Knocking out a sleeping character (Pathfinder/3.0)

[Farastu]

So, I'm in a situation where this will likely come up. However I can't find any rules on it. Someone wants to knock out a character while they are asleep. They don't want to just outright kill the character, because they have other plans for them. The catch is that poisons in this case are not an option. Spells are I suppose, but I'd like a rule that doesn't involve them if possible.

The sleeping individual has a high enough amount of HP that one hit won't knock them out, unless there's some sort of non-lethal equivalent version of Coup De Grace (can't find one though). But since Coup De Grace are possible on sleeping characters, I don't see why just knocking them unconscious wouldn't be.
Anyone know what the rules for this is? Where I can find them?

[grarrrg]

So, I'm in a situation where this will likely come up. However I can't find any rules on it. Someone wants to knock out a character while they are asleep. They don't want to just outright kill the character, because they have other plans for them. The catch is that poisons in this case are not an option. Spells are I suppose, but I'd like a rule that doesn't involve them if possible.

The sleeping individual has a high enough amount of HP that one hit won't knock them out, unless there's some sort of non-lethal equivalent version of Coup De Grace (can't find one though). But since Coup De Grace are possible on sleeping characters, I don't see why just knocking them unconscious wouldn't be.
Anyone know what the rules for this is? Where I can find them?

There is a Nonleathal Coup De Grace.
It's called a Nonlethal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage) Coup De Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#coup-de-grace).

Any Lethal weapon can be used to deal Nonlethal damage, with a -4 penalty to-hit.
There is nothing in the Coup De Grace description to say that you can't make it Nonlethal.

Do note, however, that the target would technically have to make a Fort Save or die.
"If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die"
Although in the case of Nonlethal damage, I'd give the Fort save thing a pass.

Also, you can do Nonlethal Sneak Attack damage, provided your weapon is nonlethal by default (unarmed strike is nonlethal).

[TuggyNE]

There is a Nonleathal Coup De Grace.
It's called a Nonlethal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage) Coup De Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#coup-de-grace).

Any Lethal weapon can be used to deal Nonlethal damage, with a -4 penalty to-hit.
There is nothing in the Coup De Grace description to say that you can't make it Nonlethal.

Since there is no attack roll to take a -4 penalty on, I'm not sure it works, and since Regeneration specifically notes that you can't make a coup de grace with a weapon that automatically converts to non-lethal damage, intent seems pretty much against it.

Non-lethal sneak attack is the best way to do it, or fiddle with some houserules. (Shameless plug.)

[SiuiS]

Since there is no attack roll to take a -4 penalty on, I'm not sure it works, and since Regeneration specifically notes that you can't make a coup de grace with a weapon that automatically converts to non-lethal damage, intent seems pretty much against it.

Non-lethal sneak attack is the best way to do it, or fiddle with some houserules. (Shameless plug.)

You can still do it. You qualify (you suffer a -4 penalty to attacks) you just obviate the roll. It works the same as using power attack to boost damage in a grapple.

They're sleeping? They can't hold their breath while sleeping. Suffocate them. Pillow over the face until they hit 0 HP; then plum the snot out of them for no lethal damage. So long as their no lethal (any amount) exceeds their HP (current 0) they are unconscious and cannot wake up.

[Krazzman]

You can still do it. You qualify (you suffer a -4 penalty to attacks) you just obviate the roll. It works the same as using power attack to boost damage in a grapple.

They're sleeping? They can't hold their breath while sleeping. Suffocate them. Pillow over the face until they hit 0 HP; then plum the snot out of them for no lethal damage. So long as their no lethal (any amount) exceeds their HP (current 0) they are unconscious and cannot wake up.

THis doesn't work in pathfinder.

Any Nonlethal Damage over the 0 would result in lethal damage.

[Psyren]

Just use a weapon that is always nonlethal, like a sap or unarmed strike. That way, there is no need to take a -4 penalty on a roll that doesn't actually happen.

[SiuiS]

THis doesn't work in pathfinder.

Any Nonlethal Damage over the 0 would result in lethal damage.

How is no lethal damage computed? Because its not actually damage whatsoever, it's a number of "knockout points". If you have 25 max HP, 24 damage, and 24 non lethal damage, you are unconscious, but wouldn't have taken any extra lethal because your no lethal total (24) does not exceed your hit points (25) but you are unconscious because try exceed your current hit points (1).

Subdual damage used to wrap around into lethal. No idea why they changed it.

[grarrrg]

How is no lethal damage computed? Because its not actually damage whatsoever, it's a number of "knockout points". If you have 25 max HP, 24 damage, and 24 non lethal damage, you are unconscious, but wouldn't have taken any extra lethal because your no lethal total (24) does not exceed your hit points (25) but you are unconscious because try exceed your current hit points (1).

Subdual damage used to wrap around into lethal. No idea why they changed it.

Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage)
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage."

[SiuiS]

Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage)
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage."

Then what I said does work. A guy with 100 max HP, 0 current HP and and 99 non lethal damage is staggered (from zero HP) and unconscious (from non lethal damage) but not taking lethal damage from the nonlethal.

That... May be how it is in 3.5, I can't remember the last time I hit something that didn't have regeneration >___>"

[TuggyNE]

That... May be how it is in 3.5, I can't remember the last time I hit something that didn't have regeneration >___>"

No, 3.5 only ever converts non-lethal to lethal in the case of certain environmental effects, such as severe heat. You can non-lethally sneak attack someone all day long and they'll never die from it (unless you accidentally do more than 50 damage in one blow and they fail the save, oops!).