Holy Wight Maker

[virgileso]

Aligned weapons bestow negative levels to any who wield them that are of the opposite alignment.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.Now imagine an evil commoner who grabs a holy anarchic longsword, then rises as a wight with an awesome sword he can use to threaten more wights since he's either immune or bolstered by the negative levels the weapon grants.

[Galvin]

Ok... is there a question here? Or are you just pointing out that you found an awesome trick? I think that would work, however, I don't the commoner would have the class features to effectively use said sword.

[dysprosium]

I don't think it works like that exactly.

From the SRD:

Holy
A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.
Emphasis mine. The commoner in the example just could not pick up the sword. Or rather he is overcome by the power of the sword until he puts it down. Since it is not actual level loss, he isn't going to die from negative levels and thus not rise as a wight.

[Nettlekid]

I don't think it works like that exactly.

Emphasis mine. The commoner in the example just could not pick up the sword. Or rather he is overcome by the power of the sword until he puts it down. Since it is not actual level loss, he isn't going to die from negative levels and thus not rise as a wight.

Ah, except that

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.

So it doesn't matter that the negative levels never turn into real drained levels. If at any time they gain negative levels equal to their hit dice, they die. And they would indeed have that from picking up the sword. Even if their corpses lose the negative levels by dropping the sword, there's no reason for them to be brought back to life. And then, they were indeed killed by negative levels, so they should be brought back to unlife as a Wight.

[dysprosium]

Except that it is not an actual level loss. It just represents the fact that it would be harder for an evil character to use a holy weapon. The commoner would have a -1 to his statistics but is still alive. He is not slain as he did not actually suffer a level loss.

[dascarletm]

They are negative levels, but just for the duration of holding said item. They don't result in permanent level loss, but since he meets the criteria for being instantly slain he dies.

[Fyermind]

It's cheaper with a quiver of assorted alignment arrows. For less than half the cost of a sword you can have a quiver with 5 arrows of each of the alignments.

[supervillan]

I think the OP is correct, in that anything with negative levels (not actual permanent level loss, but just negative levels) equal to its hit dice dies immediately, and will return as undead spawn or as a wight if not given the negative level(s) by a spawn-making monster.

However, even if it's not strictly RAW, it would be ridiculous for a Good aligned weapon to create wights, even out of evil commoners. Certainly any weapon or item with an alignment can cause temporary negative levels, and certainly those negative levels can kill low level/HD creatures who attempt to handle such potent items. But I would rule that only evil items will create wights via their temporary negative levels.

Also, no evil intelligent undead would want to approach, let alone wield, a Holy weapon. Especially if that's the thing that stole its life and cursed it to wander in undeath forever. The wight, if so created, might take steps to try to hide or destroy the holy weapon, but would not seek to wield it. That weapon is anathema to the wight and it's very presence would be painful and distressing for the undead.

[dascarletm]

Deathless wights. :smallbiggrin:

[dysprosium]

Every reading of negative levels on the SRD explicity mentions a certain creature or spell effect that creates the negative level. These also go about mentioning the Fort save made within 24 hours, etc. These are the "true" negative level draining things.

Only magic items have the phrase "this negative level never results in actual level loss." All magic items that have this negative level all explain how it never results in actual level loss--meaning it's just a penaly akin to a negative level. Not to mention that these are all surrounded by alignment restrictions.

But let's say that these items actually kill those with the opposite alignments (which I disagree with this statement). The rest of the entry says: "Depending on the creature that killed her." Are we now saying that magic items equals creatures?

But hey start the wightpocalypse in your world however you want.

[Eisfalken]

Now imagine an evil commoner who grabs a holy anarchic longsword, then rises as a wight with an awesome sword he can use to threaten more wights since he's either immune or bolstered by the negative levels the weapon grants.

Uh... no. Wights are lawful evil. A holy anarchic sword will give them two negative levels: one because they are evil and holy gives a negative level to evil critters, and another one because they are lawful and an anarchic sword gives a negative level to lawful critters.

You're talking about giving Mr. Brand New Wight -2 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill/ability checks, make him a 2 HD critter for purposes of things like turning/rebuking undead or other level-based attacks against him, and you are going to take away -10 hit points, taking him from 26 to 16. We negate the attack penalty with the enhancement bonus of the weapon, but you're cutting hit points by nearly a third; you just basically gave the other wights a third of your hit points right at the start of every fight.

I mean, do this if you want to be silly at the table, sure, go for it. But this is in no way a serious way to threaten anything other than the wight stupid enough to try this. He'd have to have a boss-daddy +3 or better bonus before the holy anarchic stuff wasn't a problem. And maybe armor and a shield.

God help that poor wight when he faces another wight who wasn't stupid about his magic items and comes to face the upstart...

[Boci]

Uh... no. Wights are lawful evil. A holy anarchic sword will give them two negative levels: one because they are evil and holy gives a negative level to evil critters, and another one because they are lawful and an anarchic sword gives a negative level to lawful critters.

Unless there is a specific rule to override the general, wights are immune to negative energy levels as they are undead.


Every reading of negative levels on the SRD explicity mentions a certain creature or spell effect that creates the negative level. These also go about mentioning the Fort save made within 24 hours, etc. These are the "true" negative level draining things.

Only magic items have the phrase "this negative level never results in actual level loss." All magic items that have this negative level all explain how it never results in actual level loss--meaning it's just a penaly akin to a negative level. Not to mention that these are all surrounded by alignment restrictions.

That's simply a theory barely supported by the rules.


But let's say that these items actually kill those with the opposite alignments (which I disagree with this statement). The rest of the entry says: "Depending on the creature that killed her." Are we now saying that magic items equals creatures?

No, and the line "If not, she rises as a wight." could be seen as a catch all for every other affect, creatures, items and spells.

[dascarletm]

Every reading of negative levels on the SRD explicity mentions a certain creature or spell effect that creates the negative level. These also go about mentioning the Fort save made within 24 hours, etc. These are the "true" negative level draining things.

Only magic items have the phrase "this negative level never results in actual level loss." All magic items that have this negative level all explain how it never results in actual level loss--meaning it's just a penaly akin to a negative level. Not to mention that these are all surrounded by alignment restrictions.

BAD METAPHOR:
Everything that reduces your HP only does it temporarily. It doesn't result in a permanent drain on your total HP, just like the item. It reduces your level temporarily, but doesn't have the chance of remaining permanent.

In the rules it explicitly says that it bestows a negative level. In the entry for negative level it says anyone with negative levels = to their current HD is slain. It doesn't specify if they need to have a chance to be permanent, and since there is no verbiage to indicate the item's negative level to be an exception, it isn't. Maybe RAI, but not RAW.

[TuggyNE]

Unless there is a specific rule to override the general, wights are immune to negative energy levels as they are undead.

Nothing is immune to negative levels. Undead are immune to energy drain (by far the most common source of negative levels), but magic item alignment restrictions are not energy drain.

[137beth]

Nice trick, BUT I don't think the wight could actually use the sword without penalty--there is nothing in the negative levels or wight rules to indicate that it changes your alignment, so if the commoner rose as a wight and was still holding the sword, it would still have the negative levels (although its HD would increase to 4, so it wouldn't be destroyed instantly).

[Nettlekid]

Every reading of negative levels on the SRD explicity mentions a certain creature or spell effect that creates the negative level. These also go about mentioning the Fort save made within 24 hours, etc. These are the "true" negative level draining things.

Only magic items have the phrase "this negative level never results in actual level loss." All magic items that have this negative level all explain how it never results in actual level loss--meaning it's just a penaly akin to a negative level. Not to mention that these are all surrounded by alignment restrictions.

But let's say that these items actually kill those with the opposite alignments (which I disagree with this statement). The rest of the entry says: "Depending on the creature that killed her." Are we now saying that magic items equals creatures?

But hey start the wightpocalypse in your world however you want.

You seem to be confusing negative levels and level drain, which are very similar, but not identical.

Negative levels are a status condition, same as sickened or shaken. They impose a -5 penalty to HP, -1 to attack rolls, saves, skills, and make you lose a spell slot. They also come with the qualifier that if you have as many negative levels as you have HD, you die, and unless the source of those negative states otherwise, you will respawn as a Wight. These negative levels do not in any way represent level loss, losing a HD, going down a level, loss of XP, or anything remotely like that. Those things are level drain.

Level drain is when you go down a level, or lose a HD, losing enough XP to go down a level. Level drain comes about as a result of failing a Fort save against any kind of negative level which states that you must make a Fort save to get rid of it. This is described in the description of whatever gave you that negative level. You are quite right that negative levels such as those gained by wielding an oppositely aligned weapon, or those from spells like Enervation, do not result in level loss. As such, you will never lose a level from those sources. And you can lose levels from the touch of a Wight, for example. The result of gaining a negative level from those two sources is different, if only for the requirement of a saving throw.

But negative levels are negative levels, and while they may end up differently based on whether you gained them by a Wight or by Enervation or by a Fell Drain spell or by a Holy weapon, they act on you the same way, imposing the same penalties. And the qualifier about negative levels (not level drain, but negative levels) is that if you have affecting your person at any one time the same or a greater number of negative levels as you have Hit Dice, you will die and rise as either a Wight or other undead which bestows negative levels, as pertinent to the situation. A level 4 adventurer hit by a Maximized Enervation will die and become a Wight, despite the negative levels from Enervation never possible turning into level drain. Because it's the negative levels, not the level drain, which kills you. Similarly, an Evil level 1 Commoner who picks up a Holy sword will gain a negative level. It now has one negative level. It also has one Hit Die. Because it has a number of negative levels equal to its Hit Dice, it will die and rise as a Wight. It never even has to be level drained for this to occur.

Do you understand now?

[TuggyNE]

Nice trick, BUT I don't think the wight could actually use the sword without penalty--there is nothing in the negative levels or wight rules to indicate that it changes your alignment, so if the commoner rose as a wight and was still holding the sword, it would still have the negative levels (although its HD would increase to 4, so it wouldn't be destroyed instantly).

Hmm. I wonder if you can make equipment such that even a wight would be insta-killed by negative levels, raise as another wight, and so on and so forth. Obviously, an epic weapon (anarchic longsword of holy power, for example) can manage this easily, but can we do it pre-epic?

[dascarletm]

Hmm. I wonder if you can make equipment such that even a wight would be insta-killed by negative levels, raise as another wight, and so on and so forth. Obviously, an epic weapon (anarchic longsword of holy power, for example) can manage this easily, but can we do it pre-epic?

The question is, why would the wight pick up the weapon again?

[gr8artist]

mind control?

[TuggyNE]

The question is, why would the wight pick up the weapon again?

If you rig it right, it never has a chance to put down the weapon. This would probably require a locked gauntlet or some similar trick.

Hmm, let's see: find some commoner (either evil or lawful) that you want to lock in, Inspire Greatness to give them enough HD to survive for a bit, then some mind control to make them lock the weapon into the gauntlet, then let IG wear off and the cycle is in place. Alternatively, mind control some more significant enemy (probably LE already, for best results) into locking the weapon in, then enervation to tip them over the edge.

[137beth]

What about a cursed sword? One option for a cursed item in the srd is "character gains two negative levels." So Make it a holy anarchic cursed sword, so it gives 4 negative levels. Also, you can't get rid of it without Remove Curse. So the person dies, and keeps the sword in their hand because of the curse. Then they come back as a wight, and are instantly killed by the negative levels. Then they still have the sword in their hand, etc...

EDIT: Oh, right, add a delusion effect to the sword to make them think it is a powerful weapon, that way they will pick it up and be stuck:smile:

[TuggyNE]

What about a cursed sword? One option for a cursed item in the srd is "character gains two negative levels." So Make it a holy anarchic cursed sword, so it gives 4 negative levels. Also, you can't get rid of it without Remove Curse. So the person dies, and keeps the sword in their hand because of the curse. Then they come back as a wight, and are instantly killed by the negative levels. Then they still have the sword in their hand, etc...

EDIT: Oh, right, add a delusion effect to the sword to make them think it is a powerful weapon, that way they will pick it up and be stuck:smile:

Yeah, the only thing I want to make sure of is that the sword doesn't get dropped during the day or so that they're waiting to re-wight, and I think a locked gauntlet is the best solution; cursed weapons aren't necessarily able to keep you from dropping them for a bit, just keep you from leaving them behind.

Come to think of it, actually, the simplest solution is just to make the weapon a spiked gauntlet. Boom, done. Probably still use a curse to make it give negative levels though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This is a pretty good adventure hook. A town is being plagued by Wights. People are disappearing, and Wights are seeming to pop out of nowhere. Turns out a CE Sorcerer crafted a beautiful, Anarchic Unholy Longsword. He offers the blade to do gooder Commoner's who help him, as a reward. The poor saps, seeing the massive value of the sword, eagerly take it, dieing the second they grasp the pummel. The Sorcerer then proceeds to hide the body(ies) around town, and watch the chaos of a random hungry Wight attacks.

If the PCs don't do something, the entire town will be wiped out, and start the Wightpocalypse.

[Sapreaver]

Most commoners are neutral aren't they?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Most commoners are neutral aren't they?

Thats why the Sorcerer finds do gooder Commoners. That or Detect Good/Law spells should suffice to find marks.