Low level wizard under constant pressure?

[faircoin]

Some setup info. In short, human eidetic wiz 10 into dweomerkeeper 10. But right now I'm level 1.

28 point buy. STR 8 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 8 CHA 8. Human wizard 1 eidetic variant. Feats: eschew material components (level 1), collegiate wizard (human). Skills (to max): concentration, spellcraft, knowledge (arcana), knowledge (the planes), and some crafts.

Which crafts do I get, if I plan on using craft wondrous items a lot (with no forseeable exact goal)?

Languages - common, celestial, infernal, draconic, auran (better language here?).

My plan is to grab wizard 10 into dweomerkeeper 10. So southern magician (feat), craft wondrous item, and extend spell for that.

Spell mastery (lol... prestidigitation, summon monster I, summon monster II, silent image) into uncanny forethought. Later summon elemental [reserve] for the fluff, also not bad crunch.

0th level (prepared): detect magic, prestidigitation, ghost sounds.
1st level (known spells, because access to magic mart questionable): identify, scholar's touch, grease, summon monster I, silent image, nerveskitter, mount, true strike, sleep, mage armor.
1st level (prepared): sleep

Grabbing a crossbow to shoot with.

So anyways, we're in a large dungeon for most of our early (<lvl6) levels, sometimes returning to the city to do stuff. Our DM (and all the other players) don't know much about char op, but it's fine, I'm not planning on breaking their campaign, just ensuring that my LE wizard lives.

Downtime is not assumed. YES, I could talk to the DM about the lack of downtime should it ever become an issue, but I'd like to see if I can work around the possibility of no downtime. Similarly, our DM has no good sense of challenge difficulty, but I think as a wizard I can work around this as well.

We're likely to be under lots of attack, or potential attack, at low levels.

Hmm... any hints?

[Zanos]

Arcanist's Gloves are dirt cheap (500gp) and raise the CL of your next 1st level spell by two 2/day, which can make a big difference. You probably won't be able to afford them at first level, though.

A healer's belt (750gp) has charges/day for healing and is fairly cheap for what it does, nice if you don't have downtime.

You might be able to grab domain wizard with eidetic wizard for a bonus spell of each level/day, depending on whether or not your DM has banned it. It's very strong.

Scrolls are actually very nice to have at low levels, which makes eidetic actually a bit weaker unless your GM hates you for playing a wizard.

[Andion Isurand]

Well, as long as you are of the human subtype, I'd consider taking Able Learner as your first level only feat, so you can buy ranks in cross class skills at a 1:1 ratio.

Alternatively, to help make up for your low wisdom score... you can take Keen Intellect as your first level only feat... which allows you to to use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival skill checks and for Will saving throws.

If you want more initiative, having traded in your familiar for the eidetic ACF, take the Obtain Familiar feat for a hummingbird familiar that grants +4 initiative. Having a familiar around will also give you +2 to Listen and Spot checks.

If you're not going to have much downtime, don't bother with the craft feats.

[faircoin]

Arcanist's Gloves are dirt cheap (500gp) and raise the CL of your next 1st level spell by two 2/day, which can make a big difference. You probably won't be able to afford them at first level, though.

A healer's belt (750gp) has charges/day for healing and is fairly cheap for what it does, nice if you don't have downtime.

You might be able to grab domain wizard with eidetic wizard for a bonus spell of each level/day, depending on whether or not your DM has banned it. It's very strong.

Scrolls are actually very nice to have at low levels, which makes eidetic actually a bit weaker unless your GM hates you for playing a wizard.

I picked up eidetic because I like the idea, although our GM is a bit questionable (friendly, but strange conception of "fun" in DnD). Domain wizard, think I'll be able to grab it (they think wizards are underpowered and want to buff me). Between conjuration and transmutation... ahh, difficult choices.


If you're not going to have much downtime, don't bother with the craft feats.

Craft wondrous item for dweomerkeeper. Also, our DM is pretty story-reasonable (if not metagame reasonable), so even though we're in an intense dungeon right now, downtime will open up later.

I do wonder how artificers play in little-downtime games.

Oh yeah, here are some other questions.

Which craft skills to I get for craft wondrous items? Which languages do I pick up?

[Zanos]

I picked up eidetic because I like the idea, although our GM is a bit questionable (friendly, but strange conception of "fun" in DnD). Domain wizard, think I'll be able to grab it (they think wizards are underpowered and want to buff me). Between conjuration and transmutation... ahh, difficult choices.



Craft wondrous item for dweomerkeeper. Also, our DM is pretty story-reasonable (if not metagame reasonable), so even though we're in an intense dungeon right now, downtime will open up later.
Oh you're going to have some fun. This sounds like an interesting table. And yeah, eidetic wizard is pretty cool from a fluff perspective. Not ever having to worry about a spellbook is nice, especially at higher levels where very strange things can happen.

Language is very dependent on what your DM's world is like. Having the languages of any creatures you plan on binding/summoning is nice, so Infernal/Abysal are good picks since evil outsider bindings can get nasty. Elven could be good for a Wizard if your DM runs a campaign where elves are inherently mystical and have amassed massive libraries of magic or whatever.

Also, craft skills aren't required to actually create an enchanted item. As long as you have the base item to work with you can enchant it, and mundane cloaks/belts/gloves/etc. are very very cheap.

[Slipperychicken]

Fortunately, crafting magic items does not require any ranks in a Craft skill. Yes, you heard me right. All you need is the relevant crafting feat (ones like Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, etc), the appropriate materials, and any required spells. No skill points required.

Place your skill points where other people won't, especially "creature" knowledge skills. You are uniquely qualified to have awesome Knowledge skills. Dungeoneering, Nature, and Local (don't be fooled by the name, this one covers all humanoids and their culture) are good choices for maxing, and Architecture mixes well with explosives. A few points scattered between History, Geography, and Nobility will no doubt help in corner cases, at least so you get around it being trained-only.

You do not need to normally Identify. Casting it on off days will be sufficient unless it's a cursed item. Given the risk of cursed items, letting the fighter carry the loot (he'll feel big and strong) is a good way to reduce it.

Do not ever place yourself in danger, you are very squishy. Stay behind the fighters, let them draw fire. Do not be afraid to retreat if necessary. You should know this, considering your optimized wizard, but everyone forgets now and then and/or gets too preoccupied with roleplaying a self-righteous moralistic idiot to pay attention to survival.



At level one, Sleep is an excellent spell. I have seen it in action and strongly recommend preparing it at least once. Around level 3, the HD limit chafes and it stops being as attractive.

Mount is also a great, versatile spell. It's a getaway car, a roadblock, meaty cover, and a distraction all in one. And it lasts for 2 hours at level one, which fits everything but long-term hauling (for that, buy a Mule. Those things are pretty hardy for the price).

Summon Monster I is not a good spell at level 1, considering its duration. Spending the whole round casting for only 1 round of monster is a ripoff.

Nerveskitter can usually wait until you have enough 1st level slots to pop one every fight. Until then, you can get away with not preparing it.

[faircoin]

Oh you're going to have some fun. This sounds like an interesting table.

Haha, I very much like the players at the table, but not so much their ideas about char op. Like thinking monk w/ vow of poverty is OP (it's ok if I take VoP as a druid, though... almost sounds like a joke typing it out).

Not planning on making the DM cry. Despite their weird ideas, they are generally pretty reasonable, and will bend if RAW and common sense both support something. Not to mention there'll be lots of roleplaying.


Language is very dependent on what your DM's world is like.

Just occurs to me that since my fluff is summon elemental reserve feat, I should get the elemental languages.


Fortunately, crafting magic items does not require any ranks in a Craft skill.

I... okay.


Sleep is an excellent spell. I have seen it in action and strongly recommend preparing it at least once. Around level 3, the HD limit chafes and it stops being as attractive.

Should I grab color spray instead? It's possible this campaign will hit 20, so...


Summon Monster I is not a good spell at level 1, considering its duration. Spending the whole round casting for only 1 round of monster is a ripoff.

I like to think of this as part of my fluff (Summon Monster every level), but I think I can get away skipping it for now until I get magic mart access later. Do you recommend I learn something else with collegiate wizard in its place?

[eggynack]

0th level (prepared): detect magic, prestidigitation, ghost sounds.
1st level (known spells, because access to magic mart questionable): identify, scholar's touch, grease, summon monster I, silent image, nerveskitter, mount, true strike, sleep, mage armor.
1st level (prepared): sleep
The most important thing is probably spells, so it seems like the thing to cover. First of all, I'm not the biggest fan of sleep. It doesn't work that well if you're depending on a limited spell list, because it just fails at higher levels. It also has a one round casting time, which can be problematic in some circumstances. I generally prefer something like color spray. It scales better, and works off of a standard action.

I don't really get why you have true strike on your list at all. It doesn't look like you have anything that keys off of an attack bonus, so you're just making your crossbow skills marginally better. If you're shooting stuff with a crossbow, it's not because you want to be shooting stuff with a crossbow. It's because you don't think that you need a spell for the situation. It's a good spell, so you should either replace it, or maybe find room for something with an attack roll. Honestly, you have a good dex, and most things with an attack roll are touch attacks, so you're going to hit stuff without it. It's mostly for later levels, when you have enemies with good defenses.

Summon monster I is pretty mediocre. As has been mentioned, the duration is lousy, and it's all utility creatures. I'd just skip it, and certainly wouldn't throw it on a spell mastery list. I'd also skip scholar's touch and identify. They're a bit on the utility side, so I'd probably just wait till I hit a town, and start getting town spells there. It doesn't make much sense to prepare identify as one of your few spells/day. It's also frigging expensive at first level. I'd just pick up an artificer's monocle when you have the time and inclination. It really pays for itself, in both spells prepared, and money paid. The rest of your spells are solid business.

Just checking treantmonk's guide, benign transposition and wall of smoke seem like they could be useful. You don't have a cool fog spell yet, and the latter could suffice for a bit. You also might want to consider enlarge person, if you have a beat stick or two in the party. It's certainly a better option than making your own beat stick, at least for now. Ray of enfeeblement is also pretty sweet in general, and protection from X is always good. That's probably how I'd run the whole thing.

[Zanos]

I wouldn't worry overmuch about your spell choices now. Both color spray and sleep are limited to certain levels of effectiveness, but you aren't a sorceror. You can afford to take spells that might be useless later. With Collegiate Wizard you start play with...what, 10 1st level spells at level 1? Than another 4 at level 2? You should be fine. Take both and just stop memorizing sleep when it becomes less useful. I noticed you don't have enlarge person though. Giving the beatstick an attack of opportunity whenever someone approachs him is very strong at early levels.

[faircoin]

=I generally prefer something like color spray. It scales better, and works off of a standard action.

Agreed with your analysis here.


I don't really get why you have true strike on your list at all.

You're right, I was saving it for later levels, but not sure what I should get in its stead at this level.


Summon monster I is pretty mediocre. As has been mentioned, the duration is lousy, and it's all utility creatures. I'd just skip it, and certainly wouldn't throw it on a spell mastery list. I'd also skip scholar's touch and identify.

Agreed with your analysis on both of these things, but since this is a roleplaying/character background issue, I won't be removing any of these from my spell list. I just won't be preparing them. I DEFINITELY will change the spell masteries. I figured I'd probably end up using character rebuilding from PHBII to get the spell masteries for more important spells.


Just checking treantmonk's guide, benign transposition and wall of smoke seem like they could be useful. You don't have a cool fog spell yet, and the latter could suffice for a bit. You also might want to consider enlarge person, if you have a beat stick or two in the party. It's certainly a better option than making your own beat stick, at least for now. Ray of enfeeblement is also pretty sweet in general, and protection from X is always good. That's probably how I'd run the whole thing.

How does protect from X scale in later levels? Won't I have items that don't stack with its bonus?

Enlarge person is a good idea. Our party is 6, including me. Great sword Barb, archery rogue/ranger, healbot mace melee cleric, sword n board paladin, spearfightin melee druid.

Also the consideration about knowledges. I probably will be making knowledge checks to identify shapechange or polymorph or alter self forms. So I should be pumping them up, I guess.

[eggynack]

How does protect from X scale in later levels? Won't I have items that don't stack with its bonus?

It looks like it should scale pretty well. At early levels, you're not really getting deflection bonuses to AC or any bonus to saves, so that's probably the main component at that point in time. Later on, it looks like it's mostly useful for the other two effects. Stopping mind control is something you always want to be doing, especially at later levels, and stopping summon spells is great as well. It basically just shuts down SNA, though it really only stops half of summon monster, or rather it shuts it down completely for evil clerics, halfway for folks with access to good summons and a lack of knowledge about your buffs, and not at all for wizards who know your buff list. That's a pretty solid list of defenses at any level, though the duration is a bit weak.

For replacement spells, I usually heavily reference Treantmonk's guide to wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0). It's where I get the majority of my spell recommendations, so it's worth a pretty serious look. I especially like the guide because it makes the best case out there for evocation not being horrific. It's still worse than most things, but there're enough spells that you'll want to prepare at each level that specializing in evocation wouldn't be a death knell.

[Spuddles]

The actual RAW for Eidetic Wizard lets you get rid of your familiar OR scribe scroll. I would trade out familiar for Eidetic Wizard and scribe scroll for war wizard and grab improved initiative.

Precocious Apprentice (your favorite second level fire spell) and Fiery Burst (reserve feat) would be really strong low level investment.

Wild Cohort (riding dog) is also really strong at low levels, esp. if you get to choose its feat. Get it light armor prof. and put barding on it.

Equipment wise, you can get around a lot of checks with smart purchases. With a hammer, pitons, rope, and time, you can set a rope course that has a DC 5 check to climb. You can also set up a block & tackle to move heavy things (like your frail wizard body). You can take ten on all your use rope checks. With silk rope and 14 dex, that's 14, which is more than enough to tie a secure knot. For instance, the figure-eight knot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure-eight_knot) is a classic alpine knot, extremely simple, can be tied blind folded, under water, with gloves on, upside down, one handed, and it looks right when you tie it right and wrong when you tie it wrong.

A tower shield is amazing for taking full cover behind and repositioning yourself in combat. Say lol to enemy arrows and sling stones. Drop it when you want to cast or whatever. Unless you have a reserve feat, then you don't need to drop it.

A long spear is pretty handy for standing back and stabbing, if you don't have a reserve feat. Higher ground gets you a +1. This can be a better option than shooting into melee, as you'll have anywhere from -1 with your longspear, to +2 (higher ground, flank) while you have -2 total on your crossbow.

Spread you skill points out at level 1 into all knowledges. It's more important to recognize monsters than have max ranks in spellcraft this early in the game.

I also like purchasing a lot of MW tools to give +2 here and there. At 50gp each, they're pretty cheap. With 18 int, you could almost argue that you crafted a bunch yourself and start with x3 starting wealth in mundane gear.

[Vizzerdrix]

Until about 5th level, alchemical items work wonders. Even later on they can still help out in small ways.

[faircoin]

It looks like it should scale pretty well. At early levels, you're not really getting deflection bonuses to AC or any bonus to saves, so that's probably the main component at that point in time. Later on, it looks like it's mostly useful for the other two effects. Stopping mind control is something you always want to be doing, especially at later levels, and stopping summon spells is great as well. It basically just shuts down SNA, though it really only stops half of summon monster, or rather it shuts it down completely for evil clerics, halfway for folks with access to good summons and a lack of knowledge about your buffs, and not at all for wizards who know your buff list. That's a pretty solid list of defenses at any level, though the duration is a bit weak.

Very good analysis. You're absolutely right.


For replacement spells, I usually heavily reference Treantmonk's guide to wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0).

Thanks for the link!


snip

There's a lot here.

Well, on the subject of skill to knowledge, you are right, so I think I'll be doing that.

I was aware of the precocious apprentice trick for unlimited blasty, but it really isn't my thing.

Wild cohort seems like a solid option. Will consider heavily, but doesn't mesh entirely with character idea.

Tower shield is so amusingly out of place for a scrawny wizard. I like it.

I'll ask about the MW tools and craft gear.

[Spuddles]

Until about 5th level, alchemical items work wonders. Even later on they can still help out in small ways.

Oh yeah, alchemist fire is great.

So is lantern oil if you end up facing off vs. a swarm. It helps to have a party member carry all your junk.

[Alienist]

For crafting, by RAW all you need is (a) RAW materials (sorry) and (b) exactly the same requirements that the wizard needs for preparing spells.

Hence a campaign where an artificer can't craft is one where the wizard and cleric are utterly useless.

If you are thinking of crafting magic items, you might want to nudge the DM in the direction of the pathfinder item creation rules. They're a lot less broken than 3.5. In return for not being able to break the game over your knee at level 3 (which you say you didn't want to anyway) you gain the ability to not lose XP when crafting, which is awesome-sauce.

Also, I think things that are significantly cheaper than 1,000gp don't take the full 8 hours? This is important for making scrolls and potions.

If you just make one scroll each night before bed, then you can have some serious batman-utility going on. And with pathfinder, you don't actually even need the spell in your spellbook to craft it.

No xp and pseudo-ignore pre-requisites? Doesn't that mean in PF everyone with at least one crafting feat is as good or better than an Artificer in 3.5? Yes, yes it does.*

*Yes, I know that Artificers have other class features, but they pale in comparison** to the crafting pool and the ability to bypass certain pre-requisites.

**Metamagic on items is good but not great, and their infusions are generally <<<< proper spells.

[Spuddles]

PF actually makes breaking WBL much, much easier. You can craft while adventuring, there's a familiar archetype that halves the time it its master to craft, most pre-reqs can easily be met via spellcraft checks, and no xp costs.

This means that you can get double wbl very easily. As a wizard, you're not going to be using much other than wondrous items.

[faircoin]

you're not going to be using much other than wondrous items.

Enchanted shurikens, yo.

Our DM still thinks monks w/ VoP is OP. He's not going to notice enchanted shurikens. I think that might be worth a feat slot for craft magic arms and armor.

[Sith_Happens]

Somehow no one's said anything about Rope Trick yet. Starting 5th level (with Extend Spell), never* worry about nighttime ambushes again!


* Sith_Happens is not liable for the actions of enemies with See Invisibility and Dispel Magic, nor for the outcomes of any nighttime ambushes beginning with 1d6 nonlethal fall damage that may result from said actions.

[Spuddles]

Enchanted shurikens, yo.

Our DM still thinks monks w/ VoP is OP. He's not going to notice enchanted shurikens. I think that might be worth a feat slot for craft magic arms and armor.

Oh, wow, if there's that much cheese involved, awesome!

[Slide]

By the time you hit 9, you should be able to grab one or more spells to temporarily bump your skill check to a comfortable level in any INT-based skill.

So you're walking along and you think, "Self, I'd really like to have a couple new shurikens to enchant with stupidly cheap and useful abilities, but we're sitting here in the middle of this rock-walled dungeon."

So you cast Fabricate, with a target of all unattended iron within 50' in every direction. A few doors fall off their nonexistent hinges, a goblin cook is suddenly covered in stew, and the rock around you gets a little bit porous. And you have 9 cubic feet of masterwork shurikens at your feet. Make the fighter a sword too if you feel generous.

Take those shurikens, dump them into the Portable Hole that's where your Dedicated Wight lives, and tell him to help you enchant a bunch of new toys.

[faircoin]

Oh, wow, if there's that much cheese involved, awesome!

I'm not trying to break this game, but the DM and players actively don't recognize what I'm doing as cheese even though I spell it out for them.

It's like...

I could go planar shepherd of Dal'Quor, use 9 of my 10 rounds to give a huge monologue every turn, and spend the last round making our fighter invincible, and the table will still think I'm underpowered.

I could shapechange into a cryohydra, but as long as I don't one hit my enemies (aim my 12 3d6 breath attacks stupidly, for instance), I'm totally in the clear.

The name of the game is to not break the game, but to break the character, and then use said character to optimally perform suboptimal tasks.

This is what you get when your table thinks psionics are OP, ToB is anime, and monks w/ VoP are too good. Fortunately, my table is otherwise a reasonable group of people, so it's still fun to play with them.


By the time you hit 9, you should be able to grab one or more spells to temporarily bump your skill check to a comfortable level in any INT-based skill.

So you're walking along and you think, "Self, I'd really like to have a couple new shurikens to enchant with stupidly cheap and useful abilities, but we're sitting here in the middle of this rock-walled dungeon."

So you cast Fabricate, with a target of all unattended iron within 50' in every direction. A few doors fall off their nonexistent hinges, a goblin cook is suddenly covered in stew, and the rock around you gets a little bit porous. And you have 9 cubic feet of masterwork shurikens at your feet. Make the fighter a sword too if you feel generous.

Take those shurikens, dump them into the Portable Hole that's where your Dedicated Wight lives, and tell him to help you enchant a bunch of new toys.

This is pretty amazing to imagine. Will have to do.

[Jack_Simth]

Downtime is not assumed. YES, I could talk to the DM about the lack of downtime should it ever become an issue, but I'd like to see if I can work around the possibility of no downtime. Similarly, our DM has no good sense of challenge difficulty, but I think as a wizard I can work around this as well.
Well, crafting takes 8 hours a day, you're usually going to be actively adventuring for maybe 1-6 hours a day, you need 8 hours a day of rest, and 1 hour to prepare spells. You should be able to do the math as to why you don't really need downtime to craft magic items.

[faircoin]

Well, crafting takes 8 hours a day, you're usually going to be actively adventuring for maybe 1-6 hours a day, you need 8 hours a day of rest, and 1 hour to prepare spells. You should be able to do the math as to why you don't really need downtime to craft magic items.

You did the math for me. :)

I guess I overestimated how much downtime is required to craft. I think the difficulty is getting 8 hours of uninterrupted work.

[Jack_Simth]

You did the math for me. :)

I guess I overestimated how much downtime is required to craft. I think the difficulty is getting 8 hours of uninterrupted work.Check it out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process. (emphasis added)

If you don't have a suitable place for crafting, as a Wizard, you have other problems.

[faircoin]

I suppose at the level when I start crafting, it should be trivial to find a place to work uninterrupted for 8 hours.

[Jack_Simth]

I suppose at the level when I start crafting, it should be trivial to find a place to work uninterrupted for 8 hours.
Long about level 5, yes (extended Rope Trick; bring an Everburning Torch).

[re_e]

My plan is to grab wizard 10 into dweomerkeeper 10. So southern magician (feat)

Southern magician is useless, dweomerkeeper requires magic domain. You need a cleric level anyway.