View Full Version : Help me build my muder hobo!
Immabozo
2013-07-19, 02:18 PM
I would love to play someone who is literally a murder hobo.
Human
Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Whirling spirit lion totem barbarian 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 1/War Shaper 4
Feats:
Human: Sacred Vow
Level 1: Vow of Poverty
Monk: Imp. Grapple + Imp unarmed strike
Monk 2: Deflect Arrow
Level 3: Great Fortitude
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Assuming a starting 16 con, 14 dex and 14 wis, level stats into wis at 4, 8 and con at 12, VoP increasing wis by 2 at 7 and 11, con by 2 at 11, with items of +3 con and wis
Con 22 (+4 bear warrior, +4 warshaper), Dex 14 (+2 bear warrior), Wis 20
AC (when raging) at level 14: 43 (10 + 2 (Deflection, VoP) + 10 (wis to AC x2) + 10 (con, FotF) + 3 (dex) + 6 (NA, VoP + Bear Warrior) + 2 (dodge whirling rage ACF)
Questions:
Does wis to AC from monk and swordsage stack with each other? nope, :smallannoyed:
is monk or unarmed swordsage better for this?
I know it's not a complete build, what should I do to fill in the holes?
Are there better choices to make for this build?
No, swordsage and monk do not stack. There is a seperate debate on whether they should if the class was written properly, but as it is even the unarmed swordsage requires you to be in armour.
As for advice, can't you only shift into a bear once or twice a day? You might want to get more plentiful access to shapeshifting to get the full potential of warshaper.
Immabozo
2013-07-19, 02:34 PM
No, swordsage and monk do not stack. There is a seperate debate on whether they should if the class was written properly, but as it is even the unarmed swordsage requires you to be in armour.
As for advice, can't you only shift into a bear once or twice a day? You might want to get more plentiful access to shapeshifting to get the full potential of warshaper.
the shapes per day is possible every time I rage, but war shaper doesn't rely on wild shaping, only needs it for entry, RAW, doesn't need to be used for the class features.
Damnit, well, isn't there a way to get con-to-AC twice?
the shapes per day is possible every time I rage, but war shaper doesn't rely on wild shaping, only needs it for entry, RAW, doesn't need to be used for the class features.
Its hidden, but the warshaper entry does say you have to be in an alternate form to gain the benefit of all class features.
Hyena
2013-07-19, 02:43 PM
I know, it may be tempting, but by the power of Pelor I command to you - DON'T take vow of poverty! No! Bad decision! It's a trap!
Oh wait. You are not a newbie. You are Immabozo. Well, duh, it's your choice.
Talderas
2013-07-19, 02:45 PM
I know, it may be tempting, but by the power of Pelor I command to you - DON'T take vow of poverty! No! Bad decision! It's a trap!
Oh wait. You are not a newbie. You are Immabozo. Well, duh, it's your choice.
It's a literal hobo. Vow of Poverty is quite appropriate even if less optimal.
Lanson
2013-07-19, 02:48 PM
As for advice, can't you only shift into a bear once or twice a day? You might want to get more plentiful access to shapeshifting to get the full potential of warshaper.
Bear Warrior got an errata that states you can turn bear form as many times as you have rages per day. Just pick up Extra Rage feats for 2/day more per feat
Karnith
2013-07-19, 02:48 PM
Damnit, well, isn't there a way to get con-to-AC twice?
Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), but it would appear that the options are Deepwarden (requires being a dwarf), Fist of the Forest (which you already have), Forsaker (which is awful), or binding the vestige Dahlev-Nar (which is an enhancement bonus to your natural AC equal to half your Con bonus).
with items of +3 con and wis
Sorry, how is this happening?
VeisuItaTyhjyys
2013-07-19, 02:54 PM
Damnit, well, isn't there a way to get con-to-AC twice?
There is, but it's dorf only; a two level dip in Deepwarden, which forces you to essentially waste a feat on Endurance and invest a lot of skill points. I think it's five ranks of Heal, Climb, Jump, and Knowledge (Dungeoneering), the first and last of which are probably gonna be cross-class for at least parts of the build.
Immabozo
2013-07-19, 03:02 PM
It's a literal hobo. Vow of Poverty is quite appropriate even if less optimal.
Right, going with whats fitting for an idea, instead of the optimal build. After playing the optimal build a few times for a given idea, I want to build a concept now, instead of an optimal build
Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), but it would appear that the options are Deepwarden (requires being a dwarf), Fist of the Forest (which you already have), Forsaker (which is awful), and binding the vestige Dahlev-Nar (which is an enhancement bonus to your natural AC equal to half your Con bonus).
Sorry, how is this happening?
Thank you
And I keep forgetting it is a house rule I was taught with, any size bonus is fine (without being epic, of course) just using the bonus^2 * 1000 for figuring out costs.
Karnith
2013-07-19, 03:04 PM
And I keep forgetting it is a house rule I was taught with, any size bonus is fine (without being epic, of course) just using the bonus^2 * 1000 for figuring out costs.
Actually, I was wondering how you're using magic items as a VoP character.
ArqArturo
2013-07-19, 03:06 PM
Touch of Golden Ice.
"Hello mr. I-don't-know-you're-a-disciple-of-asmodeus. Allow me to shake your hand, here, have my save-or-suck".
Found that rule for warshapers, it under the class features heading, that one no one reads because 99% of them say the same thing. So yeah, get extra rage.
Immabozo
2013-07-19, 03:22 PM
Forsaker (which is awful)
The downsides of this class are mostly the same as the ones traded away for VoP, and then you can even get double con to AC from Forsaker, so with FotF, that's triple con to AC. That is VERY fun! And +1 to an ability score per level, as long as its not above +6 when it is applied, fast movement, fast healing, its a great choice if you are already trading away this downsides for something else.
Immabozo
2013-07-19, 03:24 PM
Actually, I was wondering how you're using magic items as a VoP character.
right, haha, not used to it
Found that rule for warshapers, it under the class features heading, that one no one reads because 99% of them say the same thing. So yeah, get extra rage.
I'll re-read it
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 01:03 PM
So I am looking at a build more like this:
monk 2/fighter 2/whirling spirit lion totem barbarian 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Forsaken 6/Bear Warrior 1/war shaper 4
Taking vow of poverty and then unarmed attack/imp nat attack feats (If I have natural weapons, like claws, do I loose the benefits of unarmed strike feats?)
that'll give me con x3 and wis to AC as well as buttloads of stat increases, +1 per Forsaker level, plus the VoP progression, plus massive temporary stats from rage, and a few more from war shaper DR and SR from Forsaker, Fast healing from Forsaker (I think) and war shaper.
Karnith
2013-07-20, 01:55 PM
The downsides of this class are mostly the same as the ones traded away for VoP,
Only partially. On top of the VoP restrictions, you need to waste three feats (though at least you'll already be taking one of them anyway), and you have to make a save against every spell cast on you, including beneficial spells. Given the saves you'll have from this build, you're unlikely to benefit from many buffs ever again. It exacerbates some of the worst problems with being a VoP character by preventing you from getting allied spells to compensate for your lack of items.
Also, you won't be able to use your Damage Reduction, but that's not a big deal because it's not very good anyway.
Douglas
2013-07-20, 02:09 PM
The downsides of this class are mostly the same as the ones traded away for VoP
Both VoP and Forsaker go further than "can't use magic items", though, and their "going further" parts conflict. For VoP, you have to donate your share of treasure to charity. For Forsaker, you have to destroy your treasure. Can't do both at once. Well, technically I suppose you could, but donating the destroyed remains of your treasure to charity would be a blatant violation of the spirit of VoP.
MuttonBasher
2013-07-20, 02:13 PM
Both VoP and Forsaker go further than "can't use magic items", though, and their "going further" parts conflict. For VoP, you have to donate your share of treasure to charity. For Forsaker, you have to destroy your treasure. Can't do both at once. Well, technically I suppose you could, but donating the destroyed remains of your treasure to charity would be a blatant violation of the spirit of VoP.
Sure you can. It's called 'modern art'. Just donate the slag heap made of your ten thousand gp you looted from ye olde dragon to the local orphanage. Maybe they can refine it into gilded sleds for the kids come Christmastime.
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 02:30 PM
Both VoP and Forsaker go further than "can't use magic items", though, and their "going further" parts conflict. For VoP, you have to donate your share of treasure to charity. For Forsaker, you have to destroy your treasure. Can't do both at once. Well, technically I suppose you could, but donating the destroyed remains of your treasure to charity would be a blatant violation of the spirit of VoP.
Yes, the downsides are overlapping, and then forsaken lapped VOP, but I'm still making a strong, completely naked character who can murder anyone with his fists. yes, not optimal, but still viable an I feel the two, together, is a lot better. VoP is almost a downside-less feat, in this build, if you want to look at it like that.
But I can also get MID points from killing magical beasties. Plus, sundering a magic item on an opponent isn't really my loot, is it?
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 03:30 PM
Question, psionics are not magic, so I could roll with psionics on this build, right?
If yes, I have never looked into psionics, what would be a good place to start? What class/PrC would fit well?
Question, psionics are not magic, so I could roll with psionics on this build, right?
Psionic-magic transparancy rule would probably prevent that.
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 03:42 PM
Psionic-magic transparancy rule would probably prevent that.
I'm unfamiliar with this rule
I'm unfamiliar with this rule
Its to prvent precisely this: someone dodging the drawbacks of no magic to do exactly the same thing with psionics. Basically the rule states "Psionics isn't magic, but it is". Here:
Combining Psionic And Magical Effects
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.
Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)
All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.
The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).
Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 05:17 PM
When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.
thats a bif if. So I guess its dependant on your DM ans setting.
Deophaun
2013-07-20, 05:39 PM
It's a literal hobo. Vow of Poverty is quite appropriate even if less optimal.
Actually, if it was a literal murder hobo, it couldn't be exalted, what with all the murder and all. So, no VoP.
Immabozo
2013-07-20, 06:17 PM
Actually, if it was a literal murder hobo, it couldn't be exalted, what with all the murder and all. So, no VoP.
Do you have to be lawful good for VOP? Or just lawful?
also, my group has refluffed VoP in the past (vow of greed. Instead of donating it, the kobold that thought he was a dragon stashed everything away in a horde)
Darth Stabber
2013-07-20, 06:19 PM
thats a bif if. So I guess its dependant on your DM ans setting.
I've almost never seen a gm use less transparency, and I know a few that increase it.
Example:
I take it a step further and combine spellcraft with psicraft, and UMD with UPD. I think that if spellcraft can recognize soulmelds and what ever it is shadowcasters do, then having having a second spell identification skill that only covers one subset of magical effects is ridiculous, and with that goes UPD for similar reasons. Also, many psionic characters rarely get any use out of their psycraft rolls, while casters get all sorts of nifty info out of spellcraft, so increasing the transparency is a big gain for psions, and only a small gain for casters. And no one takes UPD, even if if they have it as class, and how often is a GM going to drop dorjes and psicrowns?
Also reduced transparency makes psionic characters into powerful glass cannons. Their powers are nigh indefatigable, and their defenses are naught but tissue paper.
Do you have to be lawful good for VOP? Or just lawful?
You have to be good but you don't have to be lawful I believe.
Darth Stabber
2013-07-20, 06:23 PM
You have to be good but you don't have to be lawful I believe.
This is correct.
Dusk Eclipse
2013-07-20, 06:24 PM
I've almost never seen a gm use less transparency, and I know a few that increase it.
Example:
I take it a step further and combine spellcraft with psicraft, and UMD with UPD. I think that if spellcraft can recognize soulmelds and what ever it is shadowcasters do, then not having having a second spell identification skill that only covers one subset of magical effects is ridiculous, and with that goes UPD for similar reasons. Also, many psionic characters rarely get any use out of their psycraft rolls, while casters get all sorts of nifty info out of spellcraft, so increasing the transparency is a big gain for psions, and only a small gain for casters. And no one takes UPD, even if if they have it as class, and how often is a GM going to drop dorjes and psicrowns?
Also reduced transparency makes psionic characters into powerful glass cannons. Their powers are nigh indefatigable, and their defenses are naught but tissue paper.
Actually my DM used partial transparency, for example a Dispel MAgic against Metamorphosis would have a -4 to the CL check, while a Dispel Psionics used against a Polymorphed character would have a -4 to the ML check.
Douglas
2013-07-20, 08:55 PM
Yes, the downsides are overlapping, and then forsaken lapped VOP, but I'm still making a strong, completely naked character who can murder anyone with his fists. yes, not optimal, but still viable an I feel the two, together, is a lot better. VoP is almost a downside-less feat, in this build, if you want to look at it like that.
I'm not saying the downsides are overlapping, I'm saying they're mutually contradictory. It is not possible to satisfy the requirements of both without doing some weird logic contortions that are obviously counter to the intent of one of them.
This is not about the optimality of the build, but rather its legality.
Do you have to be lawful good for VOP? Or just lawful?
Law/chaos is irrelevant. You have to be good Good GOOD Exalted Good. You have to be someone Paladins hold up as an example of how Good they wish they could be.
Immabozo
2013-07-21, 03:16 AM
I'm not saying the downsides are overlapping, I'm saying they're mutually contradictory. It is not possible to satisfy the requirements of both without doing some weird logic contortions that are obviously counter to the intent of one of them.
This is not about the optimality of the build, but rather its legality.
Well destroying magical beasts and sundering others magic items is fine, and then VOP doesn't say you hsve to give away a magic item every time. Want if you disenchant the armor by some ritual to remove magic, then give it away? Plus, sundering, like I said, anothers magic items, are not your own.
Law/chaos is irrelevant. You have to be good Good GOOD Exalted Good. You have to be someone Paladins hold up as an example of how Good they wish they could be.
eeewwww.
haha, I hate goodie two-shoes! I think it is the players I have played with that played them. One of them in particular, I really didn't like... so maybe I color it with the same pen?
Lateral
2013-07-21, 12:40 PM
Yeah, Vow of Poverty isn't really going to work for a murder hobo, because... well, because you can't commit murder, since you have to be Stupid Good. Forsaker would still work, though, so you could drop VoP and just go with that.
Immabozo
2013-07-21, 12:46 PM
Yeah, Vow of Poverty isn't really going to work for a murder hobo, because... well, because you can't commit murder, since you have to be Stupid Good. Forsaker would still work, though, so you could drop VoP and just go with that.
This saddens me. So it will work if I make a different character, but for the murder hobo idea, its out, right?
Lateral
2013-07-21, 02:26 PM
Yeah, pretty much, unless you either use a homebrew VoP that doesn't require being exalted or just make an evil version of it yourself.
Immabozo
2013-07-21, 03:00 PM
Yeah, pretty much, unless you either use a homebrew VoP that doesn't require being exalted or just make an evil version of it yourself.
I think all D&D rules carry the "unless house ruled otherwise" brand
Lateral
2013-07-21, 03:04 PM
Yeah, pretty much.
EvilJames
2013-07-22, 11:58 AM
I've almost never seen a gm use less transparency, and I know a few that increase it.
Example:
I take it a step further and combine spellcraft with psicraft, and UMD with UPD. I think that if spellcraft can recognize soulmelds and what ever it is shadowcasters do, then having having a second spell identification skill that only covers one subset of magical effects is ridiculous, and with that goes UPD for similar reasons. Also, many psionic characters rarely get any use out of their psycraft rolls, while casters get all sorts of nifty info out of spellcraft, so increasing the transparency is a big gain for psions, and only a small gain for casters. And no one takes UPD, even if if they have it as class, and how often is a GM going to drop dorjes and psicrowns?
Also reduced transparency makes psionic characters into powerful glass cannons. Their powers are nigh indefatigable, and their defenses are naught but tissue paper.
I never liked the transparency rule.:smallyuk: I've always preferred the Psionics are different rule. With mages having access to some anti psionic magic and psions with some Anti magic psionics per that rule.
Also for VoP, you don't have to be Lawful good you can be NG or CG. Infact you could still be a crazy hobo. You just can't murder someone. However say if some bad guy was attacking the orphanage you were donating your piles of mangled loot to, then you could go open up a can of murder hobo on him.
Immabozo
2013-07-22, 01:40 PM
I never liked the transparency rule.:smallyuk: I've always preferred the Psionics are different rule. With mages having access to some anti psionic magic and psions with some Anti magic psionics per that rule.
Also for VoP, you don't have to be Lawful good you can be NG or CG. Infact you could still be a crazy hobo. You just can't murder someone. However say if some bad guy was attacking the orphanage you were donating your piles of mangled loot to, then you could go open up a can of murder hobo on him.
I agree, whole heartedly. Thank you. I'm gonna have to play this character at some point, I love the idea, of course refining and the DM's allowance would be required.
Thanks everybody for their help
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