Erudite Concerto: Help decide this argument please!

[Getsugaru]

In a game I'm currently playing, an argument has arisen over Erudites and Metaconcert. Here's a repost of the argument.

Luckily I can live with it thanks to the completely rule-legal Erudite Concerto. I prefer to perform it in I-Rock Major. :smallbiggrin:


I see. What are you metaconcerting with?


My Psicrystal, who can thanks to the feat Hidden Talent, which gives it a power point total and a Power known (I chose Astral Construct, for many obvious reasons). :smallamused:



Um... Unless you concert after hitting your limit, I do nothing the language supports it.


:confused:
Okay, now I'm even more confused. I'm just going to post the link to where I learned about it. It's at the bottom of the first post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889).


The question would even if the entity counts as you for the purpose of manifestation. If that is true, you do not gain a benefit. If it is not, psionics is screwing up the rules again, and the writers to learn a clearer writing style.


I'm sorry to say, but I'm even more confused. I take it you're asking if the Concert's manifesting counts towards my own casting? If that's the case, then the answer is this: the entity created by Metaconcert knows every power known by the participants, but manifests them itself separate (none of the participants, not even the conductor, are manifesting the powers themselves). As the entity itself is not an Erudite of any shape or form, it does not have a unique powers (per level) per day limit. Therefore, it gets around the limitation because I'm not manifesting the powers, the entity is.


Except that it could be interpreted that you are manifesting through the entity. Otherwise it damages the basis of personal spells and the ways the costs are presented in the power's description.

Further more, the psicrystal is a portion of the psionic. So you would be in a concerted effort... By yourself.
Would the experienced and knowledgeable players of this forum please help put an end to this argument and determine whether or not it works?

[Flickerdart]

There is no RAW consensus (or really RAI indication) on who is manifesting powers in a Metaconcert. Interpretation thus falls to the DM.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So it seems to me that there are two points of contention - the first, whether or not a Metaconcert featuring an Erudite is bound by the Erudite's Unique Powers (Per Level) Per Day mechanic, and the second whether or not a Manifester and their Psycrystal are sufficient to form a Metaconcert.

To answer the first question, no, a Metaconcert featuring an Erudite (as a Conductor or otherwise) is not subject to the Erudite's Unique Powers (Per Level) Per Day mechanic. The Metaconcert is the one manifesting, not the Erudite, and since the Metaconcert is not an Erudite, it does not inherit the UP(/L)/D mechanic. Furthermore, the Erudite is not manifesting 'through' the entity - the Conductor is not manifesting, only directing what the Metaconcert manifests (kinda like how the Conductor here (http://youtu.be/rBq4ov5Y_84) (Zubin Mehta, by the way) is leading the Orchestra, but Itzahk Perlman is playing the Violin solo).

As far as the second question goes, the Psycrystal may be a 'fragment of the Manifester's identity' or whatever, but it is mechanically a separate entity and if it meets the requirements of Metaconcert (namely, if it is a willing psionic creature in range), then it is a valid partner in the Metaconcert.


There is no RAW consensus (or really RAI indication) on who is manifesting powers in a Metaconcert. Interpretation thus falls to the DM.

Pardon me, but I think it is quite clear who is manifesting powers in a Metaconcert. To wit:



This entity can’t take any more actions than a normal individual, but it manifests all its powers...

If the entity manifests a power...

etc. etc.

The entity itself manifests powers under the direction of the conductor.

Edit: That's not to say there aren't a bunch of questions regarding other aspects of the power, but that the entity knows every power the participants have in their collective repertoire and that it manifests powers seems quite clear.

[avr]

If the created entity is not treated as an erudite (or treated as some other manifesting class), it doesn't have a manifester level etc; in such a case it can't manifest powers. Since it can manifest powers and was created by an erudite, treat it as an erudite. Not that the powers/day would necessarily need to be the same.

On whether the psicrystal is a separate being,

A psicrystal is a fragment of a psionic character’s personality, brought into physical form and a semblance of life (via the Psicrystal Affinity feat). A psicrystal appears as a crystalline construct about the size of a human hand.

Because it is an extension of its creator’s personality, a character’s psicrystal is in some ways a part of him. That’s why, for example, a psionic character can manifest a personal range power on his psicrystal even though normally he can manifest such a power only on himself.
... dunno, but personally I'd lean towards no. YMMV, or more importantly your DM's mileage may vary.

In case it isn't clear, there doesn't seem to be an absolute answer, all of the above besides the quote is my interpretation.

[shaikujin]

My thoughts:

The newly formed entity seems to be akin to a summoned creature that has its' own actions and can be commanded by the conductor to manifest any power that is known to any participant, using its' own pp pool.

Should bypass the erudite's unique powers per day.



However, there are 2 a few points that I can't figure out.

1) What ML does this entity have? What's the highest power it can manifest and how much PP can it spend on a single power (including augmentation)?


2) How much PP does this entity have?
"a number of power points you designate flows from each participant into a collective pool"
A psycrystal with hidden talent has 2 pp. Does that mean the max you can designate is 2 pp, and that will be the amount of pp each participant contributes to the entity?
It doesn't say you can designate a different amount of pp from each participant.
So it starts with 4 pp (2 from conductor, 2 from psycrstal).
Does the erudite then need to use bestow power to give it more pp?

That would mean 1 round to manifest the concert, plus more to use bestow power on it. Might be difficult to do ad-hoc when combat starts (timestop maybe?)


3) Can the entity immediate start using its' actions to manifest power on the round it is summoned? Or does it need to wait for the next round?


4) What happens if the erudite tells the psycrystal to move out of the 20 ft area? It gets kicked out and gain half of the the entity's pp pool. But now, the only participant left is the erudite. Does the entity still remain? (I think so, since you only need participants when forming it, but I'd like to know if I am reading it wrong).


5) The group can only move at 10 ft. Which makes it hard to keep running while not in combat.


I think it's probably good for out of combat buffing so that the Erudite doesn't have to spend UPPD on these powers, but using in combat might be difficult.

[Spuddles]

It seems clearer than psychic crystals that a metaconcert with your psicrystal is a) totally legal and b) doesn't have anything to do with your unique powers per day. The entity manifests the powers, not the psicrystal, not the erudite, and not any of his friends. You may as well try making an argument that the entity is only using the power points from the conductor because you could argue that.

I could also argue that you ignore three of four days in one earth rotation, and that earth has 4 corner simultaneous 4 day TIMECUBE, but then I'd be wrong.

So the short of it is, Snowbluff can argue whatever he likes to make up whatever he wants as DM, but he's RAWong.

[Flickerdart]

Bestow Power only works on another creature, so you'd need to have the separate members of the Metaconcert act independent of the entity.

[shaikujin]

I believe the participants still gets their own actions.

And the entity gains its' own set of actions.

[Flickerdart]

Also it's not technically a creature, so the power probably doesn't work at all.

[Spuddles]

Also it's not technically a creature, so the power probably doesn't work at all.

I don't think you could target it with anything other than a dispel effect cause a spooky entity isn't really, well, anything, in the rest of the game's terms.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I don't think you could target it with anything other than a dispel effect cause a spooky entity isn't really, well, anything, in the rest of the game's terms.

It can make saving throws - using what (or whose) stat(s) and save progression(s), nobody knows, but it does get a +1 bonus per participant.


Also it's not technically a creature, so the power probably doesn't work at all.

It's not a creature, it's a, um, wibbly-wobbly, psymey-wimey, um, thing.

[shaikujin]

It doesn't have any ability scores (but seemingly can take ability damage).
With no Wis/Cha, it cannot be considered a creature.
Without dex, it normally won't be able to take actions, though the text for this power over-rides that and specifically says it can...

So no way to give it more PP via bestow power.


Can the conductor designate the PP to be provided as 100, even though one of the participant (the psycrstal only has 2 pp) don't have that much to provide?


There's still the question of what ML the entity manifests as.


Hmmm...

DM adjudication definitely required on multiple levels.

[Psyren]

The entity is specifically a separate being from the conductor (i.e. the Erudite.) Otherwise, the line about the entity being under the conductor's command wouldn't be there. Therefore, whatever the entity is, it's not you and doesn't have your UPD limit. Even if you rule that it too is an Erudite, it would have it's own UPD to worry about; furthermore, since you create a new entity every time you Metaconcert, even if it were an Erudite it would gain a new set of UPD each time.

Having said that, the power really is too poorly written and impractical to be a regular means of accessing your powers. I would just wait 2 levels and get Soul Crystal instead.

[Getsugaru]

So the short of it is, Snowbluff can argue whatever he likes to make up whatever he wants as DM, but he's RAWong.

NOTE: Snowbluff isn't our DM; PairO'Dice Lost is.