Giving Paladin ToB Maneuvers

[CRtwenty]

Say that instead of Spell Progression, Paladins instead start gaining Maneuvers and Stances as a Crusader four levels lower than their Paladin levels.

Would this weaken or improve the Paladin? All other abilities would be unchanged, and they'd get no other Crusader abilities. What about a Ranger?

[Galvin]

So at 20th level a paladin would be a 16 level crusader? Gaining full access to 8th level crusader M/S? That my friend would cause some serious damage. The paladin can accomplish almost anything that a crusader can with his maneuvers but with better class features to make up for the lost 9th level maneuvers. Overpowered, I say!

[DeltaEmil]

So at 20th level a paladin would be a 16 level crusader? Gaining full access to 8th level crusader M/S? That my friend would cause some serious damage. The paladin can accomplish almost anything that a crusader can with his maneuvers but with better class features to make up for the lost 9th level maneuvers. Overpowered, I say!My eyes must be getting bad. I don't see any blue font being applied to the text that would designate it as sarcasm.

[eggynack]

So at 20th level a paladin would be a 16 level crusader? Gaining full access to 8th level crusader M/S? That my friend would cause some serious damage. The paladin can accomplish almost anything that a crusader can with his maneuvers but with better class features to make up for the lost 9th level maneuvers. Overpowered, I say!
What better class features? It's basically just the divine grace and the special mount. I'd generally prefer the crusader class features. I can just buy a horse if I need a horse. Most of the best paladin tricks have casting involved, so those aren't any help here. ACF's could change things a bit, but I'd probably prefer the crusader class ability progression, even if it were against a paladin with full crusader advancement.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I don't see why you'd have the delay. Drop spell-casting and add Crusader Progression at level 1.

Honestly, I'm not even sure it is necessary to drop spell-casting.

Monk 2.0 -> Swordsage progression/recovery added in

Fighter 2.0 -> Warblade progression/recovery added in

Paladin 2.0 -> Crusader progression/recovery added in


Are any of those definitely better than the ToB classes?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ranger 2.0 -> Swordsage progression/recovery added in

[Namfuak]

Hmm, I don't see why you'd have the delay. Drop spell-casting and add Crusader Progression at level 1.

Honestly, I'm not even sure it is necessary to drop spell-casting.

Monk 2.0 -> Swordsage progression/recovery added in

Fighter 2.0 -> Warblade progression/recovery added in

Paladin 2.0 -> Crusader progression/recovery added in


Are any of those definitely better than the ToB classes?

If you keep the spellcasting they probably are. Without it I'd say they are still weaker, but still in the same tier.

[Karnith]

Honestly, I'm not even sure it is necessary to drop spell-casting.
[...]
Are any of those definitely better than the ToB classes?
Paladins already have a higher op-ceiling than Crusaders do, and a Paladin with all its normal class features and Crusader maneuvers would be a good deal better than the Crusader.

If you actually traded out a Paladin's spellcasting for Crusader maneuvers, it would make the class a good deal better at low op-levels, because Maneuvers are fairly newb-proof, but worse at higher op-levels.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I'm not well-versed in Paladin optimizing.

How about splitting the difference, Paladin 2.0 has no 3rd or 4th level spells on their spell-list. Casting is Charisma-based (like Pathfinder). They keep the 3rd/4th slots.


Paladins already have a higher op-ceiling than Crusaders do, and a Paladin with all its normal class features and Crusader maneuvers would be a good deal better than the Crusader.

If you actually traded out a Paladin's spellcasting for Crusader maneuvers, it would make the class a good deal better at low op-levels, because Maneuvers are fairly newb-proof, but worse at higher op-levels.

That's kind of the point of ToB though, right?

[Gwendol]

What better class features? It's basically just the divine grace and the special mount. I'd generally prefer the crusader class features. I can just buy a horse if I need a horse. Most of the best paladin tricks have casting involved, so those aren't any help here. ACF's could change things a bit, but I'd probably prefer the crusader class ability progression, even if it were against a paladin with full crusader advancement.

I think you forgot spells+battle blessing and the turn undead fueled feats. This will be one mean tank!

[eggynack]

I think you forgot spells+battle blessing and the turn undead fueled feats. This will be one mean tank!
I did not do so. The proposed class would be trading out spells for the maneuvers, which means no access to battle blessing, or any of the other cool paladin spell things (I'm thinking mystic fire knight and sword of the arcane order offhand). Turn undead fueled feats are sometimes nice, so I may have neglected to consider ones that are not DMM: persist. Still, a few turn undead feats that can't be related to casting probably isn't enough to push paladins over the top on their own. I may not have done enough research into them though.

[Gwendol]

Sorry, my bad. We're actually discussing both the spell-less paladin with maneuvers, and the spell casting paladin with maneuvers. With the right ACF's and feats the spell less paladin with maneuvers can be made interesting.

Think divine spirit acf, smite to song, possibly harmonious knight, and something divine vigor (or whatever).

[Rebel7284]

There is already a way to do crusader/paladin combination.

Paladin 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/x 5 :P

As for trading spells for maneuvers ACF I think it's a powerful but fair one. There are several nice Paladin spells, but unless you are really focusing on your spells (battle blessing + sword of the arcane order) maneuvers pull ahead in power and flexibility by the mid-late levels.

This ACF pushes paladins into tier 3 and actually gives a reason to take paladin for more than 4 levels (5 if you are doing super-mount.)

[Gwendol]

Ok, so building a paladin with the "crusader acf" replacing spellcasting.

Paladin 20
Level
1 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day (power attack, from smite to song, IC +1)
2 divine grace lay on hands
3 aura of courage, divine health (extra smite)
4 turn undead, maneuvers as crusader 1
5 smite evil 2/day, divine spirit (healing spirit)
6 harmonious knight ACF inspire competence (song of the heart)
8 IC +2
9 harmonious knight ACF inspire greatness (Divine vigor)
10 Smite evil 3/day
11 divine spirit (spirit of combat)
12 IC +3 (Words of creation)
14 IC +4
15 Smite evil 4, (extra maneuvers)
16 Divine spirit (Heroism)
18 (divine might)
20 smite evil 5, divine spirit (fallen), IC+5

There you have it. Depending on your reading of WoC, this paladin adds +12 or +14 to attack and damage when using inspire courage (6 times a day), can dump WIS and pump CHA, can heal like crazy, has DR 10/-, grants fast healing, and can do maneuvers and stances like a 16th level crusader. I'd say that's likely to be significantly more powerful than a straight crusader.

[Rebel7284]

There you have it. Depending on your reading of WoC, this paladin adds +12 or +14 to attack and damage when using inspire courage (6 times a day), can dump WIS and pump CHA, can heal like crazy, has DR 10/-, grants fast healing, and can do maneuvers and stances like a 16th level crusader. I'd say that's likely to be significantly more powerful than a straight crusader.

Better? Perhaps. Not significantly or consistently so.

Addressing point by point.

Crusaders smite twice a day, plus furious counterstrike gives a crusader similar bonuses. However, a crusader indeed cannot share it with his party.

A single class Crusader can also dump wisdom. As a matter of fact, I see NO reason for a crusader to have wisdom....

Crusader delayed damage pool often acts like DR 30/-... Sure it's less effective against armies of low level mooks, but much more effective against the real threats. Diehard for free helps too.

As far as healing like crazy, a single class crusader gets actual HEAL as a maneuver. Pretty sure that qualifies as more "crazy healing" than the paladin build can do.

Note I didn't even account for feats and there are some that can boost the crusader's effectiveness in various areas.

[Gwendol]

Eh, there is no reason for why this paladin acf build would not pick healing maneuvers. And I don't think you realize just how much healing this paladin can do. Lay on hands only is 20xCHAx2 for the spirit, plus your own lay on hands which are swift actions!
Also, With Inspire Courage (using the Badge of Valor, Inspire Greatness (4 targets at once), Words of Creation, and the Spirit of Combat all active, your entire team is looking at +6d10 HD, +23 attack, +17 damage per attack, +4 Fortitude, and +12 on saves vs Fear (not counting your Aura of Courage if the spirit and your team happen to be near you) for 5 rounds (before either the Greatness or the Courage or both wears off; the spirit lasts 2 minutes).

[navar100]

Say that instead of Spell Progression, Paladins instead start gaining Maneuvers and Stances as a Crusader four levels lower than their Paladin levels.

Would this weaken or improve the Paladin? All other abilities would be unchanged, and they'd get no other Crusader abilities. What about a Ranger?

If you're willing to do this much, why aren't you going all the way and just use the Crusader?

[Rebel7284]

Eh, there is no reason for why this paladin acf build would not pick healing maneuvers. And I don't think you realize just how much healing this paladin can do. Lay on hands only is 20xCHAx2 for the spirit, plus your own lay on hands which are swift actions!
Also, With Inspire Courage (using the Badge of Valor, Inspire Greatness (4 targets at once), Words of Creation, and the Spirit of Combat all active, your entire team is looking at +6d10 HD, +23 attack, +17 damage per attack, +4 Fortitude, and +12 on saves vs Fear (not counting your Aura of Courage if the spirit and your team happen to be near you) for 5 rounds (before either the Greatness or the Courage or both wears off; the spirit lasts 2 minutes).

If you are going this far with inspire courage optimization, why not pick up Dragonfire Inspiration and convert that to +12D6 damage while you're at it?

Also, while that paladin can pick up healing maneuvers, Strike of Righteous Vitality is out of reach due to being 9th level.

[Gwendol]

If you are going this far with inspire courage optimization, why not pick up Dragonfire Inspiration and convert that to +12D6 damage while you're at it?

Also, while that paladin can pick up healing maneuvers, Strike of Righteous Vitality is out of reach due to being 9th level.

Because IMO it's not worth losing the to-hit bonus over elemental damage. If you have a DFI bard in the party however, you can stack the songs.
Also, the paladin gains Diehard when using the Heroism divine spirit at level 16.

EDIT: In any case, this crusader acf idea helps lift the optimization floor of the paladin, but also restricts the ceiling. In my example, the paladin is different from the straight crusader, but hardly behind in power or versatility (rather somewhat ahead).

[Keld Denar]

Monk 2.0 -> Swordsage progression/recovery added in


Monk 2.25 -> Drop all monk SLAs and add in PsyWar PP and power progression.

[Spuddles]

What better class features? It's basically just the divine grace and the special mount. I'd generally prefer the crusader class features. I can just buy a horse if I need a horse. Most of the best paladin tricks have casting involved, so those aren't any help here. ACF's could change things a bit, but I'd probably prefer the crusader class ability progression, even if it were against a paladin with full crusader advancement.

Just think of all the disease you could heal in a week!


What better class features? It's basically just the divine grace and the special mount. I'd generally prefer the crusader class features. I can just buy a horse if I need a horse. Most of the best paladin tricks have casting involved, so those aren't any help here. ACF's could change things a bit, but I'd probably prefer the crusader class ability progression, even if it were against a paladin with full crusader advancement.


Because IMO it's not worth losing the to-hit bonus over elemental damage. If you have a DFI bard in the party however, you can stack the songs.
Also, the paladin gains Diehard when using the Heroism divine spirit at level 16.

EDIT: In any case, this crusader acf idea helps lift the optimization floor of the paladin, but also restricts the ceiling. In my example, the paladin is different from the straight crusader, but hardly behind in power or versatility (rather somewhat ahead).

You can put both DFI and IC up and running at the same time. Lingering Song helps.

[Gwendol]

Yes, I know and I do. For this build however I opted not to. It's just worth the feat, and frankly I pick extra maneuvers over DFI. It also locks you into being silverbrow human, which further narrows the build.