Help on Constructing a Bard

[FyreHeart]

Hello, fellow players!

So I am going to be playing a new campaign sometime in the summer/fall, and so this leaves me to create a new character. Already I've decided on a Bard, but I wanted to see what feats, spells, etc. would be best with this character.

Also to figure out an instrument for her to play. Nothing too stereotypical-bard or anything like that.

[OverdrivePrime]

There are near infinite options for a bard with that blank a slate. Can you narrow it down a bit? Do you want to be your group's primary caster? Do you want to be a melee monster? Do you want to rule the world through diplomacy? You can probably do all that with just one bard (and a bad mother of a guitar/axe) but it'll help a lot to know what aspects of barditude you're most interested in.

[Humble Master]

As stated above it would help to know exactly what you want to do with being your Bard. After all, the reason they are Tier 3 is because they can basically do everything.

One universally good Bard feat is Melodic Casting as it lets you cast and use Bardic Music at the same time.

[FyreHeart]

Mostly Id want my Bard to be a decent spellcaster and be so damn persuasive that its not even funny.

Also, for no reason, it would be hilarious to see a bard with a triangle as their instrument of choice.

[OverdrivePrime]

Also, what system are you playing? D&D 3.5? Pathfinder?

Ha! A bard with a battle triangle would be delightful.

If you're playing 3.5, most of the advice you're going to get is to push you toward the Sublime Chord prestige class, and/or heavy use abuse of Inspire Courage feats and items. Your mileage on these will definitely vary depending on what source books your DM allows in the campaign. I haven't met anyone in person who allows the Book of Exalted Deeds in their game, but a lot of people on this forum like it.

In Pathfinder is more of a matter of picking the Archetype that best fits your goals and then combining the right feats and spells to fit that theme.

Both Pathfinder & 3.5 allow you to be a pretty dominant caster who rocks the world with diplomacy, though in 3.5, the Sublime Chord prestige class is your very best friend. In either system, if you want to rule the world with a spoken world, max out your social skills and cast Glibness whenever you want to win (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html).

[FyreHeart]

Also, what system are you playing? D&D 3.5? Pathfinder?

Ha! A bard with a battle triangle would be delightful.

If you're playing 3.5, most of the advice you're going to get is to push you toward the Sublime Chord prestige class, and/or heavy use abuse of Inspire Courage feats and items. Your mileage on these will definitely vary depending on what source books your DM allows in the campaign. I haven't met anyone in person who allows the Book of Exalted Deeds in their game, but a lot of people on this forum like it.

In pathfinder is more of a matter of picking the Archetype that best fits your goals and then combining the right feats and spells to that theme.

Both Pathfinder & 3.5 allow you to be a pretty dominant caster who rocks the world with diplomacy, though in 3.5, the Sublime Chord prestige class is your very best friend. In either system, if you want to rule the world with a spoken world, max out your social skills and cast Glibness whenever you want to win (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html).

I believe we most often play a mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder normally.

The instrument I was thinking was either a pan flute or a bodhran, which is a type of medieval/Celtic drum.

I keep hearing that Collector of Stories is a good feat for Bards, too.

[Novawurmson]

Collector of Stories is, in fact, a skill trick found in Complete Scoundrel, but yes, it's pretty awesome. Good news: You don't have to spend a feat on it!

For any bard, I like Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder for Naberius for standard action talkin' plus using skills untrained is pretty nice (though not quite as fancy if you're using the PF bard if you're going to hit level 10).

[OverdrivePrime]

I believe we most often play a mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder normally.

The instrument I was thinking was either a pan flute or a bodhran, which is a type of medieval/Celtic drum.

I keep hearing that Collector of Stories is a good feat for Bards, too.

Okay, very cool. Then definitely line yourself up for the Sublime Chord prestige class.

Collector of Stories is useful combined with Knowledge Devotion, and I'd tend to use both of those with an intelligence-based melee warrior. Look into the Snowflake Wardance feat and maybe the Dervish Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) archetype if you want to focus on melee.

Humble Master was right on with Melodic Casting. Definitely pick that one up early.

What level are you starting out as?

[FyreHeart]

Probably we are starting at level 1 for the new campaign.

I keep hearing awesome things about Snowflake Wardance!

[CaladanMoonblad]

There are variant rules for Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) you should look into with your GM, such as making it a Prestige Class (like it was in AD&D). The arcane bard prestige class makes for essentially a musically-inclined Wizard build (for a more powerful bard).

Suggestions for race; lobby for Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm)(+2 Wis, +2 Cha) for a plane jane bard, or go with Gray Elf (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con) if you can do the Bard prestige class. Going Elf will let you use longbows/longswords and concentrate on Dex as a 2nd or 3rd favored attribute (with Cha being first).

Triangle is good... but Kazoo is better : ) Also, Perform (Singing) keeps your hands free when using bardic music to aid your friends.

[OverdrivePrime]

If you somehow have feats to spare, you can comfortably dump wisdom and grab the "Force of Personality" feat sometime around 5th level or so when will saves start becoming important.



Triangle is good... but Kazoo is better : ) Also, Perform (Singing) keeps your hands free when using bardic music to aid your friends.

Remember that you don't have to be musical to be a good bard. You can inspire the legions with Perform (Oratory) or kill 'em with Comedy. Or you can beatbox.

Here's an example of one of my favorite power metal bards. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=195112) He's about as cheesy as I get with character builds, but he was a lot of fun! I had my DM approve a bardic variant of the "Jade Phoenix Mage" prestige class (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17enKxDYfW0msMKnxxkRMKwmOr4GAj9ATKVq8ZUF-Nls/edit) for Tome of Battle that we worked out for a heavy metal bard.

[ericp65]

The Complete Book of Eldritch Might has a variant for Bard class that's worth considering.

[Gerrtt]

Your bard should play a zither. Or a harp strapped to his Orc hireling's back.

[LTwerewolf]

snowflake wardance combined with crystal echoblade and you can properly dump strength.

[Gwendol]

Snowflake wardance is good if you build for it. I'd go for optimizing inspire courage (pretty straightforward) and let that take care of the fighting ability. As a bard you can do so much more than simply slice people up, and you will likely work better without having to get that close to the enemy.

[DR27]

Do you already have a healer? Healing Hymn is great, but you have to trade out suggestion if you do. I usually opt for this considering suggestion is a possible spell known. Haunting Melody is a great feat - especially when stacking fear with your allies. Don't forget that bards can use runestaves - usually a pretty useful thing considering your limited spells known.

As far as persuasion goes - if you want to make that a major part of your PC's build, you should read The Giant's article (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) on revamping the skill and consider using it in your game. Gives actual crunch to the skill, removing much of GM fiat from the equation, and places it on your character's ability.

[OverdrivePrime]

Snowflake wardance is good if you build for it,
Yeah, snowflake wardance is for a very specific sort of bard. If you're not interested in narrowly focusing around 1 handed (not paired) scimitar fighting, there are probably better feats for you.

I (obviously) like the battle skald archetype - high strength and charisma, smash your foes faces in with a greataxe while howling a raucous battle song.

The team-buffer, ranged fighter archetype is kind of the expected 'standard' bard. Get yourself a high dex, a high charisma and go to town.

The primary caster build needs more investment in Charisma, as well as a decent dexterity and probably solid intelligence.

The skillmonkey bard needs a higher intelligence than charisma, and typically goes for a high dexterity as well, in order to sneak in and out of places.

All of these can work as a diplomancer as well, just make sure you get your intelligence high enough so that you're not spread too thin for skill points.

Bards are paper-thin in 3.5, and not much better in Pathfinder, so you're probably going to want good constitution as well.

The only stat you can really reliably dump is Wisdom, and depending on if you're focusing on melee or ranged fighting, maybe strength as well.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, I would recommend an archer or otherwise ranged bard. If you really want to be a fighty bard you could work towards the warchanter, or try a bardsader or bardadin.

Other popular choices are Bardic knack instead of lore, spellbreaker song instead of countersong, hymn of fortification (protection from evil effect, very useful).

[Saintheart]

Okaaaaaay...

- Song of the Heart
- Inspirational Boost spell (SpC)
- Melodic Casting
- Words of Creation
- Badge of Valor (MiC)
- Vest of Legends (DMG 2 I think)
- Masterwork Instrument (of any kind)

These feats, items, and spells will push your Inspire Courage buffing to very, very high levels, though it'll take you a while to pick them all up. The bard I deal with regularly puts out a regular +6 to Inspire Courage at level 10, and with Words of Creation switched on, it's a +9.

Snowflake Wardance is all right if you intend to be a combat bard, but I'd not recommend it for a few levels until you've got some hitpoints to take the front line.

Weapons and armor: see if you can finagle a generous reading of a Crystal Echoblade as a rapier, mainly because it frees up your mouth to do something other than inspire courage. For armor, an Ectoplasmic Skin of Armour (MiC): it's a glittery Venom suit that equips on a standard action and is treated as light armour for most purposes. Later on, Slippers of Battledancing to add CHA to attack and damage.

Other random stuff: Circlet of Persuasion. Don't play an instrument, or at least get more than one Perform skill if you can that includes singing or reciting poetry. Get that Diplomacy check up as high as you can, and become the party face as well as the party's go-to source of well 'ard buffs.

[FyreHeart]

Also, the stats I rolled for my Bard are: 15,16,14 ,12, 20 and 20. I figured out already that Strength is 14, Dexterity is 15, Wisdom is 12 and Charisma is 20.

What should I make the Constitution and Intelligence then? Because both are equally important.

[FyreHeart]

Was looking over some of the Feats I can get for my Bard. Since my character's race is Human, I get a bonus feat!

Some of the options I'm looking at include Jack of All Trades, Charlatan, Melodic Casting, and Nyph's Kiss. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Saintheart]

Was looking over some of the Feats I can get for my Bard. Since my character's race is Human, I get a bonus feat!

Some of the options I'm looking at include Jack of All Trades, Charlatan, Melodic Casting, and Nyph's Kiss. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Melodic Casting of that lot, mainly because it makes you depend on less skills. Melodic Casting means you don't make Concentration checks, you make Perform checks instead, and if you're not maxing your Perform ranks you're doing something wrong. :smallbiggrin:

[FyreHeart]

Also found out we are playing Pathfinder next campaign.

[SamsDisciple]

I really enjoyed reading treantmonks guide to pathfinder bards and I am considering trying his controller bard where the bard in battle is more style than substance. He uses nets and whips to trip/disarm/entangle enemies while using I believe its called dazzling display to make intimidate checks with every successful attack with your weapon focused weapon, and btw in pf you can make intimidate checks with a perform check because of versatile performance :)

[FyreHeart]

I really enjoyed reading treantmonks guide to pathfinder bards and I am considering trying his controller bard where the bard in battle is more style than substance. He uses nets and whips to trip/disarm/entangle enemies while using I believe its called dazzling display to make intimidate checks with every successful attack with your weapon focused weapon, and btw in pf you can make intimidate checks with a perform check because of versatile performance :)

I was actually reading that last night, believe it or not. Really helpful guide to bards, he has.

[OverdrivePrime]

Also, the stats I rolled for my Bard are: 15,16,14 ,12, 20 and 20. I figured out already that Strength is 14, Dexterity is 15, Wisdom is 12 and Charisma is 20.

What should I make the Constitution and Intelligence then? Because both are equally important.

As long as you're not a primary melee fighter, you'll find that 20 much more useful in Intelligence. A 16 for Constitution is better than fine. I might even switch Constitution and Dexterity. A +1 to AC, reflex saves, stealth, acrobatics and initiative is going to save your behind a lot more often than one more hit point per level, particularly at low levels.

[FyreHeart]

So after talking to our players in our group, Ive learned that one person is being a Paladin and the other a Rogue, I believe.

Now, as far as I can tell we dont have a primary caster (since Paladins, I believe after what he told me, cant learn spells until level 5 or so) at least for a while.

[Splendor]

1st: Nymph's Kiss
Human: Melodic Casting
Flaw (Code of arms): Artist (+2 perform, +3 bardic music uses)
Flaw (Arcane Parasites/Shaky): Versatile Spellcaster
3rd: Song of the Heart

Spells (up to 5th level bard)
0: Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Prestidigitation, Detect Crossroads, Message
1: Cure Light, Inspirational Boost, Loresong (1 min cast, 1rd/lv, +4 & +1/2 lvs to one skill), Charm Person
2: Alter Self (10 min/lv), Glitterdust, Invis

Prestige Classes
6th level in MindBender (Telepathy 100' in any languages)
7-10th level in Ruthar (pretty much turns you into a 1/2 elf)
11th extra level in bard (6th level gets +1 base and +1 to all saves)
12th level in Sublime Cord

[Malroth]

I've always been a fan of Metamagic song/Talafiran Song Persist builds. Always on Greater mirror image, Sonic weapon and Glibness Are loads of fun.

[Darcand]

Also, the stats I rolled for my Bard are: 15,16,14 ,12, 20 and 20. I figured out already that Strength is 14, Dexterity is 15, Wisdom is 12 and Charisma is 20.

What should I make the Constitution and Intelligence then? Because both are equally important.

With those stats, in PF, I would roll Half-Orc. Strength 20, charisma 20. Why? Intimidate is better then diplomacy. Put a point in it and take intimidating prowess at level 1; you'll start with a +16 bonus (+5 cha +5 str, +2 racial, +3 class, +1 skill) Don't roll a 1 and you can snarl your way through most encounters. The DCs are generally lower too, and it doubles as a debuff during combat.

Why a half-orc? +2 to intimidate is great. It also nabs you great axe/ falchion, so you can actually dish out combat damage. You also gain Orc Ferocity, and since you are a spontaneous caster with CLWs on your spell list it means that if you drop below zero you can 5 foot step back and heal yourself back to life. Think of it as 1d8+1/ level bonus hp.

On to other stats and then skills.

I would drop the 16 into Constitution and the 15 into Dexterity. Let's face it, you are a bard, if someone wants to hit you, they will. The bonus to your Fort save and HP is more likely to save your life at some point then the bonus to AC and Reflex. Plus, you aren't taking any skills that require Dexterity. We'll be there soon.

14 goes into Intelligence. Knowledge checks are great and all, but a game which requires them to win is poorly written. Also, you aren't taking points in all of them. A +2 is plenty. Not to mention that you already get more skill points per level then any other class (yes, I know the rogue says he gets 8, you're getting 10)

The 12 goes into Wisdom. Wisdom is a stupid stat anyway.

On to skills!

I recommend Oratory as your first Performance. It doesn't require your hands at all, so you can do it while swinging your B F Axe, or Falchion. It also gives you Diplomacy (incase you ever have to speak to the same NPC twice and care about his opinion of you.) and Sense Motive for free at level 2, using Oratory's bonus, not theirs. As your second performance I suggest Dance. At level 6 it evolves into Acrobatics and Fly (the only two not Stealth Dexterity skills you might want) There are other secondary Performances, but that is the one I would choose. It is also a visual. For your other 4 base skills I like Perception (yes, I said Wisdom is lame, but sometimes you get lucky) a different Language every level (something no one else has covered) Use Magic Device, and a Knowledge. For your two bonus skills I would score two more Knowledges. Choose ones that aren't covered by your party members. Let them excel at the vitals, your job here is to fill in the gaps. You do want a point in each uncovered Knowledge though, just for the +4 bonus, on top of your Intelligence +2 and 1/2 level bonus.

To recap: Fyrehart, Son of Orm gets himself separated from the party and runs into a Troll. It cries "FooooooooD!" Fyrehart bellows "FoooooooooooOD!!" back at it and rolls a 6 on his intimidate check (Troll, DC 10+6hd+4size-1wisdom=DC 19) The Troll leaves these lands never to return again and our Bard takes it's hoard of shiny pebbles.
Down the path he finds two Hobgoblins. The first one dies from his charge, the second one goes down two swings later after landing a hit. Fyrehart loots the bodies and continues on his way. Ten yards down the road he stumbles into a spike trap. Still wounded from his fight it drops him down to -2 hp. No worries. He 5 Foot Steps himself off of the spike through his chest and casts CLWs. Around the corner he finds the rest of the party recovering from the first encounter and politely asks them to hold his loot while he counts his XP. And so, with 1 failed save, 1 missed attack, and 1 poorly rolled skill check your character completed a level 1 adventure by himself. (Out of only 1 save encounter, 1 combat encounter, and one skill encounter; that is bad luck.) At level 1.

[kulosle]

Talafiran Song

What is this?

[Darrin]

What is this?

Talfirian Song from Races of Faerun. It's Heightened Spell on steroids. Use your daily bardic music to increase the spell level of an illusion, up to 9th level.

[FyreHeart]

After some careful thinking, I think I want this Bard's first Perform skill to be singing, since then I still have my hands free to use a weapon.

Feats I am still confused on taking, however. I know that my race will probably be human, meaning I can get an additional feat each level (I have heard Half-Orc as a suggestion though).

[Petrocorus]

I second Metamagic Song (DMM for Bard!), Song of the Heart, Nymph's Kiss and Words of Creation. There is also the Lingering Song from CAdv feat which can be interesting.

I also like the Bardic Knack ACF instead of Bardic Knowledge, but i don't remind the source by now.
EDIT: It's in the PHB 2, it allows you to make all skill check as if you had 1/2 of your Bard level in them, but it doesn't allows you to use trained only skills if you don't have at least 1 rank. In combo with Jack of All Trade, you're treated as if you had all skills (trained only too) at half your Bard level.

There is also a feat or an ACF which allows to use your highest perform skill instead of all other, i don't remind the name.
EDIT: Versatile Performer from CAdv. Work for Int bonus perform skills and gives you a+2 bonus if you use 2+ of those skill together.





Prestige Classes
6th level in MindBender (Telepathy 100' in any languages)
7-10th level in Ruthar (pretty much turns you into a 1/2 elf)
11th extra level in bard (6th level gets +1 base and +1 to all saves)
12th level in Sublime Cord

It's better to enter Sublime Chord ASAP, and to multiclass later. So, i would advice Sublime Chord at 11th.

I don't get what Ruathar bring to a Bard build?



So after talking to our players in our group, Ive learned that one person is being a Paladin and the other a Rogue, I believe.

Now, as far as I can tell we dont have a primary caster (since Paladins, I believe after what he told me, cant learn spells until level 5 or so) at least for a while.
The Paladin could do the Sorcadin route, it's actually more powerful and more versatile than straight Pally. Or he can be Pally/Favoured Soul on the same model. Note that Bardadin builds can be really interesting too.

[gorfnab]

These may be of use to you:
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936)
Bard Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8686)

The Bard build I usually recommend is Bard 8/ Virtoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtoso (advancing Sublime Chord casting) 8.

[FyreHeart]

After re-rolling for official stats last night, the numbers I came up for were: 15 (strength), 14 (dexterity), 10 (constitution), 12 (intelligence), 9 (wisdom), 17 (charisma).

Reasoning for my choices:
I figured that I wanted to be playing a "Controller" Bard (according to Treantmonk's bard guide).

My bard is taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) from level 1 and would need a decent Strength to overcome struggles. Wisdom is a dump stat.

I am trying to find feats or whatnot that would even out mostly the Wisdom-based stats (Like Perception which is pretty used in D&D).

Also, what the heck does the Profession skill mean? I am completly confused with that.

[Prince Raven]

1. All party members use Leadership to get followers.
2. Optimise Inspire Courage to give your party and all its followers extra attack and damage.
3. Kill everything in your path.
Bonus points if there are multiple bards in the party.

Arcane Strike from Complete Warrior is an interesting option for melee bards.