DM point of view: Master Thrower/Palm Throw

[fl_swat]

I would like any responses, but specifically from DMs. Plz say if you are a DM or player in replies. Thx

Here is the direct quote of the ability:

Palm Throw: When using little thrown weapons (darts, shuriken, and daggers; the DM may allow other weapons), a master thrower with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll. Damage for each weapon is resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to either damage roll.

Would you read this as only your first attack can use this ability due to it saying "a master thrower with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll. "? Or do you think it is just clarifying to use one attack roll for the two weapons? And thus each attack made can use this ability?

Thanks in advanced guys!

[BowStreetRunner]

Both DM and Player.

I and the DMs I have played with have always treated this as 2 per attack roll. So any time you make multiple attack rolls, you get 2 thrown weapons for each attack roll. But when you have an ability that allows you to make a single attack roll and target many enemies, you only get one additional thrown weapon.

So for instance, when resolving Two with One Blow (another Master Thrower class feature) we always treated it as one thrown weapon that could hit both targets, but the second thrown weapon only applies to the first target, not both.

[Diarmuid]

DM and Player

Each attach is eligible for 2 items to be thrown.

Of note, precision damage would only be added on one of the 2 weapons' damage rolls.

[fl_swat]

Is this considered a volley or is there another reason you say only one gets precision? I didn't see it listed as such, but I could have over looked it.

[Fouredged Sword]

The volley rules cover it, but more specifically you can only get one set of precision damage per attack roll, no way around it.

[Urpriest]

It's one per attack roll, or a single attack roll that applies to both weapons. If it meant the only attack in a round it would specify a round, otherwise your interpretation isn't any more valid than one that thinks it can only trigger on one attack per encounter or per day (or ever :smalleek:).

I DM more often than I play, but for the record that should never matter in answering this sort of question. The rules are rules, and if you have a different opinion on what they mean based on what side of the screen you're on then you're basically the definition of hypocrisy.

[fl_swat]

I asked Specifically DM thoughts because most (not all) DMs have a lot of player xp which tends to mean more familiarity with rules. I also realize that there are players with loads of knowledge who choose not to DM. Mostly I wanted to avoid having kids and new players posting random thoughts and non WotC stuff here that we're pointless. I'm sure you've seen such responses on the forums before.

[Urpriest]

I asked Specifically DM thoughts because most (not all) DMs have a lot of player xp which tends to mean more familiarity with rules. I also realize that there are players with loads of knowledge who choose not to DM. Mostly I wanted to avoid having kids and new players posting random thoughts and non WotC stuff here that we're pointless. I'm sure you've seen such responses on the forums before.

Ah I see. I wouldn't worry about that sort of thing over here, people on this forum are generally pretty knowledgeable, and some of the more ignorant are often DMs anyway!

[Talionis]

DM and Player
Each attack is eligible for 2 items to be thrown.


Both DM and Player.

Each attack grants two items thrown.

It really should not imbalance your game. Damage Reduction hurts multiple small attacks much more than the damage from say a Charge. Low Optimized Charge will usually do more damage than this.

Generally, players jump through a lot of hoops to make this work at a level that is still not amazing damage.

Also don't forget that range on thrown weapons is fairly small, thus it loses one of the advantages that Bows the traditional source of ranged attacks has. Increasing range while it can be done also uses up resources for the character either in feats or magical items.

[Phelix-Mu]

Both DM and Player.

Each attack grants two items thrown.

It really should not imbalance your game. Damage Reduction hurts multiple small attacks much more than the damage from say a Charge. Low Optimized Charge will usually do more damage than this.

Generally, players jump through a lot of hoops to make this work at a level that is still not amazing damage.

Also don't forget that range on thrown weapons is fairly small, thus it loses one of the advantages that Bows the traditional source of ranged attacks has. Increasing range while it can be done also uses up resources for the character either in feats or magical items.

DM and player, since waaay back in the stone age of hand-made character sheets, pencil and paper.

I generally agree on this sentiment of multiple ranged attacks being less effective than one big attack. That's how the mechanics work.

The DR issue can be overcome, but usually not in any vaguely cheap fashion, particularly as some of the items that can be thrown are considered ammunition, and thus aren't retrievable (or it's more hoops in order to do so).

Now, all that said, optimization is a miraculous thing in 3.5, and hand a high-op player an ability that more or less says "hit twice as many times," and you should expect to see some impressive results. I personally am a big fan of Master Thrower, and it is a pretty impressive class to combo onto other builds. (The only real question I have is "WHY AREN'T THERE MORE MUNDANE PRC W/THIS LEVEL OF BENEFITS?")

I often don't bother much with sneak attack synergy, aside from maybe a first level dip into the halfling rogue substitution level at 1st if I'm playing a halfling. Even then, feat rogue may be a better option to get both the starting skill points and some of the feats out of the way (unless flaws are on the table). I'm also a big fan of sticking halfling monk substitution level in there, but by that time, the loss of BAB is holding one back.

I hope you enjoy the build. Ranged characters are, I find, enjoyable, a nice archetype if you want to be cool and not get pummeled all of the time.

[Samalpetey]

you can only get one set of precision damage per attack roll, no way around it.

Where is this stated?

[BowStreetRunner]

Where is this stated?

Rules Compendium page 42:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

[Samalpetey]

Rules Compendium page 42:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

Ah, all right then

[Fouredged Sword]

Greater Manyshot is the only exemption to this I know of.

[Blackhawk748]

I know a guy that did this with an Astetic Stalker Monk, he got something else (i cant remember what off hand) so he threw three shurikens per attack, using his Flurry of Blows, we called him the shuriken minigun.

[Talionis]

DM and player, since waaay back in the stone age of hand-made character sheets, pencil and paper.

I generally agree on this sentiment of multiple ranged attacks being less effective than one big attack. That's how the mechanics work.

The DR issue can be overcome, but usually not in any vaguely cheap fashion, particularly as some of the items that can be thrown are considered ammunition, and thus aren't retrievable (or it's more hoops in order to do so).

Now, all that said, optimization is a miraculous thing in 3.5, and hand a high-op player an ability that more or less says "hit twice as many times," and you should expect to see some impressive results. I personally am a big fan of Master Thrower, and it is a pretty impressive class to combo onto other builds. (The only real question I have is "WHY AREN'T THERE MORE MUNDANE PRC W/THIS LEVEL OF BENEFITS?")

I often don't bother much with sneak attack synergy, aside from maybe a first level dip into the halfling rogue substitution level at 1st if I'm playing a halfling. Even then, feat rogue may be a better option to get both the starting skill points and some of the feats out of the way (unless flaws are on the table). I'm also a big fan of sticking halfling monk substitution level in there, but by that time, the loss of BAB is holding one back.

I hope you enjoy the build. Ranged characters are, I find, enjoyable, a nice archetype if you want to be cool and not get pummeled all of the time.

Agree that Throwers and Master Thrower are really fun and can be plenty competitive. I've played them often and enjoyed many different variations.

But I disagree with your fear that optimization makes them too strong or gets them out of hand. If you apply an equal amount of optimization other things will be much more powerful than the thrower. In fact, it may require some optimization to bring a Thrower up to the power level of other characters that won't require much optimization. I believe for Throwers, they need some optimization to make them playable and fun. Which is why I like them, they tend to be underdogs. Master Thrower is just one of the nice things Throwers get.

In the end, it is a balancing act. DM's need to always be aware of these kinds of balancing to make things fun for every player.

[Blackhawk748]

As a rule of thumb you can usually let Martial characters Optimize a ton more than Spellcasters, as it takes that much more to be useful at higher levels, so i tend to let mundanes go a bit nuts on the OP side of things, because i realize how much work it takes for them to do it.

[Flickerdart]

Greater Manyshot is the only exemption to this I know of.
Greater Manyshot doesn't use a single attack roll, though. It grants one for each arrow fired.

[Fouredged Sword]

Doesn't matter. Volley rules are clear that unless individually exempted, a standard action can only provide one set of precision damage, regardless of the number of attack rolls.

Take the example given in the volley rule, scorching ray. You can get 3 attack rolls with it, but only one set of sneak attack die.

[Aegis013]

So would the volley/precision damage rules apply to Iaijutsu Focus? As I recall, Iaijutsu Focus isn't technically precision damage.

[Hatorri]

Rules Compendium page 42:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

I have a question about the Rule's compendium and with the example below.

Build: Swifthunter ranger/scout/barbarian (pounce)/master thrower multiclass with 3 attacks for full round action (more with TWF but wanting to make this simple without adding more complexity). Has Defensive throw, palm throw, and Weak spot
Example
1. If he moves 10' (no pounce) and he gets 1 standard attack to palm throw 2 daggers, I can understand the 1 precision attack with 2 daggers thrown.

questions now when charging (full round action) is occurring with the rules compendium's other than a full-round action clause.
2. If he charges the target without pounce and he palm throws 2 daggers, does each of the 2 daggers get precision damage?
2. If he charge/pounce and delivers palm throw on each of his 3 iterative attacks for a total of 6 thrown daggers, does precision attack to apply to each of the 6 daggers tossed since he is doing a full round action?

It was a build I was helping a friend make for his first time playing in a higher level campaign character that was centered around the palm throwing of daggers at point blank range. I'm inclined to see the charging causing the precision damage to now apply to each of the palm thrown daggers but would like some feedback on other's interpretations.

Thanks.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: What about the DM view of the Master Thread Necromancer?