CR my BBEG's beastie?

[Lord Sidereal]

Necreed is Mrun's familiar and as such all rules for a famaialr apply. It is a 5ft tall, floating skull wreathed in green fire, with two great emeralds set as eyes. It peresisntly chatters and is vicious in combat.


Necreed
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Inaitive: +11
Speed: 10ft (2 squares), 120ft fly (24 squares) good.
Armour Class: 42 (+8 Dex, +6 Magic, +34 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+30
Attack: 2 bites +25/ 1 butt +20
Full Attack: 3 slams +25
Special Attacks: Improved Grapple, spell like abilities, rend soul
Special Qualities: DR 20/silver or good, darkvision 100ft, flaming body (as Balor, but energy type is evil, not fire, also applies to slam attacks), SR 28,
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +21, Will +21
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 30

Combat Generally Mrun will have Necreed attack enemies whilst he casts to buff necreed and hamper his assailants. Necreed will generally attack and then fly out of range of its enemies' offensive capabilites.

Necreed's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Improved Grapple If Necreed succeeds in two bite attacks it can grapple as a free action with out provoking an AoO.

Rend Soul If Necreed scores a critical hit with a bite attack its opponent must make a successful DC 25 will save or be killed.

Spell Like Abilities: At will—blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—meteor swarm (DC 27). Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[erewhon]

Man, that's a FAMILIAR? :)

I'd say CR18, although without hitpoints or how much damage it does, who can guess, and the non-standard attack sequence is also a bit weird. It bites for regular attacks but slams for a full attack?

DR20 and SR 28 is pretty beeftastic, but it's easy to get around. (A simple potion of alchemical silver will do it, and any warrior worth his salt at that level has some of those in a Haversack. Wizards are less fortunate.)

This looks like a good first effort, but it needs work. For example, what CR do you WANT it to have? :D

[Lord Sidereal]

im not sure, i was thinking around 20. I was wondering if anyone could input of the hp as well, im not sure if i should make it REALLY tough or just reasonable amount of HP. It bite sbecuase then it can use Rend Soul.

thanks for the input, ill keep working on it. Any suggestions about improving/refining it etc?


Its a familair for a level 25 sorceror/25 cleric for an end-gmae to a campaign im writing.

[magic8BALL]

I'm going to keep a track of all things in my post. There's a lot to say about this monster.

Firstly, if it's actually a familiar, it has no CR of it's own, rather it's masters CR takes into account the presence of the familiar.

Secondly, according to Vorpal Tribble's method*, the thing has a CR of 24.

Thirdly, if it really IS a familiar, it would have exactly 1/2 the masters Hit Points.

Forthly, if it isn't really a Familiar, it would have 25d8+250 (362 hp), barring any feats like Toughness or Improved Toughness or the like...

...wich brings me to point 5: what are its feats?

And point 6: what are its Skills?

Hang on... point 7: what dose it do for damage? Sit there and laugh: "ha! ha! ha! I SOOO bit you!" (Im going to assume it has two mouths on one head too, cuz two bites and one head butt makes no sence. That was point 8)

Having picked 8 holes in it, I love the idea:
DM:
"the floating skull bites you, and drains your soul..."
Player:
"oh man... my contingency spell of true resurection kicks in"
DM:
"...what...?"
Player:
"Level 50. Big Bad Evil Guy. I expected to die at least once this encounter."

* http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313 (I actually change step one, as this beastie has 25 HD, so I divided average hit points by 6.5)

[Lord Sidereal]

haha thnks for the inoput. i was thinking 2d10+something (maybe 7) for bite damage and 3d8+something (maybe 10) for the slam. Like i say, tis a work in progress. It doesnt really need skills, as such, as it is a familiar. Feats... hmm, probably combative. ill get back to you on that one.

[Mauril Everleaf]

im still confused by the 2 bite attacks? does it really have 2 mouths? how is it grappling? it lacks everything but a head (or thats what im getting from the description) so im not sure how its grapple is much different than its bite, except it now loses an attack or two (depending on the number of mouths). seems really uber to me. but i would wait for Vorpal Tribble to check it out.

[belboz]

Sorry, this isn't about the familiar, but...
Isn't a 25/25 sorceror/cleric a bit of an odd build? I'd expect to see a Mystic Theurge at that point. 15/15/20 sorc/cleric/m.t. would be much more effective, no? That's CL 35 for both sorceror and cleric spells, in exchange for a few class features which don't increase as fast once you get to epic anyway, right?

I'm not suggesting that BBEGs need to be min/maxed to the hilt, but if you're allowing PrCs at all, taking two base classes up equally when there's a combo PrC for them is just an odd thing to do.

[Thomas]

Epic MT levels progress your divine caster levels alternatingly, not simultaneously.

So You'd probably want Sor20/Cle20/Mystic Theurge 10.

[Lord Sidereal]

hmmmm. another good point. Mrun's not really been fleshed out yet. I didnt realise that you could only make one bite attack per mouth (newbish mistake). Hmmmm. Maybe just one bite.

[Mewtarthio]

Necreed At will—blasphemy (DC 25)

Blasphemy has no saving throw. What's its caster level?

[fangthane]

With a beastie like this I'd have figured Mrun to be a True Necromancer... Not the weak version, the one who receives 9 levels of arcane caster and 9 levels of divine caster in the class' 10-level progression in non-epic levels. I hadn't paid much attention to how that pans out in epic though, so the Theurge might be better.

Fortunately, it's an outsider so the familiar is hardly a concern. Just a matter of time before it gets hit with an Epic Banishment.

Assuming its master has a +2 con bonus, this beastie will have roughly 140 hit points*, meaning that one round with a quality level 20 fighter will paste it. Perhaps two rounds. Assuming its master has a relatively high (for a caster type) +6 con bonus, it might have as many as about 240 hit points, meaning it might survive against the entire level 20 party for as much as a full round or two. Familiars are generally not all that useful in combat and the "half master's HP, rounded down" is a big part of why. Typical parties are going to know they're coming up against a BBEG and are going to research and prepare, so this guy's AC and SR, while impressive in and of themselves, aren't necessarily trumps to the party's ability to dust him fast. A level 20 fighter with a +10-ish strength and fairly standard feat selection has an attack bonus of nearly +40 (20+10+5+2 just going as far as Improved Focus) on his first attack, and can stock up on means to punch through that DR.

now that I've brutalised that aspect, let me go a bit further on what 8ball let you off on...
A familiar uses its master's BAB, period. In most cases that might be a bad thing but in your case the beastie's attack actually goes up. 25 levels of wizard gives a +12 or +13 or so, and the cleric levels give somewhat more since clerics get a better BAB progression. All of which unfortunately means Mrun has to be created before this familiar can be.

Its natural armor bonus should be equal to half its master's wizard level plus whatever base it receives; a +22 natural armor is slightly more than the average familiar gets, at level 1.

I hate to say it, but this guy looks some sort of mutant hodgepodge of a familiar and a demonic ally; the rules for familiars in 3.X don't really lend themselves to quite this kind of flexibility so however you slice it, there's a chance for massive imbalance.

*HP calculated assuming that cleric levels also count toward "master's HP" for familiars but that's unclear - so this might be 60% too high

[magic8BALL]

...hey anyone who has a familiar as a front line combatant should writ the XP off when initiative is rolled.

Familiars are suposed to be Invisable, as per the Greater Invisability spell, with their master, delivering the touch attacks on spells, while the master is well away from the PC's contolling hordes of minions. End.

alternative:
rouge: "there's the BBEG!"
cleric: "there's his minion!"
fighter: *slice*
BBEG: "crap... now im short of XP and cant Wish myself to 3 round earlier in 3 rounds time, thereby having two of me for the next 3 rounds and killing these pesky PC's... magic missile"

If he's a Wizard, have a plan. If he's a Necromancer, have that involve hundreds of undead.

[XtheYeti]

alternative:
rouge: "there's the BBEG!"
cleric: "there's his minion!"
fighter: *slice*
BBEG: "crap... now im short of XP and cant Wish myself to 3 round earlier in 3 rounds time, thereby having two of me for the next 3 rounds and killing these pesky PC's... magic missile"

If he's a Wizard, have a plan. If he's a Necromancer, have that involve hundreds of undead.
i agree with this guy, but by the way whats the damage for his bite and slams?

[fangthane]

Whoops, missed this last time despite having commented on its AC... what's 10 (base) +8+6+34? Last time I checked, that'd work out to a 58 ac or +48 - substantially more (by 50%) than the 42 total (+32) you've calculated...

Improved Grapple - makes no sense if it's a skull with just one mouth. It should either enable a grapple on any successful bite attack, or require some other form of attack plus a bite. As is, it makes no sense that one bite (the first) doesn't allow a grapple but after releasing and biting again, the grapple may be made.