Wizards and Leather

[TheDarkSaint]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Sure, he doesn't have a proficiency, but with an armor check rating of 0, it wouldn't hurt him to put in on untrained. Sure, there is a 10% spell casting failure, but that's tiny.

Am I missing something?

[CheshireCatAW]

Essentially, the 10% spellcasting failure rate is a poor trade for the armor benefits.

The benefits only weaken with time, and the 10% failure rate starts counting for more when you lose 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc level spells.

[Flickerdart]

Because Mithral Githcraft Chain Shirts are better. 0 ASF, 0 ACP, good times all around.

[CRtwenty]

10% spell casting failure

There it is. A 1/10 chance to have the spell you cast to save your ass fail is not worth a measly bonus to AC, especially when you can get a higher bonus by casting a simple level 1 spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Sure, he doesn't have a proficiency, but with an armor check rating of 0, it wouldn't hurt him to put in on untrained. Sure, there is a 10% spell casting failure, but that's tiny.

Am I missing something?

It's generally seen by the forumites here that -any- chance for a spell to fail that's not built into the spell itself is something to be avoided.

10% may -seem- tiny, but that's once in 10 spells, give or take (the nature of RNG being what it is) and you'll be casting no less than 13 each level in life-and-death situations. Do you really want to take that extra chance?

Once you can afford a means of negating that 10%, armor starts to look okay as a chassis for armor enhancements.

[Spuddles]

If you cast 10 spells in a day, you lose one because you're wearing pleb clothing.

If instead you use one spell slot on the armor of arcane master race- mage armor- you now have 2x as much armor and have lost just as many spell slots.

Wizards don't wear leather armor because it is what peasants wear.

[Big Fau]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Sure, he doesn't have a proficiency, but with an armor check rating of 0, it wouldn't hurt him to put in on untrained. Sure, there is a 10% spell casting failure, but that's tiny.

Am I missing something?

Because you can get the same benefit from a 1st level spell slot (Mage Armor), sans spell failure and it comes with a higher bonus. Or get 4 times the AC from 2 1st level spell slots (Mage Armor+Shield). Or a 2nd level spell slot (Alter Self). Or all of the above.

3rd level Wizards are better tanks than 6th level Fighters.

[Kane0]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Am I missing something?



Wizards don't wear leather armor because it is what peasants wear.


That and that kind of peasant garment is too kinky for your average, book-loving wizard.

And don't even suggest latex.

[ericgrau]

There might be a minor benefit at levels 1-2 for a front-line wizard, but that's pretty narrow. Normally you have a meat shield and so want more offense than defense. At that level you wouldn't prepare mage armor in preference to offensive spells. It might also be ok for travelling to stop those pesky ambushes that always go for the clothie in the back. That works for levels 1-4 when you still can't get your 24 hour mage armor up. But a lot of DMs are nicer than that.

It isn't an even trade-off like you'd think either. At low levels where foes need to roll an 8 to even hit a mage, the armor removes almost 20% of hits not 10%. So if ambushes are common it could be worth it.

The wizard can't normally out-AC a fighter at any level though, not without foregoing his offensive spells. And sometimes blowing combat rounds on it. Both of which are terribly silly. And so cheap unending passive benefits are something to consider in general. It's just that mage armor lasts hours per level. So while other AC may often be impractical to get via spells, for armor AC mage armor is usually the way to go.

Now a mithril buckler OTOH... no ACP, no ASF, and the shield spell only lasts minutes. If you don't need your off-hand for another magical item then go for it.

[Spuddles]

There might be a minor benefit at levels 1-2 for a front-line wizard, but that's pretty narrow. Normally you have a meat shield and so want more offense than defense. At that level you wouldn't prepare mage armor in preference to offensive spells. It might also be ok for travelling to stop those pesky ambushes that always go for the clothie in the back. That works for levels 1-4 when you still can't get your 24 hour mage armor up. But a lot of DMs are nicer than that.

It isn't an even trade-off like you'd think either. At low levels where foes need to roll an 8 to even hit a mage, the armor removes almost 20% of hits not 10%. So if ambushes are common it could be worth it.

The wizard can't normally out-AC a fighter at any level though, not without foregoing his offensive spells. And sometimes blowing combat rounds on it. Both of which are terribly silly. And so cheap unending passive benefits are something to consider in general. It's just that mage armor lasts hours per level. So while other AC may often be impractical to get via spells, for armor AC mage armor is usually the way to go.

Now a mithril buckler OTOH... no ACP, no ASF, and the shield spell only lasts minutes. If you don't need your off-hand for another magical item then go for it.

Or carry a tower shield. Total cover >> +2 armor, and it's easier to don/remove.

[ericgrau]

50% ASF though. You can unstrap as a move action, drop it and 5 foot round 1 to cast. But you might want that move action to move away and then cast. And bucklers help for the entire fight without impeding you. Unless you need a 2nd free hand for something besides casting anyway.

Total cover also blocks line of effect on your spells. Blocking line of effect is basically the definition of total cover: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover . That also means that it is implied that the total cover is directional. You don't gain the ability to swerve it around and perfectly block all projectiles; that's what the +4 AC mode represents. You are planting a portable wall into the ground.

[Spuddles]

That and that kind of peasant garment is too kinky for your average, book-loving wizard.

And don't even suggest latex.

Oh. OH. The thread title. Wow. Hahaha. :P

[Slipperychicken]

Because you can get the same benefit from a 1st level spell slot (Mage Armor), sans spell failure and it comes with a higher bonus. Or get 4 times the AC from 2 1st level spell slots (Mage Armor+Shield). Or a 2nd level spell slot (Alter Self). Or all of the above.

3rd level Wizards are better tanks than 6th level Fighters.

That's a bit of a stretch. I'd amend it by saying that, given preparation for the role, he can tank better for a short time each day.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, if your shtick is True Strike + Big Weapon, then armor is fine. Same if you are using wands.

[Ashtagon]

That and that kind of peasant garment is too kinky for your average, book-loving wizard.


Sorcerers (http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/602342/marshal_hennet.jpg) on the other hand...

[iDesu]

Could always go with this outfit.

Chain shirt: 4 armor bonus, 20%ASF and -2 armor class penalty

Chahar-aina: Found in oriental adventure, gives you -1 armor check penalty and 5%ASF, gives you +1 armor bonus, stacks with chain shirt

Dastana: Found in oriental adventure, gives you -1 armor check penalty and 5%ASF, gives you +1 armor bonus, stacks with chain shirt

What you're going to want is a gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) caster armor (400gp, Dragon 358) reinforced (800gp, Dragon 358) segmented (200gp, Dragon 358) mithril chain shirt (1100gp). This'll give you +5 armor, +7 dex bonus, 0% ASF and weigh 14.5lbs.

Cost: 3,100 gp

Throw in a masterwork (150gp) gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) dastana (25gp) and a masterwork (150gp) gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) chahar-aina (75gp) for a total of +7 armor, +7 dex 0% asf.

Cost: 1600gp

Total cost of 4,700 gp, but more importantly you now have three different pieces of armor to have enhancements on. It'll be much cheaper to get heavy fortification and soulfire on two different pieces of armor than on a single one.

[Sith_Happens]

Could always go with this outfit.

[Snip]

Only problem is that your 8-10 STR wizard is now wearing 30 pounds of armor.

[iDesu]

Only problem is that your 8-10 STR wizard is now wearing 30 pounds of armor.

Yeah, I guess you could mithril the other two or get rid of the chahar-aina to decrease the weight, or the wizard could just stop being a pansy. Ugh, I need to pay more attention to the weight of objects.

[Gigas Breaker]

I'm sure you'll find wizards in leather in the Gothic Castle. Er wait, was that the name?

[Splendor]

Blended Quartz Chain shirt has a 0% spell failure but costs 2100gp (arms & equipment pg 18)

Thistledown padded armor has a 0% spell failure and costs 405gp - good for simple enchanted armor for wizards (races of the wild)

Twisted Silk armor (dragon #348) has +3 armor and a 5% spell failure for 400gp.

Twilight enchantment reduces spell failure by 10% (MiC)

Mithral Chain Shirt +1 & Twilight would cost 5,100gp. (+5 armor, 0 ACP, 0 spell failure)

Blended Quarts Fullplate +1 & Twilight would cost 15,560gp (+9 armor, -5 ACP, 5% spell failure).

Buy a tower shield and attach some wheels and handles (think wheelbarrow/handcart you pull behind you). Combat starts you drop the wheeled tower shield and take cover behind it.

[Spuddles]

50% ASF though. You can unstrap as a move action, drop it and 5 foot round 1 to cast. But you might want that move action to move away and then cast. And bucklers help for the entire fight without impeding you. Unless you need a 2nd free hand for something besides casting anyway.

Total cover also blocks line of effect on your spells. Blocking line of effect is basically the definition of total cover: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover . That also means that it is implied that the total cover is directional. You don't gain the ability to swerve it around and perfectly block all projectiles; that's what the +4 AC mode represents. You are planting a portable wall into the ground.

If the DM is ambushing me on the road, full cover vs. death is invaluable. Let your allies handle the scrubs while you reposition- that's what they're there for.

[Big Fau]

That's a bit of a stretch. I'd amend it by saying that, given preparation for the role, he can tank better for a short time each day.

Alter Self is one of the spells that most optimized Wizards use as a buff, as it's the most efficient 2nd level buff in the game when it comes to AC or other numerical benefits. Mage Armor and Shield are just bog-standard AC buffs, and while they aren't the most effective, they have long durations and give a notable bonus when used in concert. Two of the three spells have a duration long enough to last for a dungeon scaled for an ECL 3 party (which should take between 10-20 minutes in-game if the party doesn't spend time identifying treasure and taking 20s on virtually every check). Shield's the only one that needs Extending, be it Sudden Extend or CL boosting (which is plausible for a 3rd level character, albeit it costs feats).

Although I'm certain there's a better alternative to Shield (other than not trying to be the party's tank) that would work as a long-duration buff.

[Perseus]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Sure, he doesn't have a proficiency, but with an armor check rating of 0, it wouldn't hurt him to put in on untrained. Sure, there is a 10% spell casting failure, but that's tiny.

Am I missing something?

Now if you changed the word wizard with Psion... You would be onto something.

My psions always wear leather armor and use force screen to get around 18 to 19 AC.

I don't go past leather cause ACP to ranged attacks suuuuck.

[Menzath]

A battle mage/argent savant/abjurant champion has grater mage armor that gives +8 AC (not even including the luminous armors) and a Shield spell that gives 11ac. no spell failure or weight.

[ericgrau]

If the DM is ambushing me on the road, full cover vs. death is invaluable. Let your allies handle the scrubs while you reposition- that's what they're there for.
Since it's basically a portable wall it's really only good against ranged attacks and even then it may not be at short range. So it doesn't help against most ambushes. I wish DMs would use more snipers and allow higher encounter distance, but it doesn't tend to happen and even if it did it still wouldn't happen all the time. And to keep from blocking line of effect on your spells you need to drop the tower shield, meaning as soon as you contribute to the fight your defense is gone. Unless the snipers are attacking from 2 different directions. A tower shield is better for melee trying to get close to a ranged foe.

For ambushes I prefer 24 hour passive defensive bonuses like mage armor, false life, a minor magic buckler, etc. Then 5 foot step behind an ally and nuke or disable foes. Or if you're in serious danger then cast a defensive buff or escape utility and contribute next round.

[tyckspoon]

Now if you changed the word wizard with Psion... You would be onto something.

My psions always wear leather armor and use force screen to get around 18 to 19 AC.

I don't go past leather cause ACP to ranged attacks suuuuck.

When you get a little free cash you can move up to Mithral Chain Shirt and a Darkwood (or mithral, but it's a more expensive material without much extra benefit) Heavy Shield, both maintaining 0 ACP without too much extra cost. Quite useful if you don't want to spend your actions/PP/Powers Known on Inertial Armor and Force Screen.

[ArqArturo]

Wizards in Armor?

You mean CoDzilla, right? Because honestly, why on Material Plane would a wizard belittle himself by wearing armor? That's the last bastion of rough-necked warmages, who are just one step above 3rd level fighters.

Really, the RACs (Real Arcane Casters) just want to hang in the back, sipping pina coladas, with the familiar playsthe ukulele and a Mage Hand constantly using a feathered fan, all the while unleashing hell on mooks/evil monsters/armies of well-trained 3rd-level fighters/BBEGs/undead hordes/outsider hordes/constructs/villages/small towns/large towns/nations/continents/planes.

[Eldariel]

I don't think one part has been properly emphasized: Failing one spell is a big deal. Like, really big. You lose:
- Effect
- Slot
- Action

You might not have a replacement copy of the spell available. Enemy might be in position to lock down only for one turn. You most certainly won't have too many actions; combat is brutal and one turn can be all it takes to destroy the whole enemy or get TPKd.

Additionally, low level Wizards can easily run out of spells to boot (4 1st level slots for the level 1 Gray Elf Wizard with 20 Int and Generalization, failing one of those is kind of a big deal).


It's like saying +1 or +2 bonus is tiny; it's not! Such things are only tiny in context. For example, Weapon Focus isn't a bad feat because it only gives you +1 to hit; it's a bad feat because it only gives you +1 to hit while other options grant much greater benefits (generally in form of new options).

Here, you're taking what amounts to a "-2 penalty to casting success" for negligible gain. As a Wizard, your primary tool to not get hit is to disable anyone who would try to hit you before they get the chance. Secondary is not being in a position where enemy has the ability to hit you. Tertiary is using magic to make yourself hard to hit. Mundane armor doesn't even come in Top 3 defenses for you; as much has been touched upon in this thread already.

So you get +2 AC that doesn't stack with your defensive spells, but you give up something that can't be mitigated (outside certain extreme builds) - your ability to cast spells reliably. There's enough fail chance in saving throws/touch attacks/spell resistance/potential countermeasures even on most of the good spells; you should never voluntarily take the risk of failing the spell entirely, no matter how small the number looks. Remember, always avoid die rolls if you have the choice!

[ericgrau]

@^ Of course and no high level caster should wear leather and throw away 10% of what he does. But for 10% less spells to go off and ~20% less damage taken, a level 1-3 wizard in an ambush heavy campaign might rightly think about it. Heck get studded leather if you don't use rays. More than that and gp for something you'll only use for 1-2 levels becomes a factor. Because next comes mage armor (w/o running out of spells/day or duration) and higher enemy attack bonuses.

And don't confuse a +/-1 with 5%. It's only 5% if the roll had 20/20 success rate, and rarely is it even close.

[Spuddles]

Since it's basically a portable wall it's really only good against ranged attacks and even then it may not be at short range. So it doesn't help against most ambushes. I wish DMs would use more snipers and allow higher encounter distance, but it doesn't tend to happen and even if it did it still wouldn't happen all the time. And to keep from blocking line of effect on your spells you need to drop the tower shield, meaning as soon as you contribute to the fight your defense is gone. Unless the snipers are attacking from 2 different directions. A tower shield is better for melee trying to get close to a ranged foe.

For ambushes I prefer 24 hour passive defensive bonuses like mage armor, false life, a minor magic buckler, etc. Then 5 foot step behind an ally and nuke or disable foes. Or if you're in serious danger then cast a defensive buff or escape utility and contribute next round.

Those are 3.0 rules. No facing rules in 3.5. A char with a tower shield has cover vs any and all opponents.

[ericgrau]

Those are 3.0 rules. No facing rules in 3.5. A char with a tower shield has cover vs any and all opponents.
It's still in the 3.5 definition of total cover.

Total cover is from an obstacle preventing a straight line between 2 creatures. A tower shield is not a sphere around you. The lack of a copy paste of the total cover rules or whatever other details is not a license to insert whatever you want.

Besides that try pulling "I am carrying a door therefore I am invincible" past any DM in the world. It's questionable TO at best, and even then it's really grammar fudging not RAW.

[Psyren]

Is there any real reason why a wizard would NOT want to wear leather armor?

Sure, he doesn't have a proficiency, but with an armor check rating of 0, it wouldn't hurt him to put in on untrained. Sure, there is a 10% spell casting failure, but that's tiny.

Am I missing something?

You're basically giving all your enemies - and even your allies, and yourself! - 10% miss chance for all of your spells. In exchange for +2 AC, that doesn't even stack with Mage Armor, and lowers your maximum Dex bonus to boot. Not worth it at all.

[Petrocorus]

A battle mage/argent savant/abjurant champion has grater mage armor that gives +8 AC (not even including the luminous armors) and a Shield spell that gives 11ac. no spell failure or weight.

The battle mage is the wizard wariant with bonus feat?

[Erik Vale]

Could always go with this outfit.

Chain shirt: 4 armor bonus, 20%ASF and -2 armor class penalty

Chahar-aina: Found in oriental adventure, gives you -1 armor check penalty and 5%ASF, gives you +1 armor bonus, stacks with chain shirt

Dastana: Found in oriental adventure, gives you -1 armor check penalty and 5%ASF, gives you +1 armor bonus, stacks with chain shirt

What you're going to want is a gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) caster armor (400gp, Dragon 358) reinforced (800gp, Dragon 358) segmented (200gp, Dragon 358) mithril chain shirt (1100gp). This'll give you +5 armor, +7 dex bonus, 0% ASF and weigh 14.5lbs.

Cost: 3,100 gp

Throw in a masterwork (150gp) gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) dastana (25gp) and a masterwork (150gp) gith crafted (600gp, DMG 2) chahar-aina (75gp) for a total of +7 armor, +7 dex 0% asf.

Cost: 1600gp

Total cost of 4,700 gp, but more importantly you now have three different pieces of armor to have enhancements on. It'll be much cheaper to get heavy fortification and soulfire on two different pieces of armor than on a single one.

Wow. I thought Armoured Kilt was cheesy, but it has it's herritage as being even worse in 3.5
However in PF you can have bracers of armour also giving you armour abilities. I've gotten in the habbit of having 1 pecie of armour [Armoured Kilt or Haramakari, Adamantium for the 1 Dr/-, minor but useful] with the other two providing enchantments. Combine with defending guantlet and a mithral buckler.