Chasing the Philosopher's Stone: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Alchemist [Archive]

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 12:43 PM

2. Introduction, Roles, and Mythic Options
"A lot of people got a lot of expectations when you start throwing around chemicals, think you're some kinda mad man. But don't let 'em get to you, the path you're on is one that leads to many places. And hopefully one of them will be a pile of gold." -Auric Navlis, professional thief, adventurer, and enemy of the state

Introduction
"Some walk the path of steel, dedicating their life to simple pieces of sharpened metal, others bowing their head to a god in worship, giving their fealty and agency to another. Some skulk in the shadows, hiding from that which would hunt them, but not you. You are one who transmutes the elements themselves with mystic schemas, concocting impossible libations of unspeakable power, twisting even your own form into that of one of pure brutal carnage. While some would call what you do abominable, the act of hubris which spits in the face of the gods themselves, you respond with a grin knowing them to be fools. You know the true source of power, your mind thrumming with formulas and equations that would rip their poor psyches into pieces. Let those who would fear you, as you wield the almighty power that is the science of change incarnate, Alchemy.

Alchemy is a very powerful and unique science, one of which can both create and destroy and skewed towards those whom have a creative mind which thirst for knowledge. Through twisted shrapnel and transmuted muscles, you strive to advance your knowledge at any cost. Your path is as wide as it is long, many options standing before you. But do not be intimidated, when all is said and done it will be you who stands victorious. Knowledge is your power, and it is not to be underestimated; it is the key to unlocking everything." -Albedo Gaignun, Former Pathfinder

A primer for the nuances of Extracts
In this review, I make sure to always make sure to separate extracts and spells in my terminology. There's a good reason for that, as the two work very differently. One of the biggest and most immediate differences is that extracts only affect the Alchemist themselves. While there is a discovery to change that (Infusion), this is a specific feature of the class, and the designers stated that this was intentional to make them a "selfish buffer."

Extracts are still inherently magical, and can be dispelled like any other magical effect. There are some odd issues with extracts, as they lose all magical ability when out of your grasp (unless they're an Infusion.) Something to note is that infusions stay active once used, so try and make sure that you don't get them stolen, or you could be out of a slot for good! This is also notable because it allows you to leave an infusion with a party member until they need it, so you don't have to continue to reprepare one.

One of the best things about extracts though is how quickly they can be prepared; it only takes 1 minute to prepare an extract, which means while you won't be swapping them out in combat, this does give you a high level of versatility. For this reason, you should avoid preparing all your extract at the beginning of the day. Make sure you only prepare the ones you know you'll be using (such as Enlarge Person for Hyde), since one of your biggest advantages is your formulae book.

Speaking of your formulae book, you have the same ease as a Wizard to add extracts to your list. While they have to be on your class list, this is a good way of buffing your own extract knowledge, and each one directly adds to your versatility.

And on another note, the rules are quite irritating about Communal extracts though. From the rules on Communal Extracts

A Note on Alchemists: Dispensing communal formulae to creatures requires that the alchemist have the infusion discovery. Without it, the alchemist cannot use communal spells as formulae.

So all Communal Extracts will be rated under the assumption you have the Infusion Discovery.

The only thing I could find relating to how to share them would be the Elixir of Shadewalking, which states the additional recipients must be touching you at the time of consumption. Most communal extracts aren't single round per level spells, so this shouldn't be an issue though.

Roles
The Alchemist in and of itself has a few basic roles it can fit very well, using its natural talents to excel at a variety of different task. There are of course three main roles of which can be filled, and this guide will focus primarily on those. While you can attempt to do other things with this class (and I encourage you to experiment with different combinations), the following are the ones that the class is most tailored to complete, and will thus be quite capable of performing to the best of their abilities.

The options given will be reviewed in the following fashion
Generalist Alchemist (MB/MH)

Generalist Alchemist:
Pros: The job of a generalist Alchemist is to be able to do everything the class has to offer; from laying down covering fire with your Bombs to being able to down a Mutagen and mix things up in melee as well as anyone else. Flexibility is the name of the game for this role, and because of it you should be ready to handle any situation that comes your way. Adding Extracts to your list of abilities only widens the scope of which you can handle, making you one of the most versatile characters in the game.

Cons: For everything it can do, it can't do anything perfectly. Specializing is almost always better in 3.P, and lacking that specialization you might feel a bit overshadowed in some parts.

Suggested Archetypes: Clone Master, Preservationist

Mad Bomber:
Pros: Alchemist are given many different ways to enhance their bombs, and this gives them a wide range of battlefield control. From Frost Bombs staggering to Grease Bombs setting up difficult terrain, your ability to hinder and debuff are hard to beat. You are also very capable of putting out large amounts of burst damage, especially after level 8 (Fast Bombs), ending encounters in a hail of shrapnel and chemicals that leave the battlefield tailored to your choosing.

Cons: Bombs are a finite resource, and once you're out, you've lost a lot of versatility. In the 15 min adventuring day, this isn't that awful. But in the early levels as well as later levels if you build around nova bombing, you can easily run out in only a few rounds. And the mutagen is a bit less useful for you, seeing as it only gives a buff to your touch attacks or HP/Fort Save.

Suggested Archetypes: Grenadier, Mind Chemist

Mr. Hyde:
The two sides of Hyde
Mr. Hyde has a bit of duality to their play style (Big shock, I know), and so rather than lumping them both in together, I think it's better to explore them separately. Any ratings are given for the better of the two, although the actual review will most likely mention whom it's meant to help. Note that playing a Hyde that doesn't incorporate either of these styles is still possible, it's simply that these two variants take a bit more consideration to build into, especially with archetypes.

Brutal Hyde
Pros: This version of Hyde is synonymous with the Vivisectionist archetype (although you can play this without it), trading out bombs for sneak attack. Throwing on Feral Mutagen, and you've got 3 attacks as early as 2nd level dishing out sneak damage. With mutagens and extracts, you'll be buffing that attack roll as well as getting yourself into situations where you can land sneak more easily (Invisibility, and Greater). This is very much so a strong replacement for the Rogue, as your natural attacks are all swinging at full BAB too. Picking up an Amulet of Mighty Fist (Agile) lets you take Strength out of the equation entirely as well. Forgoing Vivisectionist is possible (and for lower optimization games advised), as keeping bombs an option is very solid, as you can still play a very powerful character without sneak attack, instead using your bombs to set up opponents to be torn to shreds after you've debuffed them.

Cons :You can really only do one thing in combat, and that's engage in melee (and to a lesser degree, buff). While that's not really a terrible thing, losing out on the versatility that bombs offer can be a hard hit. Your ranged attack options drop to just a crossbow (racial weapons notwithstanding), and that's not a good place to be. And if you're going the Amulet of Might Fist (Agile) route, you'll have to wait until you can pick up an 8k magic item, which can be brutal if you're not starting at higher levels, meaning you'll still need some investment in strength until you get there. Deciding not to go Vivisectionist is fine as well, but it's a decision of the versatility of bombs vs. the damage of sneak attack, which is far easier for you to set up than a Rogue.

Suggested Archetypes: Vivisectionist, Beastmorph

Controlling Hyde
Pros: You have a character who has very easy access to Enlarge Person, as well as proficiency with a reach weapon (longspear) which gives you a 20 foot radius of death. With Mutagens as well as other buffs, you'll be outpacing equal level melee without fail, being able to lock down the field like none other. Even with just ten feet of range, you'll be deadly if you don't want to use a reach weapon (or are relying on a racial weapon proficiency), but picking up a martial or exotic reach weapon (possibly with Trip) will make sure you become a bulwark of defense.

Cons: This build while solid will probably lack the damage of Brutal Hyde. That's not exactly a problem, but you won't be at peak damage, your moderate BAB will slow your iterative progression, and you'll be investing more into yourself (instead of your party) with your buffs, making you more of a one man team.

Suggested Archetypes: Beastmorph, Psychonaut

Sub Roles:
While not primary focuses, these are more minor specializations that you can take a look at while playing your alchemist

Rogue Substitute
Pros: Aside from Trapfinding (which certain archetypes give), you can make a perfectly viable Rogue with a few traits. You basically have as many skill points as a Rogue, can pick up Sneak Attack if you want, and your Extracts and Mutagens make most of the traditional Rogue jobs (Scouting, Sneaking, Ect,) much easier for you. This is also probably the least intensive Sub Role you can have, making it easy to focus on a second without much effort. And for added fun, here's the Rogue's only niche it had left in a trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder).

Cons: This basically requires you to burn your traits on skill traits to tailor yourself to whatever type of Rogue you want to emulate. There's a good chance you'll need to take Additional Traits as well, and this will eat into some of the skill points you need to do your job as an Alchemist. Please don't do this role with a Rogue in your party, it will make them feel bad.

Suggested Archetype: Trap Breaker

Poisoner
Pros: You are the undisputed master of poison, and can use them better than anyone else. From your massive boost to Craft: Alchemy to create them as well as tons of discoveries to augment your poisoning abilities (Poison Conversion and Celestial Poison) and eventual immunity to your weapon of choice, you are THE authority on poisoning foes.

Cons: Just because you're the best doesn't make this good. Considering a lot of things are immune to poison, having a separate cost, as well as it targeting fort saves (most creature's good saves), you've chosen a difficult specialty to embark upon.

Recommended Archetype: None

Buffer
Pros: Probably the biggest advantage you have in buffing is the ability to buff without using your own actions. Being able to hand out your buffs (literally) allows you to use your own actions to others can give you a much better chance to get more off. You have a pretty decent list of buffs as well, so make sure to share them.

Cons: You have two major issues: Unable to multitarget buff and your one advantage, having your party buff itself. Some extracts lack value, being only single target instead of effecting the full number they normally would. And every buff you give your party is one you're not using for yourself, which makes you individually weaker.

Suggested Archetype: Chirurgeon

Scary Hyde
Pros: It's not hard at all for you to get scary fast, especially considering all the things you get to boost it. This is especially good for B. Hyde, whom with Shatter Defenses can get Sneak Attack off on a shaken opponent. Even C. Hyde can enjoy it, although he gets less intrinsic value from it.

Cons: Immunity to fear isn't incredibly uncommon, nor are save bonuses against it. Shaken itself isn't the best debuff you can stick on someone, and this style tends to use its swift actions more readily than others.

Suggested Archetype: Beastmorph

Debuff Bomber
Pros: A specialty of bombers (especially Grenadiers) this route mostly entails using other alchemical items to add to your bombs, as well as using different discoveries to augment your hindering capabilities. There's a few items that work wonders for this, and investing a little coin in some alchemical items could make a huge difference in battles. These can also help keep you useful even once you run out of bombs, perfect for people who are reckless with their explosives.

Cons: As stated, you'll be burning through consumables much quicker than a standard Alchemist, which could really burn a hole in your pocket. Moderation is key here, just like with your bombs, in making sure that you don't run out of resources too quickly.

Suggested Archetype: Grenadier

Mythic Options
While not every game will involve mythic rules, the ones that do will greatly benefit from knowledge of which path to take. With that in mind, the Trickster Path is the only one that specifically gives you abilities as an Alchemist. While you can take other paths, this is the one that gives the most to you as an Alchemist, so think long and hard before taking a different one. Most of the things here won't help Hyde a lot, but even they have things they can enjoy in this path.

Something to note is that a pretty large amount of mythic powers require swift actions, so make sure to reevaluate your design choices for your character with that in mind.

The following items have not been reviewed in actual play, so they're being reviewed on a first viewing. Hopefully I'll get some actual playtesting in with the mythic rules soon enough.

Trickster Path
Trickster Attacks
Deadly Throw (MB/MH) While this is a nice boost in accuracy, it's not something that really screams Mythic.
Fleet Charge (MB/MH) An extra attack as well as increase in mobility will never be a bad thing, and this is an optimal choice for whatever you want to do.
Surprise Strike (MB/MH) Only B. Hyde gets a lot of value out of this, and as I'm reading it, only the Surprise Strike gets flat footed. I'd stick with Fleet Charge, myself.

1st-Tier
Additional Trick (MB/MH) One trick is good enough, the additional options aren't up to par.
Assured Drinker (MB/MH) This is basically Quicken Extract, and especially for a self buffer, this is a strong call.
Assure Skill (MB/MH) Not a huge skill person myself, this feels like a weak use of mythic power. You can really do better here.
Astounding Disable (MB/MH) I've never had trap disable speed ever matter in a game, and even if it did, this is too situational.
Combat Trickery (MB/MH) Even with a dump stat, it's not hard at all to pump your bluff check to crazy heights as well as increasing faster than your BAB. Allowing it to affect everyone around you makes it even better. It doesn't even use mythic power or an action!
Control the Mindless (MB/MH) Another mythless power, this is based off of your best stat and is easily made into a class skill. A bit lower when the undead are thinking, but it gives you an option that you didn't have before that can be quite useful.
Crime Spree (MB/MH) The out of combat bonus is the big one, and it is a class skill, but stealing isn't too helpful. Still, it's flavorful and fun.
Deadly Dodge (MB/MH) This is a solid defensive ability, but it really matters just how good your AC is. I want to like this more, but it gets better if you're using other defensive buffs like Displacement.
Defensive Move (MB/MH) While a nice defensive ability, it's still rather low in the realm of mythic abilities.
Enhance Magic Items (MB/MH) With how much you use potions as well as Use Magic Device, you'll probably end up benefiting pretty often.
Improbable Prestidigitation (MB/MH) While I really like this in style, it's basically a non magical Glove of Storing. So only pick this up if you have a full glove slot.
Master of Escape
Path Dabbling (MB/MH) There's bound to be at least one other path ability that you want from someone else. The only downfall to this is that you can't take it multiple times, so use it well.
Persuasive Countenance (MB/MH) For any social game, this is gold. And again, boosting your diplomacy check isn't hard so go out and be one smooth S.O.B.
Ranged Disable (MB/MH) While trap disabling isn't a big thing, anything that gives you more options to do it safely is appreciated
Ricochet (MB/MH) Not sure how most GMs will rule this with glass vials, but it does help keep your ranged attacks viable despite terrain.
Shadow Stealth (MB/MH) A solid ability to keep you fast in the shadows, but the teleportation effect is what really sells this ability.
Supreme Stealth (MB/MH) This would be good if we didn't already have a feat that did this and better. Only foiling one really makes this a rather weak option.
This Just Might Work (MB/MH) This is a little too subjective to rule on, since it really depends on GM adjudication more than I'm comfortable with giving a rating.
Titan's Bane (MB/MH) This is really specifically for B. Hyde, since getting your opponent flat footed can end encounters before they begin.
Transfer Magic (MB/MH) While it's nice to steal buffs, it does cost a mythic. It'd be nicer if you got to take whatever effect you wanted (and knew what effects were on it), but debuffing an opponent while buffing yourself is a huge swing in combat all with a touch attack.
Trap Taker (MB/MH) Probably my favorite trap ability so far, this allows you to set traps for your opponents, and with Pragmatic Activator, you should be easily disabling traps.

3rd-Tier
Combat Saboteur (MB/MH) You don't have the CMB to be breaking gear like this sadly, as it's a pretty decent debuff. But the further you get, the less things will have gear.
Fickle Attack (MB/MH) This is a pretty solid buff to your damage, although I probably wouldn't take it more than once.
Mirror Dodge (MB/MH) An immediate teleport while negating an attack? Bombers use this to reassert distance, and Hyde can use this to position himself for a flank. Just amazing...
Vanishing Move (MB/MH) Invisibility is always nice, and so is burning a mythic to get Greater Invisibility.

6th-Tier
Class Mimic (MB/MH) Stealing class abilities can be fun, and it gives you a way bigger tool chest to play with.
Enduring Elixir (MB/MH) Take this ASAP, having an extract or potion all day is too good to pass up. I'd suggest taking it again at 9th tier just for the extension on 1/min per level potions as well (Giant Shape I and Monstrous Physique IV come to mind.)
Precision Critical (MB/MH) While you're not great at landing crits, the chance to double your sneak attack damage is worth it (especially with keening daggers, possibly with the B. Hyde build listed.)
Slayer's Cyclone (MB/MH) Hyde should have a good way to make opponents flatfooted, and B. Hyde could tear someone to shreds with this kind of maneuverability.
Steal Power (MB/MH) While it's nice, the opposed rolls as well as the randomness of it all make this hard to recommend.

Universal Path
1st-Tier
Commune with Power (MB/MH) For as early as you can get this, it's a very strong power. Unless you're going Psychonaut, this is really one of the only divination abilities you can pick up.
Display of Stat (MB/MH) For the things you can do with mythic powers, these all seem underwhelming. Maybe Strength and Intelligence, but nothing aside from that is woth checking out here.
Extra Mythic Power (MB/MH) More of an early game power, if you find yourself burning through your powers too fast, this will keep you in business a little longer at least.
Legendary Item (MB/MH) Thematically this is very cool, and gives you a lot of options. The things you can do with it are somewhat limited, so I'd probably only take it twice to have your own minor artifact. Just barely not a shade higher for what it can do though.
Mythic Craft (MB/MH) You're almost a crafter by definition, but unless you have an SLA, you can't take anymore crafter feats, so unless you really want to speed up potion/poison/alchemical item speed, you can leave this one alone.
Mythic Spellcasting (MB/MH) A huge boost to your versatility, this should probably be your second mystic power. Mythic spellcasting is a huge boon for you, although taking it later gives you more high level mythic extracts.
Mythic Sustenance (MB/MH) Lacking the need to breathe is pretty okay, but there's archetypes that give this.

3rd-Tier
Divine Source (MB/MH) While this doesn't really help you at all, it's also incredibly cool. If you have an empty slot, consider becoming a godling.
Enhanced Ability (MB/MH) Another rather weak call for a mythic power, this is really just a filler ability.
Fearless, Pure Body/Destiny/Senses, Unchanging (MB/MH) These are useful immunities, especially senses, but none of them scream mythic.
Sleepless (MB/MH) This really should have been wrapped into Mythic Sustenance, but this gives you more time to craft. I actually like it a lot, since sleep kind of kills a lot of time.
Ultimate Versatility (MB/MH) I like this as a way to test out combos that you've read about (possibly from this guide), as well as always giving you something new to do in combat. Just barely not higher, this is a considerably fun ability.

6th-Tier
Farwalker (MB/MH) Another ability you don't normally have access to, being able to provide your own transport can be very useful, especially if you're cut off from others.
Mythic Presence (MB/MH) While cool in concept, this lacks any practical application and works off of a dump stat. Only consider this for B. Hyde who's working to scare people.
Mythic Sight (MB/MH) Blindsense is pretty powerful, and so is True Sight. I'd suggest taking it twice just for the True Sight boon, although it kind of sucks that it won't work on mythic opponents, who are probably whom you're facing at this level.

Tumor Familiars: A scientific primer
Ah, the Tumor Familiar discovery. You may ask yourself why I've taken time to specifically call this discovery out. It's because it's amazing. Although it does require a few things to really bring it up to full swing, most of which require a less intensive build or a higher level character to pull off. But first, the basics.

You will NEED the Infusion discoveryTo do anything fun with this, you cannot miss this discovery, it is the lynch pin in making everything else work. This is very annoying, but it's the truth. It's what allows you to start playing God with the action Economy. Taking this is also what will allow your familiar to drink one of your extracts to 'hold a charge' for you which you can have it fire off into you whenever you want (provided you didn't drink another extract prior to releasing the charge), which is just heavenly.
You will probably need either a monkey Tumor Familiar or an Improved Familiar, as well as the alternative feat for familiars Extra Item Slot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-item-slot) What we need here are hands, and due to rulings, monkeys are considered to have hands. If monkey isn't your thing or you don't feel like 'edging the rules', pick up an improved familiar (stated to work here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nana?Ultimate-Magic-Ultimate-Combat-Alchemist#4) and here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=224?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#11198)) so that you can pop on a pair of Poisoners Gloves onto your little buddy. With these, he can dose you up with 2 extracts at once (not hard to hit your touch AC since it's low and it gets your BAB), making the action economy weep.
You should consider the Valet familiar archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/valet-familiar-archetype) for your familiarThis just gives you so much as a crafter that it's hard to think of a reason why not to take it. Speeding up your crafting or crafting while you're asleep is going to leave you with way more consumables than you'd normally have, and making magic items with it (as is possible due to the SLA ruling) is even quicker. If you have a familiar, you'll be taking this archetype for it.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 12:55 PM

3. Abilities, Races, and Traits
"Every race has their own way of doing things. The half elves nearly turn into trees, the ratfolk just get everyone sick, and the damn goblins burn everything in sight. Still haven't found that one crazy gnome kid yet though, maybe he really did disappear..." Thark Greybeard, senior professor of alchemical research at Tarth Moorda

Abilities
Strength (MB/MH) For a bomber, this is basically a dump stat unless you plan on using a longbow. But for Hyde, this is probably your primary stat. It’ll affect your attack roles as well as damage and buffing it even higher isn’t hard with everything you can do.
Dexterity (MB/MH) This is important for both types, seeing as it affects your bomber’s accuracy and both character’s AC as well as initiative. Kind of hard to neglect something so important.
Constitution (MB/MH) Less important for the bombers, especially seeing as you'll be at a range, as well as have a good fort save. Hyde needs it more since he'll be in melee, so take care to not let this dip too low.
Intelligence (MB/MH) A stat that affects your bomb’s damage and saves as well as adding to your extracts is very important, although since most of your extracts won’t have a save, Hyde can go a little lower on this one. It's still good to keep it high for skills and such though, and it's basically what defines you as an Alchemist stat wise.
Wisdom (MB/MH) Neither of these two need Wisdom, and if you had a better will save, this would be red. It doesn't really factor into most of your skills, so try to keep it around 10 or so.
Charisma (MB/MH) This is your big dump stat, it adds to nothing that you care about, and anything that does use it can be replaced with traits, so dump this as hard as you can.
Races

Core
Dwarf (MB/MH) Nothing that a dwarf provides really helps you, and aside from Hardy just being a great trait, there’s nothing here that you’re looking for as either type of alchemist.
Elf (MB/MH) The racials are perfect for the bomber, and decent for Hyde. One of the best things about this package for either though is the weapons, which I’ll go into detail with later. But it’s a very solid choice for either type.
Gnomes (MB/MH) Gnomes have some pretty bomber friendly alternative racials like Pyromaniac, as well as 1/2 bomb per level as a favorite class bonus if you're afraid of running out. For a melee character, being small is rarely ever good though, so Hyde can take a pass.
Halfling (MB/MH) Better stats for your bomber and a few useful racial features make this a solid bomb slinger, but again nothing here is going to help you wreck things up in melee.
Half Elves (MB/MH) Flexible stats help sell this, and most of the racials can be traded out to something more useful which helps sell this as a choice.
Half Orc (MB/MH) There’s not a huge variance between this and Half Elf, but again the abilities you can trade out help this out, and medium size is rarely bad.
Human (MB/MH) Humans are amazing for anything, no matter what it is. The feat can be used to start up your ranged attack abilities, pick up extra bombs, or for anything else. The skill points are helpful too, although not vital, so feel free to trade it out.

Featured Races
Aasimar (MB/MH) Your base stat adjustments aren't great for anything, but seeing as you can vary them, it’s not all bad. There’s basically nothing here that you need, but there’s a lot of neat things, and you can at least pull a strength bonus here for Hyde which is surprising rare for most of these races.
Catfolk (MB/MH) Decent stat adjustments, but unless you’re here for some nice claws and eventual pounce (assuming you’re not getting it somewhere else), this is barely above average.
Dhampir (MB/MH) Aside from dexterity, you’re not getting anything you want, and the negative energy affinity basically says that you can’t heal yourself. The stat adjustments of the Jiang-Shi are at least passable though, but the new skill bonuses are kind of strange for you.
Drow (MB/MH) The dexterity bonus is helpful, and the spell resistance isn't awful since it does not apply to your extracts. Add on some decent weapon familiarities, poison use (so you can trade it away), a good SLA, and a perception bonus, and you have a solid alchemist.
Fetchling (MB/MH) I really want to like these more, but aside from another dex/cha race (Why are there so many?) nothing really adds into your class unless you're in the dark a lot.
Goblin (MB/MH) You’re not taking a goblin into melee, but it seems as though god intended these little monsters to huck fire. They have their own archetypes, their own discoveries, and tons of other things that make them custom suited as alchemist.
Hobgoblins (MB/MH) I wish these guys were the inverse of goblins alchemy wise, but unless you’re looking to make a sneaky brawler, they’re just a bit above average with no negative stats.
Ifrit (MB/MH) Fire resistance is actually pretty nice, and trading away for the ability to enlarge yourself once a day is useful for melee, but nothing here is massively useful.
Kobold (MB/MH) This race wasn't balanced to do anything, and without 3.5 kobold tricks, this is a bad race for most things.
Orc (MB/MH) The hit to intelligence hurts, but a +4 to strength is terrifyingly good. Falchion and Greataxe are two great weapons, and Ferocity could keep you up on you feet long enough to finish off your opponent, or trade it away for scent to be hard to sneak up on.
Oread (MB/MH) Not a bomber, but a strength bonus is nice. Trading away some features for Crystalline Form and Treacherous Earth can give you a bit more utility for a melee build.
Ratfolk (MB/MH) No melee, but a gold mine for a bomber. Perfect stat adjustments, very relevant skill bonuses, small size, a VERY good favored class bonus, and a half decent racial archetype earmark this as a great bomber.
Skinwalker (MB/MH) There's going to be at least one flavor of Skinwalker you enjoy, from the +Int/Dex Bloodmarked to the +Str/Int Scaleheart, and of course the possible 6 natural attack capable Ragebred. There's so much variety and versatility, and they all come with great traits as well as an arcane SLA to power Arcane Strike. Just terrifying...
Slyph (MB/MH) Aside from great stat adjustments, you’re not getting anything that’s helping you bomb anyone.
Tengu (MB/MH) A dex bonus is nice, but the real treat here is the bite attack and sword trained. Swapping out S. Trained for the claws though lets you ignore needing feral mutagen, which is another discovery you can use to buff your other offensive styles. Swap out Glide for Linguistics and you’re solid.
Tiefling (MB/MH) Base stat adjustments are gold for a bomber, the resistances are great, and trading away Fiendish Sorcery for a Prehensile Tail gives you the ability to set up your bombs. With the Favored Class bonus to add to damage, it’s hard to get a better bomber. And on the flip side, Oni Spawn makes a great brawler.
Undine (MB/MH) Most of the elemental races are garbage excluding stats. Try going somewhere else for an alchemist.

Uncommon and Other Races
Note: Some of these races come from rather odd sources, so ask your GM before playing any of these.

Android (MB/MH) Now this is a complex beast; perfect stat placement for anyone but Hyde (and not bad for them either) a bunch of resistances and immunities, and great senses. As long as you're avoiding morale bonuses (check your extracts to be sure), you can take your mech and wreck up things as Alphonse.
Duergar (MB/MH) This race gives some nice SLAs, but lacking good stat adjustments makes this a lamentable choice.
Grippli (MB/MH) Just barely passable for a bomber, being a frog monster should be more fun than this. Listed simply to tell you that having a racial archetype doesn't make you a worthwhile race.
Lashunta (MB/MH) We're going male here, as this is the only +2 strength/intelligence race around. A decent buff to the knowledge skill too, this race has a slightly worse form of telepathy out to 30 feet, which is something no other race does. That in and of itself makes this a strong choice, and the best Hyde you could possibly want.
Lizardfolk (MB/MH) Incredible physical racial adjustments (with no penalties) paired with a large natural AC bonus was good on its own, but pairing it with claws and bite opens up a discovery for natural attacker Hyde. Oh, and they can swim too.
Merfolk (MB/MH) Assuming you went Strongtail, these aren't horrible as they get some AC and a dexterity bonus. Plus it's funny, play one for that reason alone.
Monkey Goblin (MB/MH) Another odd race, it has a crazy +4 to dexterity and a tail, along with a climb speed and being small. Again not a great Hyde, but few things are.
Svirfneblin (MB/MH) While their stat adjustments aren't perfect, their racial traits are crazy good. What they get is almost too good for a PC race (not Drow Noble bad however), so get permission before playing this one. It would be higher, but it's much like the Aasmir in the fact that few of these myriad bonuses actually help you be a better Alchemist, it's just a very nice chassis.
Vanara (MB/MH) Son Goku is here simply because of that tail, as a prehensile tail as amazingly useful in just about every situation. Plus its stats aren't hurting anything you really care about, and Tree Stranger helps out Mind Chemist a lot due to its inclusion of knowledges.
Strix (MB/MH) A fly speed to start with (and a pretty good one at that) is a huge bonus to start off with, and their racials don't conflict with anything you want.
Wayangs (MB/MH) Another set of near perfect racials with perception and stealth bonuses and arcane SLAs mark this as a very worthwhile Alchemist. Darkvision seals the deal, making them solid scouts, but being small hurts their chances of being a Hyde candidate.
Wyvaran (MB/MH) The only dragon race of the bunch, this is another flying race with slightly better stat adjustments in place of worse speed and maneuverability. Sadly the tail can't be used to grab items or else this would be purple, but it can make AOOs at full strength bonus, which is often a pretty solid amount.

Traits
There are a ton of traits you can use to customize your Alchemist, and a great deal of them are to add class skills. Rather than go over all of them, I'd rather work on the ones that are more relevant to the class, but I'm also providing the following guide to help you find the best traits to use to add anything in the game to your class skills

Tips and Traits: A guide to Pathfinder Traits (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dVQA-uI740Hh8vq-zsnbHV6UwJg-4QKlpmkxBEmCdhA/edit?pli=1#bookmark=id.pdhmmzqstre9)

Combat Traits
Accelerated Drinker (MB/MH) Drinking a potion as a move action is helping your action economy (Maybe use your standard action to down your Mutagen or throw a bomb). If your GM rules that you can use extracts with this (which I would, since they're basically the same thing) this becomes PURPLE.
Anatomist (MB/MH) None of your weapons have a great crit range, so a +1 to confirm will probably be forgotten soon enough, even if it's very flavorful for B. Hyde.
Armor Expert (MB/MH) For a Substitute Rogue losing some ACP is a good use of your time, but it won't effect really any of your skills aside from that. It also lets you wear a mithril breastplate with no ACP.
Axe to Grind (MB/MH) This is almost specifically for B. Hyde, although C. Hyde can use it as well with his massive reach. Damage bonuses in traits that have easy requirements are perfect.
Bloodthirsty (MB/MH) And on the other side of the scale, we see a more situation damage boost that only works on one attack. This is what we stay away from, children.
Dirty Fighter (MB/MH) B. Hyde should be flanking pretty often to get off his sneak attack, so adding extra damage to that is something you want, as well as being great flavor for a Dirty Trick user.
Firebug (MB/MH) While you don't need a lot of help hitting with bombs, any little bit helps.
Killer (MB/MH) For such a cool name, this falls short of the mark. Either you're using a good threat range 2x crit and doing 2 extra damage on a crit, or a 3x crit and probably killing whatever you crit regardless of 3 extra damage.
Reactionary (MB/MH) Initiative bonuses will always be worth your time, so be aware that anything that boost your initiative as an Alchemist is your friend.
Resilient (MB/MH) It's a good save for you, but your constitution might not be incredible, so this is a worthwhile trait.

Faith Traits
Fate's Favored (MB/MH) Luck bonuses aren't incredibly common (custom magic item maybe?) but with a Luck Stone or half-orc alternative racial trait, this becomes ugly good.
Indomitable Faith (MB/MH) This is a bad save for you and bases off a weak stat for you; do whatever you can to boost your will save.
Inspired (MB/MH) It's a reroll for a skill check, which could be important (disable device, perception), so don't be afraid to get a little insurance on passing a check when it matters.
Omen (MB/MH) This is a zenith for the intimidate build if you have decent Charisma; +1/+4 (for being trained) is good enough, but a once per day swift action demoralize is icing on the cake. If you're a scary monster, THIS is how you make others quake in fear.
Wendifa Apprentice (MB/MH) Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wendifa%20Apprentice), this is only here in case you don't have a scaling SLA to power Arcane Strike and your item creation feats.
Zealous Striker (MB/MH) Dependent on the number of divine casters you're fighting, but this one is a lot better since you could be stacking a lot of free damage onto opponents.

Magic Traits
Air, Earth, Fire, Storm-Touched (MB/MH) I can't imagine running into these opponents enough to validate this decision.
Alchemical Adept (MB/MH) While the +2 to craft is nice, the chance not to ruin your stuff is why you take this.
Alchemical Intuition (MB/MH) Once a day? Uses your charisma? Trait bonus (so it won't stack with other traits?) Later, skater.
Enduring Mutagen (MB/MH) One extra minute a level isn't great, but Hyde wants to stay hulked as long as they can.
Focused Burn (MB/MH) Extra damage is always good, and while it sucks that it has to be fire, this is a trait giving your bombs more damage, although the rate in which it increases is rather slow.
Hedge Magician (MB/MH) This gets better in a low gold game, or if you're a penny pincher since potions can be expensive.
Meticulous Concoction (MB/MH) I like this for a bomber more, as giving a +2 to the DC of a bomb's save is a great way to make it stick, especially if it's affecting more than one person. It's a bit of a Hail Mary though.
Pragmatic Activator (MB/MH) This takes the best skill in the game, and this trait bases it off of your best stat. I can't think of a reason not to want this trait, and it could easily be worth taking Additional Traits to get it.
Precise Treatment (MB/MH) Another swap stat for intelligence, but this is a far less useful skill. Still not bad if you're going the medic route.
Unscathed (MB/MH) Any extra defense is nice, but this is really meant for Tieflings and Aasimars.
Unstable Mutagen (MB/MH) This is such a cool idea, but the downsides outweigh the upsides. Honestly if you're paying a trait to have this, it should have more benefits than penalties, so unless you want to test your luck, you can do without this.

Social Traits
Adopted (MB/MH) This trait is as good as the trait you take with it, so at max it's great, but it can be worse. If your GM rules that this takes up your trait and requires you to burn a trait on the race trait instead of just changing it into a race trait however, it's a big RED.
Avid Reader (MB/MH) Being able to take ten on a knowledge skill can be pretty powerful, and this will keep you from botching it big.
Bruising Intellect (MB/MH) The biggest problem with Intimidate is it ran off charisma. Now you base it off Intelligence; now it's perfect. This is even better than Omen if you tanked your charisma like most Alchemist do, except for the lacking swift action demoralize.
Charming (MB/MH) I've had entire games derailed with this by the player who took it asking "Do they find me sexy?" Skip it now.
Clever Wordplay (MB/MH) This negates your need for charisma entirely, although there's other traits that do more unless you need a specific charisma based skill.
Rich Parents (MB/MH) Gold is fleeting, but bonuses are forever. Even if 900 is a nice sum, by 3rd level you'll have forgotten about it, and be out a great trait.
Student of Philosophy (MB/MH) If you want to be a social Alchemist, this is the way to remove charisma from the picture entirely. Perfect for a social Substitute Rogue, and good in case you need a spokesperson.

Race Traits
Dwarf
Glory of Old (MB/MH) Boosting your natural Dwarven racial bonuses again is totally worth a trait, especially with Steel Soul.
Grounded (MB/MH) A reflex bonus is nice, but a slight acrobatics check also helps make this a worthwhile investment.
Elf
Forlorn (MB/MH) Another +1 to fort, probably better since you're an Elf to even out the constitution hit.
Warrior of Old (MB/MH) And just in case you needed it, another +2 to initiative so you can take a combat trait.
Gnome
Businessman (MB/MH) Never a bad thing to keep pumping that craft: alchemy check.
Rapscallion (MB/MH) A +1 to Escape Artist is not worth the +1 to initiative you're losing.
Half Elf
Elven Reflexes (MB/MH) Again, not hard to find an initiative bonus, especially if you're at least part elf.
Failed Apprentice (MB/MH) Arcane spells are more likely than divine, so this stacks up a bit better as a poor man's Hardy.
Halfling
Helpful (MB/MH) If this works with Swift Aid, this is amazing, bringing your aid another action up to very potent levels.
Well Informed (MB/MH) Diplomacy is a great skill to have once again, and knowledge local can be decent for your Substitute Rogue.
Half Orc
Legacy of Sand (MB/MH) A nice and racial way to get a bonus to will saves.
Tusked (MB/MH) A bite attack is a very nice addition, and a great target for the Adopted trait. It's a perfect fit for races that only have claw attacks, completing the set, and the damage is quite appreciable too.
Human
Carefully Hidden (MB/MH) Even better than most other +1 will traits, you get a bonus against divination spells too, which while rare, is still a free bonus.
Spirits in the Stone (MB/MH) Another +2 to initiative, but with a +1 to saves against traps and hazards too.
Aasimar
Snake Hater (MB/MH) Not an incredibly common knowledge, but getting dungeoneering trained with a +2 bonus is solid if you're investing in it.
Toxophilite (MB/MH) Half of a feat for bows isn't terrible, especially once you pick up your Braces of Falcon's Aim.
Tiefling
Shadow Stabber (MB/MH) B. Hyde is getting the most out of this, as he should be striking from the shadows, and +2 is a nice buff to damage.
Suicidal (MB/MH) You're not tough enough to use this a lot, but some of the sturdier Hydes can use this to save a friend's life.
Skinwalker
Tiger's Claw (MB/MH) Once you're pouncing, this is a straight damage bonus to your best form of attack.
Terrifying Lunge (MB/MH) Another way to make yourself scary, and with the chance of a swift action intimidate to start off the fight.
Bloodline
Blood of Dragons (MB/MH) You take this for low light vision, period.
Deathtouched (MB/MH) Either choice is solid here, but I'd stick with the +1 to fort saves.

Regional Traits
Desert Child, Tundra Child (MB/MH) In no game have I ever had to make a fortitude save against weather. If you do, I guess this is okay.
River Rat (MB/MH) Neither bonus by itself is that special, but combine bonus damage with a dagger with a Swim bonus and making it a class skill, and it's a good deal.
Sea Souled (MB/MH) Always being able to take 10 on Swim checks makes you a great little fish.

Religion Traits
Second Chance (MB/MH) A once a day reroll on any save? There's feats that give less than this, so find you a god and start worshipping for this!
Cheat Death (MB/MH) A second chance at life is always worth a trait, although dropping from a save that does damage isn't super common.
Defensive Strategist (MB/MH) Uncanny Dodge in a trait, need I say more?
Purity of Faith (MB/MH) Another bonus to your will save, with the added bonus of possibly getting more if you're up against evil outsiders. They're probably going to be your enemies, so all hail Iomedae!
Undead Slayer (MB/MH) Undead are a fairly common opponent, and this is a conditionless +1 to damage against them. Raise this up a bit in an undead campaign, but still weak for a religion trait.

Equipment Traits
Heirloom Weapon (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) If this is the unerrata'd version, this is a solid blue since it's a +1 to attack forever and a free martial/exotic weapon proficiency. If it's the errata'd version, it drops hard (although you can still pick up a martial weapon prof without burning a feat, so it's not terrible.) But you will need the spell Masterwork Transformation in order to keep using it after a point.

Faction Traits
Fashionable (MB/MH) Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fashionable), this swaps intimidate for sense motive in relation to Extremely Fashionable. Honestly I think it's a good trade, but it depends on if you need to be scary. Great with Student of Philosphy.
Hunter's Eye (MB/MH) Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Hunter's%20Eye), bows are the best ranged weapon you can get, and this gives you proficiency as well as twice the effective range, so you WANT this.

Campaign Traits
Finding Haleen (MB/MH) Toughness? HA! If your GM lets you take this trait, you take it. This is crazy good in every way, and there's no reason why not to take it unless you're banned from it.
Serpent Runner (MB/MH) Either of the first two benefits is awesome, so you're sure to find someway to use this trait.
Subject of Study (MB/MH) Once you know the kind of opponents you'll be facing, this is permanent extra damage, and even better, it's untyped.
Sword Scion (MB/MH) While starting with a free weapon is nice, the permanent +1 to attack rolls makes this nice. Even better for an elf or half elf if you pick Aldori Dueling Sword as your Ancestral Arms.
Teacher's Pet (MB/MH) Barely better than Secret Knowledge both for being able to start off with it, and not taking up your (very powerful) religion trait.
Touched by Divinity (MB/MH Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Touched%20by%20Divinity ), a free 1st level spell from any domain is pretty nice, as some domains have some nice 1st level spells, and it's a scaling CL so it powers Arcane Strike.
Trap Finder (MB/MH) So, you want to be a Rogue? Here's the keys to the driver's seat, try not to hit its corpse on the way out.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:01 PM

4. Class Abilities, Skills, and Discoveries
"Every page, every note, every scrap of information crafts my skills into a new weapon against those who would impose their will on the weak." -Beow Hassen, professional adventurer, housewife, and proprietor of the 'Griffon's Nest' general store

Class Abilities
While rating class abilities normally wouldn’t be a great idea, considering that you can trade them out with archetypes means that you should have a rating for them.

Alchemy (MB/MH) While you can’t get rid of this for something else, I want to highlight this, as it makes you a factory for alchemic items. At lower levels, this is a lot more helpful (since your DCs for items don’t scale) but there are a few stand outs I’ll bring up later. And remember that poisons and potions can both be made with this. Considering you have a lot of features that involve poison (although you’ll probably trade them away), having a cheaper way of obtaining it is pretty nice, and potion creation is another thing that rarely gets old, even if they are a bit too expensive.
Extracts (MB/MH) The Alchemist has a limited number of Extracts of which provide a huge amount of solutions to your adventuring conundrums. It's true that you don't have the best spell list, but you do have quite a few gems on your list which come from both the arcane and divine list. And the ability to steal spells off of a wizard’s spellbook is golden. You don't get a lot of extracts per level, and the lack of sharing (without taking the “Infusion" discovery) hurts a bit, but this is still a rather large part of the class which helps make it attractive. Also, nothing trades out for it, so you’re stuck with great modified casting, poor you.
Bomb (MB/Mr.Hyde) This is the centerpiece of the bomber due to all the different discoveries and such, and even C. Hyde should take one or two discoveries to add to his arsenal. Your bomb damage starts off pretty nice, but the more you invest in it (Fast Bombs, Sticky Bombs), the more it pays off. Bombs can also carry very nice debuffing abilities, making them quite adaptable to whatever situation you're in. And for Hyde, there's a few archetypes where he can weaken his bombs (or lose them entirely) for some very nice benefits.
Brew potion (MB/MH) This is less valuable for a bomber since they don’t need to be buffed as much. Potions are the most expensive and restrictive type of consumable magic item, you do have exclusive access to some potions that aren't normally possible. Honestly I’d only go as high as 1st level potions, but the options are there so that you can stretch your buffing talent. Hopefully your GM will let you take this if you trade it away for something, as you are the virtuoso of potions and elixirs.
Mutagen (MB/MH) Your bomber won't get nearly the value out of this that Hyde will, but it's still a very solid addition to his ability roster. A +4 to Strength and +2 to AC is very useful for a melee combatant, especially having only light armor to rely on. The duration on this is also very nice, allowing it to last through multiple encounters quite easily. There’s also quite a few discoveries to modify this too, and few archetypes actually trade this away.
Throw Anything (MB/MH) The second biggest source of damage for bombers, the fact that it works with any thrown item is incredible. Even once you run out of bombs, you can continue to throw alchemist fire and acid. It mainly works at lower levels, but it’s always a solid secondary option.
Poison Resistance +2, +4, +6 (MB/MH) You’re not going to use this, basically every archetype replaces these bonuses, look for the best one to get rid of it.
Discoveries (MB/MH) One of the best ways to customize your character, these are the most versatile way (even beyond feats) to define your character. Never be afraid to burn a feat on Extra Discovery, as it will almost always be worth it.
Swift Alchemy (MB/MH) The ability to make alchemical items faster is pretty nice, as is poisoning a weapon as a move action. But neither of these is an incredible thing, so don’t feel bad to remove it for something else. Honestly the biggest problem is that poison isn't great unless you MAKE it great.
Swift Poisoning (MB/MH) This is only slightly more useful for Hyde, as you can’t poison a bomb. But again, this isn’t really that useful at all, and doesn't speed up your item/poison production, so give it a pass if you can.
Poison Immunity (MB/MH) A blanket immunity is never a bad thing, but poison isn't a very common problem for most characters. If it is, bump this up, but for most of us, it’s prime trade bait.
Persistent Mutagen (MB/MH) An hour per level is pretty amazing, it means that you’ll be in mutagen all day. You get this very late, so it’s not incredible, but it guarantees that you’ll be hulked up as long as possible, especially if you take discoveries to buff your mutagen.
Instant Alchemy (MB/MH) This is pretty awesome, but you’re at a point where alchemical items don’t hold a lot of value. If you can find some that stay valuable, it’s great, but that’s a pretty tall order when you’re hunting pit fiends.
Grand Discovery (MB/MH) It’s cool, and if you get here, it’s great. But don’t plan around this, it almost definitely won’t be a factor.

Skills

Class Skills
Appraise I don’t really think this comes up a lot in most games, but it’s an Int based skill, which is something that’s worth giving it a look.
Craft: Alchemy You get a HUGE bonus to this, it’s an Int based skill, and you can make a ton of great stuff. This is your skill, and your trademark as an Alchemist.
Disable Device Having access to this is very nice, gives you some rogue like versatility, and is a Dex based skill so you should be decent at it.
Fly It’s not too hard for you to get a fly speed, so it’s good for you to at least have a few ranks in it.
Heal A Wis skill while you have healing ability is pretty meh. This doesn't need a huge investment, and even one rank in it would be enough.
Knowledge: Arcana This is a pretty common knowledge and an Int skill, so it’s good to keep this maxxed.
Knowledge: Nature I like this, it’s thematic and pretty nice to have. It’s especially useful if no one else has it, and it amuses me for this skill to be green.
Perception You were blessed with this as a class skill, and while you might not have the Wis to make it incredible, there is NO reason why not to max this as hard as you can.
Profession Yeah…no. I don’t even think with the new downtime rules this is useful, so skip it unless you really want to know how to run a bakery.
Sleight of Hand Another skill that lets you substitute for a Rogue, this is only moderately useful for most situations.
Spellcraft: Since you’ll need this to copy spells out of other people’s books, and it’s an Int based skill, it’s pretty important to you.
Survival You have magic, you don’t need survival. Survival is for classes that can’t warp reality.
Use Magic Device This is the best, most versatile skill in the game, and taking it should be obvious if you have any level of magic in your game.

Non Class Skills
Social Skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive) Out of these, Diplomacy is the only one I’d put any investment in, and even then you’re bound to have a terrible Cha, so unless no one else is willing to be the spokesperson for the group, stay away from these.
Intimidate Somehow not a class skill, you're pretty good at intimidating people. There's tons of traits to pick this up, so you have options if you want to go Scary Hyde.
Knowledges Most of these aren't as good as the ones you get, although planes and religion are most likely the ones you'll be wanting to snipe.
Sense Motive Another strong social skill, I wish there was some way to make this intelligence based.
Stealth For a dex based class, this is hard to pass up, especially for a small Mad Bomber. You have other options that help boost your stealth, so taking a trait for this is a meaningful investment.

Discoveries
Note: All discoveries with a * cannot be combined, and all Alchemist Discovers are either EX or SU. The level requirement for each discovery will be listed before it, and discoveries out of alphabetical order are listed after their prerequisites, if any.

2nd Acid Bomb*(MB/MH) The only thing good about this is the damage type, as acid isn't rarely resisted, but it has a very lame rider effect, so only take it if you want variety in your damage types.
8th Alchemical Simulacrum (MB/MH) There's honestly a lot of fun things you can do with a simulacrum. While it's kind of expensive, getting a half level copy of yourself could help increase your damage for a day as well as serving as prerequisite for...
10th Doppelganger Simulacrum (MB/MH) While you're going to be at half strength, this is an incredible scouting ability. It's kind of hard to say no something this useful; never underestimate being more than one person. It'd be perfect if it didn't cost 1k, but by level 10, this won't be a huge issue.
14th Greater Alchemical Simulacrum (MB/MH) A simulacrum for 1/5th the cost? This is amazing. Simulacrum is already a great spell, this isn't limited to Simulacrums of yourself, and even if it was, this would still be fantastic.
8th Alchemical Zombie (MB/MH) Undead are the worst controllable minion you can get, and zombies especially. Still they can be used for anything a normal meat shield can as well as have bombs implanted inside of them with other abilities, which makes them at least passable.
8th Blinding Bomb*(MB/MH) Blind is a very brutal condition to inflict on someone, and even C. Hyde would love to start the battle blinding someone.
10th Sunlight Bomb*(MB/MH) Unless you're in an undead (or underground?) campaign, the extra damage isn't going to come into play enough to use a discovery to buff it. But if you're in a graveyard, show them the sun!
6th Bottle Ooze (MB/MH) Being unable to control this and making it cost an extract is terrible. Sadly by the time you get this, the ooze will never be relevant to combat. You wanna summon, go Preservationist.
6th Breath Weapon Bomb*(MB/MH) While a 15 feet cone isn't great, nor is being in melee range, the chance to hit more than one person with a direct hit is decent. But lacking the ability to stack other types onto this kind of kills it for anyone other than C. Hyde playing crowd control.
8th Celestial Poisons (MB/MH) I really want to like this more, but the best way to make poisons work (stacking inhaled doses) won't work on undead, and fiends are prone to having high fort saves. If you're willing to put a significant GP investment into this or are a poison specialist, this is your discovery. Also as far as I know, there's no way for an undead to heal ability damage...
2nd Chameleon (MB/MH This doesn't really give you anything that special, barely more than a Skill Focus, so don't bother with it.
12th Change Alignment (MB/MH) Unless you can trick someone else into drinking this, it's basically worthless. Flavorful, but also not worth a discovery.
2nd, 12th, 16th Cognatogen, Greater, Grand (MB/MH) The main thing this does is add +2 damage per bomb and to the save DC which I suppose a dedicated bomber could enjoy. The ability damage is a bit rough though (Only strength is fine, but the higher levels start to hit your other physical stats as well), meaning this is really only a once a day sort of thing unless you want to spend extracts healing your ability damage.
8th Combine Extracts (MB/MH) This is hard to recommend, as most third level extracts will be better than two first level ones. That, and you can buy this Discovery, making it even harder to validate taking this.
2nd Concentrate Poison (MB/MH) This is basically the only way to stack poisons aside from ingested or inhaled. The time limit on this one is a huge stumbling block though, since you have an hour to use it or it goes bad. If you're nuts about poisoning though, this is another one for you.
6th Concussive Bomb*(MB/MH) A better damage type than fire with a somewhat useful debuff, but a drop in damage dice. Unless deafening someone is very important in your games, this fall short of the mark.
8th Confusion Bomb*(MB/MH) As of its errata/FAQ, it now gives a save and it's too complicated in its rules for how it responds to the attack to be reliable from table to table. Really a sad loss for such a decent ability.
8th Deadly Excretion (MB/MH) Both no and ew. Racial poisons are lame, once a day racial poisons are lamer, and taking discoveries to buff either one of them is apex lame. Buy your own poison, ya hobo.
2nd Defoliant Bomb (MB/MH) A: It's a poison effect so tons of things get bonuses or are immune to it B: Plants are probably the most rare type of enemy you face C: It does less damage to anything that's not a plant D: Your bombs ARE FIRE, FIRE KILLS PLANTS JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE!
8th Delayed Bomb (MB/MH) I almost feel bad grading this one, as it feels like something that you could really be creative with. It's the prerequisite for some fun things, although by itself it doesn't really do a lot.
8th Demolition Charge*(MB/MH) I really want to like this, but it's just...it doesn't do anything worth doing. If it bypassed hardness, it would be okay, but an extra two dice of damage against unattended objects isn't enough.
12th Dilution (MB/MH) Once per day, you may get a potion or elixir for 1/4th the cost. And you thought you were a potion factory before, just look at you now! Sadly potions are still the most expensive consumable, but you're getting a far better return on your investments.
6th Dispelling Bomb (MB/MH) Dispelling is a pretty useful effect, enough so to validate losing damage. An interesting note about this bomb is it can be used with others, so combining this with a Frost or T. Foot bomb still nets you both effects, which allows you to debuff while you debuff.
16th Elixir of Life (MB/MH) The only reason this isn't higher is the price. Yeah, it's a (True) Resurrection in a bottle, or a bonus life, but as a bonus life it works only as regular Resurrection, and has an expiration date. While still very solid, you wouldn't be crazy to pass this up, especially with how close you are to getting a Philosopher's Stone...
2nd Enhance Potion (MB/MH) It's never bad to get a potion at a higher caster level, so this is okay. If you make a lot of potions, this gets better though.
2nd Explosive Bomb*(MB/MH) A bigger boom and lighting someone on fire is nice, but it's mainly for minion control, as being on fire does not give a penalty on rolls, which is crazy when you think about it.
12th Siege Bomb*(MB/MH) This is almost the definition of "situational", and while it shines in its situation, unless you have a siege weapon around pretty often as well as a target who validates firing it, leave this to the big war campaigns.
4th Explosive Missile (MB/MH) This removes range as a problem, as well as adding some damage. The problem being that you lose it as a touch attack, as well as losing out on iteratives. If you have a decent ranged weapon (Longbow) and decent dex though, this will let you fire off some nasty debuffs and damage from a lot further away.
2nd Extend Potion (MB/MH) In and of itself, this is underwhelming. But you're not taking this for this, you're taking it so you can later take...
16th Eternal Potion (MB/MH) A potion that last forever is beautiful. This will always be useful, so have fun picking out whatever spell you want to always have effecting you.
8th Fast Bombs (MB/MH) This is your bomb nova option, and probably incredible if you don't have much combat per day. The more fights you have per day, the worse this is. But the thought of throwing out 4 different kind of debuff bombs in the same round eventually is beyond cool.
2nd Feral Mutagen (MB/MH) The BACKBONE of B. Hyde, this gives you 3 attacks at full BAB starting at second level. No one else gets this level of offensive presence so soon.
2nd Fire Brand (MB/MH) Nothing that you do is made better by wasting a bomb for a +1 to your weapon. A goblin shouldn't be doing anything but throwing bombs.
8th Force Bomb*(MB/MH) Force is the best type of damage you can do, and it's worth the decrease in damage to make sure everything takes damage. It's decent for C. Hyde too, as knocking down an opponent (reflex negates) is a great start to mauling them.
2nd Frost Bomb*(MB/MH) This should be your first bomb, and if you care about bombs at all, you should have this by level 4 at the latest. Cold damage is nice, but a staggering effect at 2nd level is a game ender for most opponents, and is even worth it being a fort save (Most opponent's best save.) This bomb ages well too, and makes a decent hail mary against bigger creatures, as staggering destroys most melee brutes offensive momentum.
6th Grease Bomb*(MB/MH) A very nice area denial effect, leaving the ground around your opponent dangerous territory. With Precise Bomb and this, you can custom tailor the splash radius of this too. Too bad it can't be an Explosive Bomb as well.
8th Holy Bomb*(MB/MH) Just in case you ever wanted to use the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch in a game, here you go. This is almost a "smart" frost bomb, and since most enemies you'll be fighting are evil, you'll get off the stagger shot pretty often. The secondary effects of not hitting good at full power depend on your party, but it's a sneaky way to try and force them to be good. "I don't know, Jace. That bomb wouldn't have hurt if you'd have fed those orphans."
3rd Immolation Bomb*(MB/MH) While this is such a cool visual, and over time it does do more damage to an opponent, the further along you play, the less likely that residual damage will come into play. C. Hyde especially doesn't want to give his opponent a flame bomb effect to stand next to and continue to take fire damage.
2nd Infuse Mutagen (MB/MH) This cost 1k to do, does intelligence damage to you, and really only gives you a back up in case you don't have an hour to make another one. One of those would be bad enough, but both are awful. Hyde likes having a mutagen ready for whatever though, so it's slightly more useful on his side of things.
2nd Infusion (MB/MH) This really is a discovery tax, which I don't care for at all. Your bomber needs it more, since they want to pass out their buffs, while Hyde wants them all to themselves, so he can live without it. Sad since the bomber needs his discoveries way more than Hyde. This goes PURPLE if you plan on abusing a familiar/Poisoner's Gloves.
4th Lingering Spirit (MB/MH) Unless you're willing to take Endurance and Diehard to make this worth a discovery slot, leave it to die.
12th Madness Bomb (MB/MH) Now this is a team player bomb, help to set your mage friends up for a SOL spell. This is also a great bomb to spam, as even one wisdom damage per shot will hurt if you're throwing 4 a round. While it reduces your damage dice by two, the best thing about this bomb is that it CAN be used with other bomb types, so you can lower your damage to add a pretty nice debuff.
10th Malignant Poison (MB/MH) If you had any other way to raise your poison DC, this would be great, since it removes the onset time from poisons that would rock your opponent hard. It's probably one of the best poison discoveries, and with Celestial Poison, could make it up to GREEN.
2nd, 12th, 16th Mutagen, Greater, Grand (MB/MH) Hyde thrives on mutagen, and making it better is making them better. Everyone but the bomber enjoys better physical stats, so continue following along with this discovery chain if your game goes this high.
12th Nauseating Flesh (MB/MH) How often are you bitten or eaten in a game? Does this happen often to you? Are you prone to smelling like food? If so, here you go Mr. or Mrs. Worst Character Ever!
6th Poison Conversion (MB/MH) Most of this guide I bashed poison, but here's where it pays off. There's only one type of poison worth using, and that's inhaled. Why's that? Because multiple doses of it add a +2 to the DC the opponent has to make. So just take your favorite low cost poison (Drow poison, if you please), make a metric ton of it, convert it to inhaled, put it all in a glass bottle, and huck it at someone to watch them make a stupidly high DC. Make sure to follow the suggestions in the Poison Primer I included, as there's a lot of other poison types that are very cheap that can damage different stats as well.
2nd Precise Bombs (MB/MH) This also feels like another discovery tax, since your bomber will be throwing bombs all the time. It's a required discovery so your party doesn't hate you, and should be taken by level 4 at the latest.
2nd Preserve Organs (MB/MH) Light fortification that doesn't stack with similar effects isn't great, especially since you can buy fortification, but you're probably taking this so that you can take...
10th Mummification (MB/MH) Although it has some weird fluff qualifications, and you're a living mummy, you're immune to cold, non lethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. That's a nice group of immunities for only 2 discoveries, even if you are a freaking monster.
2nd Rag Doll Mutagen (MB/MH) Nothing here is good until level 10, and by that level, you should be flying or setting things on fire while on solid ground.
6th Psychoactive Bomb (MB/MH) Some slight penalties on a few random effects aren't saving this discovery, although at least it doesn't have a save. Not worth the level or the reduction in damage.
4th Ranged Baptism (MB/MH) First of all, Ranged Baptism is something I never thought I'd have to type. Secondly, adding utility to Holy Water is never a bad thing, as is Consecrating an undead for X/Rounds, it's just hard to validate against other discoveries.
6th Rocket Bomb (MB/MH) I don't really understand why this is goblin only, and while the extra splash range makes it a better mook killer, lacking a solid target removes SO many debuff options. The best thing this does is expand cloud range, so smokers may find more value in this.
2nd Scrap Bomb (MB/MH) Another goblin only, and it's not great since bleed can't stack. It's nice to stick it on something early in the encounter though if you know the bleed will eventually wear it down a bit. But I'd stick with Sticky Bomb for extra damage.
2nd Shock Bomb*(MB/MH) The Acid Bomb at least did extra damage, but this DAZZLES them for 1d4 rounds. Dazzled is the lamest debuff in the game, you can do better than this.
2nd Smoke Bomb*(MB/MH) This is such a love/hate discovery for me; on the one hand it leads to some other VERY good discoveries, but on the other hand it also obscures your partners and your own aim. For the review of anything else that involves Smoke Bombs, I'm going to assume you have some way to see through it (such as Fogcutting Lenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/fogcutting-lenses).) If not, I would try to avoid smoking out people.
16th Inferno Bomb*(MB/MH) Another mook killer, this would probably wipe out an army pretty quickly. Since it moves though, it won't really hurt someone more than once after they get out of it, but for crowd control it's an admirable discovery but overshadowed by another cloud (PUN!)
8th Plague Bomb*(MB/MH) Disease isn't a great debuff unless you're an NPC and you can wait the days for it to actually matter. This'll just cause some minor ability damage (if it does that), and not much else.
8th Lingering Disease (MB/MH) If you REALLY want to make someone sick, this is the way to do it, but disease is really a bad way to go about it.
16th Plague Bomb, Greater*(MB/MH) Same stat damage, just harder to get rid of it. This is such an NPC ability, but it's good for that.
12th Poison Bomb*(MB/MH) This is probably a better mook killer than Inferno Bomb as well as a lower level. Neither are great, but this is again another great crowd control bomb against small waves of weaklings.
2nd Stink Bomb*(MB/MH) Nauseated ends encounters, and since it only last one round, as long as you don't gas your party, you can use this with impunity. But only lasting one round isn't great either, since it only forces one save. Yet it's a save that could take them out of the fight for 1d4+1 rounds.
2nd, 6th Spontaneous Healing, Healing Touch (MB/MH) The real selling point of this discovery is that it activates upon going unconscious, although the healing isn't impressive. While Healing Touch isn't great either, boosting the amount of curing it delivers is why you're taking it, especially since it has such needless restrictions.
10th Sticky Bomb (MB/MH) While most people are going to get maybe 8+ damage out of this max, your fast bomber will be getting 2-4 times that much damage on a target one round after, making this a nice way to add some damage, especially if you had to pay some for Confusion or Madness Bombs
6th Sticky Poison (MB/MH) If you're going to poison weapons, you need this. Getting 3-5 times your money worth on a poison is worth a discovery. If only poisoning was a better tactic...
2nd Strafe Bomb (MB/MH) While it's good to have variety in how your bombs go off, a straight line will rarely be the best way to detonate them. However this discovery does work quite well with Smoke Bombs on breaking lines of sight, as well as in tight corridors.
2nd Tanglefoot Bomb*(MB/MH) While not an auto entangle like a regular tanglefoot bag, this also can entangle anyone in the splash radius, making it a weapon that can debuff A LOT of opponents at once.
2nd Tentacle (MB/MH) Basically you're getting a hands free grapple with this, which is servicable, but nothing crazy good.
2nd Vestigial Arm (MB/MH) Thanks to the new errata/FAQ, picking up more than one of theses is worthless, so unless you need fine manipulation (in which case just use your tentacle and one hand to hold things and your regular hand for the other), this is completely outstripped by tentacle.
2nd Parasitic Twin (MB/MH) Not only is this weird as hell, it doesn't provide nearly the benefit that 3 discoveries should. Getting to possibly pass off a bad effect isn't incredible, maybe if you didn't have to roll the save again it could be good, but it's once a day and that's pretty restrictive for the cost.
2nd Tumor Familiar (MB/MH) Thanks to the ability to use extracts with Share Spells as well as Deliver Touch Spells, which if you pick a monkey would give you a quickened extract per turn. Getting the skill bonuses of the familiar (Greensting Scorpion for +4 Initiative) and Alertness as well as an extra pair of eyes that you can absorb back into your body is even better. I'd say this familiar is better than a normal one, aside from possibly not being eligible for Improved Familiar.
2nd Underwater Demolition (MB/MH) Quick question: Do you spend time underwater? If the answer to that is yes, then you probably already took this. And if it's no, you probably didn't know that this existed in the first place.
6th Wings (MB/MH) There's enough ways to fly on your extract list that you should feel ashamed for being this lazy. Wings that you get at level 6 should be all day flight wings, not minutes per level. This does get better if your GM allows retraining.

Grand Discoveries
20th Awakened Intellect (MB/MH) While reliable, this is also one hell of a boring capstone. If you can't think of something else, this works, but it feels lame to end your career like this.
20th Change Alignment, Greater (MB/MH) By the time you have this, Wish and Miracle aren't out of the picture, so unless you feel like running around spiking drinks into making people good forever, I'd skip over this.
20th Eternal Youth (MB/MH) This feels like a story reward, not a class feature. Stay away from this unless your game takes aging considerations into play AND you're not an elf.
20th Fast Healing (MB/MH) Another boring capstone, but never needing long term healing isn't bad. It just feels like there should be something...cooler here...
20th Philosopher's Stone (MB/MH) Hm, infinite free money and potions of True Resurrection? Now THIS is a capstone. I'm sure you could use it to grow back an arm and a leg if you had to as well.
20th Poison Touch (MB/MH) Your capstone is being uncomfortable to touch? At a level where most things are immune to poison? Are you REALLY proud of yourself?
20th True Mutagen (MB/MH) This is what Hyde's been waiting for since he first started mixing test tubes. Hell, even your bomber can enjoy tons of extra HP, AC, initiative bonuses, and being super strong (If he has the prereqs).

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:03 PM

5.Feats
"Most people, they get caught up da the explosions and rush of chemicals that go with da job, but that's when ya get tripped up. You gotta remember the basics, or ya ain't goin' nowhere!" Jack T.R., bandit leader of the Crimson Curse

Core Rulebook
Skill Feats (MB/MH) (Acrobatic, Alertness, Athletic, Skill Focus: Any) A while back I heard a statement that I still agree with, "Never take a feat that doesn't let you do something new, or at least that you couldn't before." No skill feat meets that prerequisite, and so unless you have a specific backstory in mind that demands it, it's required for a better feat, or are getting it as a bonus feat (Half Elves and certain Humans), leave these feats alone. Unless there is another benefit to a feat like this, I won't be including skill boosting feats.
Agile Maneuvers (MB/MH) Honestly only Hyde cares about CMB, and they should have a decent dexterity anyways, especially Agile B. Hyde.
Arcane Strike (MB/MH) Now before you say Alchemist aren't casters, thanks to the recent FAQ ruling where SLAs qualify you for feats this is totally viable if you take a race that has an arcane SLA. What makes this crazy is that the bonus to damage applies to EVERY one of your weapons, which for B. Hyde could mean anywhere between 3 and 6 (tentacle+4 claws+bite) getting a damage bonus for a swift action a round. And considering this adds to your bomb and splash damage too, bombers love it as well! This alone makes any race with an arcane SLA that much better.
Armor Proficiency, Medium and Heavy (MB/MH) Considering you can get a mithril breastplate at 0 ACP with the Armor Expert trait, medium is a dead feat. Which also makes heavy a dead feat, especially if you pick up Mithril Hellknight Plate with the Sargavan Guard trait in addition to the first one (or the cost of taking Additional Traits for both.)
Combat Expertise (MB/Mr. Hyde) While you're never going to likely use this feat, it's the prereq to a bunch of other good feats. I hate needing it though.
Improved, Greater Combat Maneuver (MB/MH) There are only two combat maneuvers you want to do, and that's trip and dirty trick. If it's not those, it's not worth taking.
Improved, Greater Trip (MB/MH) Extra attacks are good, getting an opponent on the ground is good, bonuses for attacking a prone opponent are good.
Combat Reflexes (MB/MH) If you spend time with a reach weapon, large, or both like C. Hyde should, this is how you own the field. B. Hyde can live without it though.
Critical Feats (MB/MH) You get these too late to matter, the only decent crit range weapon you get is a dagger, and you're just not the person to use these feats to their fullest.
Deadly Aim (MB/MH) There's a good chance you have a crossbow (or hopefully a long bow) as a back up weapon, and if you're a bomber, you probably took a few feats to improved your ranged combat, so this isn't a bad one to keep improving it, despite it not working with bombs.
Defensive Combat Training (MB/MH) While you don't want to be in a situation where it matters, having some extra defense against being grappled/tripped/ect is preferable to none.
Dodge (MB/MH) Dodge breaks the "Does something new rule" I set out earlier, but it's also a prereq for a lot of feats, including Crane Style, so we have to just take it. Who knows, maybe we'll Crane Block with a vestigial hand.
Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Shot on the Run (MB/MH) This feat will lead us nowhere good, let us ignore it and pray it never returns.
Endurance, Diehard (MB/MH) The only reason to take this is for Diehard, and that's just to combo with Lingering Spirit and have a much larger amount of time before you die. It's a decent combo, but I don't think it's worth 2 feats.
Exotic, Martial Weapon Proficiency (MB/MH) If only to pick up a long bow, it's barely worth it. But for Hyde, getting a decent exotic weapon with good threat range or reach could really increase your combat prowess.
Great Fortitude, Improved (MB/MH) Fort is an important save, but it's a good save, so you could go without this easily.
Improved Familiar (MB/MH) You don't need a guide to see what makes a familiar that could hold wands or do other things to see why this is amazing.
Improved Initiative (MB/MH) Going first is good, especially for bombers who can hit clustered together groups. Going first means buffing first too, so Hyde cares about this just as much.
Improved Unarmed Strike (MB/MH) Another prereq feat, slowly making our way to Crane Style. It's not a bad feat to always be armed, but I'd skip it if you're not going Crane.
Deflect, Snatch Arrow (MB/MH) Bombers won't have IUS because they don't want Crane, and Hyde is going to be in melee, so there's less of a chance of him getting shot. Neither side wants this.
Intimidating Prowess (MB/MH) Hyde can at least intimidate like a big tough guy, although unless you're willing to invest in being scary, I'd stay away.
Iron Will, Improved (MB/MH) This is your bad save with a bad stat, you need all the help you can get, especially considering how badly failing a will save can mess you up.
Leadership (MB/MH) No rating. If you're allowed to take it, do it. If not, leave it alone.
Lightning Reflexes, Improved (MB/MH) This is a good save for you, and you should have a decent to good dex, so don't waste a feat here.
Lunge (MB/MH) Add this onto large size with a reach weapon and you're at about 25 feet of range. Not bad for a battle field controller.
Mounted Feats (MB/MH) Nothing you do is done better from the back of a horse...or dog...or whatever you want to ride, I won't judge you.
Nimble Moves (MB/MH) Always being able to take a five foot step is a decent way to keep yourself mobile...unless you're just in one spot hucking bombs.
Point Blank Shot (MB/MH) It adds to your attack and damage, which makes it perfect at the range you'll be throwing them.
Far Shot (MB/MH) Any stringed weapon will have good enough range, and splash weapons get a better version of this in Splash Weapon Mastery.
Precise Shot, Improved (MB/MH) Not taking a -4 for throwing into melee is pretty nice. Combo this with Precise Bombs and you are party friendly in your bomb chucking. And the improved version of this will make sure nothing stops your attacks from going through.
Rapid Shot (MB/MH) Even with just a crossbow, this is a solid feat. And with Fast Bombs, it's harbinger of the end times.
Manyshot (MB/MH) If you have a Bow, you take it. If you do not, you don't. Simple as that.
Power Attack (MB/MH) Hyde wants this at 3rd level, no questions asked. Controller or Brutal, Hyde wants this.
Cleave (MB/MH) If you're not going the natural weapon progression, then this is a solid feat since you won't get a second attack until level 8. But if you're B. Hyde, this is a pass.
Great Cleave (MB/MH) The investment is too great, just stick with Cleave.
Quick Draw (MB/MH) If you've got a bow or a weapon, getting it out faster will help. Natural attackers and bombers can ignore this though.
Rapid Reload (MB/MH) If you're using a gun, eventually you'll need this. Although honestly, you're better using this feat to pick up Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow instead of taking this for your crossbow unless you're going with a launcher crossbow.
Shield Feats (MB/MH) A masterwork buckler has no ACP. You don't need shield feats, you don't shield bash, just leave these to the Fighters.
Step Up (MB/MH) Keeping people from getting outside of your melee range is a great thing, make sure to stay nice and close to them.
Toughness (MB/MH) Another feat that breaks my rule, but some people like it. Personally, I think there's better things you can do with your feats than gaining HP, but if you're worried about your total, here's a pretty big buffer (Don't forget Diehard/Lingering Spirit either)
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved, Greater (MB/MH) It feels weird not recommending this for Hyde, but he's either using one big weapon, or natural attacks unless you're growing extra arms. This WILL increase your bomb output as soon as you hit level 8 though, which can end encounters before they begin if you're fast enough.
Two Weapon Fighting Feats (MB/MH) None of these help you, and they barely help a regular TWFer.
Vital Strike, Improved, Greater (MB/MH) Since bombs don't qualify, you're getting nothing here, just like everyone else.
Weapon Focus (MB/MH) Another prereq feat, but if you have to waste a feat on something that isn't new, offense is always better than defense.
Dazzling Display (MB/MH) A full round action to scare everyone isn't great, but a debuff is a debuff, and a decent way to start combat. Although if you can go non core, Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) is a much better way of doing this. But the other reason we're taking this is for...
Shatter Defenses (MB/MH) For a Vivisectionist, this is why you came here. Anything you can do to help you sneak attack is worth doing with that build.
Weapon Finesse (MB/MH) You're going to have decent to good dexterity, so might as well put it to work. B. Hyde could use this until he picks up his Amulet of Mighty Fist (Agile), which becomes a better call if your GM allows retraining.

Advanced Players Guide
Additional Traits (MB/MH) Traits are amazing, and this feat is amazing because of it. If you have room in your build, you'll never regret having two extra traits.
Arcane Talent (MB/MH) The only reason to pick this up is for a someone who needs an arcane SLA to get Arcane Strike, that's it. There should be some kind of racial you can trade out to do that anyways.
Combat Patrol(MB/MH) C. Hyde could possibly use this, but it isn't good enough to take Mobility as a prereq.
Crossbow Mastery(MB/MH) The only reason to take this is to get your full attacks with a launching crossbow, although if you're going for straight damage, this is probably the best way to do it.
Dastardly Finish(MB/MH) No one but (Vivisectionist) B. Hyde can take this, and I'm not sure if he has a reliable way to set up either of these conditions. If so though, it does get much better.
Dazing Assault(MB/MH) While Daze is a decent debuff, taking -5 on your attacks to force a low save against most monster's best save is not worth a feat, especially one this late.
Deepsight (MB/MH) Darkvision is pretty useful. Doubling it isn't a terrible use of a feat.
Eldritch Claws (MB/MH) Either Arcane Strike or a potion of Great Magic Fang should be doing this, although Silver isn't a bad material to bypass.
Elven Accuracy (MB/MH) If you're an elf, being able to reroll against miss chance isn't awful. Thankfully it's not once a day, which is why this isn't lower.
Enforcer (MB/MH) The duration of the demoralization is what makes this a solid seller, and it's a free action so you can still do whatever else you have planned that round. Good for a scary hulk.
Extra Bombs (MB/MH) I'm hesitant to really recommend this, since it's only two more bombs. That's not a lot for a feat, but if you're tearing through them (like any good Mad Bomber should), feel free to pick up a few extra.
Extra Discovery (MB/MH) Discoveries are for the most part better than feats. This is especially true for your bombers, who needs as many different bombs as they can get their hands on to keep people off guard.
Fight On (MB/MH) Staying on your feet is generally good, and with this Orcs and Half Orcs have even more staying power.
Focused Shot (MB/MH) This is better for a bomber, since again they probably invested in ranged combat a bit more, so giving your arrows a bit more sting when you're trying to preserve bombs (or are out) isn't terrible, especially since you don't get a second attack for much longer than a full BAB class.
Following Step (MB/MH) This isn't great, since if something's not moving 5 feet away from you, it's not going to stop at ten. The only thing that makes this good is...
Step up and Strike (MB/MH) The golden rule for Hyde is to get as many attacks as you can. And if you trip them, you stop their movement AND debuff them, which is a very solid strategy.
Furious Focus (MB/MH) Your power attack penalty should never be big enough to the point where you care to reduce it for the cost of a feat. Although for scary Hyde, it does lead into...
Dreadful Carnage (MB/MH) Another free action demoralize, but by this point you already have better ways to do this. It's not a terrible option as it is a free action, so if you're built around scaring, you could do worse.
Gang Up, Team Up (MB/MH) Since by rules this doesn't let you get a ranged flank, this is worthless, as is its follow up. You shouldn't be aiding others when you could be controlling the field.
Gnome Trickster (MB/MH) These are some of my fave level 0 spells, so I have a bit of a soft spot for them. It's a decent feat, but nothing incredible here.
Heroic Defiance (MB/MH) Holding off a game ending condition for one round can turn the tide of combat. While having to take Endurance and Diehard is pretty painful, this is a pretty solid reward for it.
Heroic Recovery (MB/MH) ...and then there's this. A standard action, only fort saves, and doesn't work against instantaneous effects. Just be thankful this wasn't a prereq for Heroic Defiance and let's move on.
Improved, Greater Dirty Trick (MB/MH) And yet another reason to take Combat Expertise. Dirty tricks are great, versatile, and a solid standard action after a move for when you need to position yourself. As an alchemist, you have great flavor for all the ways you could pull them off too.
Improved Stonecutting (MB/MH) This is a hard RED by itself, but it serves as the prereq to the much better...
Stone Sense (MB/MH) Tremorsense is very nice. Blindsense/sight would be better, but this is incredible for staying aware of everything around you.
Ironguts, Ironhide (MB/MH) Remember the rule, although Iron Hide is at least less terrible.
Keen Scent (MB/MH) Again, scent is very powerful, and you're better when you're in the loop on what's going around you.
Light Step (MB/MH) The prereqs kind of kill this, but it's a decent ability if you went through the feat chain.
Low Profile (MB/MH) Barely better for your bomber, the main benefit is not providing cover for opponents.
Lucky Halfling (MB/MH) Being able to roll a fort save for your Wizard or reflex save for your Cleric can be very helpful, even if it's just once a day.
Master Alchemist (MB/MH) It feels weird to rank this so low, but the benefit here is the increased crafting speed. A skill bonus with this is pretty nice, but hard to validate a feat on.
Pushing Assault (MB/MH) For a two handed Hyde, this is nice, especially if you're large. It's good for controlling your opponent's movement, and even better if you have a reach weapon.
Racial Heritage (MB/MH) I feel like this is open to abuse, but nothing springs to mind. If anyone can think of anything, let me know.
Razortusk (MB/MH) If you're not willing to give up Ferocity, or gave it up for something else, this is a okay call. But considering you get a better bite from Feral Mutagen, this isn't a great feat.
Rending Claws (MB/MH) It's a situational 1d6 of damage, that's not great. If you have 4 claws instead, it gets a little better, but nothing that you can't live without.
Shadow Strike (MB/MH) For your Vivisectionist, this might become an issue eventually, so seeing as it somehow lacks any prereqs, feel free to take it if people start blurring against you.
Shield of Swings (MB/MH) Half your damage for a +4 shield bonus to AC? Ha!
Stabbing Shot (MB/MH) This is a nifty feat that does allow you to manipulate the board a bit more. I want to like this more, but most archers won't be great at landing melee attacks. Still, if you find yourself making longbow attacks that are getting interrupted, this is a good way to make distance.
Steel Soul (MB/MH) Most important saves you'll be making will be against magic, so this is a +2 to a lot of important saves. Being a Dwarf Alchemist is hard, but with this feat, I may bump them up to GREEN.
Swift Aid (MB/MH) If you're not using your swift action for anything else *COUGH*ARCANE STRIKE*COUGH*, this isn't a terrible use of it, although it's only a +1 instead of a +2.
Taunt (MB/MH) You don't have the charisma to pull this off, and bluff isn't a class skill. But Bluff is overall a better skill than Intimidate, which also isn't a class skill. Picking up a trait to make it a class skill would probably make this GREEN, although Hyde doesn't want to be small.
Well Prepared (MB/MH) A once a day "Get out of Jail Free" card for mundane items is pretty amazing. While it doesn't age perfectly, Sleight of Hand is a class skill and you're mostly a dex based class. This gets better the more clever you are, and if you're an alchemist you probably know how to be clever. This is lower for Hyde since they're far less likely to be a Halfling.

Ultimate Magic
Antagonize (MB/MH) Pre errata, this was broke. Post errata, this is insane for your more tank like Alchemist. While it can't affect dumber creatures, forcing someone into melee to attack you (especially if you're a range monster) is a huge boost. The check isn't too hard to make either, so try not to tank Charisma too much.
Die for your Master (MB/MH) If you didn't have to pay for another one, this would be purple. Saving yourself from death is worth it though, and is the main reason to take a Tumor Familiar.
Eldritch Heritage, Improved, Greater (MB/MH) There's so many options here, you're sure to find one that you can use (Abyssal comes to mind for Hyde.) While Skill Focus is a crappy prereq, for a Half Elf this is golden if you can somehow meet the 13 cha prerequisite.
Implant Bomb (MB/MH) This is another discovery that can be brutal the more creative you are. While you can't land a direct hit with this, combo this with Explosive Bomb and you can have a stealth bomber enter a location and detonate it for maximum impact.
Learn Ranger Trap, Trapper's Set Up (MB/MH) Another creative feat, but less useful overall. It seems more like a bomber thing to trap someone, but Hyde would be too busy destroying lives to bother with things like that.
Planar Preservationist (MB/MH) For a Preservationist, you're getting way better creatures here. This is a great way to increase your versatility, and is really the main thing that makes the archetype worth taking.
Remote Bomb (MB/MH) Another cool ability, being able to leave a few bombs around your opponent to set up for an attack could make for an enjoyable encounter (especially with bombs that hamper terrain like Grease Bomb.)
Ricochet Splash Weapon (MB/MH) I'm assuming you still get the effects of a direct hit. The only thing keeping this lower is the randomness of where the missed weapon could land. But for your bomber, any chance to score a direct hit is worth taking.

Ultimate Combat
Adder Strike (MB/MH) Poisoning things is not good form, and you have this as a class feature (which you probably traded away for something decent), so leave this serpent alone.
Cleaving Finish, Greater (MB/MH) For a range monster like C. Hyde, this can be a very strong strategy, especially with Lunge adding 5 more feat to that death radius of yours.
Close Quarters Thrower (MB/MH) The prereqs are awful, but preventing damage is a worthwhile end goal.
Clustered Shots (MB/MH) For the more archery minded Alchemist, if you're busy using Manyshot/Rapidshot, this is a way to keep DR from making you obsolete.
Death From Above (MB/MH) Finding ways to fly isn't hard for you, and for B. Hyde, starting off with a +5 to all attacks landing sneak will probably kill most level appropriate encounters.
Death or Glory (MB/MH) And here we get a standard action attack (not good) that only works against larger opponents (hint: you should be the large one) that gives +4 to attack and damage (decent) and gives them an immediate action to attack you back with THE SAME BONUSES (NO!) I get that this was made to help Vital Strike suck less, but there's no situation this will be good unless you're facing large wizards who are also stupid.
Deceptive Exchange (MB/MH) This specifically calls an alchemist out for Delay Bomb, and it's a very flavorful ability. While you could us this to force a bomb into your opponent's hand and throw another, you could also just Fast Bomb. But this comes up first, so it gets a slight pass as the first way to get more than one bomb a round, but it's rife for a retrain.
Distance Thrower (MB/MH) 20 feet isn't a lot, so adding some distance to that might save your life.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearm (MB/MH) This is separate from others, as I wanted to talk about it a bit. Guns really keep up with your touch attack theme, have about the same range, and can be used with all your fun ranged feats. If you're not picking up a bow, consider picking up a gun instead.
Felling Smash (MB/MH) Assuming you're not using your swift action to Arcane Strike, a free trip attempt per round is pretty amazing for C. Hyde.
Flanking Foil (MB/MH) The big seller here is stopping sneak attack, which if that's an issue, gets better. A little campaign specific, but even causing someone a -2 on rolls from not flanking can be decent.
Hammer the Gap (MB/MH) All those fast bombs are getting extra to hit and damage, and if your Hyde managed to snake out any extra natural attacks, they'll also be hitting harder and more often. While not great for C. Hyde, everyone else who manages to load on attacks will love this (archers included.)
Landing Roll (MB/MH) While it uses Mobility, if you're getting tripped and you know you can get out of the threatened range of your opponent, this has its uses. Hopefully you're not getting tripped enough for it to matter though.
Moonlight Stalker, Feign, Master (MB/MH) If you take a trait to get Bluff as a class skill and have a decent way to gain concealment (Tiefling Darkness SLA), the feigning and damage will become a lot more deadly, especially for B. Hyde.
Opening Volley (MB/MH) For C. Hyde, starting off with a bomb of choice and then leading in with a big attack is a very solid strategy, add a charge into the mix to make sure you land that first melee attack.
Quick Dirty Trick (MB/MH) Dirty Trick is amazing, and being able to make your first attack BLINDING your opponent makes B. Hyde's sneak attack guaranteed to hit. If you went the Dirty Trick Route, this is when you're getting a return on that investment.
Snap Shot, Improved, Greater (MB/MH) While you can't do this with bombs (Maybe Delay Bombs?), for some of you, this is a solid choice, especially if you're already taking an archery/gun path.
Stalwart, Improved (MB/MH) Yet another Diehard feat, this one is actually pretty solid. DR/- is valuable, and for C. Hyde who already took Combat Expertise to start tripping, this is your first way to actually start using it. DR 10/- is worth a feat if you're in the middle of the fray.

Style Feats: Only two sets of style feats will be reviewed, since most of them don't matter or are generally unhelpful to the build.
Crane Style, Wing, Riposte (MB/MH) With the recent errata to Crane Wing (GARBAGE), this is no longer a viable option, and a complete waste of time.
Kirin Style, Strike, Path (MB/MH) The amount of actions this takes to get going is way too much of an investment, you'd be better off using your rounds to do something more immediately advantageous.

Other Sources
Ability Focus (MB/MH) If you're allowed to, this is a very nice ability to pick for your bombs, as raising the saves of your most potent abilities is going to end a lot more battles.
Cornugon Smash (MB/MH) That's right, a FREE action demoralize PER hit. This is how you scare people, Mr. Hyde.
Dampen Presence (MB/MH) These were two abilities you had no defense against before, and now you do. You have ways to deal with scent as well as tremorsense, so enjoy your viable stealth character now, especially with Hellcat Stealth
Extra Feature (MB/MH) The benefits of an extra feature from shifting as a Skinwalker are hard to pass up with how varied and powerful they are.
Hellcat Stealth (MB/MH) It's incredibly easy for you to get your stealth check up, so the -10 isn't going to break this for you, and it's Hide in Plain Sight for a feat.
Splash Weapon Mastery (MB/MH) More an issue for bombers, this will lessen your penalties for throwing at a distance as well as give you a bit more control of where your misses go.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:04 PM

6. Extracts
"Sure the gods blessed me with this devil's blood, but why should I stop there? By the time I'm done, my body will be a work of art, and everyone will be my spectator!" Drake Exle, graduate of the Arcanium and part time assassin

1st Level
Abjuring Step (MB/MH) While your baseliner can use this time to hand out buffs, the more proactive Alchemist aren't going to waste a turn not destroying something.
Ant Haul (MB/MH) This is an extract that would get better with time, if eventually you weren't picking up a Handy Haversack.
Anticipate Peril (MB/MH) While the duration isn't great, if you know you're going into a situation where you're going to need to act first, a +5 to initiative is going to make sure you do.
Blend (MB/MH) This is a poor man's Vanish, and it's Elf only. Good for a Substitute Rogue however, as the duration is pretty nice.
Bomber's Eye (MB/MH) A standard action to do JUST this? You don't need an attack bonus, so save this for when you're combing extracts.
Comprehend Languages (MB/MH) While not an extract you take at first level, this ages well. Having it in your formula book is a good idea for one of your empty slots to make sure you can pop this out when it counts.
Crafter's Fortune (MB/MH) This is basically an off day extract, something you use when you're not adventuring to get a craft check buff.
Cure Light Wounds (MB/MH) Prepare one just in case of incombat emergencies, and if you have any empty slots left at the end of the day, dump them out with this.
Detect Secret Doors (MB/MH) This is such a lame extract, and it has a lame duration. If it were hours per level, at least you could do something with it.
Detect Undead (MB/MH) This should not be a hard thing to do without magic, and most things that would try to disguise it are using magic to trick you.
Disguise Self (MB/MH) Decent duration, and a good Substitute Rogue extract, throw it on if you think you'll need it.
Endure Elements (MB/MH) When you need it, this is fantastic. The only problem is that if you need it, probably everyone else does too, so as you level up leave some open slots for this.
Enlarge Person (MB/MH) There is no reason Hyde doesn't want to be large. Increased damage, reach, and strength are all within his grasp. Consider making this permanent later in your career.
Expeditious Retreat (MB/MH) A short duration speed boost isn't great, although a regular Alchemist can get a bit more value out of it.
Illusion of Calm (MB/MH) Seeing as this can only break on a hit from an opponent, you can get some mileage out of this. A lot of stuff you do can provoke, so this is basically Mobility on steroids.
Identify (MB/MH) A good buff if you HAVE to know if something is cursed, but another off day extract if I ever saw one.
Jump (MB/MH) As much as I think I shouldn't like this, I do. Maybe it's just the visual of lifting off and hucking a bomb from orbit. It tops out at a +30 too, which for a first level extract is some nice staying power.
Keen Senses (MB/MH) The duration of this one kills it, it doesn't last long enough to even be a decent scouting extract.
Longshot (MB/MH) Less specific than Bomber's Eye but with no attack bonus, this still doesn't justify a standard action.
Negate Aroma (MB/MH) One of the best ways to ruin a stealth character's day is by scent. This removes that option, and for an hour a level. For a Substitute Rogue, this is what you've been hoping for and more.
Polypurpose Panacea (MB/MH) Just barely enough utility to sneak away from being horrible, most of these are okay at best.
Reduce Person (MB/MH) The bomber's inverse to Enlarge Person, this isn't as vital to them. An AC bonus, a stealth bonus, and an attack bonus from one extract, although Alchemist who were already small lose their 5 foot reach, so this is a bomber priority.
See Alignment (MB/MH) With a duration that's hard to find useful, this is really just to snake out of someone's a jerk.
Shield (MB/MH) A +4 AC for minutes a level isn't terrible, but it's a better combined extract.
Shock Shield (MB/MH) For when Shield is just too helpful, here's another that's dangerous to use with a lower AC bonus.
Stone Fist (MB/MH) You should always have a weapon ready to you, so using a standard action to make one is just depressing.
Targeted Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) A great extract to make your bombs last longer, especially against a boss since it lacks splash damage. Doubling your intelligence mod won't cause a huge amount extra damage at first, but it is a flat damage bonus that didn't require using another bomb.
Touch of the Sea (MB/MH) Another extract where you either really need it, or it'll never matter.
True Strike (MB/MH) I'll admit I'm overrating this a bit, but it's a guaranteed hit, which can be use for C. Hyde going for a trip, or your bomber using a Targeted Bomb Admixture. Much better as a combined extract.
Vocal Alteration (MB/MH) While a nice combo with Disguise Self, it would be better if it had the same duration too. Still, it's another great extract for your Substitute Rogue.
Youthful Appearance (MB/MH) The only thing that's great about this extract is its duration. It's another disguising extract, although less good unless you started off ancient since you still look like you.
2nd Level
Ablative Barrier (MB/MH) The duration of this is enough so that you can put it on at the beginning of the day and forget about it, and the damage conversion keeps multiple blows from killing you, leaving you unconscious instead. Also amusingly, there's no limit to the damage that can be negated if it's non lethal, so go get in a fist fight for the hell of it.
Acute Senses (MB/MH) While the duration could be better, +10 to the best stat in the game is a scout's dream, and it continues to age well up to 16th level giving you a +30.
Aid (MB/MH) For me the main selling point of this extract is the temp hit points, although the attack bonus is nice. Still, anything that puts a barrier between you and death is worth some consideration.
Alchemical Allocation (MB/MH) Look at this extract, it will one day become the ONLY level two extract you prepare. Because of this extract, it's worth it to invest in high caster level potions and elixirs. It trades a second level extract for any potion or elixir in the game. Did someone say potion of Greater Magic Fang at CL 20?
Alter Self (MB/MH) This is mostly to snag a useful ability like scent or darkvision 60 ft, but gives you a minor stat buff too to either dexterity or strength, and lets you change how you look. Decent amount of utility in this extract, but the duration is a little short for my taste.
Animal Aspect (MB/MH) This is good for a short duration climb or swim speed, but not a lot else.
Ant Haul, Communal (MB/MH) How does this even work being an extract? Whatever it doesn't matter, this still isn't worth it.
Barkskin (MB/MH) While you probably don't want to take this right away, this is a moderate length buff that should raise your ability to survive (and looking at Mutagen, it should stack) by a large amount.
Bear's Endurance (MB/MH) Constitution is probably the least valuable of your physical stats, but throwing 2+ HP per level onto Hyde will help give him some staying power.
Bestow Weapon Proficiency (MB/MH) No. This is horrible, it might be okay as a first level extract, but minute per level sealed the door shut on this extract.
Blood Transcription (MB/MH) This is just a bit too situation (and creepy). It'd be better if you didn't have to pay for scribing, but if you face a decent amount of arcane (and some divine, you do steal from them a bit), this goes up.
Blistering Invective (MB/MH) Hyde was probably going to scare people anyways, so getting to do so in a 30 foot burst as well as do fire damage is both very useful and thematically awesome.
Blur (MB/MH) Being up in melee, you need all the miss chances you can get. 20% isn't game breaking, but that's a fifth of attacks not hitting you.
Bullet Shield (MB/MH) Thankfully, it's not just bullets but all ranged attacks. I personally like Shield more, but this is situationally better...just not enough to validate taking it.
Bull's Strength (MB/MH) Any Hyde would love a buff to damage and attack, but bombers can give this a pass.
Cat's Grace (MB/MH) Adding to your AC, reflex, and ranged attacks is nice, but unless you're going AOMF (Agile), it won't be adding to your damage, which is something you want to keep doing as much as you can.
Certain Grip (MB/MH) A very boring list of bonuses lead to a lackluster extract.
Cure Moderate Wounds (MB/MH) You're quickly being outpaced by dedicated healers, so extract slots should be kept away from theses. Keep pumping out lower level ones and you'll be fine.
Darkvision (MB/MH) If you don't have Darkvision, TAKE THIS. It's an hour a level, which is the correct duration for this to be useful. Don't scout without it.
Deathwine (MB/MH) You don't cast spells, and even if you did, this is a hell of a cost for a CL boost.
Defensive Shock (MB/MH) Rather than using extracts to do something after getting hit, why don't we use them to avoid getting hit instead?
Delay Poison (MB/MH) If you can get it to someone fast enough, keeping them from making saves could save their life, even if it is a bit situational.
Detect Thoughts (MB/MH) Another solid scouting ability, letting you see if there's anyone behind a door (as long as it's not too thick) can serve as an early detection method.
Eagle's Splendor (MB/MH) The least vital stat in the game, this will rarely ever be valuable.
Elemental Touch (MB/MH) The rather nice suite of debuffs make this a solid choice for B. Hyde, but most others probably don't want to be in range to use it.
False Life (MB/MH) The duration of this is what makes it worth taking, as you can basically down it at the beginning of the day and forget about it.
Fire Breath (MB/MH) You already do AOE in a better and safer spread, live out your dragon fantasies some other way.
Fire Sneeze (MB/MH) Limiting your actions to do weak fire damage? Not likely.
Fox's Cunning (MB/MH) This extract is basically +2 to damage and save DC for you bombs, take some time and enjoy that fact.
Ghostly Disguise (MB/MH) This extract is actually great if you're trying to scare a group of kids and their talking dog away from your haunted amusement park.
Invisibility (MB/MH) You don't need a guide to know this is good, it's invisibility. That's literally all you need to know about this extract.
Kinetic Reverberation (MB/MH) Short duration and unable to affect natural weapons take this a step down, or else it would be too good.
Levitate (MB/MH) If you can't wait to fly, here's a weaker substitute. The attack penalties for moving are rather annoying though, but for bombers it'll be less of an issue.
Owl's Wisdom (MB/MH) This doesn't help your offenses, nor anyone else's. Remember, you could be casting Bull's Strength instead of this.
Perceive Clues (MB/MH) Didn't we get a more powerful (but shorter duration) extract than this earlier that scaled with level? We did? Oh good, then forget this.
Protection from Arrows (MB/MH) Most ranged attacks you'll be facing at this level won't be magical, so this is some nice DR.
Resist Energy (MB/MH) This is a really great way to resist elemental damage, as well as basically make yourself or others immune to your splash damage.
Lesser Restoration (MB/MH) Healing ability damage ASAP is nice to keep the party in full functioning order, specially if you're prone to it (say by abusing cognatogens...)
See Invisibility (MB/MH) This is always an extract you'll feel safer about having in your back pocket, unless you're playing in a ninja campaign, in which point prepare it everyday.
Shadow Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but I'm giving my opponent's concealment...to get concealment from them? That's...that's weird and bad.
Skinsend (MB/MH) First, ew. Second of all, this is a surprisingly long duration scouting extract, but also VERY dangerous to use. You either need to be very brave or methodical to use this to its fullest, and I really feel like there's better non horrible ways to scout than sending your skin off into the world.
Spider Climb (MB/MH) Solid extract to enhance your mobility, this could prove useful in scouting or combat.
Tattoo Potion (MB/MH) Costly and uses your chest slot? That's a combination you want to avoid, so give this bad ink a rest.
Touch Injection (MB/MH) Being able to apply an extract for the cost of a touch attack can really help your action economy. Some of the best uses of this however are on opponents, as you can do some serious damage with a no save Skinsend.
Transmute Potion to Poison (MB/MH) The saves the the poison are insultingly low, you're wasting a potion, and probably a decent amount of money. Who would do that?
Undetectable Alignment (MB/MH) This does just what it says it does, and for 24 hours too. It's not a great effect, but the duration really sells it for making sure no one can see your cards.
Water of Madness (MB/MH) While I'm not a huge fan of the cost, it guarantees sickening for 1d4 rounds, which is nice. Failing the save does some dexterity and intelligence damage too, which depending on what you're fighting (an animal) could take it out of the fight. You can save these as well, which makes them more useful, but still costly.
Vomit Swarm (MB/MH) Forcing two saves (one for poison, one for distraction) for a few rounds is decent enough even if both saves are low, but this extract scales to keep it semi relevant.

3rd Level
Absorb Toxicity (MB/MH) I feel like the main draw of this is the poison and disease for a moderate duration. Both poison and disease aren't great to pass on though, so just use this for the immunities, especially if you traded them away.
Absorbing Touch (MB/MH) Being unable to use this on magical items hurts, but the duration is golden. This is another extract that gets better the more clever you are.
Age Resistance, Lesser (MB/MH) Unless you decided to start off middle age, this is worthless. The duration is great, but if you really want this ability, just take it as an Aasimar racial feature.
Amplify Elixir (MB/MH) For a potion junkie like you, this holds value for a long time.
Animal Aspect, Greater (MB/MH) One of these wasn't worth an extract, two isn't enough for an upgrade.
Arcane Sight (MB/MH) The duration makes this a bit less useful, but this is the kind of thing you should just get made permanent.
Beast Shape I (MB/MH) This extract has a lot of versatility to it, but little of it is in combat. Wait till next level for that.
Bloodhound (MB/MH) Scent is getting less and less useful, but the duration keeps this one viable.
Burrow (MB/MH) Another great scouting extract with short duration, the lack of being able to breathe down there knocks this down a notch (this problem could be solved with Air Crystals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Air-Crystals).)
Burst of Speed (MB/MH) While I'm not sure if there's a "swift drink" or if it's still a standard (I'd rule it a swift action to make this not worthless) a speed boost isn't incredible. But the AOO avoidance is pretty nice for positioning yourself, as well as getting out of your opponent's melee range if you're a bomber.
Countless Eyes (MB/MH) A great duration on this as well as all around vision aren't bad, even if it is kind of gross.
Cure Serious Wounds (MB/MH) Nothing here is worth it, keep on belting out lower level cure extracts.
Darkvision, Delay Poison, Endure Elements, Protection From Arrows,Resist Energy, Spider Climb Communal (MB/MH) These are extractss that your party will probably need as a group, so you can splurge a level higher to avoid using multiple lower level extracts.
Displacement (MB/MH) A 50% miss chance is amazing, although the duration makes this an incombat buff only. Still, for your tanks this is a crazy good defense.
Draconic Reservoir (MB/MH) Nothing here makes it better than Protection from Energy, and most things that do a damage type also resist (or are immune to) it, so the secondary benefit won't really apply that often.
Elemental Aura (MB/MH) While the duration limits this to an incombat buff, targeting reflex helps this out a lot. The damage is okay, but the possible debuff is what makes this a viable combat extract.
Eruptive Pustules (MB/MH) I'm not a fan of extractss that require you to take damage to work, and there's better ways to sicken an opponent.
Fly (MB/MH) You wanna fly? Like a bird? BAM!
Gaseous Form (MB/MH) This is a great getaway extract, basically just an emergency extract.
Haste (MB/MH) For anyone else, this would be PURPLE, but as it's only a single target ability for you, it's not. An extra attack, AC bonus, and speed bonus is still worth a lot though.
Heroism (MB/MH) B. Hyde likes this a bit more, since he's swinging so much. The save bonus is what sells it for me, as well as the considerable duration.
Lightning Lash Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) Extra damage for when an opponent moves? Nothing is worth modifying your bomb here.
Marionette Possession (MB/MH) See that line where they have to be willing? That removes most use from this extract.
Monstrous Physique I (MB/MH) Again, the duration isn't great, but there's some pretty optimal forms (gargoyle) that give you lots of options for combat.
Nondetection (MB/MH) This is literally an extract that does what it advertises, and how useful it is just happens to be based on your game. It has a material component, but 50 GP is chump change at this level.
Orchid's Drop (MB/MH) I would really like this if it didn't have a price tag, but the cost isn't worth it.
Protection from Energy (MB/MH) This is generally better than Resist Energy if you expect to be overwhelmed by an energy type. I generally like the former, but if you need to be flat out immune to a damage type, this is a far better extract for it.
Rage (MB/MH) Basically any buffing extract will be better than this.
Remove Blindness/Deafness, Curse, Disease (MB/MH) These are both very situational debuffs, so save the space in your formulae book for something more versatile.
Resinous Skin (MB/MH) Piercing isn't as common as slashing or bludgeoning, so this is a pretty long duration defensive buff. Although the other benefit isn't as useful.
Seek Thoughts (MB/MH) This is a decent upgrade to Detect Thoughts, another solid infiltration ability.
Thorn Body (MB/MH) The damage this causes is actually appreciable, as well as giving B. Hyde a nice damage boost for his natural weapons. This is probably the only extract I like that requires an opponent to hit you, although the poor duration hurts.
Tongues (MB/MH) I like this as a rainy day extract for when it really matters, but it won't matter enough to take it.
Undead Anatomy (MB/MH) I don't really care for this in response to Monstrous Physique I, although giving claws and and a bite is pretty good. The duration isn't long enough to want to use an extract on it though.
Water Breathing (MB/MH) This would be lower, but a great duration as well as built in communal really pushes this into a good place extract wise.
4th Level
Age Resistance (MB/MH) Still terrible, not worth it.
Air Walk Communal (MB/MH) Oddly, you get this and Air Walk at the same level, so just take this instead since it's more versatile. It's basically a longer duration yet more restrictive fly extract.
Arcane Eye (MB/MH) The next stage of scouting, Substitute Rogues continue to get such wonderful toys.
Beast Shape II (MB/MH) Hey, here's pounce. Pounce is great. This is a strong package for B. Hyde, and versatile in forms you can take for everything else.
Cure Critical Wounds (MB/MH) Still not worth it, leave it alone.
Darkvision, Greater (MB/MH) The increased range isn't worth the increased level of extract.
Death Ward (MB/MH) While this is a solid defensive ability, a short duration means you'll be throwing this on before you head out to fight level drainers.
Detonate (MB/MH) Material components for an extract that hurts you? No.
Discern Lies (MB/MH) This is very short duration, and Seek Thoughts seems like it could do a better job of playing mind spy.
Dragon's Breath (MB/MH) Everyone but B. Hyde can already do good elemental damage, this is superfluous.
Echolocation (MB/MH) Wow, Blindsight is amazing. This is a decent duration on it too, making it a perfect scouting extract, as well as impossible to sneak up on in melee since it's a 40 foot range.
Elemental Body I (MB/MH) It's versatile, but you're not getting anything you didn't already have.
False Life, Greater (MB/MH) I'd rather just prepare the lesser version twice.
Fire Shield (MB/MH) The duration for this is terrible, and and you have better extracts that punish attackers.
Fluid Form (MB/MH) A reach increase of 10 feet? C. Hyde NEEDS this. He can basically attack everyone in any fight.
Freedom of Movement (MB/MH) Getting out of almost any jam is worth an extract.
Invisibility, Greater (MB/MH) Any Hyde would love always striking at a flat footed foe, especially B. Hyde.
Monstrous Physique II (MB/MH) While I can't find any with pounce yet (Although by this time, your beastmorph will have it naturally), there are some very powerful forms here that Hyde can use to destroy opponents.
Mutagenic Touch (MB/MH) Don't use this on a friend, the real joy of this is transfering it (without a save) to an opponent to inflict a very long duration confusion on them as well as crippling a mental stat of your choice (most likely intelligence, although dropping someone's wisdom by 4 or more could set them up for a nasty will save.)
Neutralize Poison (MB/MH) This doesn't age well at all, and by the time you get it, it's pretty outdated.
Restoration (MB/MH) This is a good bandage to have, as level loss and ability drain can really cripple a party member.
Spell Immunity (MB/MH) The definition of situational, this is either invaluable or worthless, depending on how much you know about your opponent. Although it's good if you know your enemy has Spell Perfection on a certain level 4 or lower spell.
Stoneskin (MB/MH) A lot of people harp on the cost here, but by this level it's not too much as long as you don't go throwing it around.
Touch of Slime (MB/MH) If it wasn't so easy to remove, this would be higher, as constitution damage shuts things down hard. But even then, it's not a lot of constitution damage, so leave it alone.
Tongues, Communal (MB/MH) This was never what you wanted, leave tongues out of your formulae book.
Universal Formula (MB/MH) A material component and having it be one that you know limits its usefulness. It's a lifesaver if you have a large formulae book, but since you only need a minute to prepare an empty slot, leave this alone.
Vermin Shape I (MB/MH) Other different effects are giving you better bonuses than this, so it's really hard to tell you to turn into a bee.
Viper Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) This is the first good one we've gotten in a while. Extra damage plus poisoning isn't bad, but again lots of things are getting immune to it by now, and you can't use Celestial Poisons on this.
Vitriolic Mist (MB/MH) Fire Shield that works on a more rare damage type? Awesome, maybe we can get one for sonic damage next!
5th Level
Age Resistance, Greater (MB/MH) Finally, the last one. Be gone with ye, and never return!
Ancestral Memory (MB/MH) There's better divination effects, but I'm used to GMs who hate having divinations sprung on them. If you have a more generous DM, this goes up a bit.
Beast Shape III (MB/MH) Huge creatures are nice, and magical beast have a decent range of abilities you can exploit.
Contact Other Plane (MB/MH) I like this a lot more as a divination extract, even with the risk it entails.
Delayed Consumption (MB/MH) Days per level mean that this probably won't even cut into your extracts per day, and an immediate action extract use is undeniably useful, even with the fourth level cap on it.
Dream (MB/MH) You have better ways to communicate with people, and while they're awake too.
Dust Form (MB/MH) The short duration removes this from being too useful, but your magic attacks still do full damage, and you've got nice mobility.
Elemental Body II (MB/MH) You have better things to transform into, elemental forms just aren't as good.
Elude Time (MB/MH) I feel like there's something I'm missing that makes this good, but I can't think of it. If anyone knows of a good use for this extract, let me know.
Languid Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) Fatigued? Really? As a fifth level extract?
Magic Jar (MB/MH) This is a great spell for Wizards, and being able to pass it to party members makes it even better.
Monstrous Physique III (MB/MH) The number of huge and diminutive monstrous humanoids is pretty small, so just stick with the second form of this extract unless there was an ability not on the list for it.
Nightmare (MB/MH) Stop bothering people in their sleep! This only really works if you have a spellcaster enemy you can mess with, and even then, if they're important they'll probably have some defense against this as well as a high will save.
Overland Flight (MB/MH) Walking is for mundanes, you are a king of the sky!
Planar Adaptation (MB/MH) You're getting to a point where this might be an issue, and always having air as well as keeping cool on the Plane of Fire is worth a slot if you know it's coming up.
Plant Shape I (MB/MH) Have you ever wanted to be a plant?...really? You must have had a dull childhood there, kid.
Polymorph (MB/MH) You have everything you'd want to emulate with this extract, and you can pass off those buffs to teammates.
Resurgent Transformation (MB/MH) While this seems like a cool idea, most of the stat bonuses will probably not apply if you've been keeping up with your magic items, the healing isn't enough, and it has one hell of a side effect, especially if used twice per day. It'd be okay if the bonuses weren't enhancement though, though the duration is nice.
Sending (MB/MH) Now this is how you communicate over long distances, and since I don't think it takes you 10 mins to drink, should be a very fast way to let someone know how you're doing.
Spell Resistance (MB/MH) Way too much of a double edged sword, although not as bad as normal spell resistance since it doesn't last too long.
Stoneskin, Communal (MB/MH) The cost is negligible at this point, and the duration probably wasn't limiting it at all, so feel free to turn your friends into The Thing too.
Undead Anatomy II (MB/MH) Are there undead with pounce? Zombie lions? Blood Drain is a nice inclusion, but other forms are making you huge now, stick with those.
Vermin Shape II (MB/MH) Tremorsense is nice, but vermin aren't a widely enjoyed creature type.
6th Level
Analyze Dweomer (MB/MH) Feels kinda sad to end off your career with something so tame, but getting a magnifying glass on all magic items could save you time and other complications. Situation, but useful.
Beast Form IV (MB/MH) Large magical beast are sweet, and you basically get everything they do. Find something you used to fight, and become it.
Caging Bomb Admixture (MB/MH) Start strong, end strong. This is basically 3.5 Force Cage, but with a far shorter duration. But there's NO saving throw to it that I can find, so this auto locks a non teleporting opponent for minimum 16 rounds. That's...I love this.
Elemental Body III (MB/MH) This looks reeeeally boring next to some of the other stuff we're getting.
Eyebite (MB/MH) At this level, it's a swift action to attempt to sicken someone. No one is proud of you, Eyebite.
Form of the Dragon I (MB/MH) No bombs (much like other forms) medium size, and a subpar breath weapon all lead this to a terrible place. It seems like it'd be cool to transform into a dragon, but we have another classic monster who's going to pop up soon...
Giant Form I (MB/MH) You don't lose your gear, you get regeneration as well as rend, and you're large sized. Long live the troll!
Heal (MB/MH) The best way to heal in combat, this is also able to remove a ton of debuffs. This is the apex of the curing arts, be thankful that you have it in your grasp.
Mislead (MB/MH) This would be lower, but it's really the only illusion you get, so take it if that's your sort of thing.
Monstrous Physique IV (MB/MH) This topped out last level, just stick with II or III.
Plant Shape II (MB/MH) Fool your friends into thinking you're a plant for the low investment of 16 levels in Alchemist!
Shadow Walk (MB/MH) This is your poor man's teleport, and one of your few mass transit extracts.
Statue (MB/MH) I feel like this has some use, but at base it's just so dumb. Skip pretending to be a statue, it's not a good use of being awesome.
Transformation (MB/MH) While it's this low, it's a bonus attack and a +4 to hit, as well as some moderate enhancement bonuses (which you probably already have sadly), but doesn't stop you from doing anything. Feel free to bump this up if the extra attack and bonus to hit is something you need.
True Sight (MB/MH) Negating most illusions is basically the best way to hit more, since most of those miss chances your opponents have are based on screwing with your perception.
Twin Form (MB/MH) Doubling your HP as well as your tactical prescience is amazing, and by now you should be a master of making copies of yourself.
Undead Anatomy (MB/MH) This isn't actually horrible, just horrible compared to your other options.
Walk Through Space (MB/MH) This is a good way to avoid hindering terrain. So is flying, and that has a much better duration. A cool visual, but incredibly short duration makes this a lame in combat extract to use.
Wind Walk (MB/MH) Your other mass transit extract this level, this is the safer although slower way to traverse the world. Both are useful in their own ways, so take the one you feel better meets your travel requirements...or just take both, and always be ready

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:05 PM

7. Archetypes, Prestige Classes, and Multiclassing
"One throws bombs, another turns into a damn monster, and the last one came at me with an army of skeletons! You mean to tell me all those bastards came from the same school?!" -Penance Nox, former cultist of Asmodeus

Archetypes
Unlike some of the other classes, the Alchemist has a bit of an issue with archetypes, in that some have effects that don't come into play right away. The issue with this is that they still lose something (Bomb damage, progression, etc) before giving you anything in return. So if an archetype would remove something before giving you a benefit (such as the Level Requirement of Clone Master which is 7th) it will have a Level Requirement in which you are first compensated for this loss. If your game isn't starting at that level or soon to reach it, you may wish to avoid that archetype.

Each feature of the archetype will be reviewed against the archetype as a whole as well as what is given up in response as to better inform you of what works together and what doesn't. The level that each exchange will also be shown in to better help you decide which archetype is for you and your starting level, in case you don't want to be stuck waiting for something fun to do. This will only list the level that you receive the ability, not any increases it may receive at later levels. I may also include a list of stackable archetypes later, possibly with different ratings, but they won't be given full reviews like each archetype will be given separately.

Non Racial Archetypes
Beastmorph (MB/MH)
3rd Beastmorph Mutagen (MB/MH) Scent, Darkvision 60, and Swim 30 are the real prices out of this swap.
6th Improved Beastmorph Mutagen (MB/MH) You've got flight now at a far longer duration (but a little worse maneuverability and speed) than the spell without using another resource.
10th Greater Beastmorph Mutagen (MB/MH) Pounce is what you want, and now you have it! Hell, throw a few other things onto this like Trip and Scent, you're basically the apex predator.
14th Grand Beastmorph Mutagen (MB/MH) While losing Persistent Mutagen hurts hard, I'm sure Blindsense 30 feet, Ferocity, and everything else will make you feel better.

Blazing Torchbearer (MB/MH)
1st Everburning Flame (MB/MH) You lost Brew Potion for this? Wow, nice 75 gold item you got there.
2nd Intense Light (MB/MH) And it's brighter too! Gee Willikers! I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Poison Use.
4th Explosive Torch (MB/MH) HAAHAHHAHAAHAHHAA! YOU CAN SET YOURSELF ON FIRE IF YOU DON'T USE IT IN 1D4 ROUNDS?! AND IT TAKES A STANDARD ACTION TO USE?! FOR 2D6 EXTRA DAMAGE?! YOU LOST A DISCOVERY TO DO IT TOO! HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Chirurgeon (MB/MH)
2nd Infused Curative (MB/MH) Getting your cure extracts as auto infusions is nice, but if you like helping the party, you probably already took Infusion.
5th Anesthetic (MB/MH) A free meh feat and some small ability aren't anything to write home about.
10th Power Over Death (MB/MH) A great extract to have in your book, in battle life saving is rarely a waste of time.

Clone Master (MB/MH) Level Requirement: 7th
1st Bomb (MB/MH) This is a decent hit to your bomber's damage, and it's best to be avoided for that playstyle.
7th Lesser Simulacrum (MB/MH) Just as useful as a discovery and a level earlier. Being an extract does make this better though, since it gives you a discovery to play around with.
8th Rebirth (MB/MH) Not having any other way to come back from the dead this early, it's a wise investment to make a clone just in case.
13th Simulacrum (MB/MH) While it's far more expensive than the discovery version, it's a level ahead and an extract, making it overall superior.
16th Clone (MB/MH) Couldn't you do this 8 levels ago? Or was that a one time thing?

Crypt Breaker (MB/MH)
1st Alkahest Bombs (MB/MH) Unless you're facing lots of these specific foes, this is an unneeded hit to your bomb's damage. At least pre errata, it did force damage.
1st Crypt Breaker's Draught (MB/MH) You have enough extracts that give you these abilities, you don't need to lose your Mutagen for something this lame.
1st Trapfinding (MB/MH) This is not worth losing Brew Potion for, not even close.
2nd Discoveries (MB/MH) Taking Rogue talents is beneath you.
14th Enhanced Alkahest (MB/MH) The bonus damage only applies to the same targets. This was not worth 14 levels.

Grenadier (MB/MH)
1st Martial Weapon Proficiency (MB/MH) Giving your Alchemist a longbow or horse chopper is very nice, although losing Brew Potion hurts (more so if your GM rules that you can't take it as a feat.) Goes down a bit if you have any of these as a racial weapon though.
2nd Alchemical Weapon (MB/MH) This starts off as great (and helps your action economy) and it gets amazing as soon as its a swift action. Especially once you can reliably make checks with your Hybridization Funnel, the items you modify your weapons with can really hamper foes, and there's a few that stay good during the entire game (I'll cover them in Items)
2nd Precise Bombs (MB/MH) You were probably going to take this anyways, so this just freed up a discovery slot for you in exchange for Poison Use.
6th Directed Blast (MB/MH) C. Hyde loves detonating bombs right next to him, while your bomber enjoys the versatility of another blast shape, all for the low price of losing Swift Poisoning.
10th Staggering Blast (MB/MH) Bombs don't crit often, even upping their range, so this probably won't factor in unless you're throwing out a ton.

Internal Alchemist (MB/MH)
1st Breath Mastery (MB/MH) This was not worth losing your amazing version of Throw Anything, and basically discounts this from a bomb build. These are all pretty situation excluding faking dead.
2nd Bonus Feats (MB/MH) None of these feats are worth a discovery.
3rd Disease Resistance (MB/MH) About as useful as being immune to poison, although it'll probably come up less.
6th Uncanny Dodge (MB/MH) It's hard to find a reason not to like this, but it doesn't save the archetype. Even lower if you can take the Defensive Strategist religion trait.

Mindchemist (MB/MH)
1st Cognatogen (MB/MH) A decent buff to your bomber's damage and DCs, but the stat damage really brings this one down. But for a dedicated bomber you should take every chance you get to stack bomb damage.
2nd Perfect Recall (MB/MH) It's not bad considering what you're losing, but you'll probably want to burn some traits on extra knowledge skills if you plan on really making this worthwhile. It basically gives a pseudo trained bonus on all knowledges (although you'll need at least one rank in them still to make most checks.)
2nd Bonus Feats (MB/MH) You're not taking these, even Rogues have better options than this, and they're your lesser.
2nd Languages (MB/MH) This can't be red enough, you will NEVER need languages more than Discoveries. Cry for the developer who thought this was a good idea.

Preservationist (MB/MH)
2nd Bottled Ally I (MB/MH) As an aside, you're taking Planar Preservationist, and this review is being made under the assumption that you did, as Summon Monster has a far better list. But this changes up your character to a summoner as well, although your curve is a bit choppier.
5th Bottled Ally II (MB/MH) While your standard action release of monsters is nice, this is behind where other summoners are.
8th Bottled Ally III (MB/MH) This is where you catch up again, and you're still not losing anything important.
10th Bottled Ally IV (MB/MH) Behind the curve again, but you're still not out anything incredible.
14th Bottle Ally V (MB/MH) Losing Persistent Mutagen hurts Hyde a bit, but you're back on track.
18th Bottled Ally VI (MB/MH) I don't like losing a Discovery, but this is a very nice level for summons, so have fun with it.

Psychonaut (MB/MH) Level Requirement: 5th
1st Bomb (MB/MH) This plus the reduction of bomb damage on two levels destroys this as an option for your bombers.
5th Precognition (MB/MH) A pretty useful Divination extract, although still nothing to justify the hit to your bombs.
8th Psychic Senses (MB/MH) Scrying takes center stage here, no longer needing a focus. Some nice spells, and you're not giving up anything too valuable.
10th Remote Consciousness (MB/MH) Another nice set of spells, lower level Sending with Telepathic Bond and Plane Shift really give the Alchemist things he wasn't capable of before.
15th Greater Precognition (MB/MH) While this is a lifesaver, your bomber can't afford to keep losing bomb damage like this.
17th Master Precognition (MB/MH) I feel like this spell should have a longer duration which bothers me about it, as is the somewhat vague wording. Another Bomb damage drop removes this from contention for your bomber though.

Ragechemist (MB/MH)
2nd Rage Mutagen (MB/MH) This is stupidly dangerous, and will is not a good save for you. The additional +2 does not validate making yourself a target. Still there's a good chance you'd have to fail 6-8 saves to go comatosed, so that's pretty unlikely. Just not worth the +1 to attack and damage rolls.
6th Sturdy Rage (MB/MH) We're getting to a point where a DC 15 will save isn't nearly as hard to make. But failing one basically guarantees that you'll fail the others, so this still isn't a good choice.
10th Lumbering Rage (MB/MH) Still too much risk for too little reward, just stay calm when you mutate. If you have to Rage, do it the right way and multiclass into Barbarian.

Reanimator (MB/MH) Level Requirement: 7th
1st Bomb (MB/MH) Another needless hit to Bomb damage die. So rarely is this ever validated by the class features.
7th Simple Reanimation (MB/MH) Undead are really low tier on the servant chain, especially considering you can make Simulacrums. Also way to kill bomb damage again.
13th Create Undead (MB/MH) The only benefit to either of these abilities is that you don't need to find a way to control them, but even that's not enough to bring this up from ANOTHER hit to Bomb damage.
15th Create Greater Undead (MB/MH) While there's some cool undead here, I'll stick with my Simulacrums that didn't destroy my Bomb progression.

Trap Breaker (MB/MH)
2nd Trapfinding (MB/MH) This isn't a bad ability for what you lose, and unlike Crypt Breaker, this is leading somewhere decent.
5th Explosive Disarm (MB/MH) While it's cool that this gives a Bomb a non combat option, your bomber can't waste a single one if it's not hitting someone. Other Alchemist can be a bit less stingy though.
6th Land Mine (MB/MH) This is a really cool ability, but the text doesn't state if a land mine that's been set for longer than one day still counts against your limit. Assuming it does, as well as the relatively low DC to find and disarm it and it requiring two uses of your Bombs, it's not game breaking. Still, it's quite a fun thing to do if you have bombs to spare, and it can be set up quickly, making it a great getaway plan, especially with a Grease Bomb or other hindering effects.
10th Mine Engineer (MB/MH) Giving your bombs even more use by not using all of them so fast, this is a very enjoyable archetype for C. Hydes who often find themselves with Bombs left over everyday.

Visionary Researcher (MB/MH)
1st Experimental Mutagen (MB/MH) There's no reason to make your Mutagen suck just to share it. Any second level spell is better than this, and even giving up Poison Use locks you out of a lot of far better archetypes. It's not terrible though, just nothing special.
3rd Acid Resistance (MB/MH) That's it? That's the whole archetype? This is orange for the same reason the last thing is; it bars you from taking better archetypes, which basically makes you break even if you weren't going to take an archetype. But honestly, you really should take one, as there's bound to be at least one that helps your concept out immensely.

Vivisectionist (MB/MH)
1st Sneak Attack (MB/MH) This is going unrated for your normal Alchemist and bombers because this doesn't apply to them. When you take this archetype, you lock yourself into either an odd C. Hyde build, or unlocking the true power of the B. Hyde role. This is what makes B. Hyde so brutal, as he has many different ways to get a flat footed opponent or set up flanks. This archetype is generally meant for natural attackers, and with Feral Mutagen at your clawed fingertips, we both know which one you'll be going with. Combining this with races that get natural weapons normally (Especially a Ragebred Skinwalker) allows you even more chances to land sneak attack per round. Many forms you can take with Beast Form or Monstrous Physique also augment your number of physical attacks, and stacking them is how you shred anything in your path into a bloody stain on the walls of your laboratory.
2nd Torturer's Eye (MB/MH) This is more just for flavor, the image of you scouting the battlefield to see whom to hunt next.
2nd Bleeding Attack (MB/MH) While you won't take this, the option is nice, and it's also thematic.
3rd Cruel Anatomist (MB/MH) Removing a wisdom based skill with an intelligence based one, and letting it do double duty? This should give you a reason to make Heal checks.
7th Torturous Transformation (MB/MH) More flavorful stuff, but this has more of a purpose with how you're able to modify animals. Creativity is the name of the game when playing God, so let loose.
10th Crippling Strike (MB/MH) This on the other hand is a talent worth taking, as the number of swings you should be making should leave most opponents nearly crippled in a round or two.

Racial Archetypes
Gippli Bogborn Alchemist (MB/MH)
1st Amphibious Mutagen (MB/MH) Getting the ability to swim which you could from other sources is not worth losing your version of Throw Anything.
2nd Discovery Options (MB/MH) This is a terrible discovery for anyone to take.

Half Elf Bramble Brewer (MB/MH)
1st Dendrite Mutagen (MB/MH) A more defensive Mutagen, what I really like about this is the fast healing that comes along with. That right there could be saving your life if you spend any amount of time in sunlight.
2nd Briar Bombs (MB/MH) Causing no damage as well as holding you back from picking up Feral Mutagen aren't great things for you to do, but it is a sold control ability aside from that.
20th Grand Discovery (MB/MH) About as useful as True Mutagen, but your healing is less specific, which makes it even more useful.

Svirfneblin Deep Bomber (MB/MH)
2nd Silent Bomb (MB/MH) This is a very nice stealth tool, and what you're losing is negligible.
3rd Targeting Bomb (MB/MH) Since this can be combined with other bombs, being able to remove opponent's ability to hide is rather choice, especially in the dark environments this Bomb is meant to work in.
6th Stoneskin (MB/MH) Tree shape isn't the main draw here, that'd be Meld With Stone. And it's easily worth giving up Swift Poisoning.

Goblin Fire Bomber (MB/MH)
1st Weapon and Armor Proficiency (MB/MH) It's not a great weapon, but it's free.
1st Fire Bombardier (MB/MH) Your bombers really like this, but the lack of variety this adds to your damage types makes you a predictable opponent.
2nd Bonus Feats (MB/MH) None of these are worth a discovery.
4th Fiery Cocktail (MB/MH) Basically a way to try and stretch your versatility, although it really doesn't do a great job, especially with the loss of DC for your bombs.
8th Fire Body (MB/MH) You're a bit ahead of the curve on Elemental Body spells, but seeing as it's limited to fire, this is pretty much.
10th Improved Fire Body (MB/MH) You're still faster on the Elemental Body extracts, but with the same problem as before.
14th Greater Fire Body (MB/MH) Another buff to your Elemental Body, but this isn't worth losing Persistent Mutagen.

Ratfolk Plague Bringer (MB/MH)
1st Plague Vial (MB/MH) Disease is far too slow to be effective in battle, and removing your mutagen is not a fair price for this ability.
2nd Disease Resistance (MB/MH) I would honestly expect this to come up less than poison, and it bars you from taking any archetype that also replaces these abilities.

Gnome Saboteur (MB/MH)
1st Class Skills (MB/MH) Either of these skills is as situational as the other, so no huge change here.
1st Chameleon Mutagen (MB/MH) Skill bonuses aren't worth a Mutagen, and even the climb speed doesn't validate a strength penalty.
2nd Saboteur Discoveries (MB/MH) For the sake of completion, I'm going to review each by itself, but as a whole these are not impressive.
Bore Bomb (MB/MH) How often does this come up in games? If it does, it's decent, but it's better for Hyde who can use his bombs for utility issues.
Complex Bomb (MB/MH) Since this doesn't specifically call out that it gives both secondary effects, just splitting damage is a lackluster effect.
Greater, Grand Chameleon Mutagen (MB/MH) This works for a Substitute Rogue, but really for no one else. Still, your bomber could always be more invisible.
20th Grand Discovery (MB/MH) Considering you need the discovery chain to get this far, this is not worth it, especially with how many things have True Sight by now.

Archetype Combinations
Before I continue, note that not a lot of archetypes actually combine, as most give up similar things. The most versatile of them all for this purpose is the Vivisectionist. It can combine with Beastmorph, Chirurgeon, Grenadier, Internal Alchemist, Mindchemist, Preservationist, Ragechemist. Of these, only one is truly of note.

Beastmorph/Vivisectionist (MB/MH) The Zenith of B. Hyde, this combination eventually leads you to possessing pounce, which is the last piece of the puzzle of which you've needed. If you have any urge to play the best possible B. Hyde you can, this is how you accomplish it.

Prestige Classes
A rather depressing note here is that there is only ONE prestige class that by rules continues your extract progression, as it specifically calls it out. It's the same one that progresses your bombs. I may look over some more later, but most prestige classes offer you little with this information, and the one that actually does...well, let me explain:

Master Chymist (MB/MH) This prestige class is at best a three level dip for Hyde, anyone else can skip over this. I'll be showing what you get for each of these levels so you can decide when you're done with this class.
1st Bomb-Thrower (MB/MH) While it doesn't explicitly stack with the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack, any rational GM should allow them to stack. It's nice to actually have something continue your bomb progression.
1st No Extract Progression (MB/MH) This is the only level of the three that doesn't have extract progression. 4th is the next level that loses it, which is the reason why this is only a three level dip.
1st Mutagenic Form (MB/MH) I can't really rate this, as it's straight flavor. Take this as you will.
1st Mutate 2/day (MB/MH) This is the reason you're taking the class. This is what Infuse Mutagen wishes it could be. This guarantees that you'll always have your Mutagen ready for combat.
2nd Advanced Mutagen (MB/MH) There is only two of these that I can suggest, and those are Growth Mutagen and Furious Mutagen. Growth Mutagen has a requirement of an effective Alchemist level of 16th for the same boost as Enlarge person, which simply saves you some time buffing before battles, while Furious increases your claw/bite damage a bit, but will stack with enlarging, which makes it a salvageable way to increase damage.
3rd Brutality +2 (MB/MH) I'd suggest having at least four natural attacks to make this a viable tactic, but even with three this isn't that shabby.

Multiclassing
Multiclassing is a very difficult thing for an Alchemist do, as lacking advancement for bombs and extracts really detracts from what you do. While it's a little easier for Hyde since he enjoys having his melee ability boosted, the toys you get from staying true to your Alchemist roots are hard to ignore. I'll be skipping over classes that have nothing to offer you, unless there's a need to warn you to stay away.

Core
Barbarian (MB/MH) This is a two level dip at best. What you're getting is weapon proficiencies, a slight speed boost, and (thankfully a free action to activate) Rage. If you stick in it for another level, you can pick up uncanny dodge and a rage power, but most of those aren't great. Lesser Fiend Totem can give you an extra natural attack for B. Hyde, and Intimidating Glare gives you a move action Intimidate check, but most good rage powers really aren't what you want here. No real archetypes to swap out for here, but unless you REALLY need the (short) buff Rage will give, skip this.
Cleric (MB/MH) Clerics are a one level dip to pick up some light spellcasting, weak healing, fort and will bonuses, and mostly domains (the medium armor proficiency isn't bad either.) Some domains have some very nice things (Luck and Liberation spring to mind), but Hyde doesn't want to halt his progression for this. No real archetypes for this, so just grab some domains and minor casting and bolt.
Fighter (MB/MH) Probably the most dip friendly class in the game, this is where you get your heavy armor, all martial weapons, and all that good stuff. But two archetypes I want to point out specifically are: Unbreakable, who trades away their first level feat for BOTH Endurance and Diehard. You know how much those feats got mentioned in the guide, and for you to get them both this easily is chocolate. The other is a new one, Trench Fighter. While you'll have to burn a feat on gun proficiency (I'm almost certain this archetype is meant for a game where guns are a martial weapon) you get dex to damage on your firearm at level three. That's 2 levels earlier than the Gunslinger, basically making that class obsolete for dipping in anything but a Guns Everywhere campaign.
Monk (MB/MH) Much like the fighter, you're here for two levels of feats. The difference being instead of armor and weapons, you're grabbing Improved Unarmed Strike, a +3 to all your saves, and a few other goodies. Probably the best package here (if your GM doesn't hate archetype stacking) is Sohei/Master of Many Styles. For two levels, this gives you 2 style feats that you don't have to meet prerequisites for (Snake Style, Wing), always acting in the surprise round and a +1 to initiative. That's one hell of a dip if you're a melee intensive character.
Ranger (MB/MH) This is a lesser dip than the Fighter but there's still a few unique things you get. If you're going to dip, do it for two levels and go the natural attack style to pick up Aspect of the Beast, which has a nice suite of abilities that you can take. And I'd go Freebooter to get Freebooter's Bane, which is way less situational than Favored Enemy. Since it's a move action to use and never runs out, you can spend the first round buffing while you give a Bard like boost against a single enemy, as well as never having to worry about running out. Also it's not worth staying here to get Endurance, as the opportunity cost is too high.
Rogue (MB/MH) The best use of this is to add a bunch of things to your skill list (which you could do with traits) since Sneak Attack doesn't directly stack. You could use this to pick up Trapfinding (If you didn't pick it up with your own archetype), get a few decent weapon proficiencies, but this is so similar to your base class while being worse, you probably won't find much to enjoy here. If you take it, take it for two levels so you can at least get a Rogue Talent (which will probably be a feat.)
Wizard (MB/MH) Slightly better than the Sorcerer for a few reasons, including intelligence synergy. Your familiar won't level up, but the bonuses it gives you (+4 to initiative) are always great, which can be added to a divination specialist wizard to allow you to always act in the surprise round. If the familiar bonus doesn't matter to you, you could go Arcane Bomber to get a more flexible bomb damage type, although losing Cantrips with that hurts. Still, it stacks for bomb damage, so you're at least not losing any progression which is nice, even if you can't specialize.

Non Core
Gunslinger (MB/MH) Thanks to the Trench Fighter, the Gunslinger lost its only niche in dex to damage with firearms. This does however become BLUE if the campaign is being played with the Guns Everywhere rules, as they pick up Gun Training at first level instead of fifth.
Magus (MB/MH) You're here to pick up Spellstrike, that's it. The casting is nice, this version of Arcane Strike is pretty nice, and Shocking Grasp is pretty decent (Might want to pick up Magical Knack to let it and your other spells increase in damage a bit.) I'd probably consider this the best caster dip for your melee character, and gives you a little more variety in your attacks.
Summoner (MB/MH) Jumping straight into the Synthesis, this gives you pounce at level 1 with three natural attacks. You never stop having pounce, as well as a slight buffer of HP to play with. The summons are never great for you, and the spells aren't either, but both are useful enough. Also pounce at first level. I'm not sure how this works when you transform using extracts, but I'm pretty sure you lose out on what your original form had, so that's a bit sad. But just keep your original pouncing form and go to town.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:06 PM

8. Mundane Items
Kids these days think everything needs to be magical. Most of their problems could be solved by a little ingenuity and elbow grease. Also fire. Lots of fire." -Kallen Telos, owner and number one patron of the 'Gunpowder Dragon' alchemy emporium

Weapons
Simple
Club (MB/MH) This item is free, so why the hell not?
Cestus (MB/MH) A better crit range as well as having open fingers make this a pretty solid weapon. The -2 on precision roles hurts though, and this becomes worse if throwing bombs and making extracts is considered to require precision.
Crossbow, Light (MB/MH) This is what you do when you don't want to use a class feature, although the reload time on this is horrible. Still, it's not as bad as its heavy counterpart.
Bolts, Acid, Drow Poison, Fire (MB/MH) The cost of specialty bolts really isn't worth it, which is sad because it means we need to wait for arrows to get good utility weapons.
Dagger (MB/MH) This is just a good weapon to always have on hand, as it's easily concealed,thrown, drawn, and usable in a grapple. A dagger is always a solid backup weapon for just in case scenarios.
Gauntlets, Spiked (MB/MH) Without open slots for claw attacks, this is good for bombers so that you always have a weapon on hand.
Longspear (MB/MH) C. Hyde's default weapon of choice, and really the only reach weapon you get.
Morningstar (MB/MH) The king of one handed simple weapons, you could do worse.
Sling (MB/MH) This gets a little better for Hyde, as they're able to add strength into this, which should be a rather high stat for them. The range isn't bad either, but it's no crossbow.
Bullets, Groaning, Smoke (MB/MH) Again, the ammo here isn't worth it, wait for a better weapon.

Martial
Falchion (MB/MH) Half Orcs and Orcs only, but this is the preferred weapon for two handers. The crit range is beautiful and free proficiency sells this.
Horsechopper (MB/MH) Grenadier only, this is a very good trip weapon with high damage and reach. C. Hyde can't do much better than this without going exotic.
Longbow (MB/MH) Elf or Grenadier preferred, although this is worth a feat. Being able to add strength to damage makes this a good call for Hyde, and the range is amazing on this thing. But one of the biggest selling points is the variety of arrows you can employ.
Arrow, Angel Quill (MB/MH) Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Angel%20quill%2 0arrowhead), they're a little expensive, but softening up an opponent for someone who can't get by their DR is really being a team player. Probably not worth it for adamantine though, as those things are stupid expensive.
Arrow, Blunt (MB/MH) Switching up your damage type is rarely a bad thing, and adds to your repertoire.
Arrow, Flight (MB/MH) 20 feet is nice, but dropping your damage isn't nice. This is a good call if you're into long ranged warfare.
Arrow, Pheromone (MB/MH) For one hit, you can get what equates to Rage against a single target as long as you have Scent, which for you isn't a difficult thing to pull off.
Arrow, Raining (MB/MH) Lower in PFS, this should logically let you use an arrow as a delivery system for any alchemic liquid (or powder if you have a permissive GM.) If you factor that Holy Water is 25 GP that into the price of these arrows, it means that a basic Raining Arrow should only cost 5 GP, which is very affordable even at early levels. Just make sure to watch out for that -2 to hit penalty that they take.
Arrow, Slow Burn (MB/MH) Only listed to tell you to avoid it, this is far too expensive to be of value.
Arrow, Smoke (MB/MH) Another decent utility arrow, it's also decently cheap.
Arrow, Tanglefoot (MB/MH) This still carries the same auto entangle and speed reduction, but being unable to cause damage hurts. Thankfully, it's a touch attack so it holds the same utility, if a bit worse at its job. The loss of range is kind of weak, but even at half range you're still great, and it's a touch attack.
Spear, Syringe (MB/MH) Half Elf only, this is a very thematic weapon for you, although it's up to you if it's worth a feat to become proficient with it.

Exotic
Battle Ladder (MB/MH) This isn't optimal, advised, or an option you should even consider unless you want to fight with a LADDER!
Crossbow, Launching (MB/MH) Half Elf preferred, This weapon is a huge feat sink in order to be getting it to work at max potential. You'll need proficiency, Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Mastery to be attacking at full speed. But for this, you get a weapon you can enchant to add damage to your bombs, so it's up to you to decide how much you're willing to invest in it.
Falcata (MB/MH) Half Elf only, I'm just a large fan of this weapon, and since it can be used two handed, it's not a bad weapon to go for if you don't care about reach.
Flask Thrower (MB/MH) Half Elf preferred, this weapon is more to turn your alchemical items into ammunition to throw on enhancement bonuses to them, and doubles your range, which is solid enough. It won't increase the range of your bombs though, which are already at 20 feet.
Fauchard (MB/MH) Half Elf preferred, this is the best reach weapon I can think of to use. It has the best crit range a weapon can have (arguments about the Falcata aside), and it's a tripping weapon. If C. Hyde is going to use a feat for a weapon, it's to take this.
Kusarigama (MB/MH) As written, this is a reach and adjacent weapon (at least if you read the description, as well as the basic logic of the weapon), which is the only one I know of so far. It has pretty low damage dice, but it's an excellent control weapon with Trip as well, making it amazing for C. Hyde.
Net, Snag (MB/MH) Nets are pretty great weapons when used properly, and a snag net is even better. It's an auto entangle with a possible mobility limiting effect, and Hyde's high strength could make this a pretty easy trip attempt, and the slightly higher concentration check for spellcasters doesn't hurt either. Sure you're taking a -4 non proficiency penalty, but it's a touch attack so that's not really a huge deal. The only problem is the 10 foot MAX range increment, so try to stay close if you plan on making use of this.
Firearms (MB/MH) Guns are fun, and they follow a lot of the same rules as your bombs, but they have a number of things working against them. First of all, they require Rapid Reload to function after a point, which comes a lot sooner if you took Rapid Shot. They also don't improve your range from what you can manage with bombs, and unlike bombs, they become worse than crossbows outside of their first range increment. They're also very costly both in cost and for their ammunition, and require you to have gunsmithing to fix them up in case of misfire. All in all, you can find a better use of a feat than becoming proficient with these.

Armor
Light
Haramaki This is your armor of choice for a dexterity based character. It's cheap, light, and has no max dex bonus, so if you have a crazy high dexterity bonus.
Chain Shirt This is your default armor, as it's the best light armor you can get. Mitrhiling it will get you another +2 to your max dex bonus, so feel free to splurge a little bit if you need it.

Medium
Mithril Breastplate For a single trait (Armor Expert), you can get this down to a 0 ACP, meaning that's all you'll need to wear it comfortably. If you have a trait and some gold to burn, this is a great way to do it.

Heavy
Mithril Hellknight Plate To wear this, you'll need Armor Expert and Sargarvan Guard to get the ACP down to 0, but it's easier than taking both Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency. It's hard to get better protected than this, although the max dex bonus isn't great, so I'd mostly consider it for Hyde.

Shield
Buckler Once you get a darkwood or mithril shield, you have no reason why not to strap it to your forearm and wreck some faces. With a 0 ACP, it's not a hindrance at all, adds to your flat footed AC, and lets you throw other bonuses on it for the fun of it. Pick up a buckler, and love it.

Alchemical Items
Alchemical Items are a lot of fun, and enhance the class a lot, especially with their ease of use and your ability to craft them without fail. But sadly, really none of them have a DC that scales well to your other abilities, so by about level five or so, they start to drop off in usefulness.

Offensive
10 GP Acid At early levels, this does the exact same thing as your bomb but with a better damage type, and it's still getting your Throw Anything bonus damage. It's also cheap enough that you can craft a few to extend your bombs at low levels, so enjoy it while it's relevant.
20 GP Alchemist Fire At twice the cost, here's old reliable. It comes with an additional 1d6 of damage the round after, but that isn't modified by anything, so it's not as good as your initial burst. Still, it's extra damage that you don't spend an action to use, so think about it.
15 GP Alkali Flask A greater cost for acid to do an extra 1d6 against oozes. They aren't that common, so save yourself some change unless you're underground.
40 GP Bottled Lightning Sadly this isn't a splash weapon, so no bonus to damage here. It's 1d8 damage, but that isn't making up for losing your intelligence bonus.
35 GP Burst Jar This is a splash weapon that does sonic damage (which gets your Throw Anything bonus), as well as automatically deafens the target one round later for 1d4 rounds, then does splash damage, and has a very minor chance to stun them for a round. This is an item that really ages well since it always debuffs no matter what.
50 GP Flash Powder It's a blinding effect for one round with a low DC. This would be lower if blinding wasn't such a good debuff. But since it has no effect if they save, it's hard to recommend this.
100 GP Fuse, Pellet Grenade The problem with this weapon is it's not a splash weapon and more importantly the variable timer it has to activate. This would be a great item if it worked when thrown, but not knowing how many rounds it'll take to activate makes this too random for serious encounters.
50 GP Ghast Retch Flask When this hits, it auto sickens the target for 3 rounds with no save, and a minor chance of nausea. The only thing holding this back is that it's a poison effect, so some things may be immune to it, but I think a willing GM would let you make these with Celestial Poison to keep them relevant.
25 GP Holy Water This is situationally better than acid, but when it's better, it's great. It's also one of the few ways a low level party can actually hurt a ghost (and gets your Throw Anything bonus), so even though it's a teeny bit on the expensive side early on, you'll be glad to have a few vials to huck at the undead.
60 GP Itching, Sneezing Powder This is a terrible save DC for a weak effect and horribly overpriced as well. Sneezing powder is a bit better, but comes with the same horrible DC.
40 GP Liquid Blade This comes with a lot of utility, doesn't get old nearly as fast as some other items, and gives you a nice stealth weapon for dangerous situations.
40 GP Liquid Ice The slight bit of utility these give don't validate the price increase, but they're a decent way to mix up your early game damage types.
25 GP Shard Gel I'm rather unsure if this is stopped by damage reduction, as it's a lot weaker if it is. If not, it's a far better item. Also unsure if you get your intelligence bonus to the caltrop damage, which would help make this a way better tool.
150 GP Tangleburn Bag Though this is expensive, it's one hell of a bargain for getting both at once (and the splash damage.) The burn duration is even greater as well, as well as being waterproof. The gold of this is the tanglefoot bag effect though, as we're about to talk about.
50 GP Tanglefoot Bag This is an auto entangle on a hit, and the reflex save stays relevant against most melee brutes. Simple and elegant, this is a great item although loses value on larger targets.
30 GP Thunderstone There's better items that basically do the same thing without a save, but you'll have to wait a round for them to activate. So it's speed over reliability with this.
50 GP Unstable Accelerant This NEVER goes out of style, as extra damage for your bombs (sadly only fire) will always be useful.

Utility
50 GP Air Crystals Who needs to be an Internal Alchemist when you can buy air? This isn't a long term solution, but in a pinch it'll keep you from drowning.
5 GP Alchemical Cement It may take quite some time to dry, but having a decent amount of cement at your command can be quite the useful item.
20 GP, 25 GP Alchemical Glue, Accelerant While you don't need both, they're cheap enough where you can use both to very quickly seal off entryways and set traps for others.
20 GP Alchemical Solvent This won't come up as often, but it's good to have it as a one of in case of less powerful adhesives.
300 GP Alchemy Lab, Portable This isn't a first level, but eventually this is a rather handy piece of equipment. Even with the penalty to magic item creation, it's giving you extra crafting time to make everything else on the list.
50 GP Antiplague, Antitoxin Since you probably traded away anything to do with poison, this is a decent way to keep yourself from getting sick.
25 GP Bloodblock, Bodybalm You have extracts, you don't need mundane heal checks.
10 GP Bomb Launcher Even with this is cheap, you'll rarely need the extra distance. Maybe pick up a few just in case.
5,000 GP Blightburn Paste Yes that's the right price, and this is one hell of an investment, but it can be used to make a mage think twice before teleporting all over the place. And since you're making it, it won't be nearly as expensive.
10 GP Buoyancy Balloon This is better for your bomber since they're more likely to be small, as it gives you a chance to go to the skies from early levels. Also a great tool underwater to surface fast.
30 GP Deodorizing Agent While you already have an extract that does this, it's still a very handy ability to have at a moment's notice, especially if you have a Rogue who still wants to scout.
25 GP Foam, Impact By about level six this is obsolete, but for a sudden fall this can save your life. It doesn't say if you can stack these, but if you can, it gets better.
75 GP Fungal Stun Vial Despite this item have a save, it also is a rather high save (DC 20) as well as being a will save, and either stuns or confuses depending on the lighting. It's a tad expensive, but you can use this one for a while before it gets stale.
150 GP Gel, Fire/Frost Ward A cheaper Protection From Energy, it's good if you're not taking tons of damage per turn, such as if you know someone does 1d6 elemental damage per round.
45 GP Gel, Phosphorus Think of this as buying Delay Bomb, but with a longer waiting period. If you can apply this to something, just wait an hour and wait for it to go boom. It's hard to hide the effects since it emits light and heat as a candle, but doing 3d6 for that little cost for something you can apply and forget is completely worth it.
2 GP, 10 GP, 25 GP, 75 GP Ink, Invisible This is more of a plot item than a genuinely useful item, but the lower levels of it are pretty cost efficient if you know this won't be magically deciphered (not sure what spell you'd use to do that though, since this is still mundane.)
50 GP Oil, Cardice I have a soft spot for this one because I honestly think it's seriously cool. It's a way to make a temporary bridge in water, or even a crappy makeshift boat.
50 GP Paste, Blackfingers You probably traded away Poison Use, so this is a good way to make sure you're still immune to poisons.
75 GP Paste, Bone This is a way to break down organic matter, which could work on certain forms of armor or wooden hafted weapons. How useful that is would be debatable.
35 GP Paste, Shrieking This is a decent mundane alarm system, although unless someone's there to hear it, it has no value.
5 GP Plaster, Casting Even though it doesn't specifically say it, you should be able to use this to copy keys, which is a pretty nice use of this.
1 CP Powder This is crazy cheap, and anyone with a bit of creativity should find a use for this.
60 GP Powder, Rusting Another thing that makes you a solid Substitute Rogue, although the risk of setting off the trap is decent if you're not careful.
25 GP Smelling Salts This is a poor substitute for a cure, but being able to wake up a dying party member is worth 25 gold.
20 GP Smokestick An old standby and still solid, it's another neat trick to escape danger.
40 GP Smoke Pellet, Smog Being able to pinpoint an invisible opponent at low levels is invaluable, so pack a few of these.
2 GP Sunrod This is very cheap, but hopefully you won't need it since it's not too hard for your senses to grow sharper.
1 GP Tindertwig A gold piece is worth being able to start a fire, and has decent utility value.
100 GP Troll Styptic The biggest value of this is a curing item that doesn't require magic, as well as being usable by anyone. A little expensive, but for how much you're crafting it for, it's still a bargain.
25 GP Water Purification Sponge A great survival item, decent to pick up one before magic solves your food issues.
5 GP, 20 GP, 100 GP Weapon Blanche (Silver, Cold Iron, Ghost Salt, Adamantine) Everything below Adamantine is actually really helpful here, but I'd suggest it for ammunition only. Considering 1 blanche can cover 10 pieces of ammunition, you're getting a way better value there. My favorite out of these is ghost salt, as hitting incorporeals for full damage is actually kind of amazing.
50 GP Unguent of Revivification A cheaper alternative to Gentle Repose, this helps with time sensitive issues involving corpses.

Miscellaneous Equipment
5 SP Bandolier They look cool, and they give you easy access to all your gear, and they're cheap. Pick up two, but make sure to use iron vials for anything you fear getting smashed.
2 GP Bear Trap This is crazy cheap for how much damage it does, and can also hold the target in place. I love setting these up in front of my door before I sleep at an inn, especially connecting bells to them so it's nice and loud.
5 GP Glass Cutter A very iconic rogue item, you should have the skills needed to use this quite easily.
5 GP Hollowed Pommel Another cheap and sneaky place for you to hide things, your extracts and potions should be an Easter Egg hunt on your person to find them all.
1 SP Iron Vials "Oh, your stuff is going to get broken!" Not anymore with these very cheap and sturdy vials keeping your dangerous chemical safe.
50 GP Loaded Dice, superior Maybe it's just me, but I love having an ace in the hole, especially with sleight of hand as a class skill.
50 GP Masterwork Tool This is too varied to explain, but just 50 gold for a +2 to any skill is something worth having.
8 GP Pocketed Scarf Most of your fun toys can be stored in this easily, giving you another place to hide your bombs and such.
25 GP Poison pill ring While it says poison, there's no limit to what could be in there, and this is a rather stealth way of being able to transport liquids.
50 GP Poisoning Sheath Found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Poisoning%20she ath), this is a quick and easy way to poison things, as well as helping others poison them without your help.
2 GP Potion Sponge The main draw of these is being able to use them underwater, but they're also not made of glass, which is always a plus. And besides, who's gonna confiscate your sponges when you walk into a building?
5 GP Spring Loaded Wrist Sheathe Another thing not on the PFSRD but can be found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wrist%20sheath% 20(spring%20loaded)), being able to shoot out basically any alchemical item as a swift action is beyond good, as well as light weapons or other such things. Not to mention it's also incredibly cool.
1 SP Weapon Cords With the recent errata of these, making them a move action to use considerably reduces their usefulness. Still decent, but not nearly as much so as a swift action.

A primer for aspiring poisoners
Poisons are a rather odd type of item. While Alchemist are easily the masters of poison, that doesn't make them a great item.

The problem with poisons is that it's quite hard to increase their DCs without raising their price to a point where they lose value. As an alchemist, you have a few options which increase their power in your discoveries.

But one rarely used rule is that you can add additional doses of a poison if it's manner of delivery is either ingested or inhaled. While ingested isn't a big deal, inhaled is what we're looking at here. The best way to make an inhaled poison is to take a non inhaled poison, and change it with the Poison Conversion discovery. Without that, you'll generally outgrow poisoning by about level 6 or so. If you're going to go down the conversion route, your poisons need to follow a few simple rules.

Low cost: The cheaper you can get this poison, the better since you'll be paying for it a lot.
No onset time: If you're planning on using this in combat, you can't wait for it to take effect.
Solid Initial/Secondary Effect: Some poisons will have a great initial effect, but you only get that once, and then the secondary effect, which might be a lot more lackluster. Make sure your poison is always doing something good before picking it up.
Per Round Frequency: Most of the time you'll be using these in combat, and especially with inhaled poisons, your target is going to know they were poisoned by something around them. You can't have 1/min effects on them, because that's just too slow.

Beyond that, any poison is fair game (a favorite of mine is Drow Poison for how cheap it is, and its effects of knocking out people instantly) although some are better suited to be changed.

Let me give a few of my favorite examples below. Note the cost of these is being viewed at Level 6, the point in which you can take Poison Conversion, which is what makes these poisons relevant.

Black Adder Venom
120 GP, DC 11, 1/round for 6 rounds, 1d2 Con damage
This is the most cost efficient constitution damage you can buy, with the step up to 1d3 increasing by nearly 4x the cost. Stacking doses of this is the best way to kill a low con creature in no time flat.

Bloodroot
100 GP, DC 12, 1/round for 4 rounds, 1 Con and 1 Wis damage
A surefire Cleric killer, stacking this up will make up for the lacking duration as well as making the target vulnerable for both fortitude and will save failure. This is also the fastest mental stat damaging poison, as the rest are all 1/min frequency, which really is a shame. Sadly it does have a one round delay, but one round isn't terrible for something this nasty.

Drow Poison
75 GP, DC 13, 1/minute for 2 minutes, Unconscious for 1 minute/Unconscious for 2d4 hours
And the knock out blow. No onset, instant sleep, and the chance to put them out for hours is just too good. This is probably the bread and butter of your poisoning set, making it easy to knock out anything that breathes.

Medium Spider Venom
150 GP, DC 14, 1/round for 4 rounds, 1d2 Str damage
The cheapest strength damage we can get, this loves the duration stacking from adding multiple doses, and has a good chance of knocking out brutes if you can get it early and stay away from them.

While you can go more expensive to get more ability damage at once, the cost ratio really begins to eat into your effectiveness. For most of these, a hit and run style of play is recommended as to force your opponent to suffer through these effects for as long as possible. Only Drow Poison gives you an immediate benefit, so make sure to play your poisoner smart and evasively.

Poisons like this are worthless against opponents who don't breath, so undead and such (assuming you took Celestial Poisons) are immune to them. Also be aware of spells that can block air flow, like Wind Wall and Fickle Winds. For opponents like that, your best bet is Sticky Poisons, since it'll help spread your poison budget. It's not great since you don't get a lot of attacks with the same weapon (so you'll be waiting longer to deliver multiple doses, as well as being in melee), but undead often have lower fort saves, which makes up for the lack of inhaled abuse.

You are still capable of making poisons a viable tool using this advice, but realize that it'll be a straight drain on your gold for a consumable bonus, so make sure you're aware of everything that goes into using this tactic, and happy poisoning.

Hybridization Funnel and You: A Primer
With alchemical items being your style, this item is an incredible way to increase your versatility and damage. The rules of this state that you have to make a DC 25 Craft: Alchemy check to use it (with a +5 to the check for Half Elves), but for you that won't be that hard a thing. By about level 4-5, you should be able to make this while taking 10, so that's about the point this will become a viable tool for you. It's also VERY cheap, retailing at 200 GP, which you could pick up before you're out of 1st level.

The item itself states that you have to use splash weapons as well as liquids, which discludes Tanglefoot Bags (one of my favorite items). But it doesn't exclude Tangleburn Bags, which are technically still splash items as well as liquids (thick liquids such as tar and resin are still liquids, although some GMs may argue this.) You can also not double up on an item, meaning two Alchemist Fires will not give you double the burn for your buck.

I don't feel these need new ratings, as they maintain the same function that they did before, so this is more of a rundown of what you're able to use with this rather enjoyable magical item. With that in mind, the following items can be used with the Hybridization Funnel:

Acid This is basically the salt of the hybridization funnel, it's never a bad thing to add to another alchemical item.
Alchemist Fire The biggest boon of this is the additional damage afterwards, although fire is pretty often resisted.
Alkali Flask The best use of this is more acid damage, since you can't double up on acid flask. Aside from that, it's just a more expensive source of acid damage.
Burst Jar I like this as sort of a secondary effect, more of a surprise than anything else.
Ghast Retch Flask: This will never be bad unless you can't sicken your opponent,
Liquid Ice Save this for opponents that are both weak to ice and not smart enough to resist it.
Shard Gel This provides some decent non typed damage for a decently cheap cost, and gives you some area denial.
Tangleburn Bag I really love adding this to things, as it's such a good debuff with damage that it's hard to find something more worthwhile.
Unstable Accelerant This item is a lot worse here, since you're not using it for its most valuable purpose. It's far too expensive to be of value, so stick with something else unless you're facing fire vulnerable opponents.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 01:07 PM

9. Magical Items and Sample Builds
Some people call magical items a crutch when it comes to adventuring. Well I'd rather use a figurative crutch than come home needing a literal one. -Trepe Esttse, former(?) adventurer and owner and operator of "Esttse Arms and Accessories"

Magical Items

Weapon Enchantments
Rather than the normal way of rating items, this section will rate items by which type of attack they are; [M]elee, [R]anged, or [N]atural (intended for use with Amulet of Mighty Fist.) Enchantments that do not apply to certain weapon types will be left unrated.

Note: Your Amulet of Mighty Fist can only go up to a +5 at most, but does not require a +1 before placing other enhancements for it.

Priced Bonuses
1000 GP Adaptive (M/R/N) This allows you to use your Mutagen to buff your ranged damage for Longbows, which is helping out your bottom line.
3000 GP Impervious (M/R/N) It's cheap, but how often are your weapons sundered?
4000 GP Glamered (M/R/N) This is a nice piece of tech for stealth operations, and it's not too expensive, so consider it if you find yourself taking weapons into restricted locations.
10,000 GP Transformative (M/R/N) This is far too restrictive to be of use to you, as your normal weapon should be good enough for most situations.
14,000 GP Dueling (M/R/N)
The best use of this is throwing it on a gauntlet for a permanent +4 to initiative, but that won't be for a while. Aside from that, the bonuses aren't worth this cost.

+1 Bonuses
Numbered Bonuses (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5) (M/R/N) Only ranged weapons are getting enough attacks per round to really abuse these, and while it does help with DR, your natural attacks should be treated with Greater Magic Fang.
Agile (M/R/N) Helping to make B. Hyde more SAD is a worthwhile investment, as well as buffing your AC and initiative. This is basically its own playstyle for Hyde.
Bane (M/R/N) This is situation to the extreme, but amazing if you're playing in a themed game.
Called (M/R/N) This is really only great if you're very paranoid, and not worth the space on your amulet.
Conductive (M/R/N) Literally cutting the number of bombs you have in half, being able to only use it once per round keeps you from burning out too fast. Honestly this is a lot better than Explosive Missile, as it lets you keep up your normal attack routine without forcing a standard action to do this, which keeps you relevant for longer, as well as only activating when you want it to (like on a hit.)
Elemental (Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid) (M/R/N) As you can see, acid is normally the best call unless you know it's not going to work. Your archer should be getting enough shots to make this deadly though.
Guided (M/R/N) Another possible different build for B. Hyde, this is something else you have to plan around. It's not as solid for melee weapons though.
Vicious (M/R/N) You don't have the HP to be taking damage like this, at least until you're pouncing.

+2 Bonuses
Aligned (Anachronistic, Axiomatic, Holy, Unholy) (M/R/N) At its best, this will play in pretty often to what you're fighting. Change the colors based on what kind of game you're playing (most high level opponents are connected to an alignment somhow.)
Defiant (M/R/N) You need to take some of the listed feats to make it work, but more uses of Heroic Defiance as well as some insurance against being taken out of the fight can be pretty useful.
Designating, Lesser (M/R/N) By rules, you are your own ally, so this is in effect granting everyone a +2 morale bonus to melee attack and damage for your entire party.
Elemental Burst (M/R/N) No, this isn't better. Not even a little.
Endless Ammunition (M/R/N) Ammo for a bow or crossbow isn't expensive, don't take abilities that don't help you out in a real way.

+3 Bonuses
Speed (M/R/N) This is listed just to tell you not to take it, as you can get Haste effects far cheaper than this.

+4 Bonuses
Brilliant Energy (M/R/N) This will rarely be worthwhile, as by this point, your opponents won't be wearing armor.
Dancing (M/R/N) Lacking AOOs removes this from C. Hyde, although this with natural attacks would be pretty funny.
Designating, Greater (M/R/N) The upgrade is amazing, now doing a +4 to attack and +6 to damage. If you have 2 or more people in melee, you WANT this.

+5 Bonuses
Vorpal (M/R/N) Nope, not worth it. Not even then. Never take this. Ever.

Armor Enchantments
Since you probably have a buckler, armor reviews will be placed to separate out if something applies to your [A]rmor or [S]hield, as being able to place bonuses on either can expand your array of magical items.

Priced Bonuses
2700 GP Glammer (A/Shields)This is actually pretty nice for armor since you should be always wearing it, so disguising it is often a good move. The cost isn't bad either, a decent mid level investment.
3750 GP Shadow (A/S For a sneaky Alchemist, this is perfect. Skip the improved version though, the cost is too great for too little a benefit.
5000 GP Creeping (A/S)This on the other hand is not worth your money, as most armor you have should have no ACP by the time you can afford this, as well as the bonus it give being too small to matter.
10,000 GP Delving (A/S) This is not a bad price for a (slow) burrow speed, and gives you another way to travel if you so choose. You'll need to find another way to breathe though.
18,000 GP Energy Resistance (A/S) You've got extracts that'll let you do this for far cheaper, this nor its improved form is your enchantment.
27,000 GP Righteous, Unbound, Unrighteous, Vigilant (A/S) While better for Hyde, once a day with a standard action activation is kind of bluh. the bonuses are nice though, so this makes a decent standby to Enlarge Person with some DR to boot.
30,000 GP Determination (A/S) For the cost of that Elixir of Life, you can have a free life once per day. The fact that you can stick this on your shield as well gives you two chances per day to stay alive. Hopefully it won't be ruled that they activate at the same time. though. It won't work against death effects, but you've got Death Ward for that.

+1 Bonuses
Numbered Bonuses (+1 +2 +3 +4 +5) (A/S) Probably the best way to do things is to stack different bonuses on either one. Remember that there will probably be times you're using your buckler arm, but your armor will always apply.
Bolstering (A/S) Most things you'll be needing to save against will be opponents, so getting some extra bonuses to saves should come in handy.
Fortification, Light (A/S I like this slightly more on a shield, but this is a pretty decent cost for a chance of avoiding crits.
Spell Storing (A/S)I think the description means "Immediate Action" or else this armor doesn't do anything, but an extra layer of defense is solid considering some of the spells you can transfer through it if you have a friendly mage.

+2 Bonuses
Animated (A/S) The merits of this are obvious, the move action isn't great for its activation though. But for Hyde, this is the go to for what you'll be using as a shield.
Spell Resistance 13 (A/S) This wasn't worth it as a spell, and this is insanely overcosted. This and the others are not worth it at all.

+3 Bonuses
Fortification, Moderate (A/S) Another strong ability, this is mostly for crits instead of sneak attack. I think it tops off here, as the highest form feels rather overcosted.
Ghost Touch (A/S)Just bite the bullet and take the hit to AC unless you face a lot of ghost or something.

+4 Bonuses
Nothing here stands out, and I've already warned you against the worst of this.

+5 Bonuses
Fortification, Heavy (A/S) Another high cost, I feel like this is less worthwhile. Probably better for your shield though.
Reflecting (A/S) For once a day, you can do better than this. Even straight bonuses are better than this.

Rings
2,000 GP Ring of Protection (MB/MH) An old standby, you can't get this one all day with a potion, so it's worth having.
2,500 GP Ring of Sustenance (MB/MH) This is a godsend for a crafter, as it gives you much more time to make your alchemical toys and such. For a price this cheap, it's hard to give up, although it'll need to be a primary ring since it takes a week to work.
3,000 GP Ring of Ferocious Actions (MB/MH) Are you ever staggered more than five times a day? This basically removes staggering you as an option.
12,000 GP Decoy Ring (MB/MH) While not always helpful, this is one hell of a trick to be able to pull off. If you've got the coin, be sure to pick up one of these.
12,700 GP Ring of Chameleon Power (MB/MH) Both the stealth bonus and the Disguise Self are what put this into solid purchase territory.
45,000 GP Ring of Delayed Doom (MB/MH) Being able to negate a fatal condition for any amount of time is worth the gold.

Slotted Wondrous Items
Belts
4,000 GP Belt of Physical Stat (MB/MH) At least one of these will be vital to your character, and I won't be reviewing the improved options as they hold the same value and worth as the lesser ones. Improving your stats is always beneficial, so keep your stat bonuses up to date with your level and wealth if at all possible.
5,000 GP Blinkback (MB/MH) This is the item you need if you plan on being a knife thrower, although non ranged builds can pass this up.
10,000 GP Thunderous Charge (MB/MH) A slightly less strength bonus, but once you get pounce the extra damage could be handy. Just a toss up between which you value more.

Body
48,000 GP Smuggler's Collapsible Robe (MB/MH) One of the few robes worth owning, this is a late game purchase but gives you a decent stealth option. Definitely not a primary item however.
64,000 GP Otherworldly Kimono (MB/MH) The resistance bonus is very nice here if you have your shoulder slot filled. Sadly the caster bonus doesn't really help a lot, but a once a day Maze is solid if you need rounds to buff and you're facing a rather dull witted opponent.

Chest
5,000 GP Sipping Jacket (MB/MH) This is amazing for the level of potions you can use in a day. Only loses points for not comboing with Alchemical Allocation, but great for first level throw away potions and amazing for your action economy.
20,000 GP Vest of Stable Mutation (MB/MH) This is way too expensive for what it does, considering at most it's a -2 to all your mental stats (when only wisdom and intelligence matter) when you could be enjoying a nice cool Sipper's Jacket. Give this one a hard pass.

Eyes
2,500 GP Eyes of the Eagle (MB/MH) +5 to Perception is one heck of a bonus, especially at this price. An early purchase that grows old very gracefully.
2,500 GP Goggles of Minute Seeing (MB/MH) For the aspiring Substitute Rogue, not as universally useful as the previous item, this is great for trap disablers. And it's cheap enough so you could pick up both comfortably.
6,400 GP Treasure Hunter's Goggles (MB/MH) A bunch of neat minor bonuses for a pretty reasonable price make this nice, as well as if your GM really enjoys secret doors.
7,500 GP Kinsight Goggles (MB/MH) Scouting just got a lot more viable with these bad boys. An early detection system lets your scout actually convey without speaking what they see, and in no uncertain terms. The range isn't amazing, but your scout should never be too far away to help out in a pinch.

Feet
10,000 GP Tremor Boots (MB/MH) A little pricey, but adding another way to detect others that's always on can save your life.
12,000 GP Boots of Speed (MB/MH) An old standby, and just as good whenever you get multiple attacks. The free action to activate is what makes this worth picking up though.

Hands
2,000 GP Gloves of Reconnaissance (MB/MH) More cheap scouting gloves, these are better to slip on and off as needed.
2,000 GP Apprentice's Cheating Gloves (MB/MH) Two of my favorite cantrips all day for only 2k? This is a great item for creative players.
5,000 GP Poisoner's Gloves (MB/MH) You're using these to pop off some extracts, that's the goal here. It speeds up your consumption of them quite a lot for either you or party members, so make sure to pick up a pair ASAP.

Head
2,000 GP Buffering Cap (MB/MH) Once a day isn't great, but this turns a killing blow into just a knock out, which is enough to save your life in most situations.
5,000 GP Jingasa of the Fortunate Solider (MB/MH) ...or for 1 and a half more the price, you can just negate it, which is far better.
8,500 GP Helm of the Mammoth Lord (MB/MH) While the other stuff is nice, the gore attack is why you're picking this up, as it's another primary weapon to stack onto everything else.
10,000 GP Mask of a Thousand Tomes (MB/MH) For what it should be used for, this is a decent buff, applies to all knowledge skills, and well costed enough not to be insane.
12,000 GP Greater Hat of Disguise (MB/MH) Permanent Alter Self is worth your head slot, and it gives you a few nice senses to play with as well.

Headband
4,000 GP Headband of Mental Stat (MB/MH) Another no brainer, you take this for your intelligence, and maybe wisdom if you fear your will save. Note that this lowers the value of basically all other headbands (and belts) because they have to battle for these slots.
4,500 GP Shifter's Headband/Headband of Aerial Agility (MB/MH) Although these items could give it a run for its money, as they're basically the same, but with a few added benefits. It's up to you to decide how much they're worth though, although Aerial Agility spikes as soon as it hits a +4.

Neck
2,000 GP Necklace of Natural A (MB/MH) It's okay, but considering you can just use Barkskin for this and recycle your potion, you don't have a huge use for this.
4,000 GP Amulet of Mighty Fist (MB/MH) The FIRST item B. Hyde will pick up, and as fast as possible. This is the centerpiece of their build, and why any other amulet is instantly RED for them.
9,000 GP Necklace of Adaptation (MB/MH) An old favorite, this still holds value as it protects you from a lot of different situations.

Shoulders
1,000 GP Cloak of Resistance (MB/MH) This is THE shoulder slot item because saves are so important. Something would have to be amazing to bump this from your shoulder slot (unless you have another item that gives you a resistance bonus to saves), so don't expect to take this off anytime soon unless you can get a...
1,500 GP Cape of Free Will (MB/MH) This is the only item that beats it, since it's an additional +1 to your will save, and a neat little effect for mythic characters.
24,000 GP Minor Cloak of Displacement (MB/MH) By late game, miss chances are the way you'll avoid damage, so this is a helpful one. But it still has to compete with your other cloak for a slot.

Wrist
4,000 GP Bracers of Falcon's Aim (MB/MH) For this price, you get some amazing bonuses, especially your expanded crit range. Any character with a crossbow or longbow NEEDS this.

Unslotted Wondrous Items
50 GP Universal Solvent For the price, this is almost always useful.
200 GP Formula Alembic A nice cheap way to expand your formulae book.
200 GP Hybridization Funnel This is amazing, being able to double up on alchemic goodness can't be beat, and helps keep your items relevant longer. By level 5, you should be able to make this check without fail. Really an item that rewards creativity at its finest.
500 GP Wayfinder This really comes into its own for the boost it gives to Ioun stones, as well as not needing them to float around your head. Shining, Tireless, and Vanishing are probably the best upgraded ones, and it's probably better if you flavor it as a silver pocket watch.
1,000 GP Bookplate of Recall (MB/MH) For those of you paranoid about losing your formulae book, here you go!
1,000 GP Boro Bead Basically Pearls of Power for Extracts, I'd probably say the best one for this would be second level, since it's basically 4k for whatever potion you want.
1,000 GP Preserving Flask Another variety of Boro Bead, I like this slightly less since it's less flexible, but doesn't require an action to use.
1,800 GP Efficient Quiver Some of the best Alchemist are also archers, so anything that helps them out does double duty.
2,000 GP Handy Haversack Probably the best and most versatile storage you can buy, the ease of use is just amazing on this, and there's no reason to not pick up one of these as soon as you can.
2,200 GP Volatile Vaporizer While it doesn't allow you to use Alchemical Allocation, this is a nice boon if you have a potion that everyone needs to imbibe.
2,500 GP Bag of Holding I don't like this as much as a Haversack, but the additional storage space will probably become vital at some point.
4,000 GP Bountiful Bottle This is a cheap for what amounts to a free potion whenever you want once per day. As it reads, you can use this as much as you want with no downside, and this has a nice mythic bonus. I'd get a few for several different long duration potions.
4,000 GP Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone This is inexpensive for either benefit, so feel free to pick up two for both.
4,000 GP Marvelous Pigments Another favorite item of mine, this screams for creativity. While you need Craft: Painting, it's a valid use of skill points if you plan on using this wonderful item.
5,000 GP Admixture Vial This is okay since it basically gives you a free discovery, but the issue with having it work just like Combine Extract limits its use.
12,500 GP Blessed Book While it says Wizard, any reasonable GM will let you use this as a formulae book. And it has enough space that you'd never need another formulae book again.
16,000 GP Scabbard of Keen Edges Much better than actually putting Keen onto a weapon, if you have one that'll fit into a scabbard, this is how you make it nice and sharp.
17,000 GP Broom of Flying If you really need to fly a lot, this is a pretty cheap way of doing it that has some nice utility to it as well.
20,000 GP Portable Hole It's almost hard not to find a use for this quality Acme brand product.
26,000 GP Iron Bands of Binding Best use of these is against a weaker yet powerful opponent, as it's a very solid binding effect.
27,500 GP Manual/Tome of Physical/Mental stat My best advice is hold off on these until you can pick up the +5 version, as the bonuses don't stack and you don't get a discount for already having a lower bonus. But yeah, these and their evolutions are of prime concern to pick up ASAP once you can get a +5 version.

Potions and Elixirs
Potions And Elixirs
Potions are one of the things you do best, so you need to be smart about how you purchase and use them. I'll be listing the best minimum caster level for each potion, although going higher isn't a bad thing if you can afford it. Below are some guidelines for potions if you care to make your own.

CL matters: For you at least, caster level of potions is a large issue. This is because you'll be reusing them a lot with Alchemical Allocation, meaning the one time investment becomes just that, an investment.
Duration matters: This syncs into the last one, as you can actually use round per level potions in combat if you make them at a high enough CL. Still, this is better suited to longer duration potions. Minutes per level can last ten or more. 10 minute potions can last an hour or two, and 1 hour potions can last all day, just for the slight investment in a slightly better quality of potion.
Potions of Note

Cleric
CL 1+ Endure Elements (MB/MH) Nice, cheap and keeps you from burning an extract, even at first level it last all day.
CL 18+ Shield of Faith (MB/MH) 18 minutes of a +5 deflection bonus is very hard to beat, and pretty cheap as well.

Druid
CL 12+ Barkskin (MB/MH) Two hours at a +5 will last a good chunk of your adventuring day, and you can get it even higher if you want some added duration.
CL 20 Magic Fang, Greater (MB/MH) Another all day spell, you might need to allocate this a few times depending on how many natural weapons, unless you're okay with just a +1 to all of them at once.
CL 10+ Protection from Energy (MB/MH) This hits the barrier a lot earlier than most spells, and the duration sets it up for a big encounter. You might want to pick up more than one for each energy type you expect to face in a day.

Ranger
CL 7+ Strong Jaw (MB/MH) This is as good at level one as it is at level twenty, so duration is the only concern for this potion.

Summoner
CL 7+ Dimension Door (MB/MH) Seeing as you don't have a lot of teleportation options, this one is very powerful for you.
CL 7+ Invisibility, Greater (MB/MH) While you can get this yourself, this is lower and probably better for sharing.
CL 15+ Stoneskin (MB/MH) Considering you only have to pay for the material component once, this makes the spell even better.

Elixirs
1,400 GP Elixir of Dragon Breath (MB/MH) The value in this is the variety of damage that you can do with it, as well as the rather cheap cost. It drops off after a while, but in the early game this can be a decent investment.
3,500 GP Elixir of Shadewalking (MB/MH) This is solid for the price, and has a very sizable duration.

Sample Builds

Generalist Alchemist
Kallen Telos
Female Tiefling Grenadier 5
CN Medium Outsider (Native)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10, Darkvision 60 ft

AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +3 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Natural)
HP 27 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +5

Speed 30 ft.
M Mwk Morningstar +6 (1d8+3) or bite +6 (1d4+5) or bite +6 (1d4+3) and 2 claws +6 (1d4+3)
R +1 Adaptive Longbow +5/+5 (1d8+6) or Bomb +8 (3d6+7) or Explosive Missile +7 (1d8+6 plus 3d6+7)
Special Attacks Bomb 9/day (3d6), mutagen (+4 Str, –2 Int, +2 natural armor, 50 minutes), Explosive Missile, Alchemical Weapon
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 5nd)
1st-Targeted Bomb Admixture x2, Cure Light Wounds, True Strike, Anticipate Peril
2nd-Alter Self, Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Point Blank Shot, Throw Anything(B), MWP: Longbow(B), Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim
Traits Second Chance, Pragmatic Activator, Reactionary
Drawback Headstrong
Alternative Racial Traits Prehensile Tail, Scaled Skin (Fire)
Favored Class Bonus Bombs
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +17, Disable Device +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Perception +9, Sleight of Hand +11, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +10, Use Magic Device +12
Discoveries Frost bomb, Precise Bomb (B), Explosive Missile
Gear +1 Mithril Chain Shirt, Darkwood Buckler, +1 Adaptive Longbow, Mwk Morningstar, +1 Cape of Free Will, Hybridization Funnel, Handy Haversack, Raining Arrows x10, 800 GP

Design Notes
Kallen here is designed to put up as much damage as possible, and if I were inclined to, I would have listed her entire suite of alchemical items. But that's where they Hybrid Funnel comes into play. Adding an alchemical item to your explosive arrows is only going to increase you damage even further, or a combined one to add some debuff danger to your abilities. Alter Self is here to give you the chance to mix things up in melee taking the form of a Lizardfolk, which after your mutagen is at a decent enough bonus to hit.

At max potential, Kallen here can do a Raining Arrow filled with Holy Water, or if you're allowed to fill it yourself, with a hybridized Acid/Alchemist Fire (1d8+6 plus 2d4/6+5 plus 1d6 fire damage next round), using Alchemical Weapon to combine it with a Hybrid Acid+Alchemist Fire (2d6+5 plus 1d6 fire damage next round), and an unstable accelerant Bomb Explosive Missile (4d6+7). Knowing that, you're basically working into honing your ranged abilities. The Adaptive Bow is mostly so you can continue pumping your strength and add damage to your attacks, and the added strength will help you out with your claws and fangs.

Mad Bomber
Rita "Gasbag" Thumper
Female Goblin Mindchemist 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Init +11; Senses Perception +12, Darkvision 60 ft

AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+1 Size, +5 Armor, +2 Shield, +5 Dex)
HP 32 (5d8+10)
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +3

Speed 30 ft., Climb 10 ft.
M Dagger, +1 (1d3-2)
R Mwk Light Crossbow +10 (1d8) or Bomb +11 (3d6+6)
Special Attacks Bomb X/day (3d6), Cognotogen (+4 Int, –2 Str, +2 natural armor, 50 minutes),
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 5nd)
1st-Targeted Bomb Admixture x2, Cure Light Wounds, True Strike, Anticipate Peril
2nd-Invisibility, Cat's Grace/Fox's Cunning

Str 6, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 11, Cha 5
Base Atk +3; CMB +0; CMD 16
Feats Improved Initiative, Throw Anything(B), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Traits Reactionary, Highlander, Teacher's Pet (Local)
Drawback Doubt
Alternative Racial Traits Over-Sized Ears, Cave Crawler
Favored Class Bonus HP
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +18, Disable Device +13, Knowledge (Arcana) +18, Knowledge (Local) +20, Knowledge (Nature) +18, Perception +12, Sleight of Hand +13, Spellcraft +13, Stealth +18
Discoveries Smoke Bomb, Stink Bomb
Gear +1 Mithril Chainshirt, +1 Darkwood Buckler, +1 Cape of Clear Thoughts, +2 Headband of Vast Intellect (Disable Device) 800 GP

Design Notes
Rita is very much a one trick pony at this point, but her trick is VERY good. Stink Bombs are crazy powerful, and with her initiative she'll be going close and maybe shutting down encounters before they begin. One of the most important things to notice about Rita is her very competitive AC, which gets even better post cognotogen. The build itself is meant to sweep up opponents, and the damage this build is capable post Fast Bombs is just ugly.

But out of combat, this is also a very knowledgeable build, and if you do this build, feel free to take more skill traits to get more knowledge skills. Not only that, but this character is almost invisible at this point, with a massive stealth check as well. This is a very specialized build though, so if you're not comfortable with this many dump stats, you could easily lower the dex and int on this build, but it takes away what makes it an insane, weak, ugly goblin.

B. Hyde
Harrison Zahhak
Male Ragebred (Skinwalker) Beastmorph/Vivisectionist 5
NE Medium humanoid (Shapeshifter)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10

AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
HP 42 (5d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +6

Speed 30 ft.
M Gore +6 (1d6+8) or Gore +6 (1d6+6), Bite +6 (1d8+6), 2 Claws +6 (1d6+6) 2 Hooves +1 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +3d6, mutagen (+4 Str, –2 Int, +2 natural armor, 50 minutes)
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 5nd)
1st-Enlarge Person x2, Cure Light Wounds, True Strike, Anticipate Peril
2nd-Invisibility, Bull's Strength

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Extra Feature, Power Attack, Arcane Strike
Traits Armor Expert, Tiger's Charge, Sargarvan Guard
Drawback Xenophobic
Favored Class Bonus HP
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +15, Disable Device +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Perception +10, Spellcraft +10
Discoveries Feral Mutagen, Infusion
Gear Mwk Chain Shirt, Belt of Giant's Strength +2 , Cloak of Resistance +2, Hybridization Funnel, Mwk Light Crossbow 600 GP

Design Notes
Harrison here is rocking 4 primary physical attacks and 2 secondary, which is just ugly. The guy lacks any flaws, and even comes with an SLA to power his Arcane Strike, which is using a swift action you don't need elsewhere. The level of hurt this character can put down is supernatural, although thanks to his stellar natural attack routine, he's unable to get much out of transformation based extracts.

With all of these attacks putting out so much damage, picking up an AOMF is basically the next thing on your shopping list as you're doing 4(1d4+6 +3d6) without even getting lucky with the hooves if you can get them all to land, which is a blender. Consider Hammer the Gap when you qualify to make sure all your other natural attacks hit as well. I doubt I'd use this build in an actual game, but once it gets pounce...game over.

C. Hyde
Auric Navliss
Genderfluid Half Elf Preservationist 5
LG Large Humanoid (Human, Elf)
Init +1; Senses Perception +9, Low Light vision

AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 14 (+5 armor, +1 Dex, -1 Size)
HP 37 (5d8+15)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4

Speed 30 ft.
M +1 Meteor Hammer +7 (2d6+8)
R Mwk Light Crossbow +4 (1d8) or Bomb +4 (3d6+4)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Bomb 8/day (3d6), mutagen (+4 Str, –2 Int, +2 natural armor, 50 minutes),
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 5nd)
1st-Summon Monster I x2, Cure Light Wounds, True Strike, Anticipate Peril
2nd-Summon Monster II, Bull's Strength

Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats EWP: Meteor Hammer (R), Planar Preservationist, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Traits Second Chance, Pragmatic Activator, Axe to Grind
Drawback Doubt
Alternative Racial Traits Ancestral Arms
Favored Class Bonus HP
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +16, Disable Device +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Perception +9, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device +11
Discoveries Infusion, Spontaneous Healing
Gear Permanent Enlarge Person, +1 Weapon, +1 Mithril Chainshirt, +1 Cloak of Resistance, Mwk Light Crossbow, Hybridization Funnel, 650 GP

Design Notes
Now with Auric, I figured making them large from the start would be the best way to go about things. This is probably the least powerful build of the group, but with Preservationist, you can make your own flanking buddies and hand them off to your party to use as well. At the range you'll be battling at, you can easily go for trips without provoking either. The Meteor Hammer is specifically for its ability to work either at close or far range.

While there could be issues with actually hitting CMBs, being large gives you a way bigger range of trip targets as well as Dirty Trick victims. Eventually you'll be taking Lunge to really master the battle field, and holding down people nice and solidly. Sadly this is the least defensive build, which is why Spontaneous Healing was thrown on, since your size and poor AC is going to cause you to take A LOT of hits. So feel free to buff your defenses as you level up, or just take the beating like a champ.

Akal Saris

2013-07-19, 08:02 PM

I think it makes sense to separate them out. There are 2 very different play styles, after all.

- Within the Hyde playstyle, you might consider further dividing them into dex-based (focusing on the vivisectionist archetype and two-weapon fighting) and strength-based (half-orcs with falchions, beastmorph types).

- One trait of note is Quick Drinker (accelerated drinker?), which makes drinking a potion a move action. A tiefling bomber could therefore draw a potion with his tail as a swift action, drink it as a move action, and throw a bomb as his standard action. Or, if you were already holding a potion, then a non-tiefling alchemist could do the same. Probably would be a DM call if this trait worked with infusions or extracts as well.

- The alchemists that I have played with (both bombers) were surprisingly easy to kill, since favored class hit points go to bombs and the class needs a decent dex and charisma already. So feats like Toughness can make a difference if there is room.

GrokMyJive

2013-07-19, 08:21 PM

(accelerated drinker?)

From Cheliax Companion!

- The alchemists that I have played with (both bombers) were surprisingly easy to kill, since favored class hit points go to bombs and the class needs a decent dex and charisma already. So feats like Toughness can make a difference if there is room.

This is why my alchemists tend to leave behind a scattered network of extra clones and doppelganger simulacrums. plus its an easy way to be just about everywhere at once without teleporting all the time, or needing to ask the wizard.

N. Jolly

2013-07-19, 09:26 PM

Discoveries are up! Next is going to be feats, since I'm excited to start work on that.

@Akal Saris: I'd love to further separate styles, but even Bomber and Hyde is a decent amount of extra work. Noticing how much goes into poisoning, I almost want to make a category for that as well. Maybe I will eventually, but the Hyde style is based on melee, whether that be from high strength and two handing to natural weapons and AOMF (Agile), a personal fave of mine. And yeah, Accelerated Drinker is pretty nice, I honestly think it should apply to extracts, but it's solid enough with just potions.

@GrokMyJive: Honestly, it's because of writing this guide that I'm seeing the value of Simulacrums and such. There's a lot of things I didn't realized worked together at first, but I'm enjoying seeing the synergy between everything.

GrokMyJive

2013-07-19, 09:54 PM

Have you read the old guide over at Ogrehut, then? There may be some things you hadn't considered, there, or feats you might have passed over.
Standing on the shoulders of giants, as they say.

pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/

avr

2013-07-19, 10:28 PM

There's a half-finished guide here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290974) which you might find of interest. There's a fair amount of disagreement with yours.

N. Jolly

2013-07-20, 11:54 PM

Player's Handbook and Advanced Player's Guide feats are up

@GrokMyJive: I have seen that, which was part of the reason I split the guide into thirds. I'm starting to think that I should expand the titles for Master Bomber and Mr. Hyde in the rankings, as the first ranking is probably the least important to the guide. I could probably make like 3 different guides for this class (with Hyde being split into two, which seems thematically appropriate), but for now I'm going to keep the format I have going. Maybe later I'll expand upon it (I'd also like to give the poisoner some more time to shine.)

@avr: Eh, I feel like that other guide was a bit too generous. I'm seeing more red in feats than I'd like to, but I'm just being honest with my assessments on things, and a lot of these feats aren't great for Alchemist. I'd rather have a lot of red than promote something that isn't optimal.

N. Jolly

2013-07-21, 10:29 PM

Just finished off the UM and UC feats as well as traits.

Right now I'm wondering if there's any more sub roles I should consider, possibly a "Scary Hyde" section as well.

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to suggest them. Also if I forgot something that you thought should be in the guide, please give me a source so I can put it in.

Also if someone has some pictures to suggest, I'd love to get some images on this guide.

Crasical

2013-07-21, 11:44 PM

I believe Dilution isn't a 'free' potion, you need to spend 1/4 the cost of one to create a dilution.

N. Jolly

2013-07-22, 01:14 PM

@Crasical: Well Berlin Balloons, you're right! Changed that straight away!

Feats, Traits, and 1st/2nd level extracts done.

I actually didn't know there was another Alchemy guide going around, I was wondering why mine wasn't getting that much discussion. I'd love to work together with them though, since soloing a guide doesn't feel like the best solution.

And still looking for image suggestions, unless the only suggestion is to make every image from Full Metal Alchemist, which would be totally okay.

N. Jolly

2013-07-22, 09:19 PM

Sub roles are updated, as well as 3/4th level extracts.

Still looking for picture suggestions, might modify the title of this guide again later, as well as an opening quote.

N. Jolly

2013-07-23, 09:43 PM

Extracts are complete, deciding what to do next.

I can't speak for the quality of the multiclass section, but everything else should be aces.

Still looking for opinions and pictures if you have any.

NamelessNPC

2013-07-24, 11:39 AM

From what I've read, you seem to think that the Vestigial Arm grants extra attacks per round, which is not the case and is explicitely mentioned in its description.

N. Jolly

2013-07-24, 03:09 PM

@NamelessNPC: By itself it doesn't, although I wasn't sure if adding something to it allowed it to, such as claws from the Feral Mutagen. I should ask about that on the boards before making sure. Thanks for the reminder though, I need to make sure everything here is legal before suggesting it.

Non Racial Archetypes are up, now just have to do the racial ones before that part of the guide is done.

Still need more input, and if no one suggest pictures, they're basically all going to be from Fullmetal Alchemist, as that's what I watch while making this guide.

Urpriest

2013-07-24, 04:24 PM

You really ought to have a detailed discussion of in what ways extracts count as spells and in what ways they don't, since this is one of the least clear aspects of the class. It would also be interesting to know how Communal spells are supposed to get around the basic restrictions of the Extract rules.

N. Jolly

2013-07-24, 05:02 PM

That's a good idea, I might read into that more later to be able to give a discussion of Extracts and such.

I myself always assumed you just tapped people on the shoulder or whatever to make Communal spells work, but I'll ask at the Paizo boards too to see if anyone else has a different rationale for how it works.

Racial Archetypes are up, I think I'll be putting up a few particularly useful archetype combinations.

SamsDisciple

2013-07-24, 06:13 PM

I just have to say that I am very excited about the alchemical items section. I have seen lots of people trying to optimize the alchemist in its different forms but to be able to look at the rarely used alchemical items would be alot of fun, especially with alchemists fire adding your int bonus

StreamOfTheSky

2013-07-24, 07:30 PM

Oy... this is a lot to try and comment on...

Just a general suggestion, sorry I didn't request it before you spent all the time typing things out, but... This is a guide for optimizing. You really don't need to list every single feat, every single multiclass choice, all the traits, etc... and have a giant swath of red text. No one cares about the horrible side options, it's just a waste of space to include it all. If a feat or multiclass option is possibly useful, list it and note why. If something is in particular associated with the Alchemist class but is a horrible, horrible trap, then by all means list it as such as a warning. But you don't need to mention all the things not to take. Leaving it out of the guide does that for you and is far less work.

Stuff actually tied to the class itself like archetypes, extracts, and discoveries, yeah. Those you need to all cover.

N. Jolly

2013-07-24, 08:02 PM

@Sam: I really like Alchemical Items, and honestly I wish they were more valuable past about 6th level (there are some exceptions).

@Stream: I appreciate the concern, but a lot of those options were done just for a sense of completion. I've actually learned a lot about the Alchemist from doing all those Red reviews. I also know a lot of people who would want to know everything, even if it was sub optimal to get a better handle on the class. I'm still looking forward to seeing your guide come together, maybe I can learn a bit about making a guide from it.

The Vivimorph is up, as is a primer about extracts, although if I've left something out, please let me know. Also I have an opening image and quote, since FMA has been a huge part of this guide. I doubt this guide will be too picture intensive, so I can't imagine using a lot more.

I'll probably be doing Alchemical Items next, although I will be taking more of a minimalistic viewpoint on weapons and armor.

Alexander leah

2013-07-25, 09:04 AM

a good feat may also be http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/splash-weapon-mastery from the ultimate armory, at least for the bomber

3WhiteFox3

2013-07-25, 02:09 PM

I'd like to defend the Mindchemist. I feel it is much better than you rated it, at least for the Mad Bomber. It's pretty bad for Mr. Hyde.

Cognagen - You lose Mutagen but the only difference between the two is the ability damage (which can be offset with lesser restoration, or just by waiting it out) and it helps your intelligence. It's essentially a free discovery if you like having better saving throw DCs and damage for your bombs. Hyde won't like it at all, but a Mad Bomber will enjoy the benefits.

Perfect Recall - Knowledge checks to identify a creature can mean the difference between not knowing that basilisk blood restores petrified creatures to flesh or having your teammates become new statues for the BBEG. Adding your Intelligence twice is a fairly sizable bonus to that. You only lose Poison Use, for me I'd much rather have the knowledge checks, but I like knowing things.

As for the other things, you don't have to lose a discovery, Mindchemist just gives you more options. Yeah, it's not a good choice to lose a discovery for languages or a terrible feat; however, you don't actually lose anything from this feature, so it should not be rated red. After all compared to what you lose you're no worse off from having the option than you would be without it. After all there are bad discoveries already, having a couple more doesn't change much.

In short, I think Mindchemist should rate as green and for Mad Bombers blue. You just don't lose much for a pretty nifty ability.

N. Jolly

2013-07-25, 04:06 PM

@Alexander: I do like this feat, it makes Ricochet Splash Weapon a bit better. Both effects are what would make it good, and I might put in a separate section for misc feats if anyone has anymore to offer.

@3WhiteFox3: I can't see raising this for anyone but the Mad Bomber. The biggest reason for that would be Cognatogen not enhancing your baseline Alchemist. It increases their intelligence, which increase bomb damage and DCs, but it doesn't make the character more versatile. To me, this is not worth increasing their rating, since your regular Mutagen gives melee as a possible option.

Perfect Recall is being measured against what else you could be trading for this, or else most things that get rid of Poison Use would be green. If the Alchemist had more knowledge skills, this would probably be rated higher as I mentioned.

The extra options are there and which demands they be rated, and while you didn't give anything to get those options, bad options should still be listed as such. I did raise its rating for Mad Bombers, but the baseline Alchemist still isn't getting enough to take the archetype to increase its rating.

Alchemical Items are up, probably going to do a short blurb on weapons, might throw Armor into that, and then finally get to the point that I'm least looking forward to doing, Magical Items.

grarrrg

2013-07-25, 06:14 PM

The extra options are there and which demands they be rated, and while you didn't give anything to get those options, bad options should still be listed as such.

They should still be rated at least Orange, as they are a gain. Even if that gain is a small one, it is still pure upside.

Also, your downsides to the Master Chymist archetype seem a little off.

Having a mutagen that activates without your control is a bad thing, even worse when it has a separate personality from yours and wants to spend its time doing its own things.

You only involuntarily Mutate if you take a Critical Hit, or fail a Fort Save, and it can only trigger if you are already in 'normal' form.
The most likely place for Critical Hits or Fort Saves to occur would be in combat, and if you are in combat, chances are you WANT to be mutated anyway.
If you didn't want to be mutated in combat, you wouldn't have picked Master Chymist to begin with.
As for the separate personality thing, it still follows your same goals, it may seek to achieve them in a different manner, but it will still do more-or-less what you want.
Also, another boon for the beatstick alchemists, you have extra uses per-day of Mutagen with OUT needing a 1 hour prep time. Persistent Mutagen or not, extra uses can be quite handy, and is readily available as early as 8th level, where as Persistent doesn't kick in til 14 at the soonest.

N. Jolly

2013-07-25, 08:31 PM

They should still be rated at least Orange, as they are a gain. Even if that gain is a small one, it is still pure upside.

I feel it's me trying to tell people that even though it's an option, it's a bad option, and trying to steer them away from it. But it is still a boost in versatility, so I'll modify the "free bonuses" to reflect that.

Also, your downsides to the Master Chymist archetype seem a little off.

You only involuntarily Mutate if you take a Critical Hit, or fail a Fort Save, and it can only trigger if you are already in 'normal' form.
The most likely place for Critical Hits or Fort Saves to occur would be in combat, and if you are in combat, chances are you WANT to be mutated anyway.
If you didn't want to be mutated in combat, you wouldn't have picked Master Chymist to begin with.
As for the separate personality thing, it still follows your same goals, it may seek to achieve them in a different manner, but it will still do more-or-less what you want.
Also, another boon for the beatstick alchemists, you have extra uses per-day of Mutagen with OUT needing a 1 hour prep time. Persistent Mutagen or not, extra uses can be quite handy, and is readily available as early as 8th level, where as Persistent doesn't kick in til 14 at the soonest.

Thanks for noticing some of that, I've been doing things quickly enough where it's been hard to catch everything. The saves and such aren't that bad, and Mutate is a better ability than I gave it credit for at first. I'm still not wild about the separate personality, but it's flavorful, so it gets a pass.

Honestly I see this is a 2-3 level dip at the most, as I stated before. I'll have to modify the review of it to reflect these changes.

Mundane weapons and armor are up, next are magical armor and weapon enchantments, and finally magic items.

Any more critiques are still welcome, and thanks for the insight into the Master Chymist.

Sunken Valley

2013-07-26, 05:21 AM

I recommend you put some sample builds in.

N. Jolly

2013-07-26, 01:24 PM

I recommend you put some sample builds in.

I'll probably do that in the FAQ post, maybe I'll ask around for some suggestions. I figure 3 or 4 should be good to help show the different types of Alchemist, hopefully employing some of the sub roles as well to help people get a handle on those as well.

Magical weapon enchantments are up, next is armor enchantments.

And if anyone has any builds they'd like to have put up, let me know.

N. Jolly

2013-07-28, 03:43 PM

Just did a bunch of new races, added a new introduction, and finished magic weapons and items.

Next up is a section on poisons, potions, and wondrous items.

9Reeds

2013-07-28, 09:17 PM

avr

2013-07-28, 09:21 PM

You missed a few useful alchemical items - ambrosia, clear ear and weapon blanches listed on this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances), drugs here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs), a few odd items here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/hunting-camping-survival-gear).

N. Jolly

2013-07-28, 10:47 PM

What do you think about the Hybridization Funnel. I think it adds a lot to the Grenadier archetype. I built my Society half-Orc Grenadier off its interaction with alchemical weapon, explosive missile and a longbow. Even the simplest mixture of Acid flask and Alchemist fire gives you on average an additional 12-13 damage on your arrow depending on your intelligence bonus plus you can add whatever level of bomb damage you have to the arrow with explosive missile as well. It is also really fun when you run out of bombs to add your alchemists fire/acid to your long spear of Falchion for close combat (Better at level 6 when its a swift action for charge attacks). What do you think of that kind of build ? Do you think you will be writing a section on hybridised alchemical items. How about a section on the special Alchemists wondrous items like the Hybridization Funnel, Boro beads or Preserving Flask ? That would be really helpful to new players. Ps. Brilliant guide, never realised frost bombs were so good.

I myself love the Hybrid Funnel, it's going to be a centerpiece of my next Alchemist. Right now I'm finally getting to the magic items, and I might have to do a bit of a Hybrid Mini Guide in this one since that item (Especially for Grenadiers) is pretty amazing. I'm getting to magic items now that would benefit Alchemist, but it's the part I've been dreading most since it's HUGE. It'll probably take me a few days to get it all, and thanks. I made this guide to highlight options that not everyone would think about.

You missed a few useful alchemical items - ambrosia, clear ear and weapon blanches listed on this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances), drugs here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs), a few odd items here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/hunting-camping-survival-gear).

I honestly specifically skipped over those first three, although I might have been a bit hasty with some of those other ones you mentioned. Weapon Blanche is honestly really lame to me, although I'll check over drugs to see if there's anything to recommend (never thought I'd be saying that), as well as the other link you gave. I'd rather leave solely mundane items out of this guide, as that quickly falls into the purview of pure creativity, so I doubt unless it's immediately helpful (Maybe something on spring loaded wrist sheaths), I doubt I'll include it. The item section of this class is huge enough, and I'm praying I won't have any spill over.

Potions are now done, and now onto magical items, although maybe a stop over at mundane items for a bit more utility.

N. Jolly

2013-07-30, 11:27 PM

Slotted magic items almost done, only have Wrist left, unslotted are next, and then rings.

Sadly Magic items ran long, so no FAQ post, although maybe I'll still throw that in with a sample builde or two.

Havoq

2013-08-01, 02:57 PM

Colors are great; opinions too. Sample builds are...the bomb. :smallamused:

SamsDisciple

2013-08-06, 01:40 PM

When you get the time to do it I would really appreciate a hybridization mini guide, it sounds like a great thing to do but I have no idea what it even does

N. Jolly

2013-08-14, 04:33 PM

Hybridization Funnel and Armor are now up, most likely doing to do a Mad Bomber Build at level 5 next.

Raven777

2013-08-14, 09:24 PM

Why do you say a Two Weapon Fighting Vivisectionist is worse off than a Natural Attacking Vivisectionist? Can't they actually pull off both?

Kinda like this guy?
http://st-listas.20minutos.es/images/2010-08/245026/list_640px.jpg?1281476079

2nd lvl - Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat)
4th lvl - Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex)
5th lvl - Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat)
6th lvl - Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex)

Multiweapon Fighting only has a 13 Dex requirement, which makes it much easier to balance with other stats than classic TWF. Then they wield weapons in the Vestigial Arms and use them for a regular TWF style full attack, then add their Natural Attacks as secondary attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks). By sixth level, an Alchemist would Attack / Attack / Claw / Claw / Bite in a single round. Or would the -2 penalty on weapons and -5 penalty on secondary natural attacks be too much of a drawback?

N. Jolly

2013-08-15, 03:45 PM

Why do you say a Two Weapon Fighting Vivisectionist is worse off than a Natural Attacking Vivisectionist? Can't they actually pull off both?

2nd lvl - Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat)
4th lvl - Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex)
5th lvl - Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat)
6th lvl - Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex)

Multiweapon Fighting only has a 13 Dex requirement, which makes it much easier to balance with other stats than classic TWF. Then they wield weapons in the Vestigial Arms and use them for a regular TWF style full attack, then add their Natural Attacks as secondary attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks). By sixth level, an Alchemist would Attack / Attack / Claw / Claw / Bite in a single round. Or would the -2 penalty on weapons and -5 penalty on secondary natural attacks be too much of a drawback?

Well sweet sassy molassy, you're right! I guess I kept on getting hung up on the "No additional attacks" line, but in the text it still says you can TWF with them. That's been updated in the Vivi section, although throwing on Multiattack will help the large penalty on secondary attacks. This would also help you out if you were to take Tentacle too, giving you 6 attacks a round. Honestly, the level of destruction that B. Hyde is reaching is getting rather scary. I don't know how comfortable I'd be seeing it played to full potential in a game.

123456789blaaa

2013-08-15, 04:25 PM

An interesting trick:

So, my Alchemist is looking forward to using this trick once he has a lot of 2nd level slots for extracts (but Alchemical Allocation is level 2...man, that level is tight). It's both grotesquely awesomely stylish, and "no save, just lose."

Touch Injection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-injection) + Skinsend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skinsend)

Make a melee touch, and wrench your foe's skin from his body w/ no save or SR! Whether he or you gets to control the new skin puppet, the enemy's toast. Either the body is helpless and gets coup de grace'd, then you run away till the duration expires, or if the foe is in his body, then the skin is destroyed and he remains helpless for...weeks, it would seem.

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9675.0)has some good stuff (especially the second page) like how to make a permanent skinsend construct that won't leave you helpless or dead if it dies.

grarrrg

2013-08-15, 05:42 PM

Well sweet sassy molassy, you're right! I guess I kept on getting hung up on the "No additional attacks" line, but in the text it still says you can TWF with them. That's been updated in the Vivi section, although throwing on Multiattack will help the large penalty on secondary attacks. This would also help you out if you were to take Tentacle too, giving you 6 attacks a round. Honestly, the level of destruction that B. Hyde is reaching is getting rather scary. I don't know how comfortable I'd be seeing it played to full potential in a game.

Multiattack would help, but qualifying for Multiattack is the issue, as you only have temporary Natural Attacks, and you need 3 to qualify for the feat.

Also, the Tentacle, by strict RAW, may not work as a Secondary Natural attack.

N. Jolly

2013-08-15, 06:01 PM

This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9675.0)has some good stuff (especially the second page) like how to make a permanent skinsend construct that won't leave you helpless or dead if it dies.

I did check it out, and it seems like a lot of effort. I think it's more than I'd want to explain in my guide, but it'd be a bit more detail than I want to go into. Like I almost think I could just do a guide on Simulacrums that would be worth using.

Multiattack would help, but qualifying for Multiattack is the issue, as you only have temporary Natural Attacks, and you need 3 to qualify for the feat.

Also, the Tentacle, by strict RAW, may not work as a Secondary Natural attack.

I'll have to look for the quote, but I've heard that you can take feats that you only qualify for at the time. Technically they would stop working when you didn't meet the prerequisites. At worst, it gives Lizardfolk one hell of a boost.

And yeah, I can see why it wouldn't work. I don't really know why they were so strict about that. But even still, 5 natural attacks is pretty solid. I'll have to reevaluate their ratings with this new information.

grarrrg

2013-08-15, 08:28 PM

I'll have to look for the quote, but I've heard that you can take feats that you only qualify for at the time. Technically they would stop working when you didn't meet the prerequisites.

Can't find the reference I want right now, but you are correct about "part time" feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats) (bottom of page)
"A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

This mainly comes into play with things like "stat draining" spells and the like, or Old Age and physical penalties.

I might be applying the "Stat bonus item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores)" rules to other things though (not that there isn't a separate rule, just that I can't find it if there is)
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Even if it's not a rule for non-stat things, it's still a decent guideline, what with all the MANY things you can gain temporarily.

N. Jolly

2013-08-16, 03:01 PM

Can't find the reference I want right now, but you are correct about "part time" feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats) (bottom of page)
"A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

This mainly comes into play with things like "stat draining" spells and the like, or Old Age and physical penalties.

I might be applying the "Stat bonus item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores)" rules to other things though (not that there isn't a separate rule, just that I can't find it if there is)
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Even if it's not a rule for non-stat things, it's still a decent guideline, what with all the MANY things you can gain temporarily.

I know there was something more specific, but there's a precedent for part time feats. I knew it came up during the Paragon Surge debate.

Either way, it stands to reason that you could take multiattack and pull this off. If not, Tengu and Lizardfolk got a lot better, seeing as they all have a full claw/claw/bite routine naturally.

Sample builds up for B. Hyde and Mad Bomber, although I'm not sure if I'll do a C. Hyde one now. I think most people who want to play Hyde are going to go for Beast/Vivi, so a more control heavy build probably isn't going to be popular enough to give full attention to. Although I feel like the Generalist Alchemist is going to have far more of a vanilla write up, as one would expect.

As always, let me know if there's anything I've forgotten or need to add.

N. Jolly

2013-08-18, 03:12 PM

Just added a C. Hyde build, only have one left to put up.

Also added a few items from Mythic Adventures.

Do you guys think I should add a section for mythic feats/paths?

I was thinking about doing it, but I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.

Sunken Valley

2013-08-18, 03:17 PM

Will your builds go up to LV20

darth_borehd

2013-08-19, 05:54 AM

I think you focused a bit too much on combat. Out of combat, the alchemist works great fulfilling a role as an "answer man."

You go for highest intelligence first. Take Mathematical Genius (Engineering), and any other traits that grant you knowledge skills you do not have. Take feats of Cosmpolitan or Additional Traits for more. Max out your knowledge skills, Craft (Alchemy), and Heal. Oh, and pick up ranks in Linguistics to further yourself as a polyglot.

Get Master Alchemist and any another feats that decreases crafting time or maxes out the above skills. Well Prepared fits this concept well too.

Get infusion discovery and hand them out as needed for any situation. Mix up alchemical solutions and potions of all kinds to carry with you (Ant Haul is great to lug around all this gear, even with handy haversack. Really add up encumbrance and you'll see.)

Play as an adventuring scientist [The Doctor (Doctor Who), Macgyver, Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama), Sherlock Holmes, Walter Bishop (Fringe), Doc Bown (Back to the Future), Samantha Carter/Daniel Jackson/Rodney McKay (Stargate), John Crichton (Farscape), Leonardo DaVinci (DaVinci's Demons)]. Sure, you won't be as effective in combat, but out of combat, the GM will start to hate you as the guy who knows everything and has a remedy for just about any situation.

:smallsmile:

N. Jolly

2013-08-19, 06:03 PM

Will your builds go up to LV20

Sadly no, since I don't have the room in the post. I feel that the general idea of the builds is quite clear from the sample design, and at best I could possibly fit a feat progression.

I think you focused a bit too much on combat. Out of combat, the alchemist works great fulfilling a role as an "answer man."

You go for highest intelligence first. Take Mathematical Genius (Engineering), and any other traits that grant you knowledge skills you do not have. Take feats of Cosmpolitan or Additional Traits for more. Max out your knowledge skills, Craft (Alchemy), and Heal. Oh, and pick up ranks in Linguistics to further yourself as a polyglot.

Get Master Alchemist and any another feats that decreases crafting time or maxes out the above skills. Well Prepared fits this concept well too.

Get infusion discovery and hand them out as needed for any situation. Mix up alchemical solutions and potions of all kinds to carry with you (Ant Haul is great to lug around all this gear, even with handy haversack. Really add up encumbrance and you'll see.)

Play as an adventuring scientist [The Doctor (Doctor Who), Macgyver, Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama), Sherlock Holmes, Walter Bishop (Fringe), Doc Bown (Back to the Future), Samantha Carter/Daniel Jackson/Rodney McKay (Stargate), John Crichton (Farscape), Leonardo DaVinci (DaVinci's Demons)]. Sure, you won't be as effective in combat, but out of combat, the GM will start to hate you as the guy who knows everything and has a remedy for just about any situation.

:smallsmile:

I'm willing to admit that this is very clearly a combat guide, although it also has a good amount of utility information, especially in the alchemical item section.

A lot of the suggestions you're giving is basically the advice I gave for the Substitute Rogue, since that's the role it seems like you're trying to fill. Well, it seems like you're more so trying to advocate the Sub Rogue Mad Bomber with the focus on intelligence. As I've seen, you really don't need that much intelligence for a B. Hyde, which would make a bomber ideal for what you're attempting to design.

To me, the Handy Haversack is the apex of storage for an alchemist who needs to carry a thousand and one items, as removing anything from it is so quick that it's hard to find something better.

I myself think that Infusion should have been part of the class, I give it to my players for free just because it's a discovery tax that they shouldn't need.

All of those archetypes are possible with the alchemist, and if you dedicate resources to out of combat resources you can do a lot. But you already have a lot of out of combat value with your extracts and regular skills. I stand by my belief about skill feats, as a feat should always give you a new capability instead of giving bonuses to a skill. Skills are the weakest part of an Alchemist abilities, so I really don't like to focus on them myself.

Mythic Paths for Trickster and Universal are up, and I'll probably put up a few feats from Mythic Adventures and finish up the last sample build soon. If I have room in the last post, I'll be sure to put up some feat paths too.

darth_borehd

2013-08-19, 07:11 PM

N. Jolly

2013-08-19, 08:57 PM

Not quite rogue. Rogues do stealth, sneak attacks, traps, and the like. They have knowledge (local) but knowledge skills are not their primary focus.

This would be a character that focuses on knowing obscure things (more like a bard perhaps) and crafting potions and alchemical items.

I myself associate skills with Rogues, since that's all they bring to the table. So when I say Sub Rogue, I really mean a character who identifies as a skill based character, which seems more like what you're talking about.

Alchemist can actually accomplish every role you stated there without making it their primary role, but it sounds like you're looking for something else. Might I suggest a Vanaran? Take the Tree Stranger alternative race trait, and you save yourself from taking all those traits to make knowledge skills into class traits. Having a tail lets them do all sorts of things, and monkeys are naturally whimsical.

It seems like that'd be more what you're looking for, who'd probably be a Generalist Alchemist using the entire list of available options that you could have.

Stormgale

2013-08-21, 08:48 PM

N. Jolly

2013-08-21, 10:04 PM

Jolly your guide is really helpful but I had one question, how did you calculate the bomb to hit/damage for The grenadier sample, she has +9 to hit and +8 Damage, I could only calculate:

+3 (BAB) +3 (Dex) +1 (Point blank) + 1 (Throw anything) to hit for a +8

and

+4 (int) +2 (Tiefling favored) +1 (point blank) + 7 To damage

What am I missing?

Most of the work on the sample build was copy/paste, so I'm very shocked you could only find one math error. I think I just got the numbers off by one, so I'll edit that.

Thanks for the catch, and glad you liked the guide. If I have the room, I might do a 5-20 discovery/feat list for the characters (a full write up for them at 10/15/20 won't fit in the post), and I'll be doing the Generalist Alchemist when my friend gets back. They're making it themselves using the information from the guide, kind of like a field test of its effectiveness.

Kallen is actually the build I like the most, and really feels the most "Alchy" to me, so I'd hope to at least have her mathematically correct.

Decided not to add Mythic Feats (mostly for space considerations, I'd rather keep it clear in case more feats come out later that I want to add), might add some stand out powers from other Mythic Paths (mostly because I have the room), but the guide should be finished (again) soon, hopefully before my next con (Matsuricon), so thanks for the support all.

Stormgale

2013-08-22, 01:28 AM

I only noticed it because I was making a level 6 Mad bomber and your numbers seemed off compared to mine, I assumed if I was wrong that I missed a way to get enhancement bonus on bombs (as that would lead to +1 to damage and hit which is what the math was off by)

deuxhero

2013-08-25, 03:40 PM

Sephoris

2013-08-26, 02:50 AM

I think you missed out on one great option when you mostly wrote of the Master Chymist's advanced mutagen options: furious mutagen. It increases your natural weapons by a die step. On its own, of course, it's just worse than growth mutagen, which gives you that die step and all the other bonuses of increased size. But where furious mutagen really shines is that you can still throw an Enlarge on top of it, and then you're dishing out 2d6 claws and a 2d8 bite. Growth, on the other hand, is ultimately only saving you the action to drink a level 1 extract (and occasionally makes like difficult for you in situations where you don't want to be enlarged).

The guide is excellent, though. As someone who's not currently playing an Alchemist, but is playing with one, the alchemical items section was really helpful. Our Alchemist is always asking during downtime if we want anything made, now I'll finally have some things to ask for. And suggest that a couple of us pick up Preserving Flasks for infusions. It doesn't take that many uses for one of those things to pay for itself, even ignoring the benefits of an extract over a min-level potion.

N. Jolly

2013-08-26, 07:22 PM

You rated Mutagenic Touch on the assumption it needs to be used on an ally: It doesn't.

Inflicting a very long duration confusion or disabling casting with just a touch attack is not terrible (plus how many creatures are immune to ability score "penalties"?).

Well ducks on strike, you're right! I'll admit I was a little tired while doing extracts since they went on FOREVER, so I'll be sure to change the rating based on that info. Alchemist and saving throws seem to have a very odd relationship.

I think you missed out on one great option when you mostly wrote of the Master Chymist's advanced mutagen options: furious mutagen. It increases your natural weapons by a die step. On its own, of course, it's just worse than growth mutagen, which gives you that die step and all the other bonuses of increased size. But where furious mutagen really shines is that you can still throw an Enlarge on top of it, and then you're dishing out 2d6 claws and a 2d8 bite. Growth, on the other hand, is ultimately only saving you the action to drink a level 1 extract (and occasionally makes like difficult for you in situations where you don't want to be enlarged).

The guide is excellent, though. As someone who's not currently playing an Alchemist, but is playing with one, the alchemical items section was really helpful. Our Alchemist is always asking during downtime if we want anything made, now I'll finally have some things to ask for. And suggest that a couple of us pick up Preserving Flasks for infusions. It doesn't take that many uses for one of those things to pay for itself, even ignoring the benefits of an extract over a min-level potion.

Yeah, I guess I did overlook that. It's just that most of the discoveries for the M.C. are so freaking boring. God, if the class just let you take your normal discoveries in addition, it wouldn't be that bad.

Thanks though, I've been trying to keep this guide as complete as possible without bogging it down. I'm starting to think that this wasn't the best place to do it, because I'm hitting some space restrictions. I don't want to go through all of the work of bringing it over to google docs though.

Still, I'm glad you found some toys to enjoy, and the thought of people buying their own Preserving Flask as an alternative to potions actually seems really cool, so that's something I might have to add!

Just about to put down misc mundane items, although Generalist Alchemist probably won't be up for a while.

N. Jolly

2013-08-29, 09:51 PM

Mundane items are done, as is the Generalist Alchemist. I decided to move Kallen up to the Generalist Build (Giving her Feral Mutagen), and created a goblin bomber to take up the Mad Bomber slot.

With that, the guide is again officially complete. While there's still some touching up to do, and other such things, I'm willing to consider this guide officially complete.

I'll be working on a new project soon, possibly either Bard (I haven't seen a lot of recent Bard guides), Summoner (I really like Saph's guide, but I also love the class), or maybe the Barbarian (The least complex of the group, and my favorite mundane) if I get the itch.

Sephoris

2013-08-30, 05:18 AM

Gikamoth

2013-08-31, 11:15 PM

On Dhampir, with the Blood of the Night vampire book, they have alternate racial modifiers/skill bonuses/SLAs/Weaknesses based on the other vampire archetypes. Some of the other non-standard Dhampirs might be useful for alchemist. Example: Jiang-shi Born (Ru-shi) get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis; get erase as a SLA and lose light sensitivity for -1 vs Sonic.

Also worth noting: Tattoos use a different set of magic item slots than regular magic items "Magic tattoos must be placed on a part of the body normally able to hold a magic item slot, but they do not count against or interfere with magic items worn on those slots." Tattoo Potion is sliiiightly less useless.

And Lingering Spirit is 4th level, Lingering Plague is 8th

N. Jolly

2013-09-04, 02:46 PM

One other little fun fact (which I've stolen from one of the broken rules threads): you've already warned people off Defoliant Bomb, so this shouldn't affect the guide, but you missed the full impact of how terrible it is. As you pointed out, being a poison effect means many creature types are resistant or immune to it. It just happens that one of those creature types is plants. Yes, whoever designed the hyper-focused anti-plant bomb didn't take the time to look over the plant traits and make sure they weren't completely immune to it.

That's just...wow...

On Dhampir, with the Blood of the Night vampire book, they have alternate racial modifiers/skill bonuses/SLAs/Weaknesses based on the other vampire archetypes. Some of the other non-standard Dhampirs might be useful for alchemist. Example: Jiang-shi Born (Ru-shi) get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis; get erase as a SLA and lose light sensitivity for -1 vs Sonic.

Also worth noting: Tattoos use a different set of magic item slots than regular magic items "Magic tattoos must be placed on a part of the body normally able to hold a magic item slot, but they do not count against or interfere with magic items worn on those slots." Tattoo Potion is sliiiightly less useless.

And Lingering Spirit is 4th level, Lingering Plague is 8th

Changed the Dhamp ruling for those ones, although I still don't like the negative energy affinity a whole hell of a lot.

And slightly less useless is still not useful.

Did change the Spirit thing though, nice catch on that.

Starting the Barbarian guide later today, since I don't see a lot of guides for them actually finished. It'll probably be done in a fashion similar to this one, and I'm looking forward to having it done in about 3 weeks to help out another player of mine.

I'll still be updating this one with new content whenever it comes out, since this was still my first guide, and my baby though. I'll always love the Alchemist to death.

Raven777

2013-09-11, 01:30 PM

N. Jolly

2013-09-12, 10:18 PM

So. Lizardfolk. Vivisectionist. If you can convince your DM to let Feral Mutagen apply the claws to your feet, that would mean an attack routine of [Claw -2/Claw -2/Claw -2/Claw -2/Bite -2/Stab -2/Stab -2] by 5th level. Is there a way to add a tail lash to the mix?

To be honest, I'd rather do this with a Tiefling or other clawed race since you don't have a bite attack naturally, which gives Feral Mutagen more use. And since I'm a jerk, it'd technically be stab/stab-2/claw-2/claw-2/claw-2/claw-2/bite-2.

Although technically with Helm of the Mammoth Lord, you could add a gore attack in as well, putting you up to 8 attacks. By level 5 you could buy this, but it'd be pretty expensive.

Sadly adding a tentacle doesn't help, and tentacle is just a dumb discovery, and I can't think of a way off the top of my head to add a tail whip to all that, which is crazy, because Lizardfolk even have a tail in their description. Still, 8 attacks by level 5, possibly all getting sneak attack, is definitely a TO strategy, since nothing is going to be able to take 24d6 plus evertyhing else by that point. Still, it's fun to dream...

MightyPirate

2013-09-16, 01:52 AM

Raven777

2013-09-19, 07:00 AM

wart monkey

Now there's coffee in my keyboard. :smallfrown:

Also, the paizo forums community seem to have a different take (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q5sb?Feral-Mutagen-Claws-as-Secondary-Attacks-with) on our Vestigial Arms shenanigans, though I tend to believe their interpretation of the rules is lunatic raving.

MightyPirate

2013-09-19, 12:28 PM

Meh, even if vestigial arm doesn't work with multiweapon fighting it doesn't really change much. Natural attacks probably are just the best way to got on a vivisectionist, even if you have multiweapon fighting and multiattack you have to eat a -2 to your attacks.

You're already at reduced BaB and while this combo could debatably net you an extra two attack I don't know that it's worth it for the two discoveries and two feats on top of a -10% to hit on all your attacks.

That being said one arm is still useful for buckler use (masterwork and then enchant to negate penalties and actually make it useful) and pulling out alchemical items, extracts, or what have you. Most of the things you might want the arm for don't make attacks anyway so you don't lose your buckler's bonus anyway. This is just one nice perk extractions have over spells.

I do admit however that if you can't give the arms extra attacks somehow I'm a bit baffled as to why you would ever need more than three arms.

It's a bit discouraging that the two classes (Alchemist and Summoner) that can make use of multiweapon fighting generally don't because it's just not a good option for them next to natural attacks. This is discouraging partially because Multiweapon fighting is bounds better than two weapon fighting, and partially because the rogue (a pet favorite of mine no matter how badly he sucks) would kill for this option and it's only available as a Kasatha.

N. Jolly

2013-09-20, 05:23 AM

Just played my first witch a few days ago and I feel compelled to mention your Tumor Familiar seems a might undervalued to me. Far as I can tell the Witch has the most useless familiar in terms of options (harder to get a bonded item instead) and losing it loses your spellbook.

By contrast the Alchemist gets to pass on better saves, bab, and hit points. Easy access to alchemical items for your cancerous pal to toss around is golden, as is UMD. Even without improved familiar you have double dipping on knowledges and perception rolls.

The valet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/valet-familiar-archetype) is crazy awesome. Even discounting everything else he does the teammate screams for Hyde builds. Escape route senanigans (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pjug?All-about-the-familiar) are great for brutal hyde to stroll into flanking and if a tiny critter can threaten 5ft with a reach weapon then controller hyde will love tandem trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tandem-trip-combat-teamwork).

I also am thinking the Preservationist becomes one of the best summoners available with Infusion and a familiar buddy. Let the wart monkey release your summons for you so you can use your actions to throw a bomb, rip someone's face off, or take a nap.

After you brought this up, I did a bit of searching on familiars and such, and sadly T. Familiars can only be small. It seems according to the official rules, monkeys cannot throw items or manipulate wands (the latter being because of a lack of ability to speak, which I'm okay with), making them less than useful for this task. Since they're not able to wield weapons (and there's still an argument as to if wielding a spear lets a monkey attack out to 5ft and threaten, or if doubling its reach still leaves it at 0ft), it also fails at that role.

I'l admit giving a monkey a spear seems awesome myself, and that it should be able to throw, but at least by official rules, the thing can't throw items, so that reason is out. Even if it wasn't, it'd really only work for a preservationist. It's just a huge circle of stupid, really.

Now there's coffee in my keyboard. :smallfrown:

Also, the paizo forums community seem to have a different take (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q5sb?Feral-Mutagen-Claws-as-Secondary-Attacks-with) on our Vestigial Arms shenanigans, though I tend to believe their interpretation of the rules is lunatic raving.

The Paizo boards are more infamous for people who don't know how to think outside the box, and view anything other than a Sword and Board Fighter as "too broken" for the game, so I'm not taking much stock in what they're saying until I get an official response about this.

I'd rather not let such craziness lead people to make a worse character, although it's not like the vivisectionist needs much help.

Hey guys, let's just all be jerks and throw on two Boot Blades, a Dwarven Boulder Helmet (bonus points if you can make it into a Helm of the Mammoth Lords to give you a gore attack too), a Barbazu Beard, Armor Spikes, and two Thorn Bracers (they state they'll let you make an offhand attack if you aren't wielding a weapon or shield in them, which you're not.) I think since we're losing the daggers, that'd make that helmet/-2 claw/-2 claw/-2 gore/ -2 bite/-2 boot/-2 boot/-2 beard/-2 spikes/-2 bracer/-2 bracer. If we were lucky, we'd be able to throw the two daggers onto that and make this the best day ever. Anyone have any other kind of attack we could throw on him, maybe a Tentacle Cloak for 2 more attacks for one minute a day?

Just make sure to have Quick Learner and Adopted: Arms Master and you won't be taking a non proficient penalty with any of those weapons too.

Raven777

2013-09-20, 07:06 AM

You know, putting Thorn Bracers on your two Claw arms is not a bad idea at all, even without proficiency. That's two extra attacks for 60gp, who cares if they're at -4?

EDIT 2014-11-10 : It has come to my attention that Thorn Bracers do not add extra attacks. They are merely weapons one can wield with both hands free. Therefore, related attacks are made as part of one's regular routine, not additional ones.

N. Jolly

2013-09-20, 10:38 PM

You know, putting Thorn Bracers on your two Claw arms is not a bad idea at all, even without proficiency. That's two extra attacks for 60gp, who cares if they're at -4?

Whoa, is this an idea that ISN'T strapping an ungodly amount of weapons to your body? That's just crazy!

I myself think you should be able to grow claws on your vestigial arms, although nothing says you can't use Thorn Bracers on those too. Thorn Bracers are pretty cheap. Still, being a massive spiked ball of death seems pretty damn fun.

avr

2013-09-20, 10:49 PM

N. Jolly

2013-09-20, 11:06 PM

Even if you could get a monkey familiar to wield a spear, it's not going to be proficient or have a decent strength, and it's not a finesse or trip weapon, and familiars don't have feats to use on teamwork feats. How is this a good idea?

Throwing alchemical items, now that makes sense.

Okay, I never thought Monkey Spear Fighting was going to be a big topic here. The reason for the spear is the Valet Template for familiars, which counts them as having any teamwork feats that you have. So unless they threaten, it doesn't help at all. Rules say a monkey can't throw anything, but nature cares to differ, so decide on how helpful a tumor monkey is for you.

avr

2013-09-20, 11:30 PM

Gotcha, thanks.

Raven777

2013-09-21, 07:45 AM

"Tumor Monkey" = totally a thing now?

N. Jolly

2013-09-23, 07:15 PM

Okay, according to this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9p51), the monkey can't wield a weapon (which probably includes thrown items), or wands, which makes it a bit weaker. It makes sense, but it's still kind of lame. At best, you could go Eldritch Heritage and pick up a familiar, and later evolve it to a better one, but that's a 3 feat investment, which is no small task.

MightyPirate

2013-09-26, 01:17 PM

Okay so we still have either a free reroll on perception and knowledges (not to mention a free intimidate at a -4 penalty) for a familiar that can talk.

Or a monkey to pop your imbued preserved animals.

Or just a compsognathus, scorpion or dodo for +4 initiative.

Improved Familiar opens up everything else from alchemical items, to UMD, to threatening for Tandem Trip. It would be a little pricey for a class that dumps charisma to grab Eldritch Heritage but fortunately we just need Improved Familiar because it works fine on the discovery all on its own.

Note that the pseudodragon, while largely passed over for the more popular faerie dragon, gets a free 5ft. range on his tail attack. There are also plenty of small sized options to pick from too but I prefer to stay tiny if possible.

Also it's interesting to note that one could pick up as many as 5 familiars with Witch 1, Alchemist 2, Magus 3, and Cross-Blooded Sorcerer (Arcane & Serpentine) 3. Your character would be bloody useless and he doesn't even have (Ex) Dodge Books as a class feature but the good news is you can upgrade all of your pets simultaneously with one Improved Familiar feat.

Mr. Whatever

2013-09-29, 03:40 PM

N. Jolly

2013-10-01, 03:29 AM

I think you underrated the mutagen for the Mad Bomber. The Alchemy bonus can be applied to Dex instead of strength, which makes your bombs which are ranged touch attacks hit more often. Especially at later levels when you can basically keep it up all day without even trying.

The thing is that for the most part, touch attacks aren't hard to hit. Bombers won't be investing in the higher mutagens, so they don't really ever get better than a +2 to attack roll for bombs. While that's a +2 to attack rolls, AC, and the normal +2 Natural Armor, +2 isn't a massive boost when by the mid-late levels you're probably hitting touch pretty easily. It's not worthless, but not the centerpiece that it is for the Hyde side.

Also I don't know how practical it is, but the Alchemical Zombie discovery clearly states "Zombies that are created in this manner count as undead created by animate dead for the purposes of determining how many undead the alchemist can control." which I think is pretty straightforward in letting you control your zombies. Plus you can probably convince you DM to let you count them as alchemical zombies variation.

I'd really like to get a direct quote on this myself. Also out of the two main undead templates, skeletal is generally the one you'd choose, since it doesn't destroy the natural attack routine of its target. Even Alchemical Zombies aren't anything to write home about. You're going to need them Fast before they start being a real threat, unless you're just bringing back T-Rexes. Zombies just aren't ideal as undead when skeletons are around. If you get auto control, I suppose this would go orange.

Plus, while Breath Weapon bomb might not be ideal, it does mean you can get in some damage as a bomber without provoking attacks of opportunity, which can be great if you have an enemy up in your face.

Not being able to combine it with other things really kinda kills it for me. If you could do this with a bomb and Alchemical Weapon from the Grenadier to manage to expand your alchemic weapon supply, I might like it. But for most games I've been in, swarms of smaller things are rarely the norm, so this falls short to me. It's situational to a point that I'm not comfortable recommending.

Mr. Whatever

2013-10-01, 04:14 PM

Well I disagree about the others, but to each their own.

As for the zombie;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/alchemical-zombie-su

Raven777

2013-10-21, 10:45 PM

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-10-21, 11:41 PM

Our friend, B. Hyde? I found him a portrait (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130129011843/marveldatabase/images/c/c7/Curt_Conners_(Earth-1610)_from_Ultimate_Spider-Man_Vol_1_60.jpg). And I found him a theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAJR-KSQUw).

The new Spider Man movie had the Lizard as pretty much an alchemist; he even makes a bomb at one point.

The guide is really useful! However, I don't get why tentacle was rated red. It does pretty much everything a vestigial arm can do, and gives you an option to grapple without provoking.. I am also disappointed you covered barely a third of the Master Chymist; its a really fun PrC. Especially since it give you basically 2-5+1 uses of mutagen.

Clegane

2013-10-23, 10:29 PM

This is a great guide. Thanks!

I am intrigued, though, about why you would rate Improved Initiative as a Blue and Tumor Familiar as only an Orange.

Using the Tumor Familiar as a Greensting Scorpion grants you a +4 to Initiative, as well as the Alertness feat, rerolls on some skill checks, and a possible scout. The Imp Init feat only grants you the same +4 to init without the extra benefits, but you ranked it substantially higher than the Tumor discovery.

What was your rationale for this? Or was it merely an oversight?

Whatever the case, I love the guide and appreciate you putting in the time and effort.

Crasical

2013-10-24, 12:18 PM

Vivisectionist shenanigans.

Anthropomorphic Animal raises intelligence to 3, only works on Animals.
Awaken doesn't work on creatures with an int of 3 or greater, changes type to Magical Beast
Baleful Polymorph doesn't seem to change the creature's type at all.

I know the 'big selling point' of the archetype is sneak attack, but Moreau-esque evil biologist shenanigans is the theme of the day for vivisectionists. It makes me sad you can't turn someone you hate into a monkey and then anthropomorphize that monkey into your butler, or anthropomorphize and then awaken a Tyrannosaurus as a bodyguard.

EDIT:
I also feel I need to call you out on the Trench Fighter.
That archetype is printed in the 'Rasputin Must Die' module of Reign of Winter, to represent 20th century soldiers. It's entirely inappropriate for most pathfinder games.

masterjoda99

2013-10-31, 03:00 AM

magotter

2013-10-31, 07:35 AM

How well would it work out to have a mostly B. Hyde style alchemist using the beastmorph archetype, but not vivisectionist archetype, so as to pick up some bombs for greater control? I say B. Hyde 'cuz it'd still be primarily ripping faces off with feral mutagen, but I'd want some control bombs like Frost Bomb and Confusion Bomb handy to supplement, but not using a longspear.

Also, recommended feats for a controlling B. Hyde?

This is pretty much what I did for my Hyde, Evander Signus (http://solecistus.pbworks.com/w/page/68255376/Evander).

Dex-based, and gear dependent only on his Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, but I pump out tons of damage while utilizing my bombs for controll between Dispel and Confusion. Human for theming reasons (it's a Cheliax campaign), but almost any race could work here since I only used my bonus feat for Improved Initiative. It's a great feat, but not build-critical. I also dipped Urban Barb 1 for the Dex-based Rage. It doesn't bolster Con, but it also doesn't penalize AC, and I can still use normal rage too if I want.

For a quick breakdown of the character, see here:
Base Stats (20-PB): Str 14, Dex 16+2, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12,. Cha 7
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Reactionary, Auspicious Tattoo
Drawback: Meticulous
Racial Feat: Improved Initiative
(1) Barb 1 (Urban Barbarian), Feat: Weapon Finesse
(2) Alch 1 (Beastmorph)
(3) Alch 2, Discovery: Feral Mutagen, Feat: Piranha Strike
(4) Alch 3
(5) Alch 4, Discovery: Tumor Familiar (Hedgehog), Feat: Extra Rage
(6) Alch 5
(7) Alch 6, Discovery: Dispelling Bomb, Feat: Extra Discovery (Wings)
(8) Alch 7
(9) Alch 8, Discovery: Fast Bombs, Feat: Extra Discovery (Confusion Bomb)
(10) Alch 9
(11) Alch 10, Discovery: Force Bombs, Feat: Arcane Strike
(12) Alch 11
(13) Alch 12, Discovery: Greater Mutagen, Feat: ????
Recommended Gear: Spring-loaded wrist sheaths, Iron vials, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Item of INT+2, Item of Saves+X,

Now your mileage may vary; the game character is from started at level 6, so I didn't need to worry about the order of build as much. If starting low you might want to swap Tumor Familiar for Frost Bomb to gain some Field Control. I like Tumor Familiar for theming reasons, and because the combination of gaining +4 to Perception & Sense Motive and +2 to my milquetoast Will Save is a nice little package. I've also found that about 12-15 rounds of Rage is enough for each day. Every combat takes at least 1 round of buffing, as I quaff a mutagen and one other potion (Love those spring-loaded wrist sheaths), So between my current amount of 11 rounds of Rage available to me (4 Base, +1 Con, +6 Feat) I find that I can make that last. Rarely does combat last more than 4 or 5 rounds total. Again, your mileage may vary.

Also, in disregard to Jolly's advice, while Fly might be better than the Wings discovery overall, I don't like having to spend an action and a spell slot to activate it. Plus it, too, fits well with the character's theme.

AC is through the roof as well: It's good to remember that Shield enhancement bonuses and Armor enhancement bonuses stack in pathfinder, unlike 3.5, so I nabbed a Deflection Ring, mundane clothes with a +3 Enhancement (no Max Dex penalty), Bracers of Armor, and a Darkwood Buckler with an Enhancement Bonus too. You save money by spreading out the AC stacking. A +1 Deflection Ring, +1 Enhancement to Armor, +1 Natural AC ring, and +1 Shield Enhancement gives +4 AC and costs significantly less than a +4 Bonus on any one AC type.

I spend my combat by quaffing a mutagen and one other potion. To start it was Reduce Person, but I ended up getting that Permanent-ized. At the moment (Level 1) it's Barkskin. Next Level, it'll start being Haste. After that, I either fast-lob some Confusion Bombs or rush up and turn on the blender. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Being small might have reduced my Natural Attacks from 1d6->1d4 and 1d4->1d3, but the bonus Dex not only makes up the damage (guarantees it, in fact, since its not dice based), but gives me +1 to Attack and +2 & +4 to Fly and Stealth, respectively. being a B. Hyde might have turned me into a 2-trick pony debuffing and killing machine, but I'm very, very good at what I do.

N. Jolly

2013-11-10, 02:51 PM

Due to new FAQ rulings on vestigial limb, I'm going to have to change the B. Hyde build, as well as having to change my rating of confusion bomb since it now has a save and is considerably worse. I'm not at a point where I can alter it now since my comp died, but I'll try to get to it soon. Barb guide is still on the way, and as always, comments about this guide are welcomed.

I have a lot to respond to here so I'll try to get on that soon, and thanks to everyone who liked or responded to the guide.

Raven777

2013-11-10, 04:17 PM

What new FAQ ruling?

EDIT : Oh, look at the obvious rules patch (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) that reeks of MMO-style rebalancing. This coupled with last month's attempt at screwing with free actions is pretty disconcerting.

It's ok. I can still use bladed boots on my frigging feet and pretend nothing happened. Or just put these Thorn Bracers to use. Or just point out I already could Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw/Bite mixing feet and claws for 5 attacks and move on like nothing happened. Thank you Sean K. Reynolds (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7&page=3?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#104) :D

N. Jolly

2013-11-10, 05:18 PM

The new Spider Man movie had the Lizard as pretty much an alchemist; he even makes a bomb at one point.

The guide is really useful! However, I don't get why tentacle was rated red. It does pretty much everything a vestigial arm can do, and gives you an option to grapple without provoking.. I am also disappointed you covered barely a third of the Master Chymist; its a really fun PrC. Especially since it give you basically 2-5+1 uses of mutagen.

At this point, I kind of hate both but Tentacle just stepped up a bit since the free grapple is nice. I might bump it a bit to orange at least.

As for Master Chymist, it just doesn't do much beyond what I listed. The first 3 levels are basically the show, so if you're staying on past thing it's just for more Mutate/Brutality, and do I really need to review that?

This is a great guide. Thanks!

I am intrigued, though, about why you would rate Improved Initiative as a Blue and Tumor Familiar as only an Orange.

Using the Tumor Familiar as a Greensting Scorpion grants you a +4 to Initiative, as well as the Alertness feat, rerolls on some skill checks, and a possible scout. The Imp Init feat only grants you the same +4 to init without the extra benefits, but you ranked it substantially higher than the Tumor discovery.

What was your rationale for this? Or was it merely an oversight?

Whatever the case, I love the guide and appreciate you putting in the time and effort.

From the way that I read the Tumor Familiar Feat, it didn't give you the bonuses of the familiar type that you had, which would be the +4 Initiative, so without that or the monkey shenanigoats of which we all loved so much, it lacked a purpose. I might up rate it a bit, especially if I can get confirmation that you do get the other bonus. But until then, it's not great.

Really dreading redoing the Drake Exle Build, but whatever, that guy is getting thorn bracers because Paizo took away my special arms.

That and Confusion Bomb is dead to me, especially due to the mess of rulings involved in it.

Raven777

2013-11-10, 05:48 PM

Really dreading redoing the Drake Exle Build, but whatever, that guy is getting thorn bracers because Paizo took away my special arms.

Technically, our lizard still works (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7&page=3?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#104).

Without Vestigial arms, he could still kick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack) for a Unarmed Strike / Unarmed Strike / Claw / Claw / Bite routine. That's 5 attacks.

With Vestigial Arms, he can equip weapons and Stab / Stab / Claw / Claw / Bite. Still 5 attacks.

As I linked, Sean K. Reynolds just fixed the entire problem in the breath of a single post, and probably enabled much worse with other builds...

As for Thorn Bracers, it dawned on me that they do not give their wielder additional attacks. They merely allow regular attacks while keeping hands free to hold other objects.

Which means that... do we even need Vestigial Arms? We can just pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Thorn Bracers) and just Bracer / Bracer / Claw / Claw / Bite our way to victory. Wait. I think there's a rule somewhere that you cannot use the same limb for manufactured and natural attacks. Don't know where that rule is though. We could, however, use bladed boots...

N. Jolly

2013-11-10, 10:26 PM

EDIT:
I also feel I need to call you out on the Trench Fighter.
That archetype is printed in the 'Rasputin Must Die' module of Reign of Winter, to represent 20th century soldiers. It's entirely inappropriate for most pathfinder games.

Sorry, forgot to reply to this. There's basically NO point in normal PF that the Trench Fighter should be played with that particular caveat, and considering how armor and firearms work, Fighters would be a crappy class to even have being fired against. But the archetype does still exist, and it's an option, which I'm listing.

Even I don't think it's worth taking 3 levels out myself to make guns work (aside from some sweet gun traits), and you'd have a better chance of playing a "Guns Everywhere" campaign in which the Trench Fighter would be allowed, making the one level dip into Gunslinger WAY better. But for base PF in which the GM hasn't banned it, it's still the best way to get dex to gun damage.

N. Jolly

2013-11-15, 05:36 PM

B. Hyde (Drake Exle) build retooled, now abusing thorn bracers because why the hell not? New opinions on old discoveries finished, and might look through "Mythic Origins" to add the new mythic powers there to the list.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, I will not be adding the Mythic Origins powers because they are stupid.

Rowe13

2013-11-16, 05:53 PM

Nighskulk (Wererat kin) from Blood of the Moon look like fantastic alchemists. They get +2 Dex and Int and -2 Wis. One of their abilities grants them the Distraction monster ability which makes everything they hurt potentially nauseated. It looks awesome.

N. Jolly

2013-11-17, 12:26 AM

There's quite a few things that Blood of the Night has given me, including a race with a natural gore attack, which may mean that the B. Hyde build is getting a bit of a tune up. The book introduced a lot of content that I plan on absorbing into this and my Barbarian guide.

Cranthis

2013-11-17, 12:44 AM

My friend has found a way to make tons of Cure light wounds potions using eschew materials. From what I've heard, he creates 2 potions a round. Is this even possible?

N. Jolly

2013-11-17, 12:54 AM

My friend has found a way to make tons of Cure light wounds potions using eschew materials. From what I've heard, he creates 2 potions a round. Is this even possible?

That feat affect spellcasting. You are not a spellcaster. I don't know how he's doing this, but no, it's not possible. It's not in the realm of what an alchemist can do.

BuncyTheFrog

2013-11-20, 10:36 AM

N. Jolly

2013-11-21, 07:03 PM

Hey, thanks for writing this guide; it's been really beneficial for me in building my Alchemist. I've got a question, however:

With Combine Extracts, you note: "...you can buy this Discovery, making it even harder to validate taking this."

How? At first I thought it was the Hybridization Funnel, but that explicitly only works with alchemical splash weapons.

No prob, I almost forgot about this item but here's the item in question

5,000 GP Admixture Vial (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) This is okay since it basically gives you a free discovery, but the issue with having it work just like Combine Extract limits its use.

Glad the guide has helped you out, let me know if you need any more advice.

Chelios

2013-11-27, 04:00 AM

I'm playing a goblin madbomber but at lv 5th i nave only 9 bombs, 4 from int + 5 from classe level. Many time i become useless in the dungeon because i go out of my bombs. So i'm thinking to change something for doing somethimg after hte bomba end.

So i'm thiking to pick the beastmorph archetype and something like weapon finesse and piranha strike for melee or i can go for the moonlight stalker with the smoke bomb. And with agile amulet of mighty fists i can deal a lot of damage.

My stata are:
Str 12 - 2 racial = 10
Dex 16 + 4 racial = 20
Cos 14
Int 17 + 1 4th lv = 18
Sag 14
Che 10 - 2 racial = 8

I can change everything except the ability scores. I d like to play the mad scientist. In the party we are a paladin, a synthetist and a monk.
Any advice?

magotter

2013-11-27, 08:19 AM

I'm playing a goblin madbomber but at lv 5th i nave only 9 bombs, 4 from int + 5 from classe level. Many time i become useless in the dungeon because i go out of my bombs. So i'm thinking to change something for doing somethimg after hte bomba end.......

Best recommendation? get a bow.

I mostly say this because it looks like your party is well set for melee damage (all three other party members are frontline types). You're already used to doing damage at range with bombs, and while it sucks to run out, it's pretty much an inevitability with any bomber build.

And now, I say bow for a few reasons. Primarily is that a bow stacks well with your current stat array and play style: Stay in the back, lob the hurt at the foes. Secondly because it has good synergy with what a bomber ought to be about in many instances: Doing damage, but being happy to sacrifice damage for fantastic crowd control. Freeze/Confuse/Force/Etc. Bombs all let you corral and tangle up your foes so that the meleemancers in the party can beat on them. And arrows are great for that.

Just look at the variety of arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) you can purchase. A lot of really neat and interesting little effects (tanglefoot and trip being personal favorites). Now I'm sure you're saying how expensive they are, but consider that for about the same price as that Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, you can get an Effecient Quiver and use the creation rules to add on the Abundant Ammo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) spell (alternately get a bow with the Endless Ammo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/endless-ammunition) ability, though this is more expensive).

Now all those costly arrows can be used ad infinitum, and you need only buy one of each. Better yet, if you take ranks in Craft (Fletching) you should realistically be able to craft them yourself for half price. And if you have a (reasonable) DM he should also let you give them higher DCs based on your craft check.*

*Note: I can't find any rules on improving the Save DC of crafted items anywhere for PF. I vaguely recall there being one for 3.5 that allowed you to raise the craft DC in order to raise the Save DC, but damned if I can recall where that was from.

Even better, an Alternative to all this: You are an alchemist. You have Craft (Alchemy). You get a massive bonus to this. You have the keen ability to make all a right ton of items quickly and cheaply. There is no reason for you to not be lobbing backpacks full of Alchemical Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons) and Creations (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances) at your enemies. Plus with Admixture Vials, Hybridization Funnels, and all kinds of goodies that N. Jolly mentions, it should be amazingly easy to make every manner of damaging and hindering concoction under the sun.

And all this, ALL of this can be yours for less than the cost of a +3 Cloak of Resistance.

Chelios

2013-11-27, 09:16 AM

Best recommendation? get a bow.

I mostly say this because it looks like your party is well set for melee damage (all three other party members are frontline types). You're already used to doing damage at range with bombs, and while it sucks to run out, it's pretty much an inevitability with any bomber build.

And now, I say bow for a few reasons. Primarily is that a bow stacks well with your current stat array and play style: Stay in the back, lob the hurt at the foes. Secondly because it has good synergy with what a bomber ought to be about in many instances: Doing damage, but being happy to sacrifice damage for fantastic crowd control. Freeze/Confuse/Force/Etc. Bombs all let you corral and tangle up your foes so that the meleemancers in the party can beat on them. And arrows are great for that.

Just look at the variety of arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) you can purchase. A lot of really neat and interesting little effects (tanglefoot and trip being personal favorites). Now I'm sure you're saying how expensive they are, but consider that for about the same price as that Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, you can get an Effecient Quiver and use the creation rules to add on the Abundant Ammo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) spell (alternately get a bow with the Endless Ammo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/endless-ammunition) ability, though this is more expensive).

Now all those costly arrows can be used ad infinitum, and you need only buy one of each. Better yet, if you take ranks in Craft (Fletching) you should realistically be able to craft them yourself for half price. And if you have a (reasonable) DM he should also let you give them higher DCs based on your craft check.*

*Note: I can't find any rules on improving the Save DC of crafted items anywhere for PF. I vaguely recall there being one for 3.5 that allowed you to raise the craft DC in order to raise the Save DC, but damned if I can recall where that was from.

Even better, an Alternative to all this: You are an alchemist. You have Craft (Alchemy). You get a massive bonus to this. You have the keen ability to make all a right ton of items quickly and cheaply. There is no reason for you to not be lobbing backpacks full of Alchemical Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons) and Creations (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances) at your enemies. Plus with Admixture Vials, Hybridization Funnels, and all kinds of goodies that N. Jolly mentions, it should be amazingly easy to make every manner of damaging and hindering concoction under the sun.

And all this, ALL of this can be yours for less than the cost of a +3 Cloak of Resistance.

Ty for all. Bit with this i need anorher feat for thw profency with bow, AMD i don't Luke the granadier archetypew becauae it losts brew potion, and i dont' Luke helf elves and and elves in general. Probably i have to go for human, but how chemge my star?

N. Jolly

2013-11-27, 02:36 PM

Ty for all. Bit with this i need anorher feat for thw profency with bow, AMD i don't Luke the granadier archetypew becauae it losts brew potion, and i dont' Luke helf elves and and elves in general. Probably i have to go for human, but how chemge my star?

A lot of good work from magotter there.

As for bow prow, remember either Heirloom Weapon or Hunter's Eye traits. Take a drawback and you can pick up either and have a bow (with possibly doubled range)

I'll admit that losing Brew Potion hurts, but as an archer it's hard to find a better archetype to put down ranged pain without blowing your load on bombs too early.

Chelios

2013-11-27, 03:59 PM

A lot of good work from magotter there.

As for bow prow, remember either Heirloom Weapon or Hunter's Eye traits. Take a drawback and you can pick up either and have a bow (with possibly doubled range)

I'll admit that losing Brew Potion hurts, but as an archer it's hard to find a better archetype to put down ranged pain without blowing your load on bombs too early.

Ty, i m writing a build.

Can i suggest a better colour for skinsed? http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9675.msg412599#msg412599

RFLS

2013-11-27, 04:25 PM

A note on the Hybridization Funnel: While the item states that a mixture cannot be added to another mixture, it does not say that another splash weapon cannot be added to the mixture. The mixture otherwise qualifies for everything the Hybridization Funnel does, meaning that you can mix a mixture and a pure alchemical item, repeatedly, if you wish.

Disclaimer: This might get a book tossed at you.

CSeiberlin

2013-11-28, 02:29 AM

Don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Ward the Faithful (inquisitor 3) seems like decent potion fodder. +2 deflection to AC and +2 resistance to saves at base at 10 min\level that caps out at +4\+4 at level 18.

[Hrm...] and now I'm not entirely certain it works after doing a quick search....Magic Circle potions were in 3.5 but I found one thread where apparently the aren't allowed because they have no target line (despite emanating from 'creature touched'). I can't find anything in the FAQ or creation rules that restricts anything but personal range spells and the fact the imbiber is both the caster and target. Might be that it's late and I'm not grokking this.

As far as a magic item trick\combo (that doesn't necessarily play nice with others) is the Goz Mask (see through smoke) and the Eversmoking Bottle. While a few critters do have blindsight\sense or tremorsense, with the clarified ruling on total concealment a Grenadier should be able to deny a target their dex mod while shooting at them concealed (with alchemical arrows or otherwise) within the smoke cloud.

I suppose a smokestick or two would work just as well (without blanketing as wide of an area). If the alchemist had UMD'd a 1st level Wand of Unseen Servant and readied one or two servants to light smokesticks on command...it saving some action economy and still cover about a 10' by 20' area of concealment. It would help mitigate the alchemist's BAB in a number of cases. Granted the same tactic with a rogue archer might be a more reliable way to get sneak attack at range.

Chelios

2013-11-28, 05:11 AM

Can a monkey familiar use your infusione extract?

CSeiberlin

2013-11-28, 04:07 PM

Can a monkey familiar use your infusione extract?

If it's an infusion, absolutely. Whether it affects both you and the familiar via the 'Share Spells' might be a bit wonky dependent if your familiar is a tumor familiar or obtained via another class.

A tumor familiar can share extracts\infusions and spells, RAW a normal familiar may not be able to (or for a PFS game).

Tumor Familiar (Ex): The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist's caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist's familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist's extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

RAI I seem to remember a post by the alchemist creator something along the lines that the alchemists alternate casting method wasn't meant to disqualify them from the item creation feats and other 'caster level' dependent feats but what...3 years out... they still haven't fixed it. Despite the fact the 2 of the Carrion Crown AP writers wrote alchemists with crafting feats they couldn't qualify for. If this is a normal familiar gain via another class you'll have ask your DM.

masterjoda99

2013-12-01, 06:40 PM

I've been playing a lot of Lego Marvel Superheroes lately, which gives me inspiration for an alchemist. Essentially, how would one go about making the Lizard as an alchemist (scientist who goes crazy and turns into a giant lizard as a result of a serum)

Wartsnall

2013-12-07, 07:21 AM

B. Hyde
Harrison Zahhak
Male Ragebred (Skinwalker) Beastmorph/Vivisectionist 5
NE Medium humanoid (Shapeshifter)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10

AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
HP 42 (5d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +6

Speed 30 ft.
Melee Gore +6 (1d6+8) or Gore +6 (1d6+6), Bite +6 (1d8+6), 2 Claws +6 (1d6+6) 2 Hooves +6 (1d4+6)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +3d6, mutagen (+4 Str, –2 Int, +2 natural armor, 50 minutes)
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 5nd)
1st-Enlarge Person x2, Cure Light Wounds, True Strike, Anticipate Peril
2nd-Invisibility, Bull's Strength

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Extra Feature, Power Attack, Arcane Strike
Traits Armor Expert, Tiger's Charge, Sargarvan Guard
Drawback Xenophobic
Favored Class Bonus HP
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +15, Disable Device +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Perception +10, Spellcraft +10
Discoveries Feral Mutagen, Infusion
Gear Mwk Breastplate,Belt of Giant's Strength +2 , Cloak of Resistance +2, Hybridization Funnel, Mwk Light Crossbow 600 GP

Design Notes
Harrison here is rocking 6 primary natural attacks (some may argue hooves as a secondary attack) which is just ugly. The guy lacks any flaws, and even comes with an SLA to power his Arcane Strike, which is using a swift action you don't need elsewhere. The level of hurt this character can put down is supernatural, although thanks to his stellar natural attack routine, he's unable to get much out of transformation based extracts.

With all of these attacks putting out so much damage, picking up an AOMF is basically the next thing on your shopping list as you're doing 3(1d4+6 +3d6) if you can get them all to land, which is a blender. Consider Hammer the Gap when you qualify to make sure all your other natural attacks hit as well. I doubt I'd use this build in an actual game, but once it gets pounce...game over.

Firstly, let me start by saying how amazing a resource this guide has been in helping my build my Alchemist. I do have some questions in regards to the B. Hyde example build, which I'm hopeful someone can answer.

1. Where does the medium armor proficiency come from?
2. The gore attack that you have listed requires Wereboar kin, but the trait Tiger's Claw (which I think is what you are driving at with Tiger's Charge) requires Weretiger kin.

Clearing this up would help me with a similar build - Thanks!

N. Jolly

2013-12-23, 05:18 AM

N. Jolly

2013-12-24, 06:13 PM

Went through, updated a few things, added most of the relevant content from Blood of Night, fixed Harrison Zahhak, and basically did a once over of the whole thing, including being turned onto Brew Fleshcrafter Poison, which is freaking insane.

Also expanded a little on the poison section, listing some of my faves to help poison your opponents.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays all, and hope this guide helps you out!

Zionara

2014-01-04, 06:56 PM

N. Jolly

2014-01-05, 08:24 PM

Multiweapon fighting is a NPC feat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html), and can't be taken by player characters.
Im also quite sure that existing Primary natural attacks a race may have are not stacked with primary natural attacks gained by Feral Mutagen. A tooty half-orc will not get 2 bite attacks, catfolk will not get 4 claw attack.
-If you have both natural attacks and manufactured attacks, you can use both as part of a Full Attack action, but you cannot use any part of your body for more than one attack (i.e. If you're holding an axe in your pincers, you can attack either with the axe or with the pincers, not both. If you have a one-handed axe in one pincer and the other pincer free, you can make one attack with the axe and one with the pincer), and the natural attack is made as a secondary attack.
A secondary attack is made at BAB -5

Overall a nice guide though, thanks :smallbiggrin:

If we're getting technical here, it's a "monster" feat, not an NPC feat. And as V stated before, "We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere."

I don't know where you read that I said that they stacked, I don't have a half orc with two bite attacks, or cat folk letting off some extra claws, and all of my natural attack builds only have natural attacks, which makes all listed primary attacks continue to work as primary (Claws, Gore, Bite), which with the Zahhak build is including the hooves as secondary (as per the suggestions in the bestiary), so I'm not multihanding anything.

I am aware of the rules for multiple hands/attacks, even if my rant about "the ball of death" lead you to believe otherwise. Glad you enjoyed the rest of the guide though.

N. Jolly

2014-01-17, 12:48 AM

I'd rarely update the guide for one trait, but this is a trait that literally invalidates everything the Rogue could ever hope to compete with.

Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder)

RIP, PF Rogue

Sayt

2014-01-17, 02:36 AM

IDK, the magical traps thing is nice, but the Rogue still gets 1/2 rogue levels to Disable Device checks.

That said, the Slayer second iteration could also get it as a slayer talent.

N. Jolly

2014-01-17, 06:15 PM

IDK, the magical traps thing is nice, but the Rogue still gets 1/2 rogue levels to Disable Device checks.

That said, the Slayer second iteration could also get it as a slayer talent.

It did, but it also had the niche of being the only one who could disable magical traps. Pumping D. Device to deal with magical trap DCs isn't going to be super hard, so this basically took away the last thing that made the Rogue special and threw it into a fire. Also tons of archetypes got it too, but now it's as simple as a trait to get it, meaning everyone can regardless of class. Considering a trait is considered 1/2 a feat, that's the level of power that should be considered for trap finding as an ability without the inherent bonus to perception/d. device.

On a side note, I need to find out a few things about monkey familiars, such as if they can drink potions/extracts, and are considered to have hands for the purpose of wearing gloves. If both of these turn out to be true, then I will never make a character without a tumor familiar again.

Sayt

2014-01-17, 09:17 PM

N. Jolly

2014-01-18, 12:00 AM

According to Animal Archive, Animal companions of the "Biped(hands)"type, (Which includes Ape and Baboon ACs and Monkey Familiars) get all the item slots humanoids do. As for extracts.... if they have the int to be told to?

Bless you sir. Due to thinks, I may have to write an entire section on how a Monkey Tumor Familiar is the best discovery an Alchemist can ever have for self buffing.

Part one of this is a TMF with Poisoner's Gloves which allow it to double buff its master with no actions (TWF with the gloves touch attacks against a willing opponent) and the other is how share spells works with a familiar drinking an extract, as from the entry itself

An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells.

That right there should mean that our monkey can drink an extract and have it effect our Alchemist, making sure they don't have to burn their own actions to buff themselves, which is Tex Mex Sexy. With Empathetic Link, you can let your 6+ int familiar know when to down an extract (as long as the familiar is on your person) to feed you the effects, which even works fluff wise due to it being a part of you. I'll need confirmation on this second part, but even without it, an injector Monkey would be pretty damn incredible.

I might have to look up how an injection spear would interact with this to really amp up the buff potential.

SamsDisciple

2014-01-18, 06:55 AM

mackaber

2014-01-20, 03:53 AM

Hey thanks for the guide it's been very useful in building an Alchemist a class I wish I hadn't overlooked for so long.

That right there should mean that our monkey can drink an extract and have it effect our Alchemist, making sure they don't have to burn their own actions to buff themselves, which is Tex Mex Sexy. With Empathetic Link, you can let your 6+ int familiar know when to down an extract (as long as the familiar is on your person) to feed you the effects, which even works fluff wise due to it being a part of you. I'll need confirmation on this second part, but even without it, an injector Monkey would be pretty damn incredible.

I might have to look up how an injection spear would interact with this to really amp up the buff potential.

However referring to your above quote I totally don't get how share spell is supposed to allow your monkey to buff you. For convenience sake here's the rules text for share spell.

Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Everything I read says the Wizard (replace with Alchemist) may cast personal buffs on his familiar. Why should the familiar in turn be able to buff the Alchemist?

However with the preservationist and the Infusion Discovery we are in business. Swift action summoning once per round? Slap on Vivisectionist and flanky friends are going on a rampage...

N. Jolly

2014-01-20, 04:04 AM

Hey thanks for the guide it's been very useful in building an Alchemist a class I wish I hadn't overlooked for so long.

However referring to your above quote I totally don't get how share spell is supposed to allow your monkey to buff you. For convenience sake here's the rules text for share spell.

Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Everything I read says the Wizard (replace with Alchemist) may cast personal buffs on his familiar. Why should the familiar in turn be able to buff the Alchemist?

However with the preservationist and the Infusion Discovery we are in business. Swift action summoning once per round? Slap on Vivisectionist and flanky friends are going on a rampage...

Actually, the relevant text I'm thinking of is here, in deliver touch spell.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

And this

An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells.

Now the idea behind this is that the monkey is delivering the extract through touching the Alchemist, which by rulings seems like it should work. Also it states that the Mutagen is considered in this as well, which would allow you to buff up through your monkey.

If this interpretation ends up failing (it seems like it's quite up to debate), the Vivi/Preservationist still works, which is still perfect.

Glad you liked the guide, I'm doing my best to maintain it as new information comes out that could possibly be of use, so let me know if you find anything that you think I should include (Lengthy issues with Skinsend aside)

N. Jolly

2014-01-20, 04:09 AM

I was just reading up on familiars and there is a feat that the familiar must take to be able to wear magic items but it is able to be switched out with any of the familiars starting feats as long as you choose to do so at the beginning. There are enough other feats specifically for familiars that while it is still unoptimized it sounds like a fun idea to make a touch attack sorc/wiz that sends out his familiar to deliver everything. Back on the alchemist familiars though I think it might be RAW that the familiar must take the "Extra Item Slot" familiar feat in order to wear magic equipment. Wait I just re-read it, it allows familiars to wear magic equipment not usually available to familiars with that shape... SO LETS BUFF UP THAT FAMILIAR SO IT CAN SAVE YOU OODLES OF ACTIONS!

I actually looked that up, and the feat itself states

Benefit: Choose one magic item slot not normally available to creatures with your shape. You can now use magic items in that slot.

And it seems as of the Animal Archives that was brought up earlier, Monkeys have a hand slot, so that feat isn't even needed. And let's not forget the Valet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/valet-familiar-archetype) Archetype we could throw on to help make us more of a potion/alchemical item factory. Tumor Familiar is seriously sounding better all the time.

mackaber

2014-01-20, 04:35 AM

Now the idea behind this is that the monkey is delivering the extract through touching the Alchemist, which by rulings seems like it should work. Also it states that the Mutagen is considered in this as well, which would allow you to buff up through your monkey.

I'm still a noob in regards to the Alchemist so no further suggestions for the moment.

Honestly I'm still not seeing it. Mainly for the bolded part:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.”

This assumes that a spell has to be cast by the Alchemist.

I guess you're assuming in some form of odd circular logic that imbibing an infusion is equivalent to the Alchemist casting a spell... Okay, while I'm not buying that part I can follow.

Now where is the touch coming from? It says in the familiar ability extracts are considered spells, nowhere does it say they are considered touch spells...

N. Jolly

2014-01-20, 04:43 AM

I'm still a noob in regards to the Alchemist so no further suggestions for the moment.

Honestly I'm still not seeing it. Mainly for the bolded part:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.”

This assumes that a spell has to be cast by the Alchemist.

I guess you're assuming in some form of odd circular logic that imbibing an infusion is equivalent to the Alchemist casting a spell... Okay, while I'm not buying that part I can follow.

Now where is the touch coming from? It says in the familiar ability extracts are considered spells, nowhere does it say they are considered touch spells...

Like I said, it's very muddy due to the Alchemist having such a different "casting mechanic", so it's hard to say if it's

-Alchemist drinks, and then his familiar hold's the drink's charge to discharge it later, netting him one quickened extract (totally worth it)

-Familiar drinks, considered the toucher, discharges it into the Alchemist for one quickened extract a round (double totally worth it)

Both of these are hard to call because of the fact that the Alchemist "cast" so oddly. But I find it odd myself that the bit about the shared spells and deliver touch extract are carried over with the tumor familiar, and specifically called out, meaning that there SHOULD be some form of interaction between them.

Maybe interpretation 2 is a bit too generous, I'd be fine with interpretation 1, since it's still baller for my action economy. The problem here is that there needs to be a clarification on how the whole "deliver touch spell/extract" works. Odder still is that the mutagen is also called out in this, which just seems even more confusion.

Perhaps the intention was to buff the nuggets out of your Tumor Familiar, to give it the chance to fight (it is a 3/4ths BAB familiar at the very least), and knowing Paizo, I could see that as their goal. But for now, it's very hard to see what exactly they had in mind when listing those parts to the Tumor Familiar ability.

EDIT: Just found the relevant text from the Alchemist Class feature

In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract

Thus, drinking is casting.

mackaber

2014-01-20, 04:51 AM

Like I said, it's very muddy due to the Alchemist having such a different "casting mechanic", so it's hard to say if it's

-Alchemist drinks, and then his familiar hold's the drink's charge to discharge it later, netting him one quickened extract (totally worth it)

-Familiar drinks, considered the toucher, discharges it into the Alchemist for one quickened extract a round (double totally worth it)

Both of these are hard to call because of the fact that the Alchemist "cast" so oddly. But I find it odd myself that the bit about the shared spells and deliver touch extract are carried over with the tumor familiar, and specifically called out, meaning that there SHOULD be some form of interaction between them.

Maybe interpretation 2 is a bit too generous, I'd be fine with interpretation 1, since it's still baller for my action economy. The problem here is that there needs to be a clarification on how the whole "deliver touch spell/extract" works. Odder still is that the mutagen is also called out in this, which just seems even more confusion.

Perhaps the intention was to buff the nuggets out of your Tumor Familiar, to give it the chance to fight (it is a 3/4ths BAB familiar at the very least), and knowing Paizo, I could see that as their goal. But for now, it's very hard to see what exactly they had in mind when listing those parts to the Tumor Familiar ability.

I don't see an issue with interpretation 1. However I'm not sure how long you can hold a touch if indefinetly then it's quite nice.

I actually think the point was for the familiar to be you're buff and heal slave. But the intention clearly was that you expend the standard action for casting and the familiar saves you moving to the target.

Ultimately the Valet Tumor monkey is a great deal for 1 discovery anyway you slice it. Also improved Familiar is sure to be worth it, also there are some rather definite statements on the Paizo board by developers that Imp. Tumors are fair game.

Also there's a way to give you're tiny familiar reach however it requires a 13 charisma. Get the evolved familiar feat and apply it to your familiar by applying the evolution that increases range by 5 feet. Now you have a potentially life threatening tumor...

N. Jolly

2014-01-20, 05:01 AM

I don't see an issue with interpretation 1. However I'm not sure how long you can hold a touch if indefinetly then it's quite nice.

I actually think the point was for the familiar to be you're buff and heal slave. But the intention clearly was that you expend the standard action for casting and the familiar saves you moving to the target.

Ultimately the Valet Tumor monkey is a great deal for 1 discovery anyway you slice it. Also improved Familiar is sure to be worth it, also there are some rather definite statements on the Paizo board by developers that Imp. Tumors are fair game.

Also there's a way to give you're tiny familiar reach however it requires a 13 charisma. Get the evolved familiar feat and apply it to your familiar by applying the evolution that increases range by 5 feet. Now you have a potentially life threatening tumor...

Yeah, the rules are far too muddy to make a defined call on things. Honestly Tumor Familiar is pretty insane, although I'll admit I rated it under the assumption that you couldn't improve it. If you have any relevant links to discussion of an improved tumor familiar, I'd love to see them to have some valid proof to throw in my guide.

Sadly from what we've found out, the monkey can't wield a weapon, although having it be able to threaten at all would be nice due to the team work feat ability (Not great, but meh) since we had someone earlier trying to build a team monkey tripper set up.

The idea of a tumor Imp sounds impractical to me, but it would also be amazing, and with hands, it brings up the argument of could the familiar itself simply feed you the extract. The only relevant text I'm seeing about that is taking a full round action to apply it to an unconscious target, so I might ask later on the boards is an imp on your shoulder could full round feed you an extract, which would solve the issue of Deliver Touch Spell to break the action economy (as familiars have ALWAYS been known to do)

I will admit, I've enjoyed this conversation.

mackaber

2014-01-20, 05:14 AM

Yeah, the rules are far too muddy to make a defined call on things. Honestly Tumor Familiar is pretty insane, although I'll admit I rated it under the assumption that you couldn't improve it. If you have any relevant links to discussion of an improved tumor familiar, I'd love to see them to have some valid proof to throw in my guide.

Sadly from what we've found out, the monkey can't wield a weapon, although having it be able to threaten at all would be nice due to the team work feat ability (Not great, but meh) since we had someone earlier trying to build a team monkey tripper set up.

The idea of a tumor Imp sounds impractical to me, but it would also be amazing, and with hands, it brings up the argument of could the familiar itself simply feed you the extract. The only relevant text I'm seeing about that is taking a full round action to apply it to an unconscious target, so I might ask later on the boards is an imp on your shoulder could full round feed you an extract, which would solve the issue of Deliver Touch Spell to break the action economy (as familiars have ALWAYS been known to do)

I will admit, I've enjoyed this conversation.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nana?Ultimate-Magic-Ultimate-Combat-Alchemist#4

SKR confirming tumor familiar counts as a familiar.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=224?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#11198

JJ stating that the Alchemists Class level is equal to his Caster level (a prerequisite for improved familiar).

I missed your edit on the the casting part but I'd like to weigh in on that see bolded:

In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract.

So according to this the Alchemist has to drink himself to be casting. You're argument was while familiar drinks extract the Alchemist is casting and here I disagree. If I drink a potion is the person who made the potion casting? I don't think so...

Edit: Fun fact regarding the Tumor Imp...just play a Tiefling and watch your abyssal blood finally doing some good!

N. Jolly

2014-01-20, 05:38 AM

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nana?Ultimate-Magic-Ultimate-Combat-Alchemist#4

SKR confirming tumor familiar counts as a familiar.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=224?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#11198

JJ stating that the Alchemists Class level is equal to his Caster level (a prerequisite for improved familiar).

I missed your edit on the the casting part but I'd like to weigh in on that see bolded:

In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract.

So according to this the Alchemist has to drink himself to be casting. You're argument was while familiar drinks extract the Alchemist is casting and here I disagree. If I drink a potion is the person who made the potion casting? I don't think so...

Edit: Fun fact regarding the Tumor Imp...just play a Tiefling and watch your abyssal blood finally doing some good!

The problem is how unique the casting mechanic is. The potion example really doesn't work since the potion is an item, there's no "casting" involved with it. It's consumed, no casting required. For the extract, the act of drinking it is casting it. It's getting late now but I might look up the wording for the "Infusion" discovery to get a better estimation of things...okay, just checked it,and all it says is others can imbibe the extract to full effect. I believe you'd still be the "caster" even if they drank it, as you are the source of it, and it is pulling from your reserves. The interaction here is still cloudy.

And thanks for the links, it also proved my suspicions about Internal Alchemist STILL being horrible. Guess I'm going to have to add Improved Familiar to the guide now since it's been made relevant.

N. Jolly

2014-01-23, 02:55 AM

Just came to report a death in the family. With the errata to Crane Wing (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qlnd?Crane-Wing-Errata-in-latest-printing), it has been removed as a viable suggestion from my guide, and made RED so that no one mistakes it for a real feat. I'll be keeping it unerrata'd in my games, but in official play, this feat is dead to me.

N. Jolly

2014-02-05, 10:47 PM

Added a new update to the guide espousing the value of Tumor Familiars and the necessary evil of Infusion.

deuxhero

2014-02-07, 01:45 AM

N. Jolly

2014-02-07, 10:52 PM

Brew Fleshcrafting on d20pfsrd is very incomplete. It's actually mostly meh (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicFleshcrafting.aspx) (the changes all carry heavy penalties)

edit: Crane Wing is still recomended under archetypes (sohei/master of many styles)

One of the nice part of familiars for alchemists you didn't mention is that they share your skill ranks and, unlike every other familiar getting class (besides an inquisitor of a rare domain), you are skill based. This is effectively a +2 to a lot of skills (via aid another), the option to roll again for some skills (though missing out on various bonuses), the ability to work double duty for some task (disable device) and a bunch of stuff

Yikes, thanks for the tip on Fleshcrafting, that's gone from the guide (it was on thin ice as was due to technically being 3.5)

Removed the Crane, replaced it with Snake (RIP Crane Wing)

I didn't talk about the skills because that's a pretty standard familiar thing, so I felt the information was out there already. I will admit that you're making a better skill monkey (quite literally if you want), it's still standard familiar fare, so it's not worth calling out except for the bonuses the Valet Familiar gives to you.

I wonder if a Greensting Scorpion given the Extra Item Slot feat could put Poisoner's Gloves on its claws though...I doubt it, but it'd give me the +4 to init that I've been craving as well as the abuse of said gloves...this is worth looking into...

deuxhero

2014-02-10, 03:26 AM

grarrrg

2014-02-11, 12:17 AM

GOOD NEWS! There's a NEW Alchemist PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist)!
BAD NEWS! It's HORRIBLE-RIFFIC!

Please discuss in NEW THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16971116#post16971116)! to avoid over-cluttering this one!

Also, N. Jolly, you're probably going to want to include a blurb in the PrC section about "stay away at all costs".

Sayt

2014-02-18, 12:10 AM

Rules question!

Focused Shot, Explosive Missile, and targeted bomb admixture. Do they all stack neatly?

I'm fairly sure that a fighter 1/Mindchemist 9 with focused shot can get 1d10+5d6+(Int*2) with explosive missiles, and preload his bombs as explosive missiles, but my main question is, can he active targeted bomb admixture, then while that is up, pour his daily allotment of bombs into his crossbow bolts and start plinking for 1d10+5d6+(Int*3)?

N. Jolly

2014-02-20, 02:44 AM

You listed Hunter's Eye but not Weapon Style (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Weapon%20Style) from the same source?

Most are just variants of martial weapons (many of which weren't that good anyways) with an extra, generally useless, property but you don't get martial weapons. Kusarigama (which you recommend) is an option and Sansetsukon (heavy flail with an extra useless property) is prob your best bet if you just want a beat stick (though I'd stick with the longspear's reach).

I don't know why I overlooked that. I've seen it before when I was hunting how to get EWP as a trait. I'm not sure if I want to include that, but there's a good chance I will (it'd be auto in if Kusari-gama was confirmed as Reach/Adjacent), although most monk weapons are just weird/worse martial weapons.

GOOD NEWS! There's a NEW Alchemist PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist)!
BAD NEWS! It's HORRIBLE-RIFFIC!

Please discuss in NEW THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16971116#post16971116)! to avoid over-cluttering this one!

Also, N. Jolly, you're probably going to want to include a blurb in the PrC section about "stay away at all costs".

Yeah, I saw that...what a horrible, horrible class. I'll make sure to leave a section simply to say "don't take this!", since it destroys so much and gives so little in return.

Rules question!

Focused Shot, Explosive Missile, and targeted bomb admixture. Do they all stack neatly?

I'm fairly sure that a fighter 1/Mindchemist 9 with focused shot can get 1d10+5d6+(Int*2) with explosive missiles, and preload his bombs as explosive missiles, but my main question is, can he active targeted bomb admixture, then while that is up, pour his daily allotment of bombs into his crossbow bolts and start plinking for 1d10+5d6+(Int*3)?

They would, but the issue here is that I don't think you can Focused Shot and Explosive Missile in the same round. The text from Focused Shot seems to say that it is its own standard action, just like Explosive Missile, which means they can't be used together.

I also don't think you can 'pre load' Explosive Missiles, although if you have any text that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it to tool around with that as an offensive strategy. I suppose if you could 'pre load' them this strategy would work however since Targeted Bomb Admixture would provide the extra kick.

What you could do if you were hoping to pull this off more completely is to go Grenadier, drink your TB Admixture, Explosive Missile with an Alchemical Weapon addition of Acid to the mix. If it can be effected by Holy Water (or your GM is cool with substitutions), consider throwing that on a Raining Arrow for 4x Int (Bomb+TBA+Alchemical Weapon+Raining Arrow), although this will get a bit more expensive, and requires specific gear.

You could just break the bank on Raining Arrows (hopefully filled with Acid) for your 3x Int shenanigans though.

Sayt

2014-02-20, 03:34 AM

N. Jolly

2014-02-20, 03:56 AM

With the wording on bombs on the alchemist, I think I was wrong in saying that you can preload them, as they're volatile and decay in the round they're created if not used, which is somewhat sad.

Ah well, damn oversights.

It's all good, I've learned a lot of stuff doing this guide, and proper reading can sometimes be difficult with a vaguely worded ability.

And a minor change, now that I've become SLIGHTLY more Google Doc literate, I might be moving this guide over there due to the increased space and such. It would also allow me more pictures (probably taking the place of quotes, possibly in addition to them), better formatting of some information that right now is misplaced due to the space constraints that I had doing this on a forum post (kicking myself now for those), and a few other things that I think will greatly enhance this guide.

deuxhero

2014-02-20, 06:58 PM

Pictures eh? I nominate this one.

http://i.imgur.com/n9OyuIa.jpg

N. Jolly

2014-02-20, 10:04 PM

Pictures eh? I nominate this one.

http://i.imgur.com/n9OyuIa.jpg

I would use that, but I'm sticking to a more solid FMA theme for this guide.

Speaking of which, the guide is LIVE! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hChbcEsEfQsR7NkwKlzO-GLYtrOtxlkGHpRQgKKZ5gc/edit?usp=sharing)

Technically there's some more additions I need to make to it (advancing the sample characters), but it's got everything the old guide did including a crapton more organization and ease of use through links and such.

deuxhero

2014-02-23, 05:45 PM

You mention hellknight plate a few times. It doesn't work. Hellknight Plate is already masterwork

These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate

You COULD add Comfort (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/comfort) to normal full plate to get it down to 0 ACP alongside the rest of the (still legal) shenanigans though.

One of the sample builds mentions a trait called "tiger's charge". Given his race and fact that it's the only trait with "Tiger" in the name I can find, I assume you mean "Tiger's Claw".

Also on the subject of armor: Kikko armor from UE is medium armor that doesn't require proficiency when mithiral (I'd have just said it's one of the armor types that falls under the status of "chain shirt", but UE didn't really care about consolidating stuff). 1 less armor than the breast plate, but 1 higher dex and (more importantly), lower ACP. Plus you can explicitly conceal it easily, not even light armor can do that.

N. Jolly

2014-02-23, 10:25 PM

You mention hellknight plate a few times. It doesn't work. Hellknight Plate is already masterwork

You COULD add Comfort (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/comfort) to normal full plate to get it down to 0 ACP alongside the rest of the (still legal) shenanigans though.

One of the sample builds mentions a trait called "tiger's charge". Given his race and fact that it's the only trait with "Tiger" in the name I can find, I assume you mean "Tiger's Claw".

Also on the subject of armor: Kikko armor from UE is medium armor that doesn't require proficiency when mithiral (I'd have just said it's one of the armor types that falls under the status of "chain shirt", but UE didn't really care about consolidating stuff). 1 less armor than the breast plate, but 1 higher dex and (more importantly), lower ACP. Plus you can explicitly conceal it easily, not even light armor can do that.

It was wishful thinking, and now it's changed...so long Hellknight plate...

And yeah, I was tired editing him, the trait has been fixed, and some of the other Zahhak traits were changed too. Probably would just go Comfort Armor with him, which I guess I missed in my first sweep.

Kikko armor is now added, so everything is up to date, thanks for looking it all over. And Weapon Style is also added too since I finally remembered to.

And no comments on the new formatting? I think it's crazy easy to navigate with all the book marks and such. But thanks for the insight, a few other things got changed too (any mention of crane wing), and some minor formatting issues.

deuxhero

2014-02-25, 12:19 AM

grarrrg

2014-02-25, 12:53 AM

Journal of the Beast Within (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spellbooks) is an interesting item for both types of alchemist, boosting a mutagen's power by +2, but making its penalty effect all metal scores.

Going by the wording used, this would be worthless for anyone with Greater Mutagen, as it says "chosen score increases to +6" instead of "chosen score gets an extra +2".
So it's still good for someone who doesn't plan on using Mutagen enough to grab Greater, but pointless for anyone who does.

Sayt

2014-02-25, 01:12 AM

Well, it's also an extra formula book which, I believe, comes out cheaper than buying the book, scrolls and scribing them, if I recall correctly.

N. Jolly

2014-02-26, 02:28 PM

Journal of the Beast Within (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spellbooks) is an interesting item for both types of alchemist, boosting a mutagen's power by +2, but making its penalty effect all metal scores. For brutes the use is obvious, but for others, it makes Mutagenic Touch even more painful to get hit by (useful for casters if you can hit them).

That's a hard call, seeing as you're either getting -1 to your will save that you weren't before or -1 to your bomb damage, which isn't as bad. It's a trade off that I'm not too incredibly happy with, but I can see it being useful to some people, so I'll probably include it once I finish with a few other things.

Also on the topic of the Tumor Monkey + Reach Weapon, I found some evidence that it'd work to give it a 5 foot reach (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2klag?Do-tiny-reach-weapons-provide-reach#5), so in case you want to arm the little guy, here you go.

Finally getting more work done on my Barb guide too, and might do mythic feats for Alchs later, as well as a Path Dabbler mini guide. I'm already considering an Alchemical Weapon Primer, since it's such a cool ability.

grarrrg

2014-02-26, 09:53 PM

Well, it's also an extra formula book which, I believe, comes out cheaper than buying the book, scrolls and scribing them, if I recall correctly.

While true, the books with "specials" have TWO prices listed. One for the book+spells/formulae, another for the book+spells+"Special".

Beast Within is 915 for book, 2165 for book+Bonus. So you're paying an extra 1250 for _just_ the bonus.
RAW it just isn't worth it for a dedicated Mutagen user.

deuxhero

2014-02-27, 12:00 AM

N. Jolly

2014-03-03, 03:44 PM

It combos well with the Minor Ring of Inner Fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-inner-fortitude) which is the vest of stable mutagen 1: at a lower cost 2: protects against other stuff.

Not sure if it only reduces your total penalties by 2, or takes 2 off each effect .

I'd rather not burn my ring slot for such a small benefit. It's a nice combo, but it has no proper place. Mutagen users are going to pass by it eventually on the way to Great Mutagen, and non Mutagen users aren't going to like losing all their mental stats. I could probably add it, it'd maybe be high orange/low green, but it's not something I'd recommend.

N. Jolly

2014-03-04, 06:49 PM

There, the damn guide is complete AGAIN! And this time, unless I decide to add a few things like:

-Alchemical Weapon primer
-Advancing sample characters

But considering I just finished the mythic options (not fun to do), this guide is officially complete at 80 freaking pages.

As you can see in my signature now, I'm working on a mini guide for the Synthesist Summoner, which won't be nearly of the same scope, but should help clear up a lot of issues that people seem to have with this archetype.

But as of now, this is THE definitive guide to the Alchemist class, and I'm damn proud to have made it.

RobDeBob

2014-03-06, 05:14 AM

I have four months of experience with D&D/PF/tabletop games in general, so forgive my ignorance of the game mechanics, but I wanted to ask some questions.

First: You mentioned a strategy whereby Skinsend could be inflicted upon an enemy with no saving throw. The delivery method makes sense (Touch Injection or Poisoner's Gloves with an infused extract or potion), but the rules for Skinsend note that the range of the spell is personal. Personal spells cannot be made into potions, so why should Alchemists be able to infuse a personal extract and apply it to someone else? As I understand it, Infusion is meant to allow the use of non-personal spells like Bull's Strength on another individual, but it does not overcome the "personal" range limitation. If it did, this tactic would be incredibly broken. Believe me, it sounds hilarious and I want to use it more than anything, but my DM adheres strictly to the rules.

Second: I perused all the links provided regarding the acquisition of an Improved Familiar. I took away two facts from this --

1) James Jacobs states:
Alchemist caster levels equal their alchemist level. Note we don't generally call it a "SPELLcaster level." Neither do we call it an "ELIXIRcaster level." The rules apply for all spell or spell-similar effects.
An Improved Familiar requires you to have "arcane spellcaster levels" according to d20pfsrd. Can this be equated to the "caster level" of the Alchemist (which is simply his Alchemist level)?

2) Sean Reynolds explicitly stated that a tumor familiar "counts as a familiar."

From what I can tell, the rules do indeed allow an Alchemist to obtain an Improved Familiar, provided he can fulfill one more condition: "only when you could normally acquire a new familiar." What does this mean? Is this simply fluff that you can rationalize by saying "Congratulations! Your TUMOR MONKEY has evolved into TUMOR HOMONCULUS!" after taking the feat?

Third: What is the buff delivery system for the tumor monkey mentioned in your guide? Are poisoner's gloves required, can the monkey drink the infused extract in your stead, can the monkey force the infused extract down your throat? Does the use of the infused extract count as casting a spell, effectively nullifying the huge bonus to action economy? Do we treat the infused extract as a stored spell, as a potion, or what? I read everything posted in this thread but I'm still confused about what is officially allowed by RAW.

Fourth: Besides Feral Mutagen and race selection, and while not transformed by Beast Shape/Monstrous Physique, is there any other way to obtain additional natural attacks ? Your Vivisectionist/Beastmorph example had:

Gore +6 (1d6+8) or Gore +6 (1d6+6), Bite +6 (1d8+6), 2 Claws +6 (1d6+6) 2 Hooves +1 (1d4+3)
How were each of these attacks obtained? Bite + claws from Feral Mutagen, hooves from shapeshifting? Gore from...? Mainly, I just want to know how to get more natural attacks on my Alchemist, who is human.

Thanks for taking the time to make this guide (and read this post), and again, forgive my poor grasp of the rules.

deuxhero

2014-03-06, 08:48 AM

Infusion overwrites the "Personal". It's to make up for the discovery tax of taking it.

N. Jolly

2014-03-06, 09:47 AM

I have four months of experience with D&D/PF/tabletop games in general, so forgive my ignorance of the game mechanics, but I wanted to ask some questions.

No problem, I'm glad to help with any questions you have.

First: You mentioned a strategy whereby Skinsend could be inflicted upon an enemy with no saving throw. The delivery method makes sense (Touch Injection or Poisoner's Gloves with an infused extract or potion), but the rules for Skinsend note that the range of the spell is personal. Personal spells cannot be made into potions, so why should Alchemists be able to infuse a personal extract and apply it to someone else? As I understand it, Infusion is meant to allow the use of non-personal spells like Bull's Strength on another individual, but it does not overcome the "personal" range limitation. If it did, this tactic would be incredibly broken. Believe me, it sounds hilarious and I want to use it more than anything, but my DM adheres strictly to the rules.

Well, you can't just do this without an extract. That's what makes the Touch Injection extract so good, the fact that there's no saves for extracts. It's entirely by rules, although it's not the kind of thing that I'd use that often. It's a bit of a jerk move, and really more of an evil move since it's kind of dark. Use this sparingly or else your GM is going to hammer you for it, or give it a save (which wouldn't be bad, since all you need is someone standing next to them to CDG the ugly out of them) Deuxhero mentioned why it works, due to Infusion and such too.

Second: I perused all the links provided regarding the acquisition of an Improved Familiar. I took away two facts from this --

1) James Jacobs states:
An Improved Familiar requires you to have "arcane spellcaster levels" according to d20pfsrd. Can this be equated to the "caster level" of the Alchemist (which is simply his Alchemist level)?

2) Sean Reynolds explicitly stated that a tumor familiar "counts as a familiar."

From what I can tell, the rules do indeed allow an Alchemist to obtain an Improved Familiar, provided he can fulfill one more condition: "only when you could normally acquire a new familiar." What does this mean? Is this simply fluff that you can rationalize by saying "Congratulations! Your TUMOR MONKEY has evolved into TUMOR HOMONCULUS!" after taking the feat?

It's pretty obvious that they think that you should be able to get an advance familiar, so I'd consider your Alchemist caster level to be both Arcane and Divine, since it's really neither but by implication it's at least an Arcane caster level. Although I doubt you could stop the evolution by pressing B...maybe...flavor it however you want. If you know it's happening, maybe flavor it as a gradual process, have your monkey slowly grow different.

Third: What is the buff delivery system for the tumor monkey mentioned in your guide? Are poisoner's gloves required, can the monkey drink the infused extract in your stead, can the monkey force the infused extract down your throat? Does the use of the infused extract count as casting a spell, effectively nullifying the huge bonus to action economy? Do we treat the infused extract as a stored spell, as a potion, or what? I read everything posted in this thread but I'm still confused about what is officially allowed by RAW.

Okay, I'm not exactly sure HOW the familiar holds a charge. I assume the familiar drinks it (assisted by you if it's not a monkey) and holds the charge until you're ready to have it discharged into you. The Poisoner's Gloves are different, and they let the monkey (and presumably other things, I plan on asking about this soon) wear, and pop 2 infusions into you at once, and a damn nice piece of tech.

I'd say the stored infusion/extract is counted as a potion, although there's enough ways to get around certain issues with the action economy (familiars holding charge, Poisoner's Gloves), so it should help you get around the action economy. Infusions/extracts are kind of weird, so if you have more exact questions, let me know so I can add them to the Extract Primer.

Fourth: Besides Feral Mutagen and race selection, and while not transformed by Beast Shape/Monstrous Physique, is there any other way to obtain additional natural attacks ? Your Vivisectionist/Beastmorph example had:

How were each of these attacks obtained? Bite + claws from Feral Mutagen, hooves from shapeshifting? Gore from...? Mainly, I just want to know how to get more natural attacks on my Alchemist, who is human.

Thanks for taking the time to make this guide (and read this post), and again, forgive my poor grasp of the rules.

Okay, the Gore/Hooves are racial from the Ragebred, which is where they come from. It's hard to pick up extra naturals aside from Helm of the Mammoth Lord, since the game tries to hold off on that. For humans, your best bet is taking Monstrous Physique, since it's a gear friendly extract that rocks pretty hard as a line.

I hope this answered your questions, let me know if you have any more.

RobDeBob

2014-03-07, 04:48 PM

Thanks for your very informative post. Infusions/extracts are indeed weird, but it seems that even with a stricter interpretation you can still find ways to sway the action economy. I think I'll go with the "Alchemist drinks extract, familiar delivers charge" interpretation, as the rules for Infusion state that "an infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects." This leads me to believe that an infused extract has no spellcasting element and behaves like a potion, making it ineligible for Deliver Touch Spells. I have another question:

The rules state: "In addition, he receives bonus extracts per day if he has a high Intelligence score, in the same way a wizard receives bonus spells per day." Do I use the same table as the wizard, disregarding spells above sixth level? For example, if I had 14 INT, at first level I would:
- learn two first level extracts
- learn two additional extracts of any level
- be able to prepare one first level extract per day PLUS one additional first level extract and one second level extract
Meaning I'd be able to use Invisibility/Bull's Strength etc. from the get-go?

deuxhero

2014-03-07, 08:50 PM

I'd rather not burn my ring slot for such a small benefit. It's a nice combo, but it has no proper place. Mutagen users are going to pass by it eventually on the way to Great Mutagen, and non Mutagen users aren't going to like losing all their mental stats. I could probably add it, it'd maybe be high orange/low green, but it's not something I'd recommend.

The ring works per effect (otherwise it would make no sense, esp the ability drain part) not total. It will do other stuff for you (most first stage conditions are only -2. May not be the most useful even then (most effects target derived stats directly and the ring doesn't help against them), but it's hardly JUST for that.

Sayt

2014-03-07, 11:43 PM

Larpus

2014-03-08, 12:47 PM

It's pretty obvious that they think that you should be able to get an advance familiar, so I'd consider your Alchemist caster level to be both Arcane and Divine, since it's really neither but by implication it's at least an Arcane caster level. Although I doubt you could stop the evolution by pressing B...maybe...flavor it however you want. If you know it's happening, maybe flavor it as a gradual process, have your monkey slowly grow different.
Another possibility for fluff is, you are a mad scientist, a rather cruel one at that, so you could either capture the evolved familiar form and through SCIENCE fused it with your monkey tumor familiar or, again through SCIENCE, turn it into a formless goo of flesh which later the Alchemist attaches and assimilates into his body, which is how I envision the original tumor familiar coming to be.

Great guide btw.

Thanks for your very informative post. Infusions/extracts are indeed weird, but it seems that even with a stricter interpretation you can still find ways to sway the action economy. I think I'll go with the "Alchemist drinks extract, familiar delivers charge" interpretation, as the rules for Infusion state that "an infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects." This leads me to believe that an infused extract has no spellcasting element and behaves like a potion, making it ineligible for Deliver Touch Spells.
A possibility for it to make sense is, in the Alchemist's case, consider the "Deliver Touch Spells" to work by having the familiar drink the extract, hold the charge and merge back into the Alchemist's body for it to make it take effect.

However: until you get to 4th level, you have null 2nd level extracts, not zero. Zero plus one is one. Null plus one is null.
Just adding an example to this, check Paladin's and Ranger's spell progressions, whenever they unlock a new spell level, they start with 0 spells of that level, meaning that they may only start casting if they have a high enough casting stat to have a bonus spell.

RobDeBob

2014-03-09, 05:24 AM

New question: for Feral Mutagen, we get 1d6 claws and a 1d8 bite if we're larger than Small. 1d6 claws + a 1d8 bite are usually reserved for a Large creature, while a Medium creature would get 1d4 claws + a 1d6 bite. If I were to use Enlarge Person, would I get 1d8 claws + a 1d10 bite, or does it not scale like that?

N. Jolly

2014-03-09, 09:21 AM

Another possibility for fluff is, you are a mad scientist, a rather cruel one at that, so you could either capture the evolved familiar form and through SCIENCE fused it with your monkey tumor familiar or, again through SCIENCE, turn it into a formless goo of flesh which later the Alchemist attaches and assimilates into his body, which is how I envision the original tumor familiar coming to be.

Great guide btw.

Totally possible, there's all sorts of routes you can take for your Tumor Familiar (Mine is a red Greensting Scorpion named Crimson)

And thanks for the kind words, it's the kind of stuff that keeps me writing guides to know that they're helping others.

New question: for Feral Mutagen, we get 1d6 claws and a 1d8 bite if we're larger than Small. 1d6 claws + a 1d8 bite are usually reserved for a Large creature, while a Medium creature would get 1d4 claws + a 1d6 bite. If I were to use Enlarge Person, would I get 1d8 claws + a 1d10 bite, or does it not scale like that?

Yep, you'd be moving on up to a higher damage die, despite the fact that you're "technically" at large size damage already. You're increasing your size, and that makes your damage dice bigger, so you'll be at a D8/D10 for your claw/bite.

RobDeBob

2014-03-09, 09:28 AM

Actually, I just checked the Tiny and Large Weapon Damage table, and it says while 1d6 is scaled up to 1d8, a 1d8 is scaled up to a 2d6. Nice.

Edit: I should probably read these entries more thoroughly before asking questions, heh.

N. Jolly

2014-03-09, 09:32 AM

Actually, I just checked the Tiny and Large Weapon Damage table, and it says while 1d6 is scaled up to 1d8, a 1d8 is scaled up to a 2d6. Nice.

Oh, guess I didn't check the chart. I'm not great on natural attack stacking, so yeah, you're moving up to a way better damage die.

Larpus

2014-03-09, 11:15 PM

N. Jolly

2014-03-10, 03:11 PM

Feral Mutagen is pretty freaking scary, tbh, the dices are very nice; reason why I'd refrain from piling on natural attacks unless the rest of the table is also optimized.

I mean, think of the poor melee guys, it's already bad enough that casters offend them in versatility all over the place, no need to rub broken glass and molten lava on their wounds by showing them on their own element (not even talking about "battle" here, talking about straight up melee damage) this hard.

On another note, couple additions I thought of while re-reading the guide:

Feral is tex mex sexy, no doubt. Getting 3 natural attacks is brutal, and something most Fighters WISH they could do. It's so easy for you to outdo a Fighter at melee, so make sure you don't completely show them up, or better yet, tell them not to be a damn Fighter.

1. There is another Advanced Mutagen choice worth of mention: Dual Mind.

Iron Will effect (stacking with it even) + possibility to retry a failed enchantment effect is pretty big, especially considering you're most probably the prime target for a compulsion spell from a savvy enemy caster (as you're essentially a cleric-lite with low will).

Strict RAW states that the whole thing stops working if you're out of mutate, but I think it's quite a jerk-move to disable even the passive part of it (after all, you're not using it), most GMs should allow it to stay.

Okay, I could see adding that, but it's still such a low ball ability for a discovery, at least for for normal discoveries. I could throw it in, but it's still pretty weak.

2. It might be worthy to mention build focus (not a guide, just a reminder somewhere), more important for the Mad Bomber, due to feat/discovery starvation on the lower levels. Sure, at 15+ you can do it all quite well, but if you don't focus on the 10-, you're gonna end up as bad as a poorly built Bard.

I was hoping that would be made clear in the build section. It's kind of hard to build on a concept like this, but I think I could probably put in the MB's con section that they require a lot of discoveries, which again is bunk because they also benefit most from Infusion and NEED Precise Bomb unless they're going first consistently or limiting themselves due to melee.

3. I'd say that Frost Bomb and Stink Bomb are rather mutually exclusive as discoveries, since it's impossible to use both at once and both target the same save; the difference would be a battle-ending effect at the expense of 2 discoveries and being locked on fire damage or better elemental type and discovery economy at the expense of a much weaker effect (as obviously nausea wrecks a wizard, stagger merely inconveniences him).

This is something I'd like to talk about more, but I'm not sure where, since there's not a lot of spaces to talk about misc stuff like that. It's something I might try to find room for though.

Again, certainly I'd like to fit both in my builds, but chances are I won't have discoveries/feats for that and would quite likely prefer Blinding Bomb over one of them for the added versatility of targeting a different save in case threatening Fort isn't cutting it.

Blinding is baller, although has the same issue as Stink Bomb in that you're stuck with Fire.

N. Jolly

2014-03-10, 07:26 PM

Just got the guide updated for Magical Marketplaces and a few other sources (none of the traits in that made me excited, but you guys did get some new discoveries), might use Archives of Nethys for new stuff more often.

Also put up some information if you want to donate using a certain site (not sure what I am and am not allowed to mention on the boards), but not sure how to make a direct link to donation. I'm trying to hit up a con, which is why I put the link there, but I'll keep updating it regardless. If anyone could PM me with advice on how to make an actual link for donations, that'd be pretty chill.

Also got two sample builds done on the Barb Guide, which means its time to head back to Synth town.

Larpus

2014-03-10, 08:11 PM

Okay, I could see adding that, but it's still such a low ball ability for a discovery, at least for for normal discoveries. I could throw it in, but it's still pretty weak.
Indeed, not exactly the best option, but there are times when it's interesting, such as if, for whatever reason, you simply couldn't get your Wis score above 8 and your Will save is really sucking right now; or your GM loves to make you roll for Will; or the GM simply hates bigger than medium and never allows you to fight in places where you could enlarge yourself.

In these situations, it might be more interesting than mathematically better options.

Again, not the best option, but still worthy of mention (following your colors it'd most probably be orange, maybe a situational green).

I was hoping that would be made clear in the build section. It's kind of hard to build on a concept like this, but I think I could probably put in the MB's con section that they require a lot of discoveries, which again is bunk because they also benefit most from Infusion and NEED Precise Bomb unless they're going first consistently or limiting themselves due to melee.

This is something I'd like to talk about more, but I'm not sure where, since there's not a lot of spaces to talk about misc stuff like that. It's something I might try to find room for though.

Blinding is baller, although has the same issue as Stink Bomb in that you're stuck with Fire.
Might be worthy of a subset under MB, mentioning build focus and/or philosophy (as in, effect vs. damage).

Personally, I always think of bombers as being two types who share pretty much everything with each other but basic philosophy; I called them Smoker (the effect guy) and Bomberman (damage guy) when I tried to make a guide.

For Smoker, effect is king so he makes the enemy suck big time on the first round, damage is secondary, so he cares not for being locked with fire, he'd rather be able to target any save.

Bomberman is the opposite, damage is the name of the game, with effect as a nice bonus, just in case whatever he just nova-ed is still alive and wants to murder the Bomberman.

RobDeBob

2014-03-10, 09:20 PM

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates

When I use a Longspear and Enlarge Person in tandem, which of these templates do I follow? The Large (Tall) one that gives me 10 foot reach plus another 10 feet for my enlarged longspear, for a total of 20 feet? Or the Large (Long) one? I imagine it's the former, but I wanted to be sure.

Larpus

2014-03-10, 09:53 PM

N. Jolly

2014-03-10, 10:46 PM

Indeed, not exactly the best option, but there are times when it's interesting, such as if, for whatever reason, you simply couldn't get your Wis score above 8 and your Will save is really sucking right now; or your GM loves to make you roll for Will; or the GM simply hates bigger than medium and never allows you to fight in places where you could enlarge yourself.

In these situations, it might be more interesting than mathematically better options.

Again, not the best option, but still worthy of mention (following your colors it'd most probably be orange, maybe a situational green).

I'd merit a green, as it's still useful, situation, but useful. I guess I'm just so 'meh' on most Advanced Mutagens, so it'd kind of a wash for me considering you can only ever pick up one (unless you're willing to dedicate, which is not recommended)

Might be worthy of a subset under MB, mentioning build focus and/or philosophy (as in, effect vs. damage).

Personally, I always think of bombers as being two types who share pretty much everything with each other but basic philosophy; I called them Smoker (the effect guy) and Bomberman (damage guy) when I tried to make a guide.

For Smoker, effect is king so he makes the enemy suck big time on the first round, damage is secondary, so he cares not for being locked with fire, he'd rather be able to target any save.

Bomberman is the opposite, damage is the name of the game, with effect as a nice bonus, just in case whatever he just nova-ed is still alive and wants to murder the Bomberman.

I guess I could see having a Bomberman subrole, as the smoker subrole you're talking about is basically the debuff bomber. I personally think bombs are too finite to be building based around their damage, but there are ways to pump it though. I almost feel like a bomberman should be a generalist alchemist due to needing something to do once you're out of bombs.

I'd honestly not have a smoker/Bomberman divide in the actual guide, as I learned my lesson with B/C Hyde, which I didn't like in retrospect.

EDIT: Figured out the donation thing, we're all peachy keen there.

Larpus

2014-03-11, 08:06 PM

I'd merit a green, as it's still useful, situation, but useful. I guess I'm just so 'meh' on most Advanced Mutagens, so it'd kind of a wash for me considering you can only ever pick up one (unless you're willing to dedicate, which is not recommended)
As I said, not the mathematically superior choice, but still worth mentioning over the rest which indeed are pure garbage.

I guess I could see having a Bomberman subrole, as the smoker subrole you're talking about is basically the debuff bomber. I personally think bombs are too finite to be building based around their damage, but there are ways to pump it though. I almost feel like a bomberman should be a generalist alchemist due to needing something to do once you're out of bombs.

I'd honestly not have a smoker/Bomberman divide in the actual guide, as I learned my lesson with B/C Hyde, which I didn't like in retrospect.
Both are most probably better off as "build paths" as a Generalist can actually work pretty well with Agi (not as great as Brutal Hyde, but can work, trading some damage for less MAD and better accuracy with bombs - and becoming a superior choice in low point buy scenarios); even C.Hyde can do the same if he gets a whip or some other finessable reach weapon.

And yes, Bomberman can't fight for long, bombs are indeed too limited in number to be the sole source of damage, but by throwing 4+ in a single round (and pretty much having guaranteed hits due to touch) + Sticky Bomb and some effect (which by forcing the target to save 4 times against is a nearly guaranteed affect even against a strong Save) and you have one scary dude who severely cripples an enemy on the first round.

Generalist really meshes well with either bomb-user type, just with a secondary focus on melee as opposed to straight up ranged combat that most MBs will be.

That's really the beauty of this class IMHO, there are simply so many options that just work as long as you're careful enough due to how versatile and powerful the center mechanic (bombs) is, while still effortlessly rocking a respectable buff-based spell list with great action-economy for the caster (when group-buffing) with 3/4 BAB progression.

If there was a feat for progressing bomb dices and amount when multiclassing (such as Shaping Focus is for wildshape), things would be absolutely insane!

grarrrg

2014-03-11, 09:34 PM

If there was a feat for progressing bomb dices and amount when multiclassing (such as Shaping Focus is for wildshape), things would be absolutely insane!

Well, there is the "Extra Bombs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-bombs)" feat. No points for guessing what THAT does.

As for Bomb Damage and/or Multiclassing there's always good old Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard.
And of course by "multiclassing...Arcane Bomber Wizard" I mean DO NOT EVER DO THIS IT IS A HORRIBLE IDEA.

Larpus

2014-03-12, 06:59 PM

Well, there is the "Extra Bombs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-bombs)" feat. No points for guessing what THAT does.

As for Bomb Damage and/or Multiclassing there's always good old Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard.
And of course by "multiclassing...Arcane Bomber Wizard" I mean DO NOT EVER DO THIS IT IS A HORRIBLE IDEA.
Ugh...don't even remind me of that hideous mess of a lost opportunity for an interesting archetype.

deuxhero

2014-04-12, 03:13 AM

N. Jolly

2014-04-15, 08:52 PM

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Chalice%20of%2 0Communal%20Dweomer

New potion related item. 1/day lets a non-instant potion effect multiple people, splitting the duration (even if it is normally a multi target spell...). Could be used with Alchemical Allocation, but I can't think of anything it could be useful to the entire party with.

Champions of Balance has some new discoveries, but 2 are just Holy Bombs for law/chaos and the other 2 give minor boosts under a cognatogen.

Thanks for the heads up, both ahve been added, although haven't checked out the magic item. It feels good, but I'm not quite sure how...worth investigating though.

I've been way too busy working on my new homebrew class, the (pathfinder) Warlock (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kUP7MYIAOkngFljpUBniX0U4c39g0G5r18pQ8tr5z48/edit?usp=sharing).

Give it a look if you can, and please give any opinions you have on it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340706-New-Class-The-(Pathfinder)-Warlock-reviews-critique-and-comments-welcome) or here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvpy?New-Class-The-Warlock).

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the effort for helping me out with this guide, and be sure this thing is going to get a big revamp post Alchemy Manual.

magotter

2014-04-19, 09:31 AM

N. Jolly

2014-04-20, 05:51 PM

I'm looking for a bit of clarification on Grenadier.

Alchemical Weapon states that "The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets." (Emphasis mine)

Now, just to be clear here, does that mean if I shoot an arrow loaded up with some Ghast Retch Flask juice, the target is denied his DC 12 fort save to avoid the nauseated portion?

For clarification, Ghast Retch Flask is listed as:
Harvested and concentrated from the remains of slain ghasts, this foul-smelling powder is kept in tightly sealed flasks. It is thrown as a splash weapon and the flask breaks on impact, releasing noxious dust. The target is nauseated for 1 round and sickened for 3 rounds after that. A successful DC 12 Fortitude save prevents the nauseated condition, but not the sickened condition. Creatures within 5 feet of where the flask hits are sickened for 1 round. This is a poison effect.
(again, emphasis mine)

Likewise, How viable is a Archer Grenadier utilizing Alchemical Weapon and Explosive Missile? Debuffing Bomb-Tipped arrows sound amazing, if a bit... Hyrulian.

I'm pretty sure myself that the 'full effect' thing means that you don't have to have a reduced effect for being launched with a weapon. That's how I'd rule it at least.

And Archer Grenadier with Alch Weapon/Explosive Missile/Conductive Weapon/Hybridization Funnel is MY iconic character, Kallen Telos, so I'd say it works damn well. As long as you're smart about bomb use (I'd use some kind of accuracy enhancer before letting loose with an Explosive Missile myself), you can generally end fights in a hail of debuffing beauty (GRF + Burst Jar) or massive damage with Raining Arrows added into the mix.

deuxhero

2014-05-03, 05:50 AM

Rather than cast magic like a spellcaster

At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, as a free action on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power to take an additional standard action during that turn. This additional standard action can't be used to cast a spell. You can't gain an extra action in this way more than once per round.

Is there finally somewhere the whole "not actually a caster" thing works in your favor?

avr

2014-05-03, 08:12 AM

Alchemical Weapon states that "The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets." (Emphasis mine)

Now, just to be clear here, does that mean if I shoot an arrow loaded up with some Ghast Retch Flask juice, the target is denied his DC 12 fort save to avoid the nauseated portion?

For clarification, Ghast Retch Flask is listed as:
Harvested and concentrated from the remains of slain ghasts, this foul-smelling powder is kept in tightly sealed flasks. It is thrown as a splash weapon and the flask breaks on impact, releasing noxious dust. The target is nauseated for 1 round and sickened for 3 rounds after that. A successful DC 12 Fortitude save prevents the nauseated condition, but not the sickened condition. Creatures within 5 feet of where the flask hits are sickened for 1 round. This is a poison effect.
(again, emphasis mine).
I think the distinction here is between a direct hit and the 5' splash - the 'full effect' is the former.

Fredlebad

2014-05-07, 10:01 AM

Thank you for the epic guide!

I have questions about the Improved Tumor Familiar:

-Can it take actions while attached to the Alchemist?
For example, could it use a wand while being attached on the shoulder?

-Correct me if i'm wrong, but extracts have a personal range, how could they possibly be used with the deliver touch spell ability?

-Finally, is there some official ruling on the Tumor action economy thing? (probably not...)
Seems awesome, but my GM is already annoyed by how good my alchemist is (thanks to this guide!) and I will need really good arguments to convince him haha

Thank you for your help!

deuxhero

2014-06-03, 01:17 AM

While worshipping an evil deity isn’t great for most people, it’s a flavor requirement for an impossibly good feat for you.

Not actually a problem. Feat says worship, not patron (and some things do indeed say patron as a requirement, some in the same book even), and Pathfinder's default setting DOES allow polytheism for non-divine classes. Faiths and Philosophies lays out explicit "pantheons" just to prove it. While none include her the existence of the ascended "pantheon" (which has members that vary by worshiper) says they are just example sets instead of something magically binding.

edit: Weapon Versatility is a neat feat for martial types, but has wording that overlooks splash weapons (which includes bombs) and is to your benefit (thanks for graystone on the paizo boards for pointing this out)

When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon.

This 1 feat (and weapon focus for the requirement) means any splash weapon can do bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage, which is... interesting. Feat is probably worth a mention for more martial type alchemists anyways.

Trenien

2014-07-02, 03:59 AM

Hi, I have a questions for all alchemist specialists :
in a short while, I'm going to play a series of games for which I intend to make a bomber alchemist. We'll be starting at level 1 and, depending how well we play, we'll end up level 3 to 4. I doubt I'm going to play that character afterwards ; in effect, that means I'll never have access to 2nd level extracts nor will I have more than 1 or 2 infusion (but level 4 appears unlikely anyway).

I've mostly planned the 1st level, with a Tiefling with 20 INT and 5 CHA (compensated throught the Student of Philosophy trait). However, I'm wondering about level 2 or 3, and whether it would be a good idea to take a 1 level dip into arcane bomber, to gain even more flexibility (3 1st level spells, which can be converted to bonus to hit and dammages if necessary). Considering there is no loss as pertain to the bombs, I don't see a negative, but there may be something I've missed.

Any thought ?

N. Jolly

2014-11-21, 08:32 AM

Sup all, finally updated the guide with a lot of new stuff, it's looking pretty hype now. Check it out if you're looking to build THE BEST Alchemist, or at least second best, as no one's gonna beat my Alchemist.

Raven777

2014-11-21, 08:47 AM

Ninjaxenomorph

2014-11-21, 10:47 AM

Some stuff from the ACG: holy weapon balm is crazy good, effectively making Ghost Salt weapon blanch obsolete, and the Restful property is a solid alternative to a Ring of Sustenance. Also, something I should bring up is another armor choice, darkleaf cloth quilted armor. It isn't quite as flexible as the others with a max Dex bonus of +10, but has no other penalties (including ASF chance, should that be necessary), gives a +1 armor bonus, and gives nonmagical DR 3/- against ranged piercing weapons.

felinoel

2014-11-21, 01:06 PM

Oh hey I've been using your Google doc for a while now, didn't realize that there was a Giantitp thread for it too!
Thanks for it btw!

Also, Alchemists get a lot of fun stuff for potions, alchemical allocation, extend potion, eternal potion, potion tattoo spell, etc, what would be good potions for alchemists to invest in? I built the bomb/spellslinger type so I am more interested in that but the guide could use this info for both types.

N. Jolly

2014-11-21, 09:36 PM

On the subject of piling on Natural Attacks for the Feral build, there are ways beyond Ragebred or an Helm of the Mammoth lord to acquire more. You just have to go Demon hunting (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicDemonicImplants.aspx). These are all Wondrous Items. The Brazen Hooves will give you a hoof attack and the Crown of Horns will give you a gore attack. You can also pick up some Wicked Wings along the way and some Demon Talons if you want claws when not under a Mutagen, you silly hideous stitched abomination you.

God, we can't give the Vivi anything else, or else it'll win the game. Like literally, it will just WIN pathfinder, and I can't have someone do that...not again...

Some stuff from the ACG: holy weapon balm is crazy good, effectively making Ghost Salt weapon blanch obsolete, and the Restful property is a solid alternative to a Ring of Sustenance. Also, something I should bring up is another armor choice, darkleaf cloth quilted armor. It isn't quite as flexible as the others with a max Dex bonus of +10, but has no other penalties (including ASF chance, should that be necessary), gives a +1 armor bonus, and gives nonmagical DR 3/- against ranged piercing weapons.

Thanks for the info, reading up on some of it now. I wouldn't say it invalidates GS weapon blanch, since you can have GS on your weapon for a long time and not need to worry, while Holy Weapon Balm is a 'before we kick in the door' sort of item. It's still good, but GS has its use too. I'll be sure to include both though. I'll be sure to throw in some of the other stuff too. Let me know if there's any more specific stuff done to help the Alch, since looking through feats/traits/magical items is exhausting.

Oh hey I've been using your Google doc for a while now, didn't realize that there was a Giantitp thread for it too!
Thanks for it btw!

Also, Alchemists get a lot of fun stuff for potions, alchemical allocation, extend potion, eternal potion, potion tattoo spell, etc, what would be good potions for alchemists to invest in? I built the bomb/spellslinger type so I am more interested in that but the guide could use this info for both types.

No problem, it's easy to miss that there's links to the thread here and on Paizo too. Also a donation link...*COUGH*

I've still not gotten a reply on if tattoo spells take up magic item slots, although there's already a section in the guide for potions to invest in (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hChbcEsEfQsR7NkwKlzO-GLYtrOtxlkGHpRQgKKZ5gc/edit#bookmark=kix.gxuyc652zepg), especially for Alchemical Allocation specialist (which should be all of them.)

I'm noticing a lot of my pictures are dead, I'm going to have to change that later, but everything else is working well.

All new extracts from new books are up and running on the guide, and I have to say, I'm very pleased at a lot of them.

Ninjaxenomorph

2014-11-21, 11:17 PM

felinoel

2014-11-23, 06:28 PM

God, we can't give the Vivi anything else, or else it'll win the game. Like literally, it will just WIN pathfinder, and I can't have someone do that...not again...

Thanks for the info, reading up on some of it now. I wouldn't say it invalidates GS weapon blanch, since you can have GS on your weapon for a long time and not need to worry, while Holy Weapon Balm is a 'before we kick in the door' sort of item. It's still good, but GS has its use too. I'll be sure to include both though. I'll be sure to throw in some of the other stuff too. Let me know if there's any more specific stuff done to help the Alch, since looking through feats/traits/magical items is exhausting.

No problem, it's easy to miss that there's links to the thread here and on Paizo too. Also a donation link...*COUGH*

I've still not gotten a reply on if tattoo spells take up magic item slots, although there's already a section in the guide for potions to invest in (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hChbcEsEfQsR7NkwKlzO-GLYtrOtxlkGHpRQgKKZ5gc/edit#bookmark=kix.gxuyc652zepg), especially for Alchemical Allocation specialist (which should be all of them.)

I'm noticing a lot of my pictures are dead, I'm going to have to change that later, but everything else is working well.

All new extracts from new books are up and running on the guide, and I have to say, I'm very pleased at a lot of them.I remember reading that that particular spell occupies the chest tattoo slot?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tattoo-potion

N. Jolly

2014-12-24, 03:27 PM

I'd say ghost salt is overall better for ammunition, but holy weapon balm is very versatile, at the cost of time being effective. Also, cheaper. Another ACG goodie is are the dust knuckles, a way to poison unarmed strikes. Or, if you spring for the 'diamond dust vials', its a DC 20 reflex save to blind for a round.

I really have to say, diamond dust vials should blind for longer than a round.

Also lowered some ratings including Fast Bombs, really seeing the problem with spamming multiple bombs.

Woden

2015-03-02, 06:02 AM

This guide was first posted a few months after I'd rolled my alchemist, and I found it a super useful resource as he leveled. Thanks for all the work you've put into it. : ) And now that I've played a bomber for a couple of years and have reached level 20, I have some feedback on the guide.

Discoveries
* You rated Dispelling Bomb orange, which I can't agree with. It's definitely situational because lots of enemies don't wear spells, but I think you're underestimating the power of stacking Dispelling plus [nearly any other debuffing discovery] to double-debuff with each bomb (or triple-debuff, if you stack Dispelling plus Madness plus some other X). I personally have had great success with Dispelling + Confusion as an alpha strike to neuter three or four of the meanest-looking types on the field. Dispelling + Force is excellent for enemies immune to confusion, because the knockdown effect still fires, so they lose spells and then need to spend their next turn getting up and moving instead of moving and hitting.

* The Cognatogen chain also received an orange rating from you (despite being blue for bombers) thanks to the ability damage it hits you with. But, depending on how your GM reads the interaction between cognatogens and the Vest of Stable Mutation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vest-of-stable-mutation), that might not be an issue. The Cognatogen description explicitly calls out that they are functionally identical to mutagens except for what stats they affect, so the vest applying to cognatogens is entirely reasonable. Whether the vest would also prevent the ability damage, that's more debatable.

* Doppelganger Simulacrum: you note that you'll be at half-strength when using this discovery, which RAW seems to disagree with. The discovery text uses the word simulacrum, but doesn't otherwise have any points of commonality with the spell by that name. As written, the discovery seems to allow you to make exact duplicates of yourself, which means 'full strength.' In addition, you entirely missed the "it's an extra life for only 1K" aspect of it, which is a pretty snazzy aspect. Make a doppelganger, stick your original body in a safe place and transfer your items to the copy, and you're kinda-sorta deathproof. (Your buddies will have to retrieve your items from the dead doppelganger, though.)

Feats
* Your writeup of Hammer the Gap mentions that it provides extra to-hit. It does not. While the feat could still be quite nice for a multiattacking Hyde, 2-5 extra bomb damage in a round is almost certainly not worth a feat to a bomber who could take Extra Discovery instead. That's particularly true for an alchemist who has debuffing and CC bombs (which is to say, every bomber), because they’re not going to be targeting one enemy with their entire full attack unless it’s a BBEG, in which case 2-5 damage is pretty minuscule.

* You typoed "Amateur Investigator" as "amature."

Extracts
* You red-rated both Bomber’s Eye and Longshot, but when they are combined in an admixture vial, that’s a third-level extract that doubles the range of your bombs. Given the 20' range increment of bombs, doubled bomb range is pretty unspectacular by itself. But where these extracts begin to show their worth is if your bomber has taken both the Splash Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/splash-weapon-mastery) and Distance Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/distance-thrower-combat) feats. Combined, they eliminate distance penalties until the fourth range increment, and then the penalty only increases by -1 each increment thereafter. With those two feats, a bomber’s unpenalized range is 60’, and with the combined Bomber’s Eye/Longshot extract, that doubles to 120’, with only a -1 penalty for every 40' further than that. That’s worth keeping a third-level extract slot occupied in case of long-range engagement, in my experience.

* Your writeup on the See Alignment extract has typos.

* For Tattoo Potion, you incorrectly assume that the spell tattoo uses your chest item slot. The Inscribe Magical Tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) feat says “Magic tattoos must be placed on a part of the body normally able to hold a magic item slot, but they do not count against or interfere with magic items worn on those slots.” With that said, Tattoo Potion is pretty bad, but it's bad because there aren't really any potions good enough to make expensively handy, not because it occupies important slots. (It's worth noting that Alchemical Allocation would arguably allow you to use the Tattoo Potion for multiple people before it evaporates.) (Too bad it's still a pretty weaksauce extract.)

* You only rated Fluid Form green (and orange for bombers!), which seems to be because you didn't take the Infusion discovery into account. Fluid Form is one of the best infusions around. Hand that to your melee buddies along with Greater Invisibility and they'll love you forever.

* Universal Formula is red-rated because you didn't consider its synergy with Delayed Consumption. Having any of your 3rd-or-lower extracts available as an immediate action is fantastic, and using it that way defrays the cost of the material component, because you only need to re-prepare it every couple of weeks or so.

* Monstrous Physique III is green-rated, when I think it deserves higher, especially as an infusion. Turning your fighter into a huge Thriae Queen is a wee bit awesome, not least because they can still use their [now larger] weapons.

* Plague Bearer is red-rated, but I feel it deserves far higher when considered as an infusion. Given to someone who is going to be standing next to living enemies (for instance, your greater-invisible rogue or your fighter (or both!)), it’s 16+ rounds of completely free debuff attempts made at the alchemist’s DC (which can be pretty spectacular for a cognatogen-using bomber).

* You rated Transformation orange, but as an infusion given to, say, the rogue, it has tremendous potential. A greater-invisible rogue making sneak attacks with a full BAB? That’s just mean.

Archetypes
* I disagree with the orange rating given to Mindchemist. For a dedicated bomber and skill-monkey, getting the Cognatogen discovery for free is excellent, and Perfect Recall only enhances the skill-monkey role. Run into a creature? Don't worry, the alchemist knows what it is. Mindchemists have a lot of skill points to go around, so spending one on each of the miscellaneous knowledge skills is plenty cheap enough to afford, and with Perfect Recall, one is all you really need.

Items
* The entry on Poisoner’s Gloves should note that your party members can benefit from wearing them too. Two infusions in one round (or three, with use of an admixture vial) is great for everybody, especially the rogues and fighters, who really want to get to the hitting fast.

Potions
* A CL20 potion of Heroism is well worth considering, because with the Extend Potion discovery (which you’re getting on the way to Eternal Potion anyway), that gives you 400 minutes of Heroism for the cost of an Alchemical Allocation.