Shadow magic questions: Aliens and Genies

[Xuldarinar]

I've long adored the Shadowcaster class, in spite of its flaws. But there are some questions I have relating to them, and shadow magic in general

1. Shadowcaster/Alienist: While capable of qualifying, would you permit summon alien to function with Summon Umbral Servant?

Summon Alien states that whenever an alienist would use any summon monster spell to summon a celestial or fiendish creature, they instead summon a pseudonatural version of that creature. Summon Umbral Servant states that it functions like summon monster I, but only summons shadow elementals. Would they be permitted to function together, not function, or only function if you can find a means to allow the summoning of celestial or fiendish shadow elementals? In the case of requiring that one become able to summon celestial/fiendish shadow elementals, how would one manage this?

2. Sha'ir: Sha'ir are capable of sending out their familiar to retrieve arcane spells and divine spells. Would one allow a sha'ir to send their gen familiar to retrieve mysteries? While mysteries are neither, they function similarly to arcane spells. I can see three schools of thought; "No, it doesn't say they can", "Yes, it couldn't hurt to allow it/they are close enough/well there are genies of shadow so why not?/ect.", "Yes, but the gen familiar should be a shadow familiar (meaning the character needs the shadow familiar feat)."

[Psyren]

I've long adored the Shadowcaster class, in spite of its flaws. But there are some questions I have relating to them, and shadow magic in general

1. Shadowcaster/Alienist: While capable of qualifying, would you permit summon alien to function with Summon Umbral Servant?

Summon Alien states that whenever an alienist would use any summon monster spell to summon a celestial or fiendish creature, they instead summon a pseudonatural version of that creature. Summon Umbral Servant states that it functions like summon monster I, but only summons shadow elementals. Would they be permitted to function together, not function, or only function if you can find a means to allow the summoning of celestial or fiendish shadow elementals? In the case of requiring that one become able to summon celestial/fiendish shadow elementals, how would one manage this?

2. Sha'ir: Sha'ir are capable of sending out their familiar to retrieve arcane spells and divine spells. Would one allow a sha'ir to send their gen familiar to retrieve mysteries? While mysteries are neither, they function similarly to arcane spells. I can see three schools of thought; "No, it doesn't say they can", "Yes, it couldn't hurt to allow it/they are close enough/well there are genies of shadow so why not?/ect.", "Yes, but the gen familiar should be a shadow familiar (meaning the character needs the shadow familiar feat)."

1) Unfortunately it's irrelevant - see (2).

2) No, a Shadowcaster/Alienist can't actually summon anything. This is the primary problem with the Alienist. Basically, you can only summon Celestial or Fiendish creatures; those creatures then lose the celestial/fiendish template and replace it with the pseudonatural one. All non-celestial and non-fiendish creatures simply fall off the list. And since shadow elementals are neither Celestial X nor Fiendish X, you can't summon them at all.

3) Do you mean a multiclass Sha'ir/Shadowcaster? They have totally different forms of "preparation" so I'm not certain how the gen would even interact with the Mystery class feature.

[Xuldarinar]

1) Unfortunately it's irrelevant - see (2).

2) No, a Shadowcaster/Alienist can't actually summon anything. This is the primary problem with the Alienist. Basically, you can only summon Celestial or Fiendish creatures; those creatures then lose the celestial/fiendish template and replace it with the pseudonatural one. All non-celestial and non-fiendish creatures simply fall off the list. And since shadow elementals are neither Celestial X nor Fiendish X, you can't summon them at all.

3) Do you mean a multiclass Sha'ir/Shadowcaster? They have totally different forms of "preparation" so I'm not certain how the gen would even interact with the Mystery class feature.

Well, is there any way to gain celestial/fiendish templates for summoning spells, thus solving the issue for a shadowcaster/alienist?

I mean could a sha'ir possibly retrieve mysteries, though as a potential requirement that they be a Sha'ir/Shadowcaster. Preparing and casting a mystery wouldn't necessarily be different than preparing and casting any other spell, its just that shadowcasters are the only official users of mysteries and are essentially spontaneous casters. I doubt they ever considered the possibility of having an interaction in the first place so that explains the lack of any reference to the other.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I would say No the question of sha'ir and mysteries.

It says quite explicitly that although mysteries have a lot in common with spells, they are not spells.

[Xuldarinar]

I would say No the question of sha'ir and mysteries.

It says quite explicitly that although mysteries have a lot in common with spells, they are not spells.

True but the thought still came to mind so thought I'd pose the question.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, sorry, but if you're going by RAW the answer to all of this is no. Shadowcasters can theoretically qualify for Alienist, but in all ways it's worse than just staying a shadowcaster.

As far as house rules are concerned - well, I suppose it wouldn't be crazy to have a sha'ir variant that can pick up mysteries. You'd have to change the way they work a little, though, to account for apprentice/initiate/master mysteries, paths, and all.

Even if you houseruled the Alienist class features to work with Summon Umbral Servant and Army of Shadow, though, it still wouldn't get you anything particularly interesting. The pseudonatural template doesn't actually do anything all that great for shadow elementals (I mean, sure, it doesn't hurt, but it's not a big help), and you don't really get enough uses of master mysteries to make it worth dedicating a mediocre-to-bad prestige class around them.