Cleric positive energy blasting.

[MukkTB]

I want to send positive energy downrange and cause some damage. I care more about the fluff than actually getting the positive energy descriptor. Beams of light, divine fire, and stuff without the evil descriptor is the order of the day. Better quality blasts are preferable, but given the difficulty of finding anything I'll take what I can get. PF or any 3.5 source works.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/searingLight.html#_searing-light
-is a good example.

Can you guys help me flesh out a list?

[Darth Stabber]

Flamestrike deals half fire, half divine retribution, so that's always nice, and works on the living.

The problem with positive energy blasting is threefold.
1) only works on undead
2) positive energy spells tend to do piddly damage for their level
3) blasto generally sucks

With a few exceptions (most notably mailman sorcs) DD spells tend to be an inefficient use of spell slots. Any git with a sword can deal damage, and they can usually outdamage you, and not spend a valuable resources on each swing. Example you can effectively deal more damage with a haste spell than with a fireball. At 6th level a fighter with power attack, 18 strength and a +1 greatsword will deal an average of 18 damage per swing on average by only PA'ing 2 pts, and that is very low optimization. A fireball will deal 21 on a failed save, so we can see that in just 2 turns you have come out way ahead, and you made the fighter feel useful. A mailman sorc is launching several heavily metamagic'd orb spells per turn, but that's a little bit higher op. As a cleric you can deal more by buffing yourself and hitting people, than by blasting, or you can buff the fighter and the rogue for even greater returns on investment.

[NevinPL]

Light of Lunia\Mercuria\Venya (Planar Handbook\Spell Compendium) is light blasting goodness.
And there's also Sun Bolt from Shining South.

Do a search for "[Light]" descriptor on one of the spell list websites, to find more.

[Feytalist]

Spell Compendium has a bunch of light-based spells. The one I'm thinking of is blistering radiance, a sort of light/fire/blinding fireball. Never actually used it ingame, though, so I don't know if it's any good.

[Galvin]

There's Searing Light from the Player's Handbook. It fires a ray of I think light damage, though it might be positive. More damage against the undead.

[TuggyNE]

1) only works on undead

This simply isn't true. Bolt of glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) is perhaps the most obvious counter-example, but I expect there are others.

[Galvin]

This simply isn't true. Bolt of glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) is perhaps the most obvious counter-example, but I expect there are others.

The spell description of Bolt of Glory states that the ray comes from the Plane of Positive Energy but it does not actually anywhere in the spell description say that it does positive energy damage. Either that, or I need to brush up on my spot checks.

[BWR]

Sol's Searing Orb.

[MukkTB]

I'm looking at things where the fluff seems to be akin to positive energy. Things that a caster powered by positive energy would use as blasts. I don't actually need the positive energy descriptor. Its just a bonus. This is an exercise in fluff.

[Feytalist]

Light of X and blistering radiance is a good start, then.

I mean, when you think positive energy, you think blinding light anyway, don't you?

[Piggy Knowles]

If you have the dragonblood subtype, you can nab Dragonfire Channeling, which lets you spend a turn attempt to deal 1d6 damage per 2 cleric levels im a cone (and anything that boosts your effective cleric level for turning undead counts - you can get +10 or more from items alone this way...).

It's fire damage (unless you have Draconic Heritage), but you'd literally be powering it with positive energy since you're spending your turn attempts for it.

[mregecko]

Worth noting that Bolt of Glory was actually updated in the Spell Compendium. It is way better :-P Bigger damage dice (a lot bigger), available to all clerics, and a little more explicit about doing positive energy damage (though still no positive energy descriptor).

[XmonkTad]

I actually played a character based on light spells before.
It was an Ashteri Cleric/Master of Radience with the sun and moon domains that ran around shouting "shining finger" and performing marriages during eclipses. Hideously unoptomized, tons of fun.
"Light of x" spells turned me into a healer, so my party liked me just fine (even though we were in a rainforest and I freaked out when wet).
You could just fluff it that all magical light is from the positive energy plane and play it that way. Moonblade (SC) is great against outsiders with spell likes but no ranks in concentration.

[MukkTB]

I was thinking about using divine meta magic to power out some blasts on a 'positive energy' flavored caster. Not very optimized, but could be fun. However these blasts look so weak that this just isn't going to happen. I'll probably just go DMM Persist and then throw a few of these in for flavor.

[NevinPL]

However these blasts look so weak that this just isn't going to happen.
Should've listen to what Darth Stabber said.

[Psyren]

Is "divine power" a useful substitute for positive energy? If so, effects like Consecreate Spell or the Silver Pyromancer's ability would work.

[Darth Stabber]

Should've listen to what Darth Stabber said.

This is usually the case :smallcool:

On a serious note, the key is that there is very little good DD, most of that good DD is elemental, sonic, or force, and most good DD is on either the sorc/wiz list or is psionic. The cleric list is largely devoid of good blastomancy, even druids are slightly better at it.

The keys to good blasts:

-Rider Effects: damage is good, but damage + debuff is great.

-No SR: this may seem a nitpicky point, but unlike a reflex save, spell resist is ll or nothing. Note that there are spells that are only partially affected by SR. This is one of the major reasons why people make fun of evocation, as almost all of it's blasts allow SR, where as conjuration blasts generally do not.

-No Save: not mandatory, but not offering a save puts a spell well ahead. I usually entails an attack roll, but so long as it's a touch that's fine (no attack roll, no save is even better, but RARE). Needless to say saves for partial are much better than save for nothing. Also having a spell target a save other than reflex is handy, if they are good spells to start with, especially since mettle is so much rarer than evasion.

-Multi-target: a good portion of good blasts offer this, but unfortunately this usually means reflex for half (reread the last point), and also frequently means SR=yes. The ability to hit so many things at once is one of the advantages of magic damage, but frequently means piddly damage on a lot of things so be mindful.

-Good damage type: One of the most crucial points, quality matters as much as quantity. Generally you can follow this chart to determine the quality of damage: force>untyped>sonic>any physical>acid>lightning>frost>fire. If you know that you are running into something weak to a specific type of damage obviously that changes the valuation for that encounter, but only for that encounter. Also note that force is rated higher due to it's interaction with incorporeal creatures. More exotic damage types are often better, but not always, so be careful.

-Lot's of Damage: if the damage dealt is enough, then have at. Most spells third level or higher are going to do 1d6 per caster level, if a spell deals more than that then you might have a good one on your hands (might).

Range: sometimes an issue (especially with cones). less of an issue for clerics

Examples
disintegrate: good. this spell just deals a crapload of damage, way breaking the d6/cl formula, it also targets fort which means that it works against high reflex types.

Fireball: bad for several reasons. Reflex for half (evasion for none), sr=yes, and fire damage. Avoid!

Orb of force: AMAZING. No save, simple ranged touch attack, sr=no, and the damage type is force, which is fantastic. A staple spell for mailman sorcs for the listed reasons.

Orb of fire: almost as good as orb of force. It's fire damage, true, but take the other good parts of force orb and add a rider of dazed for a turn on a failed fort and you have hurt+lockdown on a 4th level spell.

[NevinPL]

The cleric list is largely devoid of good blastomancy...
Because, like you said, that's not what clerics are for. Clerics are for buffing themselves, and others. Thing that should be obvious, for any one who read their entry, spell list in PHB.

[Namfuak]

Because, like you said, that's not what clerics are for. Clerics are for buffing themselves, and others. Thing that should be obvious, for any one who read their entry, spell list in PHB.

...And summoning creatures to aid them, and debuffing foes, and hitting things in melee...

[Cirrylius]

I mean, when you think positive energy, you think blinding light anyway, don't you?
Actually, I more often think O GOD O GOD O GOD I CANT BREATHE I CANT SEE I DONT WANNA ASPLODE, but yeah, blinding light is in there.

[Gullintanni]

...And summoning creatures to aid them, and debuffing foes, and hitting things in melee...

Clerics can fill just about any spellcasting role, save for blasting. Figures that that'd be the role asked for :smalltongue:

[Darth Stabber]

Because, like you said, that's not what clerics are for. Clerics are for buffing themselves, and others. Thing that should be obvious, for any one who read their entry, spell list in PHB.

There are limits to even tier 1, I suppose. You could optimize the crap out of it and have it be good, but at that point you have probably crossed the line from PO into TO (not to start a debate, that's just how I see it). Wierdly shugenja is a probably better for the "blaster priest" concept (though that may be just because it's not that great at anything, as far as full casters go, so you don't feel like you are losing as much by focusing on a sucky specialization), or a particularly pious sorc/psion/wilder. Druid could theoretically pull it off better than cleric, but it's going to do a lot more damage by ripping things open with it's claws/teeth/tentacles/ect, much like the cleric will do more by smacking folks around with it's morning star. With lots of splats, DMM(empower), and the right domains you could force it to work. A cleric of tharizdun with the force and madness domains and with spontaneous domain acf could work (madness domain for the always fun bolts of bedevilment, and force for several decent force damage spells, if memory serves it includes orb of force).

[Urpriest]

I've heard good things about Hammer of Righteousness (Book of Exalted Deeds). It's uncapped, and Divine casters are great at boosting caster level, so it should be a good metamagic seed.

[Darth Stabber]

I've heard good things about Hammer of Righteousness (Book of Exalted Deeds). It's uncapped, and Divine casters are great at boosting caster level, so it should be a good metamagic seed.

Good clerics aren't quite as good at CL shenanigans as evil clerics (which makes sense because evil clerics are better at most things), but they do have some of the tricks (just not access to the amaing consumptive fields.

Hammer of righteousness is not a bad spell, but it is single target, fort for half, and SR:yes, with 1d3 strength damage to the caster every time. This means that you either have to be conservative with it, or use some ability protection shenanigans.

[NevinPL]

...And summoning creatures to aid them, and debuffing foes, and hitting things in melee...
My definition of buffing is somewhat wide and contains all that + using Turn\Rebuke to smite the crap out of undead, plants, outsiders, etc., or persist everything. In short - buffing is anything that makes you better, gives you more options (summoning things, hold-personing someone, gives you more options), etc.
As for hitting things in melee, I don't think you can do it very effective without some buffing with Divine Power, or Righteous Might, so I stand by my previous post.


There are limits to even tier 1, I suppose. You could optimize the crap out of it and have it be good...
And there should be.
You can "optimize" the crap out of many things, but having your class\race list longer than some Great Wyrm's name, never appealed to me.
Classes are there do do specific things (at least in theory). Some are more powerful than other, and can do more, but still the idea is that diversity is good, and no one class, should be able to do everything, very well.


...PO into TO...

I'm not very familiar with all of DnD acronyms. What do "PO" and "TO" mean ?

[Darth Stabber]

My definition of buffing is somewhat wide and contains all that + using Turn\Rebuke to smite the crap out of undead, plants, outsiders, etc., or persist everything. In short - buffing is anything that makes you better, gives you more options (summoning things, hold-personing someone, gives you more options), etc.
As for hitting things in melee, I don't think you can do it very effective without some buffing with Divine Power, or Righteous Might, so I stand by my previous post.

The usual idea is to use divine power and/or righteous might, and the common board verncular "buffing" generally doesn not include turn/rebuke (that's a direct attack), hold person (save or lose), nor summons (those are damage or battlefield control). Giving people options is nice, and infact a very good thing, but buff spell generally refers to effects that give bonuses to your or your allies actions. Use what ever definitions you like, but here it has a more specific (though still nebulous) definition.


And there should be.
You can "optimize" the crap out of many things, but having your class\race list longer than some Great Wyrm's name, never appealed to me.
Classes are there do do specific things (at least in theory). Some are more powerful than other, and can do more, but still the idea is that diversity is good, and no one class, should be able to do everything, very well.

Your "theoretical" point is subject to debate. My own view is tha classes are containers for capabilities in the most complex pointbuy system the gaming world has seen (unlike 2nd and 4th ed which are more class based games). There are several competing views on what classes are, and most of them are quite defendable. And the point of tier 1 is that can do anything, often better than classes designed specifically to do that thing.

My suggestion only included a class variant, I suggested no dips and no PRCs. Spontaneous domain variant means you can swap a prepped spell out for a domain spell (instead of swapping for cures or inflicts). The deity is a published deity (and most clerics have one), and the domains are both in a couple books (they usually appear together because tharizdun in usual granter of both). Don't get me wrong, I could roll up my sleeves and get crazy with several different prcs and a boat load of MOAR POWAH, but I refrained since I don't know what PRCs would work in this scenario and am too lazy to dig right now.


I'm not very familiar with all of DnD acronyms. What do "PO" and "TO" mean ?
PO refers to "practical optimization", TO refers to "theoretical optimization". The main difference is that you plan on playing a PO build in a game, where as making a TO build is it's own game. Where the line is drawn can get hazy, and a lot depends on what the GM will allow, what's cool with the rest of the group, and just how far off the wall the build goes.

[Spuddles]

Firestorm fills CL cubes with CL d6 of fire. Pretty burninating.
Sutra Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/sutra-magic)has quite a few positive energy "spells". It's pretty decent feat investment, especially at low levels if you have a high wis score.

In particular, Celestial Flame and Flames of Jade deal positive energy damage. There are a few others in there that involve positive energy, I think.

Direct damage is always worth it if you can get enough of it. CoDzilla is largely predicated on wasting 90% of your spell slots on pretending to be a fighter, which is pretty stupid, imo. Using your turn to make attacks while covered in things that a Dispel/Disjunction can get rid of as your main schtick is kinda weaksauce.

If you're gonna persist-o-mancy, arcane is the way to go, really, because Ironguard and Ghostform and all that other good stuff that you can only get via spells. Most of the stuff clerics get, besides a handful of gems like greater consumptive field, you can pick up on items.

Anyway, look at ways to abuse nightsticks and just layer a bunch of blasting on. I've found that, in general, blasting is good if you're doing minimum 2d6 damage per caster level multi-targeted, save for half, and have a party with you. For the first 10 levels. After level 10, you're going to want to have like 2d6+CL static damage per CL to get around resistances and stuff. Most stuff with SR is easy to crack once you hit 7th and get Assay Spell Resistance. Great stuff to get scrolls of, too. That's just your base level- you'll want to empower/maximize/admixture/quicken/repeat/twin that stuff.

One of the easiest ways to pump CL is to go theurge (early entry) and pick up Theurgic Specialist (DR325). Lets you stack CL for specialist school, which of course means double CL for your specialty school.

Throw in Reserves of Strength or Intensify Spell to overcome CL caps.

You can easily build a blaster of arcane or divine that is at least as good as your cookie-cutter CoDzilla, but can also kill 10x as many things from a mile away as a swift action.

[NevinPL]

Your "theoretical" point is subject to debate.
There's nothing" ""theoretical"", or even "theoretical" about it, it's a fact. Don't believe me ? Try to Raise dead (without any additional items, broke-tastic races\templates combination, etc.) as a 9th level, single class Barbarian, or have BAB +6\+1 as a 6th level, single class Sorcerer. Or just look at Warmage - neither War-rrior (0.5 BAB...), neither Mage-ician (spell list).


PO refers to "practical optimization", TO refers to "theoretical optimization".
Thank you.

[Spuddles]

There's nothing" ""theoretical"", or even "theoretical" about it, it's a fact. Don't believe me ? Try to Raise dead (without any additional items, broke-tastic races\templates combination, etc.) as a 9th level, single class Barbarian, or have BAB +6\+1 as a 6th level, single class Sorcerer. Or just look at Warmage - neither War-rrior (0.5 BAB...), neither Mage-ician (spell list).


Thank you.

You can get 9th level spells on a commoner. So I think it'd be pretty easy to get raise dead on a barb and that BAB on a sorc (arcane disciple +4th level spells).

[NevinPL]

You can get 9th level spells on a commoner. So I think it'd be pretty easy to get raise dead on a barb...
1. Read what I wrote.
2. Prove it.


...BAB on a sorc (arcane disciple +4th level spells).
How ? Divine Power is a 4th level spell (either cleric, or domain). Sorcerer has 4th level spells from level 8th.
Secondly, there, the Wisdom based casting of them. Barbarian with 15+ Wisdom ? IMO very unlikely.

[Spuddles]

1. Read what I wrote.
2. Prove it.


How ? Divine Power is a 4th level spell (either cleric, or domain). Sorcerer has 4th level spells from level 8th.
Secondly, there, the Wisdom based casting of them. Barbarian with 15+ Wisdom ? IMO very unlikely.

Calm down, padawan. Impatience leads to anger, anger leads to stuff, and then suddenly you're on the dark side of optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35).

Thanks to Snowbluff for the link.

[Darth Stabber]

There's nothing" ""theoretical"", or even "theoretical" about it, it's a fact. Don't believe me ? Try to Raise dead (without any additional items, broke-tastic races\templates combination, etc.) as a 9th level, single class Barbarian, or have BAB +6\+1 as a 6th level, single class Sorcerer. Or just look at Warmage - neither War-rrior (0.5 BAB...), neither Mage-ician (spell list).


Thank you.

Why just raise dead? Any spell that cures death covers that particular job. The idea is to haves access to effects, not just having a specific named container for that effect. A druid can cast reincarnation and achieve the same end at the same level, there several spells and psionic powers that will do what you want, don't limit yourself, there are many paths to the same goal. There are all sorts of "build a pseudo-X without X" threads that have happened on this and other boards that demonstrate this point. Any thing can be made to do anything else and weird races, templates, items, classes, prestige classes, feats, and skills are how the game is implemented, so you don't get to discount any of those things.

[NevinPL]

Since you're unwilling to read what I've wrote, and are venturing into "straw man country", I have nothing more to say on that topic.

[Bovine Colonel]

What if you were to play a Mailman Sorcerer (Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Incantatrix, etc), take Consecrate Spell, and grab a few levels of Sacred Exorcist along the way?

[Lightlawbliss]

Full BAB is a joke... you just got to know a cleric who owns a greater ring of spell storing, and convince him to use it to cast persistent divine power on you.

[Darth Stabber]

Since you're unwilling to read what I've wrote, and are venturing into "straw man country", I have nothing more to say on that topic.

I've read what you've written, and responded as such. Reframing your argument might be more productive than throwing around accusations of "strawman". You stated that your point was irrefutable, and I refuted it. If you still believe you are right rephrase your point so it can be evaluated more accurately. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are making a "strawman argument". I honestly had a hard time making coherent sense of your post and replied based on my best guess as to what you meant,