Throw maneuvers + imp trip

[pilvento]

Do i get a free attack agains an enemy i just triped using for example... Devastating Throw? if he ends prone next to me of course.

[Terazul]

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Bolded for emphasis.

Trip 'em, hit 'em, throw 'em. Actually pretty stylish, when you think about it.

[Deophaun]

Trip 'em, hit 'em, throw 'em. Actually pretty stylish, when you think about it.
Problem:

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
The thing is, the trip attempt is part of a maneuver, and the maneuver does not allow the trip attempt to be subbed out for a melee attack. If you don't use your attack for the trip attempt, then you just don't use the attack, because there are no other options.

[pilvento]

Problem:

The thing is, the trip attempt is part of a maneuver, and the maneuver does not allow the trip attempt to be subbed out for a melee attack. If you don't use your attack for the trip attempt, then you just don't use the attack, because there are no other options.


Ill have to clarify that with my DM in that case, now just to be sure and put the combo together, if i have falling sun attack feat.
Throw, stun, free attack (SA dmg thanks to stun) ?

[Snowbluff]

Problem:

The thing is, the trip attempt is part of a maneuver, and the maneuver does not allow the trip attempt to be subbed out for a melee attack. If you don't use your attack for the trip attempt, then you just don't use the attack, because there are no other options.

Except that a Maneuver is an attack in this case, and Devastating Throw is an option made against another option (attack action).

Furthermore, why would it not grant an attack? Considering resource investment, there is no reason it should not work from a DM's standpoint. It's like a regular fighter tripping someone, except they are moved slightly. :smallsigh:

[Nettlekid]

But technically, you never actually trip your opponent. You make a trip check, and resolve the maneuver as a trip attempt, but the opponent isn't tripped before they're thrown. Success with the trip check=thrown, not tripped, so I think a DM would be justified in disallowing you from making that free attack.

[Snowbluff]

But technically, you never actually trip your opponent. You make a trip check, and resolve the maneuver as a trip attempt, but the opponent isn't tripped before they're thrown. Success with the trip check=thrown, not tripped, so I think a DM would be justified in disallowing you from making that free attack.

Subject of a trip attempt? They are being tripped.

Why? Tripped is not a condition. It is a result of a Trip Attempt. The term merely refers to being prone.


Being Tripped (Prone)

A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.

Further more.


"If you succeed in tripping your foe" That's from the description of Might Throw. So you are tripping your opponent, and they are 'tripped' (prone) from the maneuver.

There is no justification.

[Deophaun]

Except that a Maneuver is an attack in this case
A maneuver is never an attack. It may grant attacks, but that's a big difference.

Furthermore, why would it not grant an attack?
Because RAW doesn't say it does.

Considering resource investment, there is no reason it should not work from a DM's standpoint. It's like a regular fighter tripping someone, except they are moved slightly. :smallsigh:
I'm curious. How many times do I have to state, on this forum, that I do not care in the slightest what a group's homebrew is before people stop bringing it as some kind of refutation to whatever I've said? If you want to homebrew it, homebrew it. Pelor knows you don't need me to agree to whatever it is you want to do in your game (unless you actually expect me to play). Should I sig it or something?

[Snowbluff]

A maneuver is never an attack. It may grant attacks, but that's a big difference. Wrong. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_attack&alpha=A)

Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll.
This has since been expanded to include abilities that have a save.

Also:

As part of this maneuver, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against your foe. Resolve the throw as a trip attempt (PH 158),

There is definitely an attack here.




Because RAW doesn't say it does.
How so?


If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

I made an attack called Devastating Throw. I then get an attack to deal damage to my foe as if I did not use my attack (Devastating Throw) to trip my foe.



I'm curious. How many times do I have to state, on this forum, that I do not care in the slightest what a group's homebrew is before people stop bringing it as some kind of refutation to whatever I've said? If you want to homebrew it, homebrew it. Pelor knows you don't need me to agree to whatever it is you want to do in your game (unless you actually expect me to play). Should I sig it or something?

I give RAW, I give logical argument, and I give an idea based on how I see it playing out in the game. It's not a house rule.You can waste space with your statements, or you can back it up.

If you wish to learn more about the game, usually I would start with learning what an attack is.

[Deophaun]

Wrong. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_attack&alpha=A)
You might want to read that link. Very, very closely. As in, not just the first sentence. Then, you might want to actually read my posts here.

There is definitely an attack here.
So, by Snowbluff logic:
P1)Windows are transparent
P2)Windows are part of houses
C)Houses are transparent

[Snowbluff]

So I read the first sentence.


Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The Maneuver is an action intended to harm. A standard one, in fact.

Additionally, we also know that attacks are not limited to the "Attack" action. Spells that force a save are also attacks. Are you telling me if an Invisible Initiator used a maneuver, he would not become visible again?

Then I read the second one.

The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll.
And I showed you where in the text it has an attack roll.

Page 73 of the ToB. The first line of the Maneuver "Devastating Throw." You can find for free here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)


As part of this maneuver, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against your foe.

I am so sorry. I would advise you to save your misguided remarks for when you are actually capable of producing an argument.

[pyrese]

I tend to agree with Snow here. Tripped isn't a state. it is something that happens as part of a successful trip attempt. It usually leads to being prone, however both devastating throw and improved trip allow actions to occur between the target being tripped and the resolution of the action you took to trip them.

Improved trip:
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

now, my interpretation of that, read: RAI, is that it could be better phrased "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent with same base attack bonus as your trip attempt". This attack occurs for free, as part of your trip attempt. it only depends on your trip attempt being successful.

To continue on to devastating throw, the second half also relies on a successful trip attempt: "If you succeed in tripping your foe" (you trip an opponent). Since both devastating throw and improved trip both trigger off of the same event, even though DT has more prerequisites, the player should be free to chose the order in which they apply the actions. (Ideally: Trip, free attack, throw)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Throw maneuvers are trips. They use the tripping rules, they even leave the foe prone, like a trip does.

I suppose the good news is that if Improved Trip doesn't apply because it's not a trip, then trip's restriction of only working on creatures up to one size larger than you (god, I hate that rule) also does not apply. You don't get to have your player-screwing cake and throw it in their faces, too. It's either a trip, or it's not a trip.

But it is a trip.

[LTwerewolf]

Should probably reread the definition of a strike maneuver. It's an attack. Not all maneuvers are attacks, just as not all spells are attacks, but in this case it most certainly is an attack.


Strike: A strike is a maneuver that allows a special attack.