Demi Liches

[Melcar]

Hello... A couple of questions about the Demi Liches

1) Can they remove their magic immunity, to cast beneficial spells on themselves? And likewise receive healing (inflict) spells from other subordinates?

2) If a level 25 wizard were to cast Shapechange and transform into a demi lich, would he/she receive or retain the "Trap the Soul" [SU] ability? And what would the save DC be?

3) Also during a said Shapechange, would the caster receive the +10 int, wis, cha that a normal lich gets when becoming a demi lich?

Thanks!

[Hamste]

1) I believe by general consensus it was agreed that a monster can indeed lower it's immunity to something if it so wishes though this might be from a specific example.

2) Trap the soul is a special attack gained from the body, so yes you would get it.

3) You do not gain the intelligence of the Demilich or the bonus it might give as those are not under the things covered by the spell Shapechange

[Karnith]

2) If a level 25 wizard were to cast Shapechange and transform into a demi lich, would he/she receive or retain the "Trap the Soul" [SU] ability? And what would the save DC be?

3) Also during a said Shapechange, would the caster receive the +10 int, wis, cha that a normal lich gets when becoming a demi lich?
You cannot Shapechange into a Demilich. Shapechange functions as Polymorph except where specified otherwise, and Polymorph likewise functions as Alter Self except where specified otherwise. And Alter Self has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.Nothing in Polymorph or Shapechange overrides this line, and hence Demilich is not a valid form to Shapechange into.

[Melcar]

You cannot Shapechange into a Demilich. Shapechange functions as Polymorph except where specified otherwise, and Polymorph likewise functions as Alter Self except where specified otherwise. And Alter Self has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):
Nothing in Polymorph or Shapechange overrides this line, and hence Demilich is not a valid form to Shapechange into.

It does say that but it also says:
"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature..."

I thought that meant any creature. As I thought that this line was the exemption from polymorph and alter self

[CRtwenty]

It means any creature, creatures are not templates.

[Immabozo]

It does say that but it also says:

I thought that meant any creature. As I thought that this line was the exemption from polymorph and alter self

No, that just means you cant turn into the Terrasque, or John Jim, the local Gatehouse guard, or some such. The inability to turn into a templated form still stacds. Otherwise, every form any wizard who uses shapechange to turn into, would have all 23 variations of half dragon, all the countless variations of lycanthropy, half troll, half minotaur, half fey, windigo, plant, paragon (both versions), pseudonatural, vampire, vampire lord, lich, demi lich, mineral warrior, feral, multiheaded, tauric, symbiotic, etc.

EDIT: It would be close enough for government work to a one spell infinite combo

[Melcar]

It means any creature, creatures are not templates.

So you cant use a level 9 spell to become a skeleton either??

[DementedFellow]

Let's say I'm playing a lich character, how much LA would I get if I wanted to get the Demilich template?

[Immabozo]

So you cant use a level 9 spell to become a skeleton either??

A skeleton is a creature, not a template

[Melcar]

A skeleton is a creature, not a template

It says in monster manual that it is i template...

[Melcar]

Let's say I'm playing a lich character, how much LA would I get if I wanted to get the Demilich template?

Im not sure but the challge rating is +6 compared to a lich

[DementedFellow]

Im not sure but the challge rating is +6 compared to a lich
That's why I'm curious. It's possible to become a lich before level 20 and I just wonder if a Demilich could possibly show up in play before epic levels.

[Immabozo]

It says in monster manual that it is i template...

Well look at that, so it is. Then you are correct


So you cant use a level 9 spell to become a skeleton either??

To quote someone's signature "RAW and common sense aren't exactly on speaking terms"

[CRtwenty]

So you cant use a level 9 spell to become a skeleton either??

Well you could always Wish to become one, though it's be kinda silly. :smallwink:

But no, by RAW you cannot use Shapechange to turn into a Skeleton, since Skeleton is a Template.

[Melcar]

Alter Self is a level 1 spell, Polymorph a level 4 and Shapechange a level 9. I know that Shapechange says "functions like polymorph" and Polymorph says "like alter self" But both spells are advancements on alter self. With shapechange you can change type but not template???. Where does it say that in shapechange that this is not something that is also changed? How do we know that the template rule still apply to a level 9 spell when shape, size, type and all the supernatural abilities, gaseous form all become available at shapechange? Personally I have to think that this is something that does change. I have a hard time believing that shapechange and alter self have that single rule in common when everything else is changed. And I also have a hard time believing that RAI does prohibit the shape changing into a simple human skeleton with CR 1/3 (MM p. 225)

[ShurikVch]

Let's say I'm playing a lich character, how much LA would I get if I wanted to get the Demilich template?
+8 extra, +12 total

EDIT:
Nothing in Polymorph or Shapechange overrides this line, and hence Demilich is not a valid form to Shapechange into. PAO?

[Feytalist]

The question is, why would you want to change into a skeleton with a 9th level spell?

It seems silly, but nothing in the wording of the spell seems to override the no-template restriction. So, for instance, you could shapechange into a dragon, but not a half-dragon. Take your good fortune and run with it :smallbiggrin:

Course, rule 0 overrides everything anyway, so the standard answer would be "ask your DM". And if you are the DM, do what thou whilt and not what we tell you to.

[bot]

Alter Self is a level 1 spell, Polymorph a level 4 and Shapechange a level 9. I know that Shapechange says "functions like polymorph" and Polymorph says "like alter self" But both spells are advancements on alter self. With shapechange you can change type but not template???. Where does it say that in shapechange that this is not something that is also changed? How do we know that the template rule still apply to a level 9 spell when shape, size, type and all the supernatural abilities, gaseous form all become available at shapechange? Personally I have to think that this is something that does change. I have a hard time believing that shapechange and alter self have that single rule in common when everything else is changed. And I also have a hard time believing that RAI does prohibit the shape changing into a simple human skeleton with CR 1/3 (MM p. 225)

Simple, because shapechange is similar to alter self except what's listed in polymorph and shapechange. Since templates isn't listed as being exempt then you can't do it.

[Max Caysey]

Demi Liches are some of my favorite monsters...

I do think, that RAI, you CAN shapachange into a templeted monster. Alter Self is level 1, ofc you cant change into a templated thing. Level 9... ofc you can. I would rule that you could. Or as a wizard create my own spell that made it possible.

When talking RAW, I would say that; just dont read polymorph or alter self before casting it. Because the writing of SHapechange says nothing about templates. Use that to your advantage!!! Bo selecter ;)

[Karnith]

EDIT: PAO?
If you're asking whether or not PAO would let you take a templated form, then no, because nothing in PAO overrides the "no templates" line of Alter Self. You'd need an Alter Self variant that specifically says something to the effect of "You may take the form of a creature with a template" in order to do so.

When talking RAW, I would say that; just dont read polymorph or alter self before casting it.
You can't. Shapechange specifically says "This spell functions like Polymorph, except..." Polymorph similarly says "This spell functions like Alter Self, except..." If you don't reference the previous spells in the line to determine how Shapechange functions, then you're ignoring the RAW. Also, you'd be missing some key rules on how Shapechange and Polymorph actually work.

[bot]

Demi Liches are some of my favorite monsters...

I do think, that RAI, you CAN shapachange into a templeted monster. Alter Self is level 1, ofc you cant change into a templated thing. Level 9... ofc you can. I would rule that you could. Or as a wizard create my own spell that made it possible.

I disagree, I think it's very much on purpose that templates are not listed - so both RAW and RAI is on the level here - otherwise you'll just end up as Immabozo earlier in this thread pointed out.

Sure rule 0 can always top any rule in the game, but both RAI and RAW is against it on this one.

[Max Caysey]

I see your points... Personally I would rule otherwise! But I see the RAW in it.

[Melcar]

I personally thought you could transmute into a demi lich with shapechange. I kind of like the idea of creating a transmutation spell that allowed it. Either a new level 9 or perhaps an epic.

Any thoughts on that guys?

[Immabozo]

I personally thought you could transmute into a demi lich with shapechange. I kind of like the idea of creating a transmutation spell that allowed it. Either a new level 9 or perhaps an epic.

Any thoughts on that guys?

Well, of course your DM might allow a non-abusive application, but thats up to your DM, RAW doesn't allow it, because you cant strictly define where the line of common sense begins and ends and where abuse starts.

EDIT: while "only two templates" might not be abused by one player, taking half dragon and skeleton, or something, another player will horribly abuse it, taking lich and vampire, or paragon and pseudonatural, or, or, or. Allowing a certain combined total of LA meets the same problem, some players wont abuse it, while others, like a mad scientist, will find a way to make it explosive.

EDIT #2: this is in regards to "Shapechange" epic spell-crafting or homebrew is a whole new ballpark

[SaintRidley]

Your DM might just say no on the grounds that the template + wildly differing builds (requiring class levels) on the way to becoming a Demilich means that there is no such thing as a Demilich that is nonunique.

An orc is an orc is an orc - they differentiate by class levels, but there's a baseline orc that stands on its own.

A Gold Dragon is a Gold Dragon is a Gold Dragon - they can take class levels, and different spells, and different feats, but there's still a baseline Gold Dragon that stands on its own.

A Skeleton is a Skeleton is a Skeleton - they lose anything that involved class levels. They only have racial HD and any human skeleton is the same as another, any Ogre skeleton is the same as another.

A (Demi)Lich, however, is different. Aside from creatures with natural spellcasting exceeding level 11 (20 for Demiliches), they're all built by class levels. Ten human (Demi)liches are going to be ten wildly different creatures - the human part is nonunique, but the ways they do their spellcasting alone makes the unique argument. There really isn't any 'typical' example of a creature when all examples arrived at being that creature in different ways and have different abilities because of it. The level of commonality between two (Demi)liches of the same original base creature type can only assumed to extend as far as race - human to human - and not include all the things that then make a (Demi)lich.

At least, that's where I stand on Liches/Vampires/Death Knights and Shapechange.

[137beth]

Well, of course your DM might allow a non-abusive application, but thats up to your DM, RAW doesn't allow it, because you cant strictly define where the line of common sense begins and ends and where abuse starts.

EDIT: while "only two templates" might not be abused by one player, taking half dragon and skeleton, or something, another player will horribly abuse it, taking lich and vampire, or paragon and pseudonatural, or, or, or. Allowing a certain combined total of LA meets the same problem, some players wont abuse it, while others, like a mad scientist, will find a way to make it explosive.

Uh, he specifically said as a new spell (either a new level 9th spell, or an epic spell). And I can't find anything in RAW which says "no mortal magic can exist which allows you to transform into a demilich." It probably shouldn't be only 9th level, since soul-gems can normally only be made by 21st level or higher casters, but an epic spell could do it.

[Immabozo]

Uh, he specifically said as a new spell (either a new level 9th spell, or an epic spell). And I can't find anything in RAW which says "no mortal magic can exist which allows you to transform into a demilich." It probably shouldn't be only 9th level, since soul-gems can normally only be made by 21st level or higher casters, but an epic spell could do it.

Epic spells can literally do anything. If you want an epic spell to do it, go for it. That game mechaic is utterly broken, with a side of super stinky cheese. For the spell "Shapechange" as is stands, my arguement is valid. For an entirely new spell, epic spells, or homebrew, you are only limited by your imagination.