Quests to replace cruddy prerequsites?

[Fates]

As a DM, I find my players tend to shy away from PrCs with arbitrarily-placed, useless feat requirements- that is, over half of the PrCs out there. Recently, the player for the party sorcerer, who is absolutely perfect for the wild mage class and in desperate need for some prestige-ing, asked me if there was some way for him to take the class without taking Magical Aptitude- he's feat-starved as it is, and is all around an excellent character. I didn't like the idea of simply waiving the prerequisite, so instead I decided that, by accomplishing some grand task in-game, he could gain entry into the class without needing to take MA.

1. Do you think this is a wise move? I feel like Wild Mage really isn't a strong enough class that the waste of a feat is needed for balance reasons, but regardless, performing a quest, which is literally all most PCs ever do anyway, seems like it might not be a sufficient replacement, unless I didn't reward him with XP or treasure. The other issue is that, should I make this exception for him, I imagine my other players will expect the same for their characters whenever they want to take a PrC; I'm not sure I want to deal with that every time.

2. What kind of quests do you think would warrant granting a sorcerer access to this sort of class? A task for a powerful chaotic being? Discovering some source of chaotic power? Surviving a full week in Limbo without any provisions? Something else?

3. Is there some other good substitute to crappy feats that already exists, WotC or otherwise?

Also sorry if my linguistics are sub-par. We're in the midst of a heat wave here and I've barely gotten any sleep as a result, so my mental functions are all wonky.

[Toy Killer]

I'm under the impression that WoTC screwed up their own system in this regard. Ever since ACFs and later archetypes in pathfinder, I kinda felt an urge to reorganize 3.5.

The way I see it: Classes are the bare bones of what you want to play, Archtypes (I feel are superior to ACFs due to abuse of picking Tit for Tat) should show who you are in the general field of what you want to do, Feats are what makes you unique among your peers and Prestige classes should be traits you pick up with specific, narrow organizations.

So, Master Thrower, for example, feels out of place. Yes, it's a prestige class, yes, it gives you nifty things for throwing weapons. But It doesn't feel like it should be a prestige class to me. I guess their could be an organization of Master Throwers out there, but I don't expect a prestige class for stamp collectors either.

So, I think it would do better as an ACF for whomever. Feats get kinda tricky, but I think they should do more then simple + bonuses on specific things. There are just too few to go around to waste them on things like +3 hit points. Some feel right, like Dark Stalker. Some don't.

Ultimately, I guess what I'm getting at is; I think that prestige classes ought to have a role-playing requirement to enter... If they are an organization.

I can see a wizard sitting on his own, obsessing over the sound of his blood rushing through his head and becoming a Blood Magus. I just think that should ultimately be an ACF instead of a Prestige class, maybe a feat line. But Order of the Bow Initiate? You had best show me you character has the requirements to be initiated first. If he can complete a challenge that the entry feats would help with, even if he doesn't have them? Awesome. Congratulations on the Initiation. THEN, he can take levels in the prestige class.

But then again... Maybe I'm just Crazy...

[Matticussama]

I'm a huge fan of the Unearthed Arcana Test-based Prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm) for situations such as this. Require the character to seek out a teacher (some particularly powerful Wild Mage, presumably) and have to earn the right to learn from them. After completing the test - some solo quest would be best since it shows the character's skills and not their allies' skills - you could then allow them to begin leveling up under the guidance of the Wild Mage mentor. It has the added bonus of allowing you to introduce a new NPC that the characters may grow attached to, who can offer guidance or tasks for them to complete.

[Fates]

Snippidy-doo-da

I actually agree with you for the most part- the entire feat vs ACF vs PrC system is convoluted and poorly balanced in 3.5, and a revamp would be greatly appreciated. However, I feel the last thing my players would want would be for me to introduce a whole new set of house rules that majorly alter the game.



I'm a huge fan of the Unearthed Arcana Test-based Prerequisites for situations such as this. Require the character to seek out a teacher (some particularly powerful Wild Mage, presumably) and have to earn the right to learn from them. After completing the test - some solo quest would be best since it shows the character's skills and not their allies' skills - you could then allow them to begin leveling up under the guidance of the Wild Mage mentor. It has the added bonus of allowing you to introduce a new NPC that the characters may grow attached to, who can offer guidance or tasks for them to complete.


Hmm. An interesting variant, to say the least, though it assumes that the character is able to find and contact someone who has already taken the PrC, which could be difficult with something like Wild Mage; but, I do think the concept fits what I'm going for well enough, though more extremely than I had originally intended. I'll definitely consider this option, not only for this instance but for prestige classes in general- it does seem like such things should be much easier to learn with the help of a tutor, after all, than coming up with them yourself.

[Telok]

Magical Aptitude is far less useful than Silent Spell. Since you can get Silent Spell on a Matemagic rod starting at 3000 gp I'd be perfectly happy to stick a magic wand that gives Magical Aptitude into the next treasure.

[Kerilstrasz]

Well... can't he find another caster npc that for the right amount of gold and/or some favors train him the feat?

[Novawurmson]

Prestige classes should be traits you pick up with specific, narrow organizations.

Though I can see your point, as a DM, I've never liked prestige classes as organizations (not that I'm a big fan of prestige classes to begin with). Why? Because it's arbitrarily telling me what organizations I need to integrate into my world for my players. I mean, obviously, there's adaption, but it always felt irksome to randomly insert sacred orders of doodads for my player's builds.

[Namfuak]

Though I can see your point, as a DM, I've never liked prestige classes as organizations (not that I'm a big fan of prestige classes to begin with). Why? Because it's arbitrarily telling me what organizations I need to integrate into my world for my players. I mean, obviously, there's adaption, but it always felt irksome to randomly insert sacred orders of doodads for my player's builds.

I tend to agree with this. It really depends on the prestige class, but for something like Wild Mage, it seems like it ought to be something that the character discovers within themselves, not something that is taught (to be honest, it seems like it would make more sense as a sorcerer ACF rather than a prestige class, but I digress). One set of prestige classes that is silly about this are the ones from Complete Champion. Why should I have to be a part of the Greenwardens to spend a few levels learning how to "be" a fist of the forest? I'm just getting better at punching things and embracing my animal side to get tougher and more lithe.

There are some prestige classes where being taught or part of an order makes perfect sense, like Mage of the Arcane Order, but even then it should not be expected that a setting has to make a new order to accommodate the player. Adapt the class to a mage college or similar group that already exists in the setting, or if that is not possible give the player the agency and have them create the order they want to be a part of. Instead of the rising levels representing the player becoming more prestigious in the order (or better trained by the order for other prestige classes), have it represent the order growing and its members working together to become stronger.

[Fates]

Well... can't he find another caster npc that for the right amount of gold and/or some favors train him the feat?

He might be able to, but that seems awfully meta if not done right. I suppose I could flavour it as him not having a proficient enough understanding of arcana to be able to channel the power, and thus needing to see a tutor to get a better grasp of these things.

While I can see why an order of wild mages would probably be nonsensical (I mean, an "order?" Really?), but even so, it seems that if he were able to find a single other wild mage, he might learn from that one, or at least receive a degree of guidance. Besides which, the world in which the campaign takes place has migratory pockets of wild magic scattered about, and so wild mages might be more common there than in other realities.

Thanks for all the help so far, all.