2 game questions 3.5/pf

[elonin]

I hate the whole concept of alignment. If I were to get rid of alignment effects what would would need to be removed? Is there a good way to salvage detect alignment axis spells?

Has anyone done a rewrite of the spell system to be more like the spell list system in merp and rolemaster? I was thinking of advancing a schools worth of spells or two per level.

[KillianHawkeye]

You can get rid of alignments and just have the detect alignment and protection from alignment spells only work on things like Outsiders with alignment subtypes (angels, devils, etc.).

[BowStreetRunner]

I've played in a game where the default for any creature was 'unaligned'. The only creatures or characters with an actual alignment were either creatures like elonin pointed out - those that had an actual alignment subtype - or anyone with a class that actually had an aura (like paladin or cleric). Since the majority of creatures in the game were not considered to have chosen a 'side' all of the alignment-based spells and effects became far less valuable and tended to see much less use. When they did appear it was usually something fairly special - like having to find an aligned weapon to go against a demon with DR/good. Thematically, it actually felt better than everyone having an alignment.

I should also point out that True Neutral and Unaligned were two completely different points of view. The Unaligned did not have any particularly strong feelings about such philosophical concepts. True Neutrals were actually committed to balance and would side with evil as often as good, chaos as often as law.

[Yora]

The easy way to go is that only outsiders with the good, evil, law, and chaos subtypes can have alignments that are different than neutral.
Anyone else, including all characters, is always neutral.

The more extreme solution is to remove all spells and items that are based on alignment. For outsiders, Damage Reductions that requires good or evil weapons would probably best be replaced by simply magic weapons. It's way cheaper than a good or evil weapon would be, but it doesn't come up that often to begin with and shouldn't shake up the difficulty of encounters in any meaningful way.

Paladins would obviously not exist and clerics would not be able to take the alignment domains.

That's about it.

[Actana]

Personally, I remove all alignments and just be done with it that way. Spells and abilities that work with alignments, like Detect Evil or Protection from Evil work on subtypes. Makes them feel a bit less useful, but more noteworthy when they get used: paladins now use Detect Evil to root out actually and thoroughly evil beings like demons and devils. Although, there's nothing preventing a demon from being "good", however unlikely. Damage reduction is kept the way it is. Weapons that are infused with "good" now function against DR, and likewise with DR/evil. So, in essence, what pretty much everyone said before me.

The Smite Evil ability of paladins should also be reduced to just "Smite" and make it work on everyone. Due to no alignments, I'd recommend changing the paladin's code of conduct making it much harder to fall (because you don't automatically fall for associating with evil people anymore. Demons, maybe, but that's more acceptable). Personally I don't even use the code, which is a relief for any paladin players I have.

[Thrudd]

I hate the whole concept of alignment. If I were to get rid of alignment effects what would would need to be removed? Is there a good way to salvage detect alignment axis spells?

Has anyone done a rewrite of the spell system to be more like the spell list system in merp and rolemaster? I was thinking of advancing a schools worth of spells or two per level.

I might say for the purposes of those spells good is replaced with positive energy and evil with negative energy. Detect evil/good detects sources of negative/positive energy, from the negative/positive material planes or outer planes/deities. detect law/chaos is basically meaningless, so anything with DR/law or chaos will need to be removed. Or create another axis of cosmic powers to represent those forces on the outer planes as well, like "wyld" and "weave" or somesuch. Outsider creature from Limbo are manifestations of "wyld" energy and will have DR/weave, Outsiders of Nirvana are pure "weave" creatures and DR/wyld. So detect alignment is really detect extra-planar power source. All the classes still exist exactly the same as they do now. Paladins and good clerics abilities only harm those creatures which possess negative energy traits by channeling positive energy. This, of course, implies that undead are creatures of negative energy, so they can be detected by the spell, and turned or destroyed by the positive energy channeled from the deities/outer planes. Protection from-X, of course will also only apply to these extra-planar energy sources and not material creatures with different codes of ethics or social behavior. Now, if we've got tieflings and aasimars or other beings of multi-planar backgrounds, there may be some room for interpretation by the GM...just how much will they be affected by these types of spells, if at all? If they have some supernatural powers due to their heritage, they may also be detected by the spell and affected by protection circles to some extent.

[Drachasor]

The more extreme solution is to remove all spells and items that are based on alignment. For outsiders, Damage Reductions that requires good or evil weapons would probably best be replaced by simply magic weapons. It's way cheaper than a good or evil weapon would be, but it doesn't come up that often to begin with and shouldn't shake up the difficulty of encounters in any meaningful way.

Rename "Good" and "Evil" to "Holy" and "Unholy." Rename "Law" to "Order." "Chaotic" to "Chaos." This should solve most appearance problems, imho. Detect Good -> Detect Holy/Holiness. Then most are unaligned.

Most auras would work, subtypes would work, etc, etc. Things would still have their fluffly flavor and mechanics.

To mix things up a bit, I'd feel free to have good and holy to not be synonymous (even if they often were aligned).

Spells with alignment tags merely are spells that manipulate said planar energies and are not inherently of one alignment or another -- though they might give you certain sensations when you use them.


Edit: To the OP. As far as adjusting spells goes, any change takes a LOT of work. Schools are not balanced and some schools have essentials (particular some divination spells, but I'd say Mage Armor and at least some other defenses are pretty important too). Better to go a Dread Necromancer / Beguiler route and make more limited and focused lists.

Honestly, if I was going to rework the spell system I'd probably turn a lot of stuff into 4E-esque Rituals -- such as most anything that duplicates/replaces a skill. Then combine that with more focused classes.

Imho, there are two schools of people who pick casters. Some like blasting stuff and using big magics in battles. Others like a bunch of utility things. The later could potentially be happy with a less magical class, but they have trouble when they lose all that lovely utility (even if it doesn't have a big combat effect). Splitting up these aspects of magic is helpful, imho. Of course, these groups are not mutually exclusive nor do they cover all options, but the utility magic deserves special attention.

[Andezzar]

Spells and abilities that work with alignments, like Detect Evil or Protection from Evil work on subtypes.That would make many mind-affecting abilities much more powerful, because then Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) would be the first spell to grant immunity from them AFAIK.

To keep the usual game balance, just rename the four non-neutral alignment components into something else and attribute those properties to everything that normally has alignments or alignment descriptors. You might want to decide whether the equivalent of true neutral should exist.

Example: rename the components into the first four Greek letters: good->alpha, evil->beta, law->gamma, chaos->delta
Now a CG creature would interact with protection form alpha and delta as it would with protection from good and chaos as normal, but you would not have the pesky alignment system.

Alignment domains could still exist, but they might have other connotations, and might be more fitting to other deities, especially if you attach other fluff to the properties.

[Actana]

That would make many mind-affecting abilities much more powerful, because then Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) would be the first spell to grant immunity from them AFAIK.

Technically, no. Since Protection from Evil grants the warding ability regardless of alignment, it'd remain unchanged. The AC and save bonuses would work only on creatures with the [evil] subtype.


To keep the usual game balance, just rename the four non-neutral alignment components into something else and attribute those properties to everything that normally has alignments or alignment descriptors. You might want to decide whether the equivalent of true neutral should exist.

Example: rename the components into the first four Greek letters: good->alpha, evil->beta, law->gamma, chaos->delta
Now a CG creature would interact with protection form alpha and delta as it would with protection from good and chaos as normal, but you would not have the pesky alignment system.

I'm a bit wary of this sort of "fix", because it doesn't really fix anything. It just changes the names of things. Alignments still exist, but now instead of lawful evil it's "gamma beta", which honestly sounds a bit silly and isn't really that intuitive. The properties of alpha, beta, gamma and delta are still the same (and if they aren't, what do they represent?) as good, evil, lawful and chaotic, but now they just sound fancier.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, some spells might need to be adjusted, I see.

Protection From X going to 10 minutes/level and only protecting against mind-affecting spell from creatures of subtype X. It is notably less powerful now.

A low level general mind-protection spell might need to be added.

[Andezzar]

Technically, no. Since Protection from Evil grants the warding ability regardless of alignment, it'd remain unchanged. The AC and save bonuses would work only on creatures with the [evil] subtype.I could have sworn the warding ability was restricted to one alignment as well. Disregard this part.




I'm a bit wary of this sort of "fix", because it doesn't really fix anything. It just changes the names of things. Alignments still exist, but now instead of lawful evil it's "gamma beta", which honestly sounds a bit silly and isn't really that intuitive. The properties of alpha, beta, gamma and delta are still the same (and if they aren't, what do they represent?) as good, evil, lawful and chaotic, but now they just sound fancier.I agree it is not very intuitive. It was just an attempt to keep the normal game balance and do away with the question about what is good/evil, lawful/chaotic, because completely doing away with the concept of alignment would be a lot more work.

[Actana]

I agree it is not very intuitive. It was just an attempt to keep the normal game balance and do away with the question about what is good/evil, lawful/chaotic, because completely doing away with the concept of alignment would be a lot more work.

I'm not too sure it would. It just makes the subtypes more poignant when they do appear. Granted, the only 3.5 I play these days is E6, into which removing alignments might fit better than a standard variant, and has less material to modify. Overall, however, I don't think the work is too large a burden. Change the things you know will come up for starters and then issue a rough guideline on how to handle any unexpected issues that come up, and then just roll with it. Be sure to inform the players of how things are handled, so they don't feel cheated when their plan doesn't work because of the alignment changes.


As for the OP's second question, I have to echo Drachasor in this. Fixing spellcasting is a massive undertaking and you're gonna have to think long and hard about how to do it.