Jabberwocky teleporting O-Chul and V to safety?
I am not sure about that, maybe it's so inately magical whatever it wants happens?
In many ways it seems to me that that ought to have been the action of some other being.
I could easily see it having been the IFCC, except that they say don't operate in the material plane, and the Giant said that the MitD did it, which makes it a lot more puzzling.
However, all the Gate puzzle bits fit the Jabberwocky a lot better than they're probably going to fit anything else.
If it is the Jabberwocky, I hope the image isn't based on the Tenniel one.
rweird
2013-07-25, 11:04 AM
I am not sure about that, maybe it's so inately magical whatever it wants happens?
In many ways it seems to me that that ought to have been the action of some other being.
I could easily see it having been the IFCC, except that they say don't operate in the material plane, and the Giant said that the MitD did it, which makes it a lot more puzzling.
However, all the Gate puzzle bits fit the Jabberwocky a lot better than they're probably going to fit anything else.
If it is the Jabberwocky, I hope the image isn't based on the Tenniel one.
We actually have been over the Jabberwock just a few pages ago, the only D&D version isn't really strong enough to hit people through walls, and has no magical ability to teleport. Is there any source that says the Jabberwock has the ability to teleport people?
hamishspence
2013-07-25, 11:13 AM
We actually have been over the Jabberwocky just a few pages ago, the only D&D version isn't really strong enough to hit people through walls, and has no magical ability to teleport.
The poem is called Jabberwocky. The creature is called a Jabberwock in it. Did the 2nd ed or earlier source with D&D rules for it, follow that convention though?
Diadem
2013-07-25, 11:13 AM
Why is everybody so set on the MiTD being able to teleport, specifically. I always interpreted that comic as the MiTD using a wish-like spell or ability.
rweird
2013-07-25, 11:17 AM
Why is everybody so set on the MiTD being able to teleport, specifically. I always interpreted that comic as the MiTD using a wish-like spell or ability.
I meant teleport loosely in "instantaneous transport", not the D&D spell (I think others did too), Wish would suffice for that. I believe the section about the escape even states that Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision fits better, though Teleport could suffice. I agree that Wish or the like would fit better.
hamishspence: I know the poem, but no-where in the poem does it mention the Jabberwock's ability to teleport people. I was wondering if anything that mentioned it gave it such an ability. Sorry for the incorrect name, feel really stupid now.
halfeye
2013-07-25, 11:19 AM
We actually have been over the Jabberwocky just a few pages ago, the only D&D version isn't really strong enough to hit people through walls, and has no magical ability to teleport. Is there any source that says the Jabberwocky has the ability to teleport people?
I know very little about D&D.
That bit about Jabberwockys just materialising out of magic in the regions around Gates was not discussed in detail the previous time. It strikes me as very relevant to a lot of clues about the MitD, maybe something else fits that as well, but it seems unlikely, even if there are tens of thousands of other monsters.
I would be very happy to have some other party given credit for the teleportation of O-Chul and V, especially as there were no apparent magic effects around MitD at the time, but I reluctantly accept that that is canon at this time.
Irish Musician
2013-07-25, 11:37 AM
Why is everybody so set on the MiTD being able to teleport, specifically. I always interpreted that comic as the MiTD using a wish-like spell or ability.
We aren't set on it, but it is just one of a few explanations that we have for how V and O-Chul got out of there.
SavageWombat
2013-07-25, 11:39 AM
Wish-like abilities also seem to be very few in practice. Although so are the teleports.
allenw
2013-07-26, 07:59 AM
hamishspence: I know the poem, but no-where in the poem does it mention the Jabberwock's ability to teleport people. I was wondering if anything that mentioned it gave it such an ability. Sorry for the incorrect name, feel really stupid now.
Oooh... but the Boojum makes people "softly and silently vanish away..."
http://www.literature.org/authors/carroll-lewis/the-hunting-of-the-snark/
halfeye
2013-07-26, 08:22 AM
Oooh... but the Boojum makes people "softly and silently vanish away..."
http://www.literature.org/authors/carroll-lewis/the-hunting-of-the-snark/
Wrong poem. However, I think I prefer the MitD as a Boojum to as a Jabberwock, and there was at least a book reference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlnovel/865240000) (um, I haven't read the book).
hamishspence
2013-07-26, 08:45 AM
Sorry for the incorrect name
It's a very common thing, it must be said. The live action Alice in Wonderland movie (with Johnny Depp) does the same- everyone in the movie calls the creature Jabberwocky.
Why is everybody so set on the MiTD being able to teleport, specifically. I always interpreted that comic as the MiTD using a wish-like spell or ability.
If he used a wish-like spell or ability to teleport them...he teleported them.
If he has Wish powers, he has teleport powers, along with "nearly-everything-else" powers.
Maybe he Wished for the earth to shake when he stomped his foot, and maybe he Wished for them to be teleported away. But what we know is: The earth shook when he stomped his foot, and they teleported away when he wanted them to teleport away. I will be surprised if it turns out he doesn't have massive strength. But you'll note that the opening posts do not assert that he definitely has massive strength--and do you know why? Because the thread stays open to the possibility that the times he's shown what appears to be massive strength, will actually be something else.
Irish Musician
2013-07-26, 08:55 AM
If he used a wish-like spell or ability to teleport them...he teleported them.
If he has Wish powers, he has teleport powers, along with "nearly-everything-else" powers.
Maybe he Wished for the earth to shake when he stomped his foot, and maybe he Wished for them to be teleported away. But what we know is: The earth shook when he stomped his foot, and they teleported away when he wanted them to teleport away.
Maybe he wished if he could help Miko Tsukiko(thank you Dagger :smallwink:), and therefore was able to read half the ritual?
DaggerPen
2013-07-26, 09:41 AM
Maybe he wished if he could help Miko, and therefore was able to read half the ritual?
I believe you meant Tsukiko? :P Probably more like he wished he knew how to get her to help him or something.
I argue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15696717&postcount=179) that in the MitD's speech patterns change and become more adult and intelligent when he concentrates. That, along with the escape, to me suggests something that is capable of altering its own nature. Maybe supports the protean?
I'd argue against the earthquake and the 'hitting lightly' contest as examples of this, because in both cases these were things the MitD was capable of by default, wasn't trying to achieve, didn't know it could do and didn't really want to. In my opinion, they give us information about his unaltered form.
I like the (debatable) recognisability of the Boojum is from popular culture - however, how on earth do you draw something so it's recognisably a Boojum? The only thing we know about a Boojum is that they can be mistaken for a Snark, and a Snark can be recognised by "The five unmistakable marks By which you may know, wheresoever you go, The warranted genuine Snarks (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/CarSnar.html):
The first is the taste, Which is meager and hollow, but crisp: Like a coat that is rather too tight in the waist, With a flavor of Will-o-the-wisp.
Its habit of getting up late you'll agree That it carries too far, when I say That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, And dines on the following day.
The third is its slowness in taking a jest. Should you happen to venture on one, It will sigh like a thing that is deeply distressed: And it always looks grave at a pun.
Apart from knowing that you can serve it with greens, and it's handy for striking a light, that's pretty much all you can go on.
Is there any any evidence of the MitD being distressed by a pun?
I think we should be cautious about things like the Vodar's speech - while it does explain the Vodar speaking, it also goes directly against the story that the fluff is trying to build about the creature. A chatty Vodar is about as bizzare and inappropriate as a half-dragon pot-plant. I mean, HOW? Not suggesting the MitD can't extrapolate beyond what's in the source material - but directly opposing it feels unlike something the Giant would do. To me.
Raphite1
2013-07-26, 11:25 AM
Perhaps a minor "pro" for a creature related to the Juiblex is Sabine's recent statement that the IFC has a pawn on every team. The most common guess for the "pawn" on Team Evil was the demon roaches, but the MitD may be an especially good candidate if he is also from an evil plane.
The MitD appears to have an occluded plane-traveling history, given that he seems to have a faint memory of being in the astral plane. The IFC could have been involved in the events that led the MitD and his father ending up in the material plane, which would tie things together nicely story-wise once that narrative is revealed.
Juiblex is a proper name--not a "the."
I think it's, not impossible, but still quite unlikely that the creature in the darkness will turn out to be any sort of demon. If he's a unique demon like Juiblex, but not a specific unique demon who already has a name in D&D...I'd consider that to fall on the wrong side of "something Rich made up."
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-26, 01:50 PM
I think we should be cautious about things like the Vodar's speech - while it does explain the Vodar speaking, it also goes directly against the story that the fluff is trying to build about the creature. A chatty Vodar is about as bizzare and inappropriate as a half-dragon pot-plant. I mean, HOW? Not suggesting the MitD can't extrapolate beyond what's in the source material - but directly opposing it feels unlike something the Giant would do. To me.
I disagree. All it takes is a single word: "magic". We don't know why its surprising that MitD can speak, and in common no less, but the strongest argument is that it is a lampshade. And if said argument is correct, there is no explanation, since a lampshade is the author admitting that he just broke the rules of the world, and he is aware of it. And it is something Rich would do, since he has done other lampshades in the past. In this particular case, the meta reason was that MitD spoke freely before strip #100, and thus whatever he chose had to be able to speak - but if he did indeed pick something like the protean or the zodar, he would have to admit to it. In-story, as I say, he no longer needs to come up with an explanation but if one is added, it will come down, indeed, to "magic".
Also, please check the spelling. it is zodar, not "Vodar".
Grey Wolf
Been meaning to bring this up for ages.
We know via Samantha that Sorcerer powers can develop spontaneously, and Xykon between babyhood and middle childhood apparently gained levels, (since i'm told he was casting higher level spells by then, haven;t got SoD myself), despite doing nothing we know of to earn levels, (Samantha also seems to have gained a lot of levels for a mere bandit). As such if MitD is part of a race that can have sorcerer powers in a percentage of cases then there's another option there. Given Redcloak's statements about unread they would have to be powers that he is unaware of, which implies they've developed since he was "acquired". And he'd need a lot of levels to get the spells needed to cover everything, but it would nicely explain a l;ot of odd-ball scene's whilst opening the list of possibilities a fair bit, and we have a strong precedent for it.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-26, 04:19 PM
Been meaning to bring this up for ages.
We know via Samantha that Sorcerer powers can develop spontaneously, and Xykon between babyhood and middle childhood apparently gained levels, (since i'm told he was casting higher level spells by then, haven;t got SoD myself), despite doing nothing we know of to earn levels, (Samantha also seems to have gained a lot of levels for a mere bandit). As such if MitD is part of a race that can have sorcerer powers in a percentage of cases then there's another option there. Given Redcloak's statements about unread they would have to be powers that he is unaware of, which implies they've developed since he was "acquired". And he'd need a lot of levels to get the spells needed to cover everything, but it would nicely explain a l;ot of odd-ball scene's whilst opening the list of possibilities a fair bit, and we have a strong precedent for it.
Not a new idea: see section 2d: Class Levels.
Also, races that can gain sorcerer levels tend to be what one would call "traditional" PC races, which tend to not be SBGH catches nor good "unrecognisable IT" circus' freak shows. Not saying there aren't some that might fit, only that this idea is best when attached to the correct idea, such as the Dread Linnorm from the FBS list.
Grey Wolf
Let me quote a section of that, (though it looks different to last time i looked at it in the old thread, there it just talked about all class levels).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")
Point 1 is a maybe, if it's a percentage chance on the monster entry then it's quite reasonable and so can be figured out.
Point 2 has the issue that 2 of our sorcerers have demonstrated no need to earn massive amounts of XP to be high level, (Xykon apparently gained his first sorcerer level as a baby and was higher levekl by later childhood, yet i doubt he was doing anything of the sort that would have let him gain the necessary XP. And Samantha is rather high level for someone who's pretty much attacking other low level bandits and commoners.)
Point 3 also isn't very good IMO because if they're spontaneously gained rather than chosen he may be as unaware he has them as RC/Xykon.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-26, 04:37 PM
Point 1 is a maybe, if it's a percentage chance on the monster entry then it's quite reasonable and so can be figured out.
Point 1 wouldn't apply to your hypothetical creature with class levels - but then, as I said, those get a pass. The problem with 1 is for everything else, creatures that don't have them naturally and "the DM" gave them class levels to buff them up.
Point 2 has the issue that 2 of our sorcerers have demonstrated no need to earn massive amounts of XP to be high level, (Xykon apparently gained his first sorcerer level as a baby and was higher levekl by later childhood, yet i doubt he was doing anything of the sort that would have let him gain the necessary XP. And Samantha is rather high level for someone who's pretty much attacking other low level bandits and commoners.)
No, neither of them gained XP on page to level up. Samantha may have had off-page adventures. We can't know because she is at best a D-list antagonist. Xykon most definitely did earn XP on the side. Yes, his first spell - reanimating his dog - was spontaneous, but that was a level 0 cantrip that I'm told doesn't even count as a spell. It is strongly implied that once he figured out, he practiced a lot. By the time he mumified his grandma and the wizard, he had clearly been using his powers for other stuff for quite some time. Then he joined evil teams and worked on his own. You cannot say that Xykon didn't earn his levels just because they happened off-page.
Furthermore, RC quite clearly points out that MitD must level to gain further spells.
Point 3 also isn't very good IMO because if they're spontaneously gained rather than chosen he may be as unaware he has them as RC/Xykon.
If. But since that is very likely not the case, and instead canon points towards hard work and/or RP is required, only some horribly clichèd amnesia would explain how MitD was unaware of his 5 levels of sorcerer spells.
Just to be clear, you didn't bring anything new to the table, as I said, except a vague "we need to take sorcerer levels into account", so I directed you to the compilation of conclusions. We do take sorcerer levels into account. They come with downsides, as explained above. You think they are the solution? find the creature with sorcerer levels. As I showed, we have had a few.
Grey Wolf
originalginger
2013-07-26, 09:36 PM
The poem is called Jabberwocky. The creature is called a Jabberwock in it. Did the 2nd ed or earlier source with D&D rules for it, follow that convention though?
It did not, and the creature itself is referred to as "The Jabberwocky" both in it's heading and in the fluff text.
Also as a matter or reference, the text posted earlier about the Jabberwocky is literally every word written about him in the Magic Mirror adventure module. He is presented as a one-off creature without a listed natural habitat, treasure table, encounter frequency, or any other information commonly presented for monsters. In context of the adventure, he appears to be intended only as a medium-level threat to weaken the party a bit before their fight with the much more threatening (but no more MitD compatible) Bandersnatch.
Reddish Mage
2013-07-28, 03:26 PM
At this point, I wonder if there is a BIG problem with EVERY monster that has been proposed. Having kept the Monster hidden in the darkness so long, can any monster, following the big reveal scene, be anything other than a disappointment?
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-28, 03:32 PM
At this point, I wonder if there is a BIG problem with EVERY monster that has been proposed.
No, there isn't. For some selct, cream-of-the-crop suggestions, the problems are more nit-picky than big, and for others they are problems only to this thread, not to the author - i.e. he could drop the appropriate hint down the line that would make the issue disappear.
Having kept the Monster hidden in the darkness so long, can any monster, following the big reveal scene, be anything other than a disappointment?
Yes, it will be something other than disappointment in most scenarios I can picture. I really don't get this "disappointment" people keep accusing MitD of. If this thread will cause you to not enjoy the reveal, can I suggest you don't read the thread? I mean it very seriously.
To me, it will be a great success if this thread interpreted most of the clues correctly, no matter what MitD turns out to be. But from the chatter in this thread, it seems that for many the fact that we are trying to guess the solution is a disappointment. In which case, the solution for that kind of reader is to stay away from here. It's not like every other thread is trying to figure it out - if having a list of suggestions will cause you to not enjoy the reveal, ignore said list.
Grey Wolf
ReaderAt2046
2013-07-28, 04:43 PM
I would like to suggest that the MITD is a "Kliker" (whatever race Klik and Evil Klik from Goblins belong to, AFAIK it doesn't have a real name) with a positive of meat and a extremely rare negative.
Pros:
1. Extremely rare, but is a species.
2. Something like this (http://www.goblinscomic.org/12072012/) would look pretty horrid to most people, especially if it has chunks of meat falling out of its mouths. However, some might find it beautiful in a sort of abstract-sculpture fashion.
3. Klikers ordinarily don't seem to say anything other than "Klik!" or "Reee!!", so finding one speaking Common would be quite odd.
4. We also see from the above link that with adequate supplies of their positive, Klikers can grow to large sizes easily, and that in that state they don't seem to use flight.
5. Klikers are noted for a voracious appetite.
6. Though it's hard to tell, Klikers don't seem to be harmed by anything other than their designated negative, and Evil Klik seems to have powerful attacks.
Cons:
1. No explanation for the teleport scene.
2. Copyrighted, though Rich might be able to get permission from Thunt.
Gift Jeraff
2013-07-28, 04:46 PM
Goblins didn't hit the Internet until 2005, which would be after strip #100.
Jay R
2013-07-28, 05:14 PM
At this point, I wonder if there is a BIG problem with EVERY monster that has been proposed. Having kept the Monster hidden in the darkness so long, can any monster, following the big reveal scene, be anything other than a disappointment?
Don't worry. As long as he leaps out as says something terrifying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html), to strike fear into their hearts before he attacks, there should be no disappointment, and nobody will have to lower their expectations.
Olinser
2013-07-29, 08:44 PM
Interesting thought - if the MiTD had stuck around just a couple rounds more, Malack would have had a safe place to run to. Wonder how that would have worked out?
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-29, 08:46 PM
Interesting thought - if the MiTD had stuck around just a couple rounds more, Malack would have had a safe place to run to. Wonder how that would have worked out?
I'm already surprised that MitD can fit under the umbrella. I don't think there is space for a second person under it.
GW
DaggerPen
2013-07-29, 10:24 PM
I'm already surprised that MitD can fit under the umbrella. I don't think there is space for a second person under it.
GW
Yeah, but if Malack were to try to shove MitD out of the way, MitD would probably acquiesce. If he noticed the attempts, anyway.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-07-29, 10:30 PM
Yeah, but if Malack were to try to shove MitD out of the way, MitD would probably acquiesce. If he noticed the attempts, anyway.
Somehow, a guy so weak he can't even stop Nale from swiping his staff doesn't sound like the powerful linebacker that could force the MitD to move.
And wouldn't MitD, if shoved, take the umbrella with him? He's holding it, after all.
GW, amused
DaggerPen
2013-07-29, 10:35 PM
Well, like I said, it'd depend if the MitD noticed. I mean, he's polite and really wants to get out of the darkness - if Malack attempted to squeeze in and grab the umbrella, I could imagine him "conveniently" dropping it. After all, it wouldn't technically be his fault, like if the archons had light-blasted him, so Xykon can't be mad, right? :P
Emanick
2013-07-29, 10:37 PM
Well, like I said, it'd depend if the MitD noticed. I mean, he's polite and really wants to get out of the darkness - if Malack attempted to squeeze in and grab the umbrella, I could imagine him "conveniently" dropping it. After all, it wouldn't technically be his fault, like if the archons had light-blasted him, so Xykon can't be mad, right? :P
Or he could allow Malack to squeeze in there with him, if his form allows that sort of flexibility. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Steven
2013-07-30, 04:44 AM
:mitd: "Yay! A new friend. I'll call you Mr. Scaly."
Olinser
2013-07-30, 08:27 AM
:mitd: "Yay! A new friend. I'll call you Mr. Scaly."
At that point it may have ben "Mr Toasty".
happycrow
2013-08-01, 02:10 PM
Well, *I* missed an awful lot here.
Mea culpa on the "Drive by posting" bit -- I didn't catch that that a single query needed supporting data before asking on it: I posted in "general conversation mode." However, I otherwise *had* read the entire first page, including all nominated critters, and while there was a list of "Critters that have been proposed that don't quite cut it," there wasn't a list (that I saw) of "all critters we've seen proposed before." Making the distinction might make it easier for those of us who aren't MITD SMEs. :)
I agree that a Juiblex-spawn has notable fluff issues, and put it out there b/c it was the only thing I could think of that satisfied all of the Big Three.
fwiw, I don't see MITD as necessarily good-aligned. He's got a cartoon sense of narrative that makes sense for a being that spent a lot of time in the circus as a young critter, and he's clearly got friends. But then, so does Belkar, and his evil is measured in kilonazis.
Emanick
2013-08-01, 02:36 PM
But then, so does Belkar, and his evil is measured in kilonazis.
Well, it was. Hectanazis might be a more useful unit with which to measure it now. :smallwink:
Crusher
2013-08-01, 02:40 PM
I prefer to measure it in meganazis which just sounds more diabolical somehow.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-01, 02:45 PM
fwiw, I don't see MITD as necessarily good-aligned.
The only reason this thread cares about the alignment is due to demons (and technically angels, but those pop up less frequently). The issue here is not so much what MitD's alignment might be, but the fact that he is changing it - he was more evil at the start, and has become less and less so with characterisation.
This is relevant only because of Rich's words on extraplanar morality. He set up a difference between regular extraplanar beings (such as Celia) and "morality plane beings", which are quite literally personifications of their morality plane.
Celia is a personification of the element of air, but that carries no morality baggage. She can be any alignment, and she can fail to uphold her ideals.
A demon/angel/etc. is a personification of Evil/Good/Law/etc. and quite literally cannot help being what he is. The IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) is fighting this by having the Law demon design the contracts/traps, the Chaos demon listen to his gut, and the Neutral demon keeping peace in the family. But they cannot break from their mold, because they are the mold.
Grey Wolf
happycrow
2013-08-01, 04:07 PM
It can be finessed somewhat in regards to a spawn, given that Juiblex is said to have no ambitions other than to exist... take that "spawn" out of the abyss and put him in a jungle, then into a circus, and then hanging out with the Crazy Show That Is Zykon, you might get something very much like MITD.
Might.
That said, I agree that it's an issue and problematic.
ReaderAt2046
2013-08-01, 04:23 PM
I would like to propose that the MITD might be a Chichimec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm).
Pros:
1. Darkness and Telekenesis as at-will SLAs. (Darkness is obvious, Telekinesis has been proposed at several points.)
2. Control Weather 3/Day (explains the rain).
3. Looks pretty weird (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44173_C5_Chichimec.jpg) but 30 Cha might make it attractive to some.
4. The fact that it seems to just be a ball of wings might explain why pulling is harder than pushing (no opposable or prehensile grasping appendages).
5. 34 Str is plenty for the tower scene.
6. Strong defenses (DR 10/epic and good, fast healing 10, and 435 hp).
7. Medium size means it easily fits into the box.
Cons:
1. No teleport powers.
2. Chichimecs are airborn, and the MITD doesn't seem to use flight.
3. Immune to mind-affecting spells.
DaggerPen
2013-08-01, 04:34 PM
I would like to propose that the MITD might be a Chichimec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm).
Pros:
1. Darkness and Telekenesis as at-will SLAs. (Darkness is obvious, Telekinesis has been proposed at several points.)
2. Control Weather 3/Day (explains the rain).
3. Looks pretty weird (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44173_C5_Chichimec.jpg) but 30 Cha might make it attractive to some.
4. The fact that it seems to just be a ball of wings might explain why pulling is harder than pushing (no opposable or prehensile grasping appendages).
5. 34 Str is plenty for the tower scene.
6. Strong defenses (DR 10/epic and good, fast healing 10, and 435 hp).
7. Medium size means it easily fits into the box.
Cons:
1. No teleport powers.
2. Chichimecs are airborn, and the MITD doesn't seem to use flight.
3. Immune to mind-affecting spells.
I think the lack of ability to teleport O-Chul and V is a killer, but in addition to that - does that even have eyes? I mean, that wouldn't keep it out of FBS, but it's still a con.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-01, 05:27 PM
3. Looks pretty weird (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44173_C5_Chichimec.jpg) but 30 Cha might make it attractive to some.
I'd add that weird looks are not vomiting-inducing enough to explain the reactions at the circus.
GW
halfeye
2013-08-01, 06:36 PM
I'd add that weird looks are not vomiting-inducing enough to explain the reactions at the circus.
GW
Given the heavy gender bias in the reactions at the circus, I'm tempted by the thought that the MitD appears to be a set of male genitalia, but I don't know of a monster that looks like that.
SavageWombat
2013-08-01, 06:45 PM
Given the heavy gender bias in the reactions at the circus, I'm tempted by the thought that the MitD appears to be a set of male genitalia, but I don't know of a monster that looks like that.
You're not familiar with the century worm then.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-01, 06:59 PM
Given the heavy gender bias in the reactions at the circus, I'm tempted by the thought that the MitD appears to be a set of male genitalia, but I don't know of a monster that looks like that.
I don't see a heavy gender bias in the reactions. There is a heavy gender bias in attendance, but both sexes react with disgust.
GW
Kornaki
2013-08-01, 07:09 PM
I'm tempted by the thought that the MitD appears to be a set of male genitalia, but I don't know of a monster that looks like that.
There was a monster in this very comic strip whose appearance was called out by Haley as being exactly that. It wasn't even that long ago :smalltongue:
balladfen
2013-08-02, 01:55 PM
I think the lack of ability to teleport O-Chul and V is a killer, but in addition to that - does that even have eyes? I mean, that wouldn't keep it out of FBS, but it's still a con.
According to the Epic Level Handbook, a chichimec's eyes and tiny mouths(!) can't be seen while it's alive.
Reddish Mage
2013-08-02, 04:11 PM
[in response to my suggestion that any monster will be a disappointment after Rich building expectations about what the monster is so high] Don't worry. As long as he leaps out as says something terrifying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html), to strike fear into their hearts before he attacks, there should be no disappointment, and nobody will have to lower their expectations.
Lol. Your right, I'm picturing a terrifying horrendous creature coming out and declaring his love of parsley!
I'm thinking that its more likely that the MiTD will come out and attack Team Evil when the time comes. That too, could make a brilliant scene, especially if its looks the part like it could be a real threat at a critical juncture.
halfeye
2013-08-02, 04:55 PM
I don't see a heavy gender bias in the reactions. There is a heavy gender bias in attendance, but both sexes react with disgust.
GW
The human females frown at worst, the male humans mostly look as if they're about to throw up, and one actually does. The males seem to me to be much more aversely affected. It would be a d**k joke, in a comic that already has its share of jokes. It could be I'm imagining it, but I don't think so.
Holy_Knight
2013-08-02, 07:25 PM
The human females frown at worst, the male humans mostly look as if they're about to throw up, and one actually does. The males seem to me to be much more aversely affected. It would be a d**k joke, in a comic that already has its share of jokes. It could be I'm imagining it, but I don't think so.
That would seem rather unlikely given one male viewer's "I've never seen anything like it" line, don't you think?
Bulldog Psion
2013-08-02, 07:55 PM
That would seem rather unlikely given one male viewer's "I've never seen anything like it" line, don't you think?
The accurate simplicity of this statement made me laugh. "I've never seen anything like it" -- :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
ReaderAt2046
2013-08-02, 08:33 PM
So somewhere back there, we were trying to work out what stack of templates would turn a potted plant into MITD, and we hit a problem because plants are objects and not eligible for most templates. But I just discovered the spell Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm), which will allow you to turn a potted plant into a little tiny plant creature. Thoughts?
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-02, 08:44 PM
So somewhere back there, we were trying to work out what stack of templates would turn a potted plant into MITD, and we hit a problem because plants are objects and not eligible for most templates. But I just discovered the spell Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm), which will allow you to turn a potted plant into a little tiny plant creature. Thoughts?
It was suggested at the time, but I have to admit I never followed up on the suggestion - I think I was still hoping we'd find a template that could be applied directly to an object (presumably something like "automated", that would turn a regular object into a construct) in a similar way to what that spell does.
Given that no such "ideal" template seems to exist, I'll take another stab at the potted plant idea, starting with an awaken bonsai.
Edit: My own stab at the potted plant template stack:
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai:
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (psionic, extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 19d8+19*5+19*12, maxed (475 hp)
Speed: 120 ft., Fly 100’ (poor)
Armor Class: 66 (+7 Dex +35 Natural Armor + 12 insight +12 luck)
Special Qualities: Plant Traits, Darkvision 60’, Low-light vision.
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 25, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 24 Cha 16
Feats: Multi-Attack, Scent, Track, etc.
Challenge Rating: 38
Alignment: Usually Chaotic
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: +5
Plant Traits (?) – Immunity to Poison, Magical Sleep, Paralysis, Polymorph, Stunning, & Mind-Affecting spells & spell-like abilities. Do not take extra damage from Critical Hits.
Damage Category 6 Gore attack
Constrict (Ex)
A flexible animated plant such as a rope, vine, or rug deals damage equal to its slam damage value plus 1½ times its Strength bonus with a successful grapple check against a creature up to one size larger than itself.
Cold resistance 5 +1 per HD (max. 20). Shadow Blend – As long as the Shadow Creature is not in full
daylight (or a Daylight spell), it can blend into the shadows, gaining Total Concealment.
One of the following per 4 HD (round up):
• +2 Luck bonus on all saving throws.
• Cause Fear at 5th, usable once per day.
• Damage Reduction 5/magic.
• Evasion.
• Mirror Image at 5th, usable once per day.
• Plane Shift (self only) at 15th to / from the Plane of Shadows,
usable once per day.
• Fast Healing 2.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp)
If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level.
Goat Head – 1d8 butt.
Dragon Head – 2d6 bite attack, plus a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds that does 3d8 damage. Constitution-based DC.
Green 20’ cone of Acid Gas
Phrenic:
Psi-Like Abilities (Sp)
A phrenic creature possesses the psi-like abilities indicated below, depending on its Hit Dice. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Manifester level is equal to the creature’s HD. The save DCs for a phrenic creature’s psi-like abilities are Charisma-based.
HD Abilities
1-2 3/day—defensive precognition; 1/day—force screen
3-4 3/day—empty mind, mind thrust
5-6 1/day—body adjustment, brain lock
7-8 1/day—aversion, psionic blast
9-10 3/day—intellect fortress; 1/day—psychic crush
11-12 1/day—psionic dominate
13-14 1/day—energy current, tower of iron will
15-16 3/day—psionic teleport
17-18 1/day—fission
19-20 1/day—ultrablast
Paragon:
Attacks
A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll.
Damage
A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks.
Special Attacks
A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp)
If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level.
Special Qualities
A paragon creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
Fire and cold resistance 10. If the creature already possesses such resistance, use whichever is better.
Damage reduction 10/epic. If the creature already possesses damage reduction, use whichever is better.
Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s CR +25. If the creature already possesses spell resistance, use whichever is higher.
Fast healing 20. If the creature already possesses fast healing, use whichever is better.
A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Saves
The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws.
Abilities
All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature.
Skills
The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks.
Feats
Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat.
Grey Wolf
DaggerPen
2013-08-03, 11:44 AM
It was suggested at the time, but I have to admit I never followed up on the suggestion - I think I was still hoping we'd find a template that could be applied directly to an object (presumably something like "automated", that would turn a regular object into a construct) in a similar way to what that spell does.
Given that no such "ideal" template seems to exist, I'll take another stab at the potted plant idea, starting with an awaken bonsai.
Edit: My own stab at the potted plant template stack:
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai:
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (psionic, extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 19d8+19*5+19*12, maxed (475 hp)
Speed: 120 ft., Fly 100’ (poor)
Armor Class: 66 (+7 Dex +35 Natural Armor + 12 insight +12 luck)
Special Qualities: Plant Traits, Darkvision 60’, Low-light vision.
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 25, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 24 Cha 16
Feats: Multi-Attack, Scent, Track, etc.
Challenge Rating: 38
Alignment: Usually Chaotic
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: +5
Plant Traits (?) – Immunity to Poison, Magical Sleep, Paralysis, Polymorph, Stunning, & Mind-Affecting spells & spell-like abilities. Do not take extra damage from Critical Hits.
Damage Category 6 Gore attack
Constrict (Ex)
A flexible animated plant such as a rope, vine, or rug deals damage equal to its slam damage value plus 1½ times its Strength bonus with a successful grapple check against a creature up to one size larger than itself.
Cold resistance 5 +1 per HD (max. 20). Shadow Blend – As long as the Shadow Creature is not in full
daylight (or a Daylight spell), it can blend into the shadows, gaining Total Concealment.
One of the following per 4 HD (round up):
• +2 Luck bonus on all saving throws.
• Cause Fear at 5th, usable once per day.
• Damage Reduction 5/magic.
• Evasion.
• Mirror Image at 5th, usable once per day.
• Plane Shift (self only) at 15th to / from the Plane of Shadows,
usable once per day.
• Fast Healing 2.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp)
If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level.
Goat Head – 1d8 butt.
Dragon Head – 2d6 bite attack, plus a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds that does 3d8 damage. Constitution-based DC.
Green 20’ cone of Acid Gas
Phrenic:
Psi-Like Abilities (Sp)
A phrenic creature possesses the psi-like abilities indicated below, depending on its Hit Dice. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Manifester level is equal to the creature’s HD. The save DCs for a phrenic creature’s psi-like abilities are Charisma-based.
HD Abilities
1-2 3/day—defensive precognition; 1/day—force screen
3-4 3/day—empty mind, mind thrust
5-6 1/day—body adjustment, brain lock
7-8 1/day—aversion, psionic blast
9-10 3/day—intellect fortress; 1/day—psychic crush
11-12 1/day—psionic dominate
13-14 1/day—energy current, tower of iron will
15-16 3/day—psionic teleport
17-18 1/day—fission
19-20 1/day—ultrablast
Paragon:
Attacks
A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll.
Damage
A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks.
Special Attacks
A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp)
If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level.
Special Qualities
A paragon creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
Fire and cold resistance 10. If the creature already possesses such resistance, use whichever is better.
Damage reduction 10/epic. If the creature already possesses damage reduction, use whichever is better.
Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s CR +25. If the creature already possesses spell resistance, use whichever is higher.
Fast healing 20. If the creature already possesses fast healing, use whichever is better.
A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Saves
The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws.
Abilities
All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature.
Skills
The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks.
Feats
Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat.
Grey Wolf
... wow. Yeah, that's the template stack we've been looking for. Leaves a few issues - immunity to mind-affecting effects - but overall really nice. The shadow blend is a nice touch.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-03, 02:01 PM
... wow. Yeah, that's the template stack we've been looking for. Leaves a few issues - immunity to mind-affecting effects - but overall really nice. The shadow blend is a nice touch.
I think the plant characteristics are likely lost at some point when it stops being a plant, so it might not be immune to mind-affecting spells.
But I am way out of my comfort zone here - I probably made a number of mistakes. For example, Chimeric requires a medium creature, thus the Giant Giant that I added half-way through.
GW
Steven
2013-08-04, 12:52 AM
Also, even if it does have immunity to mind-affecting spells it still stands as an excellent example of why templates are undesirable.
ChristianSt
2013-08-04, 02:27 AM
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai
What a cop-out - everybody knows that a Bonsai is so overpowered compared to a plotted plant (or really anything else)! Seriously, turning a mighty Bonsai into MitD does only show that the Bonsai needs some heavy balancing. :smallbiggrin:
Any awesome artist in this thread to make a picture of our new MitD-proposal? Then we could even test whether the circus-scene fits or not. :smallwink:
[/some irony stuff] Good work - templates aren't really helpful for this thread.
Bulldog Psion
2013-08-04, 04:01 AM
That, my friend, is one heck of a bonsai. :smallbiggrin:
The Bearded One
2013-08-04, 09:14 PM
(1st post. Hi y'all.)
In several parts of the FAQ, people seem to have theorized repeatedly that the MitD has a terrible odor of some sort to explain the circus scene. However, that seems to be contradicted by Belkar's actions during the tea party scene.
In particular, Belkar did not mention any adverse odor, nor was there any penalty to his cooking roll mentioned (aside from improvised equipment).
I do not recall any mention of Belkar being olfactorally impaired at the time of the tea party, and if he was, I would expect that to give him at least another -2 to his cooking roll, as would any strong odor emanating from the MitD.
I know this doesn't add any new information to help narrow down what the MitD is, but it might help clarify what it isn't.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-04, 09:16 PM
(1st post. Hi y'all.)
In several parts of the FAQ, people seem to have theorized repeatedly that the MitD has a terrible odor of some sort to explain the circus scene. However, that seems to be contradicted by Belkar's actions during the tea party scene.
In particular, Belkar did not mention any adverse odor, nor was there any penalty to his cooking roll mentioned (aside from improvised equipment).
I do not recall any mention of Belkar being olfactorally impaired at the time of the tea party, and if he was, I would expect that to give him at least another -2 to his cooking roll, as would any strong odor emanating from the MitD.
I know this doesn't add any new information to help narrow down what the MitD is, but it might help clarify what it isn't.
Why would MitD smelling bad cause Belkar to be worse at cooking?
GW
The Bearded One
2013-08-04, 09:26 PM
Why would MitD smelling bad cause Belkar to be worse at cooking?
GW
Being able to smell (and taste) what you are preparing is integral to cooking a quality dish/meal. If the MitD smelled vile (and Belkar could sense that), then it would throw off his ability to cook the stew. His skill ranks are in gourmet cooking, so he isn't just some fast-food chef either.
In other segments (such as rescuing V from the dimension of Ranch Dressing), Belkar demonstrated that he has a very refined sense of smell. If he could detect any adverse scent from the MitD, I suspect he would have mentioned it.
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-04, 09:34 PM
Being able to smell (and taste) what you are preparing is integral to cooking a quality dish/meal. If the MitD smelled vile (and Belkar could sense that), then it would throw off his ability to cook the stew. His skill ranks are in gourmet cooking, so he isn't just some fast-food chef either.
That only applies in real life. Unless there is a RAW reason, Belkar would have simply ignored it, since he was angling to get the maximum pluses he could.
In short, you can't bring RL "rules" to a D&D world.
In other segments (such as rescuing V from the dimension of Ranch Dressing), Belkar demonstrated that he has a very refined sense of smell. If he could detect any adverse scent from the MitD, I suspect he would have mentioned it.
Belkar would not want to taunt the god-killing abomination creature he already established cannot be killed, and that he and Haley are trying to appease.
Grey Wolf
Steven
2013-08-04, 09:36 PM
Also, I thought the smell was based more on the MitD apologizing for it on a couple of occasions. Or am I misremembering?
DaggerPen
2013-08-04, 09:37 PM
You're not misremembering - he mentions in SOD that he always forgets to say "please" and "thank you" and "sorry about the smell."
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-04, 09:42 PM
You're not misremembering - he mentions in SOD that he always forgets to say "please" and "thank you" and "sorry about the smell."
There is also the fact that whenever he eats baked beans, his bowels generate earth shattering booms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html).
GW
The Bearded One
2013-08-04, 09:51 PM
That only applies in real life. Unless there is a RAW reason, Belkar would have simply ignored it, since he was angling to get the maximum pluses he could.
In short, you can't bring RL "rules" to a D&D world.
Grey Wolf
Okay, you're right. But if the MitD's stench was causing all those disgusted reactions in the circus scene, why didn't it affect Belkar & Haley? Did they simply make a Fortitude save that we readers weren't privy to?
Troglodytes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) have a stench attack which is not really under their control, and has serious in-game effects if the required Fort save is failed. If that is the sort of odor that people are proposing the MitD has, then Belkar's lack of reaction in the tea party scene needs to be explained.
I was just hoping to add something to the discussion; I wasn't trying to poop on anyone's fun. :smallfrown:
Grey_Wolf_c
2013-08-04, 09:55 PM
Okay, you're right. But if the MitD's stench was causing all those disgusted reactions in the circus scene, why didn't it affect Belkar & Haley? Did they simply make a Fortitude save that we readers weren't privy to?
Troglodytes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) have a stench attack which is not really under their control, and has serious in-game effects if the required Fort save is failed. If that is the sort of odor that people are proposing the MitD has, then Belkar's lack of reaction in the tea party scene needs to be explained.
The circus' espectators where all commoners, thus likely level 1. It is much easier for them to fail a Fort check than it is for Belkar and Haley, level 14-ish.
I was just hoping to add something to the discussion; I wasn't trying to poop on anyone's fun. :smallfrown:
Please read all my answers in dry, academic tones. You neither increased nor decreased my fun.
Grey Wolf
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